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Any plans for split pivot?

6K views 29 replies 17 participants last post by  peanutaxis 
#1 ·
It struck me recently that with the success of Pivot's implementation of Dave Weagle's DW-Link suspension design, does Pivot have any plans to implement his Split Pivot design in a future bike? I'm not hearing much about Split Pivot....are there by chance patent issues with Trek's ABP design? Or has Pivot played with split pivot designs and decided that DW-Link is superior? Just curious....
 
#2 ·
I should have used the Google machine before posting here. DW was awarded a patent for his split pivot design in 2007, so that's not an issue. Apparently it is easier and cheaper to manufacture than DW-Link. My guess is that Pivot has chosen to stick with DW-Link. That would be fine by me, they certainly have it dialed in!
 
#3 ·
Quite the opposite. dw-link is more expensive to build, and hold tolerances than the split pivot designs.

The dw-link is the more efficient system from Dave Weagle. Both work great, and can be tuned to function well in all different situations. dw-link is still the most versatile and efficient in pedaling, climbing and sprinting - weather you are seated or standing while pedaling.
 
#6 ·
Actually I read somewere (maybe Mountain Bike Action) that they were not to impressed the split pivot design. I beleive it was on a Devinci bike review... anyway they said that the DW link had better anti pedal bob caracteristics. I havent tried any bikes with the split pivot design so I cant personally give my opinion.
 
#7 ·
Actually the OP was correct in stating that the Split is less expensive than the DW. "Apparently it is easier and cheaper to manufacture than DW-Link". Dan still has jetlag from his "vacation" in Europe ;)
 
#8 ·
DW-Link is focused at canceling out pedaling forces (pedal bob or squat) From Patent: ...suspension system of the invention is capable of lowering energy loss resulting from squat by producing an anti-squat response."

Split Pivot is about canceling out braking forces (brake jack) From Patent: "...link arrangement to control suspension movement by manipulating braking forces present in the link during decelration."

So each link system has its applications. I don't see Pivot using a Split Pivot design for most of their bikes though.

DW-Link Patent: Patent US7128329 - Vehicle suspension systems - Google Patents

Split Pivot Patent: Patent US7717212 - Vehicle suspension systems for seperated acceleration responses - Google Patents
 
#11 ·
BH Bikes have a Split Pivot system, so I'd guess that given the relationship between the two, if they were going to do anything, it would be to bring in the BH Split-Pivots rather than design their own...

I know that my LBS here in Aus, being both a Pivot & BH dealer, will be getting the BH 650b model in when it's available ;)
 
#13 ·
Hi guys,

First time in a while for me posting!

There are some new Split Pivot models coming soon, for example the new Morewood bikes using my design, and the BH 27.5" wheeled bike just launched at Eurobike, and there will be more options next year as well.

I can't let the cat out of the bag with Pivot, but we are always working on new dw-link Pivot frames. Did you see the Mach4 carbon?!! That thing is one heck of a ride, seriously. I've been on a test mule for what seems like an eternity and it has amassed hundreds of miles beyond what I needed to do for damper tuning and spec. I really enjoy that bike.

Whether it's dw-link, Split Pivot, or Delta, I put the same attention to detail and years of experience behind every bike that I design. I think that coupled with the unique tastes of my partners we have been able to develop a really wide range of products to suit the even wider range of riding styles, and riding preferences out there. A properly set up test ride is always the key to getting a feel for what works for any rider.

Take care,

Dave
 
#16 ·
Did you see the Mach4 carbon?!! That thing is one heck of a ride, seriously. I've been on a test mule for what seems like an eternity and it has amassed hundreds of miles beyond what I needed to do for damper tuning and spec. I really enjoy that bike.
Dave meant Mach 429 Carbon!
There is no Mach 4 Carbon...
 
#18 ·
Split pivot design is just a single pivot with no advantage over older seatstay pivot ("faux bar" although I hate that term) bikes.
(Yikes)

Not that there is anything wrong with bikes like that if they are tuned right, but split pivot just looks like an over complication with no benefit.

And that marketing BS about how a pivot at the axle has magical properties compared to a pivot an inch above or an inch forward of the axle is just gobbildy goook.
 
#21 ·
I'd love to see the judge throw out that case. I'm sick of all these completely obvious variations on a simple mechanical device getting awarded patents when there is absolutely nothing novel about them.
I really think that is the proper outcome. Who was first? Doesn't matter because its not a patentable design. Case closed now GTFO.
 
#23 ·
The math is a bit complicated, but its moves the forces from the frame (horst link is on the chainstay) and moves them to the axle. This dramatically changes how the forces react with frame, and more importantly how the those forces get translated into the shock.

So its not really that its 20mm apart, its that the pivot is the axle, vs away from the axle.
 
#28 ·
Oh noes, neg rep for my question!? That was a legitimate question dangit, especially when we have stuff like SC suing Yeti for a design with a completely different linkage, and a wheel path that is as at least as different from VPP as VPP is from Dw...

Anyways Paul thanks for explanation, I'd love to see that on paper if there is anything published, I haven't done statics in a while but I could probably grasp it.
 
#29 ·
Oh noes, neg rep for my question!? That was a legitimate question dangit, especially when we have stuff like SC suing Yeti for a design with a completely different linkage, and a wheel path that is as at least as different from VPP as VPP is from Dw...

Anyways Paul thanks for explanation, I'd love to see that on paper if there is anything published, I haven't done statics in a while but I could probably grasp it.
Patents get really weird, and its not always about the linkage. the DW link patent isn't about having a virtual pivot point (the twin bar suspension links) it is about how they place those suspension links in relation to the chain, I haven't looked through the other patents, but its probably something like that.

The reasons why the forces play out like that is upper physics. They just told us to reference the the diagram and trust that it is true, I think you can have a whole semester on you proving why the forces play out like they do. https://www.mpcfaculty.net/tom_rebold/ENGR8/SDC10893.JPG
 
#30 ·
Split pivot is kind of pointless. It's value is probably more in the marketing and the ability to confuse the public and say "this split pivot is the new awesome thing".

In reality the split pivot is just an over-complicated work-around of the Horst link (which Specialized owns, so they can't use without paying$$) Think about it. If Trek used a simple Horst link on, say, it's Remedy, nothing changes. In fact, it would look almost exactly like the 2010 Specialized Safire:
*webwebweb.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/archive/2010/safire
And, in actual fact, it makes the design far simpler. You don't have to have complicated concentric pivots, so you can make your bike far more stiff.
 
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