What do you think "Normal" will look like when we get back to it?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    What do you think "Normal" will look like when we get back to it?

    Probably nothing like the old "normal".
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  2. #2
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    We will very likely lose freedoms that we had before.

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  3. #3
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    I think everything goes back to exactly the same way as it was. Maybe take a while, but exactly the same.

    Temporary normal though is this. Relaxed standards during summer. Return to current temp normal next winter, until we have a vaccine.

    My guess.

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    More fist bumps in lieu of handshakes. Unfortunately, everything else will return to normal.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by net wurker View Post
    Probably nothing like the old "normal".
    That's nothing to sneeze at.
    "Thousands of you may die…it is what it is." - Lord Farkwad

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    Apps on your phone for every place you shop at. Money and credit cards (and check writing thank dog!) will become a thing of the past. Your phone will now be your wallet, just scan the barcode on your screen and you're out the door, receipt is sent to your phone. No more touch screens and pin pads.
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  7. #7
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    (Hopefully) far more use of teleworking with improved online meeting apps.
    "Thousands of you may die…it is what it is." - Lord Farkwad

    Real eyes realize real lies.

  8. #8
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    Something out of the Madmax series, probably Thunderdome would be a good guess. If ya'll know any really intelligent little people I'm looking to team up with somebody.

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    two man enter, one man leave.

  10. #10
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    The same as before only different.
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    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  11. #11
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    Rude, and selfish aholes won't change.

    I had to tell a lady in the market to stop touching every single egg in every box!!
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  12. #12
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    The Bull returned today......
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  13. #13
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    "Normal" was always just an illusion.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    The Bull returned today......
    That's a normal I can get behind.
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  15. #15
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    One of the biggest things I hope society takes from this is to not spend every single dollar you make. Hopefully people will try to put back some money for rainy days. I think social distancing is going to be the new norm for a lot of people even after we are in the clear from corona. Only time will tell.
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  16. #16
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    Excellent post.
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  17. #17
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    Have no one idea. Guess it depends on how bad it gets and how long it takes. Think it will take longer than most think. Also think it won’t be as damaging. Although if you lose control of your life financially, or lose the life of a loved one, stats don’t make you feel better
    Round and round we go

  18. #18
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    In California, at least where I'm at, society seems to be built on over consumption. They eat out constantly and buy the fanciest stuff they can.

  19. #19
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    "Normal" itself has always been an artificial construct. The real question has always been who made it so.
    I believe the new "normal" is being constructed by the same groups.
    Just call me Ray

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    That's nothing to sneeze at.
    Unfortunately you will be arrested if you sneeze. Already happening in the news.

  21. #21
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    The new normal will just appear to be normal... After all, it's normal.

  22. #22
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    Sex robots, geebuz I just searched youtube and my feed is probably forever tainted!
    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    some weird crazed desert dweller.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radium View Post
    "Normal" itself has always been an artificial construct. The real question has always been who made it so.
    I believe the new "normal" is being constructed by the same groups.
    Word

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radium View Post
    The real question has always been who made it so.
    .
    Or who sold it so. There's some fascinating history around how Americans and, in turn, the world were systematically manipulated to be mega-consumers. We can't help ourselves - we are hardwired to find new things interesting....but "what are you willing to trade for it?" and why ... might be the more enlightening aspect.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcd46 View Post
    Rude, and selfish aholes won't change.

    I had to tell a lady in the market to stop touching every single egg in every box!!
    "Lady, keep your hands in your own box!"
    "Thousands of you may die…it is what it is." - Lord Farkwad

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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    "Lady, keep your hands in your own box!"
    No sh*t!
    Why would she be touching every egg in every box even in normal times?
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  27. #27
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    Women and their eggs, always fondling them when they think no one is watching.
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  28. #28
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    I hope this “social distancing” thing sticks.


    You know.. those damned close talkers

    Just sayin, it’s been nice

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BALE View Post
    More fist bumps in lieu of handshakes.
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfield View Post
    Apps on your phone for every place you shop at. Money and credit cards (and check writing thank dog!) will become a thing of the past. Your phone will now be your wallet, just scan the barcode on your screen and you're out the door, receipt is sent to your phone. No more touch screens and pin pads.
    Yep, a lot less cash transactions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir kayakalot View Post
    One of the biggest things I hope society takes from this is to not spend every single dollar you make. Hopefully people will try to put back some money for rainy days. I think social distancing is going to be the new norm for a lot of people even after we are in the clear from corona. Only time will tell.
    I sure hope so. I hope this resonates with us as the great depression did with my dad's generation. I don't think my dad ever wasted a scrap of paper.

    Quote Originally Posted by EugeneTheJeep View Post
    Sex robots, geebuz I just searched youtube and my feed is probably forever tainted!
    LOLZ

    Also, I think there will be a greater push to work at home. My wife has worked from home for eight years and I've worked from home for the past two. It's the future, and some employers realized this before the virus hit.

    I'd like to see schools adopt flexible learn from home arrangements. Every year our schools close for a week or more because of flu season. And each of the last two years schools have closed several days because of flooding. Maybe they'll start planning for a few week stretch of learn from home for flu season each year. The at-home dates don't have to be set, but could change and be adapted to with not too much notice.

    And the gap between food servers, grocery clerks and firefighters will lessen. Hopefully the former get more respect and may ultimately push higher minimum wages.

  30. #30
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    I made this comment in another thread, but it fits well here.

    You know how in the "old days" (a month ago) you'd see someone coming the other way on a sidewalk or in a store, you'd smile and say "Hi" but they'd just put their head down and keep walking, and you'd wonder "what's wrong with them?" Now it's the complete opposite.
    "Thousands of you may die…it is what it is." - Lord Farkwad

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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    No sh*t!
    Why would she be touching every egg in every box even in normal times?
    I actually have an answer, she said to make sure they are not cracked!
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    I made this comment in another thread, but it fits well here.

    You know how in the "old days" (a month ago) you'd see someone coming the other way on a sidewalk or in a store, you'd smile and say "Hi" but they'd just put their head down and keep walking, and you'd wonder "what's wrong with them?" Now it's the complete opposite.
    Their head is down because they are walking while on their cell phone.

    Today, there was a young lady skateboarding on the pathway with her friend and going over the yellow solid line on the pathway and just about got hit hard but at the last minute she looked up and shrieked loud. Another lady didnt even look up from her cell phone while I past her, she was walking right in the middle but slightly on the wrong side. All too common. Heck, I've even seen people reading a book, a paper book, while walking. Its crazy, absolutely crazy. Imagine what those people do while driving. Scary.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt4x4 View Post
    Their head is down because they are walking while on their cell phone.

    Today, there was a young lady skateboarding on the pathway with her friend and going over the yellow solid line on the pathway and just about got hit hard but at the last minute she looked up and shrieked loud. Another lady didnt even look up from her cell phone while I past her, she was walking right in the middle but slightly on the wrong side. All too common. Heck, I've even seen people reading a book, a paper book, while walking. Its crazy, absolutely crazy. Imagine what those people do while driving. Scary.
    This drives me crazy! I was riding my road bike on one of those paved multi-use paths a couple days ago to get some miles in while I'm waiting on a new dropper post to arrive for my MTB and it was a painful reminder of how people don't pay attention. So many people with earbuds/headphones/cell phones walking or jogging that were oblivious to anything going on around them. Way worse than hikers on the MTB trails. I had one lady walking with a couple of kids that was walking towards me all spread across the path. The kids were to their side, but she was walking directly towards me, head down playing with her cell phone. I had to yell "hello" to even get her to look up. She finally looked up with a surprised look on her face and reluctantly moved to the side so I could pass.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    Or who sold it so. There's some fascinating history around how Americans and, in turn, the world were systematically manipulated to be mega-consumers. We can't help ourselves - we are hardwired to find new things interesting....but "what are you willing to trade for it?" and why ... might be the more enlightening aspect.
    Yep. We hear about how our grandparents didn't buy things until they had enough money to do so. Then credit cards were invented. People complain about taxes but not about paying a "tax" to mega corporations on everything they buy. A lot of us are old enough to remember when gas stations had a higher price per gallon if you were buying with a cc; now every place assumes you are and has the fees built into the price, even if you are paying cash.

    And then there are those who don't pay off their balance every month.

    And boy does marketing work.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  35. #35
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    Whatever Dr. Fauci suggests. We may be more aware of keeping our hands clean and those kinds of things.

    I wonder if families with young kids will realize that booking every waking minute of their lives with activities is indeed not healthy or necessary. Kids now have time to take a breath and learn how to cope with downtime/boredom (Maybe).
    The only important thing these days, is rhythm and melody. Rhythm...and melody.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericridebike View Post
    This drives me crazy! I was riding my road bike on one of those paved multi-use paths a couple days ago to get some miles in while I'm waiting on a new dropper post to arrive for my MTB and it was a painful reminder of how people don't pay attention. So many people with earbuds/headphones/cell phones walking or jogging that were oblivious to anything going on around them. Way worse than hikers on the MTB trails. I had one lady walking with a couple of kids that was walking towards me all spread across the path. The kids were to their side, but she was walking directly towards me, head down playing with her cell phone. I had to yell "hello" to even get her to look up. She finally looked up with a surprised look on her face and reluctantly moved to the side so I could pass.
    Some people on MUT's tend to forget that the rules are similar to being on the road....stay to your right.
    The only important thing these days, is rhythm and melody. Rhythm...and melody.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    Whatever Dr. Fauci suggests. We may be more aware of keeping our hands clean and those kinds of things.

    I wonder if families with young kids will realize that booking every waking minute of their lives with activities is indeed not healthy or necessary. Kids now have time to take a breath and learn how to cope with downtime/boredom (Maybe).
    I wish I could positive rep you for that. Most excellent post crank.
    DAAAANG...that was janky

  38. #38
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    I'll say that this will change the industry I work in, corporate events. We are already having to include "pivot plans" on our proposals as to what we would do if something similar closes down the physical event; just like we have "rain plans" on outdoor portions of events. I can see more events going virtual but as long as we get the green light to gather in large groups and it is considered safe, I think most events of the type we do will return to being live.

    Our "normal" changed due to domestic terror attacks. Hiring snipers on rooftops became a thing (no, I can't get you a gig) as did the use of Jersey barriers, those concrete dividers used to temporarily block cars from crossing over into an area. We sometimes get caught between security telling us we have to arrange them to block vehicles and the Fire Marshall telling us we must keep a clear path for fire trucks to enter.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericridebike View Post
    This drives me crazy! I was riding my road bike on one of those paved multi-use paths a couple days ago to get some miles in while I'm waiting on a new dropper post to arrive for my MTB and it was a painful reminder of how people don't pay attention. So many people with earbuds/headphones/cell phones walking or jogging that were oblivious to anything going on around them. Way worse than hikers on the MTB trails. I had one lady walking with a couple of kids that was walking towards me all spread across the path. The kids were to their side, but she was walking directly towards me, head down playing with her cell phone. I had to yell "hello" to even get her to look up. She finally looked up with a surprised look on her face and reluctantly moved to the side so I could pass.
    Yep, it’s worse than ever on the bike paths now. Even the trails that are still open can be a challenge getting others attention.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    I wonder if families with young kids will realize that booking every waking minute of their lives with activities is indeed not healthy or necessary. Kids now have time to take a breath and learn how to cope with downtime/boredom (Maybe).
    ^^ This is one of the best and most meaningful comments I’ve seen regarding the whole thing.


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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    ^^ This is one of the best and most meaningful comments I’ve seen regarding the whole thing.


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    I agree but also it’s a great time to bond with your kids. Most likely you will never get this kind of time to spend with them again so make it worthwhile.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Yep. We hear about how our grandparents didn't buy things until they had enough money to do so. Then credit cards were invented. People complain about taxes but not about paying a "tax" to mega corporations on everything they buy. A lot of us are old enough to remember when gas stations had a higher price per gallon if you were buying with a cc; now every place assumes you are and has the fees built into the price, even if you are paying cash.

    And then there are those who don't pay off their balance every month.

    And boy does marketing work.

    I haven't carried cash in years. CC for everything, I don't mind paying more for that convenience because it is my choice, unlike taxes

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    I'll say that this will change the industry I work in, corporate events. We are already having to include "pivot plans" on our proposals as to what we would do if something similar closes down the physical event; just like we have "rain plans" on outdoor portions of events. I can see more events going virtual but as long as we get the green light to gather in large groups and it is considered safe, I think most events of the type we do will return to being live.

    Our "normal" changed due to domestic terror attacks. Hiring snipers on rooftops became a thing (no, I can't get you a gig) as did the use of Jersey barriers, those concrete dividers used to temporarily block cars from crossing over into an area. We sometimes get caught between security telling us we have to arrange them to block vehicles and the Fire Marshall telling us we must keep a clear path for fire trucks to enter.
    We'll get back to gathering in crowds. I don't think this will significantly change how we interact because, like other pandemics, medicine will intervene and hopefully make us safer.

    My wife works in a roughly similar line of work as you in which everything is based upon large crowd gatherings.
    The only important thing these days, is rhythm and melody. Rhythm...and melody.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    Whatever Dr. Fauci suggests. We may be more aware of keeping our hands clean and those kinds of things.

    I wonder if families with young kids will realize that booking every waking minute of their lives with activities is indeed not healthy or necessary. Kids now have time to take a breath and learn how to cope with downtime/boredom (Maybe).
    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    ^^ This is one of the best and most meaningful comments I’ve seen regarding the whole thing.


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    Have talked to my daughter and some friends about just this. Parents running around all the time. Kids who care about grades always working, studying, stressed. Spring break, proms, work, etc etc, lather, rinse, repeat, all gone, poof!
    Round and round we go

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  46. #46
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    Unfortunately (for me at least) the new normal will swing back a bit to the old and I'll be up at 0500 to take a shower, pack a lunch and head into work. Not everything can be done from home.

    With some social distancing still fresh on people's minds, hopefully there will be fewer distracting "drive-bys" in the cube farm.

    My primary place to travel for work is Scottsdale AZ. I hate flying in general, so maybe this is the perfect opportunity to justify driving over. I could bring a bike with me; or, if I do some pre-planning, maybe I can take one home with me
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  47. #47
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    Here is a bit of a different twist:

    CBRE, a national corporate real estate company had been projecting 2021 GDP increase of ~1.9% as of January. A couple weeks ago it was up to 3.4% and last week 5+%. Why?

    1.) the stimulus
    2.) the expectation that corporations will not put as many eggs in the China basket. Expect more companies to move operations home.

    Our company builds lots of large warehouse/distribution buildings. Developers are forging ahead with 200,000 sf speculative buildings right and left. Amazon continues to build.

    Perhaps an old normal, "made in America" will become a new normal.

  48. #48
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    People will go stand in crowds, face down looking at cat videos on their phones.

    Same as before.
    Do not take anything I post seriously. I don't.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    Here is a bit of a different twist:

    CBRE, a national corporate real estate company had been projecting 2021 GDP increase of ~1.9% as of January. A couple weeks ago it was up to 3.4% and last week 5+%. Why?

    1.) the stimulus
    2.) the expectation that corporations will not put as many eggs in the China basket. Expect more companies to move operations home.

    Our company builds lots of large warehouse/distribution buildings. Developers are forging ahead with 200,000 sf speculative buildings right and left. Amazon continues to build.

    Perhaps an old normal, "made in America" will become a new normal.
    Think and hope you’re right. While at the same time hope countries become more aware of how we are in it together
    Round and round we go

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    I haven't carried cash in years. CC for everything, I don't mind paying more for that convenience because it is my choice, unlike taxes
    Ah, but that's my point, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. It's not actually your choice, the cc tax is already built into the price so unless you are able to negotiate a cash discount when you pay cash, you are paying the tax to the corporation whether you choose to use the service or not.
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  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    I wonder if families with young kids will realize that booking every waking minute of their lives with activities is indeed not healthy or necessary. Kids now have time to take a breath and learn how to cope with downtime/boredom (Maybe).
    Absolutely! This is the silver lining I'm hoping for. And hopefully it sticks.


    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post

    Perhaps an old normal, "made in America" will become a new normal.
    I hadn't thought of this possibility. Lets pray this becomes the case.

  52. #52
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    If the price is the same then it is the seller who is paying the fee through reduced profit. By paying cash you paying a greater profit to the seller, which may or may not be something you want to do

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    A Police State, disguised as virus containment..

    also a economic hellscape.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    If the price is the same then it is the seller who is paying the fee through reduced profit. By paying cash you paying a greater profit to the seller, which may or may not be something you want to do
    The sellers have factored in the cost of cc processing when they calculate their prices. It is a cost of doing business.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfield View Post
    I just love it when the light shines on their fake eyebrows.

    I cannot STAND fake, drawn-in, tattooed, whatever, eyebrows.
    "Nobody likes me."

    DJT

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    I just love it when the light shines on their fake eyebrows.

    I cannot STAND fake, drawn-in, tattooed, whatever, eyebrows.
    What do you think "Normal" will look like when we get back to it?-2975e1d4-c4cf-4377-b6f9-3d443967348c.jpeg
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ericridebike View Post
    This drives me crazy! I was riding my road bike on one of those paved multi-use paths a couple days ago to get some miles in while I'm waiting on a new dropper post to arrive for my MTB and it was a painful reminder of how people don't pay attention. So many people with earbuds/headphones/cell phones walking or jogging that were oblivious to anything going on around them. Way worse than hikers on the MTB trails. I had one lady walking with a couple of kids that was walking towards me all spread across the path. The kids were to their side, but she was walking directly towards me, head down playing with her cell phone. I had to yell "hello" to even get her to look up. She finally looked up with a surprised look on her face and reluctantly moved to the side so I could pass.
    Everyday there are some casuals pulling crap like that, all the time.
    - 3+ people Blocking entire width of pathway
    - 2 people walking in the middle of the pathway
    - One person walking zig zag like.
    - Dog walkers with dog 20' away on leash, one dog or multiple dogs
    - Dog walkers who cant control their dog(s) off leash
    - Dog walkers not having animals on leash in non-off leash areas, pretty much everywhere.
    - Families spread out with children away from parents
    - Oblivious users, texting, head down

  58. #58
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    Returning to normal will involve eating an extra plate at the Indian buffet because I'm grateful to not have to try to cook it.

    Other than that, the real question du jour is whether or not people with have very dry skin from washing their hands way more often or very soft skin from using lotion to fap way more often.
    dang

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    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    ...Other than that, the real question du jour is whether or not people with have very dry skin from washing their hands way more often or very soft skin from using lotion to fap way more often.
    ...Or even weaker immune systems from the constant bathing in sanitizer.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaxMustang50 View Post
    ...Or even weaker immune systems from the constant bathing in sanitizer.
    I would not use hand sanitizer for that
    dang

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    I would not use hand sanitizer for that
    It's an unfortunate side effect of constantly slathering it on.
    Just call me Ray

  62. #62
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    What normal will look like just down the road from the place in Missouri......
    Enjoy.
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir kayakalot View Post
    One of the biggest things I hope society takes from this is to not spend every single dollar you make. Hopefully people will try to put back some money for rainy days. I think social distancing is going to be the new norm for a lot of people even after we are in the clear from corona. Only time will tell.
    Unfortunately Sir K, millions of Americans are not earning enough to be able to put anything aside. They are struggling to survive even tho working full time. This extends beyond those we might think are impoverished to many who we might not think would be in this group.

    I hope that people doing those jobs that are grossly underpaid yet essential as we just found out, start to get a wage that does allow them to save a bit for a rainy day!
    It's all Here. Now.

  64. #64
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    Cure for Dry Skin.
    Looking forward to Summer Rivers.....
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  65. #65
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    Many people will never save money no matter how much you pay them. They will spend the money as soon as they get it. They have to have the latest phone, lease new cars, latest fashions. What the new normal will be is that more people will now expect the government to take care of them

  66. #66
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    COVID-19 has forced us to learn/use the internet to obtain more things that we would usually interacted with people with to obtain. Sadly, it has driven individualism to new heights.
    life is... "All About Bikes"...

  67. #67
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    Economics should be reintroduced into the public school system.
    Compound interest, stock market, insurance, bond market, cash flow, inflation, job security, reliable, adaptable broad based skill market.
    When to save, when to spend.
    Financial discipline and financial reward.

    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    Many people will never save money no matter how much you pay them. They will spend the money as soon as they get it. They have to have the latest phone, lease new cars, latest fashions. What the new normal will be is that more people will now expect the government to take care of them
    The first part of this is quite true, but the keyword here is 'many'. Not by any means a majority.
    And the main reason I see that people might need the government to help them is because they cannot earn a decent wage. As we have seen in the last few weeks, we rely on all kinds of workers to keep our society running smoothly, yet we simply do not pay them a decent wage. I feel that the great majority of people would be happier to earn decent money rather than rely on government handouts.
    It's all Here. Now.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    Economics should be reintroduced into the public school system.
    Compound interest, stock market, insurance, bond market, cash flow, inflation, job security, reliable, adaptable broad based skill market.
    When to save, when to spend.
    Financial discipline and financial reward.
    I'm surprised at the number of people who think DR's approach is wrong. I naturally do alot of what he espouses, but not because he said so. I did it before I ever heard of him. It doesn't help that the gov't supports bad behavior. An example - "free college" proposals only apply to people who take out student loans but don't help those who actually paid for their education out of their own pockets.

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    The herd will still gather towards the longest/ most crowded line, while I find the shortest line.
    I will let the bulge in my saving get more bulge.
    Women will keep having more kids, when they can't even afford their first.
    The dumb people/ hikers with ear buds will still block the smoothest trail line and make you ride through the over grown weeds/ rutted trench.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    Many people will never save money no matter how much you pay them. They will spend the money as soon as they get it. They have to have the latest phone, lease new cars, latest fashions. What the new normal will be is that more people will now expect the government to take care of them
    This is the problem. I can’t say it any better. I worked for over 30 years at a full time job making average pay. I payed a lot into a retirement fund for 26 years. For 20 of those years, I had a lawn mowing business that I ran by myself. I made more money doing that than at my regular job. That side hustle paid off my house and vehicles and toys. My house isn’t very big, 1200 sf. I do have a big piece of land, which is more important to me than the house, which some people will see as totally ass backwards. But the point is, you CAN save money if you are willing to work enough. Some people will only work 40 hrs/wk and no more. Some people will spend every dime they earn no matter how much they make. It takes dedication and commitment.
    DAAAANG...that was janky

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir kayakalot View Post
    This is the problem. I can’t say it any better. I worked for over 30 years at a full time job making average pay. I payed a lot into a retirement fund for 26 years. For 20 of those years, I had a lawn mowing business that I ran by myself. I made more money doing that than at my regular job. That side hustle paid off my house and vehicles and toys. My house isn’t very big, 1200 sf. I do have a big piece of land, which is more important to me than the house, which some people will see as totally ass backwards. But the point is, you CAN save money if you are willing to work enough. Some people will only work 40 hrs/wk and no more. Some people will spend every dime they earn no matter how much they make. It takes dedication and commitment.
    You are a lucky man. Many people work as hard yet do not have the opportunities to thrive as you have. Adversity can strike anyone and wipe out savings, take away businesses or whatever. Sh*t happens. You are one amongst many millions, all are different.
    It's all Here. Now.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    Many people will never save money no matter how much you pay them. They will spend the money as soon as they get it. They have to have the latest phone, lease new cars, latest fashions. What the new normal will be is that more people will now expect the government to take care of them
    This is true. I know some people who make considerably more than I do that always act broke as hell, and they kinda are. New construction house, alimony, $50k truck, loan on a tractor. That stuff ads up quick. But this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with people being lazy or not, I'm just convinced that people have absolutely no foresight or hindsight. Like I know people who are absolutely sideswiped by property taxes every year. They come every year. It's not a surprise.

    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    Economics should be reintroduced into the public school system.
    Compound interest, stock market, insurance, bond market, cash flow, inflation, job security, reliable, adaptable broad based skill market.
    When to save, when to spend.
    Financial discipline and financial reward.

    I don't know that it isn't still in the education system. I only graduated from high school like a decade ago and financial concepts were integrated into math classes. Hell maybe I'm wrong.

    I think Dave Ramsey generally gives good financial advice. I'll admit I didn't watch that whole video, because I kind of find his persona to be mildly annoying. The thing is that it's kind of a false dichotomy. Some people are lazy or really bad at planning and are poor because of that. I know people who work their asses off and are poor anyway. Then again, not everyone experiences the same access to resources and advancement in life. I've argued this with someone who basically walked into a cushy construction job (I'm talking about pay, dude works hard) with the company his dad worked for, his family always had land and resources to work that land, but he kinda acted like everyone had the same opportunities as him. I didn't grow up driving tractors (my family did smaller scale vegetable farming, so mostly hoeing fields), and so would anyone in their right mind ever hire me to drive one if I wanted to quit my job to do that now? Probably not. It's not that I couldn't learn, I'm just behind the curve. Would you hire and train someone to do something when you could hire the guy who's been driving tractors since he was 8 on his family's farm? Some people would, most wouldn't.
    dang

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    The first part of this is quite true, but the keyword here is 'many'. Not by any means a majority.
    And the main reason I see that people might need the government to help them is because they cannot earn a decent wage. As we have seen in the last few weeks, we rely on all kinds of workers to keep our society running smoothly, yet we simply do not pay them a decent wage. I feel that the great majority of people would be happier to earn decent money rather than rely on government handouts.
    The jobs that pay low wage are low skilled jobs, they are starter jobs that teach you how to show up on time, do what is expected of you. They aren't a career, but people have turned flipping burgers and stocking shelves into a career because they believe its government job to take care of them. And since the government pays them, they have no incentive to better themselves. If you want a better wage, get a better job.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    You are a lucky man. Many people work as hard yet do not have the opportunities to thrive as you have. Adversity can strike anyone and wipe out savings, take away businesses or whatever. Sh*t happens. You are one amongst many millions, all are different.
    It's hard for people to realize that even if they do work hard they are fortunate and that many who work as hard are less fortunate. Good on, ya, Sir K, you've earned it, and I'm sure you also recognize that you have experienced both hard labor and good fortune.
    dang

  76. #76
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    Very interesting insights.
    Work ethic
    College debt
    Building wealth
    Controlling debt

    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    I'm just convinced that people have absolutely no foresight or hindsight.

    Individual humans can vary greatly but as a species that does seem to be the sad truth.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    The jobs that pay low wage are low skilled jobs, they are starter jobs that teach you how to show up on time, do what is expected of you. They aren't a career, but people have turned flipping burgers and stocking shelves into a career because they believe its government job to take care of them. And since the government pays them, they have no incentive to better themselves. If you want a better wage, get a better job.
    This is a bad take, man. Like, maybe ideally hard job = good pay, but that's not necessarily even true. But however stupid the job if you're asking someone to give up a disproportionate amount of their walking life to do something then maybe they should at least be able to pay rent and buy food. Besides not everyone can have a "better job" as they call it. We can't operate in a world of experts, we need people to do stupid shit for us, the critical word being need.
    dang

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    What normal will look like just down the road from the place in Missouri......
    Enjoy.
    We're on Episode 10 of the current season....spectacular show, that Ozark.
    The only important thing these days, is rhythm and melody. Rhythm...and melody.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    We're on Episode 10 of the current season....spectacular show, that Ozark.
    No cable.
    No Netflix.
    No drama.
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    No cable.
    No Netflix.
    No drama.
    Only comedy and tragedy?
    dang

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    The jobs that pay low wage are low skilled jobs, they are starter jobs that teach you how to show up on time, do what is expected of you. They aren't a career, but people have turned flipping burgers and stocking shelves into a career because they believe its government job to take care of them. And since the government pays them, they have no incentive to better themselves. If you want a better wage, get a better job.
    And the hits just keep coming from bacon, IMO. My first real job was at a steak house. I learned a whole lot there, like bacon said, how to show up on time and do what they needed me to do. I saw slackers come and go. I also saw people who made a career at that restaurant. They drove old cars and lived in an apartment and were content. That wasn’t what I wanted. So after a few years I got a job at a factory making better pay. The things I learned about working for someone else prepared me to do good work at the factory. Then I found my career job and left the factory. Same deal, learning how to WORK my way up in rank at the factory helped prepare me for the job that I would eventually retire from. Yes I am fortunate to not have any major hospital bills in my life other than the birth of my child and several broken bones from motorcycle wrecks, but I still wouldn’t be where I am today without hard work and not settling for a 40 hr work week.
    DAAAANG...that was janky

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    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    This is a bad take, man. Like, maybe ideally hard job = good pay, but that's not necessarily even true. But however stupid the job if you're asking someone to give up a disproportionate amount of their walking life to do something then maybe they should at least be able to pay rent and buy food. Besides not everyone can have a "better job" as they call it. We can't operate in a world of experts, we need people to do stupid shit for us, the critical word being need.
    We do need people to do the shit work and then when they learn those skills, they need to move up the wage ladder. Opening the spot for new workers to learn the same skills, then they move up. These are jobs for high school kids that live at home, they aren't jobs meant for people to raise a family and buy a house on.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt4x4 View Post
    - Families spread out with children away from parents
    What a shitty time to be a kid, eh? There once was a time when we could escape parental supervision without a worry in the world. Now-a-days it seems like society expects you to keep your kid on a leash.

  85. #85
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    i hope that people re-align priorities. if you don't make enough money, try do something that improves your chances of making more. didn't jojo biden say "learn how to code"? ("let them eat cake" moment?)
    instead of buying a $50,000 truck, buy some training. instead of buying and consuming that bag of pot, learn how to do something that makes you a better person. time is valuable.

    not everybody can be a CEO or be an executive making zillions of $$$ (me included), but we can all do something to improve our existence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    Only comedy and tragedy?
    Pretty much....
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    We do need people to do the shit work and then when they learn those skills, they need to move up the wage ladder. Opening the spot for new workers to learn the same skills, then they move up. These are jobs for high school kids that live at home, they aren't jobs meant for people to raise a family and buy a house on.
    I'm afraid that this version of reality is a little removed from most people's BF. This American dream is a diminishing actuality for a good number of reasons.
    It's all Here. Now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by be1 View Post
    not everybody can be a CEO or be an executive making zillions of $$$ (me included), but we can all do something to improve our existence.
    Yes we can, but for many it is very hard to see the possibilities from a room full of sh*t.
    It's all Here. Now.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    We do need people to do the shit work and then when they learn those skills, they need to move up the wage ladder. Opening the spot for new workers to learn the same skills, then they move up. These are jobs for high school kids that live at home, they aren't jobs meant for people to raise a family and buy a house on.
    And when job opportunities are stagnant? What if you start working when you're sixteen to make up for wages lost by a deceased, absent, or sick parent/wage earner, but are never able to save enough for a car to go to job interviews, etc because you just work some stupid job which barely pays anything and all of your labor goes towards paying rent or medical bills for cohabitating loved ones? Sounds far fetched, eh? Nevertheless this is a common story.

    I'm glad you're a hard worker and have been fortunate enough to have had good opportunities and that they have paid off. I've been very fortunate in life, as well (though I may have squandered that by going into the ecology field... Still waiting for my massive global warming and George Soros payouts!), but is it so hard to be able to say that not everyone in a tight spot is in that spot because they are lazy, stupid, or lack ambition? Not really. If it is, then just wait until increasing automation reduces the number of laborers necessary further and job searchers far outpace jobs available! I think that it will only be a couple of decades tops.
    dang

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Yes we can, but for many it is very hard to see the possibilities from a room full of sh*t.
    maybe leave that room for awhile?

    edit: if i were in a room full of sh*t i wouldn't be there long. i would either leave or clean it up so i could stay. but i realize some people prefer sh*t.

  91. #91
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    Unemployment will be higher.
    Trails will be more crowded.
    Property crimes will increase.
    Liberties will be lost.
    The prosperous will attempt to blend in with their surroundings instead of flaunting their wealth.
    National healthcare will take hold permanently, as well as some form of UBI.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by be1 View Post
    maybe leave that room for awhile?

    edit: if i were in a room full of sh*t i wouldn't be there long. i would either leave or clean it up so i could stay. but i realize some people prefer sh*t.
    No, I doubt very much they do. Some of us are able to see it as you, and indeed I do, but not all are the same, and the depth of the sh*t is almost impossible for those people to get out of. That is reality for all too many.
    It's easy for us to say this when we are standing outside the room, but try it when you are buried in it...
    It's all Here. Now.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by be1 View Post
    maybe leave that room for awhile?

    edit: if i were in a room full of sh*t i wouldn't be there long. i would either leave or clean it up so i could stay. but i realize some people prefer sh*t.
    You say prefer, but I think you'd be amazed what people can become desensitized to and normalize... That's kinda like saying some women just prefer domestic violence.

    Anyway I find the sweeping generalizations and lack of compassion in threads like these to be mostly disappointing and quite the drag. Probably gonna just bow out. Have fun beating one another down, y'all.
    dang

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    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    And when job opportunities are stagnant? What if you start working when you're sixteen to make up for wages lost by a deceased, absent, or sick parent/wage earner, but are never able to save enough for a car to go to job interviews, etc because you just work some stupid job which barely pays anything and all of your labor goes towards paying rent or medical bills for cohabitating loved ones? Sounds far fetched, eh? Nevertheless this is a common story.
    .
    Take a bus, have a friend drive you. Ask the local church Lots of people deal with bad circumstances and dig themselves out, it may take a while. It when you don't try that it becomes a problem and an even bigger issue when you expect others to provide for you

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    dependence on hostile foreign governments will be replaced by dependence on our own hostile government.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    Take a bus, have a friend drive you. Ask the local church Lots of people deal with bad circumstances and dig themselves out, it may take a while. It when you don't try that it becomes a problem and an even bigger issue when you expect others to provide for you
    Alright this does warrant one last response. You're right, if you have these support systems, use them. I also would never suggest that nobody can dig themselves out of bad circumstances, but would also not to say that everyone can. This is all ideal. Friends are, by and large, unreliable. I guess I haven't considered the church, that's not my scene (though I'd imagine the people one goes to church with are in roughly similar economic circumstances, from my limited experience). Public transport is a good thing when available and reliable. Around here it's kind of a joke. It's quicker for me to walk to work than take the bus 1.5 miles. Hard to take a bus to certain jobs that need you to be "flexible" if you've got an hour and a half bus ride, which isn't uncommon (also consider that you almost have to have a cell phone to get a job from many companies, which means despite the added expense, it's not such a luxury, though a smartphone is).

    Life's a gas. Nobody asked to be here, so just be happy if you're comfortable, and don't be unkind. That's pretty much my philosophy on it all.
    dang

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    Dang, some of you guys are making it sound like “The Man” and “Big Government” has their thumb on us pressing down so hard we can’t do much for ourselves. Before the corona virus shut everything down, there was never a better time in history to make something for yourself, the American dream has never been more achievable. I realize that some get a bad draw in life, I really do get that. But damn, opportunity is everywhere you look these days. A driven, hard working, dedicated person can go wherever they want in this lifetime, the sky is the limit. That’s what I always told my son when he was growing up. He didn’t go to college. Started out small, worked his way up the ladder, bettering himself at every opportunity and now he has a nice home and family and a great life. And he did it all himself. Blue collar. Opportunity is there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    You say prefer, but I think you'd be amazed what people can become desensitized to and normalize... That's kinda like saying some women just prefer domestic violence.

    Anyway I find the sweeping generalizations and lack of compassion in threads like these to be mostly disappointing and quite the drag. Probably gonna just bow out. Have fun beating one another down, y'all.
    yeah. i don't always say the right thing. i'm not perfect. "prefer" - maybe not. learn to live with it. yes. not meant to beat anybody down. there is hope for everybody. it takes effort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by be1 View Post
    yeah. i don't always say the right thing. i'm not perfect. "prefer" - maybe not. learn to live with it. yes. not meant to beat anybody down. there is hope for everybody. it takes effort.
    Good point, as I don’t think the majority of us are here to beat anyone down. We’re passionate about the way we feel or we wouldn’t bother taking the time to post. We don’t always say the right thing or it just doesn’t come out right. But sometimes the truth (or what we perceive to be the truth) hurts, kinda like tough love.
    DAAAANG...that was janky

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    A huge house they can't afford, new cars every few years, smoke, and 18 kids....
    Just can't save any money... Geez I wonder why.
    Again, life is about choices. Read a book from Dave Ramsey or listen to his to show.
    Cut out everything not needed. Beans and rice. It can be done.
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    Some odd takes here on assumptions about other people's circumstances - more surprising is the individual being taken to task for not being prepared, while we execute on national aid for businesses. Were they somehow immune from the idea of preparing for eventual down-turns - the proverbial rainy day? Is that standard only your for fellow country-men?

    Anyway - mostly, nothing is going to change. The crisis will pass. Most things will resume as normal - eventually. However, I believe this is the planting of a seed where people might actually feel an air of vulnerability. Our comforts have proven to be subject to forces that we cannot directly control. And to that some inspiration might lead to action. I submit: what of the great American experiment if it cannot provide safety and healthy, well being for its citizens?
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    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    Anyway I find the sweeping generalizations and lack of compassion in threads like these to be mostly disappointing and quite the drag. Probably gonna just bow out. Have fun beating one another down, y'all.
    point taken. it's easy to try to read something into a post - something that was not intended and is exactly opposite of the intended meaning. if you tell someone they can't do something they'll either believe it or overcome it.

    i bow out - awkwardly as usual.....

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    Some odd takes here on assumptions about other people's circumstances - more surprising is the individual being taken to task for not being prepared, while we execute on national aid for businesses. Were they somehow immune from the idea of preparing for eventual down-turns - the proverbial rainy day? Is that standard only your for fellow country-men?

    Anyway - mostly, nothing is going to change. The crisis will pass. Most things will resume as normal - eventually. However, I believe this is the planting of a seed where people might actually feel an air of vulnerability. Our comforts have proven to be subject to forces that we cannot directly control. And to that some inspiration might lead to action. I submit: what of the great American experiment if it cannot provide safety and healthy, well being for its citizens?
    Business should fail too if they aren't prepared. But national aid was given to both individuals and businesses.

    I don't believe it is the governments job to provide safety and health for the individual. That is an individuals responsibility.

  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by be1 View Post
    point taken. it's easy to try to read something into a post - something that was not intended and is exactly opposite of the intended meaning. if you tell someone they can't do something they'll either believe it or overcome it.

    i bow out - awkwardly as usual.....
    You're good, and probably not the one I should be arguing with, but I've been a crabby ass lately and would probably argue with anything. It takes a lot to not confused optimism for blame and compassion for nihilism in discussions like these (i.e. "anyone can dig themselves out" isn't to say that if they still struggle they're somehow bad people and to say that "people will struggle despite their best efforts" isn't to say it's not worth trying and that things will never get better).
    dang

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    I don't believe it is the governments job to provide safety and health for the individual. That is an individuals responsibility.
    So what is our gov't responsibility? Define its purpose to exist if not the well being of its people?

    Assume citizenship isn't a function of birthright -rather, it was like a business trying to entice talent via its collection of benefits. Why would I want to join? What are you offering?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    So what is our gov't responsibility? Define its purpose to exist if not the well being of its people?

    Assume citizenship isn't a function of birthright -rather, it was like a business trying to entice talent via its collection of benefits. Why would I want to join? What are you offering?
    The governments job is to protect the Nation, the borders, Build infrastructure, protect equal rights, but not provide equal things. It is to provide for the Nation, not the individual.

    Why would you want to join....Freedom and responsibility. The ability to do as you please as long as it doesn't violate the rights of others. To take responsibility for your actions and decisions. The government should help people realize their dream by providing a foundation for it to grow, not by leveling the playing field

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    Our, US gov was built on the foundation of no taxation without representation, and getting away from monarchy. The rules have changed, like you don’t have to be blood decent, but the results are becoming the same when big money and Corp lobby.
    Round and round we go

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    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    That's kinda like saying some women just prefer domestic violence.
    https://youtu.be/ZFWC4SiZBao?t=36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    The governments job is to protect the Nation, the borders, Build infrastructure, protect equal rights, but not provide equal things. It is to provide for the Nation, not the individual.

    Why would you want to join....Freedom and responsibility. The ability to do as you please as long as it doesn't violate the rights of others. To take responsibility for your actions and decisions. The government should help people realize their dream by providing a foundation for it to grow, not by leveling the playing field
    Well if this is the case, did anyone bother telling them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by be1 View Post
    yeah. i don't always say the right thing. i'm not perfect. "prefer" - maybe not. learn to live with it. yes. not meant to beat anybody down. there is hope for everybody. it takes effort.
    Thanks for the admirable humility be1. You get it.
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    contact tracing... i.e. the Government knowing who you are with and where you go all the time... GREAT... F*ck that.

    How much of the Constitution will we wipe our butts with before this is over?

    I wasn't ready to give up Constitutional rights over 9/11 and I'm damn well not willing to give them up over this virus.

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    Which virus is that?



    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



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    Sweden kept stuff open and has a take responsibility for yourself policy.. It isn't any worse there than anyplace else... I wish to god we had done this as well.... Having my Constitutional rights stepped on all over the place day in and day out is getting super lame.

    If the Constitution doesn't mean anything now.. when else does it not mean anything?


    here is a story about the what the Swedes are doing.
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/10/europ...ntl/index.html

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    Notice how the government is slipping in other bills for extra surveillance, more loss of freedom bills along with Kung Flu Virus related bills. Sneaky mofo's they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt4x4 View Post
    Notice how the government is slipping in other bills for extra surveillance, more loss of freedom bills along with Kung Flu Virus related bills. Sneaky mofo's they are.
    indeed.... the loss of liberty is strong with this one... We will more or less have a Police State when this is over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt4x4 View Post
    Notice how the government is slipping in other bills for extra surveillance, more loss of freedom bills along with Kung Flu Virus related bills. Sneaky mofo's they are.
    Oh yeah. McConnell got caught last night trying to sneak one in. Mnuchin appointed king maker doesn’t inspire confidence neither
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    Well, just to add to the paranoia:

    Appeals court ruling on Texas abortion limits during pandemic

    Citing Jacobson vs. Commonwealth of Massachussets,

    “[U]nder the pressure of great dangers,”constitutional rights may be reasonably restricted “as the safety of the general public may demand.” Id. at 29. That settled rule allows the state to restrict, for example, one’s right to peaceably assemble, to publicly worship, to travel, and even to leave one’s home.
    "Jacobson instructs that all constitutional rights may be reasonably restricted to combat a public health emergency," wrote Judge Stuart Kyle Duncan for the majority.
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  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by atarione View Post
    Sweden kept stuff open and has a take responsibility for yourself policy.. It isn't any worse there than anyplace else... I wish to god we had done this as well.... Having my Constitutional rights stepped on all over the place day in and day out is getting super lame.

    If the Constitution doesn't mean anything now.. when else does it not mean anything?


    here is a story about the what the Swedes are doing.
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/10/europ...ntl/index.html
    Interesting. From your own article:

    "Sweden's "curve" -- the rate of infections and deaths caused by coronavirus -- is certainly steeper than that of many other European countries with stricter measures. A study by Imperial College London estimated that 3.1% of the Swedish population was infected (as of March 28) -- compared to 0.41% in Norway and 2.5% in the UK.

    As for deaths, by April 8, coronavirus accounted for 67 fatalities per 1 million Swedish citizens, according to the Swedish Health Ministry. Norway had 19 deaths per million, Finland seven per million. The number of deaths rose 16% on Wednesday"

    Are you citing this as a success story?

    Also - which of your rights are being infringed? Do you believe in absolute rights? Eg: Free speech in all cases or, accept the current precedent which establishes that there are limits to protections a la: "fire in a crowded theater".

    Is there a limit where common good trumps your individual liberty? Eg: can I turn on my house lights during a bombing raid?
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    Closing 23 million acres of national Forest in WA & OR seems like a counterproductive overreach to me. It has the obvious result of increasing population density for recreating elsewhere. As has been discussed before the Spanish flu mortality rates really set in during the second and third waves. Good luck to everybody come fall and winter when you've spent all summer more or less in your home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    Interesting. From your own article:

    "Sweden's "curve" -- the rate of infections and deaths caused by coronavirus -- is certainly steeper than that of many other European countries with stricter measures. A study by Imperial College London estimated that 3.1% of the Swedish population was infected (as of March 28) -- compared to 0.41% in Norway and 2.5% in the UK.

    As for deaths, by April 8, coronavirus accounted for 67 fatalities per 1 million Swedish citizens, according to the Swedish Health Ministry. Norway had 19 deaths per million, Finland seven per million. The number of deaths rose 16% on Wednesday"

    Are you citing this as a success story?

    Also - which of your rights are being infringed? Do you believe in absolute rights? Eg: Free speech in all cases or, accept the current precedent which establishes that there are limits to protections a la: "fire in a crowded theater".

    Is there a limit where common good trumps your individual liberty? Eg: can I turn on my house lights during a bombing raid?


    The US has 54~ deaths per million... it is "better" than Sweden but the cost of this "better" is far too high.. how many deaths per million will we have from unemployed people not getting medical care / suicides ..etc


    Many constitutional rights are being stepped on .. 1st, 2nd, 4th amendments for a start.

    I'm not saying there are no limits on these.. but the overstepping is pretty egregious.. and likely is to continue well after the crisis.. especially 4th amendment stomping .. contract tracing is a nightmare scenario for 4th amendment violation.


    EDIT:: It is also my belief that Sweden will come out of the 1st wave more resistant to 2nd or 3rd wave episodes.

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    "Many constitutional rights are being stepped on .. 1st, 2nd, 4th amendments for a start."

    Not sure why you think that? We can speak freely and I know my "tools" are resting at the ready and no one has broken down my door.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    "Many constitutional rights are being stepped on .. 1st, 2nd, 4th amendments for a start."

    Not sure why you think that? We can speak freely and I know my "tools" are resting at the ready and no one has broken down my door.
    can you peaceably assemble? (nope) can you buy ammo / guns ?? (can't in most of California right now). Is the Government going to track your movements and where you go all the time under the guise of virus containment? (yup).

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    I'm not of the belief that 'deaths' alone is the metric to regard the consequence of this virus. Measuring against the worst case for an individual is a bit superficial.

    We'll eventually see on what the best strategy was... lots to factor in tho when cross comparing - ex: perhaps if the US instituted Sweden's approach our numbers could be substantially worse. In fairness to all the global players, this is sort of uncharted territory regarding policy precision. However, it does seem like mandated social distancing is simple and effective.

    I'm curious about your read on the 4th. Since you called that out - can you be specific there? For that matter, I don't see 2nd amendment either...guessing because gun stores might be non-essential and closed? Feels like a reach - I mean gun stores even now subscribe to local control on open hours, business regulation, etc.
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    "can you peaceably assemble? (nope) can you buy ammo / guns ?? (can't in most of California right now). Is the Government going to track your movements and where you go all the time under the guise of virus containment? (yup)."

    Our rights have been curtailed before in times of war, but I get what you're saying. This is temperary and I agree it is unconstitutional to close gun stores -- not all are closed. Many California gun laws are already unconstitutional. I stocked up before the last few unconstitutional laws went into effect. Not sure peaceably assembly is wise right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    I'm not of the belief that 'deaths' alone is the metric to regard the consequence of this virus. Measuring against the worst case for an individual is a bit superficial.

    We'll eventually see on what the best strategy was... lots to factor in tho when cross comparing - ex: perhaps if the US instituted Sweden's approach our numbers could be substantially worse. In fairness to all the global players, this is sort of uncharted territory regarding policy precision. However, it does seem like mandated social distancing is simple and effective.

    I'm curious about your read on the 4th. Since you called that out - can you be specific there? For that matter, I don't see 2nd amendment either...guessing because gun stores might be non-essential and closed? Feels like a reach - I mean gun stores even now subscribe to local control on open hours, business regulation, etc.


    if you can't buy guns you can't keep and bear them, who is to say they don't try to confiscate them (happened during Katrina) .. for now yes if you have them you have them... I've got mine and I'm not giving them up no matter what.

    4th amendment is pretty clear to me... you see Dr. Fauci and others talking about "contract tracing" to round up people exposed to sick persons.... In order to implement that they would pretty much have to be talking about tracking everyone movements (most likely via Cellphones?) and tracking where you go and who you meet... this is an unreasonable search in my view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    "can you peaceably assemble? (nope) can you buy ammo / guns ?? (can't in most of California right now). Is the Government going to track your movements and where you go all the time under the guise of virus containment? (yup)."

    Our rights have been curtailed before in times of war, but I get what you're saying. This is temperary and I agree it is unconstitutional to close gun stores -- not all are closed. Many California gun laws are already unconstitutional. I stocked up before the last few unconstitutional laws went into effect. Not sure peaceably assembly is wise right now.
    my concern is many of the "temporary" unconstitutional moves are more or less permanent..

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    ^I'm not sure your interpretations would hold up legally. Above my pay-grade tho. Sort of like how I'm not an epidemiologist so I'm not going to 2nd guess the recommendations of people who have devoted their life to the study and give guidance using the body of evidence.

    Anyway - for lay people takes, I wonder if we surrender control of our data (cell) thus and expectation of privacy when we use apps and other services? Eg: you willingly enrolled in a service that then 'sold' this information to the government. The service owns the data, you surrendered it by subscribing. For the record, I don't like this - EU has much tighter regulation on privacy and data monitoring than the US. More freedom for the win.
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    My understanding is congress passed laws to prevent the gun taking that happened during Katrina. I do share your concerns however. I'm a "cold dead hands" type of guy anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atarione View Post
    can you buy ammo / guns ?? (can't in most of California right now)
    I don't know about where you are but in San Diego the first 4 shops I looked up are open and are selling firearms.

    The inventories are low and nobody seems to have any ammo, but that's because of knee-jerk pandemic hoarders.
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    Gun stores in my area considered essential and open
    Round and round we go

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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    I don't know about where you are but in San Diego the first 4 shops I looked up are open and are selling firearms.

    The inventories are low and nobody seems to have any ammo, but that's because of knee-jerk pandemic hoarders.
    In Ventura county they closed the guns stores a week~ ago .. I mean I have more than enough ammo myself.. but still annoyed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atarione View Post
    In Ventura county they closed the guns stores a week~ ago .. I mean I have more than enough ammo myself.. but still annoyed.
    Interesting. I know they shut down in L.A. county for a few days but re-opened after clarified federal guidance.

    San Diego never shut them down except all the ranges that I know of ceased operations. We had at least one (indoor) range open back up but I'm not sure how they're managing use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by atarione View Post
    In Ventura county they closed the guns stores a week~ ago .. I mean I have more than enough ammo myself.. but still annoyed.
    You bring a very paranoid attitude to all of this. You are wrong about Sweden as was pointed out above, and your conclusions are based on a spurious interpretation of events, but I can see why you feel this. I would be much more concerned about what is going on in Hungary right now, and how there are similarities in this country.
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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    Interesting. I know they shut down in L.A. county for a few days but re-opened after clarified federal guidance.

    San Diego never shut them down except all the ranges that I know of ceased operations. We had at least one (indoor) range open back up but I'm not sure how they're managing use.
    I miss San Diego.. I lived in N. Coastal area, about a 10yr in Solana Beach and later Cardiff... Sadly the economic downturn finally caught up with us, and so now we are in Ventura county because that is where a job was.... honestly I don't like it here very much but what can you do?

    Yeah I know LA reopened them (which surprised me honestly) Ventura has not chosen to do so, so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    I would be much more concerned about what is going on in Hungary right now,
    Hungary, Philippines, Brazil, etc. It's like planting seeds for the next world war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post


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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    Hungary, Philippines, Brazil, etc. It's like planting seeds for the next world war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Yeah, but are we gonna be Goodies or Baddies?
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Yeah, but are we gonna be Goodies or Baddies?
    That's a perplexing question if one thinks hard on it.
    Speaking of declaring war on things, I like how the public received Mussolini at the end of the last one.

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    Who’s the current day Mussolini ?
    Round and round we go

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    I don't believe it is the governments job to provide safety and health for the individual. That is an individuals responsibility.
    \


    Buildings need to be built correctly for the safety of individuals who occupy them. Air and water need to be clean for the health of all individuals. The oversight of those needs is the governments job, those are just 3 basic ones but there are many others IMO.
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  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Who’s the current day Mussolini ?
    It's a tough choice with so many worthy candidates...
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  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by atarione View Post
    I miss San Diego.. I lived in N. Coastal area, about a 10yr in Solana Beach and later Cardiff...
    I didn't live in SD, but we had our boat there on harbor island. We always watch KUSI in the mornings even now here in Arizona. Always love san diego. It is it's own happy little world it seems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    Hungary, Philippines, Brazil, etc. It's like planting seeds for the next world war.

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    Maybe the seeds already been planted with the virus coming out of China.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    \


    Buildings need to be built correctly for the safety of individuals who occupy them. Air and water need to be clean for the health of all individuals. The oversight of those needs is the governments job, those are just 3 basic ones but there are many others IMO.
    Those are still protection for the nation or community, not an specific individual. What I'm talking about is when you give a specific person money or housing or a phone, it only benefits that individual and no one else. Like the Police have no duty to protect a specific individual, but their job is to protect the community

  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    Those are still protection for the nation or community, not an specific individual. What I'm talking about is when you give a specific person money or housing or a phone, it only benefits that individual and no one else. Like the Police have no duty to protect a specific individual, but their job is to protect the community


    We just disagree. For the police or fire dept. to protect the community they also have to protect individuals. I feel the same about broader government functions such as giving a specific individual money or housing.
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  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    Those are still protection for the nation or community, not an specific individual. What I'm talking about is when you give a specific person money or housing or a phone, it only benefits that individual and no one else. Like the Police have no duty to protect a specific individual, but their job is to protect the community
    I'm sorry BF, but this 'argument' is as full of holes as a swiss cheese... If you need me to elaborate, then it ain't worth it.
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  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt4x4 View Post
    Maybe the seeds already been planted with the virus coming out of China.
    Oh jeez!
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    We just disagree. For the police or fire dept. to protect the community they also have to protect individuals. I feel the same about broader government functions such as giving a specific individual money or housing.
    I guess you disagree with the supreme court too
    https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/p...o-protect.html

  151. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    I guess you disagree with the supreme court too

    On many issues, doesn't everyone?
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  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    On many issues, doesn't everyone?
    I know I do! Nowadays there are fewer SCOTUS decisions that I can get behind, since the impartiality of said is very much open to question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    On many issues, doesn't everyone?
    You might disagree with the SC, but that does not change that fact the police do not have a duty to protect the individual.

  154. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    On many issues, doesn't everyone?
    This is a public service announcement... with guitar!!!!!!

    Know your rights.... These are your rights
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  155. #155
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    Dont make me go all Jonathan Winters on this gas station.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    You might disagree with the SC, but that does not change that fact the police do not have a duty to protect the individual.



    I didn't read the article but even if cops don't have a constitutional "duty" to protect individuals they do it anyway on a daily basis. If a cop sees some thugs beating on someone they are most likely going to step in and protect that individual.

    Do you think they shouldn't?
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    Unless its break time or a more serious offence is happening, like an armed robbery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I didn't read the article but even if cops don't have a constitutional "duty" to protect individuals they do it anyway on a daily basis. If a cop sees some thugs beating on someone they are most likely going to step in and protect that individual.

    Do you think they shouldn't?
    No I'm saying they are not required to. If they stand there and do nothing, there is no legal recourse for the people getting the shit kicked out of them

    You are not understanding this basic legal concept. try reading the article

  159. #159
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    ^That is not true. That is a grim reading on that case and precedent cases before it. none of which believe is Stare Decisis but would need to look later. What the case said is that the interpretation of using 14th amendment (due process) the state does not have the obligation to 'protect' (read enforce restraining orders, etc) to meet the standard. It's somewhat nuanced and has esoteric legal arguments. Police are going to be governed by a lot of departmental, no less local/state conduct policy where the gross negligence of preventing a crime they watch happen before them would result in conduct and duty implications outside of the US constitution.
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    Just remember folks that when seconds matter, the police are only minutes away. Never mind there are some places without police.

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    An hour away out in the country. Have your firearms locked and loaded.

  162. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt4x4 View Post
    An hour away out in the country. Have your firearms locked and loaded.
    Hey if you're on the wrong block in the city that is ok, too.
    dang

  163. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    No I'm saying they are not required to. If they stand there and do nothing, there is no legal recourse for the people getting the shit kicked out of them

    You are not understanding this basic legal concept. try reading the article



    They are morally required to help, and most people realize that's also part of their job.

    You are arguing just for the sake of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    I'm not an epidemiologist so I'm not going to 2nd guess the recommendations of people who have devoted their life to the study and give guidance using the body of evidence.
    Every ones an "expert" though.

    LOL

  165. #165
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    In regards to the poor being poor, a lot of it is environmental. There are lots of poor inner city people who have never ventured beyond their X number of city blocks; largely because of a lock of opportunity to do so. While they may see a lot of "better" lives on television, they don't see it as something possible for themselves, just as I don't see myself becoming a CEO or anything close to that. And this is reinforced by their family so that is ultimately what the children are taught and who they become.

    My wife used to teach at a poorer school, not really all that poor and not inner city but one of the poorer areas of our county. She saw a distinctly different attitude from the parents there than she did at the private schools she also taught at. Kids who wouldn't even attempt to do their homework, even if attempting was about all they had to do (she teaches foreign language) and parents who didn't care. She was hired to replace a teacher who was basically run out of the school by more than likely false claims made by a few students.

    So what I am saying is that people are hugely influenced by how they are raised, and kids don't get to choose who raise them. And it is then a self perpetuating culture that is formed that is very hard to escape from and the more people who slip into this (the poor get poorer), the more our society as a whole will suffer. The more poor we create through less than livable wages, the more of this culture we also create and it is very, very hard to undo. I'm not saying it is impossible to escape from it, nor that people shouldn't strive to better their lives through hard work. But it is very difficult to escape your culture; hats off to those who do in these cases. People vary greatly, a lot aren't all that intelligent and/or if all they have known is what their family has done, few are going to have the drive and thought processes to do better.

    We used to have "entry level" type factory careers people could work at and make enough of a living to survive, supporting a family. Those have been replaced by fast food, Walmart, etc. Often these type positions keep workers shy on hours so they don't have to provide benefits. Even if a worker gets multiple part time jobs, they still don't get benefits and they don't make enough to really survive properly. Not everyone can go to college, due to time, costs, intelligence, etc. As a society, we need people who do low level jobs. Sorry, I am not cleaning toilets, too much of a germaphobe; again, hats off to the immigrants who clean my work office everyday for a whole lot less money than I am paid. Sadly, while I still have my job despite our company not bringing in any money at this time, these people more than likely are not working now.
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  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    In regards to the poor being poor, a lot of it is environmental. There are lots of poor inner city people who have never ventured beyond their X number of city blocks; largely because of a lock of opportunity to do so. While they may see a lot of "better" lives on television, they don't see it as something possible for themselves, just as I don't see myself becoming a CEO or anything close to that. And this is reinforced by their family so that is ultimately what the children are taught and who they become.

    My wife used to teach at a poorer school, not really all that poor and not inner city but one of the poorer areas of our county. She saw a distinctly different attitude from the parents there than she did at the private schools she also taught at. Kids who wouldn't even attempt to do their homework, even if attempting was about all they had to do (she teaches foreign language) and parents who didn't care. She was hired to replace a teacher who was basically run out of the school by more than likely false claims made by a few students.

    So what I am saying is that people are hugely influenced by how they are raised, and kids don't get to choose who raise them. And it is then a self perpetuating culture that is formed that is very hard to escape from and the more people who slip into this (the poor get poorer), the more our society as a whole will suffer. The more poor we create through less than livable wages, the more of this culture we also create and it is very, very hard to undo. I'm not saying it is impossible to escape from it, nor that people shouldn't strive to better their lives through hard work. But it is very difficult to escape your culture; hats off to those who do in these cases. People vary greatly, a lot aren't all that intelligent and/or if all they have known is what their family has done, few are going to have the drive and thought processes to do better.

    We used to have "entry level" type factory careers people could work at and make enough of a living to survive, supporting a family. Those have been replaced by fast food, Walmart, etc. Often these type positions keep workers shy on hours so they don't have to provide benefits. Even if a worker gets multiple part time jobs, they still don't get benefits and they don't make enough to really survive properly. Not everyone can go to college, due to time, costs, intelligence, etc. As a society, we need people who do low level jobs. Sorry, I am not cleaning toilets, too much of a germaphobe; again, hats off to the immigrants who clean my work office everyday for a whole lot less money than I am paid. Sadly, while I still have my job despite our company not bringing in any money at this time, these people more than likely are not working now.
    Sadly very true, but many will dismiss these people as not worth caring for if they cannot help themselves. Better education, paying teachers more and recognizing the often heroic work they are doing, will go far to changing this cycle of poverty and despair.
    College education should not be so emphasized, but vocational training should be. Our priorities are all screwy.
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  167. #167
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    What do you think "Normal" will look like when we get back to it?-1kfqzueg37s41.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    In regards to the poor being poor, a lot of it is environmental. There are lots of poor inner city people who have never ventured beyond their X number of city blocks; largely because of a lock of opportunity to do so. While they may see a lot of "better" lives on television, they don't see it as something possible for themselves, just as I don't see myself becoming a CEO or anything close to that. And this is reinforced by their family so that is ultimately what the children are taught and who they become.

    My wife used to teach at a poorer school, not really all that poor and not inner city but one of the poorer areas of our county. She saw a distinctly different attitude from the parents there than she did at the private schools she also taught at. Kids who wouldn't even attempt to do their homework, even if attempting was about all they had to do (she teaches foreign language) and parents who didn't care. She was hired to replace a teacher who was basically run out of the school by more than likely false claims made by a few students.

    So what I am saying is that people are hugely influenced by how they are raised, and kids don't get to choose who raise them. And it is then a self perpetuating culture that is formed that is very hard to escape from and the more people who slip into this (the poor get poorer), the more our society as a whole will suffer. The more poor we create through less than livable wages, the more of this culture we also create and it is very, very hard to undo. I'm not saying it is impossible to escape from it, nor that people shouldn't strive to better their lives through hard work. But it is very difficult to escape your culture; hats off to those who do in these cases. People vary greatly, a lot aren't all that intelligent and/or if all they have known is what their family has done, few are going to have the drive and thought processes to do better.

    We used to have "entry level" type factory careers people could work at and make enough of a living to survive, supporting a family. Those have been replaced by fast food, Walmart, etc. Often these type positions keep workers shy on hours so they don't have to provide benefits. Even if a worker gets multiple part time jobs, they still don't get benefits and they don't make enough to really survive properly. Not everyone can go to college, due to time, costs, intelligence, etc. As a society, we need people who do low level jobs. Sorry, I am not cleaning toilets, too much of a germaphobe; again, hats off to the immigrants who clean my work office everyday for a whole lot less money than I am paid. Sadly, while I still have my job despite our company not bringing in any money at this time, these people more than likely are not working now.

    Paying people that don't care about their kids more money isn't going to make them suddenly care about their kids. Its a cultural issue, not a money one. They aren't suddenly going to become responsible

    Are we going to raise everyones pay? If a burger flipper makes $8 and his manager makes $15, if you raise the burger flippers pay to $15, do you think the manager should get a raise too? How about his manager? The CEO?

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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    A strong stool is always desirable...


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    Oil prices back to normal
    Stock market back to normal

    Gas station fuel prices are so so low.
    A barrel is so cheap.

    It is not good

    Not good at all.

  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt4x4 View Post
    Oil prices back to normal
    Stock market back to normal

    Gas station fuel prices are so so low.
    A barrel is so cheap.

    It is not good

    Not good at all.
    Oil prices and the stock market are not back to normal

  172. #172
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    What worries me now is the potential for complacency. Many are now quite tired and frustrated with being cooped up, and might see some reports of the Lurg tailing off after its peak. It is only tailing off in places where it has already wrought havoc.
    There are plenty of places still relatively unaffected that are not even on lock down, and we are starting to see more talk of normality returning, and that maybe this thing ain't so bad after all.
    It is a seductive prospect.

    The reality is, however, that the only reason we are seeing some measure of the curve flattening is because we have been staying quite well closed off from one another, and the virus needs more people close by in order to be able to do its business. We need to continue to do this.

    Don't be fooled into complacency, the virus is still there and just as dangerous.

    Be careful, be distanced from each other, and keep it up. These actions are saving countless lives in this and other countries. Encourage those people who scoff at the thing to get with the program for the benefit of all, we will get back to normal, but it will take some time.

    Don't jump the gun!
    It's all Here. Now.

  173. #173
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    My insurance company sent an email that they're giving us a 20% credit for the next 2 months on our auto insurance premiums. Stay at home => fewer drivers on the road => fewer accidents & claims, yada yada.

    "Thousands of you may die…it is what it is." - Lord Farkwad

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  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    Paying people that don't care about their kids more money isn't going to make them suddenly care about their kids. Its a cultural issue, not a money one. They aren't suddenly going to become responsible

    Are we going to raise everyones pay? If a burger flipper makes $8 and his manager makes $15, if you raise the burger flippers pay to $15, do you think the manager should get a raise too? How about his manager? The CEO?
    When did I say paying people that don't care about their kids more money would suddenly make them care about there kids? Nowhere.

    Do some research about the history of average worker pay ratio to CEO pay in the US, and also compare it to other countries.

    Here's a little to get you started:

    Since 1978, and adjusted for inflation, American workers have seen an 11.2 percent increase in compensation. During that same period, CEO’s have seen a 937 percent increase in earnings. That salary growth is even 70 percent faster than the rise in the stock market, according to the Economic Policy Institute.

    CEO pay still remains high compared to that of “very high wage earners.” The average CEO in a large firm earns 5.33 times the annual earnings of those in the .1 percent.

    Though some argue that CEO pay is based on experience and what their role entails, the study finds that’s actually not the case.

    “CEOs are getting more because of their power to set pay, not because they are more productive or have special talent or have more education,” says the report. “Exorbitant CEO pay means that the fruits of economic growth are not going to ordinary workers, since the higher CEO pay does not reflect correspondingly higher output.”


    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/22/here...the-years.html

    And this study is interesting:

    The Highest-Paid CEOs Are The Worst Performers, New Study Says
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    Yeah I wish the per price barrel quadrupled and pump prices doubled.
    Get the industry and economy flowing again.
    Get the big money flowing, drilling.

  176. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    When did I say paying people that don't care about their kids more money would suddenly make them care about there kids? Nowhere.

    Do some research about the history of average worker pay ratio to CEO pay in the US, and also compare it to other countries.

    Here's a little to get you started:

    Since 1978, and adjusted for inflation, American workers have seen an 11.2 percent increase in compensation. During that same period, CEO’s have seen a 937 percent increase in earnings. That salary growth is even 70 percent faster than the rise in the stock market, according to the Economic Policy Institute.

    CEO pay still remains high compared to that of “very high wage earners.” The average CEO in a large firm earns 5.33 times the annual earnings of those in the .1 percent.

    Though some argue that CEO pay is based on experience and what their role entails, the study finds that’s actually not the case.

    “CEOs are getting more because of their power to set pay, not because they are more productive or have special talent or have more education,” says the report. “Exorbitant CEO pay means that the fruits of economic growth are not going to ordinary workers, since the higher CEO pay does not reflect correspondingly higher output.”


    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/22/here...the-years.html

    And this study is interesting:

    The Highest-Paid CEOs Are The Worst Performers, New Study Says
    I don't care that CEO pay has out paced their workers. That is between the company, the workers and shareholder. They pay what they think the CEO and workers are worth.

  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    I don't care that CEO pay has out paced their workers. That is between the company, the workers and shareholder. They pay what they think the CEO and workers are worth.
    This is why workers need to engage in collective bargaining. Sure other people could do the low end, menial tasks, but more than one person can take the place of CEO, successfully, too. What does it mean to make millions or billions while the people make that happen for you can't make rent? It means you played them for chumps.

    Having worked shit jobs all through college (40 ish hours per week, plus school and research, do like 2-2.5 full time jobs) I'll say those jobs taught me almost nothing I use at my current job. Work ethic, scheduling, thinking creatively/inventively, building relationships, and so on are all skills I learned doing things like band in high school (sounds silly, but if you want to be good you have to put in time and effort), in making good grades in college, or jobs since then. Work during college was like one big waste of time that let me pay for part of tuition, gas, and a date with my girl, but where I was constantly given more work while being told I wasn't ever going to get more pay (which is common if you work harder than other people at your crappy job). Many folks working at these jobs are giving it their best and doing good work, and for many of those people it won't amount to anything because we don't live in the mythical, logical meritocracy that some believe we do where quality labor = better pay. This is largely confounded with qualitative and subjective factors that affect "hireability" or perception of work done vs quality. Shit, it's still true that people are reluctant to hire folks with less Anglo sounding names. The hell does anyone care if your name is "Tammy" or "Tamika" if you do good work? Well, some people really do care.

    I'll make this concession, in grad school when I taught, I could always pick out people who had either never had a job before or just had never had drive or passion to commit themselves to anything. Showed to labs late, always wanted to be told exactly what to study...you know the type. However these skills could've been built upon outside of some crappy job, where nobody respects you, because we're damn near trained to have a complete lack of respect for people with certain jobs in this society.
    dang

  178. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    I don't care that CEO pay has out paced their workers. That is between the company, the workers and shareholder. They pay what they think the CEO and workers are worth.
    Yeah, cos I hear that all the time... the board asking their workers to vote on whether to give their execs such huge pay rises at the expense of their own... Pigs are flying out my ass right now. The disparity is simply immoral. If people want to keep their jobs in today's corporate America, they shut their mouths and don't question the status quo that allows this to continue. I don't know what world you live in BF, but it don't look too purty from where I stand!
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Yeah, cos I hear that all the time... the board asking their workers to vote on whether to give their execs such huge pay rises at the expense of their own... Pigs are flying out my ass right now. The disparity is simply immoral. If people want to keep their jobs in today's corporate America, they shut their mouths and don't question the status quo that allows this to continue. I don't know what world you live in BF, but it don't look too purty from where I stand!
    If the workers don't like how much the execs are making, then they don't have to work there. No one is forced to take a job.

    What is immoral is someone other than the employer and employee agreeing on the wages.

    I live in a world where I don't demand others support me. A world where I make my way through it, not take. I am not owed anything, nor do I owe anyone else. Of course my world scares you, because self reliance scares you.

  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    If the workers don't like how much the execs are making, then they don't have to work there. No one is forced to take a job.

    What is immoral is someone other than the employer and employee agreeing on the wages.

    I live in a world where I don't demand others support me. A world where I make my way through it, not take. I am not owed anything, nor do I owe anyone else. Of course my world scares you, because self reliance scares you.
    ha! you know absolutely nothing about me or my world. I am not sure you know anything much about the so called 'real world' either.
    It's all Here. Now.

  181. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    ha! you know absolutely nothing about me or my world. I am not sure you know anything much about the so called 'real world' either.
    I know exactly the type of person you are. You want others to provide for you. You want to take from the rich because the poor deserve the money more than the person that made it.

  182. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    I know exactly the type of person you are. You want others to provide for you. You want to take from the rich because the poor deserve the money more than the person that made it.
    Whatever you say. Carry on.
    It's all Here. Now.

  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    If the workers don't like how much the execs are making, then they don't have to work there. No one is forced to take a job.

    What is immoral is someone other than the employer and employee agreeing on the wages.

    I live in a world where I don't demand others support me. A world where I make my way through it, not take. I am not owed anything, nor do I owe anyone else. Of course my world scares you, because self reliance scares you.
    And you probably think child labor laws are "immoral", OSHA regulations are "immoral", etc. How dare the government helps protect citizens, that should all be between the employer and the employee.

    I don't demand others support me. But I do expect some protection for the citizens to be in place in a society so that it functions properly. Capitalism is great but there are issues with it, just like with any system. But your solution to the social unrest that develops is probably to build more prisons and incarcerate more people, all the while complaining about having to pay taxes. As a society, we're going to pay for it all in one form or another.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    And you probably think child labor laws are "immoral", OSHA regulations are "immoral", etc. How dare the government helps protect citizens, that should all be between the employer and the employee.

    I don't demand others support me. But I do expect some protection for the citizens to be in place in a society so that it functions properly. Capitalism is great but there are issues with it, just like with any system. But your solution to the social unrest that develops is probably to build more prisons and incarcerate more people, all the while complaining about having to pay taxes. As a society, we're going to pay for it all in one form or another.
    Minor can't enter to contracts, which is what you agree to when you work. But if a kid wants to open a lemonade stand, I'm all for it. You would be the person complaining to the government to shut them down because they didn't get a health inspection first

    My solution to civil unrest is to let society figure it out until there are violations of peoples rights. You would be asking the government to violate people rights in the name of safety and security.

  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    I know exactly the type of person you are. You want others to provide for you. You want to take from the rich because the poor deserve the money more than the person that made it.
    Look, I apologize for being tetchy with you, but you struck a chord. I am not going to give you my life story, but it has not involved getting handouts from anyone. I clawed my way out of abject poverty in London as a teenager, and made my way to being one of the most successful in my field in the world. So please do not accuse me of being what you think I am, it ain't true.
    As for the subject, I realize I may not change your views, and I might have shared them once in my younger days, but now I see that a more compassionate way is so much healthier. Think about the analogy of a village in poverty struck Africa somewhere. You can give them all the handouts in the world, but it won't really change things. They just learn to live on handouts, and in times of adversity, they will be as badly off as before.
    if you give them the means to dig a well, and tools to cultivate food, they will most likely be a whole lot better off in the long run.
    Now take that analogy into our lives and our world. Adversity and poverty are very real for all too many in this so called First World country, and others too. If you give people the help they need to stand on their own feet again, they most likely will, as has been shown in programs in several other countries.
    We achieve a better quality of life for more by investing in better education, by elevating teachers to greater importance in this world, pay them more. Then we need to address the mental health issues so prevalent in this country by investing in that too. That is just for starters. There is much more that can be done.
    I think you do tend to think of a great portion of our population as beyond hope, but I very much believe that with the right care and attention, people much prefer to stand on their own 2 feet with a measure of dignity.
    It's all Here. Now.

  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    My solution to civil unrest is to let society figure it out until there are violations of peoples rights. You would be asking the government to violate people rights in the name of safety and security.
    This is a test. This is only a test.
    "Thousands of you may die…it is what it is." - Lord Farkwad

    Real eyes realize real lies.

  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Look, I apologize for being tetchy with you, but you struck a chord. I am not going to give you my life story, but it has not involved getting handouts from anyone. I clawed my way out of abject poverty in London as a teenager, and made my way to being one of the most successful in my field in the world. So please do not accuse me of being what you think I am, it ain't true.
    As for the subject, I realize I may not change your views, and I might have shared them once in my younger days, but now I see that a more compassionate way is so much healthier. Think about the analogy of a village in poverty struck Africa somewhere. You can give them all the handouts in the world, but it won't really change things. They just learn to live on handouts, and in times of adversity, they will be as badly off as before.
    if you give them the means to dig a well, and tools to cultivate food, they will most likely be a whole lot better off in the long run.
    Now take that analogy into our lives and our world. Adversity and poverty are very real for all too many in this so called First World country, and others too. If you give people the help they need to stand on their own feet again, they most likely will, as has been shown in programs in several other countries.
    We achieve a better quality of life for more by investing in better education, by elevating teachers to greater importance in this world, pay them more. Then we need to address the mental health issues so prevalent in this country by investing in that too. That is just for starters. There is much more that can be done.
    I think you do tend to think of a great portion of our population as beyond hope, but I very much believe that with the right care and attention, people much prefer to stand on their own 2 feet with a measure of dignity.
    Well said. It's not a black (government handling out freebies to the lazy and violating people's rights) and white (doing nothing and letting "society figure it out" (whatever that means) matter.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  188. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    Minor can't enter to contracts, which is what you agree to when you work. But if a kid wants to open a lemonade stand, I'm all for it. You would be the person complaining to the government to shut them down because they didn't get a health inspection first
    You always see that kind of story in the news.
    - There is always rats in society, dirty rotten pathetic rats. Its a shame society has come to that in this day in age, calling in some child and their lemonade stand. Just leave them be.

  189. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    This is a public service announcement... with guitar!!!!!!

    Know your rights.... These are your rights
    It has been suggested
    In some quarters that this is not enough!
    Well..............................
    Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

  190. #190
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    These quoted posts are a reminder of why I put BF on my ignore list...

  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    It has been suggested
    In some quarters that this is not enough!
    Well..............................
    Unless you're dumb enough to actually try it....

  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewalk View Post
    These quoted posts are a reminder of why I put BF on my ignore list...
    It awesome that you still have to read my stuff when people quote me.

  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    It awesome that you still have to read my stuff when people quote me.
    Ain’t it though.....
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    I just love it when the light shines on their fake eyebrows.

    I cannot STAND fake, drawn-in, tattooed, whatever, eyebrows.
    rOCktoberfest 2015 pt I here
    rOCktoberfest 2015 pt II here

  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    Ain’t it though.....
    Y’all are cute, the 2 of you, all chummy and shit.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  196. #196
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    Wearing facemasks will become normal I guess.

  197. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    My insurance company sent an email that they're giving us a 20% credit for the next 2 months on our auto insurance premiums. Stay at home => fewer drivers on the road => fewer accidents & claims, yada yada.

    I'm assuming no mention of bicycles was in that offer. I which case, I wouldn't bring it to their attention.
    Just call me Ray

  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    I just love it when the light shines on their fake eyebrows.

    I cannot STAND fake, drawn-in, tattooed, whatever, eyebrows.
    Isn't that a female asian thing with the tattoo eyebrows?

    But I know what you are saying, because sometimes you see some funky eyebrows that look freakish that are natural.

    Also is that a mole and a booger? no no thats facial studs. Split tongue is just freaky. Bridge of the nose, pig ring inside the nostril between two passages, cheek stud, lip rig, tongue ring.

    What do you think "Normal" will look like when we get back to it?-r3vuhg1ccf4d4ultjgwc.jpg

  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    If the price is the same then it is the seller who is paying the fee through reduced profit. By paying cash you paying a greater profit to the seller, which may or may not be something you want to do
    Almost every business in town offers a 3% discount for cash. I think it will be the same. Us people who work hard will continue to. Those who make poor decisions with money will continue to and the free shit army will continue to leach off the system.
    Ripping trails and tipping ales

  200. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt4x4 View Post

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I want that truck.
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