Sunday Hunting in PA- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Sunday Hunting in PA

    There is a movement to change the rules to open all hunting seasons in PA to Sundays. If the rules change, it will apply to all PA lands currently open to hunting (State Forest, Parks, National Forest, Army Corps sites) and not just the State Gamelands.

    Numerous Sunday hunting bills were introduced in the State House and Senate this past year. There were all defeated, primarily by pressure from groups representing home owners, land developers and farmers. Hikers, bikers and equestrians were barely involved, that needs to change.

    Pressure is still being applied to the legislators. Those advocating Sunday hunting are now attempting an end run around the legal process. They are pressuring the PA Game Commission to make a ruling opening all hunting to Sunday. Such a rule would be beyond the commission's defined powers, but will take a court case to prove. In the interim, hunting might be allowed on Sundays.

    If you value having Sunday as the one day per week you can go riding or hiking without fearing for your safety or interfering with hunters, please write you state legislator. Below are the links to find out who your reps are:

    1. Find out your full zip code at:
    http://zip4.usps.com/zip4/welcome.jsp

    2. Locate the name and mailing address of your State Representative
    and Senator at:
    http://www.legis.state.pa.us/

    3. Write you legislators with your own letter, using my letter, or using my letter as a template. You can access copies of my letters at:
    http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/...c105/bike.html
    Last edited by Raymo853; 11-18-2005 at 06:48 AM. Reason: correct url

  2. #2
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    Fear?

    If you fear hunters, you should inform yourself. I mountain bike year round, and hunt year round. Last time I checked, mountain bikers where not listed as game. In fact, maybe you should approach a hunter and learn for yourself that saftey is number one. It takes hours of training to obtain a permit to hunt. How many hours of training did you recieve, before you first rode you mountain bike? Point is this, You are as likley to get shot sitting in your living room, as you would clipping through the woods with trees zinging by. Ask any hunter, even if they want to shoot you, it's really hard to hit a moving target in the woods.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kline
    If you fear hunters, you should inform yourself. I mountain bike year round, and hunt year round. Last time I checked, mountain bikers where not listed as game. In fact, maybe you should approach a hunter and learn for yourself that saftey is number one. It takes hours of training to obtain a permit to hunt. How many hours of training did you recieve, before you first rode you mountain bike? Point is this, You are as likley to get shot sitting in your living room, as you would clipping through the woods with trees zinging by. Ask any hunter, even if they want to shoot you, it's really hard to hit a moving target in the woods.
    I know you will not agree, but there are hunters that shoot without fully identifying their quarry. Also many hunters shoot without concern for the path bullets take past their intended target. Do I think that is the majority of hunters? - No way. Unfortunately when a minority of people with very lethal firearms continually act as jackballs, it harms all hunters.

    As to your comment “…, You are as likely to get shot sitting in your living room…” that is not an argument for Sunday hunting but against it! I know many people that during deer season have to spend all day Saturday in their basement. Do you think it is fair to ask them to stay in the basement all weekend?

    One thing to add to my orginal post. The Keystone Trails Association, a hiking group, did have an effective and organize effort opposing the bills introduced into the PA House and Senate.
    Last edited by Raymo853; 11-19-2005 at 05:20 AM.

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    Hours of training? If you're referring to the hunter's safety course, that's not that big a deal. I took that course years ago, although I've never actually hunted. It's not particularly comforting to know that it's difficult to hit a moving target. Even if you miss the target (moving or not), the bullet eventually hits something.

    I learned to shoot as a child, in a controlled, safe environment. I'm relatively comfortable around firearms. I have nothing against hunting. But I'm not comfortable running into hunters when I'm riding or hiking. I usually don't know them, and I have no idea how skilled or careful they are.

    Hopefully sanity prevails and hunting is not expanded to Sundays.

  5. #5
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    Sundays are allowed

    Sunday hunting is already allowed for certain animals. Crows and coyotes for instance can be hunted legally on sundays. The proposed bill is to allow an expansion for the firearm deer seasons. At most that would effect three weeks in late November and early December. The amount of hikers and bikers in the woods at these times is like twenty, state wide. The game commission is losing money due to the decline of liscense sales. People like myself who participate in both sports, could use the extra day to fill our tags, and still have a day to ride. It allows more options for poeple with non traditional work schedules. Might I also add, that if it is fear, that drives this opposition, then it is an emotional response, not a logical one. When a hunter sees me pedaling up a gasline with a .22-250 strapped to my back, he respects and recognizes me as a fellow sportsman. As far as the idiot miniority is concerned, those types are on the highways, in the schools, and at your work. Those types are just as dangerous whether they have a gun, a car, or your childs attention. Fear is a powerful and dark emotion. Controlling fear is the key to developing a healthy relationship between what we can control and what cannot be controlled. Chin up, walk tall and with the truth. It will set you free.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kline
    Fear is a powerful and dark emotion. Controlling fear is the key to developing a healthy relationship between what we can control and what cannot be controlled.
    I like that.
    Did you come up with that?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kline
    Fear is a powerful and dark emotion. Controlling fear is the key to developing a healthy relationship between what we can control and what cannot be controlled. Chin up, walk tall and with the truth. It will set you free.
    Ignoring a real threat to your saftey by claiming you are defeating fear in no way changes the nature of the threat. Such an act is not brave but foolish and denial of reality regardless of what lines you use from sci-fi films to make it sound macho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kline
    You are as likley to get shot sitting in your living room, as you would clipping through the woods with trees zinging by.The amount of hikers and bikers in the woods at these times is like twenty, state wide. As far as the idiot miniority is concerned, those types are on the highways, in the schools, and at your work.
    Are you going for the record of most unsubstantiated, random statements made regarding one post? Seems like it.

    The way you sell it, it sounds like pretty much the only reasonable, trustworthy, active in the winter month citizens these days are hunters. All else are more likely to be lazy, crazy nutjobs killing each other in living rooms.

    You can hunt 6 days a week during season now, no? There's no way you'd ever think to make an allowance for those who don't want to be in the woods without the fear(irrational or not) of some guy who maybe didnt' pay close enough attention during their "hours of training" or for who safety isn't the first priority or maybe decided a few beers adds to the enjoyment of the sport (which is more than a few guys I know personally, not based on conjecture).

    Not making such biased generalized statements is pretty liberating as well. I'm sure that most people who are not in favor of hunting on sundays aren't walking around jumping at corners living their lives engulfed with fear. I'll bet a good many have no problem walking tall or even riding on days hunting is allowed. And if you want to talk about the truth setting you free, keep your statements empirically based rather than unsubstantiated exaggerations.

    People might actually consider your side of the argument if you didn't try to ride such a high horse and pretend every hunter like you.
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    There will be some good news onthe state wide group officially forming PERMANENTLY(KMBA.....Keystone Mountain Bike Association) we will have someone dedicated to soley look at legislation, bills on the floor etc. they have iformed me sunday hunting may never get passed.

  10. #10
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    NO Sci-Fi

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymo853
    Ignoring a real threat to your saftey by claiming you are defeating fear in no way changes the nature of the threat. Such an act is not brave but foolish and denial of reality regardless of what lines you use from sci-fi films to make it sound macho.
    What movie are my own words from? I never claimed to defeat fear. I only believe that fear can cloud logical judgement. The statistics are out there if you care to inform yourselves. Hunting, is a safe sport. It's fact, simple as that. The majority of hunting accidents are also self-inflicted. I've never had an accident hunting, however my Mtb and I have been through a few scrapes, including a broken wrist. Do I avoid cycling now? Of course not. I see that the majority of people don't want Sunday hunting, and that is perfectly fine. I'm just trying to argue a point for those who believe it could be done safely and responsibly. As far as ignoring saftey and being macho, well that is relative to risk assessment only. Mountain biking would not exist if some macho dude who, didn't assess risk quite like the norm, decided to pedal a little red tricycle over hiking trails.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kline
    What movie are my own words from? I never claimed to defeat fear. I only believe that fear can cloud logical judgement. The statistics are out there if you care to inform yourselves. Hunting, is a safe sport. It's fact, simple as that. The majority of hunting accidents are also self-inflicted. I've never had an accident hunting, however my Mtb and I have been through a few scrapes, including a broken wrist. Do I avoid cycling now? Of course not. I see that the majority of people don't want Sunday hunting, and that is perfectly fine. I'm just trying to argue a point for those who believe it could be done safely and responsibly. As far as ignoring saftey and being macho, well that is relative to risk assessment only. Mountain biking would not exist if some macho dude who, didn't assess risk quite like the norm, decided to pedal a little red tricycle over hiking trails.
    I couldn't find a more recent listing of hunting accidents than 2004, but just taking into consideration PA, which at a quick glance looks like it actually had the most hunting accidents that year (I didn't count the amount in other states, but a quick glance seems its likely), they recorded 55 hunting accidents. To be fair, only 4 were fatal.

    However, only 12 of the 55 were self-inflicted. I don't know about other states, but in PA, the MAJORITY of hunting accidents are NOT self-inflicted, as you claim.

    Of the 43 accidents that were NOT self-inflicted, the "major factor" (from listing) seems to mostly be split between "failure to identify", "failure to check beyond target", and "victim out of sight" (all phrases from stat pages). The site does not list what the victims were doing when shot, so its possible they could be fellow hunters as well as other outdoorsmen (including hikers and bikers). But it does show that hunting accidents happen, most are NOT self-inflicted, and maybe not every hunter is always all that careful all the time.

    Granted, its possible more people get hurt mountain biking, but I don't have those stats. However, I would argure that definitely the MAJORITY really are self-inflicted, and if I had to arbitrarily pick a # of how many, my guess would be 99%, with MAYBE 1% due to someone colliding with someone else. Of the injuries though, I'd be curious to know how many mountaing bike accidents involved hospitalization versus hunting accidents involving hospitalization. I'd also be curious to know how many off road mountain biking accidents involved fatalities, just in PA alone.

    You also keep making comparisons of hunting to mountain biking. As I've shown, more people get injured or killed by others hunting than self-inflicted (as you claimed). I don't have the empirical data on mountain biking, but mountain biking seems to involve risk that the rider assumes for himself, where-as those with hunting involve SOMEONE ELSE causing the accident (ie shooting another person, as opposed to falling off my bike, etc).

    Knock on wood, I've been mountain biking since '87, including racing xc and downhill for many years (when I last raced, several years ago, I was in the expert cat in both classes). My only real injury involved a slow speed crash at a dh-specific place, where I flipped over the bars and hit my face on a rock. At the time, I wasn't wearing my full-face (it was a brutally hot day, and chose to not wear it). I didn't hit hard, but hard enough to cut my face just above my lip and could've used stitches, but instead cleaned it up, put a band-aid on it, and kept riding the rest of the day. I've got a tiny scar to show for it (about a 1/4" long) and if I don't shave for 2 days you won't notice it.

    I tell this story simply because mountain biking for me has never been what I'd call "dangerous". I ride some hairy trails, and occasionally ride over my limit, and taken a spill here and there. But I don't ride because its "macho", nor do most of my friends. I wouldn't even consider it a "macho" sport, but then, what is? I would also argue that a lot of early mountain bikers didn't get into or create the sport to be macho. Some certainly, but others did it for a sense of freedom, not to overcome or take risks or whatever it is you're using to define macho. For many, being out on the trails riding a bike is significantly safer than doing a lot of other things. Thrown in the unpredictability of others shooting guns, no matter how careful the majority are, and its a little less safe. So one day a week during hunting season isn't a huge thing to ask, it seems to me.

    Link from where I got my stats:
    http://www.ihea.com/documents/2004_report.pdf

    which is from the International Hunter Education Association.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kline
    ...in late November and early December. The amount of hikers and bikers in the woods at these times is like twenty, state wide.
    There will be more than 20 rider and 20 hikers within 10 miles of my Central PA home this Sunday. Around here we do not let cold & snow stop us from riding and hiking. And based on the times I've ridden in Maryland, I would disagree with the assement of 20 for that State too.
    Last edited by Raymo853; 11-20-2005 at 03:38 AM.

  13. #13
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    In PA non-hunters killed by hunters is extremely rare.
    Most hunters are killed at close range by a shotgun rather than by a rifle at a distance.
    During small game and especially turkey season hunters wear camo and conceal themselves in cover.
    Idiots shoot into the cover thinking there is a turkey there without first identifying the target.

    Fatalities in hunting are caused by heart attacks, falling from tree stands, accidental gun discharges,
    being mistaken for game and (extremely rare) a stray bullet.

    Of all the hunting fatalities in PA I'm not aware of any bikers or hikers being killed by hunters.
    The chances of a biker getting killed by a hunter is extremely low as compared to the odds of a biker getting killed by a motorist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verewolf
    In PA non-hunters killed by hunters is extremely rare.
    Most hunters are killed at close range by a shotgun rather than by a rifle at a distance.

    Actually, according to the stats for 2004 listed at http://www.ihea.com/documents/2004_report.pdf, of the 4 fatalities in PA, 2 were from shotguns and 2 were from rifles. More non-fatal injuries were from shotguns, yes, 30 from shotguns versus 21 from rifles, with the rest being bows, crossbows, handguns, and "other". It doesn't list circumstances for any of them, though I'd guess more likely other hunters involved rather than bikers/etc, though I've got no stats for this.

    However, I would note that you are more likely to get shot on a day hunting is allowed than on a day hunting is not allowed, and the odds of getting killed by a motorist while mountain biking in the woods is probably fairly low, but I'm just guessing with this one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by neveride
    However, I would note that you are more likely to get shot on a day hunting is allowed than on a day hunting is not allowed, and the odds of getting killed by a motorist while mountain biking in the woods is probably fairly low, but I'm just guessing with this one.
    or how about......................
    you are more likely to get killed on a day hunting is allowed than on a day hunting is not allowed by lightning,
    and the odds of getting killed by an animal is higher than the odds of getting killed by a hunter.

  16. #16
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    [QUOTE=neveride]I couldn't find a more recent listing of hunting accidents than 2004, but just taking into consideration PA, which at a quick glance looks like it actually had the most hunting accidents that year (I didn't count the amount in other states, but a quick glance seems its likely), they recorded 55 hunting accidents. To be fair, only 4 were fatal.

    However, only 12 of the 55 were self-inflicted. I don't know about other states, but in PA, the MAJORITY of hunting accidents are NOT self-inflicted, as you claim.

    Of the 43 accidents that were NOT self-inflicted, the "major factor" (from listing) seems to mostly be split between "failure to identify", "failure to check beyond target", and "victim out of sight" (all phrases from stat pages). The site does not list what the victims were doing when shot, so its possible they could be fellow hunters as well as other outdoorsmen (including hikers and bikers). But it does show that hunting accidents happen, most are NOT self-inflicted, and maybe not every hunter is always all that careful all the time.

    Yes those numbers are true, however, most self inflicted injuries are not reported at all. This seems to stem from either embarrassment, or not wanting to deal with game officers.
    So, you do have to factor that into it, just like they factor the deer kill. Some do not report their kills either. And the commission must estimate these two totals. I don't know where your from, I do know that here in upper Cambria County, that the population is pretty slim compared to other areas in the State. Also, most hunters in this area have seen myself, or the other riders in the area. We always stop and communicate with these guys so they have an idea where we are going. I guess it all just depends on numerous factors, whether you feel safe or not. I avoid Gamelands and public parks, because of the massive amount of private lands in the area.
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    I'm also more likely to successfully win the whole MASS series than i am for mtn bikers to say hi to me on the trail, ask how they can help, ask to join a club, consistently do trail maintenance and show the world the love they have for the sport.


    sorry, had to throw that around

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kline
    ......I do know that here in upper Cambria County.........
    I'm originally from East Conemaugh. (just had to throw that in there)
    ________________________________________________

    Back to the subject of Sunday Hunting:

    My outdoor activities in order of hours spent are: 1) Biking 2) Fishing 3) Hunting

    As far as Sunday hunting on State Game Lands goes - it should be allowed on Sundays.
    These lands were paid for by hunters and not bikers, hikers, snowmobilers, etc.
    The Game Commission and not the legislature should make the decision on the usage of these lands.

    If Sunday hunting is not permitted on other hunting areas such as State Forest or State Parks I could care less.
    It's public land and it's for everyones use.

    I regards to:
    Quote Originally Posted by Hackamo
    There will be some good news onthe state wide group officially forming PERMANENTLY(KMBA.....Keystone Mountain Bike Association) we will have someone dedicated to soley look at legislation, bills on the floor etc. they have iformed me sunday hunting may never get passed.
    Instead of being concerned with Sunday Hunting KMBA should be more concerned with this-


    I am sick and tired of seeing these signs on public land.
    Rather than worry about not being able to bike on a few Sundays a year due to hunting
    KMBA should be more concerned with the hundreds of miles of public land we cannot bike on 365 days a year.
    Go to State Parks, State Forest and other public lands and you will see the signs "NO BIKING" signs.
    It's public land and I should be able to ride my bike there.
    I hope KMBA considers this a priority issue more important than than Sunday hunting.

    Also what can you tell me about KMBA:
    How many members does KMBA have?
    And how much PAC money does KMBA have?
    This IS Pennsylvania and politicians could care less about our concerns regarding MTBing.
    That is - unless you can dump some money into their campaign. Then they care.

  19. #19
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    Verewolf: 5 years ago i would of spent all winter trying to go back and forth but i've learned. Here's what i've learned:

    -Hunters deserve to hunt
    -bikers deserve to bike
    -hunters have been organized for about 100 years
    -bikers have been organized........I'm still waiting
    -hunters are proactive
    -bikers are reactive(i will change that, trust me)
    -hunters have lobbyists
    -bikers hang out in lobby's taking a break from riding
    -PGC is the second largest land owner in PA
    -bikers don't even own land
    -Hunters AND bikers are led to beleive that SGL's are soley paid for by hunter's monies.(hek, they better be going to paying for that land or some commissioners are livin' fat and happy)
    -a large portion of the land the PGC "owns" is donated by private land owners and conservancies and other groups trying to preserve that land. ( which i commend and respect)
    -Pittman Robertson Funds(funds that were perceived by the public to be at risk if they didn't contain the recreation problem) were never at risk. I called the government run org myself 2 years ago and they had no mention of any problems with PA.
    -quote from the Pittman Fund website (well pretty close) "95% of use of hunting lands are used by other forms of recreation
    -That's the real reason you see those no bikig signs is b/c they knew they had to have a recreation plan in place to receive the funds(10% of their income)so do it then i/o now
    -most hunters, and game officials i've observed and talked to could care less about mtn bikes, it's motorized vehicles that's the problem
    -most mtn bikers i've talked to think they have equal rights to sgl lands, but i beleive we have to earn our way there.

    ---------
    -most hunters are good people and give a crap
    -most hunting advocates are begging hunters to help out other than hunting and no one shows up
    -most hunters are 5th and 6th generation hunters and blue collar people just trying to enjoy the few days they can get away from "the man"
    -most bikers are 1st or 2nd generation riders and also can't way to get away from "the man"
    -some bikers and hunters are secretly "the man"
    -bikers won't go out and help unless it's their backyard trail that illegally built and now a builder just bought the land
    ---------

    -if a trail is closed down to mtn bikes on state parks etc it's because there is no mtn bike club/dedicated people to educate park managers.
    -bikes have and do not cause any more erosion than a boy scout troop on a day hike
    -bad trails cause erosion EVERY TIME

    ---------
    -kmba will never solve anyone's problems
    -kmba will be created by those who are passionate about the sport no matter where a trail is, but kmba will only thrive if individuals put their efforts behind it.


    verewolf, you sound like you get it, but so do I, and when hunters come across with attitudes like bikers who really don't know either.............then i have other things to do like help create a club, help local riders to keep land to ride on . If you want i can give you my paypal and send a donation to kmba, we're building the website and could use a little biker cash

    good luck

    posted a pick from south of MOAB, someday people from the west will plunk down 3,000 to ride in PA(i dont' care if your a mtn biker or hunter, tourism money helps everyone)
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hackamo
    .........................then i have other things to do like help create a club, help local riders to keep land to ride on . If you want i can give you my paypal and send a donation to kmba, we're building the website and could use a little biker cash .................................
    Nice post! Well written!

    Whether State Game Land was donated or purchased it was accomplished with money from hunters.
    Hunters not only pay an absolutely outrageous amount for their hunting licenses
    but also pay a tax (in addition to a sales tax) on their hunting equipment.

    I absolutely positively do not understand the reasoning behind closing trails to bikers
    in State Parks, Forest and other public lands.
    Most of these closed areas were once open to bikers.

    I would have no problem donating to KMBA once I am certain we share the same goals and objectives.
    However well-intentioned the agenda of KMBA is - I am still a hunter - and if KMBA takes a position
    opposing Sunday hunting on State Game Lands I would not be able to offer any support.

    Keep us updated on the progress of the organization and its website.

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    Hackamoe, Thanks for changing the tone of this thread towards the right direction. I am interested in the direction(s) KMBA can take and interested in helping. But I am also w/ Verewolf: I cannot support if opposition to sunday hunting is on the platform.

    I feel this issue should be seperated down:
    Sunday hunting on GAMELANDS is not an issue for biker's, hiker's, birdwatcher's, etc. to be involved with... If biker's put their noses into this they will surely get swatted and cause some continued tensions... And continue to weaken relations by opposing a hunter's search for more freedoms while we would try to gain/ increase access and usage? Not gonna happen.

    Statewide hunting- IMO- Should be considered on the landowners/managers own discretion. Just the same as they can close it to biking all the time, they should be able to open it to hunting on Sunday's..This is were the arguement should lie and were efforts should be focused. How to go about that I'm not quite sure. Organization is the best start point.

    Other avenues/ways of support/oppsition should be explored...

    Dangers of hunting- Please be informed and go on living your lives.
    Be certain of the true dangers- Is your grip tape in place? Safety bars? Every morning you go to that most terrible, dangerous place: the shower. There you can slip and fall, crack your head and die. In the comfort of your own home. Everyday.

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    Why can't hunters simply stay on their precious gamelands all of the time? That should get some interesting responses....

    I would support a biker license to ride in the gamelands in certain times of the year. That would help pay for those precious lands, and help keep the PGC solvent. Wasn't there some news last year that the PGC was having cash problems? I would also trade trail maintenance for gamelands access.

    Maybe hackamoe can answer this: aren't federal $ involved in the Pittman Robertson funds received by the PGC? If that's correct, then as a non-hunter I'm already contributing to PGC & gameland funding.

    I would still like to see sunday hunting off limits in state parks and state forests. For all the chatter about risk, I feel pretty safe when riding on weekends this time of year. It's easy, I don't ride trails on Saturdays.

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    look, for my own sanity unless we're actually doing something about this let's move on(just joking, but i rode tonight and i couldn't even focus on riding)

    seriously though, Federal funds(PR funds) are monies generated from the sale of hunting related items. Each state gets a portion and PA's is about 10% of their operation budget. Small but i'm sure would be something they don't need gone.

    I can't tell anyone what to say, but let's lay off the bashing. Let the hunters do it all and trust me i spent 3 months 2 years ago watching www.huntingpa.com and trying to convince them of our legitimacy and i ended up where i started. Trust me when i say that PA hunters have more distaste for the PGC than any other user group. good or bad, it's a lose/lose situation.

    I don't care which side you look at this it's a slippery slope on both sides. Honestly the "designated trails" thing is a joke. 30 foot wide fireroads is equivelant to hunting in a wal-mart parking lot(which isn't bad b/c you can go in quick and re-load) if you allow alternate uses(stop thinking just mtn bikes, everyone wants to use them) then it could be a mad rush or it could be what i think: just legitimate users already using the land respectfully like they always have.

    What the PGC did in my opinion that was irresponsible was to not consider to overall impact of what they did.......essentially moving users to other spots they did exactly what they proclaimed they were stopping: high impact on their lands. See it's really PA's lands which includes everything DCNR PGC, private etc. We all have an impact on eachother. I know there has been an increase on alterante spots around game lands. Here in jim thorpe, it's essentially done. Sure riders hit american standard but there's actually better stuff around, but the impact is still felt. That's one of the reasons we look for more trails to responsibly spread users around.

    Here's my pro-hunter side: Why not let them use other lands. We pay taxes for public schools but some go to private. There is deer issues in some areas. Whether you fall on the left or right of Deer management, controlling the herd must be a priority.

    If hunters are smart they will partner with other groups b/c someday they will need their voice(stoney valley, route 99 etc), but don't denounce my group b/c we have a particular opinion. Sometimes certain hunters come off a little arrogant about their lineage of hunters. Well take away the deer hunting and it would all fall apart. Sure there are true wildlife enthusiasts, hek not all mtn bikers care about the beautiful singletrack they ride on, but a majority of hunters.........hunt! No problem with that, just accept it and move on. It's taken me 5 years to accept that most bikers.........bike.

    kmba is not official yet and doesn't have an official response. Just b/c i don't agree or differe in opnion don't blame me of being "anti" anything. Maybe if we stop labeling eachother in the first 20 seconds maybe we could actually move forward.

    SEE THE ANSWER IS ALWAYS IN THE MIDDLE.

  24. #24
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    Wrong.

    [QUOTE=
    -bikers don't even own land

    This statement is untrue. I own land and my family owns land. All total around 100 acres. I'm a third generation farm boy, that works for the man. And every parcel that we have contains some really sweet singletrack, built by yours truly. The neighboring farms which contain thousands of arces, also have sweet singletrack, built by myself. Friendy farmers don't give a rats ass about bike trails. "Just don't cut down any marketable timber" they say. The problem up here in the highlands, is finding guys willing to take time out to slash, rake, and push wheelbarrows around. Sometimes I take a month off riding just to build a new connection. Move out of the city guys. Your elbow room, and clashes with prick landowners will cease. Then again some ride for exercise, and some ride as a way of life. I believe its a way of life for me.
    Bliss is thumping the prophet through the woods, as "Painkiller " wails through your phones. Ride a metal monster.

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    i meant a group of mtn bikers or an organization.

    mike, where's your trails. Maybe you can contact Karl, the western imba rep or Mike with Laurel Highlands mountain bike club



    seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, we all need to band together so we can help eachother out.

  26. #26
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    sure

    Quote Originally Posted by Hackamo
    i meant a group of mtn bikers or an organization.

    mike, where's your trails. Maybe you can contact Karl, the western imba rep or Mike with Laurel Highlands mountain bike club



    seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, we all need to band together so we can help eachother out.
    Sure thing, I've got a few guys up here in coal county willing to network. I live in Elmora, three miles west of Carrolltown, Twenty-five miles north of Johnstown, and there is nothing up this way at all. I can hop on the old RR tracks and travel 30 miles in one direction and only cross pavement. We also have the Rock run recreation area starting up soon. It's located on RTE 36 north of Seldom Seen Valley Coal Mine. This area is dead, and devoid of jobs. This is the heart of the rust belt. I'll contact Karl you want to be go between? Or give me a link?
    Bliss is thumping the prophet through the woods, as "Painkiller " wails through your phones. Ride a metal monster.

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    Hackmo

    Thank you sir, I'll be on it.
    Bliss is thumping the prophet through the woods, as "Painkiller " wails through your phones. Ride a metal monster.

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    If you can get KMBA structured with some potential for staying power, I will gladly support it with a membership, or donation of some sort. I am a strong supporter of cycling in central PA, where we have a pretty good thing going.

    The origination of this thread is important. Raymo started the thread to support the continued ban on Sunday hunting. If you want to start an alternate thread, go ahead.

    This time of year my schedule pretty much converges on sunday being the only day that I have a reasonable shot (no pun intended) at getting out on a mountain bike. I do not like riding trails during hunting season so I generally stay off trails during most of the autumn hunting seasons. I also try to ride the road bike on saturday mornings so I'll admit that I'm not all that worried about not riding trail on saturdays.

    I know enough hunters to know when these seasons are in. Even if hunting is such a safe sport, it's unpredictable. And while we've had some argue that the odds are that it's safe, there is no statistical relationship between past safety and the possibility that the next accident will not involve me, or one of my kids. Also, an error on the bike is generally the fault of the rider, or a combination of the rider and unpredictable terrain. If you have an unfortunate outcome with a hunter, it's most likely going to be due to an error on the hunter's part. Unless you blame the rider for riding into the path of the bullet....

    Yes, I've come across hunters out there. Sometimes it's a pleasant encounter of people enjoying the outdoors. Other times it's obvious that I've lessened their hunting experience by riding my bike into the area where they're hunting. Same thing happens with hikers and equestrians--some encounters are good, some aren't. Although pointing out that you helped build or maintain a trail goes a long way towards improving any encounter.

    I lost all respect for the PGC a few years ago when they instituted the ban. But they controlled the situation and didn't want to listen to anyone. If hunting is so important that it needs to take place on Sunday, at least keep it in the gamelands.

  30. #30
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    well then, i will try and stay on track.

    my reccomendations:
    -sunday hunting allowed in more remote SGL's. not much chance for conflict b/c of population
    -no sunday hunting in "hot spots" i.e. harrisburg, lancaster, jim thorpe, allentown etc.
    -sunday hunting allowed during the main deer season coming up rest of year it's not allowed.

    sounds like a win/win to me

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by OMFlyer
    Why can't hunters simply stay on their precious gamelands all of the time? That should get some interesting responses....
    Yeah that would get you some interesting responses if you said it to a hunter.
    You'd probably hear something like, "Why can't bikers simply stay on their precious roads all the time and out of our game lands?"

    Quote Originally Posted by OMFlyer
    would support a biker license to ride in the gamelands in certain times of the year. That would help pay for those precious lands, and help keep the PGC solvent. Wasn't there some news last year that the PGC was having cash problems? I would also trade trail maintenance for gamelands access.
    Or - a license to operate a bike and a license plate for your bike.
    With the funds used to create and maintain bike riding areas.
    Hope I never see the day that happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by OMFlyer
    Maybe hackamoe can answer this: aren't federal $ involved in the Pittman Robertson funds received by the PGC? If that's correct, then as a non-hunter I'm already contributing to PGC & gameland funding.
    Let's clear up this Pittman Robertson Funds thing.
    The monies in this fund are derived as follows:

    "The monies to be used in this assistance is the excise tax of 11% on bows and arrows and parts and accessories, and the excise tax of 10% on pistols and revolvers and the 11% on firearms, other than pistols and revolvers, and shells and cartridges. Any monies appropriated to any state by the Interior Department, must be used in two years and if not used, reverts to the Interior Department to carry out the provision of the Migratory Bird Conservation Act. (Sec. 669b)"

    So unless you are a hunter you contribute nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by OMFlyer
    I would still like to see sunday hunting off limits in state parks and state forests.
    I have no problem with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hackamo
    my reccomendations:
    -sunday hunting allowed in more remote SGL's. not much chance for conflict b/c of population
    -no sunday hunting in "hot spots" i.e. harrisburg, lancaster, jim thorpe, allentown etc.
    -sunday hunting allowed during the main deer season coming up rest of year it's not allowed.

    sounds like a win/win to me
    It's not a win/win.
    Sunday hunting should be allowed on ALL State Game Lands.
    As far as allowing Sunday hunting in NON State Game Lands goes I could care less.
    The Sunday hunting thing is NOT a big issue with me or the hunters I know.
    It will be a big issue when associations such as KMBA and other groups make it an issue.
    Then you can count on the wrath of hunters and their well organized associations
    to come at you. The results will be a lose/lose for everyone involved.

    What happens with Sunday hunting will happen regardless of the action bikers take.
    KMBA should be well advised to stay out of this one and direct their energies to more important issues.
    The first rule of any organization in achieving their goals and objectives is to form coalitions.
    Why go out of your way to make hunters your enemy when they can be a powerful coalition partner.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verewolf
    Let's clear up this Pittman Robertson Funds thing.
    The monies in this fund are derived as follows:

    "The monies to be used in this assistance is the excise tax of 11% on bows and arrows and parts and accessories, and the excise tax of 10% on pistols and revolvers and the 11% on firearms, other than pistols and revolvers, and shells and cartridges. Any monies appropriated to any state by the Interior Department, must be used in two years and if not used, reverts to the Interior Department to carry out the provision of the Migratory Bird Conservation Act. (Sec. 669b)"

    So unless you are a hunter you contribute nothing.
    Correct those not purchasing fire arms or bows do not contribute to the the Pittman Robertson funds. However the P-R funds in no way support the PA State Gamelands alone. Also not everyone purchasing firearms and bows are hunters. In PA the State Gamelands do not have to pay local property taxes as do PA State forest, PA BMR lands, ... Therefore if you live in an area with SGL and you do not hunt the SGL are subsidized by your property taxes. Therefore you have rights to that publicly held land.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raymo853
    However the P-R funds in no way support the PA State Gamelands alone. Also not everyone purchasing firearms and bows are hunters.
    I stand corrected - I falsely assumed almost everyone who purchases the above is a hunter. Probably not.

    Here is what the PR Funds are to be used for:

    "The intent of the act is to conserve and manage wild birds and mammals, and to enhance the safety, marksmanship and sportsmanship with firearms and bows and arrows. Therefore, in 1937 Congress enacted specific legislation to provide funds to states to carry out these programs. By law, (16 USCA 669a-i) the Interior Department is authorized to cooperate with the various states in wildlife restoration projects and hunter education, provided that the various states assent to the Federal provisions and pass laws for the conservation of wildlife, which will include a prohibition against the diversion of license fees paid by hunters for any purpose other than the administration of the State Fish and Game Department. (Sec. 669)"

    AND -

    "Under the above laws the selection, planning, and execution of wildlife restoration projects, and of hunter safety programs including the construction, operation and maintenance of target ranges, are the responsibility of the State Fish and Game Department. The funds are not directly available to individuals, local governments, or sportsmen's organizations; however, State Fish and Game Departments may enter into a third party agreement with a club or even a commercial range to conduct hunter training programs, including the construction or improvements of the target range facilities being used. There are various alternatives for providing the 25% of the total cost not reimbursed Federally, including the recognition of contributions provided in kind, such as land, building materials and equipment, but not labor."

    Let's drop this entire thing with PR Funds. It's totally irrelevant re: Sunday hunting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymo853
    In PA the State Gamelands do not have to pay local property taxes as do PA State forest, PA BMR lands, ... Therefore if you live in an area with SGL and you do not hunt the SGL are subsidized by your property taxes. Therefore you have rights to that publicly held land.
    I'm not saying you are wrong but I'd like to see proof to the above.
    And again, what does this have to do with Sunday hunting?
    It's like - if you can find one penny of public money being used in connection with SGLs
    then everyone has a say on Sunday hunting on SGLs.

    If these are the arguements (PR Funds and "I pay taxes") some MTBers plan on using
    in opposition of Sunday hunting - Good Luck!

    Pick and choose your battles. You can win a battle but lose the war.
    If the KMBA takes a position against Sunday hunting, and whether or not it passes or fails,
    there will be some dire consequences to follow.

    Right now KMBA is just getting started and is not on the radar screen of some
    state-wide powerful established associations with financial backing.

    Why go out of your way to incur the wrath of hunters, local sportsmen's clubs,
    the PA Fed. of Sportsmen and yes, even the NRA. Why not form a coalition with these groups
    and work on a compromise that everyone can support and live with.

    Lastly I have a good bit more to add but I hate looooong posts so I'll stop.

  34. #34
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    verewolf said
    What happens with Sunday hunting will happen regardless of the action bikers take.
    KMBA should be well advised to stay out of this one and direct their energies to more important issues.
    The first rule of any organization in achieving their goals and objectives is to form coalitions.
    Why go out of your way to make hunters your enemy when they can be a powerful coalition partner.
    -------------------------

    first off KMBA doesn't have a stance. individuals have posted their opinions.

    SECONDLY, don't threaten me or an organization. i respect your posting here and it's your right, BUT don't threaten me by saying i won't have a partner in the PGC. Your not helping the situation by posting the above comments.

    Here's how i perceive what you say:
    "don't piss us off, or you will pay the consequences, you should trying to be friendly with us"

    again, good luck. It's a shame that if you ever disagree with someone on a TOPIC your portrayed as be anti-against everything!!!

    see you on the trail, hopefully it's a legal trail.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hackamo
    first off KMBA doesn't have a stance. individuals have posted their opinions.

    SECONDLY, don't threaten me or an organization. i respect your posting here and it's your right, BUT don't threaten me by saying i won't have a partner in the PGC. Your not helping the situation by posting the above comments.
    There was absolutely NO THREAT! If you took what I posted as a threat I apologize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hackamo
    Here's how i perceive what you say:
    "don't piss us off, or you will pay the consequences, you should trying to be friendly with us"
    Your perception of what I said is totally wrong. Or perhaps I failed to explain my thoughts correctly.
    If that's the case, I again apologize for my poor communication skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hackamo
    again, good luck. It's a shame that if you ever disagree with someone on a TOPIC your portrayed as be anti-against everything!!!
    I don't know where you came up with, "anti-against everything".
    Never said that or even intended to say that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hackamo
    see you on the trail, hopefully it's a legal trail.
    Fine! I'm outta here.
    Even though I apparently must have ruined your day
    I hope the remainder of your day is more pleasant!

    Goodbye!

  36. #36
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    One thing, in no way do I or my posting or my letters represent KMBA. My starting of this thread was 100% just me.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verewolf
    Of all the hunting fatalities in PA I'm not aware of any bikers or hikers being killed by hunters.
    A couple of trophy cars were taken of the state roads over the last few years though. Would be nice to have a Toyota or Chevy hanging on the wall of the den I'd imagine.
    .
    Raspberries, nature's poison ivy bait. (Formerly, 'Stops to eat the raspberries.')

  38. #38
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    off to go weekly fixed gear rides, then i'm drooping off tree stands to donate to youth hunters.

    then again, people just perceive us to be "anti's"

    this isn't a jab, i'm just past the point of trying to prove myself.


    i challenge PGC officials to answer to people on forums

  39. #39
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    Well how about this: Many people I know (non-hunters) respect the hunters and stay out of the woods during the hunting seasons by only going out on Sundays. Now implement Sunday hunting and many of these people may just say screw it and go out any day of the week. That could mean that there would be more potential for conflict. Will the hunters really like dealing with a non-hunter strolling past their hunting spot?

  40. #40
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    Exactly!

  41. #41
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    Actually the biggest conflict may be between farmers and hunters. As an ag extnesion agent I was surprised how many farmers I've heard rail against Sunday hunting more than any bike, hike or horse group. Pretty much if it comes to be, you should expect to see lots of No Hunting Signs everywhere. And I mean No Hunting signs not No Sunday Hunting signs.

  42. #42
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    before hunters or anyone for that matter passes judgments on bikers(i'm biker's biggest critic, but i will protect with just as much passion) i met with our local PGC conservation officer and after i gave him the tree stands he gave me a book on the past 100 yrs of the PGC. I'm already through the first chapter.


    knowledge is power.

    I've grown up trying to emulate those which i respect.

  43. #43
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    I got response letters from my PA Rep, Lynn Herman and PA Senator, Jake Corman.

    Rep Herman was not the typical form letter I expected form a politician, he expressed an opinion!! He was, as I am, opposed to expanding hunting to Sundays. Lynn Herman has been involved in the public hearings run by the Game & Fisheries Committee even though he is not a member of that committee. He was going to make sure to forward my letter on to the chair of the committee Republican Rep Bruce Smith.
    http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/...trictnumber=92


    Senator Jake Corman’s letter was also not a form letter, however, he did not offer an opinion. He mentioned my concerns would better be addressed to the House, since they are the body currently considering a bill on this issue. He mentioned the current bill, HB 904, was introduced in March by the minority chair of the House Game & Fisheries Committee, Democrat Edward Staback.
    http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI...5/0/HB0904.HTM

    Based on who introduced and co-signed this bill, I am more hopeful this bill will never leave the committee. Democrats are obviously the party more strongly supporting opening Sundays and as long as they are in the minority, the issues will probably not move to the floor for a vote.

  44. #44
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    One way to look at this...

    Most of what mountain bikers are dealt is because of our group's apathy as a whole. I've spent hundreds of hours building, maintaining, and coordinating trail developement with local authorities. Local riders ride and enjoy these trails. When it comes time to organize and work with the local authorities to preserve and maintain existing trails those local riders are nowhere to be found. There are enough channels through which mountain bikers could aquire adequate voice in local and state decision making arenas. Unfortunately, from what I've seen (and I've been riding for about 15 years), I have come to believe the decisions made that adversely affect us are just what we deserve. We deserve it because we let it happen. I do appreciate and respect the efforts of those very few who actively try to make a difference. Hopefully more will join the cause.

    This issue with Sunday hunting is an example of how a focused group (ie hunters) can create change to better their own interests. Mountain bikers should be taking notes.

  45. #45
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    Sunday hunting, People did not want it.

    I watched the committee hearings on TV. It was last spring/summer, can't remember exactly, but they had a study that polled user groups, and the plurality of the responses was no Sunday hunting. I was shocked, by vast majority of private land owners said no, and if Sunday hunting was passed, they would post their land for all days. The individual hunters, said no, citing religious reasons.
    What I learned, was that just because some pepole want it, others do not, and the one REP. reminded us that the PGC is not really for it, as they are already stretched for resources, and to add Sunday as another day to patrol would not be easy.

  46. #46
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    Miker J, with all the work that you've done, i'd love to share it with other clubs. Have we talked before???

  47. #47
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    I don't know...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hackamo
    Miker J, with all the work that you've done, i'd love to share it with other clubs. Have we talked before???
    Feel free to pm me. Currently I'm in Northcentral PA.

    Mike

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    Wow- what a topic. Here is how I see it...hunters should be able to hunt on SGL whenever they want- the trade off is that land that is not SGL and not privately owned cannot be hunted on. Privately held land will be at the discression of the landowner. The only reason there is fear about being in the woods when hunting seasion is on has to do with the fact that hunters are carring with them tools (guns, bows, whatever) with one purpose-to end a life. There is no other outdoor activity that can do such a thing to another user group. And to the point of move out of the cities- not practical. How can everyone make a living without living in close proximity to one another? I did the 1+hour commute to the city for almost 7 years and never want to go back to losing 6 weeks of my life in the car annually.

  49. #49
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    As many of you know today is the first day of the main deer harvest. Over 70% of all deer are taken today of which approximately 30% are taken by the time you get this email. Please show respect to all hunters and allow them to enjoy the sport they love so much. Here are the list of hunting spots we ride


    Jacobsburg Park: allows hunting in designated area
    -be aware where those spots are, I’ve run into hunters running along the trails looking for deer
    -the trails are pretty wet today as well
    Jordan Park: hunting only by permit and bow only

    Bear Creek: no hunting allowed to public but local residents are frequent users of the area
    Emmaus: no hunting but poachers may be present
    Lehigh: no hunting but poachers have known to be there
    Salisbury: hunting only by permit but will probably be crowded today
    Jim Thorpe: just stay away in general


    Thanks for your patience and respect for the sport of hunting, the hunters and most importantly, the trails.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by dankilling
    Here is how I see it...hunters should be able to hunt on SGL whenever they want-

    Why????

    State gamelands belongs to the state, not to a specific group of people. I pay state taxes, so why should this land belong to an exclusive group of people for their own purposes and not for mine?

    In this "let's all get along" atmosphere, questions like this, while they may be unpopular, must be asked.

    SGL do NOT belong to the hunters!

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianthebiker
    Why????

    State gamelands belongs to the state, not to a specific group of people. I pay state taxes, so why should this land belong to an exclusive group of people for their own purposes and not for mine?

    In this "let's all get along" atmosphere, questions like this, while they may be unpopular, must be asked.

    SGL do NOT belong to the hunters!
    To answer your question- I believe others just don't wanna bother with this basic one- SGL DOES belong to the hunters. Hence the name: State GAME Lands. They bought the land primarily through license fees- not general fund taxpayers monies.

    The "let's all get along" attitude can be used w/ General funded DCNR lands: State PArks and State Forests and others.

    Your "unpopular" question would really not sit well w/ a bunch of pissed off hunters and their problem w/ a lack of deer right now....But that's not an issue here.

    brianthebiker: you may wanna start at the beginning of this discussion....
    But I hope this helps?

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raymo853
    Actually the biggest conflict may be between farmers and hunters. As an ag extnesion agent I was surprised how many farmers I've heard rail against Sunday hunting more than any bike, hike or horse group. Pretty much if it comes to be, you should expect to see lots of No Hunting Signs everywhere. And I mean No Hunting signs not No Sunday Hunting signs.
    I have heard the same thing from a hunter/casual rider that I work with.

    I've also asked the same hunter/rider why hunters can't just stay on the game lands. His answer is that there's not any game left on the game lands!

  53. #53
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    AFter reading the first half of the "Pennsylvania Game Commission, the last 100 years" it's interesting how the SGL's have come into existence.

    in the late 1800's the PGC was funded by the state for 800.00/year for postage, that's it, but after a few years it grew to 12,000.00. They only had a handful of game officers. Anyway, technically the PGC got it's start from public money. This isn't to discredit them just trying to be fair about the discussion.

    SGL's are technically "special use" lands. Like most situations it's no soley or even primarily liscence fees. Yes many monies do come from that. Unfortunately the PGC is hand tied b/c by law they only can pay 400.00/acre which shuts them out of many deals. The real funding behind SGL's are groups like conservancy groups who raise money to buy the land, then gift it to the PGC. Why, b/c they know the land will be preserved. I actually admire that. Also many landowners donate land for preservation. The point is it's a cooperative effort. People who come on and shout "it's all paid for by hunters" is not entirely a true statement. It's paid for by hunters and those who have a vested interest in wildife conservation. Again, a very noble cause.

    The problem mtn bikers and other users run into is that they aren't part of the mission statement. The other problem is the PGC is the second biggest land owner in PA (2.4 mil acres) and the PGC is the second at around 1.5 mil acres. That's why hunting is so popular. The other problem the pgc faces is not like other states, PA has 1,000,000 hunters and other states have much less, so the demand is very high and the supply is a challenge.


    The PGC has a very vital role and that is to protect and prosper out wildlife. PA used to have an abundance of elk, bison, buffalo, prairie chicken pigeon, chucker, quail etc. One thing to thank the PGC is for preserving our land and that's a reason to stand next to them and fight.

    BUT
    for the PGC to essentially ignore the fact that others use SGL's in a recreational way disturbs me. You can have a state park right next to a SGL , both would allow hunting but both manage that property in a very different way. I'm not saying that the PGC is wrong, but the answer is having a balance. To tell us "hey, we designated trails" and put green signs on 30 foot wide service roads is embarassing being a PA resident. it's equivelant to putting a hunter in a paved parking lot and saying"but this parking lot is just for you to hunt on".

    I firmly beleive their should be a PENNSYLVANIA GAME AND RECREATION COMMISSION. I realize it's like asking the hatfields and McCoys to live in the same room, but our land is our responsibility to preserve.

    Do i think there should be a trail everywhere? NO, but trails are the vital link for the public to see the resource we want them to protect. Built correctly a trail can control and minimize impact and provide a great experience of why it's great to live in PA.

    it's only gonna happen if we make this happen.


    Fact:
    in the mid 1800's the passenger pigeon was one of the most plentiful birds numbering in the millions. Some accounts have them flying in masses from 12:30 until 4:30pm darkening the sky. in the late 1800's they were down to a handful. Why? Indians had been raiding their roosts before we came over, then once we got here; once transportation improved it brought pressure on hunting the birds. The pigeon meat could be shipped quicker to cities, telegraph could communicate quicker on the bird's movements and trains could bring in "market hunters" which brought hundreds of mens to kill birds for business. Another factor was deforestation and demand for timber and increasing farmlands which destroyed their roosts, and in the end completely wiping out the population.

    See we all live together in this state all having an effect on eachother. Until we get out of the mindset of worrying about our own issues, we will always be dealing with our own issues. We need to all come to the table and find a balance.

    good night.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by OMFlyer
    I have heard the same thing from a hunter/casual rider that I work with.

    I've also asked the same hunter/rider why hunters can't just stay on the game lands. His answer is that there's not any game left on the game lands!
    Wow...interesting. I havent heard that one yet. As for the 'no game left on gamelands' how is it that PA has one of the highest deer densities, and was #1 in deer-auto hits last year? Something just doesnt jive with both statements- and only the actual counts are verifiable.

    Dont get me wrong, Im not anti-hunting, I just cant agree with the idea that just because it is hunting season I should not have a single day out of the week to be able to enjoy the activity I choose. I also cant agree with the idea that SGL should be hunting-only- the GL were originally created out of the interest for preserving habitiat and conservation of native flora and fauna. If this is truly the mission of what these lands are for, why not allow other outdoor enthusiasts access to INCREASE the purchasing (and lobbying) power of all outdoor prusuits? At the end of the day, when the land is developed (and it will be), we all lose out.

  55. #55
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    It's simply a note from a conversation we had at work.

    I work with a couple of hunters, neither of which can understand why the PGC would ban bikes from the SGL. One of them rides a bit, the other one does not.

    There have been complaints of a thin deer herd the last few years. I think it was in the Dubois area that some guides were upset with the herd management, and they were complaining of not enough deer being available to support the guide business.

  56. #56
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    More "evidence" of the thining herd, here's today opinion column from the Centre Daily Times,

    Deer Keep Getting Dearer

    http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centr...n/13364684.htm

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