More Lame-O Trail Maint. in the Wiss.- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    More Lame-O Trail Maint. in the Wiss.

    RIP Monster, Welcome monster highway.

    Is this what we get for having events like the Poker Run?

    No more singletrack in the Wissahickon. All handicap-accessible. Move on please.

  2. #2
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    First I will start with the obligatory question, "How many times have you volunteered for the trail maintenance at Wiss, Fluid?"

    I'm guessing most of the volunteers are hikers and probably older hikers as well so they are going to clear the trails as much as possible to make it easy on themselves. One thing I know for sure was Wiss was trashed after last season and they've not only done a great job fixing the trails they've also added more single track (which is still single track right now).

    Maintaining single track at Wiss is an impossible job with the number of people who use the trails. I rode last their last night and watched this guy purposely ride off the edge of the trail and bunny hop from side to side. Multiply that by 100 other jackasses and you have a fire road development company.

    MX.

  3. #3
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    monster was in bad shape!

    I think what they did to monster was appropriate i was begining to notice every time i made it to monster it had shifted, which is great for the better riders but not for beginners or hikers.

    i was actually the first rider to go down it a maybe 2 weeks ago the city workers were still there and gave me the go ahead to ride down it. it was a fast smooth ride but i hope by now they add some type of system to make sure the water runs down without tearing up the whole section.

    as far as chipping in to maintain the trails we may still be out numbered but it does hurt to help preserve what we have.

  4. #4
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    It's still a monster climb, at least for me Funnily enough, I have never ridden down it...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigkeith
    I think what they did to monster was appropriate i was begining to notice every time i made it to monster it had shifted, which is great for the better riders but not for beginners or hikers.

    i was actually the first rider to go down it a maybe 2 weeks ago the city workers were still there
    I was there that saturday, too, except I was going up while the workers were coming down for their lunch break. I hate to see any trail get bulldozed, really, no matter how eroded it may be. (Mono...the monster wasn't leveled by geriatric hikers, it was bulldozed by FPC workers).

    That said, it really doesn't matter so much. It's still a steep motherf#$^er of a climb, even if it is just a little easier to clean now. Give it time, and it'll be right back the way it was sooner or later. They did install a big drainage pipe in the dirt at the steepest part (first turn heading up from Forbidden Dr) which may help a little with the runoff...but they're fighting a losing battle on that slope. Have been for years. Old Ma' Nature always wins in the end.

    Fluid, this isn't the first time they've broken out the bulldozers in the Wissahickon Valley and it surely won't be the last. (anyone remember the old orange trail, way back when you were **allowed** to ride the whole thing? Or how 'bout the lower half of the monster before they smoothed that out a few years ago?)

    Get over it. The park is constantly changing, for better or worse. There's still plenty of good singletrack out there. And, by the way, I'd like to see the wheelchair that can make it *up* the monster.
    "mmmm....Beeeeeeer." - Homer J. Simpson

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stick
    Mono...the monster wasn't leveled by geriatric hikers, it was bulldozed by FPC workers.
    My point was that if you aren't helping with the trail maintenance you really are in no position to complain. (and by you I mean in general not anyone specifically so don't flame me. ) The Friends of the Wisshaickon, who order up the maintenance, is dominated by hikers I would imagine. Although I can't speak to their ages.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stick
    And, by the way, I'd like to see the wheelchair that can make it *up* the monster.
    Oh and this wheelchair might fit the bill Stick.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonolithicX
    Oh and this wheelchair might fit the bill Stick.
    Think you've got the wrong URL in your link there! I assume it was supposed to show me something like this?



    Grove Innovations DH Chair.

    It'd go down the monster in style, but up? Really, I just thought it was funny that Fluid thought they smoothed it out to make it handi-capable. Pretty sure I wouldn't want to push anyone in a wheelchair up that hill, smooth or not.
    "mmmm....Beeeeeeer." - Homer J. Simpson

  9. #9
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    Monster i still a hell of a climb. i think the trails back in Wiss are still as great as ever.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonolithicX
    First I will start with the obligatory question, "How many times have you volunteered for the trail maintenance at Wiss, Fluid?"

    I'm guessing most of the volunteers are hikers and probably older hikers as well ........

    MX.
    Plenty of times MonoX, the last thing that I built the was the first water bar that you hit when you come down the widow-maker towards the inn, that maintenance was made with the input of all user groups and it shows. What 'they' have done elsewhere is ridiculous. how about re-route the Monster off the fall line and halfway up Bell's Mill rd? that would be thinking, and you wouldn't even need a 'dozer.

    How often do you show up? you seem to be 'guessing' about the people who do.

    Let it stay rough and gnarly. Leave the fallen logs, build trails that slow the bikers down, not turn them into kamikazees. Maybe that will lessen the user speed disparity, we can all be one happy family.

    Everyone hold hands and repeat after me, "Its OK to have to walk up a technical section, I dont need to ride around it, I dont need it bulldozed, maybe if I keep riding my bike and trying hard I will make it one day, then I will be so happy with myself."

  11. #11
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    FPC Vs. FOW

    From my experience the FOW has done a 180degree about face since the late Joe D and the WRV split off in spite. All of the recent FOW managed maintenance has been quite well thought out when it come to bikes. Its my suspicion that the FPC is behind the 'dozerings. Maybe someone can shed some light on it.

    And yes, there are a lot of goood new things out there, the new Wise's Mills road section, for example. But it looks as though they are trying to get the dozers down there now.

    And I'm sorry, but anyone who is saying that it is as good as it has ever been just hasnt been riding there for very long

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluid Dynamics
    RIP Monster, Welcome monster highway.

    Is this what we get for having events like the Poker Run?

    No more singletrack in the Wissahickon. All handicap-accessible. Move on please.
    First of all, you can thank the Jersey Action Riders and the Delaware Valley Mountain VBike Patrol for getting the FOW thinking more about MTB. Saturday was a scheduled train maintenance with JAR and DVMBP. Very few people showed up. In fact, at most TM's the hikers far outnumber the bikers. NO ONE and I mean NO ONE has the right to complain if they are not helping with TM. Do you know how upsetting it is for workers to be trying to fix trail and some of you guys just come screaming through without so much as a thank you? GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE AND HELP!

    You should also be aware that Trail Solutions (the IMBA company) was part of that effort on Saturday. It was a necessary evil in order to save a huge section of trail. Right now we are monitoring the trails with electronic counters. This will help to determine areas of need and then ultimately, Trail Solutions will help all of the park supporters (are you one?) close down poor trails and create new sustainable singletrack.

    All I have to say is you have some freaking nerve complaining about that which you know nothing about. The Poker Run was held to promote awareness of the park and the delicate nature of the trail system. It was designed to show that mountain bikers DO care as much as the hikers.

  13. #13
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    Back off buddy, if you want to play the stewardship game, then why dont you start talking the talk instead of getting all bunched up over the internet. The FOW has always been a moderate body, with the exception of a certain outspoken individual, but those were the days before JAR was on the scene, so I can only assume that your narcissism is clouding your sense of perspective.

    It also looks like you are being a bit oversensitive as well, every time I have done trailwork, everyone who passes by is always cordial, if not a little taken aback by the presence of a crew in the middle of a trail. Not to mention that most of the folks that do show up for trail work enjoy it in and of itself, and arent all buggered up that everyone who passes by isnt kneeling before them in reverence.

    I will even go out on a limb and say that our access to that park has more to do with city politics than anything you, JAR, or I could come up with. There have always been advocacy groups in the Wissahickon, so in that respect you and your group are nothing new, with the possible exception of being the first to organize a mass stampede through the park. IMBA has always been involved as well.

    Now in my original post I jabbed at you guys, to tell you the truth I would have taken it back if you hadnt come off as such a prick just now. There is some truth to it though, we could take a ride and I can point out several areas that are still beat up from your event (Im sure that we would get along fine if we met face to face BTW). Ive met Jay from your club once on the trail once and was impressed by his attitude and knowledge. Youre not giving me such a good impression. Let me clue you in to the fact there is some local backlash to this stuff. Not too long ago it was rare to come across another biker, now weve got JAR, organized events, and the increase in user conflicts that inevitably result. Not to mention electronic counters attached to trees?! Now youve got to be kidding me. As far as I am concerned your advocacy and the increase in users due to you programs about even out, your attitude tips the scale though. You are an out of towner my friend, and Im fairly sure that you dont pay city taxes, so it would be nice if you showed a little bit more humility when it comes to the privilege of using our back yard.

    Dont read me as saying stay away, just lay off the holier than thou BS, because we all love that park, and do what we can to help preserve it, whether its trail maintenance, stopping for 5 minutes to fill a mud hole in with sticks, staying home when its rainy, or just taking time to have a chat with a hiker or horse back rider.

  14. #14
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    Such Anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluid Dynamics
    Back off buddy, if you want to play the stewardship game, then why don�t you start talking the talk instead of getting all bunched up over the internet. The FOW has always been a moderate body, with the exception of a certain outspoken individual, but those were the days before JAR was on the scene, so I can only assume that your narcissism is clouding your sense of perspective.
    I am not bunched up, just pointing out some things. Do you belong to the FOW? How do you know they are moderate. Do you know they are still agonizing over how to accept the Poker Run money from a bunch of bad ole mountain bikers? No lack of perspecyive here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluid Dynamics
    It also looks like you are being a bit oversensitive as well, every time I have done trailwork, everyone who passes by is always cordial, if not a little taken aback by the presence of a crew in the middle of a trail. Not to mention that most of the folks that do show up for trail work enjoy it in and of itself, and aren�t all buggered up that everyone who passes by isn�t kneeling before them in reverence.
    Never asked for a praise, just a simple thanks is all. Not everyone is cordial and there are quite a few riders in that park who do not know what TM is or why it is done. Of course those are the same skidiots riding off trail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluid Dynamics
    I will even go out on a limb and say that our access to that park has more to do with city politics than anything you, JAR, or I could come up with. There have always been advocacy groups in the Wissahickon, so in that respect you and your group are nothing new, with the possible exception of being the first to organize a mass stampede through the park. IMBA has always been involved as well.
    You are probably wrong here. It was 70% Jay and the DVMBP that had a huge effect on why riding is still allowed. IMBA put the DVMBP in there for that reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluid Dynamics
    Now in my original post I jabbed at you guys, to tell you the truth I would have taken it back if you hadn�t come off as such a prick just now.
    I really don't think I was that bad. You took a positive event and put a negative swing on it. What type of reaction did you think you would get?


    Quote Originally Posted by Fluid Dynamics
    There is some truth to it though, we could take a ride and I can point out several areas that are still beat up from your event (I�m sure that we would get along fine if we met face to face BTW).
    I doubt that the problems you see were soley caused by the PR. I'd be happy to join you on a ride to determine what caused destruction. We have probably already met faced to face at some point in time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluid Dynamics
    I�ve met Jay from your club once on the trail once and was impressed by his attitude and knowledge. You�re not giving me such a good impression.
    He is very good at this stuff. He has more years of experience than anyone I know, except maybe Gary Fisher. He's a communications guy. He knows how to talk to people and be very liberal with his attitude. I'll admit, I am not that sensitive. Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, but in reality I am not such a bad guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluid Dynamics
    Let me clue you in to the fact there is some local backlash to this stuff. Not too long ago it was rare to come across another biker, now we�ve got JAR, organized events, and the increase in user conflicts that inevitably result. Not to mention electronic counters attached to trees?! Now you�ve got to be kidding me. As far as I am concerned your advocacy and the increase in users due to you programs about even out, your attitude tips the scale though. You are an out of towner my friend, and I�m fairly sure that you don�t pay city taxes, so it would be nice if you showed a little bit more humility when it comes to the privilege of using our back yard.
    As MTB becomes more poular, you will have more bikers in the park. Especially if they are city dwellers. There are not many places for them to go within riding distance. The conflicts would be far worse without the organizations helping. Most of the counters are under the ground and they measure foot, bike, and horse traffic. If they trails are going to be made sustainable, it is necessary to know what's going through it. Don't worry, there won't be traffic lights . As for out-of-towner, I have worked in this city for 15+ years and pay the city wage tax. So, I do believe I am entitled to services the city offers. How much more humility can be shown when I participate in TM, pack out trash that others leave behind, and help to coordinate awareness of the parks fragility? You are a little out of line with that last statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluid Dynamics
    Don�t read me as saying stay away, just lay off the holier than thou BS, because we all love that park, and do what we can to help preserve it, whether its trail maintenance, stopping for 5 minutes to fill a mud hole in with sticks, staying home when its rainy, or just taking time to have a chat with a hiker or horse back rider.
    Which every rider/walker in that park should do.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JARhead
    You are probably wrong here. It was 70% Jay and the DVMBP that had a huge effect on why riding is still allowed.
    Not to butt in on your discussion, but I don't know how true that is. JAR, IMBA, and DVMBP certainly haven't hurt with regard to MTB access and, collectively, have made great strides in bridging the gap between the FOW and the MTB set (inasmuch as that's possible) in the last few years, but I attended several FPC meetings roughly 6 or 7 years ago, when the Commission began "serious" talks about banning (or, at the very least, severely restricting) mountain bikes in the Wissahickon valley. They voted on this in 1999, iirc. (and probably several times since, but I've fallen out of the loop since then)

    Anyway, while there were some vociferous objections, the general concensus then was that, although the Commission arguably had the authority to do so, it did not have the right to tell residents that they could not ride trails in the biggest, most readily accessible park in the City, while granting unrestricted access to other user groups.

    Essentially, the FPC didn't want to be charged with the responsibility of chasing hundreds of 'outlaw' bikers through the park...which it inevitably would have had to do had they thrown down the gauntlet and declared "NO BIKES!"
    "mmmm....Beeeeeeer." - Homer J. Simpson

  16. #16
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    Stupid question but what trail do you guys call the monster?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by anand
    Stupid question but what trail do you guys call the monster?
    The big hill closest to W. Bells Mill, going up from Forbidden Dr.
    "mmmm....Beeeeeeer." - Homer J. Simpson

  18. #18
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    Cool-blue Rhythm Time to derail this thread.

    Opinions have been stated, I I think that there might even be some level of understanding here. Its a park thats worth being passionate about.

    Now to digress: I took a stroll on the purple trails around 6am this morning, the fog seemed to envelope the woods and the temperature had already climbed to what felt like 80 degrees. The columnar trunks of the tulip poplars dissapeared into the mist, as though the canopy had been swallowed by the clouds. I felt like a diver exploring an undersea wreck. All of the bird calls suddenly seemed to transform the local woods into a lush tropical rainforest. As I left the park, the first rays of sunlight began to slice the mist, illuminating the dew covered spiderwebs that coated the understory. I felt as though I had stolen a special moment, before the blazing summer heat took over the day.

  19. #19
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    see i thought you guys were b!tchin about the top of the downhill on the same side as the monster but further down after the trail crosses wises mill.

    the first big down you come to, the one that used to have all the nice little rocks and waterbars to jump off of before it banked left then right... that was my favorite downhill and they bulldozed the nice flowy top section of that as well.

    i didn't even know about monster because i don't really dig that downhill (but could see fixing it as it must be an erosion nightmare).

    but in general i don't agree with the bulldozing of any of the trails either. lets keep it technical....

    it sounds like the FPC is behind these new "improvements"???? it looks much the same as when they "improved" the top of the climb from the red covered bridge up to monster last year ...

    i don't like the improvments but as someone above stated (stick i bleieve) wissahickon is ever changing and if you don't like a trail just wait it'll change.

  20. #20
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    Should we all start praying for hurricanes again?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonolithicX
    Should we all start praying for hurricanes again?
    don't worry with enough yahoos out there riding wet trails it will degrade back to technical in no time...

    in a not so funny (but still funny) semi-related story... the other day i am riding through there (i usually don't commute through there but was saving my legs for mtbing that weekend) and just as i am rolling by some kid comes bombing out of one of the side roads onto forbidden and locks up a nice 30ft skid

    same ride: right in front of valley green (ok maybe a quarter mile away) i see a whole crew of ass-clowns have hiked up a steep drainage and are trying to huck or descend or whatever eXtreme thing they were trying to do, right down onto forbidden.... with hikers and everyone passing just giving looks (much like mine) of what the [email protected] are you doing???

    good god, some people have no freakin clue as to how to keep hikers from hating us all.... if your gonna get extreme at least do it in the deep woods away from forbidden drive. but i am guessing these guys wouldn't really know the trails anyway.

  22. #22
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    what should one do when we see wanna be's tearing up the trails and disrespecting fellow users and hikers? Break out the thomson seatpost and give them 410mm worth

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by max-a-mill
    but in general i don't agree with the bulldozing of any of the trails either. lets keep it technical....
    They actually bulldozed the monster back in '94 - '95 time frame when I used to ride the Wiss ... back then, you could ride on the East side of the creek too ... there were some trails over there.

  24. #24
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    I liked the monster the way it was but I also like being able to get up the whole thing now. I'm trying to not worry about it too much.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfbikerider
    back then, you could ride on the East side of the creek too ... there were some trails over there.
    you still can!

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