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  1. #1
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    New Pivot Mach 4 SL

    Okay, it seems Pivot has developed a new cross country bike. Product presentation should be on 05/23. The bike should be quite revolutionary. What do you think?

    New Pivot Mach 4 SL-8b3b856f-9642-462d-b02a-2147e8bd2036.jpeg

  2. #2
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    Bold claims, looking forward to see what this is all about, hopefully not another downcountry bike. Any speculation?

  3. #3
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    Hope it's an SB100 esque XC bike. If so, I'll look forward to demo-ing one.

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    Yes I'm also interested to see what they do. I like my SL but it could do a couple things different to make it perfect.

  5. #5
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    Evolutionary, I'd be surprised if there's anything revolutionary. I mean, it's going to have two wheels, right?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  6. #6
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    Did some adjustments to the photo to try and tease out some details


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    Riding in lycra and sapphire slippers. Says a lot...

  8. #8
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    Which pixel?

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    Glad to hear of a new release of an XC bike. I'm sure they brought the design forward to be competitive. This is coming from someone who has 50+ races on the original green 429 carbon bike at just over 24lbs. It's been the most reliable bike I've owned.

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    Very excited about this. Iíve been waiting for a new DW link XC bike for quite a while. I hope this checks the other boxes for me (mainly something that has less than a 75deg sta...). Looks like the design will be more visually appealing than the ugly bike itís going to replace. One thing that stands out to me is it look like it has a pretty long seat tube.

  11. #11
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    Like no frame only option which makes it a zero to me.

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bogeydog View Post
    Like no frame only option which makes it a zero to me.

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    Why do you think this? Pivot sells frame/crank sets, until recently they didn't sell the super-boost this way, but now they do. All of their stuff is available this way. Why would it be any different for this?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Why do you think this? Pivot sells frame/crank sets, until recently they didn't sell the super-boost this way, but now they do. All of their stuff is available this way. Why would it be any different for this?
    I didn't know they have been selling frame only. That is good news.

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  14. #14
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    saw the video last week. 68.5 HT angle with 100mm fork , 74 ST , boost spacing, 29er only, high modulus carbon fiber frame, can get with a dropper and 120mm fork if desired. Also , same reach as the trail 429 and higher end models have fox live valve

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    Again 74 ST?

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    Because only the Worldcup edition kits of the new bike come with 100mm Fix 32 step cast forks and all the rest of the build kits with 120mm Fox 34 step-cast I meant that the geometry numbers mentioned in the video is for the 120mm version. Just my guess...

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    Quote Originally Posted by maettu View Post
    Because only the Worldcup edition kits of the new bike come with 100mm Fix 32 step cast forks and all the rest of the build kits with 120mm Fox 34 step-cast I meant that the geometry numbers mentioned in the video is for the 120mm version. Just my guess...
    I didn't catch that part, I though the 68.5 HT was with 100mm fork. Either way it will be a bada$$ bike

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mishkoln View Post
    Again 74 ST?
    What? That's a bit steeper, but it's also a short travel bike, so it doesn't need something like the ripmo, which is steeper to make it pedal like the shorter travel bikes-geometry uphill.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  19. #19
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    New Pivot Mach 4 SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    What? That's a bit steeper, but it's also a short travel bike, so it doesn't need something like the ripmo, which is steeper to make it pedal like the shorter travel bikes-geometry uphill.
    Apparently some people donít understand the difference between a 150mm bike at 35% sag and a 100mm bike at 20%.

    A 74 degree STA on a 100mm bike is probably steeper than a 76 or 77 degree STA on a big bike, on the same grade. People need need to stop advocating for a universal change like this. Particularly when it makes no sense.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Apparently some people donít understand the difference between a 150mm bike at 35% sag and a 100mm bike at 20%.

    A 74 degree STA on a 100mm bike is probably steeper than a 76 or 77 degree STA on a big bike, on the same grade. People need need to stop advocating for a universal change like this. Particularly when it makes no sense.


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    It is not just about a single number like seat tube angle though. ST steepening is happening in conjunction with extending the reach. It is for a more rider forward/centered position. So it needs to be a universal change if we are also moving the front of the bike out. I also wouldn't necessarily agree that a XC 100 millimeter bike should aim to be what a modern big bike is in climbing position which you suggest. I would like it in a More aggressive climbing position. Big bikes are just getting to a tolerable/comfortable place with a 76ļ/77ļ. I have 74ļ on my Hardtail and would be happy with 75ļ, but again it is a balancing act with reach, stem length etc.

  21. #21
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    If you watch the replay of Albstadt World Cup XC on Redbulltv, you can see a glimpse of the new bike being ridden by one of the Pivot OTE riders(blue kit). It's at the 25:58 mark of the video.

  22. #22
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    Sparky Moir has a picture of her racing hers during GJOR this last weekend on Strava.



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  23. #23
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    Bikerumor Podcast
    New Pivot to be released in only a few days.
    The wait is almost over.
    Great Chinese made carbon, with press fit BB (O'dear come on less move forward)
    Let's see if it's better than the last


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  24. #24
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    So what we know:

    74 degree seat angle
    PF BB
    New shock placement (similar to the Turner Czar)
    Long and slacker but not long and slack (podcast showed his CC opinions on the l/s movement)
    Seems to be a 100mm or 120mm option for the fork

    The one thing I cannot seem to find out is the rear hub spacing....148 or 157SB?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHSAD View Post
    So what we know:

    74 degree seat angle
    PF BB
    New shock placement (similar to the Turner Czar)
    Long and slacker but not long and slack (podcast showed his CC opinions on the l/s movement)
    Seems to be a 100mm or 120mm option for the fork

    The one thing I cannot seem to find out is the rear hub spacing....148 or 157SB?
    Video showed 148 boost spacing

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHSAD View Post
    So what we know:

    74 degree seat angle
    PF BB
    New shock placement (similar to the Turner Czar)
    Long and slacker but not long and slack (podcast showed his CC opinions on the l/s movement)
    Seems to be a 100mm or 120mm option for the fork

    The one thing I cannot seem to find out is the rear hub spacing....148 or 157SB?
    I'd bet on 148 for XC, given it's spec'd with a stepcast (100mm) fork.

    There's a pretty good photo out there from the GJ race. Looks great with the new design philosophy...hope they take that same route with the SB update.

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    For offset? 51 or 44?

  28. #28
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    pics on canadiancyclist from albstadt

  29. #29
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    Saw them, looks slimmed down. Def going to be lighter than the 429SL. Live valve featured on the WC bikes.

  30. #30
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    Well from the pictures posted in this thread I think its pretty clear it will be 100mm travel rear and take 120mm fork. Have 110mm/148mm spacing F/R. Have a 69.3 degree HT angle and a 72.25 degree ST angle with 44.83cm chainstays. And the size Large will have a 44.67cm reach an a 62.61cm stack. 29er of course.

    And it will be a singletrack shredding machine!

  31. #31
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    pic i found. we'll find out tomorrow i guess.

    New Pivot Mach 4 SL-capture11.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZDan View Post
    pic i found. we'll find out tomorrow i guess.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Interesting placement for the live valve box but I guess it makes sense. Pretty stoked for a live valve xc bike, I hope they make demos available...the 5.5 never was.

  33. #33
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    Mach 4 SL Video is now on the Pivot Website...
    https://www.pivotcycles.com/en/

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    Frame weight is better than expected, 4.2lbs. My first 429 (10 years ago) was something on the order of 7.2. Great starting point for a build. Nice job Pivot!

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    Looks like the only option w/o remote lockouts are the 2 low end Race specs (or Fox Live).

    How much of a pita will it be to lose the remote lockouts on the others? I don't need or want lockouts, just a shifter on one side and dropper remote on the other.

  36. #36
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    New Pivot Mach 4 SL

    My Large Mach 4 frame weights 2450g including shock, remote housing for the shock, and all covers, small screws and frame guards. But without rear axle and seat collar. Not too bad I would say...




  37. #37
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    New Pivot Mach 4 SL

    Yeti SB100 called and wants its geometry and XO1 build spec back...


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    Quote Originally Posted by maettu View Post
    My Large Mach 4 frame weights 2450g including shock, remote housing for the shock, and all covers, small screws and frame guards. But without rear axle and seat collar. Not too bad I would say...



    Assuming the axle is 100 gram, that means the L frame is 2550g complete which is 5.6lbs,a long way off the claimed weight.

    Pretty disappointing imo ...

  39. #39
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    lockouts. so many f#$%^& lockouts

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by a a r o n View Post
    lockouts. so many f#$%^& lockouts
    SC Blur territory, and one of the reasons I went with an SB100.


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  41. #41
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    Pinkbike First Ride:
    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-...mach-4-sl.html



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  42. #42
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    One of the dumbest things they specc'd. Seriously - a bike like this - ONE manual lockout model aside from the live valve ones would have been fine. Most of us don't need all that extra garbage hanging from the bars.

    And while we're complaining about it - get those 2.2 ardent race tires off of there.

    Seriously, the frame looks dreamy. But holy shit are there some swings and misses on the build spec. At the VERY least, offer the frame only without the lockout shock as an option. That doesn't appear to be the case. Bummer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by a a r o n View Post
    lockouts. so many f#$%^& lockouts
    Especially for a dw-link bike, not really necessary IMO. :-\

    So you get to pay for lockouts you don't want and then pay more to remove them and replace with manual levers. :-\

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    Checks many of the boxes but only way to not clutter your bars with extra levers is the pay up for Live Valve or spec down for the lower end complete? I always throught the DW design didn't need a lock out to be efficient? Pretty much every quality dropper lever is going to sit right in the spot the FOX remote lockout lever is going to be sitting.........ugh

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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Yeti SB100 called and wants its geometry and XO1 build spec back...


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    Pivot called them back and said ok as long as Yeti keeps their over-engineered creaky/flexy rear end to themselves...
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  46. #46
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    My wife and I got ours last Wednesday and already had a chance to both race them and get some decent trail time on them. We're stoked!

    I was up until about 2:30am that night building them up! The following two days I rode with the media Pivot gathered for their launch, which happened to be in my backyard (Fruita). We did about twenty miles on Thursday and Friday and I raced the Grand Junction Off-road 30-miler on Saturday morning. I managed to snag 5th in Open at that race despite having VERY tired legs (I'd also raced the Desert Rats 100k the previous weekend on my Les). I feel super comfortable on the bike already and will be toeing the line again this weekend at the Gunnison Growler.

    I was skeptical of the lockout at first (ours have the DPS with push-to-unlock) but I gotta say, now I'm digging it. For sure, it's not entirely needed, but it's very useful for racing. It also seems like it's allowed them to go very plush on the shock tune in the open position, it handles technical descents much better than the previous model.

    Happy to answer any questions y'all have! I haven't weighed it, I haven't even looked at the geometry TBH. I'm 6'1" and on an XL with a 60mm stem. 120mm MRP Ribbon SL fork. Enve and XTR 12spd.

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  47. #47
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    When not opting for the Fox Live. Will it be possible to have the rear shock inverted? I hate to have it upside down.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmanInTheD View Post
    Pivot called them back and said ok as long as Yeti keeps their over-engineered creaky/flexy rear end to themselves...



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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by kk2 View Post
    When not opting for the Fox Live. Will it be possible to have the rear shock inverted? I hate to have it upside down.
    FYI. There is no right side up or down with sealed suspension units like the FOX DPS. Aesthetically I know what you mean, it looks upside down. But function wise, the shock doesnít care what direction it is in.

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    Noah, any pics of your set up with the DPS set up with your bar-lever area?

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post



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    haha I thought that was kinda harsh maybe but glad you took it well! I love Pivot AND Yeti, great for them to push each other. I might like Ibis best, though. This new Mach 4 is calling my name but I'm afraid I fall right in between their sizes now, so...
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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHSAD View Post
    Noah, any pics of your set up with the DPS set up with your bar-lever area?
    I'm using a KS Lev and happened to have one of the OG vertical levers. Works well for this application. On my wife's build I installed the shock remote above the bar on the right side (no pics of that on hand).

    New Pivot Mach 4 SL-img_2050.jpg
    New Pivot Mach 4 SL-img_2052.jpg

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  53. #53
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    So who's going to be the first to add a Fox 36, some DHF's, and Down Country this thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    So who's going to be the first to add a Fox 36, some DHF's, and Down Country this thing?
    No 36, but mine has the 35mm-stanchioned MRP Ribbon SL and a Maxxis DHR in the front (Rekon rear).

    I'll probably downcountry it even further after these next two XC races...

    The only KOMs I've gotten with it so far are downhill segments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmanInTheD View Post
    haha I thought that was kinda harsh maybe but glad you took it well! I love Pivot AND Yeti, great for them to push each other. I might like Ibis best, though. This new Mach 4 is calling my name but I'm afraid I fall right in between their sizes now, so...
    It's all good! I love Pivot, and have two LES' (one geared; one SS, which I utterly love), and am definitely interested in this bike, but I've got an SB100 coming, and I can't get the same deals on Pivots that I can on certain other brands, making Pivot too pricey for me...at least for a new bike.
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  56. #56
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    Walt, something similar happened to me last year. After much thought planning and testing I dropped money on a New Epic. Not 2 days later Santa Cruz launched the new Blur. Damn if it did not tick off all my boxes I was looking for, but too late. Already the Epic was on the way. So just said f-it. I am going to stay with the Epic and not even think about Blur. Is it better than my Epic? Don't know and don't care.

    I would do the same with the SB100. Is the Mach 4 better? Who cares? Your SB100 will still be as good now as when you choose to buy it.
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    Looks sick! Thanks for the pics. Just got the sweet new shimano dropper lever for my 429 SL all set up. To bad it won't work with the Fox remote.....I'm also not sure how it would all configure with the 9100 brake levers.....How does the shock tune compare to the 429 SL?

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post
    No 36, but mine has the 35mm-stanchioned MRP Ribbon SL and a Maxxis DHR in the front (Rekon rear).

    I'll probably downcountry it even further after these next two XC races...

    The only KOMs I've gotten with it so far are downhill segments.
    Itís pretty awesome where these short travel bikes are going. One bike with say two sets of wheels will cover a lot of different terrain and riding styles. Good to also see that Pivot didnít jump the shark with their geometry either.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Walt, something similar happened to me last year. After much thought planning and testing I dropped money on a New Epic. Not 2 days later Santa Cruz launched the new Blur. Damn if it did not tick off all my boxes I was looking for, but too late. Already the Epic was on the way. So just said f-it. I am going to stay with the Epic and not even think about Blur. Is it better than my Epic? Don't know and don't care.

    I would do the same with the SB100. Is the Mach 4 better? Who cares? Your SB100 will still be as good now as when you choose to buy it.
    Similar, but even if I hadnít pulled the trigger on the Yeti, I wouldnít be in a position to afford the same level build, with carbon/I9 wheels, on the Mach 4 because I canít get the same/any discount on the Pivot, nor a good trade-in value on my Primer. So the math just wouldnít work out regardless of how I felt about the Mach 4. Not to mention some nits with the Mach 4, like the remotes on both front and rear suspension (which is one of the reasons I didnít get the Blur).

    All in all, Iím thrilled with the SB100, and am not looking back...


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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by wfl3 View Post
    Especially for a dw-link bike, not really necessary IMO.
    No.

    At the highest levels of racing, absolutely necessary.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by kk2 View Post
    When not opting for the Fox Live. Will it be possible to have the rear shock inverted? I hate to have it upside down.
    The orientation of the shock as pictured is better functionally, as in less unsprung weight. It's the optimal position for a shock.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHSAD View Post
    Checks many of the boxes but only way to not clutter your bars with extra levers is the pay up for Live Valve or spec down for the lower end complete? I always throught the DW design didn't need a lock out to be efficient? Pretty much every quality dropper lever is going to sit right in the spot the FOX remote lockout lever is going to be sitting.........ugh
    Maybe. The rear shock lockout is always the bugger to actuate IME. Crappy stock fork tunes are to blame for a lot of the fork movement, but once you custom tune that, you don't tend to need the front lockout "as much" and IMO, it's easier to get at than the rear shock most of the time, and really I'd want the rear shock as a remote more than anything to turn off and on, the fork can come secondary once I'm established on some smoother terrain. In fact I recently ran a remote on my 429SL for this very purpose.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    The orientation of the shock as pictured is better functionally, as in less unsprung weight. It's the optimal position for a shock.
    ^^^^
    Yep

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    No.

    At the highest levels of racing, absolutely necessary.
    How many of these are going to be sold to the highest levels of racers? I guess all of them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wfl3 View Post
    How many of these are going to be sold to the highest levels of racers? I guess all of them?
    Then get a 429 trail. This is the new XC racing rig.

    I'm so glad that we are out of the 90s where if you wanted to ride any FS bike, you had to ride the company's XC racing FS bike, you literally had no choice. Now you have several travel (and wheelsize) choices, but this one is intended to be the balls-out fastest race bike. It's no surprise that it's build with that goal. Even not surprising they are running two lockouts, although unnecessary for the front IMO. It's not a SB100, which is marketed as a "plus" XC bike, the equivalent would still be the Trail IMO. This is a pared down racing rig.

    While not everyone is going to be racing at the highest levels, it's much more common that everyone shopping for this bike is going to be looking for every advantage possible.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Like I said, I guess all of them. ;-)

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    Chloe just won the WC short track in Nove Mesto on the new M4SL! Guess the "upside down" shock and lockouts didn't bother her.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post
    Chloe just won the WC short track in Nove Mesto on the new M4SL! Guess the "upside down" shock and lockouts didn't bother her.
    Based on the pics of her bike she's running Fox Live Valve. So no lever lockouts.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by stom_m3 View Post
    Based on the pics of her bike she's running Fox Live Valve. So no lever lockouts.
    I know, I was just joking about the nit-picks re: the bike spec in this thread.

    Doubtful that she'd complain about remote lockouts anyway since she has no dropper.

    Bike looks wild in XS

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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post
    Bike looks wild in XS

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    It is amazing to me how much they were able to fit inside the front triangle.

    If I had any kind of play money at all, this bike would be on my short list... but in XL. I had an OG Mach 429, and loved that bike for its pedaling ability and stiffness (and it was a 135mm QR rear!) Had a soft spot for Pivots since then, and this bike isn't helping dimish that at all!

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    Wondering if any of you who have this bike, had or rode the 429sl before. If so, can you comment on the difference between the two of them?

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    Chloe literally destroyed the field on lap 7 of 9 and never looked back. She looked to be running some pretty narrow tires on this rig compared to some others in the field. Great job TEAM USA !


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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by a a r o n View Post
    lockouts. so many f#$%^& lockouts


    Quote Originally Posted by CHSAD View Post
    Checks many of the boxes but only way to not clutter your bars with extra levers is the pay up for Live Valve or spec down for the lower end complete? I always throught the DW design didn't need a lock out to be efficient? Pretty much every quality dropper lever is going to sit right in the spot the FOX remote lockout lever is going to be sitting.........ugh
    Thanks for your opinions and expertise. Having done a TON of research on this type of bike internationally, the conclusion we came to is that the bike is simply not sell-able in a huge number of international markets without the remote lockout.

    Quote Originally Posted by a a r o n View Post
    One of the dumbest things they specc'd. Seriously - a bike like this - ONE manual lockout model aside from the live valve ones would have been fine. Most of us don't need all that extra garbage hanging from the bars.

    And while we're complaining about it - get those 2.2 ardent race tires off of there.

    Seriously, the frame looks dreamy. But holy shit are there some swings and misses on the build spec. At the VERY least, offer the frame only without the lockout shock as an option. That doesn't appear to be the case. Bummer.
    Appreciate your opinion and advice. Between the 3 colors, 5 sizes, and myriad build kits/options, there are already more than 360 possible configurations for this one bike in our lineup. As much as we'd like to supply the absolute perfect bike for YOU and every other conceivable customer on the planet, even we have our limits. Fortunately, our huge network of global dealers are there to help everyone get the perfect build for themselves.

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  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by John P. View Post
    Thanks for your opinions and expertise. Having done a TON of research on this type of bike internationally, the conclusion we came to is that the bike is simply not sell-able in a huge number of international markets without the remote lockout.



    Appreciate your opinion and advice. Between the 3 colors, 5 sizes, and myriad build kits/options, there are already more than 360 possible configurations for this one bike in our lineup. As much as we'd like to supply the absolute perfect bike for YOU and every other conceivable customer on the planet, even we have our limits. Fortunately, our huge network of global dealers are there to help everyone get the perfect build for themselves.

    JP
    With all due respect, I just think it was a bad call. International markets, I get that. World Cup racers, I get that too. But I look around at what everybody is riding and I look at the geometry of this bike, and I can't fathom that there aren't a WHOLE LOT of people who are in the same boat. I understand there's a lot of sku's to manage and that selling bikes with a lot of options is hard, but I think it would be a real shame if you guys didn't add one more spec option. Even if it was a frame-only option where you can pick between either/or on the shock type. That only adds ONE more possible "build kit" and it's as simple as two bolts, switch, done. Having to source another shock immediately for a brand new frame (and hope that the tune is okay or have it re-tuned) is a massive inconvenience for every average person looking at this frame who doesn't care for the lockout.

    Kudos to you guys on the launch. It's clearly going to be an extremely popular bike. And by all accounts, the execution of everything it does have going for it is dialed. Just try not to ignore the big group of us who really really don't have a use for the lockout/s. I know I'm not alone. This bike would be an XC racer for me. But it would also be a weekly trail rider, occasional out-of-town small mountain rig, some endurance races, etc. The Trail 429 is simply way too much bike for half of what I'm doing. And I REALLY want a pivot again.


    TLDR: Please just offer the frame-only in a non-lockout version at least. There are tons of us who would prefer it that way and we're all not wrong for our own varying reasons.

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    John P,

    Thanks for the response to my total opinion and non-expertise based comment on the forum. I am sure Pivot as a whole has done a TON of research and the bike is dialed as heck. I can for sure say that one will be in my garage and on my local trails at some point

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    Iíd have to agree. Frame-only with non remote option would be what I would get for my daughter. Iíll be ordering one, but will try to get the shock down-specced through the local distributor.


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    Perhaps I should explain my perspective.

    I bought a Mach 4 carbon for my middle daughter about a year ago, because it was the only 27.5Ē short to mid travel full suspension bike in the market with a virtual/translating pivot/dual link design in the market, with class leading stand over clearance.

    Anything with more than 4Ē of travel would have been overkill for my daughter, yet I wanted her to have the benefit of full suspension, but without having the complication of lockouts, remotes, etc.

    Now, it looks like there are NO 27.5Ē short to mid travel bikes in that class anymore. Which is fine, if the 29Ē bikes like the new Mach 4 SL provides good stand over clearance even with the bigger wheels.

    Now that my youngest daughter will soon stop growing, Iíll be looking to get something for her as well. The short list of candidates is very short: Mach 4 SL or SB100. Given the issues that the latter has experienced, Iím leaning towards the Pivot.

    Not because my daughter is an elite level XC racer, but rather because Pivot still makes a frame with class leading stand over height for smaller riders, in a short to mid travel frame with efficient suspension kinematics that is effectively set and forget for all-round riding.

    I suspect there is a vast number of riders out there, who if they are honest with themselves, will find that 5Ē of travel is overkill for their riding.

    Pivot is missing a trick by not providing a frame only option without a lockout remote.


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    You guys who really donít want the lockout can send the fork and shock to fox to have it converted for a couple hundred bucks. Or have your local shop do it.

    Lockouts are real nice though. And for those of you wondering DW link or not lockouts bob a LOT less when you are standing and climbing or sprinting... anytime you are out of the saddle. Even seated and pedaling itís a bit firmer thing you are pushing into so on smooth sections it feels a bit easier to make power and is still slightly more efficient.

  80. #80
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    ^^No one wants(or should have to)spend an additional $200+on top of the frame cost to send the shock to Fox. Hopefully Pivot realizes this and stocks the 3 position shock as an option for apparently US customers. It should be an option, just like the DPX2 is on some of Pivots other bikes.

    Itís been mentioned many times that potential customers passed on the Blur for this vary reason.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chicane32 View Post
    ^^No one wants(or should have to)spend an additional $200+on top of the frame cost to send the shock to Fox. Hopefully Pivot realizes this and stocks the 3 position shock as an option for apparently US customers. It should be an option, just like the DPX2 is on some of Pivots other bikes.

    Itís been mentioned many times that potential customers passed on the Blur for this vary reason.
    And no customer wants or should have to spend 200+ to get a lockout installed. That was my biggest gripe(besides from standover/seat tube height) with my 429sl. It's my race bike and there are times when I want to lock out the front and rear and it's a PITA having to switch two levers to do it. The only times I ever used it was on smooth fireroad climbs because I had to take my hands off the bars to use it. Once I get this bike, I imagine myself using the lockout more times than I can count in a race.

    This is marketed as a race bike and it makes sense to have a remote lockout. If you look at Scott and Trek, it's the same. Their full suspension XC race bikes have remote lockouts.

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    WC race only bike yada, yada, yada.

    Yeah, I see loads of those guys lining up with droppers and 120mm forks. :-\

    Will be a really sweet bike for the lockout fans tho, hope they sell a ton of them.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by litany View Post
    You guys who really donít want the lockout can send the fork and shock to fox to have it converted for a couple hundred bucks. Or have your local shop do it.

    Lockouts are real nice though. And for those of you wondering DW link or not lockouts bob a LOT less when you are standing and climbing or sprinting... anytime you are out of the saddle. Even seated and pedaling itís a bit firmer thing you are pushing into so on smooth sections it feels a bit easier to make power and is still slightly more efficient.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mucker View Post
    And no customer wants or should have to spend 200+ to get a lockout installed. That was my biggest gripe(besides from standover/seat tube height) with my 429sl. It's my race bike and there are times when I want to lock out the front and rear and it's a PITA having to switch two levers to do it. The only times I ever used it was on smooth fireroad climbs because I had to take my hands off the bars to use it. Once I get this bike, I imagine myself using the lockout more times than I can count in a race.

    This is marketed as a race bike and it makes sense to have a remote lockout. If you look at Scott and Trek, it's the same. Their full suspension XC race bikes have remote lockouts.
    It's already a spendy frame. It's easy to suggest "just send the shock off" if you're on the pro-lockout side.

    What I'm just as concerned with is that because lockouts are across the range, is the shock tuned to be more plush in open mode? If so, this means tweaking the shim stack as well, which Fox is obviously capable of - but I'd trust Pivot's long test history with knowing what works best from the start. John P - since there is one 3 position shock at the bottom of the range, is it tuned differently? And can Fox supply that tune in a new shock at a customer's request.


    And Mucker - You're absolutely right. For you. I'm not (and I don't think anybody else is either) advocating for ALL of the models to be non-lockout. Just give us an option. I'm not sure why all the pro-lockout crew is so defensive of the spec range. You guys got what you want. I'm sincerely happy for you and I don't want to take it away. I just want to let Pivot know there is another customer group looking for something different in hopes that we might get what we want too down the road.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by a a r o n View Post
    ...
    And Mucker - You're absolutely right. For you. I'm not (and I don't think anybody else is either) advocating for ALL of the models to be non-lockout. Just give us an option. I'm not sure why all the pro-lockout crew is so defensive of the spec range. You guys got what you want. I'm sincerely happy for you and I don't want to take it away. I just want to let Pivot know there is another customer group looking for something different in hopes that we might get what we want too down the road.
    This right here. Not sure why they wouldn't just offer all the WC builds with lockouts and the 120mm builds sans lockouts? Why put droppers on the WC builds for that matter? Looks like they have the 2 "race" builds without lockouts, but I'd guess most people looking at this bike would like a higher spec or frame only.

    Upside is there are a lot of players in this space now so we should all be able to find a good fit. Some of us DW fans are just a bit disappointed, but I'm sure we'll survive. :-)

  85. #85
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    First of all, I love this bike, and I love Pivots. I have two LESí - one SS; one geared. Iíd love to add this as my FS bike.í

    However...

    Iíve got an SB100 on order, and had narrowed that choice down to the Yeti or the SC Blur TR. One of the reasons I went with the Yeti was the remote lockouts on the Blur. I want the manual, 3-pos levers for this bike.

    I get the remote lockouts...for a dedicated race whip, and for other applications. I have a remote lockout on my LES SS (2019 Fox 34SC), and I use it *ALL* the time, given all the standing climbing on my SS. It makes sense.

    But Iím not looking for a dedicated race whip; if I was, I would like the lockouts. I was looking for a short-travel FS rig (120/100-ish) to do ďsomeĒ racing on (stage, 12/24-hour solo, marathon), but also to act as my ďtrail bikeĒ and ďfun bikeĒ...and those latter two uses will be the majority of my riding. And for those uses, I strongly prefer the manual, 3-pos levers. Iíd hazard to guess that most/many buyers also fall into those categories.

    I agree with the previous posters; I donít need to see a build without the lockouts, but would like to see a frame offered with a non-lockout shock. Seems reasonable to me.


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    Great to see Pivot rerouted the rear derail cable to no longer go below the bottom bracket. Hopefully this transfers to their other frames as well.

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    I don't love the idea of additional levers and cables either so can't they just be removed.

  88. #88
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    If you really don't want the lockout you and just rig it up with a short bit of cable and set it to fully open at all times. I had to do this when I accidently botched the cable install in my wife's remote at 2am the day before the media launch.

    I wish I had a counter on my remote, I probably used it two hundred times during the Gunnison Half Growler this weekend. My wife has never had a bike with a remote lockout before and now she says she wants them on every bike. She won the full Growler (68 miles and 8,800' of climbing) on Sunday on the Mach 4 SL!

    I actually wish I had a remote lockout on my Firebird 29 for enduro racing!
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  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post
    If you really don't want the lockout you and just rig it up with a short bit of cable and set it to fully open at all times. I had to do this when I accidently botched the cable install in my wife's remote at 2am the day before the media launch.

    I wish I had a counter on my remote, I probably used it two hundred times during the Gunnison Half Growler this weekend. My wife has never had a bike with a remote lockout before and now she says she wants them on every bike. She won the full Growler (68 miles and 8,800' of climbing) on Sunday on the Mach 4 SL!

    I actually wish I had a remote lockout on my Firebird 29 for enduro racing!
    I actually considered this but ultimately don't think I would be happy with it at all. I think it would be the worst of all the options - then I would only have one functional shock setting.

    I'm an "expert" class XC racer. I'm usually mid pack. Maybe won't ever be any more than that. Lockouts won't make any difference in my racing outcome almost every time. I lose races by minutes, not seconds. But for this bike, I'll also ride it on the road to some trails. I'll want it fully locked for that, but then when I'm actually on the trail I just don't want to fiddle with it.

    I also think I'd really miss the middle position of the shock. My last full suspension frame had a 3 position and I chose to race in the middle position occasionally or even trail ride if the terrain was smoother but I still wanted movement on larger hits and support on g-outs.

    At the end of the day, I really do find all 3 positions of the shock useful, I don't like extra bar and cable clutter, and I'm not a "serious" enough racer to be looking for a few seconds a lap of extra speed so there's no reason for the lockouts for me. And they're a performance loss for me since I lose the middle position. I guess I just don't have a good thing to say about them --- unless I bought two of these bikes. If I was in that kind of position, I would totally do a world cup build, rigid post, full lockouts, lightest tires, etc. Then I would race that bike and build a second up with meatier tires, 120mm fork, dropper, etc....but I still wouldn't want lockouts on that one.

  90. #90
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    Nice looking addition! But my feeling is that Pivot should have kept the 429SL in the lineup. The 429SL as a plus bike is incredible. This is no longer an option. I'll be keeping mine for some time to come. I haven't found anything that can compete in the same category.
    Anyway, good luck to Pivot. The 429SL was not really a xc racer anyway..

  91. #91
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    While offering a rough sizing guideline on Pivotís FAQs, it appears the large frame will fit someone slightly shorter at 178cm (5í10Ē). See link below:

    https://dirtragmag.com/articles/pivo...-sl-first-ride

    This is reportedly using a 60mm stem with 760mm wide handlebars.
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  92. #92
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    NoahColorad,

    I'll give the lockouts a try on the demo see and keep an open mind.

    Thanks,

    EDventure

  93. #93
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    Me too...

    And IĎm working on removing the travel spacer in the rear shock.

    Quote Originally Posted by edbraunbeck View Post
    NoahColorad,

    I'll give the lockouts a try on the demo see and keep an open mind.

    Thanks,

    EDventure

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    Looking forward to reading some ride experiences with the new bike, especially the lock out version. Kudos to Pivot for having them available when the embargo was lifted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edbraunbeck View Post
    NoahColorad,

    I'll give the lockouts a try on the demo see and keep an open mind.

    Thanks,

    EDventure
    I come from riding a long line of Epics and just recently switched over to a Spark RC. I had very similar concerns with flipping levers. That said, I've now had it for 5 months and I don't find it a burden to push levers. Assuming that you have a supportive suspension to start with, which the DW is, it's not really an issue. I find it more annoying when the levers don't completely lock out the suspension.

    I'm really interested in the Pivot M4SL but I think they missed the boat on pricing. Spark RC w/ XX1 $6200, M4SL w/ XX1 $8800. Granted the M4SL comes with DT XRC wheels but that doesn't add that much to the price. I'd like my next bike to come with both SRAM AXS and Fox Live Valve. Hoping I don't have to pay $10k to get it.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by WheelieWonka View Post
    The 429SL was not really a xc racer anyway..
    Explain. That truly makes no sense. Just because it wasnít as light as some newer bikes that came out after?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  97. #97
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    Another review, comparisons made with the Yeti SB100.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmYVY3zOPe8
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    Sounds like availability is pretty nonexistent on these eh. Bummer. Was going to buy a frame and fork.

    Also saw they are not di2 compatible... Wonder why they didn't just add the holes. They kept the battery port.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildh View Post
    Sounds like availability is pretty nonexistent on these eh. Bummer. Was going to buy a frame and fork.

    Also saw they are not di2 compatible... Wonder why they didn't just add the holes. They kept the battery port.
    I've heard the initial run is pretty much sold out, or at least, allocated.
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    Was what I was told as well.

  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildh View Post
    Was what I was told as well.
    Though Competitive Cyclist has the top-end build available for $10K+...
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  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    I've heard the initial run is pretty much sold out, or at least, allocated.
    Don't tell me that. I have two potential buyers for my 429sl.

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    Local dealer told me he could get me one in 24 hours on Tuesday for MSRP. That may have changed since then?

  104. #104
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    Design Question


    What does the change in the shock mount do for the kinematics of the suspension? Leverage ratio, linear vs more progressive etc..?

    Was the change specifically for the change in the above characteristics or was it more to compensate (secondary) for the change in geometry itself?

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by pwalkerttu1 View Post
    Design Question


    What does the change in the shock mount do for the kinematics of the suspension? Leverage ratio, linear vs more progressive etc..?

    Was the change specifically for the change in the above characteristics or was it more to compensate (secondary) for the change in geometry itself?
    Excellent question!

    Maybe for Fox Live Wire and/or water bottle configuration?

    Inquiring minds want to know

  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by pwalkerttu1 View Post
    Design Question


    What does the change in the shock mount do for the kinematics of the suspension? Leverage ratio, linear vs more progressive etc..?

    Was the change specifically for the change in the above characteristics or was it more to compensate (secondary) for the change in geometry itself?
    It changes nothing with kinematics.

    The main thing it does is allow us to have thinner tubes, since we no longer have to strengthen the top tube for the shock mount - the other design required the addition of materials adding weight. It allowed us to provide better clearance for water bottles, now an XL frame can fit two water bottles, and the XS can fit a large bottle.
    "The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face".
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  107. #107
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    Hey Noah, do you have approximate weight of your XL build and/or pics of the two bottle configuration? I'm picking on you because of your frame size. Much appreciated sir.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dan23 View Post
    It changes nothing with kinematics.

    The main thing it does is allow us to have thinner tubes, since we no longer have to strengthen the top tube for the shock mount - the other design required the addition of materials adding weight. It allowed us to provide better clearance for water bottles, now an XL frame can fit two water bottles, and the XS can fit a large bottle.
    You seem to be a good person ask this question. If a person wanted to run di2, how would you recommend routing the wires to the rear der?

  109. #109
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    You'd have to be very creative...
    We haven't messed with it, since there is no plan for 12 speed Di2 that we know of.

    There is a port for the FOX LIVE battery under the top tube, you could run the wire out, then down the seat tube towards the RT where there are ports for cable housing. That will be a long cable, not sure where you would put the Di2 battery either.

    The other option would be to do something silly that could jeopardize your warranty, so I won't suggest it.
    "The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face".
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan23 View Post
    You'd have to be very creative...
    We haven't messed with it, since there is no plan for 12 speed Di2 that we know of.

    There is a port for the FOX LIVE battery under the top tube, you could run the wire out, then down the seat tube towards the RT where there are ports for cable housing. That will be a long cable, not sure where you would put the Di2 battery either.

    The other option would be to do something silly that could jeopardize your warranty, so I won't suggest it.
    Just looking at the pictures on the website I think it wouldn't be too hard to use the cable housing ports on the drive side. Wires would snake around a bit, but that's not a big deal. Just would need to find away to make sure they don't swing into the drivetrain. I'd bet there are some small adhesive housing retention things or there that a person could zip tie them to.

    Is that bolt area on the bottom not an internal battery port like on the 429sl? If not, I suppose jamming it in the seat post like a road bike would work.

    I only ask this all because I just put di2 on my 429sl last fall and would consider just a frame upgrade (but that doesn't sound promising from an availability standpoint).

  111. #111
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    There is a similar opening at the bottom, but no official battery mount...

    We do offer port clamps specific for wires, so it would retain the wires better in the RT. But like I said, we haven't messed around with this at all, so I'm not sure I'm helping you much.

    I do know that people have mounted Di2 on our old Mach 429 Trail, and that bike had zero ports for Di2. So, being creative on how you want to run wires will be key.
    "The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face".
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  112. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan23 View Post
    There is a similar opening at the bottom, but no official battery mount...

    We do offer port clamps specific for wires, so it would retain the wires better in the RT. But like I said, we haven't messed around with this at all, so I'm not sure I'm helping you much.

    I do know that people have mounted Di2 on our old Mach 429 Trail, and that bike had zero ports for Di2. So, being creative on how you want to run wires will be key.
    You're helping actually. I think it'd be pretty easy. I don't use a dropper so just would mount the battery in the seat post like we do with a lot of road bikes, drop a wire to a B junction box in the BB, then route a wire through the drive side housing ports to the RD. If you make port covers that pinch down a touch one wire, then that would work fine likely.

    Probably a 20 min job.

    Now just need to find a bike. Lol.

    BTW... Thanks for making great machines. I've ridden the crap out of and thoroughly enjoyed my 429sl and have never had a problem (other than a ticking BB which I fixed with a wheels manufacturing threaded BB).

  113. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan23 View Post
    There is a similar opening at the bottom, but no official battery mount...

    We do offer port clamps specific for wires, so it would retain the wires better in the RT. But like I said, we haven't messed around with this at all, so I'm not sure I'm helping you much.

    I do know that people have mounted Di2 on our old Mach 429 Trail, and that bike had zero ports for Di2. So, being creative on how you want to run wires will be key.
    One more quotation for ya... How is the clearance on the non drive side crank arm and rear chain stay? Would I be able to run an xtr crank and stages PM?

  114. #114
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    Taylor Lideen uses a Shimano Boost crank with a Stages PM...
    Enjoy the new bike!
    "The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face".
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  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildh View Post
    One more quotation for ya... How is the clearance on the non drive side crank arm and rear chain stay? Would I be able to run an xtr crank and stages PM?
    I run the new Shimano MT900 cranks with a Stages PM on a XT8000 left arm on mine, no problem.
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  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlienSP View Post
    Hey Noah, do you have approximate weight of your XL build and/or pics of the two bottle configuration? I'm picking on you because of your frame size. Much appreciated sir.
    Between 20 and 30 lbs. approximately.

    No, for real, I don't like to weigh bikes because I don't find that it matters. I try to be conscious of picking light, durable parts, but once everything is all together I don't like to know. I feel like (for me) it becomes an excuse. I'm too big to go too light on wheels and tires, which is about the only place I really think it matters much. I wish I could run 1,100 gram wheels with Maxxis Maxxlites, but I'd probably puncture just getting to the trail!

    I've got Enve's lightest MTB wheels, M6 bar, Syntace stem with ti bolts, our lightest fork (the Ribbon SL), new XTR 9100 drivetrain (even went 10-45 vs. 10-51 for weight), and classic XTR 985 brakes (with ti bolts), so I'm not sure where I could really go meaningfully lighter anyway. I guess I could get a carbon rigid post, but I'd rather not.

    As for the bottles, I'll try some configurations and post up pics tonight! I'm just running one cage kinda in the middle at the moment.

    Cheers!
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    Any of you that have a little time on this bike also ride a LES? I love the way my LES fits and haven't been able to get some of the new bikes with steeper seat tube angles to feel the same. The M4sl has a slightly steeper seat tube than the LES but not quite as steep as some other bikes in the same category. For example when I ride an sb100 the reach and stack numbers are identical to my LES but I feel like the saddle is directly above the BB, thus the cockpit length is the same just shifted forward. For reference, I ride a size large LES with a 90mm stem. I'm a little over 6' with 34.5" inseam

  118. #118
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    Wondering how long it will take to get the new Shimano 12spd XT stuff on the XT/XTR build.
    That would be the perfect bike for me.

  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post
    Between 20 and 30 lbs. approximately.

    No, for real, I don't like to weigh bikes because I don't find that it matters. I try to be conscious of picking light, durable parts, but once everything is all together I don't like to know. I feel like (for me) it becomes an excuse. I'm too big to go too light on wheels and tires, which is about the only place I really think it matters much. I wish I could run 1,100 gram wheels with Maxxis Maxxlites, but I'd probably puncture just getting to the trail!

    As for the bottles, I'll try some configurations and post up pics tonight! I'm just running one cage kinda in the middle at the moment.

    Cheers!
    Thank you sir, any help is appreciated.
    Given my size, I run the lightest/durable combo I can on my 429C (Syntace cockpit, Enve wheels), but of course I want my geared bike to feel like my singlespeed through the trees. I can also fit two bottles on my XL sized SS, that's where my questions on the M4SL bottle fitment were originating.

  120. #120
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    I saw an M4SL in person yesterday. A buddy got the first one into our local shop.

    Wow. What a beautiful frame. Attention to detail, cable management, structure, aesthetic, it's all dialed.

    It's probably the most impressive production carbon bicycle frame I've ever observed.

    The only criticism he had of it was the fairly large open hole in the down tube where the lockout cable feeds into the frame - looks like a great place for mud and water to get into the frame pretty easily. When I buy one of these frames, i'll be flipping the shock right side up and taping that hole off.

    The frame just looks tiny. He previously had a Mach429SL and both the old bike and new one were in Medium size. Having briefly tested both of his, his old 429SL with 90mm stem and 100mm fork felt tiny to me....like a clown bike. The new M4SL in medium with a 75mm stem and 120mm fork felt small, but not even close to as small as the 429. I'm pretty sure I'll still go with a large, just like my LES, but it'll have to have a pretty short stem I think.

    Lastly, I did pedal around on the M4SL briefly...just the areas on my property that I know how other bikes feel. I've confirmed....no need or desire for lockout. It's plenty stiff in open mode. Pivot - please make frames available with standard 3-position shocks.

    dgregorie - I ride a LES in size large. There's a Pivot demo near me this Saturday and their website says they're supposed to have the M4SL in multiple sizes. I'm going to try and go - and ride the medium and large back to back to give some input. Based on my quick experience noted above, if you're a roughly 5'11" person, it may well depend on your extremities and cockpit preferences to decide between medium and large.

  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by a a r o n View Post
    I saw an M4SL in person yesterday. A buddy got the first one into our local shop.

    Wow. What a beautiful frame. Attention to detail, cable management, structure, aesthetic, it's all dialed.

    It's probably the most impressive production carbon bicycle frame I've ever observed.

    The only criticism he had of it was the fairly large open hole in the down tube where the lockout cable feeds into the frame - looks like a great place for mud and water to get into the frame pretty easily. When I buy one of these frames, i'll be flipping the shock right side up and taping that hole off.

    The frame just looks tiny. He previously had a Mach429SL and both the old bike and new one were in Medium size. Having briefly tested both of his, his old 429SL with 90mm stem and 100mm fork felt tiny to me....like a clown bike. The new M4SL in medium with a 75mm stem and 120mm fork felt small, but not even close to as small as the 429. I'm pretty sure I'll still go with a large, just like my LES, but it'll have to have a pretty short stem I think.

    Lastly, I did pedal around on the M4SL briefly...just the areas on my property that I know how other bikes feel. I've confirmed....no need or desire for lockout. It's plenty stiff in open mode. Pivot - please make frames available with standard 3-position shocks.

    dgregorie - I ride a LES in size large. There's a Pivot demo near me this Saturday and their website says they're supposed to have the M4SL in multiple sizes. I'm going to try and go - and ride the medium and large back to back to give some input. Based on my quick experience noted above, if you're a roughly 5'11" person, it may well depend on your extremities and cockpit preferences to decide between medium and large.
    Maybe my post wasn't entirely clear. I'm pretty sure I'll ride a large, and if anything I may be close to an xl given that I'm just shy of 6'1" with long legs. My problem is with the trend of steeper seat tubes combined with a longer front center to create cockpit length. I'm all for short stems in the right application but not at the expense of a balanced, powerful pedaling position. I was trying to say that my LES puts me in a really ideal pedaling position while maintaining nimble handling both climbing and descending despite a 90mm stem (gasp). My hope is that the Mach 4sl fits more like a LES and doesn't make me feel like I'm sitting right on top of the bottom bracket. I'll look forward to hearing what you think.

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by a a r o n View Post
    if you're a roughly 5'11" person, it may well depend on your extremities and cockpit preferences to decide between medium and large.
    These days that is solidly large IMO/IME. It's easier to make the larger frame "smaller" with a shorter stem too, but on this kind of a bike, making a smaller bike larger really screws up your riding position, unlike something you are just going to shuttle all day (DH). There are still people that are influenced by the old "always downsize" mantra that was preached at every LBS in the 90s and 00s, but back then larger frames were so goofy that you took a huge hit with maneuverability, 8" or longer HTs and crazy high TTs. No longer. I'm not saying go way too big and yes extremities still matter, but at 5'11" it's consistent for me, "mediums" end up cramped and a lot of people still choose these because it's "what they've always done", not realizing it's cramping them up (space-wise).
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  123. #123
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    New Flow Mountain Bike review:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ-QzKIJUak
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  124. #124
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    New Pivot Mach 4 SL

    This is my new bikepacking rig. The Specialized swat cage fit perfectly to the three screw mount inside the front triangle. I managed the remote to only go to pro pedal mode instead of lockout mode. I donĎt need a lockout for bikepacking.

    Last edited by maettu; 06-05-2019 at 10:35 AM.

  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by maettu View Post
    This is done in the rear by removing the 5mm travel spacer in the rear shock.
    Does the rear wheel hit the seat tube? Do you notice any binding in the pivots? Cool mod to make it a little more down country.

  126. #126
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    deleted.

    Making any changes to shocks outside of our stock lengths for Eye to Eye, or stroke length can damage your frame, hurt you the rider, and possibly void the warranty of your frame.

    Please don't do it.

    Daniel
    "The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face".
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  127. #127
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    Sorry guys but I will not longer comment about this mod. I would not encourage anyone to do some modifications like that without exactly knowing what he is doing. I apologize for bringing up this...

    Quote Originally Posted by stom_m3 View Post
    Does the rear wheel hit the seat tube? Do you notice any binding in the pivots? Cool mod to make it a little more down country.

  128. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgregorie View Post
    Maybe my post wasn't entirely clear. I'm pretty sure I'll ride a large, and if anything I may be close to an xl given that I'm just shy of 6'1" with long legs. My problem is with the trend of steeper seat tubes combined with a longer front center to create cockpit length. I'm all for short stems in the right application but not at the expense of a balanced, powerful pedaling position. I was trying to say that my LES puts me in a really ideal pedaling position while maintaining nimble handling both climbing and descending despite a 90mm stem (gasp). My hope is that the Mach 4sl fits more like a LES and doesn't make me feel like I'm sitting right on top of the bottom bracket. I'll look forward to hearing what you think.
    I'm also debating the sizing of this bike. I currently ride a large 429sl with 90mm -17 stem slammed and 740mm flat bars. I'm 6'1" with 33" inseam and I have longish arms. My saddle setback (from BB) is around 83mm. This setup puts me in a great position for pedaling and not burning up my quads in 100mi endurance races (like if the saddle was forward). Also, I prefer the way the bike handles in tight singletrack.

    My large LES is set up to match the 429sl. I run the same saddle setback and height but with a 100mm -17 stem slammed and 740mm flat bars to get the reach close to the same as my 429sl. This setup also dials in the quickness of the steering to make both bikes feel similar.

    Both bikes have 100mm forks.

    Looking at the geo charts, I may be leaning towards the medium with a 90mm -6 stem. Also, the medium would have about the same wheelbase as a large 429sl. The head tube angle is still 1 degree slacker than the LES though so I'm not sure how that would feel. A test ride is definitely in order.

    I had a 2017 large Kona HeiHei previously and didn't like how the longer reach/shorter stem handled in the woods or on tough climbs. The front felt floppy on uphill switchbacks and I don't care what the seat tube angle is as long as I can get the saddle setback where I like it. I'm not always climbing.

    I'm not sure I 100% agree with long/low/slack for xc race rigs. I think there is a point of diminishing returns... but that's my opinion and everyone has a preferred setup.

  129. #129
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    90mm stem is crazy long for a modern bike, even the 429SL IMO. Then again, those bars are real narrow for your height, so you are probably compensating with the stem. The tradeoff is it'll be harder to keep the front straight in rough terrain.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    I know my style bucks the trends but it works for me. Ive tried wider bars but prefer 740mm because the fit around and through tight trees better at speed and I can lean the bike quicker, if that makes sense. I havenít noticed the bike being harder to keep straight but Iíve been running this setup for years. The oem 429 was specíd with 90mm stem and like 750mm bars.

    There is a local demo this weekend so if I get a chance to try the m4sl Iíll post back my thoughts.

  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by at_ecd View Post
    I'm also debating the sizing of this bike. I currently ride a large 429sl with 90mm -17 stem slammed and 740mm flat bars. I'm 6'1" with 33" inseam and I have longish arms. My saddle setback (from BB) is around 83mm. This setup puts me in a great position for pedaling and not burning up my quads in 100mi endurance races (like if the saddle was forward). Also, I prefer the way the bike handles in tight singletrack.

    My large LES is set up to match the 429sl. I run the same saddle setback and height but with a 100mm -17 stem slammed and 740mm flat bars to get the reach close to the same as my 429sl. This setup also dials in the quickness of the steering to make both bikes feel similar.

    Both bikes have 100mm forks.

    Looking at the geo charts, I may be leaning towards the medium with a 90mm -6 stem. Also, the medium would have about the same wheelbase as a large 429sl. The head tube angle is still 1 degree slacker than the LES though so I'm not sure how that would feel. A test ride is definitely in order.

    I had a 2017 large Kona HeiHei previously and didn't like how the longer reach/shorter stem handled in the woods or on tough climbs. The front felt floppy on uphill switchbacks and I don't care what the seat tube angle is as long as I can get the saddle setback where I like it. I'm not always climbing.

    I'm not sure I 100% agree with long/low/slack for xc race rigs. I think there is a point of diminishing returns... but that's my opinion and everyone has a preferred setup.
    What's your saddle height?

  132. #132
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    770mm.

  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by at_ecd View Post
    I know my style bucks the trends but it works for me. Ive tried wider bars but prefer 740mm because the fit around and through tight trees better at speed and I can lean the bike quicker, if that makes sense. I havenít noticed the bike being harder to keep straight but Iíve been running this setup for years. The oem 429 was specíd with 90mm stem and like 750mm bars.

    There is a local demo this weekend so if I get a chance to try the m4sl Iíll post back my thoughts.
    Well, one constant in MTB, you'll usually be able to adapt to what you ride and you often won't "know any better", happens to all of us. I always wonder about the tree claims. I posted some high speed trees vids from Texas and tight spots here where we have to weave in and out of them and we do it fine with ~800mm. I wonder if it's often more of a mental barrier, like those who don't like "exposure" next to the trail. Your hands will generally dictate where your brain accounts for clearance, but running exposed bar outside of your hands IS a recipe for tagging them. Otherwise, I've just never experienced or seen anything that makes me think it's a "think" in "tight places". Lastly, if you are that tall, going on a medium will most likely mean an excessive amount of seatpost, which will likely break the frame, either sooner or later. You can have all the insert in the world, but that doesn't account to hooking up a longer lever than required, which is what you are doing in that case. I did this the wrong way years ago on a frame and learned the lesson. Luckily this is such less of a concern these days due to great stand-over and no goofy things like 8" headtubes on the larger frames like we used to have in the 90s and 2000s. Still, there are some people and LBSs perpetuating the idea of "downsizing", even though it's an obsolete idea IME in this age of modern handlebar and stem lengths.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  134. #134
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    You get used to whatever you ride. I have there bikes with bars from 710-750. I've rented bikes with 800s. After a couple hours I'm settled in.

    Whatever works for each individual, go with it. I personally like a narrower bar and fast steering input. Don't have a problem with stability and I'm not shy.

    Different strokes different folks! 😀

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    Holy cow, I'm just under 5' 10" and when I jumped on a friends L 429SL with a 70mm stem it felt clown car small for me.
    Last edited by wfl3; 06-07-2019 at 03:50 AM.

  136. #136
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    Follow on to their YouTube video; several good HD photos in this review.

    https://flowmountainbike.com/tests/t...vot-mach-4-sl/
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  137. #137
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    I would like to see a comparison with Santa Cruz Blur.

  138. #138
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    Sorry if this was asked, but is frame only available anywhere? I checked Backcountry and Competitive.
    "And I shout that your all fakes and you should have seen the look on your face"

  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenglow View Post
    Sorry if this was asked, but is frame only available anywhere? I checked Backcountry and Competitive.
    On new models, we always launch as complete bikes first. Generally around 2 months after launch Frame only and Frame KIT options are available.
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  140. #140
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    Thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by dan23 View Post
    On new models, we always launch as complete bikes first. Generally around 2 months after launch Frame only and Frame KIT options are available.
    "And I shout that your all fakes and you should have seen the look on your face"

  141. #141
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    I got a chance to demo this bike today. In short, don't size down on this bike.


    I feel like I'm qualified to say it.... because I'm always a Large size but can sometimes squeeze onto a medium and ride it fine. I didn't even bother riding the medium M4SL. The large suited me perfectly. Honestly, It would have felt a little bit short If I hadn't moved the stem all the way down to the top of the head tube. For reference, I'm 5'11" and change. And 32" inseam.


    The bike rode awesome. It corners downhill so well for a short travel bike. And I confirmed that I absolutely hat the ardent race 2.2s. They definitely hold this bike back.

  142. #142
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    Thanks for update on your sizing. I'm about the same and was leaning towards large so that confirms it for me.

    The good old tire game. I'd like to have 3 sets of identical wheels all mounted with different tires just because I feel they make that much difference depending on the conditions. I'm really liking Vittoria new stuff. Between the Terreno, mezcal, and barzo I have 95% of my needs covered.

  143. #143
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    I currently ride a DW link bike (Turner) and so know how great the suspension is. I've always figured a Pivot would be my next bike--I've demoed enough of them to really like the feel of everything they make. Under normal trail riding, I really can't see the need for the Fox Live Valve upgrade with a DW link bike---the suspension doesn't need it. However, I also like to race and being able to have the suspension firm up closer to a hardtail on smooth flats, climbs and standing and then open up on downhill and bumps would be awesome. I say this because as much as I love my current bike, I find I don't stand up and attack as much as I used to on my hardtail.

    My question for those who have demoed a Mach 4 sl already........if you put the Fox Live Valve at a setting you'd use for racing, how firm is the suspension when you stand up and hammer? How much compression of the shock is there? Wasted energy? I've read it isn't fully locked---i.e. equivalent to a hardtail. How close is it?

    I'm going to be able to demo a Mach 4 sl next weekend, but I thought I'd toss the question out now as I'm super curious already!

  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Well, one constant in MTB, you'll usually be able to adapt to what you ride and you often won't "know any better", happens to all of us. I always wonder about the tree claims. I posted some high speed trees vids from Texas and tight spots here where we have to weave in and out of them and we do it fine with ~800mm. I wonder if it's often more of a mental barrier, like those who don't like "exposure" next to the trail. Your hands will generally dictate where your brain accounts for clearance, but running exposed bar outside of your hands IS a recipe for tagging them. Otherwise, I've just never experienced or seen anything that makes me think it's a "think" in "tight places". Lastly, if you are that tall, going on a medium will most likely mean an excessive amount of seatpost, which will likely break the frame, either sooner or later. You can have all the insert in the world, but that doesn't account to hooking up a longer lever than required, which is what you are doing in that case. I did this the wrong way years ago on a frame and learned the lesson. Luckily this is such less of a concern these days due to great stand-over and no goofy things like 8" headtubes on the larger frames like we used to have in the 90s and 2000s. Still, there are some people and LBSs perpetuating the idea of "downsizing", even though it's an obsolete idea IME in this age of modern handlebar and stem lengths.
    I honestly did even think about the seat post length as I've never had this problem. Thanks for the info and it makes sense to me.

    @aaron - There are definitely trade offs for me with bike size. I love a shorter bike that I can get over the front and hammer climbs, but they do weird stuff on long, fast downhills. If I mostly rode big mountains with sustained descents i would probably always go with long/slack and wider bars. It seems most races I do lean towards tight, twisty, and punchy with lots of road connections.

    I'm still going to demo both but I'll most likely end up on a large. Thanks everyone for the input.

  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by southacres View Post

    My question for those who have demoed a Mach 4 sl already........if you put the Fox Live Valve at a setting you'd use for racing, how firm is the suspension when you stand up and hammer? How much compression of the shock is there? Wasted energy? I've read it isn't fully locked---i.e. equivalent to a hardtail. How close is it?
    There are 5 settings on the Live Valve controller. If you put it on 5, I sure as hell can't feel any suspension movement at all when I stand and hammer. You'll be able to find a setting that suits you.

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  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by John P. View Post
    There are 5 settings on the Live Valve controller. If you put it on 5, I sure as hell can't feel any suspension movement at all when I stand and hammer. You'll be able to find a setting that suits you.

    JP
    Hi John P, thanks for taking the time to post responses on the forum. I was hoping you could provide some complete bike actual weights. I know the World Cup XT is advertised as 20.9 in medium, but info on other models would be useful if you have those. thanks.

  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by John P. View Post
    There are 5 settings on the Live Valve controller. If you put it on 5, I sure as hell can't feel any suspension movement at all when I stand and hammer. You'll be able to find a setting that suits you.

    JP
    Thank you. That's what I was hoping to hear!

  148. #148
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    Anybody point me in the right direction for a headset to suit M4SL.
    Website says.. "For the Mach 4 SL, we use an integrated style headset. The upper bearing measures 1-1/8" with 45į/45į ACB & has an OD of 46mm. The lower bearing measures 1-1/2" with 36į/45į ACB & has an OD of 56mm"

    I could just leave it up to my LBS once my frame comes in, but just curious.

  149. #149
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    ThatĎs correct...unfortunately!
    The Mach 4 SL has integrated headset cups instead of pressed-in cups like most of the other Pivot models. I say unfortunately because there is no way to use a angle headset to modify the head angle.

  150. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by majorhazard View Post
    Anybody point me in the right direction for a headset to suit M4SL.
    Website says.. "For the Mach 4 SL, we use an integrated style headset. The upper bearing measures 1-1/8" with 45į/45į ACB & has an OD of 46mm. The lower bearing measures 1-1/2" with 36į/45į ACB & has an OD of 56mm"

    I could just leave it up to my LBS once my frame comes in, but just curious.
    I believe the frames come with the headset.
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  151. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post
    I believe the frames come with the headset.
    Thanks Noah, hope so that will make it easier.
    Might email Pivot and check.
    Ive been told my XL frame is on it's way to AUS

  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by wfl3 View Post
    Holy cow, I'm just under 5' 10" and when I jumped on a friends L 429SL with a 70mm stem it felt clown car small for me.
    Old 429 felt very small on me as well. When deciding between bikes a few years ago, I went with an XL Ibis Ripley. Iím 6í00Ē with 33Ē inseam. Had 3 demo rides last week on a large 4SL and it fit great. Usually I size up on bikes, on the 4SL I wouldnít recommend it.

    just picked my XTR World Cup yesterday. Great bike.
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  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegionX View Post

    just picked my XTR World Cup yesterday. Great bike.
    Got a weight on your Large?

  154. #154
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    Yes, would be nice to start seeing some real world weights on these.

    I'm guessing right in the 23lb neighborhood out of the box for that build - before adding pedals and stuff?

  155. #155
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    Large XTR World Cup, added a fox transfer 150, with XT pedals, Arundel bottle cage and my garmin mount. Ready to race weight:
    10.88 kg or 23.98 lb.
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  156. #156
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    Thanks for the weight update. So just about 23lbs out of the box for the Large XTR WC, very nice.

  157. #157
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    World Cup comes with a fixed Carbon post, no dropper, so weight out the box was a hair above 22lb.
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  158. #158
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    Weird, they list the XTR WC spec'd with a dropper on the website? Unless you get the Fox live version.

  159. #159
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    I thought the same thing. Contacted Pivot on the chat, and they said website was wrong and they were going to correct it. If you go to the build your bike on the website, youíll see that none of World Cup build come with the dropper.
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  160. #160
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    Yeah, they need to fix that. Someone expecting what they saw on there might not be happy when it showed up. ;-)

  161. #161
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    Just built my large XX1 Team version and finally got a ride on it and it is awesome! I am just over 6' with a 32" inseam and normal reach and it fits perfect. The only thing I don't like is the suspension lockout lever setup under the left handlebar. I have a paddle dropper lever on my Trail and I kept hitting it by accident instead of the Fox Integra dropper lever. I would love to put a nice paddle DROPPER lever under the bar and move the lockout above the bars but not having much luck finding a dual cable lockout lever that will work (some threads on using the Scott one but not sure if it will work.)

  162. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by rallyhawk View Post
    Just built my large XX1 Team version and finally got a ride on it and it is awesome! I am just over 6' with a 32" inseam and normal reach and it fits perfect. The only thing I don't like is the suspension lockout lever setup under the left handlebar. I have a paddle dropper lever on my Trail and I kept hitting it by accident instead of the Fox Integra dropper lever. I would love to put a nice paddle DROPPER lever under the bar and move the lockout above the bars but not having much luck finding a dual cable lockout lever that will work (some threads on using the Scott one but not sure if it will work.)
    It's not a handsome solution, but you can flip that FOX lever upside down, and run it above your controls on the other side of the bar.
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  163. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by rallyhawk View Post
    Just built my large XX1 Team version and finally got a ride on it and it is awesome! I am just over 6' with a 32" inseam and normal reach and it fits perfect. The only thing I don't like is the suspension lockout lever setup under the left handlebar. I have a paddle dropper lever on my Trail and I kept hitting it by accident instead of the Fox Integra dropper lever. I would love to put a nice paddle DROPPER lever under the bar and move the lockout above the bars but not having much luck finding a dual cable lockout lever that will work (some threads on using the Scott one but not sure if it will work.)
    I have used the Scott Twin Lock and the DT Swiss Two Stage Lever without hiccups. Scott has more adjustability though. PM if you would like one...I think I have a spare and no need for it...


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  164. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlostruco View Post
    I have used the Scott Twin Lock and the DT Swiss Two Stage Lever without hiccups. Scott has more adjustability though. PM if you would like one...I think I have a spare and no need for it...
    I can't wait to see others workout the best setup with lockout and dropper togeather.
    My frame is still 3 weeks away and i will be working on the same issue as well.

  165. #165
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    Got mine ordered today. Hopefully inventory comes in soon... Sounds like it's pretty slim pickings.

  166. #166
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    Downcountry

    I caught my Mach 4 SL listening to Hank Williams Jr last night. I'm afraid she's gone DOWNCOUNTRY.
    New Pivot Mach 4 SL-mach4sldc.jpg
    Currently trying a Rock Shox Deluxe R with top bearing mount (just testing a lot of different shocks for comparison's sake) . I gotta say, I miss the lockout.
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  167. #167
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    Miss the lockout because it doesn't pedal well without it?

  168. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by wfl3 View Post
    Miss the lockout because it doesn't pedal well without it?
    No, it pedals just fine. I've just become accustomed to locking it out when sprinting and climbing (and sprinting up climbs). If it's not rough, it's nice to have nearly 100% of your energy going into the pedals. I did a short track race last week and flicked it off and on probably 50 times.
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  169. #169
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    [QUOTE=NoahColorado;
    Currently trying a Rock Shox Deluxe R with top bearing mount (just testing a lot of different shocks for comparison's sake) . I gotta say, I miss the lockout.[/QUOTE]
    Looking forward to the comparison.

  170. #170
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    Are there any more ride reviews that people can share? Maybe there aren't many of these out in the wild yet, but outside of a couple of comments on here there have been very few firsthand impressions. When this bike came out it made it to my short list for a new bike, but I want to hear what you folks have to say!

  171. #171
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    Do you know how long the stem was?

    Im 6'4". I tried an XL 4SL yesterday, with a 70, then a 90 stem. The bike felt short (in term of reach) with the 70, very short, I had a hard time with the front of the bike. The 90 dramatically improved it but I'm still worried that the reach is just too short.

    I was surprised to see the geo chart, for an XL, R is 485 with 100mm fork but goes to 472(!) with the 120! That's quite a change.

    For reference, I normally race a Hei Hei Race, 100 fork, with 100mm stem. Reach on that is 485. Any my trail bike is 502 reach, with I think a 70.

    Any other tall peeps looking at this and getting a sense of good fit?

  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by bizango View Post
    Are there any more ride reviews that people can share? Maybe there aren't many of these out in the wild yet, but outside of a couple of comments on here there have been very few firsthand impressions. When this bike came out it made it to my short list for a new bike, but I want to hear what you folks have to say!
    Yes! Iíd really like to hear more about how this bike rides WITHOUT Live Valve. Iím sure itís awesome but itís also absurdly expensive.

  173. #173
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    Iíve had my 4SL for just over a week. Got the XTR World Cup for XC Racing and it is replacing a 2016 Cannondale Scalpel. Scalpel had a steep HA of 71.2 which got a bit sketchy on technical courses. I looked at Blur, SB100, Scalpel Si, and An Epic.

    DW suspension tracks very well and gives lot of grip on tough technical climbs. Doesnít get caught up over square edge rocks and roots as the single pivot of the Scalpel did. More efficient over technical climbs as well. DW pedals very well when open and I only use the lockout when racing. Frame was the stiffest of the bikes I was looking at.

    The efficiency of the suspension without out any proprietary parts (SB100, Epic Brain) was one of my considerations. Whenever I had to send the Scalpel in for service, it always took 4-6 weeks to get the bike back due to having to send the Lefty in to Cannondale.

    More importantly, the bike fits well, climbs incredibly, and is just a hair less capable than the SB100. Strava times on the Pivot were faster than any of the other bikes as well. I really wanted the SB100, but have enough friends who have had issues to eliminate that from contention. Epic was a great bike (honestly all of them are), but preferred the slacker head angle of the 4SL 68.5 vs 69.5. Would have been happy with either bike, but the fit and lack of proprietary parts sealed the deal for the Pivot. THought the brain on the Epic was very efficient and it rode well, but 4SL was more balanced and a bit more capable down hill.

    The builds are pretty expensive, but there really isnít anything to upgrade except maybe the grips. For racers, the DT XRC1200 are a must have. Hardest decision was getting the Team or World Cup edition because of the fork.

    Scalpel weighed 25.7lb with dropper and pedals, Pivot is just under 24 lb with dropper and pedals. I wasnít looking to buy the 4SL, but after the demo it moved to number one on my list. Very confident going down hill and very efficient going up. Epic beats it by a hair going up hill, and tight switch backs. Pivot is a better technical climber and much more confidence inspiring going down hill. More stable and capable than a Blur up and down. (Full disclosure Iím not a VPP hater, but not a big fan either).

    Best way to know if it works for you is to go out and ride one. Good bikes are so expensive these days to take the word of anyone. The most important review is your own.
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  174. #174
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    Good info. Thanks for the reviews.

  175. #175
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    Singletracks Mountain Biking review:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dbhrp6sYyw
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  176. #176
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    Any tall folks riding or planning (let's say 6'3"+) to ride the M4SL. I'm thinking a 90mm stem will get me the reach I need (I'm 6'4").


    Man I wish this thing were 2 cm longer!

  177. #177
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    I have two rides into my medium XTR Team with Live Valve. The bike is well built. It is among the quietest bikes I have ridden. My trail bike is an Intense Primer. Ahead of the BC Bike race I felt I needed a bike that will help me on the climbs. That it does. Even with the Live Valve turned off, this bike climbs amazingly well. Activate Live Valve and it gets even more efficient. On steep descents you donít give anything up to a bike with more travel so long as you are careful with your line. The 67.5 head angle is fantastic in terms of down hill confidence. All the gains this bike provides on the climbs are given up on fast rooty single track when compared to a trail bike. It is not unexpected - this is why you get the bike, but if you are thinking this will be a trail bike and an xc bike, you will feel in this case. The bike doesnít damp big hits as well as a trail bike. (Obviously)

    I have done some moderate drops (4í) on this and some super steep trails - I was pleasantly surprised by how well this bike handled the terrain.

    XTR is amazing. I listen to some podcasts (JRA, The Path) that speak poorly of XTR. I donít get it. XTR shifts incredibly well. Most importantly, I find the changes across gears in XTR blows away Eagle. For this reason alone I would recommend XTR over Eagle. Add in superior shifting under full load and I think I am back on the Shimano train.

    Ok, there are some things are bad. Ok, worse than bad. Just flat out ridiculous on a $10k bike. First, a $10k bike is ridiculous, but itís what I do. But a $10k bike should not come with a boat anchor aluminum stem. Add $100 to the price and put on a carbon stem. Similarly, the saddle is comfy, but I would expect titanium or carbon. Finally, it makes no sense to me that the Team builds use a 740 mm bars while the World Cup builds use 760 bars. I would think that the dropper bike would warrant the wider bars. I just donít get it.

    All in all I am very happy with this bike. I have yet to race it, but I can tell it is a rocket.

    I swapped my Fox dropper for a Bike Yoke, 2 piston brakes for Quad piston brakes, and the 2.2 tires for 2.35. My bike weighs 26 pounds.

  178. #178
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    Carbon stems are generally not lighter than aluminum because the small complex features like bolt threads and junctions do not lend themselves well to carbon construction. Thatís why you see so few. The Synchros bars are a better solution, the 780 wide ďEnduroĒ Synchros setup is 5g less than the narrow Next SL and weight weenie stem I was running previously. Same thing with saddles, unless itís an unreasonable ďfull carbonĒ deal, it doesnít really do anything for weight. Function over form.

    Yeah, donít get the bars. Weight weenie xcers are some of the last to understand the benefit of wider bars, but being a progressive XC bike, youíd think that would be addressed.
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  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by onobed View Post

    XTR is amazing. I listen to some podcasts (JRA, The Path) that speak poorly of XTR. I donít get it. XTR shifts incredibly well. Most importantly, I find the changes across gears in XTR blows away Eagle. For this reason alone I would recommend XTR over Eagle. Add in superior shifting under full load and I think I am back on the Shimano train.
    starting to think less of the JRA people. i think they *think* they know more than they do, and their cynicism is irrationally distributed.

  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Carbon stems are generally not lighter than aluminum because the small complex features like bolt threads and junctions do not lend themselves well to carbon construction. Thatís why you see so few. The Synchros bars are a better solution, the 780 wide ďEnduroĒ Synchros setup is 5g less than the narrow Next SL and weight weenie stem I was running previously. Same thing with saddles, unless itís an unreasonable ďfull carbonĒ deal, it doesnít really do anything for weight. Function over form.

    Yeah, donít get the bars. Weight weenie xcers are some of the last to understand the benefit of wider bars, but being a progressive XC bike, youíd think that would be addressed.
    For somebody with rather narrower than average male upper body and narrower wooded trails I don't buy into bars that are over 720mm wide. In fact in my area there has been quite few small re routes because the trail was passing between narrowly spaced trees.
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  181. #181
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    Thought you guys might like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post
    Thought you guys might like this.

    Awesome video Noah! Are you running a 75mm as specced or did you size up a frame and go with a short stem?

    I ask this because of the reduced reach you get with the 125mm Ribbon. I assume you are loving this fork at 125mm on the Mach 4SL ?


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  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post
    Thought you guys might like this.

    Great video. Nice job on the KOM. Joe's Ridge in Fruita is a blast. You rocked it on the Mach 4 SL. Fun to watch.

  184. #184
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    Nice style Noah....

  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post
    Thought you guys might like this.
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  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalea View Post
    Awesome video Noah! Are you running a 75mm as specced or did you size up a frame and go with a short stem?

    I ask this because of the reduced reach you get with the 125mm Ribbon. I assume you are loving this fork at 125mm on the Mach 4SL ?


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    I'm on a XL with 60mm stem (6'1"). Fit is awesome! Can't honestly remember if my fork is 125 or the full 130mm.

    Sold my Trail 429 because it felt a little redundant now that I have this and a Firebird 29. I also have a Les 29 and a new Vault (on the way), so I needed the space too! I'll say I loved my previous 429sl, but this bike is better in every respect, most notably when you're riding on the ragged edge and pushing it.
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  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike2MTB View Post
    Great video. Nice job on the KOM. Joe's Ridge in Fruita is a blast. You rocked it on the Mach 4 SL. Fun to watch.
    Thank you! It's one of my favorites. I'm stoked to go get all of the KOMs out there with this bike, well, except for the Price Cut climb which was set by Sepp Kuss when he was like 15. He now rides World Tour road for Jumbo Visma and did the Giro d'Italia this year. Probably not coming close to that one!
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post
    Sold my Trail 429 because it felt a little redundant now that I have this and a Firebird 29.
    the Mach 4 SL gets that rowdy eh? good to know.

  189. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    the Mach 4 SL gets that rowdy eh? good to know.
    I'd just say there's a lot of overlap with the M4SL and T429 abilities, and the T429 and Firebird's abilities, so much so that there's a pretty narrow range where the T429 is clearly better than either of the others. Does that make sense?

    If I was flying abroad for a riding vacation and wanted one bike that could do anything from XC to bike park riding, I'd probably be bummed that I didn't keep the T429 (or even the Switchblade). But with the M4SL and FB29 combo, I've got bikes that are better suited to a wider range of riding/terrain.
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    it does. im on a ripmo as a one-bike solution, so i get it.

    hoping they knock the next switchblade out of the park...

  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post
    I'm on a XL with 60mm stem (6'1"). Fit is awesome! Can't honestly remember if my fork is 125 or the full 130mm.
    Honestly I'm a little bummed there isn't more reach on this frame. I'm 6'3" and am not sure an XL would be as long as I'd like. Sniper and Blur are both ~3/4" longer in the reach in XL, which allows for a nice short stem. Running a 50mm stem on my XL Sniper, which is perfect; looks like I'd need a 70mm stem to get my bars to the same place with with Mach4...

  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post
    Honestly I'm a little bummed there isn't more reach on this frame. I'm 6'3" and am not sure an XL would be as long as I'd like. Sniper and Blur are both ~3/4" longer in the reach in XL, which allows for a nice short stem. Running a 50mm stem on my XL Sniper, which is perfect; looks like I'd need a 70mm stem to get my bars to the same place with with Mach4...
    Are you running your stem slammed or do you have spacers under? I ask because the stack on both those bikes is shorter than the Mach 4, and reducing stack meaning increasing reach. The Sniper is almost 2" lower (looking at the 120 charts).
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  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post
    Are you running your stem slammed or do you have spacers under? I ask because the stack on both those bikes is shorter than the Mach 4, and reducing stack meaning increasing reach. The Sniper is almost 2" lower (looking at the 120 charts).
    An excellent point; I do run a couple spacers, so I guess the non-spaced reach on the M4 would be similar to Sniper with spacers.

    TBH I'm a bit confused on the stack numbers, the HT on the M4 is 1" longer than the Sniper in XL, but stack is 2" greater. Where's that extra inch come from? BB heights are damn close (M4 actually higher) so this is a mystery to me.

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    Noah, what size LES are you riding? Iím just shy of your height on a size Large with a 90mm stem and itís perfect for me. Wondering if I can get away with an XL Mach 4sl and get that second water bottle on board.

  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgregorie View Post
    Noah, what size LES are you riding? Iím just shy of your height on a size Large with a 90mm stem and itís perfect for me. Wondering if I can get away with an XL Mach 4sl and get that second water bottle on board.
    I ride an XL Les with a 70mm "drop-style" stem to bring the front end down and increase the reach.

    If you looking for a similar fit, I think it's gonna be hard sizing up on a bike that's already longer size-for-size.
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  196. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post
    An excellent point; I do run a couple spacers, so I guess the non-spaced reach on the M4 would be similar to Sniper with spacers.

    TBH I'm a bit confused on the stack numbers, the HT on the M4 is 1" longer than the Sniper in XL, but stack is 2" greater. Where's that extra inch come from? BB heights are damn close (M4 actually higher) so this is a mystery to me.
    I modeled it and the only thing I can come up with is that Intense's geo is wrong. They show the same geo for the XC and Trail Sniper which can't be if they're using the same frame but different length forks. I think the geo they show is with a 100mm fork, so its reach is shorter (and stack higher) with a 120mm.
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    Got the bike and had chance to take it for a nice spin on some familiar trails yesterday. I had a 429SL prior to and thought Iíd provide some feedback.

    There are similarities between the two. When you get on, it has a lot of the same general comfort and body positioning as the 429SL. You can tell the slacker HT. The 429SL was a pretty quick steering machine. The 4SL (even with the bars cut to 700mm) takes a bit more steering input to negotiate tight trees at speed. Took me about an hour to really adjust to it, but once I did, it wasnít a problem. I wasnít sure I would love the remote lockouts, but after having them, Iíd say they are quite nice. After getting comfortable with the trigger placement, I found myself using it quite a bit actually and whenever I stood up on a steep a smooth in incline, Iíd go full lock and it was nice to accelerate out at max efficiency. Iím not running the dropper so the extra lever isnít a problem for me.

    The shock tune is a little more plush which I like. I feel the 34SC is an improvement from my prior Fox 34. It just seems a bit more responsive especially in the initial part of the stroke. Iíd have preferred a flat bar, but that wasnít available in the XT/XTR build. Not a big deal there at all. I just lowered the spacers a bit and all is fine.

    The weight is better than the 429SL for sure. Not a super flyweight, but its good. Mine is about 24.0 lbs w/o pedals XTR Crank w Stages PM, 1420 gram wheels (custom build), XTR Shifter and RD, XT Brakes, and RF Next seat post. Iím really not sure how accurate the 20.9lb claimed weight for a World Cup Medium build is. I think youíd be stripping it down quite a bit to get to that. That seems to be the case on a lot of bikes though.

    Earlier I asked the question about crank compatibility. Iím using a M9000 XTR Single Ring with 34t One-Up ring. I have a 0.5mm spacer on the drive side for a little more clearance, but have NO issues at all with clearance or chain line. Plenty of room on the non-drive side for the stages PM.

    For those building up your bike, use a hanger alignment tool (I do this on all bikes) right out of the gate and get it straight. It was not perfect out of the box and there was a noticeable shifting improvement as to be expected with hanger that is off slightly.

    As with any pivot iíve Owned or ridden, the attention to detail and solid feel of the bike is EXCELLENT. You pay a premium for this bike, but it shows. I love that they offer so many build specs. Every bike Iíve ever bought Iíve had to make a few small adjustments after the fact, but this at least gets you dang close. If you know how to use eBay, you can swap and sell parts pretty easy.

    Overall, 9.5/10 for me. Love the bike. Set a couple PRs with crap legs and bad trail conditions all while still getting used to the bike so it seems to be a pretty fast machine.
    Last edited by wildh; 07-12-2019 at 05:12 PM.

  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildh View Post
    Got the bike and had chance to take it for a nice spin on some familiar trails yesterday. I had a 429SL prior to and thought Iíd provide some feedback.

    There are similarities between the two. When you get on, it has a lot of the same general comfort and body positioning as the 429SL. You can tell the slacker HT. The 429SL was a pretty quick steering machine. The 4SL (even with the bars cut to 700mm) takes a bit more steering input to negotiate tight trees at speed. Took me about an hour to really adjust to it, but once I did, it wasnít a problem. I wasnít sure I would love the remote lockouts, but after having them, Iíd say they are quite nice. After getting comfortable with the trigger placement, I found myself using it quite a bit actually and whenever I stood up on a steep a smooth in incline, Iíd go full lock and it was nice to accelerate out at max efficiency. Iím not running the dropper so the extra lever isnít a problem for me.

    The shock tune is a little more plush which I like. I feel the 34SC is an improvement from my prior Fox 34. It just seems a bit more responsive especially in the initial part of the stroke. Iíd have preferred a flat bar, but that wasnít available in the XT/XTR build. Not a big deal there at all. I just lowered the spacers a bit and all is fine.

    The weight is better than the 429SL for sure. Not a super flyweight, but its good. Mine is about 25.5lbs even w/o pedals XTR Crank w Stages PM, 1420 gram wheels (custom build), XTR Shifter and RD, XT Brakes, and RF Next seat post. Iím really not sure how accurate the 20.9lb claimed weight for a World Cup Medium build is. I think youíd be stripping it down quite a bit to get to that. That seems to be the case on a lot of bikes though.

    Earlier I asked the question about crank compatibility. Iím using a M9000 XTR Single Ring with 34t One-Up ring. I have a 0.5mm spacer on the drive side for a little more clearance, but have NO issues at all with clearance or chain line. Plenty of room on the non-drive side for the stages PM.

    For those building up your bike, use a hanger alignment tool (I do this on all bikes) right out of the gate and get it straight. It was not perfect out of the box and there was a noticeable shifting improvement as to be expected with hanger that is off slightly.

    As with any pivot iíve Owned or ridden, the attention to detail and solid feel of the bike is EXCELLENT. You pay a premium for this bike, but it shows. I love that they offer so many build specs. Every bike Iíve ever bought Iíve had to make a few small adjustments after the fact, but this at least gets you dang close. If you know how to use eBay, you can swap and sell parts pretty easy.

    Overall, 9.5/10 for me. Love the bike. Set a couple PRs with crap legs and bad trail conditions all while still getting used to the bike so it seems to be a pretty fast machine.
    So the big question is? Is it worth upgrading to one. My current race rig is Tallboy 2 standing at 23lbs. To get the Mach 4SL with a comparable build would set me back $8K.
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  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by kk2 View Post
    So the big question is? Is it worth upgrading to one. My current race rig is Tallboy 2 standing at 23lbs. To get the Mach 4SL with a comparable build would set me back $8K.
    Thatís an individual decision. For me it was. Iím selling the 429SL and a 2019 CíDale FSI. The 4SL hits what I need in one bike.

    Not sure if you use all those bikes you have, but personally Iíd say you could unload a couple to offset the price and not be disappointed.

  200. #200
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    My medium Mach 4 SL build with full XTR, DT Swiss carbon wheels, stock aspen tires, uncut flat bars, 34 stepcast, lockout, and stock dropper came to 22 lbs, 15 ounces without pedals using the shops scale.

    I tried to weigh it at home with my crappy luggage scale with time carbon pedals and it was about 23.5-23.8 lbs.

    I'd post a review but I'm not great at describing ride qualities. But I came from a 429sl and the new Mach 4 SL has a racier feel to it.

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