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  1. #1
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    Suggestion for a personal defense weapon ?

    Hey, I'd like to get a few insights on what would be the best buy for my gf on a personal defense weapon for close range.

    First I'd like to say I'm no where near expert in firearms and only know a little, so feel free to correct me.

    She lives in the country and work often till 11:30pm so she drives a lot at night and such. She'd like to keep something like a handgun or compact shotgun in her car, just in case, coz **** happens everywhere.

    Plus she likes to shoot guns and would take it to the range often. And she's pretty good at shooting.

    I was think about a revolver, like a .38 or such, or a sub-compact shotgun. Just enough power to take down any sort of assault at close range, like if a freak tries to force open the door of her car, that she can bust his nuts trough the window or door easy. I already shot both a 357 and 44 mag, but I guess that's overkill. I know revolvers to be very reliable, easy and safe to operate and rather inexpensive, but they're also restricted weapons in many areas. A .45 pistol could kick some serious ass, but might not be the best option regarding price and handling/storing.

    Another thought was a compact shotgun, something like a saw-off barrel and short cross. Idk, maybe watched too many movies lol.

    Trying to keep it low cost though. No need of fancy ass gadgets like flashlight or laser grip.
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  2. #2
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    Glock 26. 10 rounds of 9x19, just over a pound and half loaded.

    GLOCK

  3. #3
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    interesting topic... from the historical perspective ww1 trench warfare was the crucible for innovative personnel weapons, and some old time classics...

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  4. #4
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    Few things,
    First find out what's legal in your area.
    What ever weapon you get I highly recommend getting some form of training as to how to use it. A self defense weapon can easily be turned into the weapon that kills you or hurts someone you care about without knowing how to use, maintain, and employ under stress.

    I have many guns and lot of training from my infantry Marine background and civilian weapons training.
    An AR15 type weapon is nice for home and trunk but probably pushing it as far as cost and size and needed user ability.

    I personally like a glock 19. 9mm 15 rounds, cheap, small, simple, reliable if you get an older gen 2 or pre'09 gen3. Seriously cannot be beat it for what your intended use is. New glocks, gen4 and late manufacture gen3s have some problems. My new gen3 throws spent backcasings at my face 5 outa 10 times. Burns and cuts on my face. But an older glock is THE BEST out of the box.

    Another option is a smith and Wesson m&p9 compact. 12 rounds, way more comfortable in hand then the glock. Especially for woman shooters. You can swap back straps to get a good fit.
    Also I recommend 9mm period. Newer shooters and those who don't shoot very often and women usually handle the recoil of a 9mm much better than bigger calibers. Also you get a higher capacity. Anything smaller than 9mm and your really pushing it as far as effectiveness. Make sure to get self defense ammo not target ammo for carrying.

    You said no lights. Well I'll tell you that a light is very important. A light can save your life as well as Id a target to confirm it is a threat. Also blinding an attacker may be all you need. No one wants I have to kill someone. I recommend surefire for flashlights. Minimum of 170 lumen.
    Also a good holster or retention system. Remember quality costs.

    Most importantly is training. If you tell me where your located I could probably track down some decent instructors in your area. Id be cautious of local gun stores. Many times they dont have your best interest in mind unfortunately. They will sell you what they have in stock or want to move out. Being that the guns purpose is self defense avoid Tarus, ruger, NEW siggs, You could end up regretting those purchases...
    Any questions feel free to PM me. Id be more than happy to help.
    Last edited by Jaysop; 08-11-2012 at 08:17 PM.

  5. #5
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    ^^^^^^^^Definitely listen to him about the training.


    Sig Sauer P250 sub compact .40 cal is what I use. It's a double action semi auto meaning the action is similar to a revolver in that the trigger pull draws the hammer back then releases it. The double action makes it a safe and efficient gun to carry concealed because the long trigger pull makes it nearly impossible to discharge accidentally and there is no safety to fumble with when you are scared sh1tless and fumbling for your gun. It's small enough to conceal, big enough caliber to do the job with only one hit and easy to operate. You can also buy a kit to change it between 9mm, .40 cal, and .45 cal. My wife is a small woman and she shoots it with no problems.

  6. #6
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    Bear spray. Then she won't be calling you at 12:00 to help dispose of the body.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Pitueee View Post
    Bear spray. Then she won't be calling you at 12:00 to help dispose of the body.
    If you have the proper license you don't have to dispose of anything. The police and the coroner take care of that for you while you get to go home.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbnoobadam View Post
    If you have the proper license you don't have to dispose of anything. The police and the coroner take care of that for you while you get to go home.

  9. #9
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    Thanks guys. I was thinking more of something to leave in the car, either between driver's seat and center console or in the glove box. No carrying.

    She lives in PA, close to Harrisburg and from what I saw at the local public gun range, pretty much anything is legal around there hehe. There was a few guys shooting military calibers along with high powered rifles. I guess you just need the right licenses. Training is a must of course.

    Another thing I was wondering is possible ear damage from firing inside a car... Should I be worried about that or is it not that bad once in a while ?

    And how much are we talking for say a Glock or S&W 9mm with light ?
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  10. #10
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    Try this....................


    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/u0-oinyjsk0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  11. #11
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    If it's home defense I'd suggest a shotgun. 20g or if she can handle it, a 12g. Nothing better than putting a couple loads of buckshot into a bad guy.

    If a handgun is what you're after, skip the 9mm and go .40 cal. Better stopping power but still easy to shoot. You can get a sub-compact or compact Glock, they run in the $500's generally and are accurate, easy to shoot, tough as nails.

  12. #12
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    A lot of people leave their guns in the car, but that could be a problem. If your car in broken into or stolen. Then your missing a concealable weapon. Also check local law regarding storing guns in cars. Thats a legal gray area at times.

    Another problem with storing in the car especially in that area, first thing that comes to mind is how much of a slob I am and Id spill something on it. It would need to be fully cleaned and cared for if its meant to protect you when you least expect it. She needs to know that gun ownership is a responsibility and she needs to maintain the weapon and skill for her own sake.

    For a Glock or S&W MSRP is around $500. But can be had cheaper from pawn shops, online auctions, trade ins at gun shops ect. The light I run is a Surefire x300, about $200. A streamlight TLR1 is a cheaper alternative at about $90. These are weapon mounted lights. Cheaper on ebay.
    Hand helds are cheaper and can more easily be used for roadside emergency and so on, but harder to employ in a tactical situation.

    Id recommend purse carry but I know carrying isn't for everyone. She could mount a nice Kydex holster in her car for about $60. Covers the trigger and keeps the gun secure.

    As for hearing damage. Yes It can happen. I used to hunt as a teen and fired high power rifles without ear pro. A shot or two wont do much damage. Habitual lack of ear pro will screw you up. My ears constantly ring no matter what. Im also a Machine Gunner by trade

    People fire guns off in houses which is worse and the ringing goes away. Also some people experience audible exclusion which under stress (attack or combat) your hearing is never effected and you never hear the shots. Many door kickers and cops have claimed this.

    Practice shooting is like bike riding, throw you PPE on. (person protective equipment) Eye pro ear pro and you'll be fine.

    Ill get back to you on the training, ill ask on another forum thats pretty professional in terms of MIL Law enforcement training. Someone will know someone in that area that wont break the bank.

  13. #13
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    Look into the laws in that area and get some training. You'll be able to ask a licensed instructor all the questions you can possibly think of.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    If it's home defense I'd suggest a shotgun. 20g or if she can handle it, a 12g. Nothing better than putting a couple loads of buckshot into a bad guy.

    If a handgun is what you're after, skip the 9mm and go .40 cal. Better stopping power but still easy to shoot. You can get a sub-compact or compact Glock, they run in the $500's generally and are accurate, easy to shoot, tough as nails.
    A .40 could be pretty snappy for a woman or inexperienced shooter. A glock 23 is snappy for me. A good personal defense round doesn't loose anything to a .40 in terms of stopping a threat.





    BTW mtbnoobadam, is your avatar bubbles?

  15. #15
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    We were thinking more around the $300 range.

    The handgun would be to leave in the car as she's driving home every night, like right now as we speak, in the country and you never know when **** can happen.

    She already has 3 rifles at home, a tiny 22 bolt action, another 22 semi auto pump with scope, and a .223 bolt action with internal 5 rounds chamber and scope. However they are not loaded and usually locked down. I guess having a shotgun upstairs in a safe with code-padlock instead of key, already loaded, just in case could be useful, but I'm not a fan of easy access guns at home and she can't shoot a 12g easy at all. Maybe a smaller caliber and lightweight/compact shotgun will help ?

    Oh, and I can easily shoot the 44mag. Maybe not one hand though, but I can put a round in without problem at 15 yards.
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaysop View Post
    BTW mtbnoobadam, is your avatar bubbles?
    yup

  17. #17
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    A police trade in or used Glock or S&W can be had at the price range fairly commonly.
    A shotgun in a car would be very hard to manipulate should the need arise.
    What you could do is go to a local range and rent a few handguns and see how they handle for her.
    But do your homework before you purchase as to how it holds up as a self defense weapon in regards to reliability.

  18. #18
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    Really?, is this bait?
    Think Nubster gave some great advice. Wouldn't leave it in the car, especially in an area where you're considering a gun for safety, very bad idea. Plus why have it if it's in the car? Isn't it better, not to mention more responsible to just carry?.
    Round and round we go

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by David C View Post
    Oh, and I can easily shoot the 44mag. Maybe not one hand though, but I can put a round in without problem at 15 yards.
    In a high stress situation, aiming goes out the window. Being able to put one in at 15 yards really won't do much good when you are confronted in a real life shooting situation. Watch some police shootout videos and you'll see what I'm talking about. I guarantee any of those cops could shoot the center out of a paper target on the range even out to 25 yards, but when face to face with someone trying to kill you, even within a few yards, multiple shots are fired and nothing gets hit. In all honesty, in the car, I'd suggest a bigass can of pepper spray, at least as a first line defense, and in the house, a shotgun loaded with buckshot.

  20. #20
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    I would never leave a loaded gun
    in a car, bad idea.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Really?, is this bait?
    Think Nubster gave some great advice. Wouldn't leave it in the car, especially in an area where you're considering a gun for safety, very bad idea. Plus why have it if it's in the car? Isn't it better, not to mention more responsible to just carry?.
    Coz she works in a hospital/healthcare center

    The whole idea is to leave it in the car, coz that's pretty much the only place where she could potentially have to use it. She just go straight to her car when she's done working and drive all the way back home which is in a garage, so it's more like if she's stopped at a red light and for some reason a freak park right in front of her and tries to assault her idk. She's driving 20 minutes every night in the country and you never know what can happen. I would not be worried about leaving it in the car as if someone breaks in, he's most likely to either stole the car or grab a few quick things.

    And I'm just asking your opinion. Maybe she's just better with no guns at all, idk
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  22. #22
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    To Nubster :

    I do not own a gun. What I was saying is I can handle a 44 mag at the range. I never tried shooting under pressure, so I can't really comment on my performance under stress, but one thing I know I'd rather not fire a shot than risk to harm someone that does not need to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  23. #23
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    Id say your best bet would be unloading and keeping it in some kind of lock box hidden and secured to the car when its unattended. But then your just going to be opening your wallet up wider. But then its gota come in and out requiring some hassle that will eventually lead to complacency.

    I could see really wanting something if she were to get stuck and stranded in certain desolate places.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaysop View Post
    I could see really wanting something if she were to get stuck and stranded in certain desolate places.
    That's the point. Maybe a gun isn't the best option either, but that's always useful.
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

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    Oh, and out of curiosity, do anyone feels weird when they see someone that carry a handgun openly in a public place ? I know there is some areas where you can do it once you get the proper licenses, but every time I see someone with a gun on his belt, even just at the shooting range, I have a bad feeling about that. Even more since the guy is shooting a 7.62mm cal. military looking rifle and that the pistol range is on another field... Like if he was more worried about his personal safety than actually using the revolver at the shooting range...
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

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    Unless something happened that spooked you or your girl, IMO, a 20 minute commute through the country is not worth shelling out the money for a gun to leave in your car, unless she plans to spotlight deer or something. I still stand by my recommendation of pepper spray in the car, gun at home. Chances of a home invasion are much greater than needing a weapon at a stoplight. If something happens at a stoplight, how hard is it to hit the gas and drive away? Someone approaches the car, hose them down and drive away.


  27. #27
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    The NRA teaches that if you're going to use a semi-auto for self-defense, a second clip in-the-ready is mandatory. The only reliable way to clear a jam is to drop the clip, cycle the action, insert a new clip and cycle the action. Cops are trained to do this procedure, the NRA claims anyone using a semi-auto needs to be able to do it.

    Revolvers don't jam, if a round misfires, you pull the trigger again and another round is fired. If you wife/gf isn't a gun enthusiast, it can be hard to train them not to limp-wrist a semi-auto and keep from jamming it. A revolver doesn't take much technical knowledge, the new user can concentrate on aiming and pulling the trigger. A nice 5 shot 38 snub nose fits in a purse, cost ~$300 for a stainless Ruger. It'll last forever with almost no cost/maintenance and never let you down.

    Most confrontations end after the gun is displayed. Some folks load one round of snake shot and the next 4 rounds are Talons. They prefer a non-lethal warning shot before a certain fatal round is discharged. Good for dog protection too.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by pursuiter View Post
    Some folks load one round of snake shot and the next 4 rounds are Talons. They prefer a non-lethal warning shot before a certain fatal round is discharged. Good for dog protection too.
    IMO this is not good. If you are going to point a gun at someone and pull the trigger, there should be no wounding or warning shot. You shoot to stop the threat which means you are basically shooting to kill, whether you succeed or not, it doesn't matter as long as the threat stops. You do NOT shoot to wound or scare. If you're not willing to kill someone, you shouldn't be carrying a gun for self defense.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    IMO this is not good...you shouldn't be carrying a gun for self defense.
    Interested to know why you recommend a 40cal compact auto to a noob. That's a lot of gun for a female esp if she's on the smaller side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    IMO this is not good. If you are going to point a gun at someone and pull the trigger, there should be no wounding or warning shot. You shoot to stop the threat which means you are basically shooting to kill, whether you succeed or not, it doesn't matter as long as the threat stops. You do NOT shoot to wound or scare. If you're not willing to kill someone, you shouldn't be carrying a gun for self defense.
    I agree. Shooting to wound someone is illegal in CT.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    IMO this is not good. If you are going to point a gun at someone and pull the trigger, there should be no wounding or warning shot. You shoot to stop the threat which means you are basically shooting to kill, whether you succeed or not, it doesn't matter as long as the threat stops. You do NOT shoot to wound or scare. If you're not willing to kill someone, you shouldn't be carrying a gun for self defense.
    Ok, now I hear the bin calling. If we're just putting out our "IMO", in mine, you can fire a warning shot and shoot to wound if stopping the threat is your goal, you can even just pull the gun out and in most cases that ends it, the threat that is. If you carry a gun and only look to kill people you are threatened by, you shouldn't carry a gun. The pepper spray, if you're gonna leave it in the car, is much more responsible, but again, in the car?
    Round and round we go

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by pursuiter View Post
    Interested to know why you recommend a 40cal compact auto to a noob. That's a lot of gun for a female esp if she's on the smaller side.
    A .40 cal semi auto is going to have equal or less recoil than the 38 snub nose you recommended. Semi autos unitilize the recoil to cycle the rounds thus taking away from the recoil transferred to your hand. FWIW my wife is 5'1" 110lbs and she shoots the hell outta my .40 cal.

  34. #34
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    +1 on the pepper/stun devices. And practice practice practice

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    In a high stress situation, aiming goes out the window. Being able to put one in at 15 yards really won't do much good when you are confronted in a real life shooting situation. Watch some police shootout videos and you'll see what I'm talking about. I guarantee any of those cops could shoot the center out of a paper target on the range even out to 25 yards, but when face to face with someone trying to kill you, even within a few yards, multiple shots are fired and nothing gets hit.
    In my experience this is true for some not for others. As a hunting guide here in Alaska I've been in some tight situations with big Brown bears, I've had clients freeze up and become almost immobile. I've had others stay loose and make the shot perfectly.

    How does she deal with stress? That should make a big difference in a life or death situation.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by David C View Post
    Hey, I'd like to get a few insights on what would be the best buy for my gf on a personal defense weapon for close range.

    First I'd like to say I'm no where near expert in firearms and only know a little, so feel free to correct me.

    She lives in the country and work often till 11:30pm so she drives a lot at night and such. She'd like to keep something like a handgun or compact shotgun in her car, just in case, coz **** happens everywhere.

    Plus she likes to shoot guns and would take it to the range often. And she's pretty good at shooting.

    I was think about a revolver, like a .38 or such, or a sub-compact shotgun. Just enough power to take down any sort of assault at close range, like if a freak tries to force open the door of her car, that she can bust his nuts trough the window or door easy. I already shot both a 357 and 44 mag, but I guess that's overkill. I know revolvers to be very reliable, easy and safe to operate and rather inexpensive, but they're also restricted weapons in many areas. A .45 pistol could kick some serious ass, but might not be the best option regarding price and handling/storing.

    Another thought was a compact shotgun, something like a saw-off barrel and short cross. Idk, maybe watched too many movies lol.

    Trying to keep it low cost though. No need of fancy ass gadgets like flashlight or laser grip.




    The hospital that my wife works at has hospital security escort employee's to their vehicles after dark when they feel the need for extra precautions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David C View Post
    Oh, and out of curiosity, do anyone feels weird when they see someone that carry a handgun openly in a public place ? I know there is some areas where you can do it once you get the proper licenses, but every time I see someone with a gun on his belt,
    Not at all. But I live in Alaska and people open carry all the time here, cops are used to it and unlike California open carry in Alaska is loaded. He'll there is no ccw licensing here, you just buy a gun and carry it.

  38. #38
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    Just saw this and thought it would fit here perfectly
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    Quote Originally Posted by pursuiter View Post
    The NRA teaches that if you're going to use a semi-auto for self-defense, a second clip in-the-ready is mandatory. The only reliable way to clear a jam is to drop the clip, cycle the action, insert a new clip and cycle the action. Cops are trained to do this procedure, the NRA claims anyone using a semi-auto needs to be able to do it.

    Revolvers don't jam, if a round misfires, you pull the trigger again and another round is fired. If you wife/gf isn't a gun enthusiast, it can be hard to train them not to limp-wrist a semi-auto and keep from jamming it. A revolver doesn't take much technical knowledge, the new user can concentrate on aiming and pulling the trigger. A nice 5 shot 38 snub nose fits in a purse, cost ~$300 for a stainless Ruger. It'll last forever with almost no cost/maintenance and never let you down.

    Most confrontations end after the gun is displayed. Some folks load one round of snake shot and the next 4 rounds are Talons. They prefer a non-lethal warning shot before a certain fatal round is discharged. Good for dog protection too.
    That's why I was leaning more towards a revolver than semi-auto pistol. Having shot a semi-auto 9mm Browning, a 357mag single action (target shooting model, with single round loading/unloading) and a 44mag double-action, I found the 357 to actually be easier and safer to operate, along with better accuracy and better handling of the recoil. I just hated shooting the semi-auto pistol because of the sensible trigger (have to say it was a second war Canadian infantry handgun) and that it is not safe to dispose of in a high stress situation where you just shot someone and the gun is ready to fire again with a little trigger pressure. Though the pistol was very good on follow-up shots and easy to operate at the range. I think a revolver will be a lot safer too regarding disposal of the firearm after use since you don't have to worry about the trigger and safety, just leave it and it's ok. And yes, learning to cycle a pistol is also important. Even more is under stress I had trouble inserting the spare clip in fast enough to be considered acceptable in a gun fight. And I doubt she'll be able to do better than me.

    And what I was thinking about the use of the gun in the car was in case she cannot drive away for some reason, at least she can always take down an opponent from inside her car, by shooting trough the window/windshield or even trough the driver's door. Using Armor piercing rounds and having a spare clip too. But also to leave a bear spray just on the center console as first resort like if someone breaks the window or open the door. And it's also a gun that we'd like to take to the range whenever possible coz we both love shooting.

    Regarding calibers, is a 357mag overkill ?
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pursuiter View Post
    Interested to know why you recommend a 40cal compact auto to a noob. That's a lot of gun for a female esp if she's on the smaller side.
    Because I know several women that can handle a .40 with no issues. I don't know how big the OP's girl is. For all I know, she's more man than I am. I also know that a couple of the girls that can shoot a .40 are on the small side.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Ok, now I hear the bin calling. If we're just putting out our "IMO", in mine, you can fire a warning shot and shoot to wound if stopping the threat is your goal, you can even just pull the gun out and in most cases that ends it, the threat that is. If you carry a gun and only look to kill people you are threatened by, you shouldn't carry a gun. The pepper spray, if you're gonna leave it in the car, is much more responsible, but again, in the car?
    Shoot to wound and you are creating a situation that may get you killed. A wounded person can still take you out. You shoot to stop the threat which means shooting center mass. That's why I say you have to be willing to kill someone. I didn't say that you carry a gun ONLY to go around killing people. You should only carry a gun for protection if you are WILLING to kill someone, because in my training and experience, simply wounding someone isn't good enough. As far as I am concern, 90% of people that carry guns shouldn't because they have no idea how to use the gun they carry and most have even less clue how to deploy their gun in a way to effectively protect themselves or the people around them, and end up being more of a danger to themselves and others.

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    357 isn't overkill especially since it gives you the flexibility to shoot .38's.

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    The NRA's position on semi-autos is clear, people think it won't happen to them. In real life, jams from limp wristing a semi-auto under pressure is very real. A second clip is the only way to be sure. Or you can carry a revolver.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    Shoot to wound and you are creating a situation that may get you killed. A wounded person can still take you out. You shoot to stop the threat which means shooting center mass. That's why I say you have to be willing to kill someone. I didn't say that you carry a gun ONLY to go around killing people. You should only carry a gun for protection if you are WILLING to kill someone, because in my training and experience, simply wounding someone isn't good enough. As far as I am concern, 90% of people that carry guns shouldn't because they have no idea how to use the gun they carry and most have even less clue how to deploy their gun in a way to effectively protect themselves or the people around them, and end up being more of a danger to themselves and others.
    So true.

    If your in a situation where you feel you'd need to carry a gun and in a situation where you are going to take it out of concealment, its a situation where your life or life's of loved ones are in danger.
    Personally if someone comes in my home I wont even confront them until I can engage them. Then they'd get one warning before I shoot to kill, After using a light to confirm they are a threat. It may sound drastic...
    "Thats not worth killing someone over" Well whats YOUR life worth to you? Or your child's? No one is breaking into my house to fold my laundry or clean my bathroom.
    Shooting to wound irresponsible. I have no problem killing someone to protect my wife, son or myself. If they are armed or intend to harm you you have not stopped the threat. only slowed it. A warning shot is just asking for liability of hitting some one or something else. People who think they are going to just pump a shotgun in a home invasion don't realize that when they do that they are also telling the invader where you are and what your armed with. That may be an issue.
    For anyone who doubts this just talk to any veteran law enforcement officer. I'm sure they'd agree. I'm no gun nut, just aware of the dark sides of humanity.

    A gun isn't for everyone though and I understand that. I once saw a canister of pepper spray that also let out a really loud blow horn sound as well. Thats pretty effective. But beware that pepper spray can just as easily effect you as the attacker. Wind or confined spaces. And if you don't know pepper spray seriously sucks!!! Some guys sprayed it in a elevator I was in once.

    What about a good taser? I'm sure those hurt.

    A revolver has a much shorter learning curve, Cheaper as well. A good S&W Jframe would serve you well. Im not a fan of revolvers because I learned on a 1911 with a really nice trigger and ruined revolvers for myself. New shooters should have no problem.

    As for the guy who had a pistol on his side at the range. I do that as well. Its not for protection. Its just because that's where it goes. I got to the range shooting AR15s. Not because I wana feel badass. Its just a hobby ive enjoyed all my life.
    Don't generalize all gun owners and enthusiast as retarded Gun crazy Ranger wanabees. Not all people on bikes are hipsters Being concerned with your well being is a smart move.

    Also I know a few women who can handle a .40, its just a heaver than needed caliber.

    As for training this place was recommended for pistol training.
    General Defensive Handgun Training

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    Nobody has mentioned the most important thing your
    GF can do, be aware!!! Has taken me years to teach my wife to never
    be complacent, when going to the car have keys ready, head held high and
    scanning as you are walking. Don't look like a victim. Look at your car as you approach,
    put keys in lock and open door and look in the car before you get in. Lock door
    right away and turn on car and lights. Beat into her head to NOT be a victim.
    As far as I"m concerned, no gun in car, pepper spray or tazer, and practice would work
    better. And for home, if someone breaks in, there is NO reason for a warning, you came in
    uninvited, and if the dog doesn't make you think twice, the sound of a Mossberg 12 ga
    being pumped should get the uninvited moving quickly.
    Climb into the sky, never wonder why - Tailgunner
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    Well I have to mention a few weeks ago, to the range we went, 2 guys were shot dead when they went out on the field to set up new target. They were the only ones on the public range at that time, and they left their rifle unloaded at the tables and went to the targets. A dude came in, loaded one rifle and shoot both guys and tool off with their guns and equipment.

    So when we went and we were alone, we carried our rifle with us when we go to the targets and kept them unloaded (as per state regulations), but I made sure to grab an handful of rounds and put them in my pocket first.

    I think we're gonna look into either a 357 or .38 cal. revolver and some bear spray.
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

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    A lot of good info for the OP in this thread, So maybe this was already suggested and I missed it...
    One thing I would recommend would be letting her pick her own gun. As others have said, if she's going to have/carry a gun, she needs training and practice. She won't want to shoot a gun that isn't fun to shoot. A gun that you pick may be too big for her hands, or a caliber she is not comfortable with and may not be fun for her to shoot. Take her to a gun store, let her handle the options in your price range. If you can rent and shoot on site, even better.
    Find one that she likes and meets you goals.

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    Wow that's crazy about those guys getting shot. That isn't something ive ever thought about before. I have considered some idiot shooting my by accident. Public ranges are dangerous for that.

    I think a revolver will serve you well. My grandfather has a S&W 38 up in his closet that hasn't been cleaned in probably 30+ years and still runs like a champ.

    Bear spray is no joke. A friend's girlfriend sprayed another friend's car and it stripped the paint.


    As for awareness, Yes I'm sorry I forgot about that. No weapon can substitute an aware and prepared person. Not putting yourself in a risky situation is obviously the first step. Maybe adjusting her route to bring her threw some nicer territory, keeping an open eye at stop lights, car pool if possible, parking in a well lit area...
    Acting like a victim is asking for it.

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    +1 on what Ryno622 said about going to a range and renting
    the gun you want. A lot of ranges rent a lot of different guns, and
    like a bike it is better to try it first if you can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RCP FAB View Post
    I agree. Shooting to wound someone is illegal in CT.
    Seriously? The law actually states that if you shoot someone it must be your intent to kill them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnum9 View Post
    Seriously? The law actually states that if you shoot someone it must be your intent to kill them?
    Wouldn't surprise me these days. If you shoot someone with the intent to wound, don't be shocked when you get your arse sued off by the guy you shot. Don't be shocked when the guy wins in court. It's happened. Besides, it's just not tactically sound. Wing someone in the arm or leg and if they are determined, they can still get you. Put a couple in the chest, even if they don't die, that will take the fight out of them unless they are hopped up on something like PCP....then it's head shots. Anymore, it's not even that uncommon for bad guys to wear Kevlar so make sure to practice your body armor drills. Two to the body, one to the head. Pelvis shots are also very effective. Shatter a mans pelvis and you've stopped him in his tracks. He may still be able to shot if armed and able to function, but at least he's not coming after you.

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    Im not going to read this thread. There is probably already a piss battle going on.

    I will answer your question.

    If the pistol is going to stay in her car most of the time, you should go with a full size. Whether its a revolver, semi auto, whatever.
    A full size is going to be more comfortable to shoot, more accurate, and hold more ammo.(1 or 2 extra for a revolver and about 10 extra for a semi auto)

    If the firearm is comfortable to shoot, she will practice with it more.

    I want to get my GF a revolver because of the ease of operation. Failure to fire? Not likely, but you also just pull the trigger again to shoot. No tap and rack drill needs to be rehearsed.

    My Smith and wesson 19 is one of the greatest shooting revolvers I have ever shot. Only 7 rounds though so you gotta make them count.

    As for semi autos, they require more practice but I personally think the benefits outweigh the consequences ***if*** you are willing to put in the range time to learn to use it.

    I carry a Kahr CM9 and despite its tiny size, its one of the best shooting semis I have every shot. Hands down the best shooting subcompact ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepo5669 View Post
    Im not going to read this thread. There is probably already a piss battle going on.
    Believe it or not, there really isn't. Some differing opinions but it's staying pretty civil and still informative. Just a lot of info the OP needs to research and sift through. Hard to believe that a civilized thread about guns and self-defense can occur on here without getting stupid.

  54. #54
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    Couple of things :

    1)Have the gf carry pepper spray on her person when going to/from her car and/or have security escort if possible. The chances she will ever need to defend herself while driving in her car are minuscule compared to walking to/from a nighttime parking lot or garage. Walking in poor light with no one around while looking through a purse for car keys are what make women vulnerable. Driving a 2 ton car at 40mph??? Not so vulnerable.

    2) smaller semi-auto guns like the Ruger LCP (.380 auto) and the LC9 (9mm) are easy to conceal carry or drop in the purse. But small semi's like this may have a pretty good hand kick and although not an issue at all for self defense may not be fun for her to shoot at the range. This means not wanting to practice with it. Semi auto's also have the inherent problems mentioned already but nothing is perfect

    3) a small-ish framed .357 is not overkill imo. Something like the J framed Smith and Wesson model 60 or similar with a sub 3'' barrel can be carried easily and fits in a glove box just fine. The larger K/L framed models like the 686 with a short barrel could also fit the bill and would be even easier to control those types of rounds since it's even heavier. The advantage is that the SS revolver is heavier than plastic semi-autos, by quite a bit, even twice as heavy. This means that even a .357 round is controllable and will likely feel less hand heavy than many .38 or 9mm options. This translates to more fun to practice with. You can also practice with .38 Special rounds to save money and just throw some .357 rounds in here and there to remember what they feel like. Plus it's a revolver with no safety other than it's dual action pull, which makes it very difficult to accidentally fire but it's always ready to go if needed. Just point and pull the trigger.

    3) Shotgun is ridiculous for in car use. How do you hide it? How do you access it quickly if needed? How do you physically manage it within the constraints of a car? How do you use it if someone is grabbing you and there is no distance between you an the attacker? Worst idea of the bunch.

    As far as in home protection goes if she locks up her gun(s) then she can pretty much count on not having it should she really need it..and that's ok as long as she understands that. I lock my two guns up, I have kids. I also know full well I can't rely on those guns for home defense. Takes to long to access but that's the trade-off I choose as I see accessible guns as a far greater threat to my kids and their friends than I do a night-time intruder.

    I have not shot the LCP/LC9 myself. I highly suggest going to the range and renting before buying because 99.999% of the use this gun will see will be for fun and practice. If it causes quick hand pain and it's not fun to shoot it will get no use. Have her try a .357 revolver with .38 specials loaded. Should be very easy for her to shoot.
    Last edited by eatdrinkride; 08-13-2012 at 08:29 AM.

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    I thought you were a ninja? Shouldn't you show her how to used a rolled up magazine for self defense?



    1) Shotgun: Sawed off shotgun? Do you know your federal laws in regards to short-barrel shotguns?

    2) Self awareness is the most important weapon. Rapists/Assaults happen in the deep dark. Guys come out of bushes and they use the element of surprise to get their victim. How often do you think a criminal is going to stand in front of her and say, "Hey little lady..."?

    Most likely, if somebody was going to attack her, it's going to be a person who has been watching her patterns, and will cover themselves to attack from behind. Do you think she will have the opportunity to draw, present and fire a lethal shot? I highly doubt it - and shooting paper is much different than shooting a person. Especially when adrenaline is at redline.

    She should think about deterring attacks by being self-aware, watching her back at all times and don't put herself in bad situations. Walk in groups - always have somebody with her when she goes to her car - she can't be the only one getting off work at that time.
    Last edited by Dion; 08-13-2012 at 09:15 AM.

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    I would suggest a Smith & Wesson 442 or 642 J-frame. It's a .38 hammerless revolver with a 2" barrel.

    She can keep in her purse or pocket and shoot right from there if needed. There is no hammer or slide to get caught up in the case that you need to fire a few times. Being so small, she never has to draw the gun. She can just put her hand on it and get ready if she feels scared. Plus, it's easier to fix a hole in your jacket or purse then to get in trouble for brandinshing your weapon to some wierdo who just wanted a light. haha

    It's perfect for your up close and personal situations.

    If your budget grows, you can get a S&W 340PD which is titanium (12oz) and shoots both a .38 and a .357 (which hurts your hand)

    JP

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    Thanks guys. Lots of useful informations and good points on pros and cons. Better, it's still very polite and pertinent.

    I find the idea of a full size revolver better since the gun is definitively not to be carried and to stay in the car at all times, except when we take it to the range. The comments on having a heavier gun vs lighter one is something I didn't thought about, but now it makes a lot of sense coz I remember having better control over the heavy 357mag than the lighter 9mm semi-auto. Again I love the pros of the revolver regarding low cost and maintenance, safety and ease of operation.

    Also for the fact that she keeps her rifles locked down in the basement, I personally heavily insist that she keep them away and locked coz no one should even be aware of firearms in one's house. I came to consensus with her that rifles should only be used on hunting or gun range trip, and then immediately put away, cleaned, and locked. Same for the amo. And I don't want her to have a shotgun or other firearms at home in case of home-invasion, because I know neither her, her mom or her sister could handle the stress and safely operate a weapon with low risk of getting them injured. I prefer her not to take useless risks and that no one gets shot. And they have a quite harmful german sheaperd dog that can take care in first place and let the cops take the shots. But that's not what I want to discuss here anyways. Too vague to have a precise directive coz it's case by case situation.


    And for the rent a gun matter, I've wanted to go rent a few guns and shoot them with her for my b-day next month, but the closer one from me is in Dover and about 1.5 hours drive and require to be at least 21yo to rent a gun. I'll be 20 and she's 19 now, so unless we find someone who's willing to come down with us for that, etc I don't think it's gonna happen. Plus they didn't had the S&W .500 for rent, so definitively not worth the expense. Otherwise I would have find my way there hehe.

    I know at Gander's Mountain they usually have a nice selection of firearms and while I don't think you can try them at the one we have here (Salisbury, MD), you can still handle them and such. I don't think we're gonna buy now, but it's worth checking out and list the options

    And did I mention I LOVE shooting gunz ? While I don't hunt and don't like war and people getting shot, I really enjoy video games FPS, shooting guns and reading/learning about them. Like a second passion with knifes too but I don't think I'll ever own a gun because I feel like I need to. Maybe buy her guns and go to the shooting range, but not for myself. I know it's weird, but shooting guns is something I enjoy even more than mtbing. But I'm against using guns to shoot at people tho. It's something I wish could never happen. People getting killed is never a good thing. Ask any cops if they are enjoy pointing a gun at someone lol. /drivel


    And if someone could tell me a bit about what the different rounds that are available and what should I look for ? For example just target shooting, then enough penetration power to go trough a Civic's door or window, what's the most accurate or easy to fire, what exactly is armor piercing rounds ? I know full jacket are lead bullets with a copper layer so they don't fragment/flatten easy on impact, but what else ? What would be the best type of ammunition if I was to leave the gun in the car for an extended period, like months, and still have maximum fire power and reliability ? I also want a second loaded clip for the revolver, just in case and leave a box of amo in the trunk too, just in case, coz a gun without amo is useless.

    What about the sight ? Glow in the dark tip, optic fiber or just standard ? Considering the gun have a lot more chance to be used in dark than day light (except at the range).


    Thanks again
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I thought you were a ninja? Shouldn't you show her how to used a rolled up magazine for self defense?
    I am (well, not master yet ), so that's why I don't feel like I could make good use of carrying a gun. But she had problem with her shoulder in the past and I doubt she'll be able to take on someone like I could, unless she goes trough a lot of intensive training and good workout for the rest of her life.

    Being said, I told her that I'll teach her how to be more vigilant and not to be a victim and a few basic techniques against grasping or holding. Maybe how to disarm or dodge (but not against firearms), but this is only good if you train often and if you're not good at it, you'll get hurt even worse than not doing anything.

    In fact, the real thing is we both like to get an handgun to shoot with the rifles, but while we're at it, we wanna buy something that could come in handy for her one day if something was to ever happen (which I hope will never be).
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  59. #59
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    The best self defense round is the one well placed...

    what exactly is armor piercing rounds ? I know full jacket are lead bullets with a copper layer so they don't fragment/flatten easy on impact, but what else ? What would be the best type of ammunition if I was to leave the gun in the car
    For self defense (in public areas especially) you want a bullet that will not over-penatrate, although the likehood of a bullet hitting it's intended target (person), exiting that target and then hitting another person is extremely low compared to just plain missing your target and hitting something you never intended to.

    You want something hollowpoint that expands well and looses velocity quickly causing a large wound channel but not over-penetrating. This is great in theory, just don't miss lol.

    I'm no gun expert so I'm gonna bow out now. I've just done a ton of research lately on this subject so just wanted to pass some of the highlights on that everyone seems to agree with.

    Hornady® Critical Defense® Handgun Ammo | Bass Pro Shops

    How to select the best ammo for a defensive handgun
    Last edited by eatdrinkride; 08-13-2012 at 10:02 AM.

  60. #60
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    seeing as i bike alone a lot, and my canine companion would probably wag her tail and sniff the butt of anybody in the process of murdering me, i've considered pepper spray. never go around to it though.
    fap

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    seeing as i bike alone a lot, and my canine companion would probably wag her tail and sniff the butt of anybody in the process of murdering me, i've considered pepper spray. never go around to it though.
    Just order some Fox Labs brand pepper spray. It's generally regarded as the best, most reliable pepper spray product and is a good Michigan made product too (I am not affiliated with Fox Labs in any way.) it's available everywhere, including online like Amazon. Check to make sure the capsaicin concentration is legal where you live. I carry a smallish fogger container mainly for dealing with those persistent dogs that like to chase me nipping at my heels. It works well on humans too though. Get the Sudecon clean up sheets too to clean yourself up if you happen to use it. It expires, you have to replace it every few years too mainly because the propellant will lose pressure over time like any spray can.

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    S&w 642

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by pursuiter View Post
    The NRA's position on semi-autos is clear, people think it won't happen to them. In real life, jams from limp wristing a semi-auto under pressure is very real. A second clip is the only way to be sure. Or you can carry a revolver.
    And revolvers can be had with scandium frames and ti drums now. Light and fool proof.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David C View Post
    Coz she works in a hospital/healthcare center

    The whole idea is to leave it in the car, coz that's pretty much the only place where she could potentially have to use it. She just go straight to her car when she's done working and drive all the way back home which is in a garage, so it's more like if she's stopped at a red light and for some reason a freak park right in front of her and tries to assault her idk. She's driving 20 minutes every night in the country and you never know what can happen. I would not be worried about leaving it in the car as if someone breaks in, he's most likely to either stole the car or grab a few quick things.

    And I'm just asking your opinion. Maybe she's just better with no guns at all, idk
    Personally, if this is the essence of the concern, I would stick to bear/pepper spray. To me, the more likely scenario is someone messing with her while on her way to the car, not while driving. IMO, the added complications of driving around with a loaded weapon don't justify the very unlikely event that it will need to be used. Justified or not, killing someone isn't a fun time. Better to incapacitate them instead...

    If you're looking to buy your girlfriend a gun for range practice, etc., that's a different story. I'm not against guns - I own two - but I would NEVER drive around with a loaded weapon in my car. FTR...

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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    For self defense (in public areas especially) you want a bullet that will not over-penatrate, although the likehood of a bullet hitting it's intended target (person), exiting that target and then hitting another person is extremely low compared to just plain missing your target and hitting something you never intended to.

    You want something hollowpoint that expands well and looses velocity quickly causing a large wound channel but not over-penetrating. This is great in theory, just don't miss lol.

    I'm no gun expert so I'm gonna bow out now. I've just done a ton of research lately on this subject so just wanted to pass some of the highlights on that everyone seems to agree with.

    Hornady® Critical Defense® Handgun Ammo | Bass Pro Shops

    How to select the best ammo for a defensive handgun
    Yea man that's pretty spot on.



    Best bet for getting a good self defense round is to ask at the shop when you buy. I could tell you all the things in the world about them right now but unless you can actually look at it, its a little hard to explain. You could google ballistic gel results from what ever caliber your thinking of choosing.
    Expect to pay twice what you would of self defense ammo as target ammo. Self defense ammo isn't what you'd regularly take to the range.

    Tinted windows would go a long way to protect yourself at a stoplight at night. Even an attacker would think twice about approaching a car if they cant see whats going on inside.


    I'm a firm believer that women should carry pepper spray and know how to use it and how it feels to catch a back blast of it. I still haven't figured out how to convince my wife of the last part. A whistle is a good idea too, especially for a woman riding alone in the woods. I see creepy people in there sometimes.

    Womans self defense classes could also help boost her confidence as well as teach her some tricks.

    Something I learned in the Marine Corps that could relate...
    Make yourself a "Hard Target" meaning portray that it would be more hassle then benefit to F*ck with you.
    An easy target is asking to be victimized.

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    This is kind of like asking for the "best mountain bike"...you're going to get a host of answers from all over the place. Doesn't mean any of them are right or wrong, just that there are a lot of different opinions.

    FWIW, I have been a police officer for nine years and a firearms instructor for five years. I carry everywhere I go, period. The basis for my answer is my experience and my training in firearms, so take that for what you will.

    My universal caution when faced with these type of questions is that carrying a firearm for self defense is absolutely not something to be taken lightly or decided and executed hastily.

    Question 1: Is she really ready to USE a handgun against another person? This is absolutely the single most important thing to decide, and she needs to get it out of the way NOW, and not when she sees the elephant, so to speak. If she is not absolutely certain that she is mentally prepared to kill another person at bad breath distance, then the gun is probably a liability.

    After the first question is answered, there really are no others. It's not the arrows, it's the Indian, as they say. Proper mindset will drive the weapon.

    That all being said, if it was my woman, I would consider something small and in 9mm.

    Revolvers in .38/.357 are concealable and reliable, but not necessarily a joy to shoot, generally have rudimentary sights, are difficult to reload, and suffer from a capacity perspective. I've carried a .38 revolver as a back-up for several years, and I have the utmost respect for the guns, but they're going to require more training to reach proficiency.

    The ultracompact .380s are not a terrible choice, but the current crop of micro 9mms are not much larger and offer a ballistically superior, less expensive round. The little .380s also often have rudimentary sights and often not the best controls. I carry a Ruger LCP as an off-duty backup religiously, but I would prefer something else as my "only" carried gun.

    Calibers other than 9mm, most notably .40, .357sig, and .45 are all fine choices, however when you look at ballistic performance (velocity, energy, expansion, and penetration) between modern hollowpoint loads in any of those calibers, the margins are narrower than ever, and the 9mm generally is higher capacity and lower felt recoil. All are completely shootable, and for the sake of capacity, we're not talking about the difference between a 15 shot .40 and a 17 shot 9mm...we're talking about the difference between a 9 shot .40 an a 10 or 11 shot 9mm, or an 8 shot .45, etc, etc, etc.

    Speaking of which, for carry ammunition, seek out a BONDED hollowpoint round that produces 12-15" of penetration through various mediums when shot in to ballistic gel. There are a short list of loads that meet these criteria and you will find that they are widely utilized by law enforcement. Speer Gold Dot, Federal Tactical Bonded, Winchester Ranger Bonded, etc. There's always some new whiz-bang round out there, but I'm sticking with my Speer Gold Dots. In a bonded round, the backet and core are bonded together at the molecular level, which prevents jacket separation and results in better consistency and better weight retention, particularly when shooting through difficult barriers, such as windshield glass. The bullet has to be effective, so as much care, or potentially more, than go in to selecting the gun should go in to selecting the round. And remember, not all bullets are created equal. 9mm is regularly available in 115, 124, 127, 135, and 147 grain weights. .40 is available in 155, 165, and 180 gr, .45 in 185, 200, and 230 grain. My preferred 9mm load is the 124gr +P Gold Dot. The 127gr +P+ Win Ranger is nice, too.

    Make sure the gun is paired with a secure, but quickly accessible method of carry (holster), that it is cleaned and checked regularly, that the ammunition is rotated out periodically, and that she gets lots of trigger time. Make sure that trigger time is spent on both marksmanship AND practical drills. Create scenarios that she might face. Practice, practice, practice.

    ...and don't forget to carry a flashlight. You can't shoot what you can't see. I recommend the Streamlight PT1L.

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    For small size purse or pocket carrying I would get a Ruger .380 lcp or lcr. I have a lcp and it's great to carry on light shorts when I don't want to carry a sub compact.

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    I carried Federal Hydra-Shoks on duty for 10 years.

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    Fn p90

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    Quote Originally Posted by mapco View Post
    Fn p90
    Hehe, I love this gun. Too bad I can't buy it since I'm not a US citizen and that automatic weapons are highly restricted in Canada

    But I guess I could always leave it here. Just kidding. No need for that unless you have plenty of time to spare at the shooting range or training facilities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David C View Post
    Hehe, I love this gun. Too bad I can't buy it since I'm not a US citizen and that automatic weapons are highly restricted in Canada

    But I guess I could always leave it here. Just kidding. No need for that unless you have plenty of time to spare at the shooting range or training facilities.
    You were asking about armor piercing ammo earlier. I believe those rounds are banned in Canada across the board with a few exceptions in the 'sport' class of guns. Guns like the FHN Five Seven use 5.7x28mm rounds meant for this. Becoming popular with the US Armed Forces from what I understand but nothing you could legally shoot up north.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaysop View Post
    Something I learned in the Marine Corps that could relate...
    Make yourself a "Hard Target" meaning portray that it would be more hassle then benefit to F*ck with you.
    An easy target is asking to be victimized.
    My father-in-law is a vet (Vietnam era), and this is what he taught my wife. She doesn't feel she needs to carry a gun, or even pepper spray. I also feel that a handgun, in the hands of most people are more of a liability than an asset.

    I think people believe that drawing, presenting, and firing a gun at an attacker will end up like the scene from Collateral with Tom Cruise. This will not likely be the case, and a one shot kill is very unlikely, too. Watch any store break-ins where the store owner has to use a gun, and there's so much chaos, and usually the perp runs away. And, like you said, many don't realize the life, long memory of killing somebody - even in self defense - can create PTSD in certain individuals.

    If I were to give a gun to my wife to carry (which I would never - and I am a huge gun enthusiast) I fear that thing being stolen or used against her in an attack. A better option is to be smart - don't go into dark places; don't become a victim by being steps ahead of an attacker.

    A better option than buying a gun, which is a liability for most, is to make sure she has an escort or walk in a large group with others getting off at that time - during those dark, nighttime hours.

    IMO, a 200lb. man using the element of surprise and concealment has the upper hand over a small woman with a gun in a purse - or worse yet - a car. Add adrenaline at redline? Boy... I'm not sure if a concealed gun would even matter.

    I personally think the pepper spray is the best choice. She can keep it in hand while she walks (can't do that with a handgun) and it's easier to deploy (weight, ease of use, etc.). Plus, you don't have to potentially kill somebody or worry about collateral damage a 1000fps 9mm bullet can do.


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    You're more likely to have a small car fire that injures you. Same with home fires. Theres really no fire extinguisher enthusiasts though, despite being a much MUCH larger threat to you and your families safety

    Most criminals arent looking to get into a gun battle with you. The second shots are fired, they're running. Couple that with the fact that you'll probably miss, I think more capacity and ease of firing make a 9mm semi auto the best call. You can provide enough fire that the person you're shooting at will either be hit, or be running without enough time to aim and fire back.

    For home, penetration is the big issue. A 12ga with buckshot can penetrate almost 30 inches of ballistic gel, depending on the load. Even if you hit someone, this is a hazard. Most handgun rounds have more penetration than a fragmenting .223. I think semi auto .223s are the best call for home, considering penetration and rate of fire.

    But still, owning guns is more about peace of mind than effectiveness.

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    Also, killing someone is VERY traumatic. Its an event that troubles people for life, despite shooting "bad guys".

    Id have no problem pepper spraying the hell out of someone though. It hurts SO bad, and its highly effective at stopping someone. Doesnt make sense for home protection, but walking to your car at night and things like that, its perfect. If you feel threatened, you can use it. Instead of having a dead body (and potential legal ramification), you're home safe.

    Theres some very serious cases of people being charged when using guns for self defense.

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    For ease and reliability for a woman its hard to beat a .38 revolver.

    Whats a clip?

    And pissing contests over calibers is pointless in this thread. My main edc is a 1911 but i wouldnt recommend that for everyone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pursuiter View Post
    Revolvers don't jam,
    Mine did, once.

    A faulty round left the bullet between cylinder and barrel. Pushing it back into the cylinder with a rod took a bit more time than dropping the magazine etc.

    Otherwise...
    Having a gun and knowing how to shoot does not necessarily mean that you can effectively defend yourself. At the very least, it takes a mindset that accepts the possibility that both you and the other person may be hurt. Some training in both unarmed and armed combat would be good, and I don't mean judo and IPSC.

    If I though I was likely to be attacked, I'd be much more worried in a parking lot than at a red light. Leaving a gun in a car would keep me constantly worrying about somebody breaking into the car.

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    im sure this has been mentioned. Be careful about the local laws. Around my area if the firearm is loaded and within reach of the driver (you know, where it would be useful in such an event) then its considered carrying and you can get in trouble without a permit.
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    And i consider laser sights (crimson trace preferrably) a must for a carry firearm. Especially for the night situations u speak of. Take a look at the ruger lcr .38
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    Quote Originally Posted by weaverwins View Post
    Whats a clip?


    Not for you... but this is for those having trouble.

    "Dude, he had, like, 17 bullets in his clip..."

    Urban Dictionary: mall ninja


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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSlow35th View Post
    im sure this has been mentioned. Be careful about the local laws. Around my area if the firearm is loaded and within reach of the driver (you know, where it would be useful in such an event) then its considered carrying and you can get in trouble without a permit.
    Glad i live in tx...
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    Quote Originally Posted by weaverwins View Post
    Glad i live in tx...
    No permits in AZ either. Not even a need for a CCW permit any longer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    No permits in AZ either. Not even a need for a CCW permit any longer.
    Yea yall are definitely loose with the gun restrictions
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    Is it really legal to leave a gun with ammo in a car? It ought to be illegal at least. Around here you can't even ride around with a rifle and the bolt mounted together in case of theft, you need to carry the bolt on you. And this is sound advice, don't leave working firearms in cars!!

    I would have gone ultralight hammerless 38 revolver if it was me, like 12-14 oz at most.

    Or bearspray!! You can leave bearspray in your car right??
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    Is it really legal to leave a gun with ammo in a car? It ought to be illegal at least. Around here you can't even ride around with a rifle and the bolt mounted together in case of theft, you need to carry the bolt on you. And this is sound advice, don't leave working firearms in cars!!

    I would have gone ultralight hammerless 38 revolver if it was me, like 12-14 oz at most.

    Or bearspray!! You can leave bearspray in your car right??
    Since you cant carry everywhere unfortunately, yes, its legal... In tx, no permit needed for it if its just in car. Permit needed to carry beyond that.

    More guns = less crime
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSlow35th View Post
    im sure this has been mentioned. Be careful about the local laws. Around my area if the firearm is loaded and within reach of the driver (you know, where it would be useful in such an event) then its considered carrying and you can get in trouble without a permit.
    Its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. I read that on the internet. Seems to make sense at least. As long as you don't become a dead victim I'd say anything goes/is good. More or less.
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    As easy as the CCW is to get, I dont really see an issue with it. I dont have my permit yet, when I carry my gun to the range its in a case in my gym bag laying in the passenger seat. But I keep the mag out of it.
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  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by weaverwins View Post
    Since you cant carry everywhere unfortunately, yes, its legal... In tx, no permit needed for it if its just in car. Permit needed to carry beyond that.

    More guns = less crime
    I'd say the worst possible place to leave a functioning gun unattended is in your parked out of sight car. Am I alone thinking this? Its borderline "asking for it to be stolen" in my book at least. This is why its illegal to do so on I'd guess the whole european continent. But now when I keep reading I'm getting more and more amazed you don't even need a permit or licence or anything.

    If I was to get a gun for defense I would have it on me at all times. Otherwise whats it good for?

    But you are right, since the cat is out of the bag, more (legally owned) guns = less crime. Otherwise only criminals have guns.
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    Id say lets avoid a gun control debate if we can. They get really ugly really fast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSlow35th View Post
    Id say lets avoid a gun control debate if we can. They get really ugly really fast.

    This thread has lasted on topic for much longer than I ever thought possible. Probably the most courteous gun thread I've ever read on here. What the heck is wrong with everyone lately, can't we all just not get along???

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    Props to this thread! they usually dont last more than one page!
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    It is only one page. And it probably will be for 10 more posts. Settings gentlemen, settings!
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    Haha, thanks guys. I really appreciate that despite all the advices and opinions, they are still many interesting new ideas and facts. And of course to keep it nice and clean

    The last posts have been quite thoughtful about not leaving a gun in the car and using mainly bear spray or such instead. As a matter of fact, I do not carry a gun with me for two reasons, it's very restricted business in Canada and I don't feel like I need to. But that's because I live in the city and never actually been into a situation where I could have wish I had a gun just in case if...

    But if I were to live in the country and having to drive at night on desert roads with no light except my headlights, I'd be more than happy to keep a "backup" plan close by. Because I know that if something happens, I'm miles away, in the dark and no one's here to hear me. Because you never know. But that's just me. Of course a bear spray and a nice army/survival style knife, like a kabar, would also be nearby.

    I think we're gonna start by a bear spray and get a nice revolver she enjoys to shoot and she how she really feel about the need of carrying...
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I think people believe that drawing, presenting, and firing a gun at an attacker will end up like the scene from Collateral with Tom Cruise. This will not likely be the case, and a one shot kill is very unlikely, too. Watch any store break-ins where the store owner has to use a gun, and there's so much chaos, and usually the perp runs away. And, like you said, many don't realize the life, long memory of killing somebody - even in self defense - can create PTSD in certain individuals.

    If I were to give a gun to my wife to carry (which I would never - and I am a huge gun enthusiast) I fear that thing being stolen or used against her in an attack. A better option is to be smart - don't go into dark places; don't become a victim by being steps ahead of an attacker.

    A better option than buying a gun, which is a liability for most, is to make sure she has an escort or walk in a large group with others getting off at that time - during those dark, nighttime hours.

    IMO, a 200lb. man using the element of surprise and concealment has the upper hand over a small woman with a gun in a purse - or worse yet - a car. Add adrenaline at redline? Boy... I'm not sure if a concealed gun would even matter.

    I personally think the pepper spray is the best choice. She can keep it in hand while she walks (can't do that with a handgun) and it's easier to deploy (weight, ease of use, etc.). Plus, you don't have to potentially kill somebody or worry about collateral damage a 1000fps 9mm bullet can do.
    Pretty much sums up my thoughts. I spent until 5th grade as a scared white boy in a black neighborhood (cue the Everclear song). I learned young to stay under the radar, out of the way, and away from conflict situations. Plus, I'm built like a linebacker, an assume that most wouldn't see me as a very easy target, anyway. Consequently, I've really had few conflicts in my life, despite being in some pretty potentially bad situations.

    I'm all for owning guns, etc., but especially for an inexperienced person, I dont think a gun would be all that useful in a high pressure situation. Most people, including myself, don't put in the time or effort to get to where using the gun would be as automatic as it would need to be. You have to keep in mind that, usually, an attacker has a plan, knows what he plans on doing, etc, while the victim is dealing with the surprise of the whole situation, trying to figure out whether force is necessary, etc. Which is why don't carry my gun for self defense -- I think I'd be better off running, fighting, etc. than I would ever be with a gun under the kind of pressure you'd deal with in a parking lot attack, carjacking, etc.

    Pepper spray is a grab-and-push-the-button prospect. No aim, operation, no potentially lethal accidential discharges, etc. Seems a lot more feasible for 99% of us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David C View Post
    I think we're gonna start by a bear spray and get a nice revolver she enjoys to shoot and she how she really feel about the need of carrying...
    Smart decision, son.

    Like One Pivot says, in the end, the likelihood of her being injured by a small fire is more probable than being attacked by a man in a black hoodie, but nobody is a fire extinguisher enthusiast.

    Plus, you don't have to deal with the anti's arguing over the legitimacy of carrying bear spray - pretty benign compared to carrying a gun, although they are used for the same purpose (self defense). If she feels threatened, she can walk with it in her hand - try doing that with a revolver. Don't forget a whistle... very important defense tool. Blowing a whistle as loud as possible with bear spray being shot in a perps face is a bad day for him. Swift kick in his nuts, and she wins.

    Glad you made a wise choice.

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    Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
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    I don't actually own bear spray, but I know pepper spray can be had in 1l cannisters, fully pressurised and ready to go. and with one of thos at your hand its like having a fully automatic 12 gauge that just keeps on going for like 30 seconds.

    If the treat is ultra serious serious though i would have opted for a revolver or anything that sprays lead instead. I'd guess in most situations, like 99.9% a pepper spray or bear spray will do fine. And you can spray it much longer. I would have gotten some type of spray that has a pistol handle and is pretty much point and shoot. And you can leave that open to see for anyone. Those sprays are no joke. But you need to get a big enough one.

    Just as turning out fires you need a big one if it burns a lot (I have been to classes recently). You may miss 90% of the time, then its good to have extra at hand to make sure you turn it out.
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by David C View Post
    , I do not carry a gun with me for two reasons, it's very restricted business in Canada and I don't feel like I need to. But that's because I live in the city and never actually been into a situation where I could have wish I had a gun just in case if...

    But if I were to live in the country and having to drive at night on desert roads with no light except my headlights, I'd be more than happy to keep a "backup" plan close by. Because I know that if something happens, I'm miles away, in the dark and no one's here to hear me. Because you never know. But that's just me. Of course a bear spray and a nice army/survival style knife, like a kabar, would also be nearby. QUOTE]
    I don't have any stats to back this up but I think in reality your are much more at risk in an urban environment than driving down some deserted rural road, just food for thought.

    Still, it's a peace of mind thing I guess.

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    I would think so too. 1000 people/km2 vs 2 people/km2. The odds are higher in the city. Any city. Just because of the much higher density of people/km2.
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    Some one carrying is also more likely to be shot and killed than a person not carrying. A little more food for thought.

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    [QUOTE=eatdrinkride;9596961]

    I don't have any stats to back this up but I think in reality your are much more at risk in an urban environment than driving down some deserted rural road, just food for thought.

    Still, it's a peace of mind thing I guess.
    Canada has very low violent crime. The US is a war zone in comparison... and the chances of needing a gun to stop a violent situation in most of the US is extremely low.

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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    I would think so too. 1000 people/km2 vs 2 people/km2. The odds are higher in the city. Any city. Just because of the much higher density of people/km2.
    It's more about having people around you in case you need help that being all on your own. In the city, I get shelter and help everywhere. Not much in the country. Of course unless you hang out in the bad parts of town.

    And I'm not afraid of being on my own in the city at night, because I know the place and know where it's not safe to go. Learned how to spot potential danger zones and keep my eyes and ears alert. And not hesitate to look people in the eyes as I walk by. I never had any trouble. As long as you play it cool and be on your game, you're not a target there. But that's me.

    And YMMV.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    Some one carrying is also more likely to be shot and killed than a person not carrying. A little more food for thought.
    False. If u want to be a sheep thats fine but please dont spread bs cause effect lies to people that wish to protect themselves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by weaverwins View Post
    False. If u want to be a sheep thats fine but please dont spread bs cause effect lies to people that wish to protect themselves.
    If you took the time to read, you'd see that I'm not anti-carry. Just offering some additional info for the OP to consider. So if you want, you can take a look at this and stop being a jerkoff.

    Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed - science-in-society - 06 October 2009 - New Scientist

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    If you took the time to read, you'd see that I'm not anti-carry. Just offering some additional info for the OP to consider. So if you want, you can take a look at this and stop being a jerkoff.

    Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed - science-in-society - 06 October 2009 - New Scientist
    Are you from Fox News? Given time I could counter those stats (though I didn't read the article) with countless others. Don't you think all the stats from the NRA 'studies' would show just the opposite? Who's the sheep? Do what you want. Forget the "stats", everyone has an agenda and completely unbiased surveys and 'studies' are few and far between.

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    Don't even bother Nubster, was hoping it'd go longer without a flame war, let's see.
    Round and round we go

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    If you took the time to read, you'd see that I'm not anti-carry. Just offering some additional info for the OP to consider. So if you want, you can take a look at this and stop being a jerkoff.

    Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed - science-in-society - 06 October 2009 - New Scientist
    If you think that study has merit, you need to take a stats 101 course...Thanks... Got anything else for me to giggle at?
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    Quote Originally Posted by weaverwins View Post
    False. If u want to be a sheep thats fine but please dont spread bs cause effect lies to people that wish to protect themselves.
    Nubster is right.
    If you are unarmed you pose less a threat to a determined attacker. How many times have you seen someone printing so badly that you can tell what they're carrying and in what holster?! Having a weapon on you leaves you less options for how a situation to play out. For example, maybe a drunk guy is getting out of hand... I'm not gona get physical with him if I have a weapon on my side, how else to I neutralize the situation if I cant leave it? Carrying forces confrontations to escalate higher than sometimes necessary.
    That study may be exaggerating but maybe its not.



    I cant stand that "Sheep dog, sheep" BS. Because I don't have a gun on my side in no way makes me a sheep. I don't need a gun to beat the Fkin piss out of someone.
    Because someone has a gun on them they feel some kind of rush of confidence like they are protecting everyone else. Become a cop if that's what you want.

    In most circumstances if im out with my family or even by myself the thought of some of the half minded people you encounter carrying guns thinking they are going to save the world is more concerning than a criminal with one. Anyone ever heard of Gecko45 guy?

    There is nothing wrong with wanting to protect yourself, and if you need to carry to feel safe then so be it. I FULLY support that and encourage that. But don't think your doing me any favors by doing so.

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    delete...

    going down the toilet now.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    Ya, that's the goal, to be a target with no fuss from the offender. You say you don't need a firearm to beat someone up but maybe your girlfriend or wife does....or even you perhaps given the situation. This is a stupid argument. To each his own.
    My point was that the more of a threat you pose to an attacker the more aggressive they will have to be.
    Which if its obvious your carrying by wearing a Sheepdog tee and a hat that says "I don't call the Cops" and your printing like a mofo, if someone wants to rob you or what ever it is they want to do with you... if they know your armed they may just pop you in the back. Supporting the statement that statistically your more likely to get shot while carrying.

    I'm not saying make yourself look like a puss to protect yourself...

    I'm also not sayying carrying is a bad thing. I just don't buy into the 'sheep dog, sheep" thing.
    Your reading me all wrong brother.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaysop View Post
    My point was that the more of a threat you pose to an attacker the more aggressive they will have to be.
    Which if its obvious your carrying by wearing a Sheepdog tee and a hat that says "I don't call the Cops" and your printing like a mofo, if someone wants to rob you or what ever it is they want to do with you... if they know your armed they may just pop you in the back. Supporting the statement that statistically your more likely to get shot while carrying.

    I'm not saying make yourself look like a puss to protect yourself...

    I'm also not sayying carrying is a bad thing. I just don't buy into the 'sheep dog, sheep" thing.
    Your reading me all wrong brother.
    Ya, I get it. That's why I tried to bow out before my post stuck. I'm not into the debate of carrying or not carrying. I myself do not but I understand those who do. You've never known 99% of the people who are carrying around you are indeed carrying, because to the responsible CCW owner...that's the point. The "tough guy" is a target, or at the very least inviting trouble.
    Last edited by eatdrinkride; 08-15-2012 at 11:17 PM.

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    Not sure where you live, but a good thing to do is find a local gun shop/range that rents guns to let you shoot them. If it is only for home security there is a range of options because you don't have to worry about concealment. If your worried about kick subcompacts is not what you want to look for so a good 9mm pistol or .45 will work well. My wife has a 9mm H&K and I have a .45 1911, and after shooting both she likes my .45 better because the 1911 is just a easy gun to handle and shoot. A big key is the feel for the shooter and how they shoot it. Price should be a secondary concern because the last thing you want is to have someone in your house and a pistol that goes click and not boom when you pull the trigger. Also look at a low profile drawer safe. They make some that are finger coded so you hit the combination through a set of finger taps
    Last edited by Davehtutk; 08-16-2012 at 06:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tystevens View Post
    Pepper spray is a grab-and-push-the-button prospect. No aim, operation, no potentially lethal accidential discharges, etc. Seems a lot more feasible for 99% of us.
    Yes but pepper spray doesn't provide the same "I'm a perpetually scared person who thinks everyone is out to get me but with a hand gun I'll be just like Clint Eastwood slaying the bad guys" fantasy like a hand gun does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    Yes but pepper spray doesn't provide the same "I'm a perpetually scared person who thinks everyone is out to get me but with a hand gun I'll be just like Clint Eastwood slaying the bad guys" fantasy like a hand gun does.
    Do you actually know anyone who carries? Just curious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSlow35th View Post
    Do you actually know anyone who carries? Just curious.
    Yes I do. Most of them are insane from fear from reading conservative "Obama wants to kill your children" chain emails, "new sources" like Fox News, Newsmax and "entertainers" like Rush Limbaugh or terror promoting organizations like the NRA and they think the whole world is out to rob, rape and kill them and take their prized Elvis memorabilia and Franklin Mint collections. For most people the odds are better at winning the lottery for millions of dollars or being hit by lightning than from that happening but the firearm makes them feel all warm and fuzzy and safe. If you are stuck living or working a business in a high crime area filled with drug addicts fine, if you're a suburbanite in your back yard in a safe neighborhood it's just the typical [email protected] fear based paranoia.

    Fear has always been good for business in the USA and the gun makers profit from it more than anyone except maybe defense contractors.

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    Now people are making assumptions and giving worthless studies merit. This thread is done. Sad that people choose to remain uneducated on this topic and just pray things will be ok. Ill hope for the best but prepare for the worst... And i dont wear anything that makes people think im a "sheepdog". This is comical but sad to read.

    To op. Disparity of force is a real thing.. for your girl and also for some of these tough guy interwebs idiots that think they can "beat tge piss outta" anyone that comes along. Glad to see people looking into protection for there loved ones BEFORE incidents occur.
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    Weaver it's funny that your calling the thread now, especially
    Because you were the one starting the argumentive tone.
    If carrying a gun is the only way you feel safe then good on you. Millions of people live day to day without them and feel just fine.

    Most people who do carry are responsible people who cause no trouble And shine a positive light on the practice. Then you have the guys who tell you your stupid for not doing it, and then you have your "Tex Grebner" fcking retards who makes the other 95% look like what the other guy is describing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    Yes I do. Most of them are insane from fear from reading conservative "Obama wants to kill your children" chain emails, "new sources" like Fox News, Newsmax and "entertainers" like Rush Limbaugh or terror promoting organizations like the NRA and they think the whole world is out to rob, rape and kill them and take their prized Elvis memorabilia and Franklin Mint collections.
    I won't say most CCW carriers make me nervous. But I know a couple guys that really make me worry a little bit. Their obsession with defense, constant spouting rhetoric like "sheeple," and the fact that they really seem to want the chance to use their gun and prove themselves, makes me really question their grip on reality. I don't really feel safe knowing they are carrying guns, to tell you the truth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    Yes I do. Most of them are insane from fear from reading conservative "Obama wants to kill your children" chain emails, "new sources" like Fox News, Newsmax and "entertainers" like Rush Limbaugh or terror promoting organizations like the NRA and they think the whole world is out to rob, rape and kill them and take their prized Elvis memorabilia and Franklin Mint collections. For most people the odds are better at winning the lottery for millions of dollars or being hit by lightning than from that happening but the firearm makes them feel all warm and fuzzy and safe. If you are stuck living or working a business in a high crime area filled with drug addicts fine, if you're a suburbanite in your back yard in a safe neighborhood it's just the typical [email protected] fear based paranoia.

    Fear has always been good for business in the USA and the gun makers profit from it more than anyone except maybe defense contractors.
    Agreed 100%!

    As a hardcore gun enthusiast, nothing bothers me more than paranoid mall ninjas who think that everyone is out to get them. This has been even more enhanced with the internet and, God forbid, a black, Democratic president. I'm not a fan of Obama (not a fan of any of the last handful of presidents, either), but I also don't believe that Obama-goons are going to be repelling down from a helicopter to take my M1 Carbine.

    I used to be an NRA member, but stopped paying dues, because I didn't feel/see any benefit of my membership - anti-gun people are still anti-gun and politics are still politics. This, like legalizing marijuana and abortion, will be a hot political topic until the day I die, and the guns I own will be in a safe and eventually given to my heirs.

    I simply don't believe the black helicopter is coming to get me any time soon.

    I believe in personal defense, but more on the preventative side of things. You don't need a gun for that - you need to be smart. I believe in protecting my home with a shotgun (or a handgun). I have a single shot shotgun which I am very good with, not a high-capacity AR15, which is such overkill it's comical. But again, deterring break-ins is more important with good alarm systems, locked doors and not showing off your valuables to the world.

    Best weapon for personal defense is your mind. For most people, carrying a gun is nothing but trouble, and yes, you may end up shot. That is, if you hang out in places where people who shoot people hang out. I don't have any need to venture out to the ghettos of Oakland, Ca.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tystevens View Post
    I won't say most CCW carriers make me nervous. But I know a couple guys that really make me worry a little bit. Their obsession with defense, constant spouting rhetoric like "sheeple," and the fact that they really seem to want the chance to use their gun and prove themselves, makes me really question their grip on reality. I don't really feel safe knowing they are carrying guns, to tell you the truth.
    I agree, the ones out looking to be heroes and hunting for "evil-doers" based on their attire or other stupid reasons are the scary ones. If they ever use the term "sheeple" you can be pretty sure they are buggin' out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    I agree, the ones out looking to be heroes and hunting for "evil-doers" based on their attire or other stupid reasons are the scary ones. If they ever use the term "sheeple" you can be pretty sure they are buggin' out.
    Yeah, I wouldn't mind if they got a bit of a head start, and 'get outta Dodge' immediately! I'll be ok without them 'protecting' me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I believe in personal defense, but more on the preventative side of things. You don't need a gun for that - you need to be smart. I believe in protecting my home with a shotgun (or a handgun). I have a single shot shotgun which I am very good with, not a high-capacity AR15, which is such overkill it's comical. But again, deterring break-ins is more important with good alarm systems, locked doors and not showing off your valuables to the world.

    Best weapon for personal defense is your mind. For most people, carrying a gun is nothing but trouble, and yes, you may end up shot. That is, if you hang out in places where people who shoot people hang out. I don't have any need to venture out to the ghettos of Oakland, Ca.
    Said better than I could, thanks.

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    you could get her to dress up like a muslim woman with a burqa on, nobody would think about touching her then.......not that theres anything wrong with burqas.........
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....:cool:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaysop View Post
    Weaver it's funny that your calling the thread now, especially
    Because you were the one starting the argumentive tone.
    If carrying a gun is the only way you feel safe then good on you. Millions of people live day to day without them and feel just fine.

    Most people who do carry are responsible people who cause no trouble And shine a positive light on the practice. Then you have the guys who tell you your stupid for not doing it, and then you have your "Tex Grebner" fcking retards who makes the other 95% look like what the other guy is describing.
    I get a little wound up when people use bs "studies" to scare people that are trying to educate themselves. I taught stats for many years so these bogus studies probably annoy me more than the average guy sorry...

    Everyone thinks they know whats best for everyone else which they dont... Offer advice but not mandates... While i agree that ar's arent best for home defense for most people , as mentioned in this thread, that doesnt mean it applies to everyone (as an example).

    Millions of people not carrying and being fine does not mean everyone is in that same situation...
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    Quote Originally Posted by weaverwins View Post
    Millions of people not carrying and being fine does not mean everyone is in that same situation...
    ...and what I am saying is that if you are being mugged, shot at, robbed, assaulted, etc. one must ask oneself - How the hell did I end up here?

    In my youth, I would be find myself in some pretty weird and potentially dangerous situations. I don't have that problem anymore because I choose to not be in them. I am not saying that random stuff doesn't happen to people, because they definitely do, but for most people who are smart about themselves, they don't have to put themselves in those situations. I mean, we learn this stuff when we're children...

    If you're walking down dark streets or parks at night by yourself or wandering off into ghettos where there are drug dealers and bad people, or touring through Juarez, Mexico... well... that's on YOU. Personally, I don't feel the need to do any of those things.

    The only civilians that I can think of that are true targets are jewelry/gem/precious metal store owners and people handling lots of cash or valuable commodities. For those of us who simply go to work and punch a clock we, for the most part, have a choice to not be victimized. This includes women.

    I'm sure there have been more women who have been date raped or beaten by their husband/partner/non-stranger than those who have been randomly attacked by a stranger. And I'm sure people are more exposed to the risk of death by heart disease, cancer and Type II diabetes than by gun shot wound. How many threads are there arguing over eating vegetables?

    But, I guess health risk prevention by taking medications with your breakfast isn't as exciting as carrying a gun.

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    Way to stay on topic guys... bravo...

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    Thanks Dion and a few others to get us back on track. I got up at 5 this morning and just got back home from work and see all the new posts. I think I'm gonna re-read all over again while I eat lunch (already 2pm here). Btw, Dion, the Dew Tour started this morning in Ocean City, MD and it's pretty nice to watch. I went riding in the crowd on the beach showing off my "bmx" skills to the tourist lol. I'm far from being able of jumping up ramps and such, but since all the pros were on the ramp, I was the best around hehe


    Suggestion for a personal defense weapon ?-imageuploadedbytapatalk1345141566.346618.jpg

    Suggestion for a personal defense weapon ?-imageuploadedbytapatalk1345141603.402023.jpg


    Thanks guys
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's L'axeman View Post
    you could get her to dress up like a muslim woman with a burqa on, nobody would think about touching her then.......not that theres anything wrong with burqas.........
    They were quite styling back in the day ... which was the year 800. Not sure they're as in now.

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    I'm all for guns, but has the CCW crew ever thought of just moving to a better neighborhood?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbnoobadam View Post
    Way to stay on topic guys... bravo...
    This forum is called "Off Camber (off topic)"...

    ...not "On Camber (on topic)"

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    I'm all for guns, but has the CCW crew ever thought of just moving to a better neighborhood?
    Thugs and criminals break in/rob from the the nicer neighborhoods because they have nicer things. My parents live in a VERY nice neighborhood and my dad has had his unmarked law enforcement vehicle broken into 3 times, his neighbors house twice, and over 45 car/home break ins over the last year. Everytime they caught someone it was someone from a lower end district of the city. 4 of the individuals have left the home they broke into via bodybag by the coroner.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSlow35th View Post
    Thugs and criminals break in/rob from the the nicer neighborhoods because they have nicer things. My parents live in a VERY nice neighborhood and my dad has had his unmarked law enforcement vehicle broken into 3 times, his neighbors house twice, and over 45 car/home break ins over the last year. Everytime they caught someone it was someone from a lower end district of the city. 4 of the individuals have left the home they broke into via bodybag by the coroner.
    Interesting ... and here I leave my car unlocked at night and "try" to remember to close the car hole! Maybe "nice" is relative.

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    I myself had 2 guns put in my face at once as I was robbed about 2 years ago. I actually appreciate the experience, as it gave me an unparalleled level of knowledge with self defense. Since the experience, I carry at least one pistol as often as is legal. This being said, it was the most terrifying experience of my life, and left me with long lasting mental implications. The longest lasting being a complete distrust of people I don't know, and always watching those around me in public, hands, movements, bulges on the hip, etc.

    My current fav is my Ruger LC9. It's a slim 9mm that is easily concealable in summer months. My fiancé also loves it and can conceal it easily (5'8" 120). Other choices of mine are my glock 26. My fiancé finds this one too heavy, even with 10-15 rd mags. I have mags that range from 10-33 rounds. (obviously not for carry...just a range toy). I also have a Ruger LCP. This is the pocket sized .380. Not much punch, but it will stop someone long enough to run away, often referred to as a "get off me" gun. I normally have the glock or lc9 on my hip, and lcp in a pocket as a backup. After all, the fastest reload is a second gun. Considering stats that even trained police only hit their shot 1/3 of the time, with two people in front of you, budget two shots for a kill (very conservative, especially in 9mm), you need 12 rounds to walk away.

    Lessons learned from having actually been in a situation where I could have legally and morally killed a person who was pointing a gun at my face:
    1) there is NO time. When "it" happens, there are exactly 0.0 seconds to react. This leads to...
    2) practice practice practice. Practice your draw, practice your aim, practice shooting from a draw. When the S hits the fan, you won't be thinking "I should probably click off my safety." you will either do it or not, based ENTIRELY on how you practiced. This brings me to...
    3) if you carry, always be ready, comfortable with, and prepared to shoot. This means round in the chamber, no safety. Round in the chamber because of #1, no time. (you're lucky if you have time to draw, let alone rack the slide). No safety because it's one more thing to go wrong, and if you aren't comfortable carrying with your safety off, you shouldn't be carrying at all.

    General points about carrying
    1) be comfortable. The more comfortable you are, the more often you carry. Crossbreed holsters are the best for the hip.
    2) the benefit of CONCEALED carry is the element of surprise. So please, don't be showing off your piece, keep it hidden until you need it. The same goes for open carry, while I support it in principle, I will never open carry, as it only draws attention to me.

    Hope this helps.

  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I thought you were a ninja? Shouldn't you show her how to used a rolled up magazine for self defense?


    THAT was a great self defense video. That volunteer took a pretty good beating from that magazine. I like this self defense video too, it was on the same page at You Tube.

    <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4bCyIAsSid8" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThunderBalls View Post
    I myself had 2 guns put in my face at once as I was robbed about 2 years ago. I actually appreciate the experience, as it gave me an unparalleled level of knowledge with self defense. Since the experience, I carry at least one pistol as often as is legal. This being said, it was the most terrifying experience of my life, and left me with long lasting mental implications. The longest lasting being a complete distrust of people I don't know, and always watching those around me in public, hands, movements, bulges on the hip, etc.

    My current fav is my Ruger LC9. It's a slim 9mm that is easily concealable in summer months. My fiancé also loves it and can conceal it easily (5'8" 120). Other choices of mine are my glock 26. My fiancé finds this one too heavy, even with 10-15 rd mags. I have mags that range from 10-33 rounds. (obviously not for carry...just a range toy). I also have a Ruger LCP. This is the pocket sized .380. Not much punch, but it will stop someone long enough to run away, often referred to as a "get off me" gun. I normally have the glock or lc9 on my hip, and lcp in a pocket as a backup. After all, the fastest reload is a second gun. Considering stats that even trained police only hit their shot 1/3 of the time, with two people in front of you, budget two shots for a kill (very conservative, especially in 9mm), you need 12 rounds to walk away.

    Lessons learned from having actually been in a situation where I could have legally and morally killed a person who was pointing a gun at my face:
    1) there is NO time. When "it" happens, there are exactly 0.0 seconds to react. This leads to...
    2) practice practice practice. Practice your draw, practice your aim, practice shooting from a draw. When the S hits the fan, you won't be thinking "I should probably click off my safety." you will either do it or not, based ENTIRELY on how you practiced. This brings me to...
    3) if you carry, always be ready, comfortable with, and prepared to shoot. This means round in the chamber, no safety. Round in the chamber because of #1, no time. (you're lucky if you have time to draw, let alone rack the slide). No safety because it's one more thing to go wrong, and if you aren't comfortable carrying with your safety off, you shouldn't be carrying at all.

    General points about carrying
    1) be comfortable. The more comfortable you are, the more often you carry. Crossbreed holsters are the best for the hip.
    2) the benefit of CONCEALED carry is the element of surprise. So please, don't be showing off your piece, keep it hidden until you need it. The same goes for open carry, while I support it in principle, I will never open carry, as it only draws attention to me.

    Hope this helps.
    Great post
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  137. #137
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    Cowardly unsigned negative rep stating "bullhsit". Care to tell me what I said that you believe to be BS? The fact that you replied with vague unsigned neg rep alone leads me to believe that you have no idea what you are talking about and you just want to run up and poke the bear then run away.
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    My wife's weapon of choice is really bad gas. She prefers the 50 cm3 SBD with a hummis finish. I sweat profusely which keeps most people at a respectable distance.
    Last edited by thegooddoctor; 08-17-2012 at 07:09 AM. Reason: Adding metrics
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  139. #139
    tl1
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    Some one carrying is also more likely to be shot and killed than a person not carrying. A little more food for thought.
    I wonder if this could be part of an accelerated global natural selection process perpetrated by God or "Mother Nature"?

    Packing heat may backfire. People who carry guns are far likelier to get shot – and killed – than those who are unarmed, a study of shooting victims in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, has found.
    It would be impractical – not to say unethical – to randomly assign volunteers to carry a gun or not and see what happens. So Charles Branas's team at the University of Pennsylvania analysed 677 shootings over two-and-a-half years to discover whether victims were carrying at the time, and compared them to other Philly residents of similar age, sex and ethnicity. The team also accounted for other potentially confounding differences, such as the socioeconomic status of their neighbourhood.
    Despite the US having the highest rate of firearms-related homicide in the industrialised world, the relationship between gun culture and violence is poorly understood. A recent study found that treating violence like an infectious disease led to a dramatic fall in shootings and killings.
    Overall, Branas's study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher.


    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html


  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    I wonder if this could be part of an accelerated global natural selection process perpetrated by God or "Mother Nature"?
    I appreciate the thought, and do agree that on the surface, it looks like carrying makes you mor susceptible to being shot due to natural selection.

    Looking deeper, however, the fact that remains is that those who get shot while carrying......were shot by someone who was carrying. This to me Makes the data less convincing, since for every person killed by a gun while holding a gun, another gunman survived.

    How do you protect yourself from this? Practice practice practice. Carry the largest caliber you're comfortable with, and don't ask for trouble.

  141. #141
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    If you have a shop that will let you rent a gun, that is going to be a big step in the selection process. Regardless of what you may like, if it doesn't fit her hand well and she can't manipulate it simply then it's not going to be a good choice. Many will harp on caliber which is important but not nearly as much as shot placement which comes with training. If you can't hit your target it doesn't matter whether it is a .22 or .45- you got to hit it for it to count.

    I would never leave a firearm in a car unless it is a have to situation. If someone were to find out that you leave it the car it can quickly become an easy target for theft. It then goes from being an asset to a liability.

    My personal carry gun is either a Smith and Wesson M&P9 or M&P9c. Most times I prefer the full size 9 due to the stability of the longer barrel, bigger grip and the fact that I have a light on it. Sometimes when dress dictates, I carry the 9c because it is smaller and easier to conceal. I train with both though and put about 6k rounds through them a year (combined).

    My home defense gun is different as I prefer a long gun. My AR is my go to gun and a no brainer. With a 14.5" barrel it is short enough to be maneuverable and long enough to be stable. the 30 rounds of mixed ammo (frangible/ defense) will stop someone cold. I use an Aimpoint T-1 red dot which is the most reliable sight out there...mine has been on for nearly 3 years now (and by on I mean turned on). Add to that 500 lumens of light and you have enough power to blind then stop anyone real quick. If all else fails I have an 8lbs baseball bat.

    For home defense, I prefer a long gun over a pistol.

  142. #142
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    The sig and kel tec P32 pocket size models are a great choice for any one to be protected without hassle.

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