Results 1 to 92 of 92
  1. #1
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138

    Cool-blue Rhythm Ordination (NMDS) Thread

    If anyone here has experience using PC-ORD to conduct ordination of ecological data and would like to share some experiences and strategies for utilizing cluster analysis and nonmetric multidimensional scaling on a set of tree and shrub data along a chronosequence, then we can get a pretty nerdy thread going on here.

    If not, then... you know... this'll just go off-camber.
    dang

  2. #2
    ****** to the dirt
    Reputation: deke505's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    5,122
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    There's some strange folk out there 'bouts. They have no sense of humor.
    My Blog

  3. #3
    El Gato Malo
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    4,373
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    If anyone here has experience using PC-ORD to conduct ordination of ecological data and would like to share some experiences and strategies for utilizing cluster analysis and nonmetric multidimensional scaling on a set of tree and shrub data along a chronosequence, then we can get a pretty nerdy thread going on here.

    If not, then... you know... this'll just go off-camber.
    Interesting, tell us more.

  4. #4
    heaven help me
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    2,883
    A babalove sock?

  5. #5
    check your six
    Reputation: sodak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4,181
    Do what now?? You kind of lost me there buddy.
    "We can always find excuses if we want to find them, but if we really want to do something, we have to just go."

  6. #6
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    Quote Originally Posted by norton55 View Post
    A babalove sock?
    I ain't nobody's dirty sock. I'm just sayin, lotta old dudes in here, maybe in between successful sexual ventures, one or two might have studied ways to analyze plant communities. You know, those guys can really help out a young kiddo.

    Lotta old dudes.

    Anyway, for the rest y'all old dudes, I'll just post up an animated gif of the 3d graph in rotation when I'm done... Unless... You know... You have any advice. But if there are no plant community ecologists around, then... You know... You might not.
    dang

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    4,211
    I already thought all the threads here were nerdy. You mean to tell me there is another level?

  8. #8
    ****** to the dirt
    Reputation: deke505's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    5,122
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    I ain't nobody's dirty sock. I'm just sayin, lotta old dudes in here, maybe in between successful sexual ventures, one or two might have studied ways to analyze plant communities. You know, those guys can really help out a young kiddo.

    Lotta old dudes.

    Anyway, for the rest y'all old dudes, I'll just post up an animated gif of the 3d graph in rotation when I'm done... Unless... You know... You have any advice. But if there are no plant community ecologists around, then... You know... You might not.
    You forget these old dudes have a little bit of senility in them. The only thing they remember is the so called ventures that you speak of
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    There's some strange folk out there 'bouts. They have no sense of humor.
    My Blog

  9. #9
    El Gato Malo
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    4,373
    I have some nice memories of So 2.

  10. #10
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    I should rename this, "OC ordination advice thread" to be more like that legal advice thread.

    Anyway. Animated gif of a spinning cube is in the future.
    dang

  11. #11
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    Sorry, spinning cube with data points inside of it.
    dang

  12. #12
    Self Appointed Judge&Jury
    Reputation: DIRTJUNKIE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Posts
    32,778
    OP are you a speed Cuber?
    The fastest Rubiks Cube solver on earth.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  13. #13
    check your six
    Reputation: sodak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4,181
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    Sorry, spinning cube with data points inside of it.
    My room on New Years Eve was a spinning cube with data points (garbage cans) inside it.
    "We can always find excuses if we want to find them, but if we really want to do something, we have to just go."

  14. #14
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    Sodak's room:

    Name:  joint3d-s.gif
Views: 118
Size:  37.4 KB

    With clearly distinct garbage compositions in between the normal garbage and recycling cans.

    Edit: not my gif.
    dang

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    3,359
    Time to break out the bunny


  16. #16
    I didn't do it
    Reputation: Mookie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    9,461
    Are tree and shrub code for anything?
    Let's eat Ted
    Let's eat, Ted
    Remember, commas save lives

  17. #17
    9 lives
    Reputation: cyclelicious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    13,201
    engineering porn

    F*ck Cancer

    Eat your veggies

  18. #18
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    Quote Originally Posted by Mookie View Post
    Are tree and shrub code for anything?
    Sometimes. Depends if you're talking about hardwoods or not.
    dang

  19. #19
    STEEL IS REAL
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    24,893
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    If anyone here has experience using PC-ORD to conduct ordination of ecological data and would like to share some experiences and strategies for utilizing cluster analysis and nonmetric multidimensional scaling on a set of tree and shrub data along a chronosequence, then we can get a pretty nerdy thread going on here.

    If not, then... you know... this'll just go off-camber.
    I'll bite.

    I have a potato chip. What can we do with it?
    life is... "All About Bikes"...

  20. #20
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    In any combination or order: eat it, dip it, or feed it to the dog.
    dang

  21. #21
    banned
    Reputation: random walk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    2,666
    I analyzed cannabis strains quite frequently in college, but no priests were actually consecrated in my efforts to ordinate.

  22. #22
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    Quote Originally Posted by random walk View Post
    I analyzed cannabis strains quite frequently in college, but no priests were actually consecrated in my efforts to ordinate.
    See, now we're talkin. All need to do is take some metrics on each cannabis strain, compared by locality of origin too, like THC content, plant height, bud weight, etc and then construct a table of similarities. Then you construct a graph showing the closest visual representation of the groupings of cannabis stains. Closer on the graph means more similar.from the measurements of the plants themselves and with knowledge of plant physiology and environmental response you can figure out which ones are best (to your taste).

    Or... You know.... You can just smoke them.
    dang

  23. #23
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    * note: strains, not stains. That's what I get for using a smartphone.
    dang

  24. #24
    STEEL IS REAL
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    24,893
    Where/how do magic mushrooms fit into this topic/conversation?
    life is... "All About Bikes"...

  25. #25
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    I was presuming everyone had already taken their share.
    dang

  26. #26
    STEEL IS REAL
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    24,893
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    I was presuming everyone had already taken their share.
    I think you are correct but the effect is never forgotten and that specific effect on the mind could be used as a door way for entering the room you are inviting us into.
    life is... "All About Bikes"...

  27. #27
    Rabid Lana fan
    Reputation: net wurker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    8,790
    Is this the "weed" thread?
    rOCktoberfest 2015 pt I here
    rOCktoberfest 2015 pt II here

  28. #28
    Upcyclist
    Reputation: Cornfield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    5,062
    Cool heads prevail

  29. #29
    heaven help me
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    2,883
    Quote Originally Posted by net wurker View Post
    Is this the "weed" thread?
    Or the new "Stacked" thread?

  30. #30
    STEEL IS REAL
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    24,893
    No, it's the "stacked weed" thread. It's really deep, this one.
    life is... "All About Bikes"...

  31. #31
    heaven help me
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    2,883
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    No, it's the "stacked weed" thread. It's really deep, this one.
    Say's Steven Hawking.

  32. #32
    ****** to the dirt
    Reputation: deke505's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    5,122
    Quote Originally Posted by norton55 View Post
    Say's Steven Hawging.
    fify
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    There's some strange folk out there 'bouts. They have no sense of humor.
    My Blog

  33. #33
    STEEL IS REAL
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    24,893
    Quote Originally Posted by deke505 View Post
    fify
    Thank you deke, I was just about to do that.
    life is... "All About Bikes"...

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Burt4x4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,668
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    Thank you deke, I was just about to do that.
    Ok I give up, what is fify?
    Ride MORE = Live Longer
    Love Dirt / Hate Pavement

  35. #35
    Rabid Lana fan
    Reputation: net wurker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    8,790
    Quote Originally Posted by Burt4x4 View Post
    Ok I give up, what is fixed it for you?
    fify
    rOCktoberfest 2015 pt I here
    rOCktoberfest 2015 pt II here

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Burt4x4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,668
    AHHHH "light bulb" !! LOL
    Thanks Net!
    Ride MORE = Live Longer
    Love Dirt / Hate Pavement

  37. #37
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    OP are you a speed Cuber?
    The fastest Rubiks Cube solver on earth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    No, it's the "stacked weed" thread. It's really deep, this one.
    It's like... beer cooler deep. Like reaching into your pocket looking for a quarter deep.
    dang

  38. #38
    I didn't do it
    Reputation: Mookie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    9,461
    Quote Originally Posted by net wurker View Post
    Is this the "weird" thread?
    fify
    Let's eat Ted
    Let's eat, Ted
    Remember, commas save lives

  39. #39
    I'm just messing with you
    Reputation: wv_bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    5,423
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    Where/how do magic mushrooms fit into this topic/conversation?


    Local man arrested for cultivating 'shrooms when the cops showed up to arrest his brother on child pr0n charges


    And here's some music to analyze data by
    <iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/6gBV-Nzq7Pg?rel=0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

    PS Screw you Vevo and your 30 second youtube commercials I bet the artists don't see a cent.
    Chasing bears through the woods drunk with a dull hatchet is strongly not advised

  40. #40
    Rabid Lana fan
    Reputation: net wurker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    8,790
    Quote Originally Posted by Mookie View Post
    fify
    Probably not the last time I post something broken, either.
    rOCktoberfest 2015 pt I here
    rOCktoberfest 2015 pt II here

  41. #41
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    Quote Originally Posted by wv_bob View Post
    Local man arrested for cultivating 'shrooms when the cops showed up to arrest his brother on child pr0n charges

    And here's some music to analyze data by
    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/6gBV-Nzq7Pg?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    PS Screw you Vevo and your 30 second youtube commercials I bet the artists don't see a cent.
    I think the reptoid aliens were a good addition to that song.

    And what a headline!
    dang

  42. #42
    heaven help me
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    2,883
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    It's like... beer cooler deep. Like reaching into your pocket to play pocket pool deep.
    fify

  43. #43
    I'm just messing with you
    Reputation: wv_bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    5,423
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    I think the reptoid aliens were a good addition to that song.
    It's related to DMT although it'd be a win even if it was totally random.

    And what a headline!
    I remember that family from when I worked as an election clerk. They reminded me of the Alaskan Bush People, sort of a wolfpack of weirdness.
    Chasing bears through the woods drunk with a dull hatchet is strongly not advised

  44. #44
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    Quote Originally Posted by norton55 View Post
    fify
    Usual it turns out that I don't actually have any quarters, so I do usually entertain myself with some pocket pool.

    And wv_bob, I forget that people usually refer to aliens because of drugs. My brother spends a lot of time reading conspiracy theories online and too many of those involve reptoid elites usually representing a group of people that said conspiracy theorist hates/fears.
    dang

  45. #45
    I'm just messing with you
    Reputation: wv_bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    5,423
    Not just drug-induced paranoia, but actual correlation (apparently)

    https://www.google.com/search?rls=as...q=dmt%20aliens
    Chasing bears through the woods drunk with a dull hatchet is strongly not advised

  46. #46
    I didn't do it
    Reputation: Mookie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    9,461
    Quote Originally Posted by net wurker View Post
    Probably not the last time I post something broken, either.
    Hahaha same here.
    Let's eat Ted
    Let's eat, Ted
    Remember, commas save lives

  47. #47
    STEEL IS REAL
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    24,893
    So, this is the new "fify" thread?
    life is... "All About Bikes"...

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Crankout's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    2,772
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    If anyone here has experience using PC-ORD to conduct ordination of ecological data and would like to share some experiences and strategies for utilizing cluster analysis and nonmetric multidimensional scaling on a set of tree and shrub data along a chronosequence, then we can get a pretty nerdy thread going on here.

    If not, then... you know... this'll just go off-camber.
    Why nonmetric? You may not get much variation among shrub data but possibly tree data.
    Stick around if you're housebroken...

  49. #49
    heaven help me
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    2,883
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    So, this is the "fify" thread?
    fify

  50. #50
    STEEL IS REAL
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    24,893
    Quote Originally Posted by norton55 View Post
    fify
    fify squared, plus 42, pied, and then divided by X=y3r67/780zWa.66093 with a quotient factor of 4.8

    life is... "All About Bikes"...

  51. #51
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    Why nonmetric? You may not get much variation among shrub data but possibly tree data.
    Well, the idea is that only the graphical part of it is nonmetric, as in the axes have no predefined units. The graph is the most accurate display of how similar each item is to one another (Bray-Curtis similarity). This is calculated based on abundance of trees and shrubs at each site, which is a measured quantity.

    The graph shows how sites or species associate with one another, but you can add environmental data to asses what factors beyond plants species interaction guide plant community composition.

    And you're almost spot on. Very low shrub diversity (mostly three species and a few tree sapling recruits), but also a relatively low tree diversity. The study area was once farmland, and data on plot abandonment exists, so we have a succession series. Also a pretty high disturbance history.

    And Hawg, how did you already figure out the exponential model for density of spicebush over time?
    dang

  52. #52
    El Gato Malo
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    4,373
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    fify squared, plus 42, pied, and then divided by X=y3r67/780zWa.66093 with a quotient factor of 4.8

    I like a good piece of pie, especially coconut cream.

  53. #53
    heaven help me
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    2,883
    Quote Originally Posted by Wishful Tomcat View Post
    I like a good piece of pie, .
    fify

  54. #54
    Wanna Ride Bikes?
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    390
    I've got a drinking buddy who's a biologist, does that help you any?

    Pie is better than cake.
    Hold my beer and watch this!

  55. #55
    ali'i hua
    Reputation: SlowSSer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    1,793
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    If anyone here has experience using PC-ORD to conduct ordination of ecological data and would like to share some experiences and strategies for utilizing cluster analysis and nonmetric multidimensional scaling on a set of tree and shrub data along a chronosequence, then we can get a pretty nerdy thread going on here.

    If not, then... you know... this'll just go off-camber.
    well, i can say that (at leat i think that i have) i've dealt with this a tiny bit- back in a past life i helped with habitat restorations and reading carefully laid out plans for what plants/trees go where based on size and clustering. we were restoring Coastal Sage Scrub communities here in SoCal.

    am i at least close?!?!?!

  56. #56
    El Gato Malo
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    4,373
    I cut my lawn once a week during the spring and the summer would that experience be of any help?

  57. #57
    humber river advocate
    Reputation: singlesprocket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    6,392
    if you want i can put you in touch with people who specialize in this data/collection/monitoring/practical and experimental restoration, etc... they might be helpful with regards to the info that you seek. just pm me.

    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    Well, the idea is that only the graphical part of it is nonmetric, as in the axes have no predefined units. The graph is the most accurate display of how similar each item is to one another (Bray-Curtis similarity). This is calculated based on abundance of trees and shrubs at each site, which is a measured quantity.

    The graph shows how sites or species associate with one another, but you can add environmental data to asses what factors beyond plants species interaction guide plant community composition.

    And you're almost spot on. Very low shrub diversity (mostly three species and a few tree sapling recruits), but also a relatively low tree diversity. The study area was once farmland, and data on plot abandonment exists, so we have a succession series. Also a pretty high disturbance history.

    And Hawg, how did you already figure out the exponential model for density of spicebush over time?
    broadcasting from
    "the vinyl basement"

    build trail!

  58. #58
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    Quote Originally Posted by Brisk Eddie View Post
    I've got a drinking buddy who's a biologist, does that help you any?

    Pie is better than cake.
    I've got a few of those. Haha. But they're all animal biologists that hate botany and statistics. Don't know what their deal is...

    And SlowSSer, you were dealing with the outcome of this type of research definitely, in as much as this level of knowledge of what guides which plants live where and how plants affect each other is a guide for habitat restoration and invasive species management. Thanks for doing that, buddy!
    dang

  59. #59
    banned
    Reputation: random walk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    2,666
    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfield View Post


    Dem eyes.

  60. #60
    banned
    Reputation: random walk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    2,666
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    fify squared, plus 42, pied, and then divided by X=y3r67/780zWa.66093 with a quotient factor of 4.8

    Hawg. Now fify percent more irrational.

  61. #61
    Rabid Lana fan
    Reputation: net wurker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    8,790
    Hawg's sooper-dooper top secret code:

    Code:
    @echo off
    echo "Hello World!"
    pause
    rOCktoberfest 2015 pt I here
    rOCktoberfest 2015 pt II here

  62. #62
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    4,816
    NDD, you came to the right place. We are pretty old, and as such, you hit that nail right on the head.
    I could go outside and count the number of trees /shrubs, sq. footage of lawn in the yard, and such for you. We got weeds too. Not the expensive kind, the dandelion type.
    I hear dandelion root is good for the liver....you could pass that along to your biologist drinking buddy.

  63. #63
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    I'll get a chemistry drinking buddy and pass it on to them, that way we'll just synthesize the good-fer-tha-liver-stuff and sell it back to you.

    I think we're gonna make, like, $16.50.
    dang

  64. #64
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    4,816
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    I'll get a chemistry drinking buddy and pass it on to them, that way we'll just synthesize the good-fer-tha-liver-stuff and sell it back to you.

    I think we're gonna make, like, $16.50.
    Having brains should pay off. It's good to see that when it indeed does.

  65. #65
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dbhammercycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    3,127
    I'm working with a lab mate who is interested in the biological sources of propolis (bee keeper term for plant resins) collected from bees. We're looking at the anti-microbial and anti-fungal properties of the resins against bee pathogens. He has utilized cluster analysis as a way to look at how varied the botanical sources are for the area around the UofM, turns out they like a lot of poplar.

    I should also mention that I'm a chem grad who likes to home brew and would possibly entertain a a partnership if we can work out how to divide that $16.50.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  66. #66
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    You give me some beer and you can keep 15.60

    But really that's an awesome project. How do you determine species of tree by propolis? Or are you inferring based on species composition? Poplar, don't have too many of those around. Mostly oak, hickory, maple, black locusts, hackberry, black cherry, sycamore, American cottonwood, red bud, and a couple of odd balls or exotic. Not the most diverse.
    dang

  67. #67
    I didn't do it
    Reputation: Mookie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    9,461
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    You give me some beer and you can keep 15.60

    But really that's an awesome project. How do you determine species of tree by propolis? Or are you inferring based on species composition? Poplar, don't have too many of those around. Mostly oak, hickory, maple, black locusts, hackberry, black cherry, sycamore, American cottonwood, red bud, and a couple of odd balls or exotic. Not the most diverse.
    I'll bet they look at stuck pollen.

    OR

    I wouldn't be surprise if each source species produces a propolis with a specific chemical signature.
    Let's eat Ted
    Let's eat, Ted
    Remember, commas save lives

  68. #68
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    Quote Originally Posted by Mookie View Post
    I'll bet they look at stuck pollen.

    OR

    I wouldn't be surprise if each source species produces a propolis with a specific chemical signature.
    Most likely. They can tell historically where plants were due to pollen grains in lake sediment. They all got different shapes etc.
    dang

  69. #69
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    Wait, they probably ask the bees and confirm with the trees.
    dang

  70. #70
    I didn't do it
    Reputation: Mookie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    9,461
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    Wait, they probably ask the bees and confirm with the trees.
    Of course, just take a survey. Makes sense.
    Let's eat Ted
    Let's eat, Ted
    Remember, commas save lives

  71. #71
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    4,816
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    Wait, they probably ask the bees and confirm with the trees.
    Bees are very honest, in general.

  72. #72
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dbhammercycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    3,127
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    You give me some beer and you can keep 15.60

    But really that's an awesome project. How do you determine species of tree by propolis? Or are you inferring based on species composition? Poplar, don't have too many of those around. Mostly oak, hickory, maple, black locusts, hackberry, black cherry, sycamore, American cottonwood, red bud, and a couple of odd balls or exotic. Not the most diverse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mookie View Post
    I'll bet they look at stuck pollen.

    OR

    I wouldn't be surprise if each source species produces a propolis with a specific chemical signature.
    The resin collected from bees is analyzed using High Performance/Pressure Liquid Chromatography-Mass Spectrometry. The resin is collected by foragers by sticking it to the hind leg and it's sticky enough to require other bees help in its removal. For a comparison, resin is collected from local resinous producing plants from within an estimated flight area and analyzed the same way. The spectra is then compared and conclusions about the origins of the bee collected resin are made. It's amazing how many peaks are present in each chromatogram.

    Sounds mostly reasonable for beer terms, how many oz per 15.60 including shipping with tracking of course...
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  73. #73
    I didn't do it
    Reputation: Mookie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    9,461
    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    The resin collected from bees is analyzed using High Performance/Pressure Liquid Chromatography-Mass Spectrometry. The resin is collected by foragers by sticking it to the hind leg and it's sticky enough to require other bees help in its removal. For a comparison, resin is collected from local resinous producing plants from within an estimated flight area and analyzed the same way. The spectra is then compared and conclusions about the origins of the bee collected resin are made. It's amazing how many peaks are present in each chromatogram.

    Sounds mostly reasonable for beer terms, how many oz per 15.60 including shipping with tracking of course...
    That's interesting. So do you happen to know if he has to pool the resin from several bees to make a single HPLC run?
    Let's eat Ted
    Let's eat, Ted
    Remember, commas save lives

  74. #74
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dbhammercycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    3,127
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Ray View Post
    Bees are very honest, in general.
    Unfortunately, the trees are young in the spring, lie in the summer, leave in the fall, and sleep through the winter.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  75. #75
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dbhammercycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    3,127
    Quote Originally Posted by Mookie View Post
    That's interesting. So do you happen to know if he has to pool the resin from several bees to make a single HPLC run?
    No, there is enough in most cases to make several runs with a 50ul injection. The appropriate amount of solvent is added to get 1.5mg/ml and the final volume can range anywhere from a hundred uLs to about a mL.

    I should mention that we don't know if a single bee will collect from a single source or more than one in a single foraging session, although that assumption is made for simplicity's sake until we recognize it to be otherwise.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  76. #76
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    4,816
    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    Unfortunately, the trees are young in the spring, lie in the summer, leave in the fall, and sleep through the winter.
    Not to mention their habit of dropping limbs like it's not their responsibility to clean up, or anything.
    Trees these days............

  77. #77
    I didn't do it
    Reputation: Mookie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    9,461
    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    No, there is enough in most cases to make several runs with a 50ul injection. The appropriate amount of solvent is added to get 1.5mg/ml and the final volume can range anywhere from a hundred uLs to about a mL.
    That's impressive that a single bee can yield enough sample to make several runs.

    I should mention that we don't know if a single bee will collect from a single source or more than one in a single foraging session, although that assumption is made for simplicity's sake until we recognize it to be otherwise.
    I was wondering about this. If I understand correctly you are matching the resin spectra from the bees with those of various trees so it sounds like a valid assumption.
    Let's eat Ted
    Let's eat, Ted
    Remember, commas save lives

  78. #78
    STEEL IS REAL
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    24,893
    LOL, I cannot believe that this thread is still going.
    life is... "All About Bikes"...

  79. #79
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    I'm working with a lab mate who is interested in the biological sources of propolis (bee keeper term for plant resins) collected from bees. We're looking at the anti-microbial and anti-fungal properties of the resins against bee pathogens. He has utilized cluster analysis as a way to look at how varied the botanical sources are for the area around the UofM, turns out they like a lot of poplar.

    I should also mention that I'm a chem grad who likes to home brew and would possibly entertain a a partnership if we can work out how to divide that $16.50.
    I'm gonna say a half gallon. Firm.

    For clustering analysis, do you know what method was used (flexible beta, centroid, etc.) and then how that result was utilized? Or even the program used to do it?
    dang

  80. #80
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    4,211
    Why are you people even bothering with science. Nobody believes in it anyways.

  81. #81
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Danger View Post
    Why are you people even bothering with science. Nobody believes in it anyways.
    That's the great thing about science, you don't have to believe it!!!

    But for real, somebody told me that the is endless money and babes to be had for conservation biologists, especially for those with a preference for botany.

    "Science=money+babes."
    - Charles Darwin.
    dang

  82. #82
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    4,816
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    That's the great thing about science, you don't have to believe it!!!

    But for real, somebody told me that the is endless money and babes to be had for conservation biologists, especially for those with a preference for botany.

    "Science=money+babes."
    - Charles Darwin.
    If you were a real brainiac you would become a CLIMATE SCIENTIST and pull down the BIG BUCKS.

  83. #83
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    4,211
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Ray View Post
    If you were a real brainiac you would become a CLIMATE SCIENTIST and pull down the BIG BUCKS.
    Babes too.

  84. #84
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    4,816
    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Danger View Post
    Babes too.
    Guys too, if that's their thing. When you join the other 97% of the world's climate scientists in the vast, worldwide cabal that is the AGW Hoax, you can just write yer own ticket.
    Their pockets are bottomless, unlike the poor petroleum and coal industries, which are really scrapin'.

  85. #85
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Crankout's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    2,772
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    Well, the idea is that only the graphical part of it is nonmetric, as in the axes have no predefined units. The graph is the most accurate display of how similar each item is to one another (Bray-Curtis similarity). This is calculated based on abundance of trees and shrubs at each site, which is a measured quantity.

    The graph shows how sites or species associate with one another, but you can add environmental data to asses what factors beyond plants species interaction guide plant community composition.

    And you're almost spot on. Very low shrub diversity (mostly three species and a few tree sapling recruits), but also a relatively low tree diversity. The study area was once farmland, and data on plot abandonment exists, so we have a succession series. Also a pretty high disturbance history.

    And Hawg, how did you already figure out the exponential model for density of spicebush over time?
    Do you use this information as a community planning engineer? Beyond these configurations you then have to deal with a myriad of environmental regulations some of which are just plain silly.
    Stick around if you're housebroken...

  86. #86
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Crankout's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    2,772
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    Wait, they probably ask the bees and confirm with the trees.
    There is unrest in the forest,
    There is trouble with the trees,
    For the maples want more sunlight
    And the oaks ignore their pleas.
    Stick around if you're housebroken...

  87. #87
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Crankout's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    2,772
    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    I'm working with a lab mate who is interested in the biological sources of propolis (bee keeper term for plant resins) collected from bees. We're looking at the anti-microbial and anti-fungal properties of the resins against bee pathogens. He has utilized cluster analysis as a way to look at how varied the botanical sources are for the area around the UofM, turns out they like a lot of poplar.

    I should also mention that I'm a chem grad who likes to home brew and would possibly entertain a a partnership if we can work out how to divide that $16.50.
    Are they looking at ways to preserve the ever-dropping population in honey bees? Goddamn, I cherish them when they are in my gardens!
    Stick around if you're housebroken...

  88. #88
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    Do you use this information as a community planning engineer? Beyond these configurations you then have to deal with a myriad of environmental regulations some of which are just plain silly.
    The basic idea is to guide habitat restoration. You can use this info to help preserve native or timer species and remove exotic or economically unimportant species.
    dang

  89. #89
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dbhammercycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    3,127
    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    Are they looking at ways to preserve the ever-dropping population in honey bees? Goddamn, I cherish them when they are in my gardens!
    The study looks at the benefits of foraging for propolis as a means to improve overall hive health. Foraging for propolis has been, for the most part, bred out of commercial honeybees. Bees use propolis in a variety of ways, they use it like cement to seal holes in the hive and will use it to mummify invaders they can't remove from the hive. There is a great picture I've seen of a mouse that was stung to death and subsequently mummified so the decaying mouse wouldn't impact the health of the hive. So, the bees will gum up the hive frames and in turn the propolis will be collected along with the honey, adding bitterants to the honey which is undesirable. So the study isn't looking at the causes of colony collapse disorder per se, but is looking at a natural way that bees can boost hive health through their own efforts. I am sure though that the bee lab here is very much interested in colony collapse disorder. I encourage you to listen to Marla Spivak's Ted Talk if you haven't already.
    https://www.ted.com/speakers/marla_spivak
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  90. #90
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dbhammercycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    3,127
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    I'm gonna say a half gallon. Firm.

    For clustering analysis, do you know what method was used (flexible beta, centroid, etc.) and then how that result was utilized? Or even the program used to do it?
    I do not know off hand, but I will ask. I know the last set of HPLC results were loaded into Genedata and I believe that the principle component analysis 3D graphs I saw were generated from that data. However, I do not know the parameters used. Anyway, I can ask.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  91. #91
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dbhammercycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    3,127
    NDD: I don't think I'm going to be much help. My lab buddy has used programs like Genedata and XCMS to look at his data, but those are for MS spectra. He basically said to take a class or talk to someone familiar with your software of choice because each program that he looked at would use different terms and the clarity of how parameters shaped the data was murky at best. Good luck and happy rollin'!, in your off time.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  92. #92
    NDD
    NDD is offline
    Baby boy
    Reputation: NDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,138
    And how! Thanks anyway. I understand completely, because terms are probably copyrighted and all that. Pft. Just makes it harder for the rest of us. It doesn't help that there are a million ways to skin this cat, so even professionals might know a lot about a subject and relatively little about how the other guy is doing his thing.

    Yep
    dang

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 17
    Last Post: 04-02-2013, 05:48 PM
  2. Replies: 74
    Last Post: 01-19-2013, 10:29 PM
  3. colour co-ordination
    By Zuzi in forum Knolly
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-07-2012, 07:26 PM
  4. Bullit photo thread (Merged thread)
    By Pete in forum Santa Cruz
    Replies: 295
    Last Post: 05-18-2012, 11:49 AM

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2018 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.