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  1. #1
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    Upset Mega RANT: Common Core Education System

    What in the hell is this crap?! Talk about boring and not challenging our children enough in school? One problem can take 15-20 minutes to do??? It's not the actual work that's different, it's the discussion of how it applies in life that is BORING, BORING, BORING and drawn out. This is not a Socialist country. Not everyone learns at the same pace. Not everyone agrees with the ideals of what examples the Common Core system is using. America was built on the foundation that is freedom. This new system is an attempt to make us function like robots or clones. My understanding is that some states implemented this system years ago and that it works for them. In a nutshell, my daughter had ONE math homework assignment last night. It took as long to do that one problem (due to watching STUPID and BORING animated tutoring videos) as it does for her to do a full page of problems. That just doesn't make sense. There isn't sufficient time to expose the students to a process over and over because one problem takes so long. I'm telling you, our children are going to become uninterested. Their attention spans will shorten. They will learn to rebel against this system. The outcry from the parents within our school district is HUGE!
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    Re: Mega RANT: Common Core Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    This new system is an attempt to make us function like robots or clones........... It took as long to do that one problem (due to watching STUPID and BORING animated tutoring videos) as it does for her to do a full page of problems.
    Counterpoint:

    Actually this new system is designed to do the opposite. There are a bunch of high profile ridiculous examples floating around and surely the implementation needs some tweaking but it seems the main complaint is "this ain't how we did it". Well pages and pages of repetitive math problems are exactly what will turn someone into a robot. That's all about memorization and regurgitation. Why? Not important.

    Now a single problem that takes an hour requires lots of thinking and reasoning. Weird "backwards addition" shows how you can break numbers down into components. This skill is fundamental to pretty much all higher math. Maybe the reason a lot of people don't get calculus is they are trained to treat all numbers as solid blocks (or maybe not, what do I know)

    The point is sure there are some loopy questions and there is a learning curve (see what I did there?) But you should give it a chance to iron out the kinks. Overall it's a really good idea to focus on the why and how instead of the what.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terp View Post
    Counterpoint:

    Actually this new system is designed to do the opposite. There are a bunch of high profile ridiculous examples floating around and surely the implementation needs some tweaking but it seems the main complaint is "this ain't how we did it". Well pages and pages of repetitive math problems are exactly what will turn someone into a robot. That's all about memorization and regurgitation. Why? Not important.

    Now a single problem that takes an hour requires lots of thinking and reasoning. Weird "backwards addition" shows how you can break numbers down into components. This skill is fundamental to pretty much all higher math. Maybe the reason a lot of people don't get calculus is they are trained to treat all numbers as solid blocks (or maybe not, what do I know)

    The point is sure there are some loopy questions and there is a learning curve (see what I did there?) But you should give it a chance to iron out the kinks. Overall it's a really good idea to focus on the why and how instead of the what.
    Only time will tell if it really is a better system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terp View Post
    Counterpoint:

    Actually this new system is designed to do the opposite. There are a bunch of high profile ridiculous examples floating around and surely the implementation needs some tweaking but it seems the main complaint is "this ain't how we did it". Well pages and pages of repetitive math problems are exactly what will turn someone into a robot. That's all about memorization and regurgitation. Why? Not important.

    Now a single problem that takes an hour requires lots of thinking and reasoning. Weird "backwards addition" shows how you can break numbers down into components. This skill is fundamental to pretty much all higher math. Maybe the reason a lot of people don't get calculus is they are trained to treat all numbers as solid blocks (or maybe not, what do I know)

    The point is sure there are some loopy questions and there is a learning curve (see what I did there?) But you should give it a chance to iron out the kinks. Overall it's a really good idea to focus on the why and how instead of the what.
    It's the "what" that ultimately counts in life. The how and why weren't important before. These kids are too young for this. Their brains aren't capable of absorbing something small that has been broadened into so much.

    Of course, I am open to necessary tweaks in the new system since I have no choice but to go with the flow of children dressed in all the exact same fatigues with all the exact same haircut and shoes and fingernail length and hair color and thoughts and function...to serve their country BETTER.

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    The idea is to teach critical thinking so that the problem IS NOT addressed the same way by everyone. This is to teach independent and critical thinking. It is not like the most recent system that saw us forcing calculus down a HS Sophomores throat. It is OK to slow down the level of class to ensure they have a solid understanding of why, from several different direction.

    I have played around with the 4/5th grade math with my kids. While the problems are not complex, the ways to get to the answer is varied and can be drawn out. Is it different than we did it. Oh yeah. Is it making "children dressed in all the exact same fatigues with all the exact same haircut and shoes and fingernail length and hair color and thoughts and function" No, not even close there Glenn Beck.

    I think somebody didn't enjoy the fact they had to say "I don't know" when their kid asked a question.

    The bigger issue is how much homework is too much. That is a product of lazy teaching. An elementary level student should have almost none baring the occasional project. Middle school/JR High should be no more than 1 hour a night. High school will be more but these all night assignments are ridiculous.
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    Mega RANT: Common Core Education System

    How cute - you have little hawglets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by girlonbike View Post
    How cute - you have little hawglets.
    Unhand my offspring, if you'd please.

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    Oh don't get me started.
    Problem is, in my opinion, this is yet another cockymainy scheme for some goober in academia to justify their existence. This will fall by the wayside just like the "new math" of the 70's as well as other "new ways" of doing math, or teaching reading, etc.
    My 8 year old was great at math. Now she hates it. Piling homework on 3rd graders is unreasonable. I will push my kid and challenge and require she do as well as she can in school, but this stuff is crap. Let me say that again...

    This stuff is crap.

    We're living it at our house, it's real, and it's crap.
    The problem is, in a few years when this crap is discarded as a failed attempt, it will be too late for the kids that are currently being used in this newest "experiment". We are setting kids up for failure, and teaching kids at their most formative times, to hate school and learning. That's a fact and no amount of "justification" will convince me otherwise.
    There is a reason states are dropping this. It isn't because it's difficult or parents don't understand, or people are confused. It is because the realization is becoming clearly apparent that this is a bunch of crap, a failed mess that isn't working, and parents aren't going to stand by and watch their kids drive and desire be destroyed by some failed social experiment.

    We sent man to the moon with a slide rule and a #2 pencil. Pocket calculators didn't even exist. Those guys learned to read with Sally, Dick, and Jane and had to memorize their multiplication tables, not do silly math word problems and an hours worth of homework each night in elementary school.

    Did I say "don't get me started"?

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    is this how the Chinese do it ?

    Oh and become a PTA Mother... and change it at your school.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishbucket View Post
    is this how the Chinese do it ?

    Oh and become a PTA Mother... and change it at your school.
    It's not up to our schools to decide. It's all part of Osama-bin-Obama's Socialist network plan. It's gonna happen whether we like it or not, just like the Socialist forced healthcare plan thingy.

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    oh.. in that case... Private School or Home School !
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishbucket View Post
    oh.. in that case... Private School or Home School !
    Sadly, that may become a bigger reality.

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    Counterpoint:
    given how fast the US is falling to the bottom of the heap in terms of math competency, we better foockin' try something different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Counterpoint:
    given how fast the US is falling to the bottom of the heap in terms of math competency, we better foockin' try something different.
    You do have a point but we don't all have to be rocket scientist in the end.

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    there was some article I seen somewhere that was saying we were putting to much emphasis on College degrees.
    and not enough on Manufacturing, Construction and Blue Collar Work.

    Even with student debt reaching $1 trillion, high school graduates are still seeking out traditional degrees in record numbers. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 68 percent of the high school class of 2010 was enrolled in college by the following October (that’s 2.2 million wide-eyed freshmen). But in this troubled and radically changing economy, a college education may not be the first must-have step down the path to financial success.
    Here 9 Hot Blue Collar Jobs (That Are Getting Hotter) | The Fiscal Times
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishbucket View Post
    there was some article I seen somewhere that was saying we were putting to much emphasis on College degrees.
    and not enough on Manufacturing, Construction and Blue Collar Work.
    I like what Mike Rowe has to say.

    Warning: the video is 40-min long.

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/qzKzu86Agg0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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    Bingo.
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    Re: Mega RANT: Common Core Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    we don't all have to be rocket scientist in the end.
    Agreed. But it would probably help a lot if everyone understood compound interest and the like

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    We only need one or two to understand it. The rest of us can just piggyback a ride
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    One problem can take 15-20 minutes to do???
    is this a long or short amount of time for a single problem?
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    It all started going downhill once teachers quit showing playoff baseball games in grade/junior high school classrooms.

    On a serious note, Hawg, as you know, and someone mentioned, every administration comes up with an education plan. Osama bin W. Bush had "No Child Left Behind". Failure. And Socialist agenda'ed at heart as well. The US is so far left behind in Math and Science that we shouldn't necessarily be saying "not everyone has to be a rocket scientist", even though that is true, but we absolutely should be saying, "what is working around the world, and how can we steal that formula." The reason: we can't even get kids through Algebra 2. Nor Geometry. Kids dead-end by Sophomore year. The actual statistics are pretty astounding. I don't know how the Common Core will work out, but what came before over the past 30 years most definitely sucked. Getting through Algebra 1, and no further, is not worthy of a high school diploma. Not today. Why? Because most kids upon graduation can't read or write at a 12th grade level either. We should be saying, "not every kid has to be a rocket scientist, but most every able-bodied kid should be reading, writing, and arithmeticing at the 12th grade level no matter where they end up." How we get there seems to be a mystery, but Common Core is pretty old-fashioned in focusing on the three R's and de-emphasizes culture, art, and other feelings-centered subjects that folks have railed against all these years.

    PS. Kudos to all the parents who are trying to hold their children accountable.

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    Whiners.

    I grew up in the Soviet Union. I would take my school education over what my kids are getting here. And it was boring and hard. Whatever.

    At least I get to drill my kids with Russian math textbooks. They are doing just fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    You do have a point but we don't all have to be rocket scientist in the end.
    It is not rocket science (says an actual rocket scientist of sorts), its math, and just being able to think like a scientist. It is useful everywhere.

    I got to teach Stanford freshmen in general physics for three years, when TAing in grad school. Smart kids, but they sure could use some hard math drilling in school.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Whiners.

    I grew up in the Soviet Union. I would take my school education over what my kids are getting here. And it was boring and hard. Whatever.

    At least I get to drill my kids with Russian math textbooks. They are doing just fine.
    I think your kids would be doing just fine with American text books as well. They have a Stanford educated specialist to tutor them. But, hey, I'd go for Russian texts too.

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    Home School.

    My daughter has home schooled all 3 of her kids and they are doing fine.

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    Mega RANT: Common Core Education System-dma-224.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpinata View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    That parent probably needs a calculator or at least paper to do even basic computation. Approach shown on that paper is a very useful technique to do such calculations in your head. So is an ability to find errors, instead of doing a problem from scratch, as that parent did. One needs to know both ways.

    In short, that sad comment is a good example of why improvements are needed. When somebody can get a bachelor in some engineering field, and still can not grasp a very simple alternative calculation technique.

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    I always love that "I'm very smart and I can't figure this out, so what the hell do you think you're doing" approach...

    Much too smart to learn... is that a thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zowie View Post
    I always love that "I'm very smart and I can't figure this out, so what the hell do you think you're doing" approach...

    Much too smart to learn... is that a thing?
    Called Dunning-Kruger effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpinata View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I'm no electrical engineer, in fact, I suck at math, IMO, but I can see how that problem is a good idea, It involves math problem solving, by identifying a mistake (Jack had it right for the first 3 100's) and the explaining what the mistake was in actual words. That's the way a math-challenged, but above-average writer kid, like I was, could learn math.

    Then again, I had absolutely no problem with math up until quadratic equations. My algebra teacher was also the assistant football coach. He was a nice guy, but he was a better coach than a math teacher, and our school had a football record of 1-11 on an average year. So, basically, he was a nice incompetent.

    The only school that we could beat was the teeny-tiny Catholic school down the way, who had like 400 students total. In fact, the football players in my high school, like Rodney Dangerfield, couldn't get no respect.

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    Maybe I learned it the wrong way, but I don't recall using differential equations to compute subtraction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    What in the hell is this crap?! Talk about boring and not challenging our children enough in school? One problem can take 15-20 minutes to do??? It's not the actual work that's different, it's the discussion of how it applies in life that is BORING, BORING, BORING and drawn out. This is not a Socialist country. Not everyone learns at the same pace. Not everyone agrees with the ideals of what examples the Common Core system is using. America was built on the foundation that is freedom. This new system is an attempt to make us function like robots or clones. My understanding is that some states implemented this system years ago and that it works for them. In a nutshell, my daughter had ONE math homework assignment last night. It took as long to do that one problem (due to watching STUPID and BORING animated tutoring videos) as it does for her to do a full page of problems. That just doesn't make sense. There isn't sufficient time to expose the students to a process over and over because one problem takes so long. I'm telling you, our children are going to become uninterested. Their attention spans will shorten. They will learn to rebel against this system. The outcry from the parents within our school district is HUGE!
    Hawg.......now, buddy; this post, and all of your other posts put together in this thread, don't amount to more than a mini-rant. I'm disappointed in you, son.

    I know that this is emptybeer, and its' owners, while they say "no politics!", also know their demographics. Their average poster is a white-male-middle-class-to-upper-class conservative, so they tolerate rightwing-nut stuff to the degree that it's probably good for their advertisers and vendors on this site.

    So maybe your'e being clever for taking advantage of this loop-hole, but at least you could have been a little bit gutsier...you know, death-panels, marxist-muslim-atheist all-in-one, etc. Maybe the Black U.N. Helicopters. Something like that. Don't forget all of the guns obama has confiscated from law-abiding, tax-paying citizens, either. And remember, never, ever, refer to him as the PRESIDENT of the United States, even if he was elected twice. We all know that was a crooked deal, right there.

    Enough with the milk-toast, rightwing bullsh*t. (See...I didn't violate the emptybeer "family-safe" clause there. Clever, no?) Give us some REAL RIGHTeous indignation-hate!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    It's not up to our schools to decide. It's all part of Osama-bin-Obama's Socialist network plan. It's gonna happen whether we like it or not, just like the Socialist forced healthcare plan thingy.
    No wonder you are having difficulty with math. The common core is a state driven program -nothing to do with Obama or any other black man. Colleges want to do away with the SAT and standardized tests. The problem is that a students 3.5 GPA in New Jersey means something more than someones GPA in Alabama or Kentucky. Without the SAT's to normalize this, how do you judge students? The common core was a plan by the states to standards grades and knowledge.

    The chinese go to school from 8 am to 5pm. They do this when they are 8 years old. They also blow us out the water in every education metric. Their stupid people are smarter than our stupid people and their smarter people are now smarter than our smart people.

    Education has no value in the USA anymore. And no, I don't like the common core. Terrible and poorly designed. The old way worked. We just needed more. I am for more homework.
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    It's not a socialist push. The idea is to standardize learning so the states can be on a similar page in terms of outcomes.

    The problem is with the overly fast implementation.

    Math is taking the biggest criticism because we see the drastic changes in the instruction of that subject. I too have gotten pissed at some of the problems my kids have brought home because some of those exploratory questions are just stupid.

    One area where I strongly disagree is with the notion that the old skill and drill methods are no longer relevant. We all need to know the basic facts before we can apply worthwhile reasoning. Make kids learn the basic facts and teach them how to handle all operations without a stinking calculator.

    For that matter, don't get rid of cursive.
    The only important thing these days, is rhythm and melody. Rhythm...and melody.

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    I don't have any issues with that math problem, other than the instructions did not specify that the response to Jack must be non-bullying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    It's not a socialist push. The idea is to standardize learning so the states can be on a similar page in terms of outcomes.

    The problem is with the overly fast implementation.

    Math is taking the biggest criticism because we see the drastic changes in the instruction of that subject. I too have gotten pissed at some of the problems my kids have brought home because some of those exploratory questions are just stupid.

    One area where I strongly disagree is with the notion that the old skill and drill methods are no longer relevant. We all need to know the basic facts before we can apply worthwhile reasoning. Make kids learn the basic facts and teach them how to handle all operations without a stinking calculator.

    For that matter, don't get rid of cursive.

    One of the real problems with Common Core,now that I see a few reason-driven posts like yours showing up on this thread, is that there are no new materials to go along with this approach.

    The teachers are told to just "download them from the internet".

    Imagine what that could result in. They might download this thread, after a Google search....

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    More crazy math...

    IIRC, this was '62.

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    Mega RANT: Common Core Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    The chinese go to school from 8 am to 5pm. They do this when they are 8 years old. They also blow us out the water in every education metric. Their stupid people are smarter than our stupid people and their smarter people are now smarter than our smart people.
    I do not believe the latter to be true. Smart people are smart anywhere, and a whole lot of them come to work in the Silicon Valley here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    I do not believe the latter to be true. Smart people are smart anywhere, and a whole lot of them come to work in the Silicon Valley here.
    We'll probably know the answer to this difference of opinions in about 10-15 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    No wonder you are having difficulty with math. The common core is a state driven program -nothing to do with Obama or any other black man.
    That's a cheap shot. Hawg may not agree with Obama and you, but he's not a racist.

    It's pretty obvious you're a progressive based on what I've seen in your other posts. I'm not a white, and you disagree with me - following your logic, I conclude that you are a racist

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    I agree with Katz^. Even if I am on his ignore list

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katz View Post
    That's a cheap shot. Hawg may not agree with Obama and you, but he's not a racist.

    It's pretty obvious you're a progressive based on what I've seen in your other posts. I'm not a white, and you disagree with me - following your logic, I conclude that you are a racist
    By his statement, it means your'e right, and he's wrong, because he implies that Asians are smarter.

    Well Chinese, anyway........but I figure it all crosses over. Like I say, Katz, we'll know in about 15 years if they are really all that much smarter than the collective U.S.
    I might be dead by then so personally I think the point is moot for me.

    For what its' worth though, my Chinese teachers always expressed an admiration for their Japanese martial arts contemporaries. They admired the Japanese cultures' tendency to meticulously organize their systems. The belt rank system comes from Japanese culture, and it has been picked up by everybody else.
    The Chinese never really had anything like that until they encountered the Japanese culture.

    My teacher really liked that. He also liked all manner of Japanese electronics, cameras, and optics. If he was still alive, I'm sure he would love Japanese cars. You would never catch him driving a Chinese-made sh*tpile.

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    I am getting my Six Sigma yellow belt, I must be channeling the correct approach. Maybe I should incorporate a belt structure throughout my life. I will report back on how this goes.

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    Six Sigma has a Yellow Belt?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Shumway View Post
    I am getting my Six Sigma yellow belt, I must be channeling the correct approach. Maybe I should incorporate a belt structure throughout my life. I will report back on how this goes.
    The American variant on the belt system is to really jazz it up with every color in the rainbow.

    This actually defeats the purpose of the original Japanese systems...they kept it pretty clear, and pretty simple.

    Now, we got yellow, orange, purple........reminds me of the old Terror-Threat warning system we had. Or do we still have it. Yellow-with blue dots? I found it utterly confusing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    One area where I strongly disagree is with the notion that the old skill and drill methods are no longer relevant. We all need to know the basic facts before we can apply worthwhile reasoning.
    Right there is a lot of the problem. There is no skill in this world that you can be proficient at unless you first learn the basics. When you just jump from 2+2 without learning basic addition and subtraction to any real fundamental degree and to multiplication without learning the multiplication tables, to trying to solve multiplication word problems without the basic requirement of learning the multiplication tables... and then jump into division, again without having learned or been taught multiplication tables, and then throw in some fractions, all within the first semester of third grade, you are setting these kids up for failure.

    You don't buy a bike and enter the Red Bull Rampage. Basics of ANYTHING must be mastered before moving on to the next level.

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    As an interesting aside for the east Asian turn in the conversation, the Dunning-Kruger effect Axe mentions has an interesting little snippet on the Wikipedia page:

    Studies on the Dunning–Kruger effect tend to focus on American test subjects. A study on some East Asian subjects suggested that something like the opposite of the Dunning–Kruger effect may operate on self-assessment and motivation to improve.[12] East Asians tend to underestimate their abilities, and see underachievement as a chance to improve themselves and get along with others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    Six Sigma has a Yellow Belt?
    Yellow/Green/Black - I am just getting started and since I manage a group of 20 analysts it is to help find inefficiencies in our workflow that waste time. Interesting but it's not going to be my core career by any means.

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    And if you REALLY want to know what's behind this Common Core, do like everything else, follow the money...

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    I had to look up all these fancy terms like 'differential equations' I'm no good at math or even spelling and grammar ( had to spell check grammar ) for that matter. Barely a 12th grade edu.,- that I've mostly forgotten- and no collage.
    I mostly get by on my charm, good looks and brawn...
    Hey Miraculous... Go Raiders ! .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishbucket View Post
    I had to look up all these fancy terms like 'differential equations' I'm no good at math or even spelling and grammar ( had to spell check grammar ) for that matter. Barely a 12th grade edu.,- that I've mostly forgotten- and no collage.
    I mostly get by on my charm, good looks and brawn...
    Not everybody can be a supermodel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpinata View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I have another chart to explain this parent's rant:

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    my kiddo excels in math and sciences but along with that we push him to the creative side a little more since he entered junior high. there will be ample amount of sheep grazing out there in every category. i have to raise a full on wolf at my house.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Ray View Post
    By his statement, it means your'e right, and he's wrong, because he implies that Asians are smarter.

    Well Chinese, anyway........but I figure it all crosses over. Like I say, Katz, we'll know in about 15 years if they are really all that much smarter than the collective U.S.
    I might be dead by then so personally I think the point is moot for me.

    For what its' worth though, my Chinese teachers always expressed an admiration for their Japanese martial arts contemporaries. They admired the Japanese cultures' tendency to meticulously organize their systems. The belt rank system comes from Japanese culture, and it has been picked up by everybody else.
    The Chinese never really had anything like that until they encountered the Japanese culture.

    My teacher really liked that. He also liked all manner of Japanese electronics, cameras, and optics. If he was still alive, I'm sure he would love Japanese cars. You would never catch him driving a Chinese-made sh*tpile.
    No group is smarter than another group. It is all about what you put in. Right now, in China and India, education is the way out - in many cases the only way out. We don't work like that any more.

    Most Chinese hate the Japanese. They desperately want American goods - not Chinese and definitely not Japanese!
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Shumway View Post
    I am getting my Six Sigma yellow belt, I must be channeling the correct approach. Maybe I should incorporate a belt structure throughout my life. I will report back on how this goes.
    How are you coming on your handshakefulness?

    <iframe src="//player.vimeo.com/video/24784020?title=0&amp;byline=0&amp;portrait=0" width="500" height="381" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe> <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/24784020">30 Rock Six Sigma</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user7356940">Bob Burtowsky</a> on <a href="https://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>
    buzzes like a fridge

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    No group is smarter than another group. It is all about what you put in. Right now, in China and India, education is the way out - in many cases the only way out. We don't work like that any more.

    Most Chinese hate the Japanese. They desperately want American goods - not Chinese and definitely not Japanese!
    That of course is due to the recent history of the Japanese military treatment of China, such as the "rape of Nanjing".

    My teacher was very eclectic, as many Taiwanese are. They like good stuff, and they recognize it when they see it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    No group is smarter than another group. It is all about what you put in. Right now, in China and India, education is the way out - in many cases the only way out. We don't work like that any more.

    Most Chinese hate the Japanese. They desperately want American goods - not Chinese and definitely not Japanese!
    So I could have sworn the Chinese are fans of Japanese goods--
    From the China-Japan relations page:

    In 2008, China-Japan trade grew to $266.4 billion, a rise of 12.5 percent on 2007, making China and Japan the top two-way trading partners. China was also the biggest destination for Japanese exports in 2009.

    So now I'm curious--did trade plummet in 2010 and never recover?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    No group is smarter than another group.
    There are statistically significant differences in IQ. One could argue about the cause, but the difference is measurable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    There are statistically significant differences in IQ. One could argue about the cause, but the difference is measurable.
    Most IQ tests are biased and it would be very difficult to statistically determine that one ethnic group is inherently more intelligent than others. The only such study that I have seen has shown that people in the NE USA are smarter than those in Texas, Arizona and Alabama.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    Stupid people breed more and make more stupid people.
    As far as education in this country.....
    until big money and corruption's might subsides some in our political system, we will continue to be dumbed down and have things repackaged in an attempt to be offered less, while being led to believe we're getting more.
    Teacher's unions need to be more realistic and in line with student's needs, and quality teaching needs to be a more lucrative path.
    Or things will have to get so bad that once we realize that we're over the barrel we'll react.
    Round and round we go

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    Mega RANT: Common Core Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Most IQ tests are biased and it would be very difficult to statistically determine that one ethnic group is inherently more intelligent than others. The only such study that I have seen has shown that people in the NE USA are smarter than those in Texas, Arizona and Alabama.
    No, they are not "biased". They measure exactly what they measure. One could argue about its significance, or underlying causes, but the measured value is objective and well defined. You got a better intelligence test that correlates better with performance - introduce it.
    In other news, all the noise about "social" iq - it was shown that high measured social IQ actually correlates negatively with job performance, or at least much less that the regular IQ.
    Looks like it was another attempt at excuse from stupid people. Bias, "social" intellect. All bull crap.
    And there is only one "IQ" test. And you can not take it on the Internet. Rest is something else, correlated with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    No, they are not "biased". They measure exactly what they measure. One could argue about its significance, or underlying causes, but the measured value is objective and well defined. You got a better intelligence test that correlates better with performance - introduce it.
    In other news, all the noise about "social" iq - it was shown that high measured social IQ actually correlates negatively with job performance, or at least much less that the regular IQ.
    Looks like it was another attempt at excuse from stupid people. Bias, "social" intellect. All bull crap.
    And there is only one "IQ" test. And you can not take it on the Internet. Rest is something else, correlated with it.
    Stupid people are insidious and seem to have an incredibly devious lobby going for them.

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    Stupid people make easy targets for smart people and people with leadership skills. They can also make good pawns and cheap soldiers for the war machine, provided they follow orders, chain of command, and trust their leader. Hard to trust the current POTUS. So many lies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WNCGoater View Post
    And if you REALLY want to know what's behind this Common Core, do like everything else, follow the money...
    Pearson, to be exact.
    The only important thing these days, is rhythm and melody. Rhythm...and melody.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    Pearson, to be exact.
    There you go children, now go play with your Google and edjicate yerselves as to how the world works.

    Sad part is, the kids caught up in this profiteering and politics end up losing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WNCGoater View Post
    Sad part is, the kids caught up in this profiteering and politics end up losing.
    Losing what? If you imply that it is harder to obtain a quality education because of any particular way one presents school level math, I call bullish.t on that. Common core does not and will not make people stupid any more than any other educational framework.
    Want to improve education - I say take on teacher's unions.

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    Twenty years in education has taught me that Common Core is just another obstacle in the never ending trail. I teach at a top 4% performing high school that takes average level income kids and makes them perform at a much higher level. How do we do it? With better teachers of course, but the main reason for success is that the parents who care are able to send their kids inter-district to our school. Parenting is the factor that matters most. A responsible parent knows that their kids should be accountable for their grades(like we used to do). The parents know that those children with better grades are more likely to have later success and to not be dependent on their parents or the government for life. But, politicians won't get the votes of parents that they call bad parents or tell go get their sh*t together. So, they continue to unnecessarily make the teacher's job harder with little results because they don't want to target their supposed voters. Wasted money in my opinion. We are headed for an idiocracy if parents don't start doing a better job!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Losing what? If you imply that it is harder to obtain a quality education because of any particular way one presents school level math, I call bullish.t on that. Common core does not and will not make people stupid any more than any other educational framework.
    Want to improve education - I say take on teacher's unions.
    I didn't imply anything of the sort. Believe what you wish and state whatever beliefs you have but I'll thank you to not put words in my mouth. I'm not in a debate here.

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    Mega RANT: Common Core Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by WNCGoater View Post
    I'm not in a debate here.
    Just ranting?


    So what would kids lose?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TTTURNER View Post
    Parenting is the factor that matters most. We are headed for an idiocracy if parents don't start doing a better job!
    +1. Add culture to the mix, which is partly responsible for bad parenting. Forgive the cheap analogy, but until our culture cares as much about education as we do our cell phones, we don't have much of a chance. People squawk about education. Nobody wants to do the work. The extent of the conversation on education in this country boiled down: it's all the teachers and politicians fault. I get more lively, nuanced discussions on fantasy football and cell phone plans every day. Education is hard work. Supposed to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Danger View Post
    +1. Add culture to the mix, which is partly responsible for bad parenting. Forgive the cheap analogy, but until our culture cares as much about education as we do our cell phones, we don't have much of a chance. People squawk about education. Nobody wants to do the work. The extent of the conversation on education in this country boiled down: it's all the teachers and politicians fault. I get more lively, nuanced discussions on fantasy football and cell phone plans every day. Education is hard work. Supposed to be.
    Agreed^
    but doesn't change the fact that over time we put more and more into defense and other stuff, and less and less into education. We're down to bare bones with teacher basically teaching to the test so their school and district looks good. Defense, prisons, and now education has become biz. Add to that a society where it seems mostly no one wants to work too hard anymore, or take any responsibility, and welcome to modern day america. IMO it will have to get worse before it gets better.
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    Round and round we go

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    ^^^^No arguments here. Liberals have been fighting against this stuff for decades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Danger View Post
    ^^^^No arguments here. Liberals have been fighting against this stuff for decades.
    Well if you take a conservative icon like Ayn Rand, I'm not sure if she even agreed with the idea of PUBLIC education at all.
    Many conservatives believe that education should only be for those who can afford it.

    The difference as I see it, between the liberal and the conservative mindset on education, and of course this is an uber-simplified version, to say the least, like all my positions, for that matter...

    Anyways, the liberals seem to perceive everybody in a given society as being, to a greater or lesser extent, connected.
    Conservatives tend to emphasize the values of individualism over everything else.

    I see the value inherent in both perspectives, which proves that I am a very broad minded soul.
    And now excuse me while I pat myself on the back.

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    Old Ray, I hear you, and I think the point I was kind of trying to make is that, when it comes to education, Conservatives often start sounding like Liberals and Liberals often start sounding like Conservatives. Even this thread gives us a taste of that…and I'm not suggesting any poster in particular, but more the overall conversation. If we should be able to spot anything in this thread, it should be that the Common Core is the least of our educational problems.

    And remember, Ayn Rand ended up living off the government dole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Ray View Post
    I see the value inherent in both perspectives, which proves that I am a very broad minded soul.
    And now excuse me while I pat myself on the back.
    Careful there, Ray. Old flesh doesn't take too well to the repeated sensations caused by something like patting yourself on the back. You might bruise a bit after a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    Careful there, Ray. Old flesh doesn't take too well to the repeated sensations caused by something like patting yourself on the back. You might bruise a bit after a while.
    It's actually the old bones and rotator cuffs. Tricky stuff...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Danger View Post
    And remember, Ayn Rand ended up living off the government dole.
    Idk, Rand was conservative financialy but that's pretty much where it ends. She was for women's rights, and for a women's right to abortion. Was also an Objectivist which isn't faith and traditional values based as a true conservative is. She also focused on the present and future, not the past, as a true conservative does. Was also for freedom of speech, and individualism. Get that a conservative from 20-30+ years ago would be considered dems by today's standards, but don't get why modern day wingers prop her up
    Round and round we go

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    Because they're trying to act as if they respect women's rights and individualism?

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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Idk, Rand was conservative financialy but that's pretty much where it ends. She was for women's rights, and for a women's right to abortion. Was also an Objectivist which isn't faith and traditional values based as a true conservative is. She also focused on the present and future, not the past, as a true conservative does. Was also for freedom of speech, and individualism. Get that a conservative from 20-30+ years ago would be considered dems by today's standards, but don't get why modern day wingers prop her up
    Well, wingers do make a habit of mis-reading a text.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Danger View Post
    Well, wingers do make a habit of mis-reading a text.
    They see in her a promise, albeit not direct, of the establishment of a permanent heredity-based wealthy class. Everything else is just pulp fiction.
    Although, many might argue with good reason that this situation has always existed, and the best chance for 'upward mobility' lies in successfully being recruited as a loyal 'minion' type.

    That is dangled in front of every stiff who has a mortgage.

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    So much drama.


    You guys need to travel more, just see how it is around...

    We do have it good, and no, it is not getting worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    So much drama.


    You guys need to travel more, just see how it is around...

    We do have it good, and no, it is not getting worse.
    I wanted to respond to this earlier, but the school internet provider where I am working(I'm on my lunch) is slow as hell. All of our upgrade money went to our new prisons.
    Yes, we do have it good comparatively, and motivated smart people will usually succeed in any type of economic system. But, I have seen the overall motivation level and respect for our education system, and adults, decrease tremendously over my years in education.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    So much drama.


    You guys need to travel more, just see how it is around...

    We do have it good, and no, it is not getting worse.
    Well, we are just talking education here, and there's conflicting data as to whether we're not getting worse. We graduate a larger percentage of students these days than we did, say, 30-40 years ago. However, we keep dropping in the world rankings where test scores are concerned. A lot of that has to do with improvements being made in other countries. We have it good in the sense that there is a functioning infrastructure in place. So the question is considering the amount of resources we do or do not put towards education, how are we doing? There's plenty of evidence to suggest it's getting worse. Not the sky is falling worse, but worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    No, they are not "biased". They measure exactly what they measure. One could argue about its significance, or underlying causes, but the measured value is objective and well defined. You got a better intelligence test that correlates better with performance - introduce it.
    In other news, all the noise about "social" iq - it was shown that high measured social IQ actually correlates negatively with job performance, or at least much less that the regular IQ.
    Looks like it was another attempt at excuse from stupid people. Bias, "social" intellect. All bull crap.
    And there is only one "IQ" test. And you can not take it on the Internet. Rest is something else, correlated with it.
    Sigh. Stupid is as stupid does. If you don't understand the nature of bias, it will be hard to discuss anything with you. And I have to laugh at being called stupid. What should we do, throw down our SAT, GRE, MCAT and Wechsler scores? Our educational pedigree? Please. Go back to having trouble with your daughters 5th grade math.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    Mega RANT: Common Core Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Sigh. Stupid is as stupid does. If you don't understand the nature of bias, it will be hard to discuss anything with you. And I have to laugh at being called stupid. What should we do, throw down our SAT, GRE, MCAT and Wechsler scores? Our educational pedigree? Please. Go back to having trouble with your daughters 5th grade math.
    Really. I do not understand the nature of bias. Please, tell me more. I am waiting to be enlightened.

    Trouble with 5th grade math? Where did you get that from? Just being an ass, I presume.

    Reading comprehension also was not your strong suit it seems. Who called you stupid? Where? I guess now I actually should do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Danger View Post
    +1. Add culture to the mix, which is partly responsible for bad parenting. Forgive the cheap analogy, but until our culture cares as much about education as we do our cell phones, we don't have much of a chance. People squawk about education. Nobody wants to do the work. The extent of the conversation on education in this country boiled down: it's all the teachers and politicians fault. I get more lively, nuanced discussions on fantasy football and cell phone plans every day. Education is hard work. Supposed to be.
    Agree with you 100%. Parents are too concerned about their kid getting on the right soccer, football, baseball or wrestling team than actually doing well in school. For many years, it did not matter. A "B-C" student (who was white) could pretty much be guaranteed a good job somewhere. Those days are ending. But don't blame the teachers. They are what they have always been. Parents don't care about education. Kids don't care about education.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Really. I do not understand the nature of bias. Please, tell me more. I am waiting to be enlightened.

    Trouble with 5th grade math? Where did you get that from? Just being an ass, I presume.

    Reading comprehension also was not your strong suit it seems. Who called you stupid? Where? I guess now I actually should do that.

    What a frickin cry baby. Who gives reps like that any more. Too funny.

    And to be clear, you are a Russian who believes in the intellectual superiority of certain races and ethnic groups. Just say what you mean. Just too funny. Heil Axe.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    Mega RANT: Common Core Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    What a frickin cry baby. Who gives reps like that any more. Too funny.

    And to be clear, you are a Russian who believes in the intellectual superiority of certain races and ethnic groups. Just say what you mean. Just too funny. Heil Axe.
    Astounding retort. Intelligent, relevant and well thought out. Bravo.

    Go on. Keep fighting strawmen. Amusing to see.

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