Ebikes at Sandy Ridge?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Ebikes at Sandy Ridge?

    i live close to SR and ride it a bunch. lately I've been seeing riders on ebikes heading up too the trails. At first I thought it wad just super fit riders but when a heavy set dude passed me in jeans I knew something was up!

    are these bikes legal to ride here. I'm not sure what the trail rulers are in oregon for ebikes. nothing is posted at SR saying you can't.

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    I couldn't find anything. Try calling them and reporting back?

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    Is Sandy Ridge on US Forest Service property? If so, then no, they wouldn't be legal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    Is Sandy Ridge on US Forest Service property? If so, then no, they wouldn't be legal.
    No. BLM land.
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    Quote Originally Posted by free-agent View Post
    No. BLM land.
    To the best of my knowledge, the BLM has a no ebike policy as well....unless they've gone to a "it depends on the area" policy
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    Who cares. It is not a motorcycle. It is a pedal assist bike. People need to get over this, even though it might crush their ego and go against their extreme liberal views.

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    FWIW, the BLM's brochure underlines non-motorized use only.

    https://www.blm.gov/or/resources/rec...ilbrochure.pdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by yamaha267 View Post
    Who cares. It is not a motorcycle. It is a pedal assist bike.
    Since it has a motor, regardless of energy source, I'm in the camp that would call it a motorcycle or motorized bicycle and in that case it does not belong on non-motorized use trails.

    Since it doesn't have a gasoline fuelled engine you don't feel it is a motorcycle, but some kind of non-notorized vehicle.

    Who's right?

    It's a discussion that goes beyond this thread I'm thinking.
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  9. #9
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    I heard the Sandy Ridge parking lot expansion was to help accommodate for the sudden influx of e-bike users.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yamaha267 View Post
    Who cares. It is not a motorcycle. It is a pedal assist bike. People need to get over this, even though it might crush their ego and go against their extreme liberal views.
    Ego my a$$! They have a motor. They are mopeds. Lazy folks can go do something else. MTB is about earning it. Why would you mention ďextreme liberal viewsĒ? That has nothing to do with anything, but it does explain a lot. Changing the name, or rebranding, does not actually change the product. Motor = Moped! Nothing liberal about that.
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  11. #11
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    BLM and USFS have a no e-bike policy. They state that vehicle itself has a motor built-into it to propel it and is therefore subject to their motorized vehicle rules. Not legal to ride there on ebikes, even with the battery removed.

    Ebikers had better brush up on their studies, such as philosophy, and be ready to become the next MLK Jr, if they plan on riding there on an ebike, if they believe such rules are unjust.

    Extreme liberal views, or extreme conservative views... both are extremely narrow-minded. Ebikers best hope that they run into decent folk who are open minded, and who don't think they're enforcers of justice.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by yamaha267 View Post
    Who cares. It is not a motorcycle. It is a pedal assist bike. People need to get over this, even though it might crush their ego and go against their extreme liberal views.
    I don't really care as long as somebody doesn't decide to ride their E-bike UP the trails. But, that concern isn't unique to E-Bikes.

    I'm not pro-Ebike in the least, but on purpose built downhill directional mountain bike trails, with a paved road climb (with motor vehicle traffic on it) and sponsored shuttle days, I don't see a whole lot of arguments against E-bikes that hold water (other than rules are rules). Certainly can't say that there is a concern over losing access to SR because of E-bikes.

    However, in 2015, BLM stated their position that they classify E-bikes as motorized vehicles. https://www.blm.gov/policy/ib-2015-060

    Edit: As posted above, BLM has indicated in their brochure that SR is non-motorized use only.

    So, it would seem that (assuming 1+1=2) BLMs rules would prohibit E-bikes at SR.

    Of course, there is the question of whether BLM would even enforce it at SR.

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    it's not a big deal to me personally as it's a road climb. The more "lazy" and "heavy" people riding bikes the better in my book. E bikes have no advantage on the DH.

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    Problem with ebikes is the future. Land managers need to plan for it.
    Eventually, ebikes will be as powerful as motorcycles.
    I think they are a great commuter option, and have no issue with them. But they are motorized and should not be on non-motorized trails.

    BTW -
    IMBA says allow ebikes on trails.
    That's why I no longer support IMBA.
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  15. #15
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    I think e-bikes at Sandy do present a problem. Sandy and Alsea are somewhat of a pilot project regarding how the BLM gets along with mountain bikers. Both parks expansion and potential to build elsewhere depends on that relationship. Depending on which BLM guy or gal shows up at Sandy they can be real snickelers on the rules. We as whole will be and are judged on how those rules are respected. Furthermore, the guy that gets away with riding his moped at Sandy will feel entitled to do so elsewhere where access can be a very serious issue. I have seen this firsthand. So do your part and kindly ask the e-bikers to fukking beat it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yamaha267 View Post
    Who cares. It is not a motorcycle. It is a pedal assist bike. People need to get over this, even though it might crush their ego and go against their extreme liberal views.
    AGREEE 100%

    Who cares.

    Share the trails, for all users. Don't be a doosh.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by debaucherous View Post
    Eventually, ebikes will be as powerful as motorcycles.
    That reality is pretty much already here. Between what is being offered for sale "off the shelf" by some smaller manufacturers, and what people are modifying and tweaking on their own or with aftermarket kits, there is a pretty wide range of power options available, some with pedal assist, some with throttle.

    For example, the Alta Redshift is a full on motocross bike with 40 hp and 120 ft-lb torque.

    Of course, that is on the extreme end, and isn't in the same class of bike since it has a throttle rather than pedal assist. Point being, the technology is already there to make electric bikes in any flavor and power you want.

    Another example:
    https://www.stealthelectricbikes.com/model-range/

    These guys have two models with 5200 w (7 hp) motors and a top speed of 50 mph. One model has pedals, the other has moto foot pegs. Calling one an ebike and the other a motorcycle seems kinda silly.

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    I stand corrected. Thanks. The future is now.
    A 40 hp motor - that's about the same as a Honda 650 dirt bike.... Wow. Cool, but that solidifies my belief that ebikes belong on multi-use trails, not non-motor trails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by debaucherous View Post
    I stand corrected. Thanks. The future is now.
    A 40 hp motor - that's about the same as a Honda 650 dirt bike.... Wow. Cool, but that solidifies my belief that ebikes belong on multi-use trails, not non-motor trails.
    The Alta, at 40 HP fall right in the middle of the range of HP for 250 cc four stroke motocross bikes (2017 models from major manufacturers range from 38 hp to 44 hp), but the electric motor puts out a lot more torque. Interesting development if you are into moto for sure, but the Alta isn't something you are likely to see anyone show up on at Sandy Ridge trying to pass it off as a mountain bike.
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  20. #20
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    Pedal assist or throttle; if one can't ensure their E-bike battery wont catch fire, it should not be in a forest.

    Also, regardless of fitness or attire, if we catch a person going the wrong direction, we are to stop them and get them to do the right thing, or get their pic and get it to the local ranger. Don't insist or demand, just ask politely!

    The only issue I have with E-bike is anything that uses a throttle. If it's pedal assist, I'm okay with it. Not excluding battery assurance.

    And if the trails get too crowded because of E-bikes, then we should build for them.

    If an E-biker ever says aloud that the trail is too technical, inform them of the locations of flow trails.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    I think e-bikes at Sandy do present a problem. Sandy and Alsea are somewhat of a pilot project regarding how the BLM gets along with mountain bikers. Both parks expansion and potential to build elsewhere depends on that relationship. Depending on which BLM guy or gal shows up at Sandy they can be real snickelers on the rules. We as whole will be and are judged on how those rules are respected. Furthermore, the guy that gets away with riding his moped at Sandy will feel entitled to do so elsewhere where access can be a very serious issue. I have seen this firsthand. So do your part and kindly ask the e-bikers to fukking beat it.
    Be sure my 7yo can hear when I'm towing him up for his third lap from the top.

    W/o an ebike I could tow him 1.5 laps and there wouldn't be much left in the tank for 'me' time. This will give me (or mama) a chance to ride with our kid AND still have energy to do our own ride - which is NOT on the ebike.

    If only we could get a real bike park this wouldn't be 100% necessary. Ah, who am I kidding, I'll continue to tow him at Sandy. IMHO, areas like Sandy are the perfect place for ebikes.

    Do you think BLM really wants less people utilizing the trails? Is there really any MORE trail conflict possible? Please don't fear monger. These machines can be used responsibly. Some of you claiming the moral high road are beginning to sound like FOFP.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattrwills View Post
    Be sure my 7yo can hear when I'm towing him up for his third lap from the top.

    W/o an ebike I could tow him 1.5 laps and there wouldn't be much left in the tank for 'me' time. This will give me (or mama) a chance to ride with our kid AND still have energy to do our own ride - which is NOT on the ebike.

    If only we could get a real bike park this wouldn't be 100% necessary. Ah, who am I kidding, I'll continue to tow him at Sandy. IMHO, areas like Sandy are the perfect place for ebikes.

    Do you think BLM really wants less people utilizing the trails? Is there really any MORE trail conflict possible? Please don't fear monger. These machines can be used responsibly. Some of you claiming the moral high road are beginning to sound like FOFP.
    That's my story and I'm stickin to it. Your son can untilize the lower trails untill he gains the strength and skills to ride up. That's how it works. Tons of kids and families seem to be having a blast doing just that including many friends of mine. I've never witnessed trail conflict at Sandy you speak of. Maybe some regarding the enduro races and practice days. I'm an ex moto guy and mixed use trails are great. Mtb specific trails are also great. We can have both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    That's my story and I'm stickin to it. Your son can untilize the lower trails untill he gains the strength and skills to ride up. That's how it works. Tons of kids and families seem to be having a blast doing just that including many friends of mine. I've never witnessed trail conflict at Sandy you speak of. Maybe some regarding the enduro races and practice days. I'm an ex moto guy and mixed use trails are great. Mtb specific trails are also great. We can have both.

    Sure, I'll tell him that until he is 5x the weight his bike weight, he shouldn't expect to ride from the top. Have you pedaled a bike 1/2 your weight uphill?

    It amazes me how we sell our kids short. Give them a hardtail, tubes, cantis, rigid, they won't know the difference and will fall in love with the sport. Or, give them our technology (tuned suspension, disc brakes, good tires, etc.), take them to the top, and watch them shred.

    I smile every time.

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    The only perfect place for mopeds is commuting, delivery, etc. Slippery slope and I prefer steep. Sandy Ridge has never had a problem attracting, as well as, retaining mountain bikers.
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    The issue of ebikes being allowed on the trails may not be so much about whether you like them or not but the overall management plan and funding sources for the trails. From a quick look at the Sandy Ridge Management Plan, this area is for non-motorized recreation trails. While I couldn't find any information on it, I would bet some, if not a bunch of the funding came from the Recreational Trails Program that gives grants to build, yup, trails. The RTP money is allocated based on trail use, non-motorized, motorized or mixed. I don't think you can easily change the designation once you have gotten funding. So while we can sit around pontificating our opinions on ebikes and where we would like them to belong, the end game is much like the discussion over bikes in the wilderness, until some rules change they aren't allowed, like or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattrwills View Post
    Sure, I'll tell him that until he is 5x the weight his bike weight, he shouldn't expect to ride from the top. Have you pedaled a bike 1/2 your weight uphill?

    It amazes me how we sell our kids short. Give them a hardtail, tubes, cantis, rigid, they won't know the difference and will fall in love with the sport. Or, give them our technology (tuned suspension, disc brakes, good tires, etc.), take them to the top, and watch them shred.

    I smile every time.
    NONE of us had fancy mountain bikes as kids.... We got along just fine and still love the sport... Are you sure you aren't raising a child who will forever be dependent on technological crutches?
    Also, flaunting your rulebreaking can only hurt our cause...

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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    I think e-bikes at Sandy do present a problem. Sandy and Alsea are somewhat of a pilot project regarding how the BLM gets along with mountain bikers. Both parks expansion and potential to build elsewhere depends on that relationship. Depending on which BLM guy or gal shows up at Sandy they can be real snickelers on the rules. We as whole will be and are judged on how those rules are respected. Furthermore, the guy that gets away with riding his moped at Sandy will feel entitled to do so elsewhere where access can be a very serious issue. I have seen this firsthand. So do your part and kindly ask the e-bikers to fukking beat it.
    This is the exact problem. If "mountain bikers" are breaking one rule, why wouldn't we break all the other rules too? E-Bikes are ALREADY being used as justification to reduce or block our access to trails. I've heard it with my own ears regarding access to Forest Park and Riverview...
    Places like Sandy Ridge and Alsea Falls are a test. Can we get enough volunteers, do we trash trails, do we cause conflicts with other users, can we be responsible and follow the rules...
    If you want (or need) a motor, buy a used dirt bike and ride OHV parks.

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    OHV Parks suck.. FYI. Hard to find single track for Moto. these days

    I do all the sports motor or not. I don't think quads should be banned.

    I don't think Ebike should be banned.

    But I don't like how hikers can't get along with anyone.

    Moto guys can't get along with quads

    Skiiers can't get along with snowmobiles.

    Bikers apparently can't get along with Ebikes...or moto.

    I'm fine sharing all the trails with anyone including horses... its not that hard...don't be a jerk. and its fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTMDirtFace View Post
    OHV Parks suck.. FYI. Hard to find single track for Moto. these days

    I do all the sports motor or not. I don't think quads should be banned.

    I don't think Ebike should be banned.

    But I don't like how hikers can't get along with anyone.

    Moto guys can't get along with quads

    Skiiers can't get along with snowmobiles.

    Bikers apparently can't get along with Ebikes...or moto.

    I'm fine sharing all the trails with anyone including horses... its not that hard...don't be a jerk. and its fine.
    And it is starting to look like fellow mt bikers are joining hikers in hating everyone.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTMDirtFace View Post
    OHV Parks suck.. FYI. Hard to find single track for Moto. these days
    Meh. Not the best selection around here (and I've been to most in the state, I think), but I'm not going to complain since I'm not out doing trail work at OHV areas. I'm taking my 250 to either Huckleberry Flats or Diamond Mill tomorrow.

    FYI, this isn't a "sharing" issue. It's a "we could ALL get kicked out" issue. I couldn't care less if people want to ride e-bikes... but it threatens to hurt our cause so that selfishness irks me...

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrasher_s View Post
    Meh. Not the best selection around here (and I've been to most in the state, I think), but I'm not going to complain since I'm not out doing trail work at OHV areas. I'm taking my 250 to either Huckleberry Flats or Diamond Mill tomorrow.

    FYI, this isn't a "sharing" issue. It's a "we could ALL get kicked out" issue. I couldn't care less if people want to ride e-bikes... but it threatens to hurt our cause so that selfishness irks me...
    Why'd you not include his point? It's addresses the "we could all get kicked out" issue pretty well. Don't be a jerk.

    It's all the negativity, rudeness, and other toxicity that's the problem. From Stravassholes to social media dudes showing how to ignore trail etiquette, it's not surprising that we mtbrs are merely tolerated, rather than welcomed. Who actually wants to see us multiply, ebike or not? Is showing your ugly side to ebikes not also toxic behavior?

    My bike shop gave me an IMBA pamphlet when I bought my first real mtn bike. It showed me the rules of trail. Ride on open trails only, leave no trace, control your bike... breaking these rules seems to be glorified. People say F' those guys, as if they're not even part of the mtb "community", but non-mtbrs don't see it that way. Mtbrs are not willing to be responsible for their own actions, let alone others, and now all of the sudden there seems to be "community effort" to play damage control where convenient.

    Here's a new minority, ebikers... it'd be F'd up if they were stravassholes and poachers too. Can see how others might see that they're like mtb, and maybe like MX... since they're a minority, people see the opportunity to pull out the "democracy card" to crush 'em and try to maintain this shaky status quo before it gets worse. Can you even call this a community? What does it get involved in and what values does it have? I don't know if my view is like others here, but I'm not proud to be part of it. Yapping about a millimeter or three changed here and there, trying to be tightwad, being overly judgmental, trying to share "stoke" which involves putting a bike in front of random objects for photos, overdramatizing and hyping up all sorts of BS, etc...

    Well, now that I more clearly identified this BS, I'm going to try and change and actually try to be more friendly, to contrast how all this current behavior seems anti-social. Maybe if I run into a group of hikers or other trail users and know there's riders from my group behind me, I'll wait and have a friendly chat with them, and ask about what kind of "stoke" they have or are planning. Not specifically at Sandy Ridge, but anywhere trails are shared.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Why'd you not include his point? It's addresses the "we could all get kicked out" issue pretty well. Don't be a jerk.

    Thanks in my rambling that was my point.

    My main point was if everyone was respectful and and wasn't a bonehead, I think all single track could be shared.

    Unfortunately, there is a lot of boneheads screwing it up for everyone else. and causing the blame game.

    PS I stop for everyone, uphill or downhill regardless of what contraption I happen to be on that day. I'm not a jerk.


    EDIT: If its not tearing up the trails, then I missed the point of this post completely, what is the complaint for Ebikes? Is it that a heavy set dude passed you? who cares? lance armstrong on dope would do the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Why'd you not include his point? It's addresses the "we could all get kicked out" issue pretty well. [B]Don't be a jerk.
    His point may be "don't be a jerk", but we can be the nicest guys out there and STILL lose trail access. Clearly not being a jerk isn't good enough.

    One of our problems is that we are not welcome, in the eyes of many "hiking only" types (who, by the way, clearly have a lot more political influence than we do), even if we follow all trail laws, rules, and maintain proper etiquette. Do you know how many times I have cheerfully yielded the trail to a hiker only to have disdain thrown back at me?

    Riding e-bikes in areas where motorized vehicles are banned is clearly a violation of the rules... Im not a "follow the rule because it's a rule" kind of guy, but we have to work within the system. If the rule is bad, get it changed. Flagrantly violating this rule is selfishly putting everybody's trail access at risk. I say that makes a person a jerk.

    Your sig says, "We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking." There are a lot of people out there trying to keep the ship afloat. We don't need people punching holes in the hull.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KTMDirtFace View Post
    Thanks in my rambling that was my point.

    My main point was if everyone was respectful and and wasn't a bonehead, I think all single track could be shared.

    Unfortunately, there is a lot of boneheads screwing it up for everyone else. and causing the blame game.

    PS I stop for everyone, uphill or downhill regardless of what contraption I happen to be on that day. I'm not a jerk.


    EDIT: If its not tearing up the trails, then I missed the point of this post completely, what is the complaint for Ebikes? Is it that a heavy set dude passed you? who cares? lance armstrong on dope would do the same.
    I don't have a use for e-bikes myself. They are worse mountain bikes than my bikes and pathetic compared to my motos. That said, I don't care if other people want to ride them. However, riding them on trails that are for non-motorized users is a disrespectful and bonehead thing to do. The anti-biking groups who REALLY don't like sharing "their" trails can point to people breaking the rules with e-bikes and say, "See? If we allow mountain bikes on 'our' trails then they will show up with 'motorcycles' as well!" It makes it far to easy for them to make the "slippery slope" argument, especially since the distinction between e-bikes and what I would call a real motorcycle is starting to blur.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thrasher_s View Post
    His point may be "don't be a jerk", but we can be the nicest guys out there and STILL lose trail access. Clearly not being a jerk isn't good enough.

    One of our problems is that we are not welcome, in the eyes of many "hiking only" types (who, by the way, clearly have a lot more political influence than we do), even if we follow all trail laws, rules, and maintain proper etiquette. Do you know how many times I have cheerfully yielded the trail to a hiker only to have disdain thrown back at me?

    Riding e-bikes in areas where motorized vehicles are banned is clearly a violation of the rules... Im not a "follow the rule because it's a rule" kind of guy, but we have to work within the system. If the rule is bad, get it changed. Flagrantly violating this rule is selfishly putting everybody's trail access at risk. I say that makes a person a jerk.

    Your sig says, "We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking." There are a lot of people out there trying to keep the ship afloat. We don't need people punching holes in the hull.
    Quote Originally Posted by thrasher_s View Post
    I don't have a use for e-bikes myself. They are worse mountain bikes than my bikes and pathetic compared to my motos. That said, I don't care if other people want to ride them. However, riding them on trails that are for non-motorized users is a disrespectful and bonehead thing to do. The anti-biking groups who REALLY don't like sharing "their" trails can point to people breaking the rules with e-bikes and say, "See? If we allow mountain bikes on 'our' trails then they will show up with 'motorcycles' as well!" It makes it far to easy for them to make the "slippery slope" argument, especially since the distinction between e-bikes and what I would call a real motorcycle is starting to blur.
    Let me tell you straight up, man to man, without rhyme or riddle, and with minimal storytelling flair. You have extremely unrefined problem solving skill and logical reasoning. Let me tell you why.

    May I suggest adopting the problem solving strategy of focusing on fixing the process, and not the problem? In such a strategy, you focus on addressing the root cause of the problem, or at least as close as possible to it, to address the problems before they appear further down the line. The apparent problem down the line here is that Sandy Ridge is managed by BLM, which interprets ebikes as falling under their motorized vehicle rule (https://www.blm.gov/policy/ib-2015-060), and there are ebikers showing up anyways, despite no ebike signs. I touched on this in my first post, where I said that ebikers had better educate themselves, if they really think the rule is injust. I don't see this specific problem as a mtber problem, I see it as a ebiker problem, as they're the ones that will face the penalties. I do see the problems they can cause for mtbers, but I'll touch on these mtber problems further down.

    The logical reasoning that you have is on a level similar to many many others here, but still unrefined. Some of your conclusions are deduced based on distant speculation and fear. You fear escalation of problems, you fear slippery slopes, and you fear authoritarian traits, or at least harsh judgment and condemnation. You speculate that you can still lose trail access despite being the nicest guys out there. Your following conclusion states a problem. Your solution to that problem is more akin to a quick fix, rather than a process fix. There's a problem solving concept states that quick fixes fail, due to the side-effects building up. In this case, the quick fix is to shame ebikers with toxic hate for "flagrantly" breaking a rule. What are the side effects? Is your apparent display of logical reasoning and problem solving skills a side effect of being influenced by toxic social judgment (AKA mobbing), from anti-biking groups and anti-ebike groups?

    You can tell how poor a logical argument is by the many forms of contradictions that are revealed. Hypocrisy is one of these logical flaws. The slippery slope argument is one of many logical fallacies. It's reasonable to have a fear of side effects. Is it not reasonable to look at the side effects of every possible action? If you did, you might be frozen unable to decide what action to take, therefore people tend to rely on their subjective emotions/feelings/intuition to choose. In the case of shaming ebikers with toxic hate, are the side effects truly ignorable? The ebikers might be [former] mtbers and could be so much like mtbers that it brings attention to mtbers as a whole. In regards to being like mtbers, are they doing things like you'd picture a motorized vehicle would or are they hard to distinguish from a mtb? Is it not reasonable to believe that blowing up this case is akin to blowing up the case to all mtbers, bringing attention to mtber rule breaking too? When you received disdain from the hiker, how did you respond? You at least remembered it. Do you not think disdain shown to ebikers will not be remembered? They could've been one of those low key types that didn't say a thing when they saw you breaking rules, but they may feel inclined to snitch on you too. This is turning into a slippery slope argument itself, where doing A can possibly lead to B, therefore A should be prevented to keep that possibility from rising. What's the cost or side effect(s) of not blowing up this "ebiker problem" out of proportion? Seeking to escalate it doesn't seem like a good idea, does it? Discrimination to ebikes, just discrimination to bikes in wilderness is questionable. Is it not hypocritical to discriminate against them, just like how you were discriminated by the hikers, perhaps for what equipment you had (maybe it was something else)? Is it not hypocritical that you adopt similar authoritarian traits to act politically against another group out of fear and desire for control (damage control in this case)? Who exactly are these people, and how exactly are they punching holes in the hull?

    You speak about intention and attitude being a difference regarding why breaking the rules is okay in one case, and not okay in another (flagrant). Sounds agreeable, until you look at the context and the contradictions. You don't state the rules you've broken. Are those rules valid enough that you don't want to list them? Is your specific rule breaking case, where ebikers are breaking the no motorized vehicles rule by BLM, truly flagrant? Have you read the actual wording of the rule or are you inpreting merely from the wording on what's defined as a motor vehicle and ebike? Those that have actually looked into it often join the controversy that hinges around the term "self-propelled". IMBA recognizes cat 1 ebikes being close enough to bicycles to be regulated by existing bicycle laws. They don't state that they are the same; they define the distinction similarly to PeopleForBike's categorization. Sandy Ridge is an IMBA/BLM/Northwest Trails alliance coop effort. The BLM/USFS decided to adopt each others rulings for consistency and at least one member of congress has taken it upon themselves to fight the discrimination regarding ebikes (class 1 pedal-assist in particular). The USFS rules actually say "ebikes have a motor, thereby are self-propelled". This logic is questionable; there's room for interpretation in the case of pedal-assist ebikes. NYC ebike crackdowns actually don't bust pedal-assist ebikes. Where the line is being drawn is questionable.

    You seem concerned about trail access. I'd like to ask why you are concerned and what you need it for. What if there was some equipment that improved access? Hiking boots are obviously one option. What if wheelchairs were another? You don't have to have paralysis to make use of one. Are you biased against the experience they offer? What if e-bikes were another? That's right, think about. Are there any trails you wanted to ride, but didn't have the fitness to and hesitated to try? Have you ever wondered what was down a trail you saw, but worried that you'd get lost if you explored too far and might get in over your head? Moto trails might be more enjoyable to ride too, than if you took a regular bike. Are you biased against this experience somehow? Is this bias not a problem that should be fixed? If the e-bike access is not good, people can switch to other equipment accordingly. Do you know what's the highest elevation you can legally ride a bike or ebike to in the continental US? These might be the kind of questions you ask once you feel like you have some ability--the ebike could be an enabler for fitness stuff, like a long travel bike could be an enabler for big hit stuff. White Mountain looks like a fire road with a lot of loose rock--does it look like opportunity, or does it look like suffering you'd rather not bother with?

    In effort for a "quick-fix" without obviously negative side-effects, I'd like to ask why these e-bike riders came to Sandy Ridge on that particular bike rather than a normal bike. Anyone there able to do this and get their answers? I have a feeling that if you keep asking them, even the same guys over and over, that we might be able to answer this topic better than any of these speculative, fearful, biased, prejudiced, hateful, toxic posts. There's another problem solving strategy, which involves a bottom up approach. Essentially, don't escalate what we can fix at a low level. An argument between two people might be seen as a heated debate from down low, but to higher ups, that can be seen as fighting, disruptive, and deserving of disciplinary action with a far more grim result than anyone deserves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrasher_s View Post
    Riding e-bikes in areas where motorized vehicles are banned is clearly a violation of the rules... Im not a "follow the rule because it's a rule" kind of guy, but we have to work within the system. If the rule is bad, get it changed. Flagrantly violating this rule is selfishly putting everybody's trail access at risk. I say that makes a person a jerk.
    I was down in St George this weekend. On Thursday, I was riding at Gooseberry Mesa with a local that is a volunteer "BLM Ambassador". As we pulled into the lot, we saw a guy who had just unloaded his ebike and my friend goes over to explain to him that it is illegal to ride his ebike on Gooseberry Mesa and most of the trails in the area. The guy and his buddy question his knowledge of the law and authority and when that doesn't work, the guy actually says "it's not an ebike, it's a pedal assist bike". I tell him that if he doesn't believe the BLM volunteer, he should call the guys at the local shop. I gave him the number and we left on our ride.

    When we returned to the lot, Mr ebike's truck was still though so we assumed he rode anyway. I went down into town and stopped at the shop. I asked if anybody had called asking about ebike laws. They said he called and was told there's no singletrack to legally ride, yada, yada....two days later I run into Mr ebike up on Guacamole where ebikes are also illegal.

    So we have a guy that was told politely and he chose to ride anyway. He calls the shop and was told the same thing and still had audacity to go back out again on trails he knew it was illegal to ride. By the way, his personalized Utah license plate was.....
    HIKING!!!
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    At Sandy, an electric moped is OK IMO. The trails are intended for bikes. It's just a bike park after all. Dick and Jane Hiker should have no standing if they complain about any bike related use on those trails. On shared trails, Dick and Jane Hiker are not going to make a distinction between a bicycle and an electric moped when they complain to land managers about bikes tearing up trails, going too fast, etc. Those complaints are heard, and to date, seem to carry more weight than mountains biker's requests to maintain access.

    This idea that a "pedal assist" is still a bicycle is BS. My neighbor has one. Flip a toggle switch one direction and its "pedal assist". Flip the switch the other way and it's now a twist grip speed control. It says it's 1500W. That's like 3X what a really fit rider can put down. I've ridden it on my home trail. It's heavy, handles pretty bad, but it will do 5 laps to every 3 I can do on my bike. I'm certain that if I rode it lots there would be a noticeable increase in the wear and tear on my trail. No way around the fact that nearly double the speed, the extra weight, and more power will tear things up faster.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Let me tell you straight up, man to man, without rhyme or riddle, and with minimal storytelling flair. You have extremely unrefined problem solving skill and logical reasoning. Let me tell you why.
    Etc. etc. etc.
    Let me tell you straight up, anonymous keyboard to anonymous keyboard, without a massively long winded and pretentious word salad, you obviously have a very high opinion of yourself and I'm assuming are not very fun at parties.

    E-bikes have a motor. Motors are banned at Sandy Ridge. My concerns are valid and I have two decades of experience as a trails access advocate.

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    Related to the topic: why don't people feel guilt for their wrongdoings?

    Justice - belief that itís okay to do wrong to wrong-doers
    Claim of heritage/inheritance/seniority - first come first serve rights.
    Claim of needing compensation - belief that youíre owed something, believing you have not been compensated well enough for past actions.
    Professional pursuit - belief that itís okay to do wrong, if itís to earn a living for themselves and their family, or in the name of gaining wisdom (curiosity)
    Claim of virtue - provides a valuable social service, such as entertainment and security/protection
    Petty "crime" - easier to ask for forgiveness, than for permission
    Conformity - "everyone else is doing it."
    claim of authority - someone else told them to do it, either a superior officer or perhaps their god
    YOLO - life is short
    mental instability/health issues
    religious/philosophical belief, such as nihilism (life has no meaning, therefore my action has no meaning)
    conservative self-serving values
    personal belief that an action was the right thing to do in their mind at that time
    claim to only have bad options, forced to choose least bad option

    Any others? Ignorance? Lack of common sense or reasoning?

    Also, what's defined as a wrongdoing and why? Is ad hominem (attacking people personally in an argument, rather than their stance in the argument) a wrongdoing? Is showing arrogance a wrongdoing? In a resume, maybe not, but in an argument as a form of social superiority maybe so? Is spreading misinformation a wrongdoing? Misrepresentation?

    They say there's a there's a story behind every sign. What's the story behind the no ebike sign at Sandy Ridge? I first stated the rules are the rules, but now that the case was blown up, I learned more and questioned if there's any reason to even worry about ebikers ignoring it. The trail looks pretty well made, with pavers and whatnot. Any fear can simply be addressed with risk management skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by yamaha267 View Post
    Who cares. It is not a motorcycle. It is a pedal assist bike. People need to get over this, even though it might crush their ego and go against their extreme liberal views.
    This is an interesting post to me now. It came out as offensive at first, and couldn't understand why they would think anyone would find it agreeable, but it seems that I lacked common sense and reasoning due to herd instinct. All it took was a bit of reflecting to understand this, seeing the ugliness of my own ego, especially after seeing how ugly others' egos are. There's more wrong in prejudice and discrimination than there is in pedal assist bikes disregarding a sign and riding at Sandy Ridge.
    We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    There's more wrong in prejudice and discrimination than there is in pedal assist bikes disregarding a sign and riding at Sandy Ridge.
    There are people out there who are violently opposed to e-bikes (at least from the safety of their keyboard), I'll give you that. There are also people violently opposed to mountain bikes on trails (google "bike trail booby traps" for a local Oregon example). I'm not overly concerned with either group. They are on the fringes and people in power who are making decisions tend to disregard such extreme views. I am concerned, however, with the people who wish to paint ALL mountain bikers as hooligans, lawbreakers, and trail trashing adrenaline junkies. I have heard these arguments, which are bolstered by any and all real examples, with my own ears at meetings. I have even seen forum comments from VitalMTB and Pinkbike blown up on poster board and presented as "evidence" against us. Those same people are the ones who got the language concerning access to wilderness areas changed. Prior to 1984 "motorized" vehicles were banned. Now the regulation says "mechanized"... ONE WORD is different, and we lost access to tens of thousands of miles of trails. They sprinkle a little reality on top of their generalizations and it gives them credibility in the eyes of the inexperienced. Anybody who has ridden a bike and a motorcycle knows that lumping them into the same category is ridiculous... but now ebikes come along and blur the line. MAYBE, ebikes won't cause any issues at all, we don't have any evidence either way yet. The mountain biking community has spent the last 3 decades establishing ourselves as respectful trail users who don't damage the environment, yet justification for banning us is generally emotional or based on unfounded fears. Ebikers can't just show up one day and expect to be welcomed with open arms... many members of the mountain bike community find this concerning, and Land managers are not willing to take the risk. Change one word and we are all screwed...

    In reality, Sandy Ridge is a reasonable place for ebikes. The climbs are (almost) all on roads, the trails are directional, the trails are well designed and maintained, and we have a good core of volunteers (myself included) helping to keep the trails nice. The main argument against is the increase in wear and tear from more laps being ridden (3x the laps I hope you are working on the trails 3x more). Sandy Ridge is a place with shuttle days, after all. However, it needs to be done correctly. We need to experiment first. Maybe there should be limits on power or weight. Maybe pedal assist only and no throttle controls. Just showing up and hoping for the best is only going to cause conflict. What happens when a guy shows up with an ebike that is basically an electric motocross bike retrofitted with pedals?
    However, there are many more places where ebikes make far less sense, or could even increase user conflicts or be dangerous (have you ever found yourself far from civilization with a dead battery?). I am ok with ebikes being allowed on a case-by-case basis (after some study), which is how mountain bikes are allowed, but not ok with ebikers giving ammunition to those who wish to see ALL of us blocked from current or future trails.

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    Itís a moped. You people kill me. If the gate was open that road would be the busiest section of pavement in the county. Riding up that little hill is part of the ride. If that is inconvenient mountain biking may not be the best choice. Yeah, Sandy needs a moped charging station. MRT was moped free last week. What a relief...
    Master of Laundry...Lord of Cleaning!

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    REAL quotes from the comment section on Oregonlive.com regarding a letter to the editor about bike access to Forest Park.

    Forest Park's keep-out sign: Letter to the editor | OregonLive.com

    "So what is gonna happen when those real powerful two wheel drive electric mountain bikes start climbing up those trails..?

    Ready for front wheel drives. "

    --------------
    "Soon electric bikes will be zooming silently along..and swoosh by ..scaring the gahesus outa you..they will be hard to listen for..

    Even the wildlife will be taken by surprise..maybe even squished.."

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrasher_s View Post
    REAL quotes from the comment section on Oregonlive.com regarding a letter to the editor about bike access to Forest Park.

    Forest Park's keep-out sign: Letter to the editor | OregonLive.com

    "So what is gonna happen when those real powerful two wheel drive electric mountain bikes start climbing up those trails..?

    Ready for front wheel drives. "

    --------------
    "Soon electric bikes will be zooming silently along..and swoosh by ..scaring the gahesus outa you..they will be hard to listen for..

    Even the wildlife will be taken by surprise..maybe even squished.."
    Haters gonna hate.

    The following has nothing to do with Sandy Ridge per se, just e-bikes. It's a post I added to a "predictions" thread back in December. I stand by these words.
    2018 predictions- Mtbr.com

    By the way, during the past six months I've gone from 100% anti-e-bike to pro-e-bike. Why? Although I'm currently 64 y/o and healthy, still riding 3x/wk and enjoying multi-thousand feet days (I'll ride up, thank you very much), I know I'm not always going to enjoy the strength and fitness I currently have. How far off are the days when my (younger) riding buddies jump up and say, "Hey, let's do the Umpteen Mile Hammerfest Loop tomorrow!", and I find myself responding, "I don't think I've got the UMHL in me anymore, guys. Y'all have fun without me."

    This exact scenario has already unfolded a few times now for one of my favorite riding buddies who's in his mid-70s. I miss riding the epics with him, and I must admit the epics are getting harder for me each year now. And I still ride a lot. Do I want to quit riding my favorite epic rides? Do you? This subject may be easier for me to empathize with since I might be within a decade or so of facing the inevitable. But the lucky ones among us -- ALL of them -- will all face that day at some point. Think about it then ask yourself: when do you want to quit riding mountain bikes?

    In the end I couldn't deny my ego was the only thing standing between my anti-e-bike stance and my embracing them. It doesn't matter. They'll be here whether I or you or anyone else likes it or not. I'm going to do what I can to steer the next wave of 2-wheeled singletrack lovers into being responsible trail users. I'm sure as hell not going to try to hold back the tide.

    Yeah I'm going to get an e-bike. Just a matter of time. If you're lucky, someday you will, too. Where would you like to ride it?
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Yeah I'm going to get an e-bike. Just a matter of time. If you're lucky, someday you will, too. Where would you like to ride it?
    =sParty
    While I have zero desire to own or ride an e-bike at the moment, the oldest guy in my riding group is starting to talk about getting an e-bike in the next couple years so he can keep up. He keeps up just fine right now.

    I have a feeling that once he gets an e-bike, I might see other riders in the group succumb to the temptation and start falling like dominoes. I think, for me it isn't going to be, do I still want to do rides with my older friend, it's going to be, can I keep up with the rest of the group that has gone to e-bikes. I don't have any deep hate issues for e-bikes, but tearing my guts out on a steep climb trying to keep up with a bunch of smiling guys on e-bikes just might do it for me.

    My only hope is that I can hold out another 20 years when hopefully e-bikes will be a heck of a lot cheaper, lighter, and that where you can and can't ride them is (hopefully) somewhat sorted out.
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by twd953 View Post

    I have a feeling that once he gets an e-bike, I might see other riders in the group succumb to the temptation and start falling like dominoes.
    Excellent point. I've been having trouble keeping up with some of the young guns I ride with for a long time. If I get an e-bike the tables will be turned. How long will the 20 somethings watch me pulling away on climbs before they get an ebike of thier own. Soon it won't be about fitness or determination, it will be about who has the best e-bike... the Specialized models even have a "walk assist"... for those of us who find it too difficult to WALK the bike...
    That said, my father-in-law could beat me to the top of most hills into his 70s... It must be nice to be retired and ride everyday!

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrasher_s View Post
    REAL quotes from the comment section on Oregonlive.com regarding a letter to the editor about bike access to Forest Park.

    Forest Park's keep-out sign: Letter to the editor | OregonLive.com

    "So what is gonna happen when those real powerful two wheel drive electric mountain bikes start climbing up those trails..?

    Ready for front wheel drives. "

    --------------
    "Soon electric bikes will be zooming silently along..and swoosh by ..scaring the gahesus outa you..they will be hard to listen for..

    Even the wildlife will be taken by surprise..maybe even squished.."
    *shrug* mtbers are the same. When I was out trail running due to a busted thumb, I was passed by two girls on mtbs and they laughed and joked about how high I jumped. Didn't hear them until they were like 10 feet back.

    Wildlife pops out and is squished by mtbers too, which are also silent. I see dead rodents in the trail on occasion and don't worry since that's a meal for the ants and whatever else.

    Again, need to stop blowing up the attention and overdramatizing the things that also apply to mtb. Is this not like some skiier vs snowboarder BS?

    Can't comment on stuff that hasn't happened already. I don't wear a tin foil hat for all the other stuff people are afraid of like HAARP or nuclear apocalypse. There's risk management for all this kind of stuff. Why fear new tech? Just like most new tech, it probably won't stick around unless it comes with a price tag and performance level that rivals other options out there.
    We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Again, need to stop blowing up the attention and overdramatizing the things that also apply to mtb. Is this not like some skiier vs snowboarder BS?
    Cutting off your nose to spite your face.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    *shrug* mtbers are the same. When I was out trail running due to a busted thumb, I was passed by two girls on mtbs and they laughed and joked about how high I jumped. Didn't hear them until they were like 10 feet back.
    You don't seem to understand the point there. Being startled is only 1/2 of his concern, and it's legitimate. My bike is pretty quiet (unless I'm going uphill... then my breathing is probably pretty noticeable) and I try my best to announce my presence early. Especially to people on horseback! The more important point is that he or she is using e-bikes to argue against mountain bike access to the biggest park in Portland.

    We have spent 30 years addressing the concerns of anti-bike people. Ebikes are a new concern that needs to be understood and addressed, not ignored or brushed off! Just showing up with an ebike and hoping for the best isn't the answer.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Haters gonna hate.

    The following has nothing to do with Sandy Ridge per se, just e-bikes. It's a post I added to a "predictions" thread back in December. I stand by these words.
    2018 predictions- Mtbr.com

    By the way, during the past six months I've gone from 100% anti-e-bike to pro-e-bike. Why? Although I'm currently 64 y/o and healthy, still riding 3x/wk and enjoying multi-thousand feet days (I'll ride up, thank you very much), I know I'm not always going to enjoy the strength and fitness I currently have. How far off are the days when my (younger) riding buddies jump up and say, "Hey, let's do the Umpteen Mile Hammerfest Loop tomorrow!", and I find myself responding, "I don't think I've got the UMHL in me anymore, guys. Y'all have fun without me."

    This exact scenario has already unfolded a few times now for one of my favorite riding buddies who's in his mid-70s. I miss riding the epics with him, and I must admit the epics are getting harder for me each year now. And I still ride a lot. Do I want to quit riding my favorite epic rides? Do you? This subject may be easier for me to empathize with since I might be within a decade or so of facing the inevitable. But the lucky ones among us -- ALL of them -- will all face that day at some point. Think about it then ask yourself: when do you want to quit riding mountain bikes?

    In the end I couldn't deny my ego was the only thing standing between my anti-e-bike stance and my embracing them. It doesn't matter. They'll be here whether I or you or anyone else likes it or not. I'm going to do what I can to steer the next wave of 2-wheeled singletrack lovers into being responsible trail users. I'm sure as hell not going to try to hold back the tide.

    Yeah I'm going to get an e-bike. Just a matter of time. If you're lucky, someday you will, too. Where would you like to ride it?
    =sParty
    So you WERE against ebikes until you realized that YOU might want to get one. How convenient. As a mountain biker, you should be concerned what's best for EVERYBODY rather than just yourself. Maybe they can pave the trails too when it gets too hard for you to get to the top on your ebike.
    Carpe Diem!!

  50. #50
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    If you continue to preach advocacy through discrimination as a defense strategy, I can see why the other group's political jockeying seems so threatening. Oh, those poachers are different. Those gravity racer types are different. Those vitalMTB and pinkbike posters are different. Those "other asshole" (e.g. Strava racers, those lacking respect for the environment, other rule breakers) types are different. How do you understand and address poachers, gravity racer types, those posters, and "other assholes"? Anything similar to your plan for ebikes? I personally don't see groups. I see individual people who choose from one of the many reasons I posted above to not feel guilt, mostly the conformity one and petty crime one; other people did it and didn't get in trouble, so it's assumed to be tolerated.

    Problem solving skills? Logical reasoning? I've seen some advocacy groups put money towards getting bells out there for mtbers. Even seen a box with free bells at a trailhead, co-sponsored by REI (Noble Canyon, but was empty). Ran into at least 3 groups of hikers in 1 day there.

    There's the bottom-up approach, questioning the need to escalate something that you can fix it yourself. Why overly rely than advocacy groups when you can do something yourself? I've tried a few different bells, one that rings continuously that can be silenced at will, and the typical ringer types. There was one time last summer when I descended with the continuous ringing bell and encountered a lady MTBer around a sharp right hander that was blind. She was seemingly lost planning on pushing her bike up what's usually a DH with relatively steep parts (Terry's Wall). She said "thank god you had a bell", when I rounded the corner and passed as she waited off to the side. I think the rider behind me got her straightened out. In another case, I rode uphill on a trail where it's assumed that uphill has right of way (signage at bottom), and was glad I was behind a bigger rider, who had his electronic auto ringing bell going (had it attached to his seatstay, and it rings in a random pattern), as some DH rider just squeezed by the space we made for him without any effort to communicate, with a little contact. Ride buddy got angered by that and simply cried about there being a yield rule. No harm done, so no grudge here, but some people get really worked up. We were on the exposed side of the trail (San Juan Trail).

    All sorts of ways to address trail access and advocacy. Why insist on choosing one that mtbers can't agree on, over others? Let me remind everyone that a massive reason why people feel safe these days is that the potential of evil has been blunted by various restrictions (e.g. checks and balances and representatives for our "democracy"). What's better than laws/rules? Laws/rules + religious, philosophical, and moral/ethical beliefs. IMO, just double down on rules. Post those detailed signs up, regarding rules of the trail (AKA trail etiquette) and why we need them. Aim for effect, or in other words, design them to remind people to not be jerks. If riders not being jerks is not good enough, and you truly feel a need to reduce traffic/access, just divert riders to a new home; people generally go where they think it's better or are better rewarded for their time/effort investment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    So you WERE against ebikes until you realized that YOU might want to get one. How convenient. As a mountain biker, you should be concerned what's best for EVERYBODY rather than just yourself. Maybe they can pave the trails too when it gets too hard for you to get to the top on your ebike.
    As I pointed out previously, it was my selfish ego that kept me from embracing e-bikes in the beginning. Since then I've moved beyond a selfish, emotion-based perspective to a more logical one.

    I think we may know one another, k2rider1964. In the flesh most mountain bikers know me as Davey Sprockett, King of the Wild Front Tire. If you do know me, then you already know I've spent the past 30 years being concerned about what's best for the sport of mountain biking in the Willamette Valley, in the state of Oregon and beyond.

    Not everyone will live long enough to want/need an e-bike. But as I said before, the lucky ones will. I hope you & I are still riding two-wheeled machines together whenever the day arrives that you, yourself, feel the need to consider pedal assisted riding, my friend. At that time you can thank me for planning now for (y)our future access.
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    So if they are currently illegal than I say don't ride them.

    I 100% think they should be legal though. Might take awhile for the USFS, and whatnot to catch up with the rules?

    I have no intentions of buying one, but I really think they should be allowed.
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    Advocacy through discrimination.... free bells... WTF are you talking about? This is 100% about doing things the right way. Poaching trails and breaking rules hurts the whole community, period.

    Our fight is not with reality, but with public PERCEPTION. Our "opponents" use emotion and baseless fears to counter our evidence and facts...

    A word of advice for e-bikers: "because I want to", "because it's easier", and "it's not a big deal" aren't going to cut it when it's time to please your case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KTMDirtFace View Post
    So if they are currently illegal than I say don't ride them.

    I 100% think they should be legal though. Might take awhile for the USFS, and whatnot to catch up with the rules?

    I have no intentions of buying one, but I really think they should be allowed.
    This viewpoint is perfectly reasonable, and I mostly agree. The people who want to ride them need to make a case and advocate for themselves. Sooner rather than later otherwise they risk turning public perception against them. USFS and BLM are mostly run by non-mountain bikers, and they clearly listen to advocacy groups who don't want us on our own trails, and especially not "thier" trails.
    We are all ambassadors of our respective sports, like it or not...

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrasher_s View Post
    ...
    Advocacy through discrimination.... free bells... WTF are you talking about? This is 100% about doing things the right way. Poaching trails and breaking rules hurts the whole community, period.

    Our fight is not with reality, but with public PERCEPTION. Our "opponents" use emotion and baseless fears to counter our evidence and facts...

    A word of advice for e-bikers: "because I want to", "because it's easier", and "it's not a big deal" aren't going to cut it when it's time to please your case.
    Perception games are a dirty battle, since you generally can't make a dent in opposition defenses without hugely misrepresenting things to astronomical proportions. It's technically twisting the truth with interpretation/semantics that heavily favors your side, but to others it's outright lying. If you can do this, you're well on your way to a higher political position.

    Reason is typically non-negotiable and a solid defense, but you waste a ton of resources to work with it.

    You need strategy. If you want better perception of ebikes, you have to take what they value, say a zero emissions world, and say that ebikes are a key to such a future. Show them the efficiency of velomobiles and such. Tell them that growing this sector will fund technology to accelerate it. Show examples of people commuting by ebikes and relying less on cars. More ebikes, and less SUVs. Do a big "what if", that shows what the world would be like if you replaced SUVs in America with ebikes... shock the hell out of them.

    Basically, if they're fueled by propaganda and are very closed minded to the same stuff you've been feeding them, you need to realize this and circumvent it. No point in defending if they got a castle and are equipped with siege weapons and you're just trying to head a bunch of militia that you tried to dress up all nice. They're just charging and smacking a few men down to reveal that they are the assholes that their leadership said they were, under the fancy uniform you gave everyone. Sandy Ridge is supposed to be like our castle. We need to show what we're proud of and that we're the better way forward. Hikers look to MTBers and ask why they ride instead of hike, and "because I want to" "because it's easier" and "it's not a big deal"... what kind of lame hypocritical defense is that?
    We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    You need strategy. If you want better perception of ebikes, you have to take what they value, say a zero emissions world, and say that ebikes are a key to such a future. Show them the efficiency of velomobiles and such. Tell them that growing this sector will fund technology to accelerate it. Show examples of people commuting by ebikes and relying less on cars. More ebikes, and less SUVs. Do a big "what if", that shows what the world would be like if you replaced SUVs in America with ebikes... shock the hell out of them.
    People still complain about motorcycles lane sharing, even though lane sharing reduces traffic and reduces fuel use. People are irrational.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewalk View Post
    People still complain about motorcycles lane sharing, even though lane sharing reduces traffic and reduces fuel use. People are irrational.
    Exactly. Folks against motorcycle lane sharing don't like motorcycles getting ahead of them in traffic. It's a subconscious, primal, self-centered, egocentric response. "Hey, they got ahead of me! Not fair! I was first!" These people are not thinking of the bigger picture. Safer. Less pollution. Less traffic. They're not even considering that they could do the same thing if they wanted to -- just get a motorcycle (and endure all the inconveniences and risks that come with riding one).

    Parallel lines can be drawn between the primal, subconscious feelings / negative emotional responses some mountain bikers find comfort in using against e-bikes. "That fat guy didn't work hard enough to pass me going up this hill! Not fair! Ban e-bikes! Take his advantage away!"

    Whatever. Let the e-biker pass. They're on an e-bike. I'm not. It doesn't matter. The world is not judging anyone.

    Let's ride our bikes just as we always have. Now maybe we'll understand how hikers feel when they get passed by mountain bikers on the trail.

    Is getting passed demeaning? Doesn't have to be. Unfair? That's actually funny if we take a moment to think about it. If you're a hiker and want to go faster, get a mountain bike. If you're a mountain biker and don't want to get passed by an e-bike, get an e-bike.

    Or don't. Enjoy your awesome mountain bike just as you always have. Despite the advent of e-bikes, your mountain bike is just as good as it ever was. And so are you. Live and let live.

    So we're no longer king of the hill. It ain't about us. Let's stop wallowing in our precious egos and keep enjoying mountain biking as much as we ever did. Nothing's changed. Except that mountain bikes aren't the fastest way to travel through the forest anymore.

    So what.
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewalk View Post
    People still complain about motorcycles lane sharing, even though lane sharing reduces traffic and reduces fuel use. People are irrational.
    Need to go waaaaay beyond showing pictures like this:

    Ebikes at Sandy Ridge?-45eeca43-07a6-4d33-9123-bb909802b3ff_cx0_cy2_cw0_w1023_r1_s.jpg

    Ideally, you shouldn't waste your resources reinforcing, reverifying, and fact checking current reason. Seek new reason and use it to tell a great story. The story can make it seem like fantasy dream seem like it's within reach in reality, or it can simply result in you seeming like good people. Point out how much the hikers can save if they switch from their cars to a the most efficient vehicle in the world: bikes. Question why they use a vehicle for merely transporting a single person and taking up a ridiculous amount of space, one that rivals the size of my bedroom. Video on the high cost of "free parking": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Akm7ik-H_7U (TL;DW: cars are a HUGE reason why property costs are so high that people can't afford homes)

    Don't attack them, but destroy their castle. Show them the better alternative, which is bikes (they'll go where the grass is greener). Point out why mtbs and ebikes are better than the motor vehicles that were banned. MX were banned since they didn't obey trail etiquette, notably leaving no trace. One huge threat was that their fluids posed a hazard to contaminate water sheds. Point out lithium was only able to reach the mass market due to their safety breakthroughs. Point to the trends that are actually desirable, such as reducing vehicle traffic and being a health lifestyle, which reduces the burden and public spending on these related sectors.

    Take my case for example. Here's a snip of my ride log for about a month:

    Ebikes at Sandy Ridge?-krscmzu.png
    - This is not normal mileage. This is from riding to the trailhead and back, foregoing a car for getting to the trailhead (some are just 20-30mi shopping runs). They can't hike this, and I doubt they can do this on a normal bike without training. Skip the training requirement with the ebike, and dial back the assist once you have the fitness.

    Ebikes at Sandy Ridge?-krb48kb.png
    - Example of a route you can take, riding to the trails.

    Be on the lookout for new exciting developments and trends that make your case more appealing. For example here's a random article I just found with minimal research: https://longreads.com/2017/05/19/my-...-not-cheating/ (electric bike didn't replace this guy's bike, they replaced his car, and he saw how much better things are on a bike than in a car)

    Use this type of stuff to build a castle that acts as defense, then move onto offense. Start video taping hikers asking them about bikers. Hope that they show biased judgement; could do the same with mtbers about ebikers. The more biased and hateful the responses the better, for the next phase of the plan. This is where you get reactions from people who don't have investment in either side. Ask them if this is discrimination and if they're wrong. xD

    If there's an elephant in the room, only the weak minded will point it out. There's so many ways to take a situation and turn it in your favor. Stop being so closed minded; if you used more than a fraction of your head, you should be able to figure out a way that meshed with what you came prepared with, and got a result you desire. You came prepared enough, you could have the elephant crush the opposing side. If others see that you are resourceful, and have what you need to make such a plan that benefits you both... that is, if you didn't turn them into enemies due to similar discrimination and hate and refuse to to work with them on principle...

    I see IMBA and BikeBelong/PeopleForBikes as taking a stance that looks to the future. IMBA seems to take the bottom up approach. Seems like some have asked what if they spent all this lobbying money on trail building instead and improved the perception the biking by trying to better understand the other groups, like Sierra Club. If you take a look, you might find that they have similar desires and values as us, rather than whatever perception you might have of them (hateful anti-bike hikers?). PFB is focusing on the road side of things. All the media houses are practically industry trade groups too, considering where they get their money, except they work on profit and do little to improve the community, besides stirring pot of controversy and throwing in ingredients to alter the taste.
    We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking.

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    I've been supportive of eBikes since the first time one went flying by me on a hill in San Diego on my commute. I didn't want one. But my thought was "One less car". Pretty sure it was a UCSD student, as she had the look and I was passing UCSD at the time.

    Then I had an eBike give me a tow on my commute home. He could do 18? 23? MPH (can't remember) and I just sat on his wheel. My commute home was 30 miles and it was a nice break. I got passed up a hill yesterday on Allesandro on my way to the shop road ride by an older guy. Again "one less car".

    I have no interest in owning one. But I think they are a fantastic solution to a lot of problems we have. Traffic, pollution, fitness, heat island effect, road rage...

  60. #60
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    Long story short:

    Ask if you're fighting the wrong war.

    Drop the ego and realize that it might help to have more allies, more options, and more resources to handle some bigger problems.
    We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewalk View Post
    I've been supportive of eBikes since the first time one went flying by me on a hill in San Diego on my commute. I didn't want one. But my thought was "One less car". Pretty sure it was a UCSD student, as she had the look and I was passing UCSD at the time.

    Then I had an eBike give me a tow on my commute home. He could do 18? 23? MPH (can't remember) and I just sat on his wheel. My commute home was 30 miles and it was a nice break. I got passed up a hill yesterday on Allesandro on my way to the shop road ride by an older guy. Again "one less car".

    I have no interest in owning one. But I think they are a fantastic solution to a lot of problems we have. Traffic, pollution, fitness, heat island effect, road rage...
    I think e-bikes are awesome on the road, though I still prefer a motorcycle. On trails though... to early to tell. Right now I'm not in favor until things get ironed out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Exactly. Folks against motorcycle lane sharing don't like motorcycles getting ahead of them in traffic. It's a subconscious, primal, self-centered, egocentric response. "Hey, they got ahead of me! Not fair! I was first!" These people are not thinking of the bigger picture. Safer. Less pollution. Less traffic. They're not even considering that they could do the same thing if they wanted to -- just get a motorcycle (and endure all the inconveniences and risks that come with riding one).

    Parallel lines can be drawn between the primal, subconscious feelings / negative emotional responses some mountain bikers find comfort in using against e-bikes. "That fat guy didn't work hard enough to pass me going up this hill! Not fair! Ban e-bikes! Take his advantage away!"

    Whatever. Let the e-biker pass. They're on an e-bike. I'm not. It doesn't matter. The world is not judging anyone.

    Let's ride our bikes just as we always have. Now maybe we'll understand how hikers feel when they get passed by mountain bikers on the trail.

    Is getting passed demeaning? Doesn't have to be. Unfair? That's actually funny if we take a moment to think about it. If you're a hiker and want to go faster, get a mountain bike. If you're a mountain biker and don't want to get passed by an e-bike, get an e-bike.

    Or don't. Enjoy your awesome mountain bike just as you always have. Despite the advent of e-bikes, your mountain bike is just as good as it ever was. And so are you. Live and let live.

    So we're no longer king of the hill. It ain't about us. Let's stop wallowing in our precious egos and keep enjoying mountain biking as much as we ever did. Nothing's changed. Except that mountain bikes aren't the fastest way to travel through the forest anymore.

    So what.
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    C'mon man... none of this has to do with ego. It is 100% about maintaining or increasing trail access.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbmaddux View Post
    I couldn't find anything. Try calling them and reporting back?
    So, I just spoke to the BLM at the number I posted. I asked if it was "ok / legal / authorized / permitted" to ride a pedal assist e-bike at Sandy Ridge or Alsea Falls trail systems.

    Their representative said yes.

    Hope this helps,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Long story short:

    Ask if you're fighting the wrong war.

    Drop the ego and realize that it might help to have more allies, more options, and more resources to handle some bigger problems.
    Ha! The voice of reason!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattrwills View Post
    Sure, I'll tell him that until he is 5x the weight his bike weight, he shouldn't expect to ride from the top. Have you pedaled a bike 1/2 your weight uphill?

    It amazes me how we sell our kids short. Give them a hardtail, tubes, cantis, rigid, they won't know the difference and will fall in love with the sport. Or, give them our technology (tuned suspension, disc brakes, good tires, etc.), take them to the top, and watch them shred.

    I smile every time.
    It amazes me how parents will spend thousands of dollars on things like e-bikes while short-changing their kids. For what a Turbo Levo costs, you could have a cool, lightweight bike custom-built for your kid.

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    Haters and purists gonna hate. It's good for everyone, more bikes(assist, or not) = more trails.

    They're not going away, get used to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoS View Post
    ......It's good for everyone, more bikes(assist, or not) = more trails.
    Can you explain how that works? Have some data you can cite?
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    I don't get that argument either. Go ride post canyon and it becomes immediately apparent which trails see motorized tires.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Can you explain how that works? Have some data you can cite?
    Not that complex, think supply and demand.

    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    I don't get that argument either. Go ride post canyon and it becomes immediately apparent which trails see motorized tires.
    You'd be a fool if you think i'm going to debate you comparing moto trail damage to ebikes.

    Also fwiw I don't ride ebikes, and couldn't care less if people want to ride them at Sandy, i'll still be passing them on the downside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoS View Post


    You'd be a fool if you think i'm going to debate you comparing moto trail damage to ebikes.
    Except electric power to rival combustion power in a light mountain bike like package is here with more to come. Otherwise point taken.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    Except electric power to rival combustion power in a light mountain bike like package is here with more to come. Otherwise point taken.
    I don't fear pedal-assist. In fact I embrace it. Throttles... different story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    Except electric power to rival combustion power in a light mountain bike like package is here with more to come. Otherwise point taken.
    When they start talking about rolling out pedal assist bikes that can throw a 30ft roost i'm totally open to discussion about additional regulation, and categorization of them as a motorcycle. I just don't see it happening anytime soon. Thus far it looks like a knee jerk reaction to what is a very a slight change.(ban assault MTBs) To be honest at this point we have bigger fish to fry, like improvements to existing trail systems. Signage, and additional trail designation at PC for one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoS View Post
    Not that complex, think supply and demand.
    E-bikes might lead to more places like Sandy. Not a win IMO, but good for those that enjoy a bike park experience I guess.

    E-bikes will make it more difficult to retain access on shared trails. They just give other user groups more ammunition in the form of higher speeds and more wear and tear in their efforts to restrict MTB access to those trails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    E-bikes might lead to more places like Sandy. Not a win IMO, but good for those that enjoy a bike park experience I guess.

    E-bikes will make it more difficult to retain access on shared trails. They just give other user groups more ammunition in the form of higher speeds and more wear and tear in their efforts to restrict MTB access to those trails.
    Sounds like we probably have different definitions of what a "bike park" is. I for one am all for sanctioned trails without the risk of hikers, off-leash dogs, and horse crap.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoS View Post
    When they start talking about rolling out pedal assist bikes that can throw a 30ft roost i'm totally open to discussion about additional regulation, and categorization of them as a motorcycle.
    60+ MPH... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oNKWAcBA9s

    You may be in denial but once the ebike door is fully open, we'll see all sorts of crazy ebikes out on those same trails. I know, I know, you're going to say they'll never be "legal" but that doesn't stop stupid people as evidenced by the fact that ebikes are illegal in many places for now yet I keep seeing ebikes on trails where they aren't legal as it is.
    Carpe Diem!!

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    60+ MPH... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oNKWAcBA9s

    You may be in denial but once the ebike door is fully open, we'll see all sorts of crazy ebikes out on those same trails. I know, I know, you're going to say they'll never be "legal" but that doesn't stop stupid people as evidenced by the fact that ebikes are illegal in many places for now yet I keep seeing ebikes on trails where they aren't legal as it is.
    The vehicles in that video are defined as mopeds by Washington state laws which are already in place. It's not your duty to enforce said laws. Take your issue up with the county/land manager and get on with your ride.

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    If everyone wants to compare ebikes to moto...

    When's the last time you saw a moto riding a non-motorized trail? Ever seen one at Sandy?

    I personally never have. I saw a moto track once on coyote loop in Bend pretty far out which did no damage.

    There will also be a pretty significant form factor change once you have power enough to ride as fast and as far as a moto. It will look like a moto.

    They can be quieter for sure - but they will be conspicuous.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoS View Post
    The vehicles in that video are defined as mopeds by Washington state laws which are already in place. It's not your duty to enforce said laws. Take your issue up with the county/land manager and get on with your ride.
    You could be a politician as you talked around the points I made. I don't care what they are "classified" as. Just like an ebike IS a moped whether you or anybody else wants to classify it as such. mo∑ped ˈmōˌped noun: a low-power, lightweight motorized bicycle = ebike. If/when they legalize the Class 1 ebikes/mopeds, the door will be wide open as there is little to no enforcement as it is out on the trails in most areas.
    Carpe Diem!!

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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    You could be a politician as you talked around the points I made. I don't care what they are "classified" as. Just like an ebike IS a moped whether you or anybody else wants to classify it as such. mo∑ped ˈmōˌped noun: a low-power, lightweight motorized bicycle = ebike. If/when they legalize the Class 1 ebikes/mopeds, the door will be wide open as there is little to no enforcement as it is out on the trails in most areas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    E-bikes might lead to more places like Sandy. Not a win IMO, but good for those that enjoy a bike park experience I guess.

    E-bikes will make it more difficult to retain access on shared trails. They just give other user groups more ammunition in the form of higher speeds and more wear and tear in their efforts to restrict MTB access to those trails.
    Similar "sky is falling" statements were leveled against mountain bikes by hikers 30 years ago. And you know what? They were right. Mountain bikes took over. Sometimes we go too fast. Some of us are dicks to other trail users. We mountain bikers can thank open-minded, farsighted land managers for our right to ride trails today.

    You can thank those open-minded land managers again when you're 60-something and are legally able to continue to do epic rides with your younger riding buddies who'd otherwise leave you in their dust. By "otherwise" I mean if you couldn't ride your god blessed e-bike. Yes this day will come to all the lucky ones. (Injuries, inabilities or worse will stop the unlucky ones before they get there.) 60s... 70s... at what age do you want to quit riding bikes through the woods? The e-bike, used responsibly (which is the only way it can be used, actually) will be your -- our -- ticket to more precious years in the saddle.

    Again I harken back 30 years when I remember so well the hiking community saying similar things about us to what we are saying about e-bikes now. But back then all we wanted to do was get the hikers to try a mountain bike. We knew they'd get bit if they'd only give it a chance.

    For anyone that hasn't already done so, go give an e-bike a whirl. You will be assimilated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sketchbook View Post
    ...When's the last time you saw a moto riding a non-motorized trail?
    Pretty regularly at Browns Camp/University falls. Non moto trail in close proximity to moto trails, it happens regularly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoS View Post
    Sounds like we probably have different definitions of what a "bike park" is. I for one am all for sanctioned trails without the risk of hikers, off-leash dogs, and horse crap.
    That's why somewhere earlier in this thread I stated that I don't really care about e-bikes at Sandy. Since it is for bikes only, has a substantial amount of added gravel and armored spots it falls into what I call a bike park. There should not be any hiker/horse user issues there.

    Shared trails are what I'm concerned about. As e-bikes become more prevalent on trails like Lewis River, Siouxon Creek, Falls Creek, Tarbell, 3 Corner Rock, etc. that are very popular with hikers and or horse use is where the problems will occur. We're not going to see bike only routes put in parallel to those trails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Similar "sky is falling" statements were leveled against mountain bikes by hikers 30 years ago. And you know what? They were right. Mountain bikes took over. Sometimes we go too fast. Some of us are dicks to other trail users. We mountain bikers can thank open-minded, farsighted land managers for our right to ride trails today.
    The best potential for riding singletrack in the Portland area was made off limits to bikes by those complaining hikers 30+ years ago. There has been an ongoing effort by MTB groups pretty much ever since to get access back or get new bike only trails. Pretty much without success. When hiker groups raise enough stink it seems they get attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    For anyone that hasn't already done so, go give an e-bike a whirl. You will be assimilated.
    I've ridden my neighbors and it seems I'm not ready for assimilation yet despite turning 60 this year. It's heavy. Doesn't handle very well, but I imagine that's more of a familiarity thing. On my home trail around my 3 acres it's nearly twice as fast though. Especially when it is in throttle mode.
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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    You could be a politician as you talked around the points I made. I don't care what they are "classified" as. Just like an ebike IS a moped whether you or anybody else wants to classify it as such. mo∑ped ˈmōˌped noun: a low-power, lightweight motorized bicycle = ebike. If/when they legalize the Class 1 ebikes/mopeds, the door will be wide open as there is little to no enforcement as it is out on the trails in most areas.
    So sounds like i'd have your vote then since I don't believe mopeds that can accelerate on throttle alone should have the same access as a pedal-assist bikes? And that these bikes should be regulated at the manufacturer level to stop assisting after a certain speed is reached as many of the popular existing systems already are.(shimano,bosch) Enforcement is a slippery slope, who in their right mind wants to introduce even more bureaucracy into riding bikes at this point? Blanket banning "ebikes" obviously isn't a mutually acceptable solution, and generalizing them as is happening in this thread isn't an appropriate way to get a discussion rolling.

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    Correct, the BLM has a nation wide policy on no ebikes on trail manage for non motorized use.
    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    To the best of my knowledge, the BLM has a no ebike policy as well....unless they've gone to a "it depends on the area" policy

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoS View Post
    So sounds like i'd have your vote then since I don't believe mopeds that can accelerate on throttle alone should have the same access as a pedal-assist bikes? And that these bikes should be regulated at the manufacturer level to stop assisting after a certain speed is reached as many of the popular existing systems already are.(shimano,bosch) Enforcement is a slippery slope, who in their right mind wants to introduce even more bureaucracy into riding bikes at this point? Blanket banning "ebikes" obviously isn't a mutually acceptable solution, and generalizing them as is happening in this thread isn't an appropriate way to get a discussion rolling.
    Who wants to introduce more beaurocracy to biking? Me. Don't be lazy with trail advocacy against motorized use or sh!theads will take over.

    Ebikes are a big growing problem to sustaining trails and if you prefer to coat them with generalizations defense than go get a dirtbike and go make your own trails to [email protected]#k up and endanger others with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by homeslice View Post
    Who wants to introduce more beaurocracy to biking? Me. Don't be lazy with trail advocacy against motorized use or sh!theads will take over.
    Are you calling everyone who rides a motorized bike a shithead? I ride a dirt bike. Are you calling me a shithead?

    Quote Originally Posted by homeslice View Post
    Ebikes are a big growing problem to sustaining trails
    Please cite evidence. I'm not implying evidence doesn't exist, just that I'm unaware of it. If it's out there, I'd like to see it. I need to see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by homeslice View Post
    if you prefer to coat them with generalizations defense than go get a dirtbike and go make your own trails to [email protected]#k up and endanger others with.
    Not sure exactly what you're saying here. Are you saying that in every case pedal-assist e-bike use will [email protected]#k up trails and endanger other users? That's the same argument that hikers leveled against us mountain bikers 30 years ago. Did we mountain bikers [email protected]#k up trails and do we endanger other users? Were we mountain bikers then -- and are we now -- bad for trails? Should today's human-powered mountain bike be banned from all multi-use trails?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sketchbook View Post
    If everyone wants to compare ebikes to moto...

    When's the last time you saw a moto riding a non-motorized trail?.
    My experience is a lot different than yours. I ride all over the country and would say moto's make it on to just about any trail in proximity to people that own motos or areas where people ride motos. I grew up riding moto way before mountain biking was a thing. Poaching and riding illegal areas was a common practice for lack of legal areas to ride. Can't imagine much has changed there. The difference now being "ebikes" can produce similar power in a mountain bike like package.
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  88. #88
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    Yes I'm calling anyone who rides motorized bikes on nondesignated motorbike trails shitheads, including you if you are. Learn to read fine print.

    Hikers STILL have problems with mountain bikers endangering trails 30 years later.

    Ebikes cause ruts and also endanger users on one way designated trails over their implied motive to travel up dh lines. And don't try to deflect that point with some irrespondible fluff by self propelled riders doing the same. Breaking rules doesn't give you some excuse to do the same. And your asking for evidence to matters of complaints as common as littering. If you haven't experienced the problems by ebikes you're a liar, stuffed in a bubble or supporting a sport to grow enough to evaluate evidence but had already gained permission with no way to control or enforce it.

    You're waiting for evidence because that would mean its permitted in abundance to evaluate It's impacts and self propelled cyclist aren't stupid enough to permit that kind of bullshit.

    Write your own sociology dissertation on the problems behind ebikes since nobody else is stupid enough to. The answers are odvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Are you calling everyone who rides a motorized bike a shithead? I ride a dirt bike. Are you calling me a shithead?


    Please cite evidence. I'm not implying evidence doesn't exist, just that I'm unaware of it. If it's out there, I'd like to see it. I need to see it.


    Not sure exactly what you're saying here. Are you saying that in every case pedal-assist e-bike use will [email protected]#k up trails and endanger other users? That's the same argument that hikers leveled against us mountain bikers 30 years ago. Did we mountain bikers [email protected]#k up trails and do we endanger other users? Were we mountain bikers then -- and are we now -- bad for trails? Should today's human-powered mountain bike be banned from all multi-use trails?
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    My experience is a lot different than yours. I ride all over the country and would say moto's make it on to just about any trail in proximity to people that own motos or areas where people ride motos. I grew up riding moto way before mountain biking was a thing. Poaching and riding illegal areas was a common practice for lack of legal areas to ride. Can't imagine much has changed there. The difference now being "ebikes" can produce similar power in a mountain bike like package.
    I'm no big fan (or non-fan) of e-bikes, but this statement isn't correct. I live in Hood River, and Post Canyon pretty much defines moto trails in VERY close proximity to non-moto trails.

    I ride alot. Last year and this year so far I've seen moto tracks on exactly one non-moto trail, and it is the highest non-moto trail in the entire network (Sexy Beast). One track.

    Maybe small town civility and consideration?
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    Quote Originally Posted by homeslice View Post
    Yes I'm calling anyone who rides motorized bikes on nondesignated motorbike trails shitheads, including you if you are. Learn to read fine print.

    Hikers STILL have problems with mountain bikers endangering trails 30 years later.

    Ebikes cause ruts and also endanger users on one way designated trails over their implied motive to travel up dh lines. And don't try to deflect that point with some irrespondible fluff by self propelled riders doing the same. Breaking rules doesn't give you some excuse to do the same. And your asking for evidence to matters of complaints as common as littering. If you haven't experienced the problems by ebikes you're a liar, stuffed in a bubble or supporting a sport to grow enough to evaluate evidence but had already gained permission with no way to control or enforce it.

    You're waiting for evidence because that would mean its permitted in abundance to evaluate It's impacts and self propelled cyclist aren't stupid enough to permit that kind of bullshit.

    Write your own sociology dissertation on the problems behind ebikes since nobody else is stupid enough to. The answers are odvious.
    I do my best to avoid arguing with an idiot since eventually it becomes difficult for bystanders to determine who is who. See you on the trail.
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    homeslice - I hope not to cause too much butthurt. I am no fan of any assist on non-motorized trails. But you seem very angry and dismissive of other points of view.
    Really - to the point where you are the worst advocate of your point of view.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo View Post
    I'm no big fan (or non-fan) of e-bikes, but this statement isn't correct. I live in Hood River, and Post Canyon pretty much defines moto trails in VERY close proximity to non-moto trails.

    I ride alot. Last year and this year so far I've seen moto tracks on exactly one non-moto trail, and it is the highest non-moto trail in the entire network (Sexy Beast). One track.

    Maybe small town civility and consideration?
    You say my statement is incorrect and follow it up with saying you see moto tracks on a mtb specific trail...lol.
    Post is an interesting dynamic where you have trails like dirt surfer that were built for and maintained by mtbr's yet are open to and can get torn up by motos.

    Bend and to a lesser extent Hood are not representative of mtb trail USA. You have a large population of mtbr's and with that comes some level of vigilance. That's both good and bad I guess as dumbing stuff down becomes a bigger factor as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    To the best of my knowledge, the BLM has a no ebike policy as well....unless they've gone to a "it depends on the area" policy
    Correct. BLM has same national policy as FS, no ebikes on trails managed for non motorized use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Similar "sky is falling" statements were leveled against mountain bikes by hikers 30 years ago. And you know what? They were right. Mountain bikes took over. Sometimes we go too fast. Some of us are dicks to other trail users. We mountain bikers can thank open-minded, farsighted land managers for our right to ride trails today.

    You can thank those open-minded land managers again when you're 60-something and are legally able to continue to do epic rides with your younger riding buddies who'd otherwise leave you in their dust. By "otherwise" I mean if you couldn't ride your god blessed e-bike. Yes this day will come to all the lucky ones. (Injuries, inabilities or worse will stop the unlucky ones before they get there.) 60s... 70s... at what age do you want to quit riding bikes through the woods? The e-bike, used responsibly (which is the only way it can be used, actually) will be your -- our -- ticket to more precious years in the saddle.

    Again I harken back 30 years when I remember so well the hiking community saying similar things about us to what we are saying about e-bikes now. But back then all we wanted to do was get the hikers to try a mountain bike. We knew they'd get bit if they'd only give it a chance.

    For anyone that hasn't already done so, go give an e-bike a whirl. You will be assimilated.
    =sParty
    I agree completely and add that if you took all the innovations to the first rigid,steel, mountain bikes over the years, the advantages (shocks,wheels,tires,frames,drivetrains...) would vastly exceed the difference between a new carbon MTB and a class one pedal-assist ebike.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by debaucherous View Post
    homeslice - I hope not to cause too much butthurt. I am no fan of any assist on non-motorized trails. But you seem very angry and dismissive of other points of view.
    Really - to the point where you are the worst advocate of your point of view.
    It's Friday, go for a ride and have a good weekend.
    Butthurt. You really should get out of the basement more if a post about emotorbikes on mountain bike trails is your idea of anger. Carry some mace, you might encounter an mad emoji online someday.

    Start making your own ebike trails for the worlds tourist trap amatuer cyclists to f◊ųk up. I don't care how you take my "advocacy". If you're trying to get motorsports on people's hard earned trails designed for self propelled use then, again, go f#%^ yourself. And that's not anger, that's honesty.





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    Quote Originally Posted by homeslice View Post
    go f#%^ yourself.
    To homeslice and anyone else who doesn't show respect to other people:

    MTBR is a community. As a community, it's up to the people who enjoy participating in these forums to decide what's tolerable behavior and what isn't. Just so you know, "go fv<k yourself" is not tolerated here. I've reported your comment to MTBR's mods and I hope everyone else who reads this will do likewise.

    Here's some unsolicited advice. Don't say anything on these forums that you wouldn't say to someone's face. Words are all we've got here. Those of us who care about this community will do whatever we can to ban those who act recklessly or disrespectfully with their words.
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    Good advice... I am still offended that most of you have fallen for the rebranding. Itís a moped. Bicycles do not have motors. MOPEDS are still MOPEDS.
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    I have a serious question for the e-bike proponents.

    Do you think that the various bans on e-bikes such as those from the BLM and USFS are in place due to efforts from regular mountain bikers?
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    I have a serious question for the e-bike proponents.

    Do you think that the various bans on e-bikes such as those from the BLM and USFS are in place due to efforts from regular mountain bikers?
    No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    I have a serious question for the e-bike proponents.

    Do you think that the various bans on e-bikes such as those from the BLM and USFS are in place due to efforts from regular mountain bikers?
    No.
    Had they asked me...........
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    Mopeds.
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    Iím considering renting an Ebike for the Sandy Ridge shuttle day on September 15th.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan View Post
    Iím considering renting an Ebike for the Sandy Ridge shuttle day on September 15th.
    I trust itís a singlespeed... btw, you could make extra $$ towing folks up that little paved hill.
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  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by sketchbook View Post
    If everyone wants to compare ebikes to moto...

    When's the last time you saw a moto riding a non-motorized trail? Ever seen one at Sandy?

    I personally never have. I saw a moto track once on coyote loop in Bend pretty far out which did no damage.

    There will also be a pretty significant form factor change once you have power enough to ride as fast and as far as a moto. It will look like a moto.

    They can be quieter for sure - but they will be conspicuous.
    Before Sandy was adopted by the BLM we'd encounter moto's up there all the time. Even seen tracks on QPF when it was first dug...

    I'm all for pedal assist bikes at Sandy... Anywhere you can shuttle or have shuttle days, access roads with vehicular traffic, or directional specific trails, have at it.

    Land managers parking their rigs in tall grass and brush are more likely to start fires than an ebike battery, fwiw...
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    Such an amusing thread! And classic in all the right ways: vehement resistance vs acceptance. The plain fact is that ebikes are going nowhere. The initial friction is quite natural, but a generation from now this will all seem comical. For what it's worth I hypothesize that ebike acceptance in the states will be at least partially the result of a paradigm shift lead by the "shuttle" culture aspect of the sport. No one cares about XC races anymore, and judging by the procession of shuttle points in my local hood no one cares about climbing anymore either. So it goes. Zero sleep lost here,

  106. #106
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    "No one cares about XC races anymore,"
    Add up the totals for the Chainbreaker that just took place. OBRA: Results: 2018: Oregon Off-Road Series: The Chainbreaker XC MTB
    World Cup XC racing seems to be doing just fine, as well.

    "and judging by the procession of shuttle points in my local hood no one cares about climbing anymore either."
    The ever-increasing-in-size parking lots at Sandy Ridge and Syncline are pretty packed these days.
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    Hmmmm, tell me what the hottest category in bike sales is right now. And I'm sure the pregnant parking lots in Sandy and Syncline have absolutely nothing to do with their approxmity to PDX.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cozzy View Post
    Hmmmm, tell me what the hottest category in bike sales is right now. And I'm sure the pregnant parking lots in Sandy and Syncline have absolutely nothing to do with their approxmity to PDX.
    By "hottest" do you mean selling the most units per year? I would say bikepacking/gravel grinding bikes. Proximity is irrelevant. I was just providing some evidence to refute your claim that people don't climb anymore.
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  109. #109
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    Is there a category of cycling that is not popular right now? Enduro is huge which actually requires a lot of pedalling. Gravel and bikepacking seem to get more popular every year. Iíd say XC is still alive due to Santa Cruz, Yeti and Intense releasing purebred XC bikes.
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  110. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan View Post
    Is there a category of cycling that is not popular right now?
    Courteous cycling seems to be on the decline. At least one could gather as much from the annals of mtbr.
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    You forgot Ebikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cozzy View Post
    You forgot Ebikes.
    The US overall sales of emtbs are tiny.... If you sold 5 emtbs last year, but sold 10 this year, OMG! Sales are double!! Still only 10 emtbs.

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    I could say the same thing about tech bindings and "walk mode" ski boots. Anyhow, Ebikes are gonna happen. They will be common place and we will all be peddling. Yipee!

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    Lets go back to the "Enduro is huge" comment. So this was my original point. Big travel trail bikes are driving the industry. Sure, if you race enduro peddling up is a part of the criteria. But from my perspective (which could be way off base!) it seems that there is a shuttle bias trend happening. And this trend could possibly allow for the Ebike to get a toe hold. If a peddle assist bike dropped to 35lbs I would totally buy one......save scrilla on that shuttle.

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cozzy View Post
    Lets go back to the "Enduro is huge" comment. So this was my original point. Big travel trail bikes are driving the industry. Sure, if you race enduro peddling up is a part of the criteria. But from my perspective (which could be way off base!) it seems that there is a shuttle bias trend happening. And this trend could possibly allow for the Ebike to get a toe hold. If a peddle assist bike dropped to 35lbs I would totally buy one......save scrilla on that shuttle.
    And shuttle yourself. I'm in.

    Don't always have time to ride up then down. ( because up takes me a very very long time ). Don't always have people to ride with either for a shuttle. So most of my rides are stuck to close by flatland boring stuff.

    Are ebikes still a no no if you say peddle up the road then ride down a trail? where you dont really even pedal down anyway?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cozzy View Post
    I could say the same thing about tech bindings and "walk mode" ski boots. Anyhow, Ebikes are gonna happen. They will be common place and we will all be peddling. Yipee!
    Mopeds have been around for a long time. Most likely before you were born. It's not mountain biking without climbing. Oh, as for the future, most folks cannot spell without their device. Now they have one for climbing. Too busy, huh? Too lazy and soft... much like most people these days.
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    Mountain biking has plenty of non-climbing aspects. Go ahead and ask Minaar what he thinks about going downhill....
    Last edited by Cozzy; 05-24-2018 at 10:35 PM. Reason: Manners

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    Quote Originally Posted by poppa#1 View Post
    ........Oh, as for the future, most folks cannot spell without their device. Now they have one for climbing. Too busy, huh? Too lazy and soft... much like most people these days.
    +10!!!!
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    Like I mentioned above... Minnaar! No device required. Anyone can coast. Itís a moped and it always will be. Lazy bitches.
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    Poppa, I could sit and spin in the saddle all day long. The only time I come close to falling off of my bike is after a downhill push.
    Last edited by Cozzy; 05-27-2018 at 07:22 AM. Reason: Not appropriate

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    You canít spell, but you can ride all day. Maybe Cream Puff 2019?
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    poppa, do you have a job?

    I work 6-7 days a week most weeks. a Ebike would be a lot of fun.

    ALso are you going to bitch about people that broke their neck and can hardly walk let alone ride? but an ebike makes it possible for them?
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    I work full time. I have a family, including dog and guinea pig. I mention the guinea pig because I am the only one in said family that will ďtake careĒ of his lair. I also take care of all of the laundry. The sign off is no joke! Dropping the physically challenged argument is a long discussion. I donít support shooting from the vehicle so...
    Itís not bitching. Mountain biking is hard. That is why it is special. The really awesome rides are hard as f%$#. I am no kitten anymore either. Itís harder to put the time in as life goes on, but you do what you can. Most of my time is wasted driving to the mountains.
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    I guess I don't understand why you care so much then. mountain biking is not a contest.

    Do ebikes tear the trail up and make them un-ridable or something? ( I don't know ) THere must be a reason you hate them so much other than ego.
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    Nope, ego certainly drives this keyboard pontificater. His opinion doesn't much matter. He squarely sits on the wrong side of history.....spelling words like "bitches" correctly.

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    Itís about earning it. More is never better, so if you want to descend someplace like Huffman Peak you HAVE to work for it. If everyone could access everywhere it would suck @ss. Mopeds donít do anything. When I refer to more I mean more people. Earn your turns.
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    Not quite, I ride a bike. Like I mentioned before... Cream Puff 2019, far better through down. Historical knowledge is not something that should you ďgoogleĒ, or use a device to comprehend. Spelling a riders name correctly is the right thing to do. Your opinion matters?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cozzy View Post
    I could say the same thing about tech bindings and "walk mode" ski boots. Anyhow, Ebikes are gonna happen. They will be common place and we will all be peddling. Yipee!
    No they won't. They'll be catagorized under motosports and pitched off to the atvers so you all can eat eachother. MTBers are a rare breed on trails across the country, even losing some in places and etards won't change that.

    Quit being lazy and read up some stats. Enduro style lazy climbers, such as yourself, who love ebikes are at the niche market size of fly fisherman.

    Sure it's growing, at the rate of paddleboats to a lake resort, big fricken deal. This isn't some booming smartphone craze, it's a motorbike.

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    This thread got hijacked by the classic charge of opinion and animosity that tends to orbit in forums. Hand up here. Guilty for sure.
    Anyhow, where I live mountain bikers are a buck a dozen and the sport is ingrained into the cityís identity. It is of my opinion (smells like an asshole, right) that the only things keeping peddle assist mountain bikes from our trail network is weight and time, both of which are likely to be reeled in before the grey of my beard bleeds down to my balls.

    And for what itís worth this enduro style lazy climber routinely climbs 3000 ft in his sub 30 mile rides. No animal, but certainly not lazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cozzy View Post
    This thread got hijacked by the classic charge of opinion and animosity that tends to orbit in forums. Hand up here. Guilty for sure.
    Anyhow, where I live mountain bikers are a buck a dozen and the sport is ingrained into the cityís identity. It is of my opinion (smells like an asshole, right) that the only things keeping peddle assist mountain bikes from our trail network is weight and time, both of which are likely to be reeled in before the grey of my beard bleeds down to my balls.

    And for what itís worth this enduro style lazy climber routinely climbs 3000 ft in his sub 30 mile rides. No animal, but certainly not lazy.
    Cozzy, like you I earn my turns. The Cream Puff was mentioned somewhere in this thread, for what it's worth I'm a five time finisher of that 17,000'-in-a-day event and own a 1st Place clock. I believe in climbing. I love climbing.

    The argument here isn't about that. It isn't about e-biking being mountain biking either, although this has been implied herein. E-biking isn't mountain biking. Let's all get that straight. Call it mopeding if you want. Hell, call it knitting or bowling or scootering, it doesn't matter what anyone calls it. E-biking is a different sport than mountain biking and anyone who confuses e-biking with mountain biking is clinging to the status quo. I don't blame these insecure people. They don't want to share. They like things as they are. They want to define two-wheeled trail use -- for everyone -- regardless how innocuous the new two-wheeled trail user may be. Traditional users of trails don't like new users of trails. Period. That's the crux here. Hikers didn't like mountain bikers (us) when we appeared on the scene 40 years ago and now we're the traditional trail users and we don't like the new trail user -- e-bikes. Same as it ever was.

    By the way it's pedal, not peddle. Unless you're selling something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Cozzy, like you I earn my turns. The Cream Puff was mentioned somewhere in this thread, for what it's worth I'm a five time finisher of that 17,000'-in-a-day event and own a 1st Place clock. I believe in climbing. I love climbing.

    The argument here isn't about that. It isn't about e-biking being mountain biking either, although this has been implied herein. E-biking isn't mountain biking. Let's all get that straight. Call it mopeding if you want. Hell, call it knitting or bowling or scootering, it doesn't matter what anyone calls it. E-biking is a different sport than mountain biking and anyone who confuses e-biking with mountain biking is clinging to the status quo. I don't blame these insecure people. They don't want to share. They like things as they are. They want to define two-wheeled trail use -- for everyone -- regardless how innocuous the new two-wheeled trail user may be. Traditional users of trails don't like new users of trails. Period. That's the crux here. Hikers didn't like mountain bikers (us) when we appeared on the scene 40 years ago and now we're the traditional trail users and we don't like the new trail user -- e-bikes. Same as it ever was.

    By the way it's pedal, not peddle. Unless you're selling something.
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    To play devils advocate....how do you define mountain biking?

    I earn my turns and do a lot of climbing. I'll spend 4 hours at Sandy and climb and descend top to bottom 3 times, to me that is MTBing. Or going out to WRT or Gales and putting in a hard 3 hr ride.

    But, I don't see how an an E-bike isn't mountain biking while shuttling at Sandy (with 0 climbing involved) being well within the mountain biking framework...or any shuttle/lift assist for that matter. You are just descending, you are in the same position on the bike, working with same basic design, same brakes, etc.

    Now I don't want E-bikes on the trails....and I am a big advocate for dirtbikes, which I ride as often as I can. But I struggle with why I feel this way. For me it I guess it comes down to really 'earning' the trails and keeping the hard, difficult and pristine trails away from the average Joe that doesn't want to put in the time - I feel a bit guilty saying that, but it's true.

    I think Ebikes work great in some places, not in others. Whistler sure. Oakridge, maybe. WRT - no. Slippery slope though, give an inch and you give it all up. In my mind it really has to be yes or no. I'm in the no camp since the lines to be drawn are very fuzzy....20 years from now when you have a 2 lb battery and 35 hp electric motor, you'll have a 40 lb motorcycle. Seems like the easiest solution is define it as powered or not. Lots of moto trails out there to ride an E-bike on....

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    ^"E-bikes" change the dynamic of what mountain biking has traditionally been. Anybody that can't understand this is deluting themselves. Personally I love what currently defines mountain biking. The last time I rode Post Canyon I counted 6 people on E-Bikes riding trails clearly marked non-motorized. I'm not sure on the legality of this and it's not my point. One guy had a drone following him around. Other times 2 guys were coming up a trail at a fairly high rate of speed on what is traditionally ridden down and marked directional. I realize post is the proverbial shit show and doesn't represent a backcountry experience. However, I like to ride there spring & fall when the dirt is good. From zero E-bike experiences to 6 next time out...the dynamic is changing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    ^"E-bikes" change the dynamic of what mountain biking has traditionally been. Anybody that can't understand this is deluting themselves. Personally I love what currently defines mountain biking. The last time I rode Post Canyon I counted 6 people on E-Bikes riding trails clearly marked non-motorized. I'm not sure on the legality of this and it's not my point. One guy had a drone following him around. Other times 2 guys were coming up a trail at a fairly high rate of speed on what is traditionally ridden down and marked directional. I realize post is the proverbial shit show and doesn't represent a backcountry experience. However, I like to ride there spring & fall when the dirt is good. From zero E-bike experiences to 6 next time out...the dynamic is changing.
    What currently defines mountain biking? Is shuttling at Sandy Ridge "mountain biking" because its sure as **** is more detrimental to the environment, requires less effort and is more intrusive than a bunch of dudes on E-bikes shuttling themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArizRider View Post
    Is shuttling at Sandy Ridge "mountain biking" because its sure as **** is more detrimental to the environment, requires less effort and is more intrusive than a bunch of dudes on E-bikes shuttling themselves.
    I agree.

    I'm not going to try to define mountain biking per say other than it doesn't involve a motor, period. My point is that I foresee E-bikes changing the dynamic in a significant way.


    * I will put out a hypothetical though, as I see it as plausible. One E-bike battery fire that burns into the water shed at Sandy or The Dalles water shed on Hood, or burns up timber at Post etc, and there will be no more mountain biking regardless of how one defines it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Cozzy, like you I earn my turns. The Cream Puff was mentioned somewhere in this thread, for what it's worth I'm a five time finisher of that 17,000'-in-a-day event and own a 1st Place clock. I believe in climbing. I love climbing.

    The argument here isn't about that. It isn't about e-biking being mountain biking either, although this has been implied herein. E-biking isn't mountain biking. Let's all get that straight. Call it mopeding if you want. Hell, call it knitting or bowling or scootering, it doesn't matter what anyone calls it. E-biking is a different sport than mountain biking and anyone who confuses e-biking with mountain biking is clinging to the status quo. I don't blame these insecure people. They don't want to share. They like things as they are. They want to define two-wheeled trail use -- for everyone -- regardless how innocuous the new two-wheeled trail user may be. Traditional users of trails don't like new users of trails. Period. That's the crux here. Hikers didn't like mountain bikers (us) when we appeared on the scene 40 years ago and now we're the traditional trail users and we don't like the new trail user -- e-bikes. Same as it ever was.

    By the way it's pedal, not peddle. Unless you're selling something.
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    Ha! ďPedalĒ vs. ďPeddleĒ. And here I thought Poppa was just being a dick......turns out he was making an appropriate dig. I suppose I should fine tooth comb things before I release forum posts.....got hecklers of minutiae up in here!

    Anyhow, about that Cream Puff: psycho and impressive. Iím curious, what bike did you pedal that thing with? Nice work on the first place finish.

    A pedal assisted (not throttled) mountain bike is a legitimate mountain bike, itís just not a mountain bike for you.....or me yet.
    Last edited by Cozzy; 06-05-2018 at 09:19 AM. Reason: Must be a polished text for the thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    I agree.

    I'm not going to try to define mountain biking per say other than it doesn't involve a motor, period. My point is that I foresee E-bikes changing the dynamic in a significant way.


    * I will put out a hypothetical though, as I see it as plausible. One E-bike battery fire that burns into the water shed at Sandy or The Dalles water shed on Hood, or burns up timber at Post etc, and there will be no more mountain biking regardless of how one defines it.
    What about electric / wireless shifters, wireless seatposts, garmins and cell phones?

    An easy way to limit E-mtbs is to require fire-extinguishers on each rider. Although with that said, I think gas dirtbikes are 10x as dangerous and they never seem to catch anything on fire, it happens, but I've never personally seen or heard about it locally.

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    I think it reasonable that lithion Ion batteries in larger capacities and under larger discharge loads represent a bigger potential for things to go sideways. Dirt bikes, chainsaws etc. aren't allowed on trail during fire bans (to my knowledge).
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    "E-bikes" change the dynamic of what mountain biking has traditionally been.
    Only to those who don't consider e-biking a different sport than mountain biking. Which it is -- a different sport. Human muscle is the only source of power in mountain biking. Any two-wheeled contraption that includes electrical or gasoline power isn't mountain biking, it's something else. Once we accept that e-biking is not mountain biking, we're in a better position to understand that we're talking about a new trail user here. This frees each of us up to perceive and understand our true motivations, fears, biases and attitude toward this new trail user.

    Now we can get to the real crux of the e-bike issue, which is sharing trails. Or not sharing trails. In any case we don't have to worry about "preserving" the sport of mountain biking. No one is threatening to take mountain biking away from anyone. If pedal-assist bikes wreaked havoc on trails, then we could concern ourselves with environmental or resource damage, but pedal-assist bikes don't damage resources any more than mountain bikes do. Pedal-assist bikes are not motorcycles. They lack a throttle. Anyone who's ever ridden an e-bike understands this. Those who haven't ridden one may not understand and therefore may have fears fueled by their lack of understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    Anybody that can't understand this is deluting themselves.
    Sounds like a cross between deluding and diluting but I believe you mean the former. Based on what I said previously, no one who accepts the notion that e-bikes aren't mountain bikes is being deluded. While an e-bike may appear to be closer to a mountain bike than it is to a motorcycle, it's still not a mountain bike because it has an extraneous power source. This one difference is so significant that it makes the e-bike completely different than the mountain bike. E-bikes may be able to masquerade as mountain bikes because they are silent and manufacturers style them to look as much like mountain bikes as possible, but no one need be fooled. E-biking is a different sport. Let's weigh this new sport on its own merit and make trail access decisions based strictly on the attributes and characteristics of e-biking itself, exclusive of any other sport (including mountain biking or motorcycling).

    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    Personally I love what currently defines mountain biking.
    I do too. No motor besides my own legs. To me it's the perfect sport.

    That said, mountain biking may not be for everyone. I don't want to tell everyone who loves trails and the outdoors what they should or shouldn't do or enjoy.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArizRider View Post
    What currently defines mountain biking? Is shuttling at Sandy Ridge "mountain biking" because its sure as **** is more detrimental to the environment, requires less effort and is more intrusive than a bunch of dudes on E-bikes shuttling themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    I agree.

    I'm not going to try to define mountain biking per say other than it doesn't involve a motor, period. My point is that I foresee E-bikes changing the dynamic in a significant way.
    I hope e-biking doesn't change the dynamic of mountain biking in a significant way. It doesn't have to. One way to help make sure this doesn't happen is for mountain bikers to perceive e-bikes for what they are and to stop thinking of e-bikes as mountain bikes. Mountain bikes don't have motors. Once we help the rest of the world understand that e-biking is a sport unto itself, not part of our sport, then we're no longer invested in the foibles and access issues that surround e-bikes.

    Then we're free to decide where we choose to stand on sharing trails with a new trail user. Just the same as if we were considering sharing trails with say, electric powered off-road skateboards. Let's stop including e-bikes in "us." Of all people, mountain bikers should be the last to be fooled by the fact that the e-bike is an extraneously powered mechanical chameleon impersonating a mountain bike.
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    Sparticus, nice post.

    Yea I guess your right they are not mountain bikes. Personally I don't care - they are not hurting anything. I think most trails should allow them. I'm fine with it.

    Some trails right by my house are hike, bike and horse. The horse do the most damage but I'm fine with them too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Only to those who don't consider e-biking a different sport than mountain biking. Which it is -- a different sport. Human muscle is the only source of power in mountain biking. Any two-wheeled contraption that includes electrical or gasoline power isn't mountain biking, it's something else. Once we accept that e-biking is not mountain biking, we're in a better position to understand that we're talking about a new trail user here. This frees each of us up to perceive and understand our true motivations, fears, biases and attitude toward this new trail user.

    Now we can get to the real crux of the e-bike issue, which is sharing trails. Or not sharing trails. In any case we don't have to worry about "preserving" the sport of mountain biking. No one is threatening to take mountain biking away from anyone. If pedal-assist bikes wreaked havoc on trails, then we could concern ourselves with environmental or resource damage, but pedal-assist bikes don't damage resources any more than mountain bikes do. Pedal-assist bikes are not motorcycles. They lack a throttle. Anyone who's ever ridden an e-bike understands this. Those who haven't ridden one may not understand and therefore may have fears fueled by their lack of understanding.


    Sounds like a cross between deluding and diluting but I believe you mean the former. Based on what I said previously, no one who accepts the notion that e-bikes aren't mountain bikes is being deluded. While an e-bike may appear to be closer to a mountain bike than it is to a motorcycle, it's still not a mountain bike because it has an extraneous power source. This one difference is so significant that it makes the e-bike completely different than the mountain bike. E-bikes may be able to masquerade as mountain bikes because they are silent and manufacturers style them to look as much like mountain bikes as possible, but no one need be fooled. E-biking is a different sport. Let's weigh this new sport on its own merit and make trail access decisions based strictly on the attributes and characteristics of e-biking itself, exclusive of any other sport (including mountain biking or motorcycling).


    I do too. No motor besides my own legs. To me it's the perfect sport.

    That said, mountain biking may not be for everyone. I don't want to tell everyone who loves trails and the outdoors what they should or shouldn't do or enjoy.




    I hope e-biking doesn't change the dynamic of mountain biking in a significant way. It doesn't have to. One way to help make sure this doesn't happen is for mountain bikers to perceive e-bikes for what they are and to stop thinking of e-bikes as mountain bikes. Mountain bikes don't have motors. Once we help the rest of the world understand that e-biking is a sport unto itself, not part of our sport, then we're no longer invested in the foibles and access issues that surround e-bikes.

    Then we're free to decide where we choose to stand on sharing trails with a new trail user. Just the same as if we were considering sharing trails with say, electric powered off-road skateboards. Let's stop including e-bikes in "us." Of all people, mountain bikers should be the last to be fooled by the fact that the e-bike is an extraneously powered mechanical chameleon impersonating a mountain bike.
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    I don't disagree with what you are saying in general, but again, who said MTBing has to be human powered? Is there a definition? I think you are on the right path to managing this issue by not allowing them to be in the same class, but think it's a bit shortsighted to say it's a "different sport"....I'm sure the Ebike manuf would disagree....

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArizRider View Post
    who said MTBing has to be human powered? Is there a definition?
    Society (ie: the larger community) decides what mountain biking is, just as society differentiates right from wrong. In the case of defining the sport of mountain biking, mountain bikers should be the community that defines itself if we're able to do so. I believe no one is in a better position to take hold of these reins than mountain bikers themselves. Who else knows as much about our beloved sport? We should define our sport. Our sport is human powered, period.

    This doesn't mean that off-road motorcycling or e-biking are bad. I don't believe they are. But they're different sports than mountain biking because they're extraneously powered. The mountain bike is human powered.

    I recall the early days when hikers tried to lump mountain bikes in with off-road motorcycles as far as trail access. And the off-road motorcycling community was losing access because that sport suffers a significant percentage that do indeed cause resource damage (sadly). They wanted mountain bikers to join their ranks in order to increase the number of trail users fighting to keep singletrack open to wheeled users. Thankfully the sport of mountain biking grew enough on its own that we did not need to align ourselves with the motorized crowd. (For the record, I own a dirt bike and ride it responsibly.)

    I say let e-bikers do likewise. Prove themselves on their own merit just as mountain bikers did.

    I'm not saying e-bikes are bad. I don't believe they are. Truth is I want one. Not right now, but someday, maybe someday soon. I'm 64 years old and grateful that I still have the muscle to hang with my riding buds for the epics, but the day will come when I want an e-bike, as sure as the sun rises each morning. On that day, I'll want access. In order to earn that access, I hope e-bikers turn out to be a responsible lot. Time will tell. Meanwhile I say let them find their own way. Personally, unless or until the e-bike community proves itself unworthy, e-bikers have my support. I'm saying this as a potential / eventual e-biker, not because I consider e-bikes members of the mountain bike community.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArizRider View Post
    I think you are on the right path to managing this issue by not allowing them to be in the same class, but think it's a bit shortsighted to say it's a "different sport"....I'm sure the Ebike manuf would disagree....
    I agree about e-bike manufacturers disagreeing with my stance. What better way to slip into the club but on the coattails of existing members? Manufacturers will continue to say that e-bikes are an evolution of the mountain bike because this argument will be good for sales and they only care about one thing -- sales. I hope my argument is more objective. Personally I think it's important for mountain bikers to make the distinction. Again, without labeling e-bikes as good or bad but rather drawing a line that clearly defines the mountain bike as a human powered machine. This is what the definition has always been. Why would it change now?

    I'm personally not confused about the different sport thing and my clarity on this issue is 100% due to the e-bike's extraneous power. The issue is crystal clear to me and the more mountain bikers that share this clarity, the more secure we'll be with the future of the sport of mountain biking. Plus the easier we'll find it to accept or reject this new trail user based strictly on its own merit. I believe mountain bikers who currently oppose e-bikes may find the e-bike easier to accept once these skeptical mountain bikers embrace the concept that e-bikes aren't mountain bikes and therefore they aren't a threat to mountain bikers. The e-bike should be a threat only to itself. We need to help all trail users, particularly those in land management, to understand the clear line that differentiates mountain bikes from e-bikes.

    Hopefully we'll do so without judgement in the interim, just the way mountain bikers wished the existing trail user community would have (should have) viewed us back in the '80s when our sport was seeking access to trails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Only to those who don't consider e-biking a different sport than mountain biking. Which it is -- a different sport. Human muscle is the only source of power in mountain biking. Any two-wheeled contraption that includes electrical or gasoline power isn't mountain biking, it's something else. Once we accept that e-biking is not mountain biking, we're in a better position to understand that we're talking about a new trail user here. This frees each of us up to perceive and understand our true motivations, fears, biases and attitude toward this new trail user.

    Now we can get to the real crux of the e-bike issue, which is sharing trails. Or not sharing trails. In any case we don't have to worry about "preserving" the sport of mountain biking. No one is threatening to take mountain biking away from anyone. If pedal-assist bikes wreaked havoc on trails, then we could concern ourselves with environmental or resource damage, but pedal-assist bikes don't damage resources any more than mountain bikes do. Pedal-assist bikes are not motorcycles. They lack a throttle. Anyone who's ever ridden an e-bike understands this. Those who haven't ridden one may not understand and therefore may have fears fueled by their lack of understanding.


    Sounds like a cross between deluding and diluting but I believe you mean the former. Based on what I said previously, no one who accepts the notion that e-bikes aren't mountain bikes is being deluded. While an e-bike may appear to be closer to a mountain bike than it is to a motorcycle, it's still not a mountain bike because it has an extraneous power source. This one difference is so significant that it makes the e-bike completely different than the mountain bike. E-bikes may be able to masquerade as mountain bikes because they are silent and manufacturers style them to look as much like mountain bikes as possible, but no one need be fooled. E-biking is a different sport. Let's weigh this new sport on its own merit and make trail access decisions based strictly on the attributes and characteristics of e-biking itself, exclusive of any other sport (including mountain biking or motorcycling).


    I do too. No motor besides my own legs. To me it's the perfect sport.

    That said, mountain biking may not be for everyone. I don't want to tell everyone who loves trails and the outdoors what they should or shouldn't do or enjoy.




    I hope e-biking doesn't change the dynamic of mountain biking in a significant way. It doesn't have to. One way to help make sure this doesn't happen is for mountain bikers to perceive e-bikes for what they are and to stop thinking of e-bikes as mountain bikes. Mountain bikes don't have motors. Once we help the rest of the world understand that e-biking is a sport unto itself, not part of our sport, then we're no longer invested in the foibles and access issues that surround e-bikes.

    Then we're free to decide where we choose to stand on sharing trails with a new trail user. Just the same as if we were considering sharing trails with say, electric powered off-road skateboards. Let's stop including e-bikes in "us." Of all people, mountain bikers should be the last to be fooled by the fact that the e-bike is an extraneously powered mechanical chameleon impersonating a mountain bike.
    =sParty
    Great post sparty. One of the problems I see is that MTB orgs seem to think they need to consider ebikers as part of their constituency, rather than a new and distinctly different user group - and for that matter, ebikers seem to think there is no distinction between a human powered bike and their motorized machines and that existing MTB groups should fully embrace them and lobby for them. I'd like to see ebikes do their own advocacy and traditional groups clarify that mountain bikes are nonmotorized. The Angry Singlespeeder coined the term MORB, for motorized off road bicycle, which fits pretty well IMO.
    If it's not powered solely by you, it's motorized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ACree View Post
    One of the problems I see is that MTB orgs seem to think they need to consider ebikers as part of their constituency, rather than a new and distinctly different user group
    In the US, the only one I've seen that is inclusive to emtbs is IMBA, I haven't seen a position statement that doesn't consider emtbs to be a different vehicle from any other mtb trail org. Most are along the lines of "Have at it fellas, you're on your own."

  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    In the US, the only one I've seen that is inclusive to emtbs is IMBA, I haven't seen a position statement that doesn't consider emtbs to be a different vehicle from any other mtb trail org. Most are along the lines of "Have at it fellas, you're on your own."
    Evergreen, for instance, despite being involved in the WA ebike bill, has been decidedly undismissive of ebikes IMO. For example, I've seen questions from ebikers to the ED, and instead of saying 'form your own group, we are human powered', it's 'call me and lets talk about how you can work on getting access'.
    If it's not powered solely by you, it's motorized.

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  145. #145
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    Seeing as how you are talking about trail access in the OR at what point did the uphill right of way rule change? Was it the advent of you tube, Strava or just plain full suspension? Directional trails aside of course. Maybe it's just me, and I don't ride populated trails much, but whenever I have the past few years at least one yahoo is definitely not going to give way and the other night it was a whole posse of them. I don't mind riding with caution and can handle myself in that situation just fine now that I know what to expect. Just curious.

    Oh and as far as e bikes at Sandy Ridge I don't have much to say about that as I have never ridden there. I live on the west side of town and never seem to get over that way unless on the way up and over.

    That said I do ride an e mtb these days and it is working well for me. I ride bikes for fun and any increase in that sector and I'm on it. Do I get as much fitness out of the deal as I did for over 35 yrs. on my mtb? Actually at my age I am getting just the right amount of fitness out of it as that aspect is totally under my control. I can raise/lower my heart rate at any time by using a harder gear, I stay in my lowest setting all the time so I can't reduce that, just like I have always done. This has translated over into my analog biking now in that I know better than I ever have where my threshold is and how to hover right in front of it. The fact that it climbs like a goat is just icing on the cake.

    It would be less hassle and more fun to build a park that is e bikes only than fighting city hall and the keyboard warriors who I predict will eventually come around anyway as will the greater population of mtb'rs in general. Manufacturer backed trends tend to stick more often than not in the bike industry and this is just another.
    A bike by any other name is still a bike.

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    You cannot ride ebikes at Sandy Ridge. They are not allowed on any non motorized trails in areas managed by the USFS or the BLM. Sandy Ridge is BLM. https://the-journal.com/articles/90242

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessicaberty View Post
    You cannot ride ebikes at Sandy Ridge. They are not allowed on any non motorized trails in areas managed by the USFS or the BLM. Sandy Ridge is BLM. https://the-journal.com/articles/90242
    For now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cozzy View Post
    For now.
    So lobby to get it changed, but don't break the rules... One bad apple can spoil the bunch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yamaha267 View Post
    Who cares. It is not a motorcycle. It is a pedal assist bike. People need to get over this, even though it might crush their ego and go against their extreme liberal views.
    1) It is a motorcycle, a pedal assist motorcycle.
    2) The issue is bigger than "liberal" vs. asshat, it's a matter of making sure that mountain bikers are able to maintain access to the areas we enjoy riding before we get limited to moto-access trails.
    3) Don't be such a tribalist, it's unbecoming.

  150. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteNW View Post
    1) It is a motorcycle, a pedal assist motorcycle.
    Let's be fair. They're all different.
    Mountain bikes are human powered.
    Motorcycles have throttles.
    E-bikes are pedal assist.
    Once we can all look at this subject objectively without injecting emotion into it, there's a chance -- albeit slim -- that we all might be able to discuss the matter calmly, possibly even agree about the best way to go forward.

    At this point I feel the need to say something about the sigs / tag lines I've been seeing ever more frequently on MRBR users' posts. These sigs say things like, "E-bikes aren't mountain bikes" and "Mountain bikes don't have motors."

    It's 100% absolutely true.

    The thing that makes me chuckle as I read these statements is that nobody else gives a hoot. All the mountain bikers on the planet (I'm one) who refuse to believe that e-bikes are mountain bikes (I'm one) won't stem the e-bike tide. Like hikers who did their best to stare mountain bikers off the trails during the previous century, today's e-bike haters will simply stand by with their jaws clenched, their chins in the air, their arms crossed and their heels dug firmly into the sand while a wave of e-bikes washes past them without even noticing the ironfisted haters.

    Just like mountain bikers did to disgruntled hikers a few decades ago.

    Remember? I do. I was a young man in 1990.

    Before you hate on me for saying so, remember this. I agree that e-bikes aren't mountain bikes. The point is, defining the e-bike is beside the point. E-bikes are coming. No, they're already here. And the wave hasn't nearly crested yet. The point isn't whether they're a bicycle or a motorcycle -- they're neither. The point is they're e-bikes and all the "you'll never win me over!" attitudes in the world won't change the fact that they're here and their use will continue to grow.

    It's not about what they're called. It's about acceptance. It's about the horror of accommodating a {gasp!} new trail user. Never!!!

    I don't ride my dirt bike on trails that aren't open to motorized use. And when I get an e-bike I won't ride it on trails that aren't open to e-bikes. But will I get an e-bike? Hell yes I'll get one. Just a matter of time. Pedal-assist bikes do no more damage to trails than mountain bikes do. I'm getting older. Yeah, I'll get one. You really think you won't?

    Want to hate on one of the most destructive trail users on the planet? Look to equestrians. Why aren't all the anti e-bike people leveling their emotional weapons at equestrians? There's just one reason : equestrians are an established trail user. E-bikes are new. So the haters think they can hate e-bikes out of existence.

    Nope.

    Time to make peace. Digging heels and proclaiming e-bikes aren't mountain bikes will accomplish nothing. That point has already been conceded. They're not mountain bikes. We all agree. What else ya got?
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  151. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Let's be fair. They're all different.
    Mountain bikes are human powered.
    Motorcycles have throttles.
    E-bikes are pedal assist.
    Once we can all look at this subject objectively without injecting emotion into it, there's a chance -- albeit slim -- that we all might be able to discuss the matter calmly, possibly even agree about the best way to go forward.

    At this point I feel the need to say something about the sigs / tag lines I've been seeing ever more frequently on MRBR users' posts. These sigs say things like, "E-bikes aren't mountain bikes" and "Mountain bikes don't have motors."

    It's 100% absolutely true.

    The thing that makes me chuckle as I read these statements is that nobody else gives a hoot. All the mountain bikers on the planet (I'm one) who refuse to believe that e-bikes are mountain bikes (I'm one) won't stem the e-bike tide. Like hikers who did their best to stare mountain bikers off the trails during the previous century, today's e-bike haters will simply stand by with their jaws clenched, their chins in the air, their arms crossed and their heels dug firmly into the sand while a wave of e-bikes washes past them without even noticing the ironfisted haters.

    Just like mountain bikers did to disgruntled hikers a few decades ago.

    Remember? I do. I was a young man in 1990.

    Before you hate on me for saying so, remember this. I agree that e-bikes aren't mountain bikes. The point is, defining the e-bike is beside the point. E-bikes are coming. No, they're already here. And the wave hasn't nearly crested yet. The point isn't whether they're a bicycle or a motorcycle -- they're neither. The point is they're e-bikes and all the "you'll never win me over!" attitudes in the world won't change the fact that they're here and their use will continue to grow.

    It's not about what they're called. It's about acceptance. It's about the horror of accommodating a {gasp!} new trail user. Never!!!

    I don't ride my dirt bike on trails that aren't open to motorized use. And when I get an e-bike I won't ride it on trails that aren't open to e-bikes. But will I get an e-bike? Hell yes I'll get one. Just a matter of time. Pedal-assist bikes do no more damage to trails than mountain bikes do. I'm getting older. Yeah, I'll get one. You really think you won't?

    Want to hate on one of the most destructive trail users on the planet? Look to equestrians. Why aren't all the anti e-bike people leveling their emotional weapons at equestrians? There's just one reason : equestrians are an established trail user. E-bikes are new. So the haters think they can hate e-bikes out of existence.

    Nope.

    Time to make peace. Digging heels and proclaiming e-bikes aren't mountain bikes will accomplish nothing. That point has already been conceded. They're not mountain bikes. We all agree. What else ya got?
    =sParty
    Actually Sparty, I firmly believe that ebike hate is rooted in ebikers insistence that they are 'mountain bikes' and thus should be allowed wherever MTB use is legal. Where I see them, as you describe, as a separate and distinct user group (that may not be a motorcycle but is certainly not nonmotorized).
    If it's not powered solely by you, it's motorized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ACree View Post
    Actually Sparty, I firmly believe that ebike hate is rooted in ebikers insistence that they are 'mountain bikes' and thus should be allowed wherever MTB use is legal. Where I see them, as you describe, as a separate and distinct user group (that may not be a motorcycle but is certainly not nonmotorized).
    Good point and I can see why mountain bikers would say, "don't stand so close to me" to e-bikers.

    I guess the e-bikers feel like they should be able to masquerade as mountain bikers since their feet go round & round as they move up the trail.

    Maybe you've nailed the fundamental issue, ACree -- one group says "we're the same" while the other group says, "no, we're not."

    The two groups aren't the same. No question. One is strictly human powered. The other is assisted by a motor.

    I wouldn't want an e-biker to point to the results of an uphill race and say, "I was fastest!" And I'm not going to lie, if I'm climbing a challenging trail on my mountain bike, cleaning it under my own power and enjoying an inspired climb while the effort is taking everything I've got, I'm not sure how I'll feel when an old, out of shape e-bike rider pulls up behind me and says, "on your left."

    Though I might be that e-biker someday.

    Meanwhile environmental impact is similar between both two-wheeled user groups.

    So, with regard to trail access, where do we go from here?
    Can these two distinct but visually similar user groups make peace even as one masquerades as the other?
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  153. #153
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    Sparty kind of nails how I feel about eBikes; namely I'm not crazy about them on trails, and fear that they open a Pandora's Box of trail access issues, but I also appreciate them for other uses (commuting etc,) and I also recognize that technology is going to march forward, whether I like it or not, and within ~5-6 years it will be hard to visually distinguish an eMTB from a standard full-suss bike. ...and when I'm 80-90 yrs old, I'll likely really love them!

    So IMO, it comes down to reasonable trail guidelines and regulations, which local trail access groups likely having to shoulder a lot of the burden. But maybe I'm wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    The two groups aren't the same. No question. One is strictly human powered. The other is assisted by a motor.

    I wouldn't want an e-biker to point to the results of an uphill race and say, "I was fastest!" And I'm not going to lie, if I'm climbing a challenging trail on my mountain bike, cleaning it under my own power and enjoying an inspired climb while the effort is taking everything I've got, I'm not sure how I'll feel when an old, out of shape e-bike rider pulls up behind me and says, "on your left."

    Though I might be that e-biker someday.
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  154. #154
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    I wonder which of these situations would be worse...

    To encounter a Siera Club member on the trail while riding a Mt bike?

    Or

    To encounter a Mt biker on the trail while riding an E-Bike?

  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan View Post
    I wonder which of these situations would be worse...

    To encounter a Siera Club member on the trail while riding a Mt bike?

    Or

    To encounter a Mt biker on the trail while riding an E-Bike?
    Or to be enjoying a hike and have an e-bike come flying up a trail behind you at downhill speed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Or to be enjoying a hike and have an e-bike come flying up a trail behind you at downhill speed?
    Sharing is hard.
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  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Or to be enjoying a hike and have an e-bike come flying up a trail behind you at downhill speed?
    Are you implying that only e-bikers get themselves into this situation?

    I have experienced this as a hiker and as a biker flying up on hikers.
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  158. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan View Post
    I wonder which of these situations would be worse...

    To encounter a Siera Club member on the trail while riding a Mt bike?

    Or

    To encounter a Mt biker on the trail while riding an E-Bike?
    Depends. Is the trail designated for nonmotorized use?
    If it's not powered solely by you, it's motorized.

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  159. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACree View Post
    Depends. Is the trail designated for nonmotorized use?
    In this hypothetical scenario, the trail is the Alpine Trail near Oakridge, Oregon.
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan View Post
    In this hypothetical scenario, the trail is the Alpine Trail near Oakridge, Oregon.
    ...which is open to motorcycles.
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  161. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by benja55 View Post
    So IMO, it comes down to reasonable trail guidelines and regulations, which local trail access groups likely having to shoulder a lot of the burden. But maybe I'm wrong?
    I don't think you're wrong. Like you, I think I'm not an e-bike proponent, but not a total hater either, but I think a lot of the problem comes from e-bikers not being willing admit or be open to the fact that e-bikes do present some fundamental questions about trail access, and therefore the floodgates shouldn't just be opened up to allow access anywhere and everywhere. The other part of the problem comes from some in the traditional mtb camp not being willing to concede that there are some places (like Sandy Ridge) with purpose built directional downhill mtb trails and paved road climbs where e-bike use doesn't present much if any risk to trail access, other users, or increased trail damage (note: I didn't say that I am for e-bikes riding Sandy Ridge if the rules say no).

    It seems to me that the pro-e-bike camp (not talking about Sparty) is putting a lot of their effort (at least on these forums) into claiming that they are not a new user group, that they in fact are just mountain bikes, even arguing their bikes don't have motors.

    And when someone doesn't agree with them, or when it is pointed out that certain trails have restrictions on e-bike use, the response immediately goes to "e-bikes are coming, there is nothing anyone can do to stop them, and we'll just poach trails closed to e-bikes because we don't agree with the rules."

    So, when the local trail access group of mountain bikers has to shoulder the burden of dealing with the access issues, and e-bikers aren't stepping up to have a seat at the table, why should they expect anyone to lobby for their position?

    As I said, I'm not an e-bike hater, but I would be a lot more pro-ebike if I saw three things happening:
    1. E bike manufacturer's supporting efforts for e-bike access. If anyone can post any evidence of this happening, I'd be interested to read about it.
    2. Local bike shops selling e-bikes giving prospective buyers accurate info about where they can legally be ridden. I keep seeing e-bikes for sale at the LBS (and some out on the trails), but I don't know of any singletrack in our area (Corvallis) that is legally open to e-bikes. USFS and BLM have national policy memo on ebikes on non-motorized trails, Oregon State University Research Forest says no e-bikes, and the main private timber land owner who allows mtb use on trails followed suit and said no to e-bikes. I'm not sure about Blackrock. They have signs posting "Non-Motorized Use Only" or something to that effect, but I have seen e-bikes there (which I have no problem with).

    3. E-bikers getting organized to lobby for access. I don't see this happening as a stand alone effort, unless the e-bike manufacturer's step up to fund it. What I think what will happen, and I'm seeing it already, is that as e-bikes become more commonplace, more and trail builders and trail access advocates will convert over to e-bikes and will start advocating through current mtb trail access organizations. I think that's going to be an interesting progression with some heated debates, with the potential of causing some people to walk away from those groups (from both camps).
    No dig no whine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post

    And I'm not going to lie, if I'm climbing a challenging trail on my mountain bike, cleaning it under my own power and enjoying an inspired climb while the effort is taking everything I've got, I'm not sure how I'll feel when an old, out of shape e-bike rider pulls up behind me and says, "on your left."
    Bingo! I believe this is the reason why many mountain bikers don't like ebikes. It's an ego issue. Nothing anyone can do about your feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Or to be enjoying a hike and have an e-bike come flying up a trail behind you at downhill speed?
    Probably feels the same as hiking downhill and having a regular mountain biker come pass you at downhill speeds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by howardv View Post
    Bingo! I believe this is the reason why many mountain bikers don't like ebikes. It's an ego issue. Nothing anyone can do about your feelings.



    .
    I fail to see how that relates to ego possibly other than your own. Go ride areas with a lot of moto's or as of late , areas with a lot of ebikes on your mountain bike and see if that doesn't detract from your riding experience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by howardv View Post
    Bingo! I believe this is the reason why many mountain bikers don't like ebikes. It's an ego issue. Nothing anyone can do about your feelings.
    Not sure why it would be an ego issue. You pass me on a climb with an E-bike, it pretty much is irrelevant since it has a motor.

    In Sparty's example, of tearing your guts out to clean a steep technical climb and having an E-bike come up behind you, I don't think I'd have a problem with that as long as the one doing the passing is patient and polite and willing to wait for a reasonable opportunity for me to let them pass.

    Now, if someone buzzed up behind me and was a Richard about it and demanded I dive off the trail to let them by immediately, yeah, that would be a problem.

    But, that is playing the "what if" game, and that scenario is no different than two riders under their own power with vastly different levels of fitness.
    No dig no whine

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    "For purposes of motor vehicle safety standards issued and enforced pursuant to chapter 301 of title 49, United States Code, a low-speed electric bicycle (as defined in section 38(b) of the Consumer Product Safety Act) shall not be considered a motor vehicle as defined by section 30102(6) of title 49, United States Code."

    "(d) This section shall supersede any State law or requirement with respect to low-speed electric bicycles to the extent that such State law or requirement is more stringent than the Federal law"

    Public Law 107-319, 116 Stat. 2776

    107TH CONGRESS H.R.727

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    "For purposes of motor vehicle safety standards issued and enforced pursuant to chapter 301 of title 49, United States Code, a low-speed electric bicycle (as defined in section 38(b) of the Consumer Product Safety Act) shall not be considered a motor vehicle as defined by section 30102(6) of title 49, United States Code."

    "(d) This section shall supersede any State law or requirement with respect to low-speed electric bicycles to the extent that such State law or requirement is more stringent than the Federal law"

    Public Law 107-319, 116 Stat. 2776

    107TH CONGRESS H.R.727
    How does this apply to the question of allowing e-bikes on non-motorized trails???
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    How does this apply to the question of allowing e-bikes on non-motorized trails???
    "For the purposes of motor vehicle safety standards..." So....I guess an e-bike doesn't need a seat belt and air bags?
    No dig no whine

  168. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Can you explain how that works? Have some data you can cite?
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    It's not an adventure until someone BLEEDS!

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    When I think of Ebikes I think of piles of beer cans left at the trail head like I have seen at some of the Moto staging areas.

    Some argue that the more people the better, I don't buy that. The more people, the more people that will cause issues and closures.

  171. #171
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    I didn't see anything that supported the idea that adding e-bikes would equate to more trails or access.



    Quote Originally Posted by crager34 View Post
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  172. #172
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    Ya, there were a few people that brought it up in this thread and I just don't think it is a valid argument.

  173. #173
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    Who gives a **** ppl can ride whatever they choose too..


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  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bassballer150 View Post
    Who gives a **** ppl can ride whatever they choose too..


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    I'll see you up there on my KTM.

    What about an E-moto?

    E-moto with limited power?

    E-moto with pedal assist?

    E-moto with 2000W with no pedal assist?

    E-bike with 2000W?

    Where do we draw the line?

  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by RadBartTaylor View Post

    Where do we draw the line?
    Very simple, when it has a motor.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

  176. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    Very simple, when it has a motor.


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  177. #177
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    Yup - exactly....

    Although, I was doing some trail work up in Gifford Pinchot and we had some pretty horrendous slogs on the "pedal" bikes because E-bikes were not allowed, even for trail work.....but it is worth the hardship.

  178. #178
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    Thanks! 👍
    Master of Laundry...Lord of Cleaning!

  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by RadBartTaylor View Post
    Yup - exactly....

    Although, I was doing some trail work up in Gifford Pinchot and we had some pretty horrendous slogs on the "pedal" bikes because E-bikes were not allowed, even for trail work.....but it is worth the hardship.
    Believe me, point taken. I think it unfortunate we conflate common sense use with all the rest of it. Unlikely anybody would frown upon utility ebikes for tough backcountry trail work. But, as your post #174 illustrates it opens the door for the me too'ers. Thanks to everybody that came out for SHIFT! Your work is appreciated more than most would ever realize, thank you.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

  180. #180
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    I got a friend that weighs over 300 pounds and this guy rides hard too. I can't imagine a normal sized guy on an e-bike does a whole lot more damage to the trails.

  181. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR Chensley View Post
    I got a friend that weighs over 300 pounds and this guy rides hard too. I can't imagine a normal sized guy on an e-bike does a whole lot more damage to the trails.
    So are you suggesting a weight limit for E-bike users?

    It's not necessarily about the damage from a single bike will do as it is about how many more users some trails may see.

  182. #182
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    sandy ridge trails are super packed machine built clay/gravel....armoured. even when they were first built there was never any loam . ebike wouldn't effect trail quality.

    I've seen several ebikers at SR , looks like fun.

  183. #183
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    So what happens when an Ebiker is going 20 mph UPHILL and someone is bombing a downhill? What used to be a 30 mph meets 5 mph is now a 30 mph meets 20 mph. I can tell you that many times either while climbing or descending that I have had near misses with people and that is the 5 mph scenario!!

    This WILL be a problem as Ebikes gain more and more popularity amongst the lazy.

    Gotta earn your turns.

  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by cburden View Post
    sandy ridge trails are super packed machine built clay/gravel....armoured. even when they were first built there was never any loam . ebike wouldn't effect trail quality.

    I've seen several ebikers at SR , looks like fun.
    Too bad I did not keep the RM125 from my youth. Yeah, fun...
    Lazy, lazy, with a large side of lazy. Pool all of your money and pay for a ski lift to the kiosk. Funny, I would rather have potable water at the kiosk to alleviate any need to carry more than one bottle. BTW, if you cannot ride 25mph under your own power maybe you shouldnít at all. Yep, earn your turns.
    Master of Laundry...Lord of Cleaning!

  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruffm View Post
    So what happens when an Ebiker is going 20 mph UPHILL and someone is bombing a downhill?
    Common myth. An eBike cannot go 20mph up a hill. A Class 1/2/3 eBike is limited to 1 HP in the US. By comparison, a 50cc moped that can go 25mph on level ground is typically 3hp. I am just 64kg and tested a 2019 Giant Trance E+2 up a 9.5% grade and could only average 13mph.

  186. #186
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    13mph up a 9.5% grade is a pretty impressive speed for a bicycle, though. I'm not entirely anti-e-mtb (I think they have their place), but I could see that potentially posing a significant problem.
    Support mtb'ing in the Portland area, join NWTA with your dollars, hands, and/or voice. nw-trail.org

  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruffm View Post
    This WILL be a problem as Ebikes gain more and more popularity amongst the lazy.

    Gotta earn your turns.
    Please speak for yourself. You'll gain more cred by saying something like this:
    Quote Originally Posted by ruffm View Post
    I've gotta earn my turns.
    Who are you calling lazy? Folks out riding pedal assist bikes rather than couch surfing while watching daytime TV? Wait, what if we're not riding rigid singlespeeds off-road? Might we be considered lazy by someone else's definition? By comparison?

    Is it safe to assume you're also campaigning to make couch surfing and daytime TV illegal as well as pedal-assist bikes? Seems like the right thing for you to do given your prejudices surrounding comparative fitness options.

    Ruffm, to me your comments are reminiscent of hikers talking about mountain bikers back in the late 1980s. "You people are using trails incorrectly because you're not doing it the way we're doing it. Therefore you don't belong."

    Don't assume by my response that I'm an e-biker. I'm not. Not yet. I simply believe in fair access for all. Just because e-bikes are different than mountain bikes doesn't mean e-bikes don't belong on multi-use trails. Refer to 1980s hiker vs biker attitude in the previous paragraph.

    As for the speed issue, hikers raised similar concerns about mountain bikers a few brief decades ago, too.

    E-bikes aren't analog bikes nor are they motorcycles -- they're something new. The core issue is this: e-bikes are a new trail user and typically existing trail users oppose any new trail user. Just as hikers got over mountain bikes back when mountain bikes were the new trail user, everyone will get over e-bikes on trails, too.

    Of all people to understand and embrace changes in trail users, based on our own experience, we mountain bikers should be the first.
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    We get old because we quit riding.

  188. #188
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    Well said!

    I started this thread out of curiosity about ebikes. Since then I've seen a bunch at SR and riden some as well as talked to our local BLM manager on the topic. I think once more people get educated on the topic they will see that ebikes and po deal bikes can coexist.

    from what blm told my group is that ebikes are a grey area as far as being allowed/banned from local trails but also said they don't consider them as motorized vehicles. there definition for motorized is gas driven.

  189. #189
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    Getting salty over eBikes is like getting mad at the sun rising. eBikes are happening whether folks like it or not, and soon sales of eBikes will outstrip 'analog' bikes. And yes, soon we'll also have throttle controlled, mountain bike-framed motos on the trails. They're already here in small numbers, but they will dominate trails at some point. Our opinions on the matter are immaterial.

    Personally, I'll be cranking on old fashioned human powered bikes until my body gives out, which will be sooner rather than later. Till then, getting our collective panties in a wad is a waste of energy. Side note, I met a rad 70 year old dude at SR recently who is getting back into mountain biking after a long break and he's on an eBike. After seeing the ear to ear grin on his face I'm all for it. When people start discussing the merits of who should be riding eBikes (old, disabled, out of shape, etc) I just roll me eyes.

    Ride your bike, whatever it is. Have fun. Stop worrying about what anyone else rides. The trails don't care. The mountains don't care. Why should we? I enjoy climbing as much as descending. But I'm not going to castigate DHers for shuttling up mountains. I was even accused of 'cheating' because I have a 29er instead of a 27.5. The level of 'You're doing it wrong!" is getting out of control.

    It's pretty simple. You do you.

  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by i.a.n. View Post
    It's pretty simple. You do you.
    I agree - eMTBs are here and within a few years it will be difficult to spot one w/o close inspection. The march of technology doesnít care about whether weíre ready for it.

    I donít plan on riding an eMTB any time soon and while Iím not a real fan, I also donít have a personal issue with eMTB/eBike riders (except for the insane food delivery eBike riders in NYC ).

    ...where I *DO* have an issue is with the eBike manufacturers not really taking a leadership role in helping mitigate the whole trail access/use issue.

    eBikes have motors, so legal and regulatory changes are needed, but I donít see anyone figuring out how this is going to work going forward. Or maybe Iím missing something?
    - -benja- -

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