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  1. #1
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    Self-esteem link to job

    Does anyone link your Self-esteem to the current job?

    Do you feel awful when you get layoff Orr or fired?

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    Believe me, some of us can lack self esteem in the best of circumstances. May contribute but probably not the cause except for situations with abusive management/clients.
    dang

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    my job - band director/percussion instructor - definitely defines me, and is a very "public" job, so everyone knows when I am doing well or not. My attitude is totally defined by how successful the day was...

    I have been at the same job for over 25 years, and plan to retire from here, so I don't know what it is like to switch jobs, but I do know that I do not want to stop doing what I do...I built this program from scratch, so all of my blood, sweat and tears are here. I dread the day that I physically can not do the job anymore...that will be a major issue to my mental well being for sure...and I have still not met some of my goals for the group yet, even though we are very successful, so that still drives me
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    There are plenty of studies that link self esteem to jobs. I'm sure any sense of failure (losing a job, poor performance and so on) would have a negative impact on how you feel about yourself, especially if you're the sole wage earner with a family.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    Does anyone link your Self-esteem to the current job?

    Do you feel awful when you get layoff Orr or fired?

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    Isnít there already a viagra thread in the 50+ forum?
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    I've never gotten much intrinsic value from my modality to make money. While I have a college degree I've never used it. I decided from a young age that I would value free time above all else, at 48 I'm not so sure that was the healthiest perspective.

    My current girlfriend is a winemaker and she's regarded as a badass in her career. She's extremely passionate about what she does and it's very rewarding to her...not to mention we get tons of high stock wine for free. Being around this really drives home the value in doing what you love for your modality in life.

    As they say, balance is important. Being an all or nothing guy this never really quite set in with me. I don't know, I hope some life lessons aren't learned too late.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    I decided from a young age that I would value free time above all else, at 48 I'm not so sure that was the healthiest perspective.
    I'm in the same boat as you, I have a LOT going in life right now, but I do have the rather large looming question not too far off of "what do I want to do with the rest of my life?" I like building skatepark and it affords me a totally flexible schedule and good money, and its a very rewarding job, but in many ways it is absolutely a "young man's job"...

    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    As they say, balance is important. Being an all or nothing guy this never really quite set in with me. I don't know, I hope some life lessons aren't learned too late.
    Yep...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
    I'm in the same boat as you, I have a LOT going in life right now, but I do have the rather large looming question not too far off of "what do I want to do with the rest of my life?" I like building skatepark and it affords me a totally flexible schedule and good money, and its a very rewarding job, but in many ways it is absolutely a "young man's job"...



    Yep...
    The problem with a ďyoung mans jobĒ is most people donít realize it or wonít admit it to themselves until their body has already taken a beating. The best thing to do IMO, is start investing in a retirement fund as early as possible. I was very fortunate to do just that starting at the age of 19. Iím not well off by any means, but I was able to retire at 46 and now I live the good life. I could go back to work and make good money combined with my monthly retirement check, but I have chosen to enjoy my good years on less income. I do whatever I want, every day, without the headache of a 9-5 job. To all of you young people, I canít stress enough that you need to be investing now. It will pay off way sooner than you think.
    DAAAANG...that was janky

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir kayakalot View Post
    Isnít there already a viagra thread in the 50+ forum?
    Was that the one moderated by Scott O? That guy is awesome.
    Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    Was that the one moderated by Scott O? That guy is awesome.
    Yes he is, just keep him away from your gf. And mother.
    DAAAANG...that was janky

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir kayakalot View Post
    The problem with a ďyoung mans jobĒ is most people donít realize it or wonít admit it to themselves until their body has already taken a beating. The best thing to do IMO, is start investing in a retirement fund as early as possible. I was very fortunate to do just that starting at the age of 19. Iím not well off by any means, but I was able to retire at 46 and now I live the good life. I could go back to work and make good money combined with my monthly retirement check, but I have chosen to enjoy my good years on less income. I do whatever I want, every day, without the headache of a 9-5 job. To all of you young people, I canít stress enough that you need to be investing now. It will pay off way sooner than you think.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir kayakalot View Post
    The problem with a ďyoung mans jobĒ is most people donít realize it or wonít admit it to themselves until their body has already taken a beating.
    I was referring to the travel more than the physical aspect of it, it actually keeps me really fit though. My body is more messed up from high speed snowboard slams and 3 decades of skateboarding than working, but my work is certainly no walk in the park.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir kayakalot View Post
    I do whatever I want, every day, without the headache of a 9-5 job.
    Many people can't be happy like that though, I'm not sure how much is nature vs nurture, but "being productive" is genuinely a notable part of general sense of well being for many people, I can't quite figure out how to "break" this connection, but I know its real for many people myself included.

    Investing early is certainly a great plan, there is no doubt about that!

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    ^ Jack i think it's about who you're being productive for? The happiest retired folks are probably busy bodies. When my grandpa retired from factory work he just devoted more time to the family vegetable farm and farmer's markets up until Alzheimer's put him out of commission.
    dang

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    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    ^ Jack i think it's about who you're being productive for? The happiest retired folks are probably busy bodies. When my grandpa retired from factory work he just devoted more time to the family vegetable farm and farmer's markets up until Alzheimer's put him out of commission.
    This is so true. I work every day. Iíve got 12 ricks of oak in the barn right now to prove that, all split by hand with a 12lb splitting maul, and Iím not a big guy. With 80 acres and a 6 mile bike trail with 1400í of elevation change, there is always something to do. I have so many hobbies I still canít find time to do everything I want.

    NDD...I hope your grandpa got many enjoyable years before the Alzheimerís.
    DAAAANG...that was janky

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    I am just tired and exhausted. I want just want to sleep forever

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    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    ^ Jack i think it's about who you're being productive for? The happiest retired folks are probably busy bodies.
    Staying busy is a big piece of happiness, I have a lot of free time, but I'm rarely ever idle, I'm always tinkering with something, or helping friends with projects, but, despite being more busy than I'd like when I'm not working for money, I do at times struggle a bit with contentment, getting divorced certainly does not help that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir kayakalot View Post
    This is so true. I work every day. Iíve got 12 ricks of oak in the barn right now to prove that, all split by hand with a 12lb splitting maul, and Iím not a big guy. With 80 acres and a 6 mile bike trail with 1400í of elevation change, there is always something to do. I have so many hobbies I still canít find time to do everything I want.
    Despite not being retired, I'm in a similar boat, the bold part especially.

    Having lived in a ski town/mountain town for 25 years I've seen people become somewhat complacent, my buddy has a name for the mind set that afflicts many many people in mountain towns, "Failure to evolve". I'll admit I've gotten caught by it, but I'm trying to pull out of it now...

    Mountain towns are great, and they are not, there is an underlying foundation of hedonism that can have some notably negative effects in the longer term, National geographic actually wrote an article about it, well, it was about high suicide rates in mountain towns, but the underlying issue is the "live for the moment" mindset that permeates mountain towns.

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/a...alarming-rate/

  20. #20
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    I'll never be lack of things to do, just lack of time to do them. I'm not the busybody type, at all. I require and enjoy my downtime and am quite deliberate in what I devote my energy to otherwise.

    I think the young man's job thing is a bit of a conundrum. Many people who should of aged out of that modality are likely stuck there. Weather poor decision making or foresight or just simply don't possess the life tools or mental fortitude to do otherwise.

    It's definitely hard to argue against the logic of investing. However I can't help but wonder if we're on the precipice of a different paradigm there. Whether global warming, or AI, or robotics, or wealth concentration, or world conflict, or the fact that our country seems to be in the gutter, any number of things could offset that trajectory. Who knows. I certainly could have invested smarter starting earlier but now I have a big chunk of money and I'm not quite sure what I'm going to do with it. Probably buy property.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
    "Failure to evolve"
    I'm sure I have a touch of that and the living in the moment thing. I'm a late bloomer generally and have been at all stages in life. The plus side is I'm still young at heart and have a zest for life. I'm also very physically fit and aesthetically appear much younger. On the neutral end, most of my friends are much younger than me these days. On a negative side, I certainly could have set myself up better in life than I have.

    It's hard to parse these out though. I didn't have a lot of formal external direction in my life as a youngster and I just don't desire the same things "normal" people desire. I've always kind of been hyper aware of making sure my direction and desires are coming from me, not from the pressures of society which I think is the main trap most people fall into. I guess in the end being happy is all that really matters.

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    Don't save your money. Interest rates are what, like 1% if you're lucky? Inflation is officially like 2% or something, in reality more like 8% on average. This is a deliberate ploy by the financial elites to screw everyone over. It's actually a thing. Google "IMF financial repression". Saving money is the same as burning 7% out of every dollar you put in the bank or under our pillow, per year.

    Instead use your money to buy real assets that hold value or will appreciate in the future as inflation increases even more. The question is whether to go into debt to buy inflating assets. For example, a mortgage to buy a house in California would have made you tons of money over the last 20 years. Your mortgage stays the same but your asset increases several fold. But that run may be over and the trend may reverse. It's hard to predict.

    Rhodium is a good buy IMO, for the long run.

    https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft...f/reinhart.pdf
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    I am just tired and exhausted. I want just want to sleep forever
    Man, you seem to make a lot of threads like this, and part of me feels like its just playing to a character role now, but even if they're only half genuine I feel like you need to get the hell out of where ever you are and what ever you're doing and just reset things. Like the thread recently with the dude who moved across country and lived on a boat. What ever you're doing doesn't seem to be working for you, there's a great big world out there and maybe now isn't the best time ever, but it's better than leaving it another twenty years until you're totally worn down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by str8edgMTBMXer View Post
    my job - band director/percussion instructor - definitely defines me
    My son was the Bari player in the Jazz Band and Symphonic Band from 7th - 12th grade. I always told him he would look back on his days in band as one of the highlights of junior and senior high school. And he does. Some of his peer group went on to music school at the collegiate level.

    The bands were good a couple of those years, and he was awarded outstanding soloist a couple times at festivals.

    His first band teacher always said if you do what you love then you never work a day in your life, and he loved being band director.

    So good on you. I always appreciated what the arts instructors brought to the overall education experience.

    My job on the other hand - let's just say I don't love it. It does drag me down sometimes.

    But I can tell from my post, looking back at what I just wrote, that being a dad defines me and drives my mood far more than my job ever will. Thankfully so.

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    Always think long term.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir kayakalot View Post
    The problem with a ďyoung mans jobĒ is most people donít realize it or wonít admit it to themselves until their body has already taken a beating. The best thing to do IMO, is start investing in a retirement fund as early as possible. I was very fortunate to do just that starting at the age of 19. Iím not well off by any means, but I was able to retire at 46 and now I live the good life. I could go back to work and make good money combined with my monthly retirement check, but I have chosen to enjoy my good years on less income. I do whatever I want, every day, without the headache of a 9-5 job. To all of you young people, I canít stress enough that you need to be investing now. It will pay off way sooner than you think.
    Nice!

    At 46 (well, starting ~38 y/o) I finally found something I want to do long-term, lol.

    I've done so many awesome things though... grew gourmet mushrooms, owned an auto/4x4 fabrication shop, got a Mech Engineering degree and worked for the world's largest wind turbine company, and more... not sure I'd trade that for anything else but retirement is an interesting proposition.

    IDK, even if retired I'd continue to do what I'm doing now. My audio company has a new speaker coming out soon! If there are any wealthy audiophiles out there looking for new speakers in the ~$40k range let me know!

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    I had an intense headache on that day. my heart was beating really strong. I could hear blood vessels pumping in my ear drums.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    If there are any wealthy audiophiles out there looking for new speakers in the ~$40k range let me know!
    How much for a pair?
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladmo View Post
    My son was the Bari player in the Jazz Band and Symphonic Band from 7th - 12th grade. I always told him he would look back on his days in band as one of the highlights of junior and senior high school. And he does. Some of his peer group went on to music school at the collegiate level.

    The bands were good a couple of those years, and he was awarded outstanding soloist a couple times at festivals.

    His first band teacher always said if you do what you love then you never work a day in your life, and he loved being band director.

    So good on you. I always appreciated what the arts instructors brought to the overall education experience.
    thanks man!! And I am glad to hear that he had a great experience with band. My dad's advice about seeking a career was pretty much exactly as the bolded words...and that really motivated me. He hated his job, and i saw what it did to him.

    His other advice was to "make sure you love what you do when you are in your 40's. You spend more time at your job than anything else, so that time has to be positive, or it will effect your life away from work"

    I took it, and went down my path. I am also the type who defines success as happiness in my day to day ops, and not by how much money/stuff I have. So I live pretty minimal, but am saving for later. When I do retire, I want to be able to do whatever I want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ladmo View Post
    My job on the other hand - let's just say I don't love it. It does drag me down sometimes.

    But I can tell from my post, looking back at what I just wrote, that being a dad defines me and drives my mood far more than my job ever will. Thankfully so.
    I would agree!!
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir kayakalot View Post
    This is so true. I work every day. Iíve got 12 ricks of oak in the barn right now to prove that, all split by hand with a 12lb splitting maul, and Iím not a big guy. With 80 acres and a 6 mile bike trail with 1400í of elevation change, there is always something to do. I have so many hobbies I still canít find time to do everything I want.

    NDD...I hope your grandpa got many enjoyable years before the Alzheimerís.
    Ideally I would work and be industrious every day. I'm more happy when I do and I do it more when I'm happy. I have a great life. Job I enjoy, awesome wife, quaint little house, supportive family. Unfortunately I have more days than I like that I wake up and just "don't feel it" or don't feel at all. It's a pretty negative cycle, failing to do, feeling guilty, avoidance behavior, ad nauseum. If Picard is even half serious here, the dude needs to be focusing on external factors for sure, but has to recognize that a new job, apartment, whatever won't necessarily fix anything. Sometimes what you need to focus on changing is yourself and the way you approach life, as well.
    dang

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    How much for a pair?
    $39k.

    It's a lot of cash but compared to my competitors that sell through dealers my speaker is a far better value. I'll be selling speakers that have been completed and are ready to go, direct to the customer.

    My 1st speaker is a 3-way horn speaker with high sensitivity, intended to be used with a single ended tube amp. Bass is active, it has a 15" woofer. The drivers, crossover components and wiring are all as good as it gets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    Ideally I would work and be industrious every day. I'm more happy when I do and I do it more when I'm happy. I have a great life. Job I enjoy, awesome wife, quaint little house, supportive family. Unfortunately I have more days than I like that I wake up and just "don't feel it" or don't feel at all.
    I keep busy with all sorts of shit that interests me, but like you, I do have days mired without any ambition. Recently I've started working with my doctors on optimizing my hormone levels to jump start my energy levels. It is definitely cyclical in nature.
    Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by str8edgMTBMXer View Post
    my job - band director/percussion instructor - definitely defines me, and is a very "public" job, so everyone knows when I am doing well or not. My attitude is totally defined by how successful the day was...

    Make sure the students tighten up the tempo and keep those wrists loose!

    Have them learn 'Fear Inoculum's 12/8 and 5/4 stuff...and 11/8.
    I've been on pause, but I'm shaking off the rust...

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir kayakalot View Post
    The problem with a ďyoung mans jobĒ is most people donít realize it or wonít admit it to themselves until their body has already taken a beating. The best thing to do IMO, is start investing in a retirement fund as early as possible. I was very fortunate to do just that starting at the age of 19. Iím not well off by any means, but I was able to retire at 46 and now I live the good life. I could go back to work and make good money combined with my monthly retirement check, but I have chosen to enjoy my good years on less income. I do whatever I want, every day, without the headache of a 9-5 job. To all of you young people, I canít stress enough that you need to be investing now. It will pay off way sooner than you think.

    Are you listening, Picard?
    I've been on pause, but I'm shaking off the rust...

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    I am just tired and exhausted. I want just want to sleep forever

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    I've been on pause, but I'm shaking off the rust...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    I had an intense headache on that day. my heart was beating really strong. I could hear blood vessels pumping in my ear drums.

    Or, to once again quote Nirvana...

    "I'm so tired, I can't sleep..."
    I've been on pause, but I'm shaking off the rust...

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    I keep busy with all sorts of shit that interests me, but like you, I do have days mired without any ambition. Recently I've started working with my doctors on optimizing my hormone levels to jump start my energy levels. It is definitely cyclical in nature.
    Good to be working on it. That's an important thing we neglect because we try to "tough it out" or just hope things get better. That's like driving your truck every day with a worn out u-joint hoping it'll slip into some configuration that's less loud and bouncy or just saying it's fine if you never drive over 40 mph. Neglect only makes things more catastrophic in a SHTF situation. Trying to just change jobs or something is like replacing that truck with a similarly aged truck that doesn't yet have that problem, neglecting maintenance, and then being distraught when a similar problem occurs.
    dang

  38. #38
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    I'm back in Vancouver for a few weeks doing the Grouse Grind every couple days. Holy cow that makes a difference. I've been mostly on Vancouver Island most of the pandemic which has less opportunity for intense physical workout. You can get exercise yes, but not this intense so easily. I'm seeing an improvement in only a week. I was getting a bit of a belly on the island and now it's starting to go away and I feel great. Yesterday I flew up like I was 30 again. I see why people get fat and unhealthy without this kind of exercise.

    Also I eat turmeric, vitamin D and zinc (that's for Covid protection) every day and I'm going to start vitamin C every day. And elderberry syrup every day.
    All I am saying is give pizza chants

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    I'm the best in my area ( San Diego) at what I do, but due to the Covid phenomena, my work has been shut down.
    My self esteem would be doing a whole lot better if I was actually doing, achieving excellent results, and making $$$$$!

    As one the master practitioners I apprenticed with for 20 years once put it. "Ray', The difference is this: Americans work to live; Chinese live in order to work".

    That's where my self-esteem comes from.

    Good thread, Picard.
    Just call me Ray

  40. #40
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    I got layed off and had to take a lesser job that I hate....

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    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    Good to be working on it. That's an important thing we neglect because we try to "tough it out" or just hope things get better. That's like driving your truck every day with a worn out u-joint hoping it'll slip into some configuration that's less loud and bouncy or just saying it's fine if you never drive over 40 mph. Neglect only makes things more catastrophic in a SHTF situation.
    Do you mean a man shouldn't try and open a new restaurant when he's dealing with chronic pain from two badly failing hips? I've learned my lesson about "toughing it out".
    Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

  42. #42
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    Unfortunately, far too many of us equate self worth to what we do. Do what you love and then find a way to make a living doing it.
    Will you shut up, man?!

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    I realised a while back that I will never be happy in any job, so I quit trying to be happy and just do it so I can enjoy my time off. I used to tie my self worth to my work and it drove me to near suicide (I actually had it all planned out).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir kayakalot View Post
    The problem with a ďyoung mans jobĒ is most people donít realize it or wonít admit it to themselves until their body has already taken a beating. The best thing to do IMO, is start investing in a retirement fund as early as possible. I was very fortunate to do just that starting at the age of 19. Iím not well off by any means, but I was able to retire at 46 and now I live the good life. I could go back to work and make good money combined with my monthly retirement check, but I have chosen to enjoy my good years on less income. I do whatever I want, every day, without the headache of a 9-5 job. To all of you young people, I canít stress enough that you need to be investing now. It will pay off way sooner than you think.
    I wish my ex would have understood this. I was decent with money when I was young, but my ex burned every spare dollar and then some for our 20 year marriage. At 39 I ended that officially and am basically starting from scratch. I got a union job at 35 and I am hoping that between saving and pension I can retire at 55 (soonest I can retire and receive a pension).

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    Do you mean a man shouldn't try and open a new restaurant when he's dealing with chronic pain from two badly failing hips? I've learned my lesson about "toughing it out".
    Ha! Yes, that would be extremely difficult even if you had bozo capital to just hire help.

    Sidewalk... glad you made the choices you did. You can move on from a job or marriage, but not some other decisions...
    dang

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    Ha! Yes, that would be extremely difficult even if you had bozo capital to just hire help.
    Nope...pockets weren't that deep. My business partner was good and bought my half. I did that grind ( literally grind, I have the x-rays) for about 18 months.
    Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    Sidewalk... glad you made the choices you did. You can move on from a job or marriage, but not some other decisions...
    I was active duty, somewhere in the Atlantic ocean. My options were limited.

  47. #47
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    Self-esteem link to job-dilbert_no_life.gif
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    Does anyone link your Self-esteem to the current job?

    Do you feel awful when you get layoff Orr or fired?

    Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
    you are always complaining about work related depression. you are obviously in the wrong profession, but not smart enough to realize it...


  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    Make sure the students tighten up the tempo and keep those wrists loose!

    Have them learn 'Fear Inoculum's 12/8 and 5/4 stuff...and 11/8.
    definitely!!!

    and I will have to write some flam or accent/tap exercises to those songs!!
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Unfortunately, far too many of us equate self worth to what we do. Do what you love and then find a way to make a living doing it.
    Since childhood my dad forbade from studying what I wanted to do and promised me the only way I'd ever get a job is if I became an engineer (like him...) Otherwise I'd be poor forever. Most parents would be ecstatic to have a straight A high school student super enthusiastic about university. Not mine...

    Even though logically I never agreed, it still fvcked me up, to this day.
    All I am saying is give pizza chants

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radium View Post
    As one the master practitioners I apprenticed with for 20 years once put it. "Ray', The difference is this: Americans work to live; Chinese live in order to work".
    This is a relative observation. As that same cliche' often goes this way: Americans live to work, Europeans work to live.

    Internalizing importance of work prestige in your life:

    Asians > Merica > Euro
    Working to stomp out redundancy, I repeat, working to stomp out redundancy.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    I keep busy with all sorts of shit that interests me, but like you, I do have days mired without any ambition. Recently I've started working with my doctors on optimizing my hormone levels to jump start my energy levels. It is definitely cyclical in nature.
    Soon you'll be increasing your aerobic threshold and engaging in relations like you're 25 again!
    I've been on pause, but I'm shaking off the rust...

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_BC View Post
    Since childhood my dad forbade from studying what I wanted to do and promised me the only way I'd ever get a job is if I became an engineer (like him...) Otherwise I'd be poor forever. Most parents would be ecstatic to have a straight A high school student super enthusiastic about university. Not mine...

    Even though logically I never agreed, it still fvcked me up, to this day.
    Are or were you an engineer? As a parent, it's hard to let go of the idea that encouraging (or mandating in some cases) anything less for your child than pursuing a viable profession is poor guidance. Do I let my kid go to trade school, for example, or enroll in college where statistically he or she is bound to lead a more financially stable life?
    I've been on pause, but I'm shaking off the rust...

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Unfortunately, far too many of us equate self worth to what we do. Do what you love and then find a way to make a living doing it.
    Like Chris Rock advised to his kids, you can't be anything....do what you're good at and what somebody is willing to pay you for.
    I've been on pause, but I'm shaking off the rust...

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    Are or were you an engineer? As a parent, it's hard to let go of the idea that encouraging (or mandating in some cases) anything less for your child than pursuing a viable profession is poor guidance. Do I let my kid go to trade school, for example, or enroll in college where statistically he or she is bound to lead a more financially stable life?
    For my son's (now 30 and 32), it was obvious one was college bound and one was not. For the college bound one, his path was pretty straight forward in High School. For my youngest there was no vocational training available whatsoever in High School.

    Both boys are now quite successful in their selected fields, but it took awhile longer for the youngest. Had he had a vocational training path available to him sooner, he (and others like him) would find their way far sooner.

    With aging and failing infrastructure in this country, we need to train our kids in the hands-on fields that we'll be needing.
    Will you shut up, man?!

  56. #56
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    I told my son many times there are going to be several appealing career choices and there is nothing wrong with factoring in expected compensation when deciding between them.

    The other thing I've told him many times is that people will tell you that money won't necessarily make you happy, and I do agree with that, but what they don't tell you is that not having money is very highly correlated to being unhappy.

    The fact is, in my entire career, the majority of people I've come into contact with didn't really like what they did when it came down to it. A means to an end, unfortunately. That's how it is for me.

    Happily, I am rounding the final curve and am starting to see the retirement finish line. That'll be nice.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    For my son's (now 30 and 32), it was obvious one was college bound and one was not. For the college bound one, his path was pretty straight forward in High School. For my youngest there was no vocational training available whatsoever in High School.

    Both boys are now quite successful in their selected fields, but it took awhile longer for the youngest. Had he had a vocational training path available to him sooner, he (and others like him) would find their way far sooner.

    With aging and failing infrastructure in this country, we need to train our kids in the hands-on fields that we'll be needing.
    Good post and to build on that a bit, many many vocational careers will likely never be replaced by robots or AI. Unfortunately a whole swath of middle income "white collar" jobs will be and are. Something like 3 out of 10 trade jobs go unfilled right now so demand, security, and salary are rising quickly.
    Another point I'd make on this that's relevant to the thread is job satisfaction. I've had several trainee's as of late, 3 infact, that are college educated and left somewhat good paying careers to come into the business I work in. They all say the same exact thing...I got sick of sitting in a building all day staring at a computer screen. Just yesterday I started a younger guy who came down from Seattle. He's was a highly paid programmer but couldn't stand it anymore. The amount of relief in this guy to get into a different modality is palpable.

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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    Good post and to build on that a bit, many many vocational careers will likely never be replaced by robots or AI. Unfortunately a whole swath of middle income "white collar" jobs will be and are. Something like 3 out of 10 trade jobs go unfilled right now so demand, security, and salary are rising quickly.
    Another point I'd make on this that's relevant to the thread is job satisfaction. I've had several trainee's as of late, 3 infact, that are college educated and left somewhat good paying careers to come into the business I work in. They all say the same exact thing...I got sick of sitting in a building all day staring at a computer screen. Just yesterday I started a younger guy who came down from Seattle. He's was a highly paid programmer but couldn't stand it anymore. The amount of relief in this guy to get into a different modality is palpable.

    Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk
    My son without the degree is killing it right now, to be honest. He's now making a tick under $150k/yr. with OT. His wife is a nurse and on track to come very close to that next year. The trades can lead to something VERY good, once you put in your time and pay your "dues".
    Will you shut up, man?!

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladmo View Post
    My job on the other hand - let's just say I don't love it. It does drag me down sometimes.

    But I can tell from my post, looking back at what I just wrote, that being a dad defines me and drives my mood far more than my job ever will. Thankfully so.
    Yep. I was laid off from my job during the Great Recession. My son was in kindergarten at the time and I was a stay at home dad for a while. It was beyond awesome to spend so much time with him during his critical growth years. We had so much fun together that I didn't miss my job at all.

    I should add that I could see the recession coming and had saved a fair bit of money beforehand which made things easier.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    With aging and failing infrastructure in this country, we need to train our kids in the hands-on fields that we'll be needing.
    Amen!
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    I should add that I could see the recession coming and had saved a fair bit of money beforehand which made things easier.
    I work for a non profit organization so the wife and I always make sure we have enough saved in case we need it. I think it's generally a wise thing you do if you can.

    If I wanted to be rolling in dough I'd regret listening to my parents. They were adamant I go to college, and I did get very good grades in high school, so I see where they were coming from. I said fine but I'll study what I want. My mom wasn't crazy about learning that ecologists and botanists don't make tons of money. There's a part of me that wants to learn traditional stonemasonry partially because I need to work on my own house and partially as a hobby/backup plan. Despite being in a city with many old brick homes there are a lot of poor practices going around: painting brick or fieldstone foundations (or using Drylok...), using mortar that's too hard, hiring the kind of people that use grinders on vertical mortar joints, patching mortar with caulk, etc. The problem is it's not something that a lot of folks can afford to have done. I can't, that's why I'm going to learn.

    One should have a passion, perhaps, but they should also be diverse in their interests.
    dang

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    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    My mom wasn't crazy about learning that ecologists and botanists don't make tons of money.
    Neither do environmental geologists it turns out.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    For my son's (now 30 and 32), it was obvious one was college bound and one was not. For the college bound one, his path was pretty straight forward in High School. For my youngest there was no vocational training available whatsoever in High School.

    Both boys are now quite successful in their selected fields, but it took awhile longer for the youngest. Had he had a vocational training path available to him sooner, he (and others like him) would find their way far sooner.

    With aging and failing infrastructure in this country, we need to train our kids in the hands-on fields that we'll be needing.
    They have some really good deals around me we looked into when my son was in high school (last year). There is a trade school nearby that he could attend for free. And there is a big electrical/plumbing company that has a serious program for on-the-job training. We talked to him about these options and if they would be right for him, but he chose to go to college.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  64. #64
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    Yes I'm an engineer now. I make peanuts. I make $5 an hour more than the receptionist at the front desk, back when there was a front desk. My company refuses to pay me fairly, in fact they have docked (stole) everyone in the company 10% indefinitely while Covid is going on. I like my projects and work situation so it's hard to put my foot down and threaten to leave since I don't have another option lined up. Several people have left due to wages and the company basically says, sayonara! We got lots more engineers willing to take your place!!

    Out of my high school friends there seems to be an inverse relationship between education and wages. The friend who owns the $3 million house I rent for $500 is swimming in money and he went no further than high school. He started a small business and was driven.

    I think it has more to do with drive and passion than education although education can definitely help. That was before the economy went to hell so now small business might not be a good avenue.
    All I am saying is give pizza chants

  65. #65
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    JATC....
    It is entirely plausible to accumulate over a Million in retirement doing Electric Work, Plumbing, Pipe Fitting, or HVAC.

    When I was in Jr High back in the day the teachers and guidance counselor preached ďGo to college so you wonít have to work for your money, you can make it with your brains, not your back.Ē

    Then when I went to work all I heard was ďWork smarter, not harder.Ē

    Both are patterns people follow with reasonable success.

    But those who excel ďWork Harder and SmarterĒ.
    The two are not mutually exclusive.

    Above all, choose a mate carefully.
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    JATC....
    It is entirely plausible to accumulate over a Million in retirement doing Electric Work, Plumbing, Pipe Fitting, or HVAC.

    When I was in Jr High back in the day the teachers and guidance counselor preached ďGo to college so you wonít have to work for your money, you can make it with your brains, not your back.Ē

    Then when I went to work all I heard was ďWork smarter, not harder.Ē

    Both are patterns people follow with reasonable success.

    But those who excel ďWork Harder and SmarterĒ.
    The two are not mutually exclusive.

    Above all, choose a mate carefully.
    Agreed to all of the above.

    #1 Son studied Viticulture and pest management and is now a Vineyard Manager for E&J Gallo. #2 Son is an Electrician for PG&E. They're both doing what they love and working long hours, but making WAY more $$ than I am.

    And their wives have become our daughters. BONUS!
    Will you shut up, man?!

  67. #67
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    About 5 years ago I realized that my livelihood (and my significant other) had largely taken over my existence. I began to define myself by both those things. I changed both and have never looked back. Total freedom since doing so to enjoy unabated all the other really important things in life. I donít regret a thing. My past has allowed my future, but what a price to have paid.
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  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Agreed to all of the above.

    #1 Son studied Viticulture and pest management and is now a Vineyard Manager for E&J Gallo. #2 Son is an Electrician for PG&E. They're both doing what they love and working long hours, but making WAY more $$ than I am.

    And their wives have become our daughters. BONUS!
    Putting aside perhaps the labour market, the most financially successful people I see are not the ones putting in huge hours. IMHO, some kind of balance is required to optimize efficiency, innovation, collaboration and plain old getting the ball over the goal line on things. Working something less than balls to the wall hours seems to me to be better in all respects. Obviously there are exceptions, but as a general rule, the ďwork harderĒ approach, while intuitively logical, is (IMHO) counter productive.
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    E-bike?.....

    Balance is important
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    E-bike?.....

    Balance is important
    Like I said in another thread, I have never owned an e-bike, and never thought I would own one until I couldnít ride unassisted anymore. Never owned a fat bike either because I have always spent the winters commuting to work (which I no longer do with COVID) and lifting. To me, e-bikes make a lot of sense for fatties. Perfect combo to extend a great 2020 season we had (and preserve my mental well being - I need regular strenuous cardio or shit goes downhill on me fast). [I bought two - one for me and one for my daughter - they are still in transit and expected to land at my LBS sometime next week.]

    There are enough blockers in the winter trying to get my daughter out there biking, instead of/in addition to skiing. This will go a long way to erasing those. Plus wtf. Life is short.

    At least this is what I am thinking/hoping.

    Sincere apologies to anyone offended by this. I appreciate itís a polarizing topic. Trust me - not long ago I was the last guy to have thrown down on an e-bike, let alone two. This made sense to me and I went for it. I guess time will tell if it was a dumb decision. At least I will get to spend lots more time now with my favorite biking partner ever. Really, my only biking partner for the last few years. Thatís what drove this. There is NOTHING more precious to me than time with my daughter. Combining that with biking is heaven on earth for me.
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  71. #71
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    If I could make bank working OT to build my financial security I'd do it. At least over the short term. When I first started my current job I had no money and didn't make much either. I worked a lot of weekends and after work doing side jobs to bridge that gap. Now I barely work a 40 hour week because I'm much more comfortable. I also know a lot of pensions are calculated, in part, on the last 3 years of income so people in those positions tend to work a ton of overtime in those last three years of their career.
    I think the difference being, and the American way, is spending every dime you make on materialism whether you make 40K a year or 400,000 a year. I know far too many people that just simply worked the best years of their life away. So many people that had hopes of traveling or doing this and that and just always thought they'd have time to do it but never did. Those are the trappings of capitalism, at least in America, from my perspective.

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  72. #72
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    More power to you.
    You work much harder at riding than I do.
    And as a result you are much better at it.
    And the e-bike fattie does make sense.
    Itís harder and smarter....
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    ...I know far too many people that just simply worked the best years of their life away. So many people that had hopes of traveling or doing this and that and just always thought they'd have time to do it but never did. Those are the trappings of capitalism, at least in America, from my perspective.

    Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk
    I recently attended a leadership symposium where this was one of the topics for discussion. There is a term now used to describe what you are describing. This fits with my post above. The most tragic thing (again, putting the labour space aside for the moment), is that most actually perform more poorly working harder, and are far less successful. And then they finally realize this after it is too late, and that they simultaneously lost all the best years of their life doing so.

    The biggest problem though is the American Dream fallacy - the widespread belief that the skyís the limit with hard work. Direct relationship. Itís simply not true. Itís a lose-lose proposition. Not only are you NOT optimizing your financial and occupational success and job satisfaction, but you lose at life as well. Family, friends, passions. All gone. And then itís too late.
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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    If I could make bank working OT to build my financial security I'd do it. At least over the short term. When I first started my current job I had no money and didn't make much either. I worked a lot of weekends and after work doing side jobs to bridge that gap. Now I barely work a 40 hour week because I'm much more comfortable. I also know a lot of pensions are calculated, in part, on the last 3 years of income so people in those positions tend to work a ton of overtime in those last three years of their career.
    I think the difference being, and the American way, is spending every dime you make on materialism whether you make 40K a year or 400,000 a year. I know far too many people that just simply worked the best years of their life away. So many people that had hopes of traveling or doing this and that and just always thought they'd have time to do it but never did. Those are the trappings of capitalism, at least in America, from my perspective.

    Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk
    Excellent points.
    The materialistic tendencies are sneaky and detrimental to the whole process. Just look at the rise of WalMart and the mini storage industry.
    Perfect testaments to imbalance. Consumption gratification is deadly.
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    Excellent points.
    The materialistic tendencies are sneaky and detrimental to the whole process. Just look at the rise of WalMart and the mini storage industry.
    Perfect testaments to imbalance. Consumption gratification is deadly.
    This.

    My wife and I have moved several times in the last couple of years. Weíve made a point to give away or sell things we no longer need. The house we bought in June, had twice as much furniture in it when the former owner was in it. Weíve built or re-built (re-upholstered) a good bit of the furniture we own. Everything in our bedroom was hand built by my wife. Hardwood (mostly walnut) everything. We refuse to pay a four figure number of dollars for a piece of furniture when we can build much better ourselves. One great thing about making it yourself is that you have to REALLY want or need it; otherwise it wonít get past the design phase.

    Just had our first kid. The amount of clothing that he outgrew before he ever wore it was horrifying. I have a trash bag full of washed but never worn, or worn once, newborn sized clothing. My wife and I agreed that, until heís mobile, we want no more than four onesies of his current size, plus two of whatever heís sleeping in. Heís a child, not a fashion model.


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    They should teach this stuff in Jr High.
    I think it comes down to developing a habit of patience to counter the instant gratification tendency and an appreciation of quality that necessitates a financial check on quantity.

    Our furniture is either second hand high quality, solid maple furniture we finished ourselves, or reupholstered from 30 years ago.
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  77. #77
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    reduce and reuse are 2 very, very important words!!!

    We do the same thing at our place...and having been a bachelor for 48 years, I had not accumulated much "stuff". My barometer was that if I had to move, I needed to be able to do it all myself, in 4 van loads, in one weekend. The largest collection of anything I have are my sports cards, and they only take up a regular sized closet as they are all in boxes right now.

    My wife, on the other hand, had lived for 25 years with 3 kids, in a situation where everything was disposable, and what you had determined your worth. Her ex made a decent amount of money, and just rampantly spent. When we first met, she had 3 30x30 storage units full of crap, as well as an entire apartment. The kids were just ridiculous in their amassing of crap, which was mostly b/c of dad buying their love

    Here we are 10 years later, down to one 20x20 storage unit, and at the other end of a MASSIVE clutter dump...especially clothes. I have had to help her relearn how NOT to spend every cent she has on the kids...especially b/c they are now 25,23, and 19...

    on the flip side, she has been putting 25% of her pay into retirement for the last 15 years, and it is ridiculous what she has saved there...I am no where near that. We have been downsizing everything with the intention to sell the house after the youngest is done with college and do the van/trailer life thing for a while...
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  78. #78
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    Damn! You guys are making way to much sense! WTH?
    Will you shut up, man?!

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    JATC....
    It is entirely plausible to accumulate over a Million in retirement doing Electric Work, Plumbing, Pipe Fitting, or HVAC.

    When I was in Jr High back in the day the teachers and guidance counselor preached ďGo to college so you wonít have to work for your money, you can make it with your brains, not your back.Ē

    Then when I went to work all I heard was ďWork smarter, not harder.Ē

    Both are patterns people follow with reasonable success.

    But those who excel ďWork Harder and SmarterĒ.
    The two are not mutually exclusive.

    Above all, choose a mate carefully.

    Statistically, a college education yields a higher return than a trade. There are of course exceptions, out of respect to those who have voiced that in this thread. I think this stat continues to hold true.

    Yes, we do need skilled tradesman as I have many friends in various fields who can attest.
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  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    The biggest problem though is the American Dream fallacy - the widespread belief that the skyís the limit with hard work. Direct relationship. Itís simply not true. Itís a lose-lose proposition. Not only are you NOT optimizing your financial and occupational success and job satisfaction, but you lose at life as well. Family, friends, passions. All gone. And then itís too late.
    My 21 year old daughter agrees and I like her attitude. The journey is what counts, not the endgame.
    I've been on pause, but I'm shaking off the rust...

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Damn! You guys are making way to much sense! WTH?

    ...cents...
    I've been on pause, but I'm shaking off the rust...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    Statistically, a college education yields a higher return than a trade.
    I wonder if you threw out the highest and lowest earners, calculated time for education, loans etc., what that statistic may look like? I still feel value in my college education having made a living in the trades my entire life. Certainly has helped navigate what I earn regardless.

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    I remember listening to folks like Mike Rowe in the past. I see him today as a corporate shill who can't read facts straight. He falls back to the same story, as if it subconsciously spews forth from him.

    To be fair, a lot of media folk end up repeating the same stuff on a regular basis. Just sad that people rather hear the biased/opinionated gist of situations from so-called pundits. People put too much trust in TV/big-screen/internet personalities; their content is just fiction to me. They're getting paid to influence. Watching/consuming this stuff is like the equivalent to a soft drink or hard liquor to me, as opposed to something like tea or even bitter medicine.

    I like Arnold's take. Having a clear goal, having a clear path laid out to, and being eager to progress on it...



    Reminds me of Michael Phelps's story, of how he followed his one coach everywhere. Aaron Gwin released an ep2 of his "Timeless" video series that has a similar pattern.

    The hard work can't be just for the sake of hard work. Ideally, the hard work should be worth it as part of something that leads you to your goal.
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  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    So many people that had hopes of traveling or doing this and that and just always thought they'd have time to do it but never did.
    Working hard all my life to retire and then getting hit by a bus while exiting the office on the last day of work before retirement has been a big fear of mine over the years. I've seen friends and family who have become too ill or physically unable to do all they wanted in retirement. Therefore, my wife and I have worked to have the flexibility to be able go do the things we want and see the places we want while we are still able, though it will mean working longer for both of us. We don't place a lot of value in things, but rather in experiences, and want to enjoy those as much as possible before we are unable to do so.

    We need to work to pay the bills and to play, but both enjoy what we do and probably get some self esteem boosts from doing it. However, if we didn't need to work anymore I don't think either of us would have a problem with low self-esteem related to not working.

  85. #85
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    See the Fear for what it is and act accordingly.....
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  86. #86
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    I still get my financial advice from a live financial advisor at my bank...is that weird? Wrong? I would never go to an entity in a media outlet to base decisions like that on.

    I also agree with sgltrak in that I would rather experience some free time now while I am physically able to, and then possibly spend my later years working a non-physically demanding job to bring in some extra income as I start to get hobbled

    my problem is i really, really like my current job, so I don't want to leave it yet...it is less like work most of the time, and more fun. i just wish I could do it from a cabin in the north woods somehow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    Statistically, a college education yields a higher return than a trade. There are of course exceptions, out of respect to those who have voiced that in this thread. I think this stat continues to hold true.

    Yes, we do need skilled tradesman as I have many friends in various fields who can attest.
    I am not advocating against college.
    I am advocating realistic productive personal goals rather than an ill-conceived trend over the last 50 years to hard sell college as some universal panacea to all of societyís inequities. No matter lottery scholarships, resulting in skyrocketing tuition, resulting in corruption of the University system, and nationwide crippling student debt.

    Itís time to reassess.....
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Just had our first kid.
    Say what!? Why didn't you tell us this earlier?

    This is amazing news! Congratulations on the little one LeDuke.

    I'm extremely happy for you.

    You're in for more joy than you ever could have expected.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by str8edgMTBMXer View Post
    I still get my financial advice from a live financial advisor at my bank...is that weird? Wrong? I would never go to an entity in a media outlet to base decisions like that on
    What do they advise? All the regular advice I hear is to max out 401k and Roth, invest in unmanaged funds based on the market index, and save a certain % of your income. Nothing about getting rich quick.
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    I am not advocating against college.
    I am advocating realistic productive personal goals rather than an ill-conceived trend over the last 50 years to hard sell college as some universal panacea to all of societyís inequities. No matter lottery scholarships, resulting in skyrocketing tuition, resulting in corruption of the University system, and nationwide crippling student debt.

    Itís time to reassess.....
    I completely agree with this. Really great points.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    What do they advise? All the regular advice I hear is to max out 401k and Roth, invest in unmanaged funds based on the market index, and save a certain % of your income. Nothing about getting rich quick.
    pretty much all of this...

    and I am starting to do some of this. Incrementally raising my 401 contributions; I have had a Roth for years, I am just contributing more to it as well <-- 2 years ago, I paid off my last student loan, and now that monthly payment goes into the Roth

    after selling my house (and making a CRAP TON of money on it), I invested ALL of that money in long term diversified stock portfolio; well, all after paying off the student loan...and now the stock thing reinvests in itself. My planner and I monitor it, and I trust him to make decisions about where that will go since right now, I don't have the time or mental energy to play with it...

    and I have lived "poor", or financially "super conservative" all my life, so I am used to not having disposable income. As mentioned before, I am not into material things for many reasons, so I don't have a lot of extra stuff. I never owned furniture, even when I had a house. I slept on a futon mattress on the floor. I had one 27" tubed tv in the room. I had a drafting table, and desk in the room where my ball card collection was, and then my drums, and othr music stuff in the other room. I never saw the need for a couch, end tables, a credenza, a dining room table, curio cabinets etc. etc. Hell, up until COVID, I was at work 14hours a day 6 days a week, so why have all of that stuff at home?

    I would really say that my 3 bikes are the ONLY extra items that I have that would be purely frivolous in that they don't make me any money.

    my plan was never to get rich, let alone quick. It was always to "live lightly on the Earth" and have enough for the present, while saving for the day that I can not physically do my job
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  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    The trades can lead to something VERY good, once you put in your time and pay your "dues".
    I got a random call on monday for some work up in Seattle, and I showed up and was part of this today,



    The pay is rather absurd for "guys wearing tool bags". The nozzle man running the show here said, "the more certifications you have the more you can charge, and I sock it to them."

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Just had our first kid. The amount of clothing that he outgrew before he ever wore it was horrifying. I have a trash bag full of washed but never worn, or worn once, newborn sized clothing. My wife and I agreed that, until heís mobile, we want no more than four onesies of his current size, plus two of whatever heís sleeping in. Heís a child, not a fashion model.
    Absolutely. We have two girls so almost all the clothes are getting passed onto the younger one, many were hand-me-downs from friends and most will be passed on to other friends or charity when we're done with them. One of the worst things about having kids is the potential to get caught up in wasteful spending/consuming. I'm not doing half as much as I'd like to ideally (have to balance it with reality/practicality/sanity) but I feel like we're dong better than many around us.

    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    I am not advocating against college.
    I am advocating realistic productive personal goals rather than an ill-conceived trend over the last 50 years to hard sell college as some universal panacea to all of societyís inequities. No matter lottery scholarships, resulting in skyrocketing tuition, resulting in corruption of the University system, and nationwide crippling student debt.

    Again, absolutely. I've seen way too many people head off to University for no good reason only to end up with a mountain of debt and not much to show for it. Conversely, I work with a woman in her early 20s who joined a physical, male-dominated blue-collar job (railroad) a couple of years ago and is thriving, and just bought her first house (which is a big deal in NZ given how expensive they are!). If wouldn't surprise me if she did eventually study something, she's certainly bright enough and ambitious enough, but I think this idea that you're supposed to commit to it straight out of highschool is folly, especially for young men. I could barely decide what I wanted for lunch when I was 16-17, let alone pick a career or field to study for 3-4+ years and the associated amount of debt.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    I wonder if you threw out the highest and lowest earners, calculated time for education, loans etc., what that statistic may look like? I still feel value in my college education having made a living in the trades my entire life. Certainly has helped navigate what I earn regardless.

    Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk
    I wonder that as well. Return on one's investment, so to speak.

    Having grown up in a mostly blue collar small town, I've always seen friends and family working in the trades as having leading fairly rough lives between the physical demands of the work, and the company kept outside of work. Yup, it's a stereotypical view but I'm talking from experience.

    Even now, I can't think of many folks in the community where we live who maintain a similar standard of living by being in the trades. The few adults I know who did not go to college and work in non-white collar jobs really wanted their kids to attend.

    And please, I don't say this to offend. Not my intention.
    I've been on pause, but I'm shaking off the rust...

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    What do they advise? All the regular advice I hear is to max out 401k and Roth, invest in unmanaged funds based on the market index, and save a certain % of your income. Nothing about getting rich quick.
    As far as I know, this continues to hold true.
    I've been on pause, but I'm shaking off the rust...

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    As far as I know, this continues to hold true.
    Save as much as your employer's maximum matching, if possible (or more).
    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

    Real eyes realize real lies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
    I got a random call on monday for some work up in Seattle, and I showed up and was part of this today,



    The pay is rather absurd for "guys wearing tool bags". The nozzle man running the show here said, "the more certifications you have the more you can charge, and I sock it to them."

    That can't be Seattle. I see blue sky.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    I wonder that as well. Return on one's investment, so to speak.

    Having grown up in a mostly blue collar small town, I've always seen friends and family working in the trades as having leading fairly rough lives between the physical demands of the work, and the company kept outside of work. Yup, it's a stereotypical view but I'm talking from experience.

    Even now, I can't think of many folks in the community where we live who maintain a similar standard of living by being in the trades. The few adults I know who did not go to college and work in non-white collar jobs really wanted their kids to attend.

    And please, I don't say this to offend. Not my intention.
    Definitely not offended and I 100% know what you speak of.

    Currently, the bulk of my friends and contacts work in the wine industry. Unless you are the wine maker, or lab tech, it requires no formal education but there are plenty of successful makers without the credentials. It's very hard physical hands on work. They are some of the most traveled, intelligent, well fed (big time), happy go lucky, well adjusted segment of society I've ever experienced.

    One of my best friends from my home town has the controlling share of a $350 million dollar company. Him, his family, and those around him are some of the most stressed out toxic people I know of. I grew up poor in a very wealthy area and that was generally my experience... facades.

    I think there are people that simply don't and never will possess the life tools to make themselves happy...my true measure of success. Regardless of what career track or education they have. Within that there are certainly the people who will never have those life tools to make a living other than labor. I think that's an important distinction.

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    Agree with you big time WHALENARD.
    If weíre going to share words of wisdom life lessons think one of the best lessons iív learned I learned from my 4th grade teacher. Who said if you figure out what you would do for free/fun and make a living with it you will be successful. Have lived by those words. That, and money is not a problem until you have none.
    Fall on hard times and you find out who your friends are right quick
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  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    Definitely not offended and I 100% know what you speak of.

    Currently, the bulk of my friends and contacts work in the wine industry. Unless you are the wine maker, or lab tech, it requires no formal education but there are plenty of successful makers without the credentials. It's very hard physical hands on work. They are some of the most traveled, intelligent, well fed (big time), happy go lucky, well adjusted segment of society I've ever experienced.

    One of my best friends from my home town has the controlling share of a $350 million dollar company. Him, his family, and those around him are some of the most stressed out toxic people I know of. I grew up poor in a very wealthy area and that was generally my experience... facades.

    I think there are people that simply don't and never will possess the life tools to make themselves happy...my true measure of success. Regardless of what career track or education they have. Within that there are certainly the people who will never have those life tools to make a living other than labor. I think that's an important distinction.

    Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk
    Reminds me of the division between conservatives and progressives.

    One is a conservative dream, having little general academic proficiency yet attaining wealth with specialization. Like the story of someone choosing to be a pig farmer and getting rich, since it happened to be a rich market to tap at that time/place (and pointing out the challenge of scaling it up for more revenue and profits). They put much focus on finances, social-life, and freedom as a measure of success; they see govt taxes and laws as something that affects growth and freedom, and govt handouts and corruption within the justice system as being sources of dirty success that they'd like cleaned up.

    One is like a stereotypical judgement of the attitude of progressive people who are continually curious for answers. They are faced with difficult technical questions that require a huge foundation of sound knowledge to build off of. It might seem toxic to look down on those who don't have such knowledge foundations. Some "facades" might seem like people trying to be polite, but running out of patience. These types look to be generally more considerate to a wide number of things on a worldy and even galactic scale. As much as they can afford to be at least...

    It might seem rude to a conservative if the progressive treats them as well as a tree, animal, inanimate object (e.g. city infrastructure), or whatever, with the conservative expecting/demanding special treatment based on title/status/authority. The conservative, on the other hand, highly prides themselves on things that give them status, like their car, house, family, job/business, trophies (inc. blingy brand name bike), etc. They'd be irate if anything threatened those things, perhaps even putting their own bodies/health recklessly at risk to fight and protect them. A progressive is more likely to be fine restarting from nothing, valuing their knowledge and experience as something to help them develop stability, whereas a conservative is more likely to become some sort of organized warfighter, resorting to grouping up with their likeness to concentrate power for engaging in violent conflict over "low-hanging fruit" (territorial/possession rights to limited resources that are within their ability to reach) when they have seemingly nothing. The conservatives' behavior develops a new culture around something they find worthy to protect (which they can have control over), whereas the progressives' behavior is a culture centered around sharing and co-existing peacefully with as many as possible (including nature) and practicing in technical arts in order to advance their level and respect past masters. The conservatives don't seem to invest/waste time in finding truly sound answers, and instead rely on blind faith in religion, "conspiracy theories", or whatever (gifts of technology from businesses/capitalism?) for such answers--global warming, pandemic, etc. will be solved by something they can worship, or they can just not believe in it until it strikes them like divine punishment. The progressives seem to battle within themselves to improve their ability to see big-picture-reality, and filter out fiction and other questionable knowledge.

    The missing life tools are a good upbringing, IMO. My opinion was considerably influenced by an experiment in which many sets of identical twins were split at birth, sent to vastly different families. I got the impression that the parentage made most difference, especially rich families which emphasized passing down skills in success. They deemed that a basic public school education tested children with a battery of subjects to probe for what talents they may have and build a base of familiarity, but did not breed success. It strikes me as no surprise that spoiled children grow up to be whiny and short-sighted.
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

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    Now I'm offended.

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    Now we's gettin political!!
    All I am saying is give pizza chants

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Reminds me of the division between conservatives and progressives.

    One is a conservative dream, having little general academic proficiency yet attaining wealth with specialization. Like the story of someone choosing to be a pig farmer and getting rich, since it happened to be a rich market to tap at that time/place (and pointing out the challenge of scaling it up for more revenue and profits). They put much focus on finances, social-life, and freedom as a measure of success; they see govt taxes and laws as something that affects growth and freedom, and govt handouts and corruption within the justice system as being sources of dirty success that they'd like cleaned up.

    One is like a stereotypical judgement of the attitude of progressive people who are continually curious for answers. They are faced with difficult technical questions that require a huge foundation of sound knowledge to build off of. It might seem toxic to look down on those who don't have such knowledge foundations. Some "facades" might seem like people trying to be polite, but running out of patience. These types look to be generally more considerate to a wide number of things on a worldy and even galactic scale. As much as they can afford to be at least...

    It might seem rude to a conservative if the progressive treats them as well as a tree, animal, inanimate object (e.g. city infrastructure), or whatever, with the conservative expecting/demanding special treatment based on title/status/authority. The conservative, on the other hand, highly prides themselves on things that give them status, like their car, house, family, job/business, trophies (inc. blingy brand name bike), etc. They'd be irate if anything threatened those things, perhaps even putting their own bodies/health recklessly at risk to fight and protect them. A progressive is more likely to be fine restarting from nothing, valuing their knowledge and experience as something to help them develop stability, whereas a conservative is more likely to become some sort of organized warfighter, resorting to grouping up with their likeness to concentrate power for engaging in violent conflict over "low-hanging fruit" (territorial/possession rights limited resources that are within their ability to reach) when they have seemingly nothing. The conservatives' behavior develops a new culture around something they find worthy to protect (which they can have control over), whereas the progressives' behavior is a culture centered around sharing and co-existing peacefully with as many as possible (including nature) and practicing in technical arts in order to advance their level and respect past masters. The conservatives don't seem to invest/waste time in finding truly sound answers, and instead rely on blind faith in religion, "conspiracy theories", or whatever (gifts of technology from businesses/capitalism?) for such answers--global warming, pandemic, etc. will be solved by something they can worship, or they can just not believe in it until it strikes them like divine punishment. The progressives seem to battle within themselves to improve their ability to see big-picture-reality, and filter out fiction and other questionable knowledge.
    LMAO, that is some of the most Narrow Minded Bigoted Bullshit Iíve ever read here.
    Cannot believe you wrote all of that without a sarcastic grin on your face.

    Itís full of holes.

    One example of many....

    a conservative is more likely to become some sort of organized warfighter, resorting to grouping up with their likeness to concentrate power for engaging in violent conflict over "low-hanging fruit" (territorial/possession rights limited resources that are within their ability to reach) when they have seemingly nothing.

    Witness Portland, Chop in Seattle, riots and looting in LA, NY, Philly.

    You could not be more divorced from reality.
    Review Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Two World Wars.....
    Try to square your premise with Wilsonís Christianity.
    The people who push a progressive agenda are ultra conservative when it comes to their own money.
    Ole Che himself died with a Rolex on his wrist....
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  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    LMAO, that is some of the most Narrow Minded Bigoted Bullshit Iíve ever read here.
    Cannot believe you wrote all of that without a sarcastic grin on your face.

    Itís full of holes.

    One example of many....

    a conservative is more likely to become some sort of organized warfighter, resorting to grouping up with their likeness to concentrate power for engaging in violent conflict over "low-hanging fruit" (territorial/possession rights limited resources that are within their ability to reach) when they have seemingly nothing.

    Witness Portland, Chop in Seattle, riots and looting in LA, NY, Philly.

    You could not be more divorced from reality.
    The people who push a progressive agenda are ultra conservative when it comes to their own money.
    Yea, and I can't believe you even read and comprehended the post.

    Your logic is short sighted by using that kind of example. That kind of demonstration is anti-bigotry, anti-intolerance (sexism, racism, etc.), and anti-abuse. It's part of the paradox of tolerance, in which one can't expect their society to survive if they're to be tolerant to intolerance itself. Pointing out that the lack of tolerance shown to such can be seen as intolerance only shows your lack of understanding.

    The division isn't heavily/clearly partisan. This is seemingly a thing in the past few decades, where big media treats everything as politically biased more heavily towards one side on some political spectrum. People are a mix of both. A crowd could choose to not vote for a conservative candidate because they're anti-bigotry, without necessarily having many progressive morals/values. Anti-bigotry types could be conservatives who may be against the whole "you're with us or against us" attitude. Maybe their self-esteem is questionable, plagued with this decision. Maybe it's affected because they are not happy being associated with something that does not align with their morals/values, but do so out of simplicity and well-being. They probably have their own vision of conservatism and patriotism.
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Yea, and I can't believe you even read and comprehended the post.

    Your logic is short sighted by using that kind of example. That kind of demonstration is anti-bigotry, anti-intolerance (sexism, racism, etc.), and anti-abuse. It's part of the paradox of tolerance, in which one can't expect their society to survive if they're to be tolerant to intolerance itself. Pointing out that the lack of tolerance shown to such can be seen as intolerance only shows your lack of understanding.

    The division isn't heavily/clearly partisan. This is seemingly a thing in the past few decades, where people show that they're biased more heavily towards one side on some political spectrum. People are a mix of both. A crowd could choose to not vote for a conservative candidate because they're anti-bigotry, without necessarily having progressive morals/values. Anti-bigotry types could be conservatives who may be against the whole "you're with us or against us" attitude. Maybe their self-esteem is questionable, plagued with this decision. Maybe it's affected because they are not happy being associated with something that does not align with their morals/values, but do so out of simplicity and well-being.
    LMAO, and yet somehow your politics follows a reliable course.....
    And you did not address the conflict between your premise and the evidence front and center across the country.
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  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    LMAO, and yet somehow your politics follows a reliable course.....
    And you did not address the conflict between your premise and the evidence front and center across the country.
    WTF, why are you treating this as a USA thing? Humans around the world are concerned about the effects of the world changing around them. It affects their self-esteem. There's a limit to trying to ignore it all, or insulating yourself from its effects.

    The people find different ways to cope with the unpredictable, the unknown, and things out of their control. I use conservative and progressive to describe two attitudes. On one side, I see a type that feels relatively powerless and looks to improve the circumstances starting with themselves and their closest loved ones first. On the other side, I see a type that desires to improve circumstances for all, studying the past cases to gain a better understanding that will be useful in impacting their future decisions. It's like the difference between creating wisdom to mitigate unnecessary suffering, and creating some macho culture that encourages people to tough the suffering out (social darwinism).
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    WTF, why are you treating this as a USA thing. Humans around the world are concerned about the effects of world changing around them. It affects their self-esteem. There's a limit to trying to ignore it all, or insulating yourself from its effects.

    The way people cope with the unpredictable, the unknown, and things out of their control varies. I use conservative and progressive to describe two attitudes. On one side, I see a type that feels relatively powerless and looks to improve the circumstances starting with themselves and their closest loved ones first. On the other side, I see a type that desires to improve circumstances for all, studying the case to gain knowledge that will be useful in impacting their future decisions. It's like the difference between creating wisdom (latter) to mitigate unnecessary suffering, and some macho culture that tells the people to tough the suffering out mentally.
    And that is a very biased, narrow view divorced from evidence the world over. Woodrow Wilson, a vehement Christian professed Progressivism and as a matter of policy entered WW1 and subsequently set the stage for WW2, the Atom Bomb, and the Cold War.
    Wilson proclaimed his Progressivism was rooted in his Christian Faith.

    Not to mention the Progressive Racist Eugenics movement which spawned Sangerís Planned Parenthood.
    https://www.plannedparenthood.org/up...t_oct_2016.pdf

    Kinda blows up your little theory.

    Now, in the interest of my desire to swim against the current here when someone injects this stuff into the conversation, Out before the bin....
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  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Reminds me of the division between conservatives and progressives.

    One is a conservative dream, having little general academic proficiency yet attaining wealth with specialization. Like the story of someone choosing to be a pig farmer and getting rich, since it happened to be a rich market to tap at that time/place (and pointing out the challenge of scaling it up for more revenue and profits). They put much focus on finances, social-life, and freedom as a measure of success; they see govt taxes and laws as something that affects growth and freedom, and govt handouts and corruption within the justice system as being sources of dirty success that they'd like cleaned up.

    One is like a stereotypical judgement of the attitude of progressive people who are continually curious for answers. They are faced with difficult technical questions that require a huge foundation of sound knowledge to build off of. It might seem toxic to look down on those who don't have such knowledge foundations. Some "facades" might seem like people trying to be polite, but running out of patience. These types look to be generally more considerate to a wide number of things on a worldy and even galactic scale. As much as they can afford to be at least...

    It might seem rude to a conservative if the progressive treats them as well as a tree, animal, inanimate object (e.g. city infrastructure), or whatever, with the conservative expecting/demanding special treatment based on title/status/authority. The conservative, on the other hand, highly prides themselves on things that give them status, like their car, house, family, job/business, trophies (inc. blingy brand name bike), etc. They'd be irate if anything threatened those things, perhaps even putting their own bodies/health recklessly at risk to fight and protect them. A progressive is more likely to be fine restarting from nothing, valuing their knowledge and experience as something to help them develop stability, whereas a conservative is more likely to become some sort of organized warfighter, resorting to grouping up with their likeness to concentrate power for engaging in violent conflict over "low-hanging fruit" (territorial/possession rights to limited resources that are within their ability to reach) when they have seemingly nothing. The conservatives' behavior develops a new culture around something they find worthy to protect (which they can have control over), whereas the progressives' behavior is a culture centered around sharing and co-existing peacefully with as many as possible (including nature) and practicing in technical arts in order to advance their level and respect past masters. The conservatives don't seem to invest/waste time in finding truly sound answers, and instead rely on blind faith in religion, "conspiracy theories", or whatever (gifts of technology from businesses/capitalism?) for such answers--global warming, pandemic, etc. will be solved by something they can worship, or they can just not believe in it until it strikes them like divine punishment. The progressives seem to battle within themselves to improve their ability to see big-picture-reality, and filter out fiction and other questionable knowledge.

    The missing life tools are a good upbringing, IMO. My opinion was considerably influenced by an experiment in which many sets of identical twins were split at birth, sent to vastly different families. I got the impression that the parentage made most difference, especially rich families which emphasized passing down skills in success. They deemed that a basic public school education tested children with a battery of subjects to probe for what talents they may have and build a base of familiarity, but did not breed success. It strikes me as no surprise that spoiled children grow up to be whiny and short-sighted.
    Before being a parent would have said nurture has more influence than nature. Now that iív been a parent that opinion has done a 180. Think a personís habits and personality can be changed, but a personís core beliefs and instincts remain from birth. Are you a parent?
    School, environment, exposure, experience can teach you things but it doesnít make you smart.
    School, environment, exposure, experience can help you earn, but not if you do nothing with it.
    Motivation is hard to teach. Reality/consequences are necessary and many parents try to protect their children too much from that, imo
    Round and round we go

  109. #109
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    ^I'd tend to agree with that. Environment is important but wonder if one gravitates toward an environment given their nature. By all statistical measures I should be in prison or dead given my upbringing. Instead I went on to thrive and love life.

    Epigenetics is a fascinating thing as well. Perhaps environment does dictate one's nature but it happened two and three generations beforehand. Getting deep in here now...

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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    ^I'd tend to agree with that. Environment is important but wonder if one gravitates toward an environment given their nature. By all statistical measures I should be in prison or dead given my upbringing. Instead I went on to thrive and love life.

    Epigenetics is a fascinating thing as well. Perhaps environment does dictate one's nature but it happened two and three generations beforehand. Getting deep in here now...

    Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk
    You bring up two interesting points.
    First. Think youíre smart. What you explain is what I call a non teaching example. Where you see behavior you donít like and decide you wonít do it. Most ppl simply follow. Either because itís easier or they lack enough smarts or confidence to see another path.
    Second. Weird that you say that. My child reminds me, by far, more of my Grandmother, who she never met, than anyone else.
    Round and round we go

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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    I am not advocating against college.
    One of my pet peeves is the misconception that a Bachelor's degree is direct path to job placement or career. It is not. What an undergrad degree gets is you exposure to a wide breadth of subject matter with more academic rigor than you'd experience in high school. My personal view is that the knowledge equivalent you gain as an undergrad is the min bar for being a semi-rounded, functional modern human; note the language I chose here - college is just a convenient means to acquire this knowledge in an accredited setting.

    Anyway - from your Bachelor's, you hopefully learned how to apply facts and formed a decision making process (yes, you are being taught how to reason and think)....further, ideally you've been exposed to enough areas where you can make an informed decision on taking your education into a deeper and more specialized area. That said, attaining a 4 year degree is an accomplishment and historically has been a reasonable benchmark for your ability to see a long term, delayed gratification goal to the end. Employers use this milestone accomplishment as the basis to invest in you - but ready to go? LOL no, you merely have one marker that might make you employable.
    Working to stomp out redundancy, I repeat, working to stomp out redundancy.

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    I don't know, I started out being pretty "liberal", then migrated towards being more conservative in m early twenties, then as I understood more of the world and got more experience I saw flaws in both and now tend to be more "middle of the road" in general, on some issues falling more "right" and others more "left". Every outlook has its good arguments and aspects that it is striving for, but also has its flaws from a simplistic understanding of the world. So I don't buy into any "ism", they are all too narrow minded.

    I had a hard upbringing and many in my shoes would have ended up in a bad way, but I loved science as a focal point which kept me out of trouble. Throw some drug experimentation in there and things could have ended up very differently. It's a combination of nature and nurture.
    All I am saying is give pizza chants

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    The left-right debate will never end. The liberals have good points but also are blinded by several flaws in their outlook. The same can be said for "conservatives". The liberals only see the problems with conservatism, not the good parts, and vice versa for conservatives.

    So cue up the endless pointless bickering over idealisms that are in general divorced from the real complexities of the physical world and human nature; and neither one has the maturity to be able to listen to the other side and see things from a different perspective.
    All I am saying is give pizza chants

  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_BC View Post
    I don't know, I started out being pretty "liberal", then migrated towards being more conservative in m early twenties, then as I understood more of the world and got more experience I saw flaws in both and now tend to be more "middle of the road" in general, on some issues falling more "right" and others more "left". Every outlook has its good arguments and aspects that it is striving for, but also has its flaws from a simplistic understanding of the world. So I don't buy into any "ism", they are all too narrow minded.

    I had a hard upbringing and many in my shoes would have ended up in a bad way, but I loved science as a focal point which kept me out of trouble. Throw some drug experimentation in there and things could have ended up very differently. It's a combination of nature and nurture.
    Agreed. Just thought it was more nurture than nature before being a parent. Now I believe the opposite. Both have influence
    Round and round we go

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_BC View Post
    The left-right debate will never end. The liberals have good points but also are blinded by several flaws in their outlook. The same can be said for "conservatives". The liberals only see the problems with conservatism, not the good parts, and vice versa for conservatives.

    So cue up the endless pointless bickering over idealisms that are in general divorced from the real complexities of the physical world and human nature; and neither one has the maturity to be able to listen to the other side and see things from a different perspective.
    I agree with the endless part but give people more credit than that. In this world of endless information to support whatever crazy you believe itís just easier to dig your heals in than to except you may be wrong. And the stupid grows
    Round and round we go

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    IMO, the left-right thing isn't really a big thing. People are a mix. It's mass media that is spinning it that way, to distract others from seeing that there's a lot of class warfare going on. People see examples of others radicalizing, and they perhaps get motivated to get radicalized themselves...

    There's a rich history of statistics to draw info from. Why people choose to only follow personal anecdote or some celebs instead, refusing to believe it's short-sighted or narrow minded...
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    IMO, the left-right thing isn't really a big thing. People are a mix. It's mass media that is spinning it that way, to distract others from seeing that there's a lot of class warfare going on. People see examples of others radicalizing, and they perhaps get motivated to get radicalized themselves.
    Nah, they do it fir ratings/money. Most ppl fall for it
    Round and round we go

  118. #118
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    I always had self-esteem and confidence when I was a little kid. after my father passed away abruptly, I felt like a lost person in another galaxy. I have trouble plotting my direction. I doubt every decision I make in life. would this decision lead me to doom?
    My mother is scared after my father passed away. I am not certain that I have the tenacity to take care of my mother in old age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    I always had self-esteem and confidence when I was a little kid. after my father passed away abruptly, I felt like a lost person in another galaxy. I have trouble plotting my direction. I doubt every decision I make in life. would this decision lead me to doom?
    My mother is scared after my father passed away. I am not certain that I have the tenacity to take care of my mother in old age.
    That's rough. What I'd say is, there are a lot of other people that share the same pain you feel, you're not alone. It needs to be dealt with on an emotional level, and it would help for you to see a professional to help work through the trauma. Once you have identified an event as traumatic it's burned into your brain and it takes work to undo that. It's similar to getting back on your bike after a bad injury.

  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    ^I'd tend to agree with that. Environment is important but wonder if one gravitates toward an environment given their nature. By all statistical measures I should be in prison or dead given my upbringing. Instead I went on to thrive and love life.

    Epigenetics is a fascinating thing as well. Perhaps environment does dictate one's nature but it happened two and three generations beforehand. Getting deep in here now...

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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Agreed. Just thought it was more nurture than nature before being a parent. Now I believe the opposite. Both have influence
    Yeah, like people that think breed doesn't matter and it's only how you raise it. Those folks should try raising a rattlesnake with love.

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    That's rough. What I'd say is, there are a lot of other people that share the same pain you feel, you're not alone. It needs to be dealt with on an emotional level, and it would help for you to see a professional to help work through the trauma. Once you have identified an event as traumatic it's burned into your brain and it takes work to undo that. It's similar to getting back on your bike after a bad injury.
    Take it from him, he's the most interesting man in the world!
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  123. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    I always had self-esteem and confidence when I was a little kid. after my father passed away abruptly, I felt like a lost person in another galaxy. I have trouble plotting my direction. I doubt every decision I make in life. would this decision lead me to doom?
    My mother is scared after my father passed away. I am not certain that I have the tenacity to take care of my mother in old age.
    Buddy, if you've got a therapist, you may need to look for a new one. If you don't have one you may want to look for one. You know the car is headed towards the wall, hit the damn breaks man. Pretty much everyone experiences a traumatic death in their life, and sometimes we need extra support to deal with it.
    dang

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    All I am saying is give pizza chants

  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    And that is a very biased, narrow view divorced from evidence the world over. Woodrow Wilson, a vehement Christian professed Progressivism and as a matter of policy entered WW1 and subsequently set the stage for WW2, the Atom Bomb, and the Cold War.
    Wilson proclaimed his Progressivism was rooted in his Christian Faith.

    Not to mention the Progressive Racist Eugenics movement which spawned Sangerís Planned Parenthood.
    https://www.plannedparenthood.org/up...t_oct_2016.pdf

    Kinda blows up your little theory.

    Now, in the interest of my desire to swim against the current here when someone injects this stuff into the conversation, Out before the bin....
    Youíre an expert on theories blowing up for sure. You canít be serious, oh wait...
    Round and round we go

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    Those folks should try raising a rattlesnake with love.
    Oh now, is that a challenge?
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    I always had self-esteem and confidence when I was a little kid. after my father passed away abruptly, I felt like a lost person in another galaxy. I have trouble plotting my direction. I doubt every decision I make in life. would this decision lead me to doom?
    My mother is scared after my father passed away. I am not certain that I have the tenacity to take care of my mother in old age.
    Losing my dad was one of the toughest things Iíve ever gone through. Youíve got to step up and be the man now, Picard. You have to be there for your mom, itís what your dad would want you to do.
    DAAAANG...that was janky

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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    I always had self-esteem and confidence when I was a little kid. after my father passed away abruptly, I felt like a lost person in another galaxy. I have trouble plotting my direction. I doubt every decision I make in life. would this decision lead me to doom?
    My mother is scared after my father passed away. I am not certain that I have the tenacity to take care of my mother in old age.
    You have to take a little time for yourself, your spirit, every day It can be a lotta things, but that recharges your soul and helps you to face tomorrow, and see what it will bring. You never know about tomorrow.

    That's what keeps me going, Picard, I wanna see what's next!

    You know it....your'e a good son.
    Just call me Ray

  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_BC View Post
    Take it from him, he's the most interesting man in the world!
    Heck yeah, I wouldn't advise anyone to do anything I say but I can fix up puppets pretty nicely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    Karma from past lives dictates the circumstances of your present rebirth.
    While I have my own perspective on Karma I was thinking of this study in my post. It's really interesting stuff.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96verkalix_study

    While trying to find that I read several other studies of generational markers and gene expression. Really calls into question the nature vs nurture conundrum. I'd go as far to say one could work it into a conversation on the idea of free will etc.


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    Lotsa ways to play the cards youíre dealt.
    Free Will.
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    Lotsa ways to play the cards youíre dealt.
    Free Will.
    I believe in free will as that's what my sensory input leads me to believe. There are some compelling arguments to the contrary though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    I believe in free will as that's what my sensory input leads me to believe. There are some compelling arguments to the contrary though.

    Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk
    I used to entertain such thoughts but I changed my mind.....
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



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    None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
    Everything operates within the confines of its respective natural order.
    Round and round we go

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    I believe in free will as that's what my sensory input leads me to believe. There are some compelling arguments to the contrary though.

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    Everyone has some level of free will, but not the same choices to make with it. I don't think there's any sort of predestination or anything like that. However, we all have different opportunities depending on choices we've made in the past and also accidents of birth (resources available, family name, trauma, etc). So sure we all make our own choices, but don't have the same choices to pick from.
    dang

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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    I believe in free will as that's what my sensory input leads me to believe. There are some compelling arguments to the contrary though.

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    You can't access free will without the light of consciousness. Most do not make conscious choices, they are simply the result of karma... accumulated beliefs, traumas, etc.

  137. #137
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    Choices of Free Will expand or contract the opportunity for more Choices.
    They trend toward Freedom or Enslavement.

    All Happiness and Joy in Life is inextricably tied to Free Will.
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



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    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    Everyone has some level of free will, but not the same choices to make with it. I don't think there's any sort of predestination or anything like that. However, we all have different opportunities depending on choices we've made in the past and also accidents of birth (resources available, family name, trauma, etc). So sure we all make our own choices, but don't have the same choices to pick from.
    I agree but we're back to the nature vs nurture thing here. Here's the thing, if you begin to put parameters on free will as you've sort of begun to here. Add in the epigenetics aspect of which we know there's evidence based on the study I provided. Expand on that to what consciousness is...your neurons firing which is predetermined by your genetics. Then just continually whittling away working backwards from there to define what exactly free will is, and I think it begins to paint a different picture than what most people think of as free will. There's an excellent interview between a philosopher and a physicist on this subject I wish I could find. It was really the first time I started to think differently of what free will is and means. Anyway, interesting subject matter for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    Everyone has some level of free will, but not the same choices to make with it. I don't think there's any sort of predestination or anything like that. However, we all have different opportunities depending on choices we've made in the past and also accidents of birth (resources available, family name, trauma, etc). So sure we all make our own choices, but don't have the same choices to pick from.
    The things you list are not accidents, but the result of the exercise of Free Will.

    It is obvious that choices made affect others, and can also contract or expand the choices of others.
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    Lotsa ways to play the cards youíre dealt.
    Free Will.
    "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice." Geddy Lee

    A lyric for every topic...
    Will you shut up, man?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_BC View Post
    The left-right debate will never end. The liberals have good points but also are blinded by several flaws in their outlook. The same can be said for "conservatives". The liberals only see the problems with conservatism, not the good parts, and vice versa for conservatives.

    So cue up the endless pointless bickering over idealisms that are in general divorced from the real complexities of the physical world and human nature; and neither one has the maturity to be able to listen to the other side and see things from a different perspective.
    To this point, many current political commentators in the know state that we desperately need to return to compromise. The current caustic division is 25 years in the making.
    I've been on pause, but I'm shaking off the rust...

  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    Choices of Free Will expand or contract the opportunity for more Choices.
    They trend toward Freedom or Enslavement.

    All Happiness and Joy in Life is inextricably tied to Free Will.
    Possibly, but much easier said than done for those who come from fewer sources of strength. It's like telling the inner city guy to pick himself up by the bootstraps and get on with it.

    It doesn't work that way.
    I've been on pause, but I'm shaking off the rust...

  143. #143
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    You help him as an act of Free Will.
    Not imposing your Will upon another to do it.
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice." Geddy Lee

    A lyric for every topic...
    actually it was Neil Peart's words sung by Geddy...(Rush fanboi here)...

    so how does freewill work for someone who does not believe in other worldy powers and influences?

    my uncle is a raging agnostic, and he always argues that all spiritual/non physical/non naturally happening things are the results of neurons firing in the brain, so therefore, they are not "real"....to him, freewill is the explanation of a force that we have just not figured out the science of yet. He believes that when we die, that is it. We don't go anywhere...we just stop receiving outside stimuli...

    so, is freewill real? Is it any more legit than reincarnation, or resurrection?

    I personally was raised Lutheran, gave up organized religion in my 20's, and then started studying ALL religions and philosophical systems as I got older. One side of me is very into the idea that all religion is just us trying to explain things we can't explain scientifically - like my uncle - and that when we die, that is it. Once the neurons stop firing, there is no realization of anything

    But I also have had some experiences with the supernatural that lead me to believe that there are powers out there stronger than us that don't need scientific proof to be considered real...like freewill, ghosts, the afterlife.

    I feel like balance is the ultimate power...the supreme being. Balance drives everything in nature...so is freewill a balancing force as well?

    so....wtf?

    and on a side note, this kind of stuff is EXACTLY what I think about when I ride!!! Part of the reason I never listen to music while riding...
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    To really understand free will you need to understand quantum mechanics which no one really does, because it defies logical understanding.

    So like the left/right debate, the free will / pre-determined debate will never end.

    Quantum mechanics throws out the door the idea held for centuries that stuff just exists in space and time and randomly bounces around according to the laws of physics as discovered by Newton etc., which is what explains everything that we experience "out there", outside of our heads.

    Instead, consciousness enters the picture and it is apparent that we not only observe, but are part of what we are observing.

    So yes, consciousness does seem to provide free will. Biological evolution is not predetermined like a bunch of billiard balls randomly bouncing a round a pool table based on laws of physics. At the molecular scale the determinate laws of physics simply don't hold up.

    However, we do have genetic and developmental frameworks that we are made of, obviously, which is why people behave differently than dogs or frogs.

    I think heightened consciousness, or "free will", is the ability to see beyond that biological framework and elevate thought beyond it. Ultimately that's what biological evolution is -- the development of complexity beyond what random motion would otherwise allow.
    All I am saying is give pizza chants

  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    The things you list are not accidents, but the result of the exercise of Free Will.

    It is obvious that choices made affect others, and can also contract or expand the choices of others.
    I mean accident by the definition closer to chance or coincidence: "an event that happens by chance or is without apparent or deliberate cause". No one person prescribes the conditions into which they can be born, it's physically impossible. However they usually have sets of choices that are defined by the actions of their predecessors, which either grant them great opportunity or relatively little to start out with. I'm not saying nobody born with less can overcome that, but I also would not say there isn't some element of dumb luck involved when people do. Free will and predestination are a false dichotomy. Most people are free to choose what to make of the options they've got, but for some folks that's prettier than others.
    dang

  147. #147
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    The universe uses Picard as a conduit to start the best threads.

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  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    I agree but we're back to the nature vs nurture thing here. Here's the thing, if you begin to put parameters on free will as you've sort of begun to here. Add in the epigenetics aspect of which we know there's evidence based on the study I provided. Expand on that to what consciousness is...your neurons firing which is predetermined by your genetics. Then just continually whittling away working backwards from there to define what exactly free will is, and I think it begins to paint a different picture than what most people think of as free will. There's an excellent interview between a philosopher and a physicist on this subject I wish I could find. It was really the first time I started to think differently of what free will is and means. Anyway, interesting subject matter for sure.

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    Yeah there's something to all that, I think. Ultimately like most dichotomies, it's false. You are a product of genetic content, but not purely defined by that. Genes are expressed differently according to environment. Stress hormones change a developing brain forever. Some of those changes can be pretty bad. Bringing it back to the thread topic, even in horrible situations, folks who are experiencing poor mental health can choose to cope with it and manage it, but sometimes it takes a lot of work for folks to realize they have that choice. Far different than "get over it" mentality. People with chronic depression can be functional, productive members of society (gosh I hope so...), but shouldn't expect themselves to be top-level. That only adds to stress. Similarly folks with conditions like ADHD can be super productive and enjoy successful careers, and the ability to hyperfocus on a specific task really makes "enjoy your job" a great platitude. However hyperfocus has drawbacks, including burnout and increased stress about small problems or setbacks. You can choose to learn to cope with it or feel bad about it as your increasing dysfunction turns you bitter.
    dang

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    The universe uses Picard as a conduit to start the best threads.

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    Oh, That's deep!
    Will you shut up, man?!

  150. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    One of my pet peeves is the misconception that a Bachelor's degree is direct path to job placement or career. It is not. What an undergrad degree gets is you exposure to a wide breadth of subject matter with more academic rigor than you'd experience in high school. My personal view is that the knowledge equivalent you gain as an undergrad is the min bar for being a semi-rounded, functional modern human; note the language I chose here - college is just a convenient means to acquire this knowledge in an accredited setting.

    Anyway - from your Bachelor's, you hopefully learned how to apply facts and formed a decision making process (yes, you are being taught how to reason and think)....further, ideally you've been exposed to enough areas where you can make an informed decision on taking your education into a deeper and more specialized area. That said, attaining a 4 year degree is an accomplishment and historically has been a reasonable benchmark for your ability to see a long term, delayed gratification goal to the end. Employers use this milestone accomplishment as the basis to invest in you - but ready to go? LOL no, you merely have one marker that might make you employable.
    eh, I think that depends on what you study. In my field, we were told the only reason to go beyond a BS was if you wanted to teach. I studied Industrial Design, which is kind of a combination of engineering and art. It was part of the College of Architecture at a university known for engineering.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    eh, I think that depends on what you study. In my field, we were told the only reason to go beyond a BS was if you wanted to teach. I studied Industrial Design, which is kind of a combination of engineering and art. It was part of the College of Architecture at a university known for engineering.
    Might now be more true than ever that college and the debt it incurs may not be worth it, depending on your field. It has become an evil empire. Moving forward think colleges should have to take stock in a personís given career choice, instead of the line em up and put em over the barrel we have now
    Round and round we go

  152. #152
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    Freedom and free will are an illusion. As an example 90,000 Americans were free not to get tested positive yesterday, doesnít stop nature. A young black man and a young white women are free to hail a cab, but who gets the cab? Who gets pulled over? Who gets convicted by a judge or jury of their piers...
    Freedom and free will are a measure. Believing otherwise is about as silly as believing a rock can will itself a tree
    Round and round we go

  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Freedom and free will are an illusion. As an example 90,000 Americans were free not to get tested positive yesterday, doesnít stop nature. A young black man and a young white women are free to hail a cab, but who gets the cab? Who gets pulled over? Who gets convicted by a judge or jury of their piers...
    Freedom and free will are a measure. Believing otherwise is about as silly as believing a rock can will itself a tree
    Only if you are a rock.
    My Life and the Lives of Millions prove you wrong.
    Laughably so.
    As for a ďJury of their piersĒ, true to form, your incompetence on the subject is hilariously spelled out.

    Anyone who has ever chosen a line and pedaled knows better.
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  154. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    Only if you are a rock.
    My Life and the Lives of Millions prove you wrong.
    Laughably so.
    As for a ďJury of their piersĒ, true to form, your incompetence on the subject is hilariously spelled out.

    Anyone who has ever chosen a line and pedaled knows better.
    The only part of this post thatís not too vague to comprehend and comment on is that you immediately make it personal. Which youíre free to do. For now
    Round and round we go

  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Who gets convicted by a judge or jury of their piers...
    Is this about maritime law?
    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

    Real eyes realize real lies.

  156. #156
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    Lmao....

    It wasnít I who imparted the concept of Free Will to Rocks as an argument against Free Will in Humans.
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice." Geddy Lee

    A lyric for every topic...
    The lyrics were actually from Neil Peart. What a great song.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  158. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    Only if you are a rock.
    My Life and the Lives of Millions prove you wrong.
    Laughably so.
    As for a ďJury of their piersĒ, true to form, your incompetence on the subject is hilariously spelled out.

    Anyone who has ever chosen a line and pedaled knows better.
    Well, that's the illusion.

    It's been proven that most decisions are made automatically, and line choice on a bike is a perfect example of this. Think about it. I know it'll be a struggle...

  159. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    The lyrics were actually from Neil Peart. What a great song.
    What a great drummer!
    If you never saw this you should. Itís Neilís induction into r&r hall of fame. One of his best works, and Alex Lifeson hysterical, if you know the hall of fame years long jerk off of Rush

    https://youtu.be/7M7AEi68a20
    Round and round we go

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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    Is this about maritime law?
    Umm, maybe?
    Round and round we go

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    There are some that live to work, some that work to live, and the rest go back and forth between these two depending on the situation. You can't help but feel your ego bruised when you don't get the job you think you have a good shot of getting, a promotion that you've been working hard for, or even laid off simply because you're a cog in the machine.

  162. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    Well, that's the illusion.

    It's been proven that most decisions are made automatically, and line choice on a bike is a perfect example of this. Think about it. I know it'll be a struggle...
    You mean to tell me that the way most trails are constructed guides the rider to pick a line even if they don't have to think about it? I'm getting red in the face just thinking about the concept.
    dang

  163. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    Lmao....

    It wasnít I who imparted the concept of Free Will to Rocks as an argument against Free Will in Humans.
    On the one hand you argue that Woodrow Willson, who died in what, 1925?, was the cause of ww2, atom bomb, and some other nonsense. While on the other hand you argue free will. So which one is it? Never mind. Keep beating yourself up, itís fun to watch
    Round and round we go

  164. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    Is this about maritime law?
    depends on the channel you need to follow to your pier.
    Dont make me go all Jonathan Winters on this gas station.

  165. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    Well, that's the illusion.

    It's been proven that most decisions are made automatically, and line choice on a bike is a perfect example of this. Think about it. I know it'll be a struggle...
    Iím sure thatís the reason for all the signage......
    Automatic decisions are certainly not outside the realm of Free Will.
    In fact, many derive from it.
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    The lyrics were actually from Neil Peart. What a great song.
    People forget or don't know that he wrote most, maybe all (?), of Rush's lyrics. That was a whole nother talent.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    On the one hand you argue that Woodrow Willson, who died in what, 1925?, was the cause of ww2, atom bomb, and some other nonsense. While on the other hand you argue free will. So which one is it? Never mind. Keep beating yourself up, itís fun to watch
    You should remain on the pier with your peers. The water is deep and you arenít a particularly strong swimmer....

    ....but the choice is yours.
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  168. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    You should remain on the pier with your peers. The water is deep and you arenít a particularly strong swimmer....
    Yeah thereís some smart ppl up in here I can only hope to stand shoulder to shoulder with and have learned a bunch from. Youíre not one of them. I have waterproof shoes, keep it coming
    Round and round we go

  169. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    Well, that's the illusion.

    It's been proven that most decisions are made automatically, and line choice on a bike is a perfect example of this. Think about it. I know it'll be a struggle...
    Consider the line choice versus just being guided along an established trail and not just riding any old direction that you please.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  170. #170
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    Meat and Oz, can you guys please refrain from personal attacks at each other?

    It's putting a chill on an otherwise engaging thread.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

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    .....and Dave.

    I know it will be a struggle......
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    I know it will be a struggle......
    I appreciate it.

    Thanks much.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    Meat and Oz, can you guys please refrain from personal attacks at each other?

    It's putting a chill on an otherwise engaging thread.

    Dammit! Now my popcorn is gonna go uneaten. Thanks man!
    Will you shut up, man?!

  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    Well, that's the illusion.

    It's been proven that most decisions are made automatically, and line choice on a bike is a perfect example of this. Think about it. I know it'll be a struggle...
    When I go 4x4ing with y friend and we're in the same car and he drives, it's like no sweat. He basically takes exactly the same line I would.. I was in the vehicle with his wife driving once and it was kind of awkward. In my head I was like, ..... nahhhh.... I woulda taken this other line.
    All I am saying is give pizza chants

  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    Meat and Oz, can you guys please refrain from personal attacks at each other?

    It's putting a chill on an otherwise engaging thread.
    If you go and look you will find it was not me who started, but your point is taken
    Round and round we go

  176. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    If you go and look you will find it was not me who started, but your point is taken
    I think who ends it is more important than who started it.

    Thanks much, Meat.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  177. #177
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    Choices, and fate.
    The stuff life is made of all bound together and subject to perspective.

    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  178. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    If you go and look you will find it was not me who started


    my parents always said it takes two to start a fight. unless you are picard, who coincidentally started this thread.
    Dont make me go all Jonathan Winters on this gas station.

  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    I think who ends it is more important than who started it.

    Thanks much, Meat.
    Wise words.

    With young ones in my life am concerned at the state of their future of employment. Thereís the whole following your heart instead of your pocketbook to find happiness, which Iím sure varies from person to person. But thereís also the unknown and growing pitfalls in this brave new international marketplace. Our kids definitely have a lot to fix, that we screwed up. Getting away from profit above all else, and back to morals and common respect for all seems to becoming more a necessity for a peaceful existence
    Round and round we go

  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by azimiut View Post

    my parents always said it takes two to start a fight. unless you are picard, who coincidentally started this thread.
    Some around here think Picard *is* two people, but I digress.

    Edit: well, one people, two posters.
    Edit 2: Maybe three.
    Edit 4: I need a nap.
    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

    Real eyes realize real lies.

  181. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by azimiut View Post

    my parents always said it takes two to start a fight. unless you are picard, who coincidentally started this thread.
    Get your point, and agree itís getting old already. Except not to disagree with your parents, but someone usually throws the first punch, and then the other is not starting but defending. Not standing on a hi horse saying thatís always the case with me, know Iím guilty of stirring the pot sometimes. Just not usually. Gotta get better at not taking a turn
    Round and round we go

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    #125
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Getting away from profit above all else, and back to morals and common respect for all seems to becoming more a necessity for a peaceful existence
    Wise words!
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  184. #184
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    If I have no Free Will, how can I be held to moral account?
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    Automatic decisions are certainly not outside the realm of Free Will.
    In fact, many derive from it.
    In that case I suppose you think single cell organisms have free will?

    I assert free will requires consciousness, and that particular faculty is not brought to bear when making decisions for most people. This is why people behave in cyclical patterns without realizing it. Why some people seem to date the same type of person over and over, etc...

    Riding a bike isn't a perfect analogy, even though you react in the manner you practiced while riding, you are much more conscious and in the moment as well.

  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    Wise words!
    X2

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  187. #187
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    ďIn that case I suppose you think single cell organisms have free will?ď

    No, and your assertion that my post (Automatic decisions are certainly not outside the realm of Free Will.) requires it is fallacious.
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  188. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    In that case I suppose you think single cell organisms have free will?

    I assert free will requires consciousness, and that particular faculty is not brought to bear when making decisions for most people. This is why people behave in cyclical patterns without realizing it. Why some people seem to date the same type of person over and over, etc...

    Riding a bike isn't a perfect analogy, even though you react in the manner you practiced while riding, you are much more conscious and in the moment as well.
    I like your train of thought. However the perfect line or quick reaction time improves over many many tries...the ole practice makes perfect. You're stringing together the correct neuron firing sequence over countless tries and countless pathways. It's there for you then, on instant recall if you will. As Osho said there really is no "in the moment", there is only past and future. By the time your faculties have calculated the moment it's already passed.

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  189. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    #125
    Yeah so youíre only pointing out you started getting personal with another member first. Would you give it a break already
    Round and round we go

  190. #190
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    Again, how can one be held morally responsible without Free Will.....
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    I like your train of thought. However the perfect line or quick reaction time improves over many many tries...the ole practice makes perfect. You're stringing together the correct neuron firing sequence over countless tries and countless pathways. It's there for you then, on instant recall if you will. As Osho said there really is no "in the moment", there is only past and future. By the time your faculties have calculated the moment it's already passed.

    Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk
    Exactly.
    The engrained reaction exists within the framework of, and is entirely compatible with, the supposition of Free Will.
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    Exactly.
    The engrained reaction exists within the framework of, and is entirely compatible with, the supposition of Free Will.
    Instinct, reaction, and reflexes are free will? And certainly not a right allowed by a gov. Does a Venus fly trap have free will?
    Round and round we go

  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Instinct, reaction, and reflexes are free will? And certainly not a right allowed by a gov. Does a Venus fly trap have free will?
    Pass.
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Instinct, reaction, and reflexes are free will? And certainly not a right allowed by a gov. Does a Venus fly trap have free will?

    I bet the flies think so.......
    Just call me Ray

  195. #195
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    I think there is too much focus on coming up with a hard definition / decision about what free will is and whether we have it. The bigger question is: is free will / determinism actually a real thing that needs to be identified, or is the whole argument between the two just a result of the way our brains work?

    At the risk of painting a wide brush, typically the free will proponents come from a more conservative religious background, of the big 3 western religions. These philosophies hold that there exists the physical world made up of the things we see, measure and study. These are deterministic things and constitute our body and cars and houses, and their behaviour is determinate based on the laws of physics.

    Behind this material world is the soul, for people, which is immaterial. This is where the free will comes into the picture, especially with the emphasis that western religion places on sin and laws of conduct. It is the soul that has free will, even though our bodies may just be machines.

    Other philosophies more in line with "atheism", as an extreme version, assert that there is no immaterial soul, that what we see is what we get. Everything is made up of physical stuff like atoms that we can do science on and describe its behaviour using laws of nature and a material reductionist approach.

    This is typically where the two philosophies butt heads, especially in the West where those are the two major dichotomies. I think in the East such disagreements aren't so relevant because the philosophies don't fall into either of those categories.

    Yes, I have free will. But ultimately that "free will" in my actions is no different than any other process that's going on; it's all part of consciousness and the physical things we see around us are actually just statistical results of trillions of atoms working together -- this is how quantum physics works -- individually, atoms don't exist in a fixed space and time, until you get a million of them together, then the object they create does end up existing in space and time beyond all statistical doubt, and is subject to normal laws of physics.

    This is getting a bit long but I think the simplest and best answer in terms of practical daily life is that we are predisposed to behave certain ways by our genes (nature), but consciousness obviously has the ability to move beyond this. And it's not that consciousness is something on top of the material stuff we are made of, separate from it -- it's the same thing. When it comes to biological entities that have origins at the microscopic molecular scale where determinism no longer holds validity (for example, individual neurons firing, individual genes coding for a trait), it can't be said that we are simply machines whose behaviour is governed by the laws of physics and chemistry acting on our molecules. We aren't.
    All I am saying is give pizza chants

  196. #196
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    For example, I found a study where researchers were able to violate the laws of thermodynamics on a very small piece of stuff. Violating the laws of thermodynamics is the most impossible thing to do in the universe -- on a large scale where quantum physics no longer has influence, i.e. above thousands of atoms.. But on a small scale, it can be done. It's only when you bring together thousands of those little things into a larger chunk of stuff that statistically, the laws of thermodynamics assert themselves as impossible to violate. If this little piece of stuff that could violate the laws of thermodynamics is of the same size scale similar to our neurons, then how can we assume that our thoughts are determinate? Their origins in our neural network isn't determinate because at that scale, the laws of thermodynamics can be broken and it isn't determinate anymore. The result could be called free will, or consciousness, or whatever you want.
    All I am saying is give pizza chants

  197. #197
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    All I am saying is give pizza chants

  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radium View Post
    I bet the flies think so.......
    Depends... are we talking conservative or liberal flies?
    Round and round we go

  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    People forget or don't know that he wrote most, maybe all (?), of Rush's lyrics. That was a whole nother talent.
    all but one song - Entre Nous, from Permanent Waves was written by Geddy..

    and all of the first album, which was pre-Peart...

    and @MarcBC: i was pretty much trying to type out the same thought pattern, but got cut off at work...weird that we were thinking the same thing...you did it in a more clear way then me as well becasue of being distracted at work

    so, yeah, what MarcBC said...
    Go Practice. Figure it out - Fleas

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  200. #200
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    Consciousness is obviously a factor.
    That is why our laws recognize a moral implication in negligence.
    But none of that negates Free Will.
    We prosecute drunk drivers.

    Funny how after all these years I am becoming a Rush fan....
    I expect the lyricist was a Fan of Clive Lewis, maybe even Old George MacDonald.
    Freedom is a shield against the negative consequences of the Foolishness of others.



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