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    Mass Murder at the Batman Dark Knight Rises Opening

    There certainly are a lot of people around with rage issues and mis-wired connections in their brains.

    A gunman armed with three weapons, including a rifle, opened fire in a theater crowded with families and children at a midnight showing of the Batman movie “The Dark Knight Rises” in a Denver suburb early Friday morning, killing at least 12 people and wounding at least 38 others, the local police and federal officials said.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/21/us...g.html?_r=1&hp

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    So very sad. Heard about it on the radio this morning.

    I'll go see the movie; but, I don't like fighting "opening night" crowds. It's not that important to me. Maybe in a week or two I'll venture into a theater to watch it with the thinning crowds...

    EDIT: Here's a quote in the article.
    “I saw a man walk in through the exit,” a witness told a reporter from 9NEWS in Colorado, saying he threw what appeared to be a pair of gas canisters to the ground. “He waited for both the bombs to explode before he did anything. Then, after both of them exploded, he began to shoot.”
    If I see someone come in through an exit and throw down some canisters, I'm at least hitting the ground. If I'm close to an exit all you'd see is my behind as I race away...

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    I'm hearing reports of a baby being injured in the incident.... WHO TAKES AN INFANT TO A MIDNIGHT MOVIE SHOWING?!??!?!?!?
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    Quote Originally Posted by XLNC View Post
    I'm hearing reports of a baby being injured in the incident.... WHO TAKES AN INFANT TO A MIDNIGHT MOVIE SHOWING?!??!?!?!?
    Thoughtless parents...
    Last edited by marpilli; 07-20-2012 at 09:00 AM.

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    Horrible.

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    It's pretty sad that you can't even feel safe going to see a movie nowadays. I'm afraid that we are going to enter a state of fear that these types of massacres could occur anywhere. It's just really a tragedy and my thoughts go out to the victims and anyone effected - families, friends, etc.

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    Edit: I stand corrected. I was told Colorado was not a CCW state. Wrong information.

    I still believe one or two armed citizens in that crowd may have helped end that horrible situation.
    Last edited by Brewtality; 07-20-2012 at 07:26 PM.
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    CCW or not there was smoke grenades and panic I don't think a second shooter would have helped. Woulda coulda shoulda...... this tragedy is just sad.

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    I agree with Adim_X. this guy threw tear gas into the movie theater. At least some people thought it was part of the show. CCW would not have made a difference. You'd have been shooting blind, clearly an unsafe situation, and the last thing you need in this case is a gunfight with double the stray bullets.

    Best way out of this would have been to hit the deck until he ran out of bullets. He had a gas mask, so had a huge advantage over everyone else when he tossed those canisters.

    This guy booby trapped his apartment in a serious way. He's got major problems.

  11. #11
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    uhh shooter was also wearing a vest..... so unless you were prepared for war like he was, you likely would only have acheived your own bullet wound for your efforts.

    Also like Nate said, the last thing you want in that situation is TWO guys (or more) volleying bullets into the chaos.
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    Profile of a mass shooter

    Not quite what I expected in a mass killer.

    Dr. Michael Welner, a forensic psychiatrist who is chairman of The Forensic Panel, a practice in New York City, has worked on mass-shooting cases for many years and shared some general thoughts about these kinds of incidents:


    “Mass shooting cases have the common motive of an attacker seeking immortality. Each of the attackers have different degrees of paranoia and resentment of the broader community. Some are so paranoid that they’re psychotic. Others are paranoid in a generally resentful way but have no significant psychiatric illness. But you have to hate everyone in order to kill anyone. The threshold that the mass shooter crosses is one in which he decides that his righteous indignation and entitlement to destroy is more important than the life of any random person that he might kill.”



    “This is why mass shooting are invariably, invariably carried out by people who have had high self esteem. They are people who had high expectations of themselves. It’s not at all surprising to hear about these crimes in people who either valued their own intelligence or their own career prospects at one time.”



    “They’re people who are unfailingly unable to form satisfying sexual attachments and their masculinity essentially gets replaced with their fascination for destruction.”

    “The overwhelming majority of folks who do this are male because of how, in our culture, masculine identity is so closely tied to the capacity to destroy.”


    Colorado shooting, Colorado theater shooting, Colorado, movie theater shooting, | Washington Post live blog
    Makes sense, I don't recall any female mass killer/shooters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    Garunteed the casualty list would be a lot lower if this had happened in a CCW state
    Not that it makes any difference at all, but Colorado is a CCW state....
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangaroo View Post
    It's pretty sad that you can't even feel safe going to see a movie nowadays. I'm afraid that we are going to enter a state of fear that these types of massacres could occur anywhere.
    If you think like this then they win. The chances this or something similar ever happening to you would be astronomical. You are more likely to die by an ultra high energy particle coming from space. Are you afraid of that? Of course not, but if it happens it happens.
    I don't worry about these things, I'll just go insane then. There is no protection against psychos. And there are a few out there. Just look at norway last year.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    Garunteed the casualty list would be a lot lower if this had happened in a CCW state


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    It did....Colorado is a CCW state.
    Problem is this is a "kiddie" movie and so most of the audiance seems to have been under 21. All the interviews and stuff I have seen were teens and adolecents. Some parents were there to take their kids, or in one case a 4month old at a midnight screening.... Since you have to be 21 to get your CCW here amongst other requirements, the chance was low that someone there would have had theirs unfortunately.

    Edit: Plus all the above posted stuff, dont think there was much of a chance to return effective fire...and as a CCW you are responsible for each bullet that comes out of your gun.
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    Anybody else who drew down and fired in that crowd would have resulted in causing even more 'collateral' damage'. Not exactly an ideal 'field of fire'.

    The shooter is a local boy who graduated high school here in San Diego. He was going to Med. school there, working on a Phd. I saw his pic on local TV from the High School yearbook....a happy, energetic-looking kid.

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    Thoughts and prayers to all affected...very sad

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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    If you think like this then they win. The chances this or something similar ever happening to you would be astronomical.
    Speaking of steep odds Colorado 'Dark Knight Rises' Massacre: Victim Narrowly Escaped Toronto Shooting
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    Really sucks......but nut-jobs are nut-jobs.....doesn't have to make sense.


    So how long before the TSA Screenings start happening when you go to the movies?? "Sir, would you please remov your belt and shoes before going through th metal detector?"
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    I have a cousin who started school at Colombine a year after the shooting, my aunt and uncle live in Aurora now. weird.

    Anyways, if your disturbed and need to kill people, just kill yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbikej View Post
    "Sir, would you please remov your belt and shoes before going through th metal detector?"
    I would politely answer: **** you! If that happened. I have integrity and priciples, what can I say.
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    Really sad and a sick individual. Waiting for the motive which won't be out for a long time but, I think Ebay and other online sellers that sell mil-tact body armor should look more into this and who is buying their products as most people can't obtain this type of protection. Yes, you can buy these items but, like I said with looking into it, there should be more strenuous steps put in place to acquire these items. Not to mention he had an AR-15, shotgun, handgun, and one other handgun. Either way, this will cause security to expand. Any place that is a mass gathering of people could be a target and while this could piss you off that there is security put in place its for your own good, taking away more of your rights or not. I would rather have someone there to protect people if something should occur then have something like this happen.Then again if there is a will there is a way but taking steps to prevent these incidents is better then nothing. His place is also rigged with booby traps preventing authorities from an entering and could potentially destroy some evidence as to his motives behind this. This was a horrible event that took place and very sad. There is another news conference at 7pm from the Chief of police in Aurora.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hutch3637 View Post
    Any place that is a mass gathering of people could be a target and while this could piss you off that there is security put in place its for your own good, taking away more of your rights or not. I would rather have someone there to protect people if something should occur then have something like this happen.Then again if there is a will there is a way but taking steps to prevent these incidents is better then nothing.
    I guess some people don't agree with your "plz government help me, protect me, save me, rescue me, victim 4 life" stance here since its a ****ing illusion! Only you can help yourself. Only you can protect yourself. If you neglect to do this bad things can possibly happen to you. surprise surprise...

    The trend is very quickly moving into fascist territory. Where you basically live in a prison asking for premission to take a **** or breathe air. I don't see the necessity to employ such a draconian society just because some people got murdered. Remember that norwegian guy killed like 80 people and what did norway do?? Not a god damn thing! Oh I forgot, they banned the semiautomatic rifle from ruger as a hunting weapon (and its quite shitty hunting rifle imo), but exept from that nothing, because this is not fought with TSA scanners, stasi and laws, its fought with changing the mentality of the population, and thats the only way.

    You live in ****ed up country; expect ****ed up people.. easy as that, a product of the enviroment.

    here are some good quotes

    Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
    Benjamin Franklin Even back in the good old days they knew, they ****ing knew the solution was not the one you suggest.

    I also like this one.
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions
    I don't want to live in hell just becuse a few people cannot stay mentally sane, why do I have to suffer for that? for the greater good of the population? What population? the population with TSA scanners on their front doors?? Fcuk that sh1t! Who would want to revert back to the stone age?? WTF have we been creating here for a few 1000 years then? Was all that for nothing? WTF.
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    A responsible CCW holder wouldnt (i would hope) randomly fire across a crowded theater. instead, he would assess his target wisely, and wait for an appropriate time to remove that POS from the gene pool, and save the taxpayers of colorado hundreds of thousands of dollars in court costs and housing costs for the dipsh!t in prison.

    i have to admit that the shooting didnt surprise me, as much as the fact that obama and romney both wasted no time chiming in on a local crime- that two politicians with no ties at all to aurora, or colorado in general, would have any reason to comment except to score political points.
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    Relevant:
    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/PezlFNTGWv4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    Yea it should be in the news, but I really do think these things become so publicized its counter productive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    I guess some people don't agree with your "plz government help me, protect me, save me, rescue me, victim 4 life" stance here since its a ****ing illusion! Only you can help yourself. Only you can protect yourself. If you neglect to do this bad things can possibly happen to you. surprise surprise...

    The trend is very quickly moving into fascist territory. Where you basically live in a prison asking for premission to take a **** or breathe air. I don't see the necessity to employ such a draconian society just because some people got murdered. Remember that norwegian guy killed like 80 people and what did norway do?? Not a god damn thing! Oh I forgot, they banned the semiautomatic rifle from ruger as a hunting weapon (and its quite shitty hunting rifle imo), but exept from that nothing, because this is not fought with TSA scanners, stasi and laws, its fought with changing the mentality of the population, and thats the only way.

    You live in ****ed up country; expect ****ed up people.. easy as that, a product of the enviroment.
    Where was my please help me government statement, victim for life comment? True only you can protect yourself but as someone who has worked to protect people's lives and well being I take a different stand on security for others not, "oh we need more help, save me big brother". What I suggested is that more stringent requirements and procedures be put in place to purchase these items. Yes we live in a messed up world where individuals do unspeakable actions but, we also need people to deal with these problems; prior, during and after. Doing a background check and other requirements to purchase weapons and armor might just be enough to throw up a red flag about someone unless done behind back doors and illegally.
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  28. #28
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    Must be hard to see and aim in a dark theater with a gas mask on; I mighta rushed him if I could get his flank in the panic ... What a dumb waste

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    I live about an hour north. This is the same community that had the Columbine HS shooting several years ago. Two major mass murders in the same sub-division.
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    Quote Originally Posted by knutso View Post
    Must be hard to see and aim in a dark theater with a gas mask on; I mighta rushed him if I could get his flank in the panic ... What a dumb waste
    yeah, taking him down like this might have been better than shooting blindly at him. Get him when he's switching weapons or looking the other way or whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    Garunteed the casualty list would be a lot lower if this had happened in a CCW state


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    i hate how everytime something awful like this happens, the first thing pro-gun idiots start saying is that it would have been stopped if there were more guns.

    there was already active duty military in the crowd anyways, the guy had a bullet proof vest, gas mask and i think something over his head. someone sitting there enjoying the movie would not be able to reasonably take him down once he started firing. In order for a potential victim to shoot a killer in a situation like that, they would have to always be prepared, and think everyone was the potential next mass killer. thats a recipe for more murder imo.

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    "Everyone's laughing at me. No one sees my potential" Is how the German gun man is quoted from his internet posting before the attack. The Aurora gunmen was a post graduate student in neuroscience who could not get a job. Both were bright guys that fit the profile of a mass shooter that I posted above. There is not one response to that yet we get the usual reaction based wannabe macho responses about how a CCW holder could have taken the guy out and now what seems like a plea to censor the media reporting of the event. Neither get anywhere near the root cause which is male persons with a lot of potential "who are unfailingly unable to form satisfying sexual attachments and their masculinity essentially gets replaced with their fascination for destruction.”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guerdonian View Post
    I live about an hour north. This is the same community that had the Columbine HS shooting several years ago. Two major mass murders in the same sub-division.
    Columbine happened in Littleton which is about 20 miles away from Aurora, where this latest shooting happened. Close enough though, I'm wondering what's in the water in the Denver metro area?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hutch3637 View Post
    Where was my please help me government statement, victim for life comment? True only you can protect yourself but as someone who has worked to protect people's lives and well being I take a different stand on security for others not, "oh we need more help, save me big brother". What I suggested is that more stringent requirements and procedures be put in place to purchase these items. Yes we live in a messed up world where individuals do unspeakable actions but, we also need people to deal with these problems; prior, during and after. Doing a background check and other requirements to purchase weapons and armor might just be enough to throw up a red flag about someone unless done behind back doors and illegally.
    Along with a background checks, I think people should have to pass an IQ test and have a mental evaluation in order to purchase a gun. Although that won't stop the problem with these mass murders because these same nut-jobs will be able to buy a gun on the black market quite easily, but at least it's a start.

    I like the second amendment, you should be able to bear arms as long as you are smart enough and not a raving lunatic.

    My nephew lost his life at 3 years of age becasue my idiot brother-in-law did not secure his 9mm hand gun. He found the gun in between the mattress and shot himself in the head. I guarantee you my brother-in-law would not pass a basic IQ test.
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    My thoughts go out to all of those affected by this. Very sad.
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    My thoughts and prayers are with those affected by this tragedy. This state has had a rough 2012 so far.... Hope it gets better soon!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pecsokak View Post
    i hate how everytime something awful like this happens, the first thing pro-gun idiots start saying is that it would have been stopped if there were more guns.

    there was already active duty military in the crowd anyways, the guy had a bullet proof vest, gas mask and i think something over his head. someone sitting there enjoying the movie would not be able to reasonably take him down once he started firing. In order for a potential victim to shoot a killer in a situation like that, they would have to always be prepared, and think everyone was the potential next mass killer. thats a recipe for more murder imo.
    Michael Moore himself, in an interview I've heard, says that the problem is not with the amount of guns we have. This is specifically an American problem. There are some countries with very lax gun laws, and nobody gets shot like we do here (see Switzerland gun laws).

    Mental illness is really swept under the rug here in the States. I had a brother who committed suicide and was severely mentally ill. The experience opened up my eyes to how poorly the system handles mentally ill people. With embarrassment, many families completely ignore symptoms or actions in denial.

    Recently, my friends wife was shot and killed at Oikos College in Oakland, when a crazed gunman started blasting students. She was 40 yrs. old and a mother of three.

    My wife's friend was stabbed over 40 times when her husband, suffering from mental illness and discharged from the Marines, butchered her.

    Instead of quietly saying to oneself, "Wow, that guy really ain't all there..." People need to speak up. Almost every case of these things happening, people come back and report after the fact, "He was so quiet, to himself and introverted..."

    Parents and family know if their son has a problem. They should seek help for the kid instead of denying/ignoring it. In the case of my wife's friend, the military did very little for her sick husband.

    These killings are NOT a gun problem, but a problem with the way mental illness is being handled/treated in our society. But because this society has no clue on how to deal with mental illness, or we are in such denial about it, the politicians will go after guns - and guess what? This will happen again, because more gun laws will not solve these problems.

    Gun laws won't fix our mental illness problems.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by pecsokak View Post
    i hate how everytime something awful like this happens, the first thing pro-gun idiots start saying is that it would have been stopped if there were more guns.

    there was already active duty military in the crowd anyways, the guy had a bullet proof vest, gas mask and i think something over his head. someone sitting there enjoying the movie would not be able to reasonably take him down once he started firing. In order for a potential victim to shoot a killer in a situation like that, they would have to always be prepared, and think everyone was the potential next mass killer. thats a recipe for more murder imo.

    Wow... Pro gun idiots huh?

    What the hell does the fact that active duty military personnel being the theater have to do with anything?? Do you think we carry weapons with us 24-7? Because we don't, making your point irrelevant.

    As for the body armor he was wearing. Have you ever been shot or seen someone who's been shot while wearing body armor? It doesn't feel good and I guarantee that if that spineless piece of **** had been tagged with a couple rounds he would have dropped. Even if he wasn't hit I guarantee he would have ran for cover giving others the opportunity to flee the theater.

    Your average civilian concealed carrying would react the same as everyone else, confused and scared. Their first reaction would be to freeze, drop for cover or run away. If someone had the sense about them to seek cover, draw their weapon and return fire I would venture a guess that they are well trained or have significant experience in similar situations or both guaranteeing that they wouldn't be firing blindly through a crowd of people at the perp.

    Next, think about how you would react to an individual firing at you. Common sense would tell you to either get the hell down or move AWAY from the gunfire. They said the shooter entered through the emergency exit door at the front of the theater and began moving up the stairs toward the rear, shooting randomly. The interviews of most of the individuals that escaped the scene all said they dropped to the ground and waited until the firing stopped before they ran for the exit. Now how crowded do you think your lane of fire would be if everyone either moved AWAY from the gunfire or ducked for cover? My guess would be not very crowded.

    As for the supposed "tear gas" people said that it smelled like fireworks. As someone who has been subjected to CS gas numerous times I can tell you that it sure as hell smells and burns a lot more than the smell of fireworks and it is still possible to shoot, move and communicate effectively without a protective mask.


    Dion, you make an excellent point. A gun is just a tool, an inanimate object that has to be acted upon to create a reaction. Sick individuals kill people, not the tools they use.

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    whoever the fcukhead is thay negged me "please keep the politics out of the thread please", i just want to say- eat a dick. nah, strike that- eat a whole bag of dicks.

    you think *i* made it political by stating that i thought it was in poor taste for both obama and romney to jump on this and make points? wait a couple of days and see how political it gets. i aint even pickin sides here, i think they were both dumb sh!ts for getting on the sympathy train and trying to milk it.

    spineless twat, learn to sign your neg rep so i can kick you in the dick in PMs instead of airing it out in the thread.
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    lots of collateral damage going on here when this 71 year old man deals with 2 armed robbers possibly saving the lives of numerous people.

    It's funny how no one makes a big deal out of the responsible gun owner who potentially saved the lives of numerous people.
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    Bloomberg is an idiot and part of the problem. Guns didn't do this. Neither Presidential candidate needs to or can do anything about this...well other than discontinuing business as usual in the govt. A greater divide between rich and the rest of Americans and progressively weeding out average folk from living a "normal", affordable life is what does this type of thing. You can either have freedom or a police state. With freedom comes this crap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I had a brother who committed suicide and was severely mentally ill. The experience opened up my eyes to how poorly the system handles mentally ill people. With embarrassment, many families completely ignore symptoms or actions in denial.

    Recently, my friends wife was shot and killed at Oikos College in Oakland, when a crazed gunman started blasting students. She was 40 yrs. old and a mother of three.

    My wife's friend was stabbed over 40 times when her husband, suffering from mental illness and discharged from the Marines, butchered her.
    Does everybody you know die a horrible death?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbnoobadam View Post
    lots of collateral damage going on here when this 71 year old man deals with 2 armed robbers possibly saving the lives of numerous people.
    LOL, that old man kicks @ss.
    Hey Ma! Look at this laceration.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbnoobadam View Post
    lots of collateral damage going on here when this 71 year old man deals with 2 armed robbers possibly saving the lives of numerous people.
    Hey yeah, because a WELL LIT store with 30 PEOPLE and a dark Theater with a smoke bomb deployed with almost 100 people are the same thing.....

    Edit: lol at the one guy walking on the other guy to get out of the place.
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    Thank God the 2nd Amendment protected the sh*tbag's right to bear arms. It's easier in some parts of this country to buy a gun than it is to get a driver's license. Does every idiot get a driver's license? No! You have to pass a test or two to demonstrate proficiency. This guy is apparently proficient and pretty smart and he probably would've been able to pass any test. Nevertheless, maybe that type of screening process would have raised some eyebrows, especially since this guy picked up some pretty heavy duty weapons over a fairly short period of time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleedin' Bill View Post
    Thank God the 2nd Amendment protected the sh*tbag's right to bear arms. It's easier in some parts of this country to buy a gun than it is to get a driver's license. Does every idiot get a driver's license? No! You have to pass a test or two to demonstrate proficiency. This guy is apparently proficient and pretty smart and he probably would've been able to pass any test. Nevertheless, maybe that type of screening process would have raised some eyebrows, especially since this guy picked up some pretty heavy duty weapons over a fairly short period of time.
    As I stated before, guns have less to do with incidents like this than mental illness issues. Considering how many guns per capita in the US, it's a miracle that things like this don't happen more often. That miracle is called "sanity".

    You see, most gun owners don't go around blasting people. We just don't.

    Sick people who need to be on medication (or institutionalized) go around blasting people, they go around stabbing people, they go around raping children, torturing animals, and flying planes into skyscrapers.

    The government can't go around controlling every sharp weapon on the planet. You see it at the airport when you're stopped when you attempt to bring on more than 3oz. of toothpaste.

    What we can do is identify these very ill people and get them out of society. It's what they do with online predators - why can't we do it with other ill people? Why? Because treating mental illness is not what the politicians want to do - they want gun laws passed. That's much easier than to tell parents of weird kids to screen them for mental illness.

    The kid at Virginia Tech... the parents KNEW he had problems, but did NOTHING about it - simply because the Asian culture doesn't deal with those things. They swept it under the rug.

    I bet, when we investigate this kid's history, all kinds of stuff will come up that are serious red flags for going postal. But... nobody cares about that - let's turn this into a gun law debate instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleedin' Bill View Post
    It's easier in some parts of this country to buy a gun than it is to get a driver's license
    Luckily there has never, ever been a person who has driven a car without a proper license, huh?

    Licensing and regulating guns will not fix the problem, because I implore you to search the internet for the %age of crimes that are committed by a properly licensed person using a properly licensed firearm. Likely it'll be between none and negligible.


    However, having said that, I'm also NOT for flooding the population with their own firearms, because in my opinion to contradict the video, most people that have the guns are killers. The guys in that video aren't killers. They're pretty much petty thugs and the gun is only a prop to them. If they were serious killers, the old man would have had a clip emptied in his chest as an example. We here in Canada just had our own example last week. A gun fight erupted at a neighbourhood block party/BBQ where 2 were killed and 24 others were injured in the crossfire including a chld.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    As I stated before, guns have less to do with incidents like this than mental illness issues. Considering how many guns per capita in the US, it's a miracle that things like this don't happen more often. That miracle is called "sanity".

    You see, most gun owners don't go around blasting people. We just don't.

    Sick people who need to be on medication (or institutionalized) go around blasting people, they go around stabbing people, they go around raping children, torturing animals, and flying planes into skyscrapers.

    The government can't go around controlling every sharp weapon on the planet. You see it at the airport when you're stopped when you attempt to bring on more than 3oz. of toothpaste.

    What we can do is identify these very ill people and get them out of society. It's what they do with online predators - why can't we do it with other ill people? Why? Because treating mental illness is not what the politicians want to do - they want gun laws passed. That's much easier than to tell parents of weird kids to screen them for mental illness.

    The kid at Virginia Tech... the parents KNEW he had problems, but did NOTHING about it - simply because the Asian culture doesn't deal with those things. They swept it under the rug.

    I bet, when we investigate this kid's history, all kinds of stuff will come up that are serious red flags for going postal. But... nobody cares about that - let's turn this into a gun law debate instead.
    For the most part, I think we agree. Although, for the life of me, I can't understand why anyone needs a semi-automatic assault weapon with a 100 round magazine. Most of my friends are gun owners and I am not worried about any of them. It's the screening process (or lack thereof) that's the problem. Criminals and the mentally ill should not own guns. It's easy to check for a criminal record. It's not so easy to detect the crazies. The testing I suggested might snag a few of them before they can do damage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XLNC View Post
    Luckily there has never, ever been a person who has driven a car without a proper license, huh?

    Licensing and regulating guns will not fix the problem, because I implore you to search the internet for the %age of crimes that are committed by a properly licensed person using a properly licensed firearm. Likely it'll be between none and negligible.


    However, having said that, I'm also NOT for flooding the population with their own firearms, because in my opinion to contradict the video, most people that have the guns are killers. The guys in that video aren't killers. They're pretty much petty thugs and the gun is only a prop to them. If they were serious killers, the old man would have had a clip emptied in his chest as an example. We here in Canada just had our own example last week. A gun fight erupted at a neighbourhood block party/BBQ where 2 were killed and 24 others were injured in the crossfire including a chld.
    Sure, a gun can be bought illegally. That adds another layer of difficulty. Seems like the nuts generally don't go that way since, as long as they have no criminal record, they can legally do what this guy did. No hassle, no problem. Short of a full-blown psychiatric evaluation, it seems to me that a testing process where someone who has no interest in making a sale can at least eyeball the candidate might make it tougher for these types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleedin' Bill View Post
    For the most part, I think we agree. Although, for the life of me, I can't understand why anyone needs a semi-automatic assault weapon with a 100 round magazine. Most of my friends are gun owners and I am not worried about any of them. It's the screening process (or lack thereof) that's the problem. Criminals and the mentally ill should not own guns. It's easy to check for a criminal record. It's not so easy to detect the crazies. The testing I suggested might snag a few of them before they can do damage.
    The only people that have "assault" weapons with high capacity mags are military, SWAT, Al Queda, and deep,deep criminals. You cannot obtain an "assault" weapon legally, no matter what test you pass. An AR15 is nowhere near an assault weapon, not even close. It's nothing but a hopped up Mini14. Same caliber, just more accurate. if you want a full auto gun, you have to walk through a ton of red tape and pay very high permit taxes.

    There are many rules that the Feds place on guns. Try cutting a shotgun barrel shorter than 18". Most guns owners are so afraid to crossing over that assault rifle line, they don't mess with it. I have 20 round capacity magazine kits, which are disassembled. The MOMENT I assemble them into magazines, I am in violation.

    It sounds like you're not aware of how tough gun laws are. They don't sell these things at drug stores.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    The only people that have "assault" weapons with high capacity mags are military, SWAT, Al Queda, and deep,deep criminals. You cannot obtain an "assault" weapon legally, no matter what test you pass. An AR15 is nowhere near an assault weapon, not even close. It's nothing but a hopped up Mini14. Same caliber, just more accurate. if you want a full auto gun, you have to walk through a ton of red tape and pay very high permit taxes.

    There are many rules that the Feds place on guns. Try cutting a shotgun barrel shorter than 18". Most guns owners are so afraid to crossing over that assault rifle line, they don't mess with it. I have 20 round capacity magazine kits, which are disassembled. The MOMENT I assemble them into magazines, I am in violation.

    It sounds like you're not aware of how tough gun laws are. They don't sell these things at drug stores.
    Point well taken. Let me rephrase. For the life of me, I can't understand why anyone needs a semi-automatic weapon with a 100 round magazine.

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    Amen Dion, regarding this being a mental health problem. There is mental illness in my extended family and I see on a regular basis how poorly it's handled.

    "but she's not a danger to herself or anyone else" ********, I say. Anyone with schizophrenia is a time bomb. They might be fine one minute and lose it the next. I've seen it happen. Folks with mental illness need serious supervision, better diagnosis, and sadly many need their freedoms taken away to prevent them from becoming dangerous.

    These are not illnesses we can cure. A lot of the time, they can barely be managed due to poor compliance regarding medication

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleedin' Bill View Post
    For the most part, I think we agree. Although, for the life of me, I can't understand why anyone needs a semi-automatic assault weapon with a 100 round magazine.
    because in general it is not the populace we need to defend ourselves against, it is the government. and if the government can arm troops with 100-round magazines, why shouldnt the people be able to defend themselves against such possible oppression with the exact same armament?

    this killing is not a gun rights issue, or a pro-gun advocacy issue. none of that is relevant except for the fact that there wasnt a CCW holder in the audience to provide some 2nd amendment justification at the time. this killing is a criminal issue, and for all we know there may have been absolutely nothing we as a people could have done to prevent this from happening, despite what the talking heads and politicians will have to say on the matter. sometimes people snap, and sh!t happens. yeah, life sucks and sometimes people die because of it, but are you willing to give up your rights as a free man or woman just because bad sh!t sometimes happens?

    i sure the hell aint, and i am more than willing to roll those dice and say that i just might be one of the people that bad sh!t happens to someday- but because i might be one of the victims, i dont have any intention of taking the right of others away from them. not even the people who might turn out to be bad- this isnt a pre-crime society yet, despite the best efforts of the pseudo-intellectuals who think they know best.

    life sucks. people died. i feel bad for the victims families, but at the same time the only thing that i see that needs changed is that gun laws for the general public ought to be relaxed- that way there are MORE people armed in public, and able to defuse situations like this. if that assclown heard shots coming from another weapon, he probably would have pissed himself and ran like the b!tch that he is- and in the grand scheme of things, if a CCW holder with bad aim wounded or killed an innocent bystander, yet at the same time defused the situation and prevented johnny fcukstick from killing another dozen people...whats the better outcome?
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    I am not against guns. I am against nuts with guns and it seems to me that we could be doing a better job of keeping them out of their hands. As for your point that we should have semi-autos with 100 round mags because the gov't has semi-autos with 100 round mags, does that mean that we should also be able to own tanks, grenades, smart bombs, rockets, aircraft carriers, etc.? I think I know your answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big terry View Post
    because in general it is not the populace we need to defend ourselves against, it is the government. and if the government can arm troops with 100-round magazines, why shouldnt the people be able to defend themselves against such possible oppression with the exact same armament?

    this killing is not a gun rights issue, or a pro-gun advocacy issue. none of that is relevant except for the fact that there wasnt a CCW holder in the audience to provide some 2nd amendment justification at the time. this killing is a criminal issue, and for all we know there may have been absolutely nothing we as a people could have done to prevent this from happening, despite what the talking heads and politicians will have to say on the matter. sometimes people snap, and sh!t happens. yeah, life sucks and sometimes people die because of it, but are you willing to give up your rights as a free man or woman just because bad sh!t sometimes happens?

    i sure the hell aint, and i am more than willing to roll those dice and say that i just might be one of the people that bad sh!t happens to someday- but because i might be one of the victims, i dont have any intention of taking the right of others away from them. not even the people who might turn out to be bad- this isnt a pre-crime society yet, despite the best efforts of the pseudo-intellectuals who think they know best.

    life sucks. people died. i feel bad for the victims families, but at the same time the only thing that i see that needs changed is that gun laws for the general public ought to be relaxed- that way there are MORE people armed in public, and able to defuse situations like this. if that assclown heard shots coming from another weapon, he probably would have pissed himself and ran like the b!tch that he is- and in the grand scheme of things, if a CCW holder with bad aim wounded or killed an innocent bystander, yet at the same time defused the situation and prevented johnny fcukstick from killing another dozen people...whats the better outcome?
    hey look, its someone that read the second amendment.

    i completely agree with this post- CCW could have helped to minimize the victims. for everyone saying "oh, but he had body armor, it wouldnt have done anything"... body armor thats available today isnt like bat mans body armor, bullets dont just fly the other direction. a mass amount of force is instantly stopped and absorbed by the armor, much of the energy is transferred to the body of the wearer, armor just prevents penetration. when you get hit with that much force, you stop what youre doing, and you probably go down, if you dont go down, you just get hit again. not to mention that a shot to his arm, leg, or shoulder would have been much more useful than no shot at all, and a shot to the head would have ended the problem.

    that being said, the theater had a "gun free zone" sticker on the entrance, so if there was an honest, law abiding citizen there with a CCW, they would have put it in the car anyway.

    to everyone saying that background checks or w/e else control measures you think do something, how do you think that would help? are you aware that there are several guns available on the street that people can get their hands on? if i wanted a fully automatic ak-47, im certain i could have one within days. in less time that it takes for the CA cooling off period to be done, i could own an assault weapon without paying taxes, getting permits, having it registered, or waiting. so what do restrictions do to help? nothing at all. i buy my guns legally and have no desire to own a gun that would have my rights taken from me.

    and to everyone that still doesnt understand the second amendment, "why do you need a 100 round magazine?", "why do you need an ar?", "why do you need more than 10 rounds?" - read the second amendment. it isnt there for defense in a movie theater, it isnt there for sport shooting, hunting, home defense, or collecting. the second amendment was put in place, "in order to secure a free state", meaning if the government goes rouge, the 2A is there so that you can fight it.

    when the government has ARs, M240s, 30, 60, 100 round magazines, belt fed automatics... you need to be allowed to have those in order to secure a free state.

    evil people will do evil things, whether law is there or not. OBVIOUSLY

    if laws stopped people from doing things, this thread wouldnt exist.

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    the actions of one lunatic will be exploited to reduce the right to bear arms.

    the destruction of thousands of lives dont count for chit in the fight to legalize drugs.

    its hard to debate people with double standards. no winning that debate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleedin' Bill View Post
    I am not against guns. I am against nuts with guns and it seems to me that we could be doing a better job of keeping them out of their hands. As for your point that we should have semi-autos with 100 round mags because the gov't has semi-autos with 100 round mags, does that mean that we should also be able to own tanks, grenades, smart bombs, rockets, aircraft carriers, etc.? I think I know your answer.
    if you think you know the answer, then why ask? instead, ask yourself- why does he think that?

    reference the second amendment during your research, and also look to the countries throughout the world that have disarmed their people over the years- and what had transpired in those countries after the populations were disarmed.

    the reason ANY government wishes to disarm its population, or severely restrict the gun ownership rights of its population, has nothing to do with the perceived safety aspect of the rest of the population- it has everything to do with limiting the competition of the government when it wishes to exact totalitarianism upon the people.

    if we the people have no guns, how are we to stop, or even contest, the oppression of our government? if you think taking guns from the people in order to stop the killing of 20-odd random people by a crazy dude is a good thing, what will you think when the government uses that lack of guns among the people as a means to an end?

    Stalin disarmed the russian people, and then killed over 20 million of them.he wasnt the only one-

    1911 – Turkey disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1915 – 1917 they murdered 1.5 million Armenians.

    1929 – Russia disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1929 – 1953 they murdered 20 million Russians.

    1935 – China disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1948 – 1952 they murdered 20 million Chinese.

    1938 – Germany disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1939 – 1945 they murdered 16 million Jews.

    1956 – Cambodia disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1975 – 1977 they murdered 1 million Educated people.

    1964 – Guatemala disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1964 – 1981 they murdered 100,000 Mayan Indians.

    1970 – Uganda disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1971 – 1979 they murdered 300,000 Christians.

    gun control works- but it only works for the oppressors. once the government is the only entity to have firearms, who or what is there to stop it from enacting any damn thing it wants to? i myself would much rather roll the dice on some retard going crazy in a theater and killing a couple dozen people, and keeping the general population armed- as opposed to not allowing anyone but the government to have firearms, and being able to kill us all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bing! View Post
    the actions of one lunatic will be exploited to reduce the right to bear arms.

    the destruction of thousands of lives dont count for chit in the fight to legalize drugs.

    its hard to debate people with double standards. no winning that debate.
    There's no double standard.

    The government can oppress a drugged society. They can't oppress an armed society.
    Low and slack.

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    I cannot believe you people think another gun owner would of helped in this situation. There was smoke, panic, confusion. You guys act like all CCW folks are all trained for this situation. Not every Tom, Dick and Harry that utilize CCW are competent enough to deal with this. This isn't some action movie where Jason Statham is going to jump out of the 3rd row and take down the bad guy because he can CCW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adim_X View Post
    I cannot believe you people think another gun owner would of helped in this situation. There was smoke, panic, confusion. You guys act like all CCW folks are all trained for this situation. Not every Tom, Dick and Harry that utilize CCW are competent enough to deal with this. This isn't some action movie where Jason Statham is going to jump out of the 3rd row and take down the bad guy because he can CCW.
    some people are well trained though. there were 3 service members there, they probably would have been a huge help had they had a gun.

    the alternative to ccw is to let 10 people die, with 40+ wounded, that was just proven. if you want more proof you can look at things like virgina tech, or any of the other college shootings, or the santa clara shooting a few years. its next to impossible to get a ccw in santa clara county, 6 people were killed before the gunman killed himself.

    any proof that ccw wouldnt have helped?

    heres a story that i like to share with people that think ccw doesnt help
    snopes.com: Gun Shop Robber

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    Imagine this scenario

    The killer entered the theater early and surreptitiously tie-wrapped 5 explosive canisters under seats, say pipe booms with nails inside, one in each corner and the last in the middle of the theater. Each could be activated by cell phone simultaneously. The guy was an honors student in a post graduate science program so it certainly would not be beyond his capabilities. He appeared to rig his apartment in a somewhat similar way as a trap for first responders in fact. What then would CCW holders do in response to that? What would banning guns or large capacity magazines do to prevent this? It seems to me that the issue isn't guns but that we have a person bent on mass destruction.

    His own mother appeared to know what her son was about when she was told of what happened. Barring mental health intervention there's nothing that could have been done. Clamping down on guns will be ineffective on people like this. They will destroy by other means. The profile is of intelligent males that want to destroy, they don't need guns. Gasoline or other commonly available materials will do fine. After that happens are you going to advocate banning gasoline or fertilizer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    The killer entered the theater early and surreptitiously tie-wrapped 5 explosive canisters under seats, say pipe booms with nails inside, one in each corner and the last in the middle of the theater. Each could be activated by cell phone simultaneously. The guy was an honors student in a post graduate science program so it certainly would not be beyond his capabilities. He appeared to rig his apartment in a somewhat similar way as a trap for first responders in fact. What then would CCW holders do in response to that? What would banning guns or large capacity magazines do to prevent this? It seems to me that the issue isn't guns but that we have a person bent on mass destruction.

    His own mother appeared to know what her son was about when she was told of what happened. Barring mental health intervention there's nothing that could have been done. Clamping down on guns will be ineffective on people like this. They will destroy by other means. The profile is of intelligent males that want to destroy, they don't need guns. Gasoline or other commonly available materials will do fine. After that happens are you going to advocate banning gasoline or fertilizer?
    how would a "mental health intervention" stop someone from building bombs like you described, or from obtaining a gun illegally?

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    It probably wouldn't

    Quote Originally Posted by fivefivesix View Post
    how would a "mental health intervention" stop someone from building bombs like you described, or from obtaining a gun illegally?
    Because on what grounds could this guy be subdued to prevent such an act? He was a honors student with no criminal record. Hopefully his family could convince him to get treatment that's about it. The plain fact is that there was little that could be done to prevent this and even less to prevent such occurances in the future. Especially since mental health treatment is given very low priority in the USA. Welcome to the brave new world. Enjoy.

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    Not that anyone asked but when I express my thoughts I try to imagine I'm speaking to the parents of a victim. It really puts the importance of blame and the would haves and could haves into perspective.

    Prayers to the victims and families of this horrible tragedy.

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    From my point of view "gun free zones" = sitting ducks.

    Apparently the shooter forgot it was a gun free zone.
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    Demented Jerks are going to kill / it's not just guns....

    Article on Rampage Killers
    List_of_rampage_killers

    Oceania - (Australia, Philippines, Indonesia, etc) tops the list for the most Number of Incidents.

    People using cars have high body counts.
    Suicide by airplane crash too...

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    There's no evidence yet that the attacker was mentally ill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big terry View Post
    whoever the fcukhead is thay negged me "please keep the politics out of the thread please", i just want to say- eat a dick. nah, strike that- eat a whole bag of dicks.

    you think *i* made it political by stating that i thought it was in poor taste for both obama and romney to jump on this and make points? wait a couple of days and see how political it gets. i aint even pickin sides here, i think they were both dumb sh!ts for getting on the sympathy train and trying to milk it.

    spineless twat, learn to sign your neg rep so i can kick you in the dick in PMs instead of airing it out in the thread.
    Not going to neg you because I mostly agree with you on the true meaning of the second amendment, but what are the politicians supposed to do? If they don't talk about it, then they're called heartless bastards by Fox (Obama) and MSNBC (Romney).
    Worked at Trek/Fisher dealer 2008-2013. Only a little biased.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    There's no evidence yet that the attacker was mentally ill.
    I may be going out on a limb here but in my world any person that kills, was it 12 people and try to kill 50 more is mentally ill. He may not have the classical symptoms of whatever disease but he's mentally ill allright. And should be put to sleep, there is no rehabilitation for that guy.

    Its just the same with that norwegian guy who killed 80, is he mentally ill or not? Some psychiatrists says he's normal and some says he's ill. however even if he is labeled not menatally ill we all know he ****ed up in the head, he's menatally ill otherwise he would not have killed all those people. You have to be seriously ill to even contemplate such an action and even more ill to actually commit it.

    my stance is this: if anyone murder (note not kill in self defence or whatever) any other person, that person is per definition mentally ill, some of the wiring is ****ed up in their heads. No normal person goes around killing people.
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    There is a petition going around on Facebook asking Christain Bale to visit the victims recovering in the hospital. I think that would be awesome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    Edit: I stand corrected. I was told Colorado was not a CCW state. Wrong information.

    I still believe one or two armed citizens in that crowd may have helped end that horrible situation.
    You coward. You absolutely craven scumbag. I don't even know how to express my contempt for you for deleting your original **** up.

    What a wanker.

    wanker

    moron
    Last edited by nuffink; 08-09-2012 at 01:37 PM.

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    Your stance apparently doesn't include facts. A lot of people kill other people and are perfectly justified in their own minds for doing so. The ability to meticulously plan the act for weeks and then carry it out to perfection on such a large scale argues against insanity. He could have just been out for revenge and destruction. There's no need for a rush to judgement until the facts are known anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    my stance is this: if anyone murder (note not kill in self defence or whatever) any other person, that person is per definition mentally ill, some of the wiring is ****ed up in their heads. No normal person goes around killing people.

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    i hope they cut that piece of shits head off with a dull rusty spoon after being drawn and quartered
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    So, you guys still making this a gun law debate? Silliness.

    As far as not "seeing" menal illness, it's obvious you've never been around the mentally ill. It's very clear when somebody becomes sick. Just as somebody who is suspecting their spouse is cheating on them, when it comes to mental illness and you have a gut feeling, you look into it.

    When my brother started getting sick, it was SO obvious. Difference between my family and others is that we sought help immediately. Again, somebody was not paying attention or they were ignoring it.

    We will never fix this problem as long as the talking-head-following sheeple continue to make this a gun issue. It isn't... this is about ignoring the mentally ill.

    Again, considering how many guns are in this country, these incidents are very rare and unfortunate. Gun owners simply just don't go around blasting people. Mentally ill people do, therefore it is a mental illness issue, not a gun issue.

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    I'm not usually a big proponent of the method of hanging, drawing and quartering but in this particular case why the **** not. If this method shuld ever be employed now is the time! For those not familiar with the method, it clocks in at about 1.7 waterboardings. And to be honest its quite fair in this instance, Just go ahead, i'll be quiet. Do your thing.
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    yeah and to the person writing "moron" in the neg reps. hey why don't you have your say here? everybody is welcome. But we all know what could have stopped this (and the last 10-20 shootings). Why dont ya want to say your thing?

    Seriously there are 2 things to consider here, that would have stopped this.

    1: An armed population, bam bam bam perp down.

    And 2: a change of mentality in the general population, and good ****ing luck with that!!

    There are always people that ****s it up for all of us, we learn to live with it. This is such a case.
    And a sorry one it is. But this the price we pay for our freedom, believe it or not, this will happen again.
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    yeah and to the person writing "moron" in the neg reps. hey why don't you have your say here? everybody is welcome. But we all know what could have stopped this (and the last 10-20 shootings). Why dont ya want to say your thing?
    Yeah I got negative rep just for bringing up Christain Bale. Seriously?
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  79. #79
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    I would like to dedicate this song to those that have prematurely died. I don't know what to say really to make things better but I hope you do well whereever you are.



    Torch Song - Shine on Me (Aurora Mix) - YouTube
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

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  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    yeah and to the person writing "moron" in the neg reps. hey why don't you have your say here? everybody is welcome. But we all know what could have stopped this (and the last 10-20 shootings). Why dont ya want to say your thing?

    This the price we pay for our freedom, believe it or not, this will happen again.
    ^^^
    This and to whom ever has 10 points and is neg repping everyone in this thread voice your opinion or at least sign your rep. That might be hard for you to do but, by all means ask your mom if it's okay.

    After waiting for more news to come out. Here are some facts. Up until he withdrew he was fine, maybe a social outcast but fine. Then something happened. Whether or not he has a mental illness or not we won't find out until medical reports come in during the court process.

    Also he purchased 6000 rounds of ammo through the internet. Purchased these items - Pdf : TacticalGear sales receipt for James Holmes On top of this with in those months of something going on in his head he purchased a AR-15 assault rifle, a Remington 12-gauge shotgun and two Glock pistols. The guns were purchased legally over the past several months at two national chains in Colorado. This creates a problem because everything worked in his favor whether or not he had a mental illness or a history of a mental illness that he kept under control until now.

    Which leads us to ask what was his real motive to go to school. In his syllabus that lists him as a student at the medical school shows that he may have taken a class in which he studied topics as diverse as substance abuse, schizophrenia, depression and other disorders.

    While we all know this fvck stick deserves to die, this case is going to raise a tons of questions to two sides whether you want to read or hear about it. 1) Gun laws 2) Mental illness.

    Monday is his first appearance in court. What will his defense be? Possibly insanity but....... for Colorado
    AN act Concerning a restructuring of the not guilty by reason of insanity defense, and, in connection therewith, merging the impaired mental condition defense into the not guilty by reason of insanity defense and eliminating the separate hearing on the insanity defense.

    Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the State of Colorado:





    SECTION 1. 16-8-101, Colorado Revised Statutes, 1986 Repl. Vol., is amended BY THE ADDITION OF A NEW SUBSECTION to read:

    16-8-101. Insanity defined - offenses committed before July 1, 1995. (3) This section shall apply to offenses committed before July 1, 1995.



    SECTION 2. Article 8 of title 16, Colorado Revised Statutes, 1986 Repl. Vol., as amended, is amended BY THE ADDITION OF A NEW SECTION to read:



    16-8-101.5. Insanity defined - offenses committed on and after July 1, 1995. (1) The applicable test of insanity shall be:



    (a) A person who is so diseased or defective in mind at the time of the commission of the act as to be incapable of distinguishing right from wrong with respect to that act is not accountable; except that care should be taken not to confuse such mental disease or defect with moral obliquity, mental depravity, or passion growing out of anger, revenge, hatred, or other motives and kindred evil conditions, for, when the act is induced by any of these causes, the person is accountable to the law; or



    (b) A person who suffered from a condition of mind caused by mental disease or defect that prevented the person from forming a culpable mental state that is an essential element of a crime charged, but care should be taken not to confuse such mental disease or defect with moral obliquity, mental depravity, or passion growing out of anger, revenge, hatred, or other motives and kindred evil conditions because, when the act is induced by any of these causes, the person is accountable to the law.



    (2) As used in subsection (1) of this section:



    (a) "Diseased or defective in mind" does not refer to an abnormality manifested only by repeated criminal or otherwise antisocial conduct.



    (b) "Mental disease or defect" includes only those severely abnormal mental conditions that grossly and demonstrably impair a person's perception or understanding of reality and that are not attributable to the voluntary ingestion of alcohol or any other psychoactive substance but does not include an abnormality manifested only by repeated criminal or otherwise antisocial conduct.



    (3) This section shall apply to offenses committed on or after July 1, 1995.



    SECTION 3. 16-8-102 (2.7), Colorado Revised Statutes, 1986 Repl. Vol., is amended, and the said 16-8-102, as amended, is further amended BY THE ADDITION OF A NEW SUBSECTION, to read:



    16-8-102. Other definitions. As used in this article, unless the context otherwise requires:



    (2.7) (a) "Impaired mental condition" means a condition of mind, caused by mental disease or defect which does not constitute insanity but, nevertheless, that prevents the person from forming a the culpable mental state which that is an essential element of a any crime charged. For the purposes of this subsection (2.7), "mental disease or defect" includes only those severely abnormal mental conditions which grossly and demonstrably impair a person's perception or understanding of reality and which are not attributable to the voluntary ingestion of alcohol or any other psychoactive substance; except that it does not include an abnormality manifested only by repeated criminal or otherwise antisocial conduct.

    What do I think? If anyone has ever seen the movie "Unthinkable" they should throw out all rules for people like this and bring in a Henry Harold 'H' Humphries to get the information out of this a$$hole. From there take his brain out, study it and throw his a$$ away. Even if he had a prior history of mental illness, what he did was pure evil and knew what the hell he was doing.
    Yip yip yip nope nope nope

  81. #81
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    I was in Littleton working on the Columbine story for CNN and I must tell you, the whole town was bummed out. Never seen the likes of something like that, even when I covered tornadoes in Oklahoma.
    The worst was attending a couple of the funerals. Very sad. I volunteered to work on this story this week
    and if I go I will keep you guys posted on the local color on things.

    Prayers to all who were affected.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    So, you guys still making this a gun law debate? Silliness.

    As far as not "seeing" menal illness, it's obvious you've never been around the mentally ill. It's very clear when somebody becomes sick. Just as somebody who is suspecting their spouse is cheating on them, when it comes to mental illness and you have a gut feeling, you look into it.

    When my brother started getting sick, it was SO obvious. Difference between my family and others is that we sought help immediately. Again, somebody was not paying attention or they were ignoring it.

    We will never fix this problem as long as the talking-head-following sheeple continue to make this a gun issue. It isn't... this is about ignoring the mentally ill.

    Again, considering how many guns are in this country, these incidents are very rare and unfortunate. Gun owners simply just don't go around blasting people. Mentally ill people do, therefore it is a mental illness issue, not a gun issue.
    Very true Dion. Guns just facilitated the carnage, but as has been pointed out, the carnage might have taken other forms. There are an increasing number of messed up people out there, and the numbers are getting bigger all the time. There are many factors at play in all this, and there's not enough good sense or space to discuss them rationally here. It's a horrible crime, one of way too many similar crimes.
    It's all Here. Now.

  83. #83
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    So, you guys still making this a mental illness debate? As already posted, we don't know yet if the guy was mentally ill. The weeks or months of meticulous planning and the effective execution of the plan argues against mental illness though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    So, you guys still making this a gun law debate? Silliness.

    As far as not "seeing" menal illness, it's obvious you've never been around the mentally ill. It's very clear when somebody becomes sick. Just as somebody who is suspecting their spouse is cheating on them, when it comes to mental illness and you have a gut feeling, you look into it.

    When my brother started getting sick, it was SO obvious. Difference between my family and others is that we sought help immediately. Again, somebody was not paying attention or they were ignoring it.

    We will never fix this problem as long as the talking-head-following sheeple continue to make this a gun issue. It isn't... this is about ignoring the mentally ill.

    Again, considering how many guns are in this country, these incidents are very rare and unfortunate. Gun owners simply just don't go around blasting people. Mentally ill people do, therefore it is a mental illness issue, not a gun issue.

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    I have always had a hard time understanding someone who
    doesn't know the difference between right and wrong.
    In my opinion if you can't control your actions, nor when they
    get the better of you can't understand there is something wrong and
    get help for it, then it just turns evil.I don't believe this person is mentally ill,
    and I know damn good and well that well be his defense.
    I do believe that there is evil walking among us, all you have to do is turn
    on the T.V. to see it. Call it what you will, debate what you want, I'll
    keep my guns, and wait to see how society is changing, and be
    prepared for it. I do pray for the victims, and the family's, that they find
    peace. And hope this monster finds Hell to his liking.
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  85. #85
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    Let's put this act in perspective for a minute. On the scale of all evil this was a tiny blip. Let's start with the Iraq War which was shown to be purposely started on known false premises. That war caused a waste of nearly a trillion dollars and depending on who you believe between 100,000 and a million or so deaths. Then go down to the Nazis, Stalin, the Armenian genocide, Rwanda, poison gassing of Kurds, the whole history of slavery, the Rape of Nanking, the genocide of American Indians and so on. The list of evil done by people against other people seems nearly endless and it's usually done by states against other states or states against their own people or one tribe against other tribes. Not to minimize the true tragedy here but on the scale of all evil this guy was was acting alone and strictly bush league.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loudviking View Post
    I have always had a hard time understanding someone who
    doesn't know the difference between right and wrong.
    In my opinion if you can't control your actions, nor when they
    get the better of you can't understand there is something wrong and
    get help for it, then it just turns evil.I don't believe this person is mentally ill,
    and I know damn good and well that well be his defense.
    I do believe that there is evil walking among us, all you have to do is turn
    on the T.V. to see it. Call it what you will, debate what you want, I'll
    keep my guns, and wait to see how society is changing, and be
    prepared for it. I do pray for the victims, and the family's, that they find
    peace. And hope this monster finds Hell to his liking.

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    Understand your thoughts, but evil is evil,
    be it one or millions. If he had the resources, do you
    think he would have stopped at shooting 50, or did he accomplish what he set out to do?
    I see it as evil, because he intended on getting caught, and enjoying
    his moment of fame, he could have continued through the whole theater, got
    into a gun battle with police, but he may not have lived to see the results of his actions.
    He used people he didn't know ,nor care about, to be noticed in the World.
    How evil is that?
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    [QUOTE=big terry;9519721]because in general it is not the populace we need to defend ourselves against, it is the government. and if the government can arm troops with 100-round magazines, why shouldnt the people be able to defend themselves against such possible oppression with the exact same armament?


    I'm a gun owner but believe the above logic even if well intentioned is downright silly. By your logic you'd have grenade launchers and a tank in your basement. Likewise the facts your using to support your argument, i.e. there is a correlation between the holocaust and gun control is way out there and not supported by historical fact.

    Just saying

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    [QUOTE=Dion As I stated before, guns have less to do with incidents like this than mental illness issues. Considering how many guns per capita in the US, it's a miracle that things like this don't happen more often. That miracle is called "sanity".

    You see, most gun owners don't go around blasting people. We just don't.

    "The kid at Virginia Tech... the parents KNEW he had problems, but did NOTHING about it - simply because the Asian culture doesn't deal with those things. They swept it under the rug. "



    Man you are a blowhard. Could you be any more anecdotal? So now the entire Asian race sweeps things under the rug?
    Last edited by 890th; 07-22-2012 at 09:29 AM.

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    [QUOTE=890th;9522505]
    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    As I stated before, guns have less to do with incidents like this than mental illness issues. Considering how many guns per capita in the US, it's a miracle that things like this don't happen more often. That miracle is called "sanity".

    You see, most gun owners don't go around blasting people. We just don't.

    The kid at Virginia Tech... the parents KNEW he had problems, but did NOTHING about it - simply because the Asian culture doesn't deal with those things. They swept it under the rug.



    Man you are a blowhard. Could you be any more anecdotal? So now the entire Asian race sweeps things under the rug?

    I actually believe in right to bear as well as reasonable controls. That said, I'd feel safer if you weren't carrying. Very recently a wingnut with similar paranoid thinking killed himself in a bunker out west. I'm hoping you don't have a shovel.
    Yes. I'm Asian, and I know my culture.

    WE sweep a lot of things under the rug - notice the suicide rates in Japan? How is my thinking paranoid? I perplexed of how you your thinking twisted it into paranoia? Not once have I brought up CCW, carrying, pro/anti guns... Bunker? How the fcuk did you come up with that from my statement. Are you forgetting your meds today?

    There are a lot of problems with many ethnic groups. Unfortunately, many are in denial about cultural faults. Why is it that some communities shoot and kill each other more than others? Why is it that some ethnic communities have more children out of wedlock? Why do some ethnic communities thrive and others don't? And why do some communities ignore mental illness when it's a serious, serious problem?

    So are you saying that we shouldn't bring these things to light? Will the Asian community - MY COMMUNITY - ever see that some things should not be ignored? If that is your philosophy, then that is a twisted one.

    My Dad saw faults in our culture many, many years ago and taught us differently. I personally met with somebody who was Vietnamese and we were talking about life insurance. When I asked him why he didn't think he needed any, he said, "Vietnamese culture... we don't believe in that..." Not meaning to change the direction of this thread, but this is a perfect example of how ridiculous justification of action based on faulty community morals affects others. Now the guy has cancer. When he passes away, his family will have nothing.

    Shame on those who refuse to seek help based on pride and idealistic beliefs.

    In my very close and personal experience with my brother, I witnessed that the services offered to the mentally ill are substandard. Ignored. Swept away. It is sad for this afflicted with it, and it is sad when people are victims to those who are not treated.

    Again... you are missing the point when we don't see this as an issue of mental illness. It is. It needs to be addressed - not gun laws, not magazine capacity... that's all politics. Every time something like this happens, there's never a serious discussion about it - just more gun talk.

  90. #90
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    i want to believe if he was mentally ill he would have been shot dead multiple times by the several police officers how arrested him at his car, all he had to do was flinch. he knew what he was doing. as far as if someone had a concealed weapons permit / was carrying, it was a dark confined theater and probably not much room between seats with loud sound affects, low lighting and flashing lighting from the movie giving a sort of strobe light effect. add in the chaos of people trying to get out and duck for cover it would have been extremely difficult to hit the suspect who as wearing full battle rattle. and he didn't just walk in and start firing, sounds like he waited for the first action scene to begin his rain of terror. not to mention his apartment being wired up to blow and burn. all the defense has is an insanity plea and from what others say, it won't hold...... and even they know he did it

    " Grandpappy told my pappy, back in my day, son
    A man had to answer for the wicked that he done
    Take all the rope in Texas
    Find a tall oak tree, round up all of them bad boys
    Hang them high in the street for all the people to see........It's time the long arm of the law put a few more in the ground
    Send 'em all to their maker and he'll settle 'em down..."
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    So, you guys still making this a mental illness debate? As already posted, we don't know yet if the guy was mentally ill. The weeks or months of meticulous planning and the effective execution of the plan argues against mental illness though.
    Do you have experience with mental illness? Mental illness doesn't mean drooling in a corner and staring at mylar balloons. When my brother was sick, he drove his car 80 miles north to San Francisco, dropped off his cat, and left him there, simply because the cat was "telling" him he needed to captain a boat to Egypt.

    Calculated, thought out, but very ill.

    Do you think Jeffery Dahmer was mentally ill? He calculated his hunting of young gay men, seduced them into his apartment, killed them, chopped them up and ate them. That's not mentally ill? What do you think mental illness is?

    Mental illness is a broken mind - it doesn't mean they're retarded. The mentally ill can calculate killings, commit arson, chop up people and eat them, or any of the horrific things sick people do. They can also plan to commit suicide or do harm to themselves.

    Depression is a mental illness. Do you think murder-suicides are coming from people who are "well"?
    Last edited by Dion; 07-22-2012 at 09:39 AM.

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    Dion, I see where you are coming from, and I must say my heart goes out to you
    for the loss of your brother.

    My problem with this situation is, he had self preservation in mind when he planned
    and executed this, I feel that if he would have continued shooting, then shot at Police
    without hesitation and been killed, then he was truly ill, as he had no self preservation
    in mind, he just went nut's. But it looks to me like this guy had planned to give himself up.
    And that to me seems like something a sane, and evil, person would do.
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  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loudviking View Post
    Understand your thoughts, but evil is evil,
    be it one or millions. If he had the resources, do you
    think he would have stopped at shooting 50, or did he accomplish what he set out to do?
    I see it as evil, because he intended on getting caught, and enjoying
    his moment of fame, he could have continued through the whole theater, got
    into a gun battle with police, but he may not have lived to see the results of his actions.
    He used people he didn't know ,nor care about, to be noticed in the World.
    How evil is that?
    It could have been worse. News reports are saying his rifle jammed.

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    He had more ammo with him to.
    Maybe walking out too reload, Cop's are there, he figures
    " Screw it, I'm famous now", and gives up.
    If he had balls, he would have pointed his jammed rifle at the Cop's.
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    Mental illness does not mean automatic insanity defense. As far as I'm concerned, sociopathy is mental illness, but it is not a legal insanity defense. According to the laws posted above, it is explicitly excluded from being used as an insanity defense.

    But there is still something very wrong in a sociopath's head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NateHawk View Post
    Mental illness does not mean automatic insanity defense. As far as I'm concerned, sociopathy is mental illness, but it is not a legal insanity defense. According to the laws posted above, it is explicitly excluded from being used as an insanity defense.

    But there is still something very wrong in a sociopath's head.
    Some of the most successful CEO's and others on the Corporate Ladder are bona fide sociopaths. Not to mention many of our political leaders and strategists.

    In a true, unfettered, free market society, sociopaths ROCK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Raton View Post
    Some of the most successful CEO's and others on the Corporate Ladder are bona fide sociopaths. Not to mention many of our political leaders and strategists.

    In a true, unfettered, free market society, sociopaths ROCK.
    Wtf are u talking about? I would like you to apa cite this craziness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Raton View Post
    Some of the most successful CEO's and others on the Corporate Ladder are bona fide sociopaths. Not to mention many of our political leaders and strategists.

    In a true, unfettered, free market society, sociopaths ROCK.
    so?

    a lot of successful people have a variety of mental illnesses.

    a mental illness does not have to ruin you. but for many, that's exactly what happens because treatment of them is crap and they get ignored or swept under the rug as Dion put it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adim_X View Post
    Wtf are u talking about? I would like you to apa cite this craziness.
    If you tell me what "apa cite" means in normal English, maybe I can comply with your request.
    What I stated in the post above has plenty of info, research, and evidence to back it up. It an't simple speculation. Look it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NateHawk View Post
    so?

    a lot of successful people have a variety of mental illnesses.

    a mental illness does not have to ruin you. but for many, that's exactly what happens because treatment of them is crap and they get ignored or swept under the rug as Dion put it.
    So your'e not cool with the sociopath who burglarizes your house., but the one who rips off your investment portfolio, you know, like the sociopath who MADE-OFF with so many people's retirement funds, is somehow better, as long as they don't get caught.?

    Is "whoever dies with the most toys" a rule to live by? Not for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Raton View Post
    If you tell me what "apa cite" means in normal English, maybe I can comply with your request.
    What I stated in the post above has plenty of info, research, and evidence to back it up. It an't simple speculation. Look it up.
    APA Citation Style | Cornell University Library

    So your'e not cool with the sociopath who burglarizes your house., but the one who rips off your investment portfolio, you know, like the sociopath who MADE-OFF with so many people's retirement funds, is somehow better, as long as they don't get caught.?

    Is "whoever dies with the most toys" a rule to live by? Not for me.
    WTF?

  102. #102
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    What "Psychopath" Means It is not quite what you may think

    First described systematically by Medical College of Georgia psychiatrist Hervey M. Cleckley in 1941, psychopathy consists of a specific set of personality traits and behaviors. Superficially charming, psychopaths tend to make a good first impression on others and often strike observers as remarkably normal. Yet they are self-centered, dishonest and undependable, and at times they engage in irresponsible behavior for no apparent reason other than the sheer fun of it. Largely devoid of guilt, empathy and love, they have casual and callous interpersonal and romantic relationships. Psychopaths routinely offer excuses for their reckless and often outrageous actions, placing blame on others instead. They rarely learn from their mistakes or benefit from negative feedback, and they have difficulty inhibiting their impulses.

    Not surprisingly, psychopaths are overrepresented in prisons; studies indicate that about 25 percent of inmates meet diagnostic criteria for psychopathy. Nevertheless, research also suggests that a sizable number of psychopaths may be walking among us in everyday life. Some investigators have even speculated that “successful psychopaths”—those who attain prominent positions in society—may be overrepresented in certain occupations, such as politics, business and entertainment. Yet the scientific evidence for this intriguing conjecture is preliminary.

    What "Psychopath" Means: Scientific American

    Quote Originally Posted by Adim_X View Post
    Wtf are u talking about? I would like you to apa cite this craziness.

  103. #103
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    Yes I do. In people close to me. My point was this guy may have just been isolated, unable to prosper as he wished and p*ssed off and seeking revenge against a cruel world for the fun of it. Many experts on mass shootings have pretty much said the same thing, that's largely the profile of mass shooters. In fact the idea that so many people are jumping to the conclusion he was mentally ill do mentally ill people a disservice. The mentally ill are no more likely to be violent than anyone else. You or I don't have enough facts to make the assumption that he was mentally ill or not yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Do you have experience with mental illness? Mental illness doesn't mean drooling in a corner and staring at mylar balloons. When my brother was sick, he drove his car 80 miles north to San Francisco, dropped off his cat, and left him there, simply because the cat was "telling" him he needed to captain a boat to Egypt.

    Calculated, thought out, but very ill.

    Do you think Jeffery Dahmer was mentally ill? He calculated his hunting of young gay men, seduced them into his apartment, killed them, chopped them up and ate them. That's not mentally ill? What do you think mental illness is?

    Mental illness is a broken mind - it doesn't mean they're retarded. The mentally ill can calculate killings, commit arson, chop up people and eat them, or any of the horrific things sick people do. They can also plan to commit suicide or do harm to themselves.

    Depression is a mental illness. Do you think murder-suicides are coming from people who are "well"?

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    Regardless of what the Medical Profession wants to call it,
    I still call it evil.
    And for the little recluse that leaves me wonderful messages, what
    the hell does "w/e" mean?
    If I am going to laugh, would at least like to know what it stands for?
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    w/e is newfangled internet/texting slang for the impatient... it means "whatever".
    If you arent bleeding, you arent riding hard enough.
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    POS movie, IDC about the incident, Its in America, Every day there are mass murders, W-G-A-F?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wasmachineman NL View Post
    POS movie, IDC about the incident, Its in America, Every day there are mass murders, W-G-A-F?
    What a dumb comment.
    Talk about sociopathy.

    Lives senselessly lost, and your brilliant brain blurts out "W-G-A-F"?
    Take a bow moron.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    First described systematically by Medical College of Georgia psychiatrist Hervey M. Cleckley in 1941, psychopathy consists of a specific set of personality traits and behaviors. Superficially charming, psychopaths tend to make a good first impression on others and often strike observers as remarkably normal. Yet they are self-centered, dishonest and undependable, and at times they engage in irresponsible behavior for no apparent reason other than the sheer fun of it. Largely devoid of guilt, empathy and love, they have casual and callous interpersonal and romantic relationships. Psychopaths routinely offer excuses for their reckless and often outrageous actions, placing blame on others instead. They rarely learn from their mistakes or benefit from negative feedback, and they have difficulty inhibiting their impulses.

    Not surprisingly, psychopaths are overrepresented in prisons; studies indicate that about 25 percent of inmates meet diagnostic criteria for psychopathy. Nevertheless, research also suggests that a sizable number of psychopaths may be walking among us in everyday life. Some investigators have even speculated that “successful psychopaths”—those who attain prominent positions in society—may be overrepresented in certain occupations, such as politics, business and entertainment. Yet the scientific evidence for this intriguing conjecture is preliminary.

    What "Psychopath" Means: Scientific American


    According to that definition, my brother in law is a psychopath. Nothing I didn't know already.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wasmachineman NL View Post
    POS movie, IDC about the incident, Its in America, Every day there are mass murders, W-G-A-F?
    wgaf? you're not just keeping this gem for this forum are you or are you eluding to indifference for all, maybe? you must be a badass.

  110. #110
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    This is what I said, read it:

    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    The mentally ill are no more likely to be violent than anyone else.
    Not completely true my friend.
    I speak from an educated and experienced platform; most mental illnesses do not increase the risk of violence.
    However, there are many different mental illnesses.
    Some of the forms of mental illnesses are highly likely to commit violence; it's almost a guarantee that at some point they will.

    Rather than TSA and other forms of ‘pretend’ violence prevention, I believe we should take up the same practices like a few other countries have been doing for decades.
    They regularly give cat scans and mri of the brain of all people in the population.
    It's a scheduled checkup routine.
    Nearly every form of mental illness can be linked to a physical defect in the brain, sometimes these defects change over time for the worse and for the better. The body sometimes heals itself and sometimes the condition worsens.

    The point is that these are very reliable ways to circumvent the detrition of a person from a mental illness and also makes preventing an act of violence achievable without the need for profiling or invading privacy or creating long lines at the airport or anywhere.
    Last edited by Trail_Blazer; 07-23-2012 at 01:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    Not completely true my friend.
    I speak from an educated and experienced platform; most mental illnesses do not increase the risk of violence.
    However, there are many different mental illnesses.
    Some of the forms of mental illnesses are highly likely to commit violence; it's almost a guarantee that at some point they will.

    Rather than TSA and other forms of ‘pretend’ violence prevention, I believe we should take up the same practices like a few other countries have been doing for decades.
    They regularly give cat scans and mri of the brain of all people in the population.
    It's a scheduled checkup routine
    .
    Nearly every form of mental illness can be linked to a physical defect in the brain, sometimes these defects change over time for the worse and for the better. The body sometimes heals itself and sometimes the condition worsens.

    The point is that these are very reliable ways to circumvent the detrition of a person from a mental illness and also makes preventing an act of violence achievable without the need for profiling or invading privacy or creating long lines at the airport or anywhere.
    what countries do this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    what countries do this?
    You can contact your local NAMI group for more information.
    NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness - Mental Health Support, Education and Advocacy

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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    You can contact your local NAMI group for more information.
    NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness - Mental Health Support, Education and Advocacy
    that link means nothing.

    what countries regularly schedule brain scans of their population?
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  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    that link means nothing.

    what countries regularly schedule brain scans of their population?




    Exactly none, zero, zilch, nada. Tinfoil hat, black helicopter conspiracy theory sh!t. We will return to to reality now.

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Exactly none, zero, zilch, nada. Tinfoil hat, black helicopter conspiracy theory sh!t. We will return to to reality now.
    WoW, you dont know something so you assume no one can know about it?
    I'm not sure why you want to call out something you obviously don't know about.
    I linked NAMI because they educated me in several classes about this subject and they can educate you too if you want to be.
    NAMI are more in the know than 90% of the US doctor's about what the rest of the world does to treat and prevent Mental Illness.
    They do not make their educational information public for a good reason and I support their philosophy.
    If you want to learn about the question you asked me then call NAMI and ask them, and show them support instead of flaming me.

  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    WoW, you dont know something so you assume no one can know about it?
    I'm not sure why you want to call out something you obviously don't know about.



    Prove your assertion or go away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Prove your assertion or go away.
    I certainly do not owe you anything, even proof that my opinion is right.

    I linked NAMI because they educated me in several classes about this subject and they can educate you too if you want to be.
    NAMI are more in the know than 90% of the US doctor's about what the rest of the world does to treat and prevent Mental Illness.
    They do not make their educational information public for a good reason and I support their philosophy.
    If you want to learn about the question you asked me then call NAMI and ask them, and show them support instead of flaming me.

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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    I certainly do not owe you anything, even proof that my opinion is right.

    I linked NAMI because they educated me in several classes about this subject and they can educate you too if you want to be.
    NAMI are more in the know than 90% of the US doctor's about what the rest of the world does to treat and prevent Mental Illness.
    They do not make their educational information public for a good reason and I support their philosophy.
    If you want to learn about the question you asked me then call NAMI and ask them, and show them support instead of flaming me.




    Great job on supporting your batsh it crazy claims.

  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    I certainly do not owe you anything, even proof that my opinion is right.

    I linked NAMI because they educated me in several classes about this subject and they can educate you too if you want to be.
    NAMI are more in the know than 90% of the US doctor's about what the rest of the world does to treat and prevent Mental Illness.
    They do not make their educational information public for a good reason and I support their philosophy.
    If you want to learn about the question you asked me then call NAMI and ask them, and show them support instead of flaming me.


    You attempt to pass off opinion as fact.

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    everyone has some mental disorder or another.

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    You all can try to bring me down for not spoon feeding you but your hate mongering won't make a dent in me.
    lol
    Try reading more instead of flaming more, you will find the answers if you actually look for them.

    Google Hints " Brain Scan Imaging Mental Illness PET CT MRI"

    Maybe if you are lucky you will find something, but the REAL information is published regularly in medical journals around the world. However none of them are free.
    Even NAMI isn't free.
    The quality of advice and opinion is often related to the cost of obtaining the information.
    Just because I'm refusing free education to you does not make my opinion worth less, quite the opposite.

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    I certainly do not owe you anything, even proof that my opinion is right.

    I linked NAMI because they educated me in several classes about this subject and they can educate you too if you want to be.
    NAMI are more in the know than 90% of the US doctor's about what the rest of the world does to treat and prevent Mental Illness.
    They do not make their educational information public for a good reason and I support their philosophy.
    If you want to learn about the question you asked me then call NAMI and ask them, and show them support instead of flaming me.
    Ok, but what countries rountinely require the tests you mentioned in your prior post? You apparently know who they are and asserted it as fact. Which countries do this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tystevens View Post
    Ok, but what countries routinely require the tests you mentioned in your prior post? You apparently know who they are and asserted it as fact. Which countries do this?
    If it was true; and it is...
    I thought that you would all have better things to discuss than just the regional location.
    Think about the impacts of preventative medicine that actually works.
    Discuss that instead of me.

    There is a wealth of evidence that brain scans do reveal defects that are known to cause severe mental illness and the fact is that they are NOT are widely used in the US to detect or even after a doctor makes a diagnosis and begins a treatment plan.
    However this trend is changing as funding has increased to preform mass studies in the US; which mimic what's been done for over 30 years in some countries.

    The US was very very late to this trend and there is an increase but it is not often used yet, due to the costs of a brain scan in the US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    If it were true; and it is...
    then you should be able to provide the name of a single country that does so. asking for proof is part of a normal conversation. it doesnt matter which country it is. but im not aware of any country that schedules mris or ctscans for anything other than immediate diagnostic needs.

  125. #125
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    Read this if you want to know more information that actually matters:

    The Clinical Experience and Potential of Brain Imaging in Patients with Mental Illness

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    Ok here's one for you. How about the fact that the majority of the terrorist acts (notice I didn't say all, I said majority) such as the WTC/Pentagon weren't committed by US citizens. So CAT scans of US citizens isn't going to ward off much of anything.

    Also, if you do a CAT scan and tell me I show signs of a possible mental instability based on that test and you are either going to watch me or inprison/commit me for it, you're going to do it over my dead cold body. And if you think the quality of the healthcare system sucks now, wait till we have to collectively pay for cat scans for the entire population.


    The fact that you refuse to back up your opnion automatically writes it off as nothing but hogwash propoganda.

    As far as the preventative medicine, have you personally know anyone to take these drugs? My father in law as well as a handful of other family members have been prescribed things such as Paxil and other antidepressent/stimulant drugs. The results of that? My father in law tried to kill himself. He had shown no signs of any mental illness other than depression (which is normal when your wife leaves you for your so called best friend) before that. Then guess what? He got off the meds, went to counciling for his depression and returned to normal within a few short months.

    Your opinion has zero validity and your refusal to provide validity proves as much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    Read this if you want to know more information that actually matters:

    The Clinical Experience and Potential of Brain Imaging in Patients with Mental Illness
    "MRI is rarely used in clinical psychiatric practice, with a lack of current evidence that it is cost effective in improving diagnosis. " from that article,

    we're not debating whether or not its a usefull diagnostic tool. you said there were countries mandating citizens get mri's on a scheduled basis. and we're asking for any proof of that assertion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    Read this if you want to know more information that actually matters:

    The Clinical Experience and Potential of Brain Imaging in Patients with Mental Illness
    That article is full of good knowledge and all...but it doesnt address your topic of countries administering scans to the masses. So therefor.....your opinion still has no validity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    If it was true; and it is...
    I thought that you would all have better things to discuss than just the regional location.
    Think about the impacts of preventative medicine that actually works.
    Discuss that instead of me.
    You keep deflecting. Are there actually countries who administer routine CAT scans and mental health exams to their constituents? Who are they?
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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    Read this if you want to know more information that actually matters:

    The Clinical Experience and Potential of Brain Imaging in Patients with Mental Illness
    IDK what is even being argued about anymore. Does any of this matter? speaking of what matters... now where did I put my beer....
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    By the way, someone earlier mentioned something about playing metal detectors/screeners at the entrance to the movie theater. That wouldnt have helped anything in this instance because he snuck in the emergency exit door.
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    Sweden you idiots!

    They are not forced to get brain or any body scans but it is widely used for prevention and detection of mental illness and also breast cancer etc.
    The point is just that the US cost so much to use a imaging device that it's rarely used for anything, even when it should be.

    Here's a link to just one of their many many studies Sweden has been doing since the 70's
    BBC News | HEALTH | Scans may 'cause brain changes'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guerdonian View Post
    IDK what is even being argued about anymore. Does any of this matter? speaking of what matters... now where did I put my beer....
    i think were at the point where we start wondering how many more would have died if he was a physics/chemistry major.

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    I suppose you all who are flaming me represent the reason I think more brain scans should be done in the US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    Sweden you idiots!

    Here's a link to just one of their many many studies they have been doing since the 70's
    BBC News | HEALTH | Scans may 'cause brain changes'
    Again. That article relates the suspicion that ultrasound scans may cause a percentage of brain damage later in life. Nothing in the entire article about adminsering the test to the masses. In fact, it clearly states "A total of 7,000 men were studied whose mothers had scans in the 1970s and compared with 172,000 men whose mothers had not had scans." Surely you know there is more than 7,000 men in Sweden. That right there means that the entire population was not tested.


    You are not being criticized for your opinion. You are being criticized for spouting your opinion as fact without being reasonable enough to back it up with factual evidence. I motion that your opinion is here on out pronounced null and void.
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  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    Sweden you idiots!

    Here's a link to just one of their many many studies they have been doing since the 70's
    BBC News | HEALTH | Scans may 'cause brain changes'
    um ultrasounds arent mri's or ct scans and nowhere does it state anyone is forced to get one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    I suppose you all who are flaming me represent the reason I think more brain scans should be done in the US.
    So my willingness to debate a topic in an adult manner without name calling or general rudeness is evidence that I have some kind of mental instability/brain damage? I am now going to resort to name calling and call you ignorant and judgemental.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    Sweden you idiots!

    They are not forced to get brain or any body scans but it is widely used for prevention and detection of mental illness and also breast cancer etc.
    The point is just that the US cost so much to use a imaging device that it's rarely used for anything, even when it should be.

    Here's a link to just one of their many many studies Sweden has been doing since the 70's
    BBC News | HEALTH | Scans may 'cause brain changes'
    reading comprehension FAIL. that article is about ultrasound imaging of unborn babies in the womb. and it does not say what you think it does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    I suppose you all who are flaming me represent the reason I think more brain scans should be done in the US.

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    I gave links to articles on the internet that show the trend and that it's been done in Sweden for many decades now. That one study was just a 7000 sample.
    They started doing mass studies of even 20,000 people per study and so on decades ago.
    To compare that to the US studies, there are only just now studies using imaging with more than a few hundred subjects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    I gave links to articles on the internet that show the trend and that it's been done in Sweden for many decades now. That one study was just a 7000 sample.
    They started doing mass studies of even 20,000 people per study and so on decades ago.
    To compare that to the US studies, there are only just now studies using imaging with more than a few hundred subjects.
    and what part of mass study equates to mandatory testing?

    allow me to repeat your assertion "They regularly give cat scans and mri of the brain of all people in the population."

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    Please do call me names and degrade me publicly it will definitely increase your Reputations to deface me. Please bring it on, you have nothing better to do.

    You all spend so much energy stomping your foot and demand I become your educator.
    Try seeking education from professionals rather then internet forums.

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    Your original statement was that there are countries that administer scans to the mass population, aka everybody. You have provided 0 links to anything even coming to close to possibly resembling that statement. Now you are backtracking and saying that studies involving larger testing groups are becoming more common in certain countries. Countries like Sweden have always been forerunners for technologies like medicine, so thats a perfectly feasable idea. However, thats is not at all what you were originally saying. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read your mindless dribble. Nothing you said came even close to being correct. I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slozomby View Post
    and what part of mass study equates to mandatory testing?

    allow me to repeat your assertion "They regularly give cat scans and mri of the brain of all people in the population."

    I never said mandatory or required testing. Never ever ever ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    I gave links to articles on the internet that show the trend and that it's been done in Sweden for many decades now. That one study was just a 7000 sample.
    They started doing mass studies of even 20,000 people per study and so on decades ago.
    To compare that to the US studies, there are only just now studies using imaging with more than a few hundred subjects.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slozomby View Post
    and what part of mass study equates to mandatory testing?



    Of the populace of entire countries as you stated in the original claim? Please cite one credible source to substantiate that claim.

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    You all keep saying that I wrote something I did not.
    You all seem to be letting your emotions run away with you.
    I said from the start that I was not going to answer every question you all want to ask me.
    I gave you all a resource called NAMI who CAN and WILL answer all your questions!

    I am not your educator, grow up and get your own dam info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    Please do call me names and degrade me publicly it will definitely increase your Reputations to deface me. Please bring it on, you have nothing better to do.

    You all spend so much energy stomping your foot and demand I become your educator.
    Try seeking education from professionals rather then internet forums.
    Any adult providing an opinion in a public forum, especially when presenting that opinion as fact, should be able to provide factual evidence to back it up. If you had shown any kind of evidence backing up your statement we wouldn't be here now.


    Disclaimer: I use the true definition of "public forum" not a forum as in an internet message board. I'd be saying the same thing if we were in a meeting room discussing the same topic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    I suppose you all who are flaming me represent the reason I think more brain scans should be done in the US.
    Yeah, when someone comes into a thread and makes a fairly outrageous claim purporting to foster a serious conversation, others simply ask him/her to support the claim, and he/she takes offense to the request, can't or wont support it, and alludes to the mental stability of those questioning the unsupported facts.

    It is those people who seem to have something wrong with their brains, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    This is what I said, read it:



    Not completely true my friend.
    I speak from an educated and experienced platform; most mental illnesses do not increase the risk of violence.
    However, there are many different mental illnesses.
    Some of the forms of mental illnesses are highly likely to commit violence; it's almost a guarantee that at some point they will.

    Rather than TSA and other forms of ‘pretend’ violence prevention, I believe we should take up the same practices like a few other countries have been doing for decades.
    They regularly give cat scans and mri of the brain of all people in the population.
    It's a scheduled checkup routine.
    Nearly every form of mental illness can be linked to a physical defect in the brain, sometimes these defects change over time for the worse and for the better. The body sometimes heals itself and sometimes the condition worsens.

    The point is that these are very reliable ways to circumvent the detrition of a person from a mental illness and also makes preventing an act of violence achievable without the need for profiling or invading privacy or creating long lines at the airport or anywhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    You all keep saying that I wrote something I did not.
    You all seem to be letting your emotions run away with you.
    I said from the start that I was not going to answer every question you all want to ask me.
    I gave you all a resource called NAMI who CAN and WILL answer all your questions!

    I am not your educator, grow up and get your own dam info.
    Please explain this then, my damaged brain cannot comprehend your higher level of thinking.
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    This comment, please qualify it.


    Originally Posted by schristie11
    I believe we should take up the same practices like a few other countries have been doing for decades.
    They regularly give cat scans and mri of the brain of all people in the population.
    It's a scheduled checkup routine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    You all keep saying that I wrote something I did not.
    You all seem to be letting your emotions run away with you.
    I said from the start that I was not going to answer every question you all want to ask me.
    I gave you all a resource called NAMI who CAN and WILL answer all your questions!

    I am not your educator, grow up and get your own dam info.
    make a claim and be prepared to cite your source (don't tell us to call someone else and ask them the questions. that is deflecting). you must be new to the internet.

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    This is what I said, read it again:

    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post

    Rather than TSA and other forms of ‘pretend’ violence prevention, I believe we should take up the same practices like a few other countries have been doing for decades.
    They regularly give cat scans and mri of the brain of all people in the population.
    It's more like a scheduled checkup routine.
    Nearly every form of mental illness can be linked to a physical defect in the brain, sometimes these defects change over time for the worse and for the better. The body sometimes heals itself and sometimes the condition worsens.

    The point is that these are very reliable ways to circumvent the detrition of a person from a mental illness and also makes preventing an act of violence achievable without the need for profiling or invading privacy or creating long lines at the airport or anywhere.
    Perhaps I should have said that MOST instead of ALL people there get scans.
    Regardless, you all should really calm down, stop putting me or anyone on trial with all the nastiness.
    Just chill people.

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    Oh and also, the TSA screening stops are not there to decide whos mentally stable or unstable. They are there to figure out whos hiding a bomb in their luggage or underwear. Totally different spectrum of events. Since people have tried to hide bombs in luggage items and on their person, its a needed evil. Ever heard the saying "One bad egg ruins it for the rest of us.". That's where this country is at now. We have to take precautions with the good due to the actions of the bad.
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  154. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    This is what I said, read it again:



    Perhaps I should have said that MOST instead of ALL people there get scans.
    Regardless, you all should really calm down, stop putting me or anyone on trial with all the nastiness.
    Just chill people.
    The changing of that word changes the entire meaning of that statement, its called the english language and it's a great thing when used correctly.


    Helping Jack off a horse. Helping jack off a horse. Two totally different things with the only difference being the capital letter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSlow35th View Post
    Oh and also, the TSA screening stops are not there to decide whos mentally stable or unstable. They are there to figure out whos hiding a bomb in their luggage or underwear. Totally different spectrum of events. Since people have tried to hide bombs in luggage items and on their person, its a needed evil. Ever heard the saying "One bad egg ruins it for the rest of us.". That's where this country is at now. We have to take precautions with the good due to the actions of the bad.
    The TSA efforts are still just pretend security, in my opinion they do not stop more hijackers then medal deters and an attentive security force have in the past.

  156. #156
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    For those not up to speed here is a re-enactment of what just took place:

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    TSA is the attentive security force. The only things that have REALLY changed is that it is a government agency and the security measures are more strict. With the invention and refinement of more composite materials that metal detectors cannot screen for we are forced to use more thorough methods. Once again you have voiced your opinion, is there a study relavent to your case? Perhaps suggesting that the new security checkpoints are no more effective then the ones of old?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSlow35th View Post
    Once again you have voiced your opinion, is there a study relavent to your case? Perhaps suggesting that the new security checkpoints are no more effective then the ones of old?
    Once again, I'm not your educator, and this time I stated a non-fact opinion so the burden of proof is irreverent to whether I can form that opinion or not.

    I do not like mustard either.
    Now you will ask me to prove that too?

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    No, I was just curious if you had learned the difference between a personal opinion and a opinion stated as fact. And it appears that you have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    The TSA efforts are still just pretend security, in my opinion they do not stop more hijackers then medal deters and an attentive security force have in the past.
    i'll help out here:

    "But congressional auditors have questions about other efficiencies as well, like having 3,000 "behavior detection" officers assigned to question passengers. The officers sidetracked 50,000 passengers in 2010, resulting in the arrests of 300 passengers, the GAO found. None turned out to be terrorists.
    Yet in the same year, behavior detection teams apparently let at least 16 individuals allegedly involved in six subsequent terror plots slip through eight different airports. GAO said the individuals moved through protected airports on at least 23 different occasions."

    from the GAO.

    http://www.gao.gov/assets/130/126592.pdf

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    Here’s my problem, I can not give you an easy link to an internet site that describes what I was trying to say.
    The reason is because this type of thing is not usually available on the internet free.
    I learned it in class.

    I paid to go to a class taught by a panel of educators at the same time to ensure accuracy and provide a greater wealth to relate our questions to their experience.
    They provided me with books and materials however I it would be illegal for me to republish them on the internet to share with you.
    Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, are taught things every day that are not written on the internet yet.
    So chill out and don’t start an argument about it, just leave my opinion out of your thoughts and ignore it, if you don’t agree with it.

    For example in the NAMI classes; they tell you on day one that many of the opinions they have are not widely popular because most people and most doctors have never been exposed to the educational material that NAMI has assembled from international sources.
    Most of the information US Doctors and the US public know about is based on the practice of medicine in the US.
    However, when you include the information of nearly every country in the world with the US then there have are many new ideas about how things work and the best way to treat them.

  162. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    This is what I said, read it again:



    Perhaps I should have said that MOST instead of ALL people there get scans.
    Regardless, you all should really calm down, stop putting me or anyone on trial with all the nastiness.
    Just chill people.
    If "most" is accurate and "all" is not, then indeed, you should have said 'most.'

    Although, I'm not sure there is any evidence to suggest that "they," meaning Sweden, administer scans to 'most' people in the population, either. But anyway ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    Here’s my problem, I can not give you an easy link to an internet site that describes what I was trying to say.
    The reason is because this type of thing is not usually available on the internet free.
    I learned it in class.

    I paid to go to a class taught by a panel of educators at the same time to ensure accuracy and provide a greater wealth to relate our questions to their experience.
    They provided me with books and materials however I it would be illegal for me to republish them on the internet to share with you.
    Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, are taught things every day that are not written on the internet yet.
    So chill out and don’t start an argument about it, just leave my opinion out of your thoughts and ignore it, if you don’t agree with it.

    For example:
    Many of the major ideas taught in the NAMI classes, they tell you straight up that many of the opinions they have are not widely popular because most people and most doctors have never been exposed to the educational material that NAMI has assembled from international sources.
    Most of the information US Doctors and the US public know about is based on the practice of medicine in the US.
    However, when you include the information of nearly every country in the world with the US then there have are many new ideas about how things work and the best way to treat them.
    for the most part unless your talking about security or nuclear physics its available on the internet, even articles from the obscure journals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slozomby View Post
    for the most part unless your talking about security or nuclear physics its available on the internet, even articles from the obscure journals.
    That being said, you can prove anything using the internet, includnig the existance of unicorns:
    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4PL1ns00h-4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    Just because its on the internet certainly does not mean its trustworthy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slozomby View Post
    for the most part unless your talking about security or nuclear physics its available on the internet, even articles from the obscure journals.
    and even if the full text is not available, an awful lot of it at least has abstract and citation information available on the internet so you can at least ask for it at your library.

    I've got my hands on thousands of pages of research from all over the world like this, dating as far back as 1949.

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    So, back on topic.............

    What are your thoughts on his first court appearance today?

    Not sure if he was putting on an act or heavily medicated because he was not being cooperative during the whole investigation leading up to the court appearance or if that is the real him.
    Yip yip yip nope nope nope

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guerdonian View Post
    That being said, you can prove anything using the internet, includnig the existance of unicorns:
    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4PL1ns00h-4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    Just because its on the internet certainly does not mean its trustworthy.
    and thus why people generally laugh at youtube as a valid reference for anything other than funny animal video's or and people hurting themselves doing dumb things. if the source of that video was the national science foundation or any reputable science journal then its a different story.

    "What are your thoughts on his first court appearance today? " i think he shouldn't have survived long enough for a court appearance. all that will happen now is several million wasted on court fee's before they lock him up forever in either prison or a mental health facility for several more million over the course of his life.

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    After reading all of this I think schristie11 could
    use a brain scan.

  169. #169
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    I'm not impressed by your supposed credentials. The Ft. Hood shooter was a psychiatrist, the Aurora shooter was a neuroscience doctoral student. Reading your posts here you sound about as out of it and as weird as them.

    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    Not completely true my friend.
    I speak from an educated and experienced platform; most mental illnesses do not increase the risk of violence.

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    Wow, why in the hell do you people make me
    wade through the last 2 pages and then get a freakin headache
    over something that from the start was a B.S. statement from someone
    who doesn't even live here?
    And as far as Dr.Evil is concerned, to me it was an act in Court today.
    No one on this Earth knows the depravity that is in the human mind,
    as far as I'm concerned, anybody on their soapbox with a degree in
    Psychology is full of guesses anyway, as they have been taught by another human,
    who by my reckoning, doesn't know it all ether, or could be just as imbalanced
    as the next. Remember, and it doesn't apply to everything " Instructions are just another humans
    opinion".......
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  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hutch3637 View Post
    So, back on topic.............

    What are your thoughts on his first court appearance today?

    Not sure if he was putting on an act or heavily medicated because he was not being cooperative during the whole investigation leading up to the court appearance or if that is the real him.
    The Ronald McDonald hair-do and aloof attitude was pretty unnerving.
    I hope it's not a sign of things (i.e. insanity plea) to come.
    Pretty hard to prove a non-premeditated actions...oh, like booby-trapping your entire apartment prior to your crazed murdering spree...to a court.
    That said, this is 'Murica, so who knows.
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  172. #172
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    American as Apple pie. Violent massacres that is. I suspect that the guy is secretly as happy as a pig in sh*t now with all the attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by JFryauff View Post
    That said, this is 'Murica, so who knows.
    Last edited by tl1; 07-23-2012 at 07:19 PM. Reason: Fixed link.

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  174. #174
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    So, back on topic.............
    What are your thoughts on his first court appearance today?
    Not sure if he was putting on an act or heavily medicated because he was not being cooperative during the whole investigation leading up to the court appearance or if that is the real him.
    after watching the short video of him in court at one point he rolled his eyes pretty good. they say he is smart. i'm under the impression he is faking it. like a poker game, you can only play dumb and straight faced for so long before a subconscious mannerism beats you
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    Quote Originally Posted by shwinn8 View Post
    after watching the short video of him in court at one point he rolled his eyes pretty good. they say he is smart. i'm under the impression he is faking it. like a poker game, you can only play dumb and straight faced for so long before a subconscious mannerism beats you
    Have you ever seen the movie Primal Fear? Same concept in that Edward Norton's character fakes multiple personalities long enough to get acquitted of murder (then lets it slip to his lawyer at the end).

    I, too, think he's faking it. I can't fathom that someone deranged enough to refer to themselves as a character out of a Batman comic is able to so elaborately plan everything in advance (booby-trapping the apt, stockpiling weapons, tear gas and body armor, etc...). While, yes, no "right-minded" person is going to shoot up a crowded theater, I just can't picture a "crazy" person going through all those lengths to plan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilikebmx999 View Post
    Are we just ignoring balls? Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by zeppy View Post
    While, yes, no "right-minded" person is going to shoot up a crowded theater, I just can't picture a "crazy" person going through all those lengths to plan.
    No offense, but a crazy person can and will do things and think things that you can not imagine.
    It's almost useless to try and put your self in the shoes of the insane to discover why they do crazy things, other then a general observation of their paranoia and other emotional states.

    Once a doctor establishes they have some form of mental illness officially, most doctors pay attention to their odd behaviors only anecdotally, they mostly just focus on getting the patient to stay outside of the psychosis state.
    General masses consider you crazy when one lives in the psychosis state most of the time and behaves as though they lost touch with reality.
    But once someone goes into a state of psychosis their behaviors are not sane and can not usually be reasoned out, nor is there much point in it.

    Consider it like the movie "a beautiful mind" the man has no idea that he's living in a psychosis state even tho he is surrounded by real evidence of it. Trying to figure out why he had the particular fantasy delusion that he did is not important, but recognizing he needs help is what matters.

  177. #177
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    Is "crazy" a clinical term used in your professional life?

    Quote Originally Posted by schristie11 View Post
    No offense, but a crazy person can and will do things and think things that you can not imagine.
    It's almost useless to try and put your self in the shoes of the insane to discover why they do crazy things, other then a general observation of their paranoia and other emotional states.

    Once a doctor establishes they have some form of mental illness officially, most doctors pay attention to their odd behaviors only anecdotally, they mostly just focus on getting the patient to stay outside of the psychosis state.
    General masses consider you crazy when one lives in the psychosis state most of the time and behaves as though they lost touch with reality.
    But once someone goes into a state of psychosis their behaviors are not sane and can not usually be reasoned out, nor is there much point in it.

    Consider it like the movie "a beautiful mind" the man has no idea that he's living in a psychosis state even tho he is surrounded by real evidence of it. Trying to figure out why he had the particular fantasy delusion that he did is not important, but recognizing he needs help is what matters.

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    I'm not a psychologist. I've only had entry level psych classes in high school and college. That being said, in my honest opinion I believe insanity pleas for the most part to be complete hogwash. I would think you would have to be insane on some level to purposely take the life of another innocent human being. There is a VERY short list of things I would deem as acceptable reasons to take another's life and most of the items on that list fall under self defense, protecting another's life, or protecting one's property. About the only thing i've seen that I would be content with an insanity plea would be a situation like a man walking in on his wife with another man and he proceeds to beat the hell out of one or both of them. Does it make it ok? No. But he didn't drive home from work planning on doing that, it was a fit of rage at a time of high emotional stress. Even if this guy is clinically psychotic (and I'm sure he is) he committed a premeditated mass murder and should be treated as such. And in my opinion since he had the forethought to set traps in his apartment he knew what he was going to do was wrong and someone would be after him for it. That also proves premeditation in my mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    Is "crazy" a clinical term used in your professional life?
    of course it is

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSlow35th View Post
    About the only thing i've seen that I would be content with an insanity plea would be a situation like a man walking in on his wife with another man and he proceeds to beat the hell out of one or both of them. Does it make it ok? No. But he didn't drive home from work planning on doing that, it was a fit of rage at a time of high emotional stress. Even if this guy is clinically psychotic (and I'm sure he is) he committed a premeditated mass murder and should be treated as such. And in my opinion since he had the forethought to set traps in his apartment he knew what he was going to do was wrong and someone would be after him for it. That also proves premeditation in my mind.
    Been a while since I've had a criminal law class, but the scenario you portrayed is an 'excuse' to the crime, not insanity. In virtually every crime, prosecutors have to prove that the actor acted either intentionally to complete the crime -- eg, trying to kill someone by setting their house on fire -- or acted intentionally with reckless disregard to others in the area -- eg, intending setting a house on fire when you know people are inside, but not 'intending' to kill them. Arguing excuse, the actor's behavior is excused, or mitigated to some degree, to the point that we hold him less culpable -- he was wrong, but he did what a 'reasonable person' might have done such that he is less culpable because of the surrounding circumstances. You can argue rage as an excuse that kept the actor from forming the mental state necessary for the crime. Excuse is where you often get reduced charges. Sometimes, if the excuse is great enough (eg, the recent case of the man who killed another man in the act of sexually abusing his daughter), it can be wipe out the crime all together.

    As I recall, the 'insanity' defense generally comes in where they were incapable of forming the intent to act in the first place. Essentially, they didn't know what they were doing, or didn't have control over their own actions to stop themselves AT THE TIME they harmed others. In short, they truly didn't mean to act in the way they did. Applied to this case, and in light of the preparation, this guy would probably have to show that the insanity set in long ago when he started preparing for the assault, and he's gonna have a hard time making that case imo. His background and apparent intelligence (if he got into CU med school, he is an intelligent individual, no question) will work against him here, too, I'd expect.

    Rather than insanity, he may be going for a defense that he is incompetent to stand trial, which means that he is unable to comprehend the nature of the allegations against him, or the consequences he faces. That is probably an easier showing in this case -- something snapped in him, and he really doesn't know what is going on now.
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    Tystevens, I think it will be very difficult for him to avoid going through a full trial at all. It seems that he's smart enough to give a psychological evaluator a difficult time, but taking everything we know as a whole, it will be tough for him to pull it off. It's the things we don't know that will likely determine where this case goes from here.

    Check out this article that is somewhat related. It's a different sort of incident, but if rehab is possible in this case, is it possible for other terrible, "evil" crimes?
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/ma...at-enough.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by NateHawk View Post
    Tystevens, I think it will be very difficult for him to avoid going through a full trial at all.
    Yep, unless he pleads out to 1st deg murder w/ life in order to avoid death penalty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NateHawk View Post
    Check out this article that is somewhat related. It's a different sort of incident, but if rehab is possible in this case, is it possible for other terrible, "evil" crimes?
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/ma...ml?_r=1&ref=us
    Interesting article, at least from the first couple pages (I didn't make it through all 16). Obviously, the big difference is the kid in the article was a troubled 15 yr old who had a bad week, so to speak. Personally, it is a tough issue, but I kind of agree with rehab in the case of the guy in the story.

    The Batman shooter appears to have engaged in far more planning, calculation, pre-meditation, etc. Plus, his age and maturity will work against him. I don't think he'll ever see the light of day again -- either life sentence in the pen or mental institution, or death penalty is coming for him. But you're right, there are probably many facts we don't know yet, which makes trial-by-media frustrating (and yet, we can't help ourselves).
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    Its the same thing that causes us to armchair quarter back everything from basketball games to auto racing. Its also the same thing that intrigues us to watch shows like law and order and csi.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSlow35th View Post
    Even if this guy is clinically psychotic (and I'm sure he is) he committed a premeditated mass murder and should be treated as such.
    I completely agree, even if your insane when you commit the crime you still have to pay for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tystevens View Post
    Interesting article, at least from the first couple pages (I didn't make it through all 16). Obviously, the big difference is the kid in the article was a troubled 15 yr old who had a bad week, so to speak. Personally, it is a tough issue, but I kind of agree with rehab in the case of the guy in the story.

    The Batman shooter appears to have engaged in far more planning, calculation, pre-meditation, etc. Plus, his age and maturity will work against him. I don't think he'll ever see the light of day again -- either life sentence in the pen or mental institution, or death penalty is coming for him. But you're right, there are probably many facts we don't know yet, which makes trial-by-media frustrating (and yet, we can't help ourselves).
    if you read through the whole thing, it becomes obvious this kid had been thinking about killing his parents for quite some time. but yes, it's quite different what his mind was going through and what this guy's mind (apparently) was going through. the ways they premeditated were quite different.

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    People are loonie in general. We had a 13 year old here in OKC kill his grandparents last christmas with a claw hammer. He did it because they wouldn't buy him Halo 3 because they thought it was to violent. Ironic huh?
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    Quote Originally Posted by NateHawk View Post
    if you read through the whole thing, it becomes obvious this kid had been thinking about killing his parents for quite some time. but yes, it's quite different what his mind was going through and what this guy's mind (apparently) was going through. the ways they premeditated were quite different.
    I guess I just favor rehab more for cases of minors. Some kids really seem to have a hard time understanding the consequences of their actions, or the permancency that comes with them. I work with the Boy Scouts in our local troop, including spending a couple days at camp with them last week. They'll do stuff, get hurt or hurt someone else (minor kid injuries, of course), and I'll say "come on, you can't tell me you didn't know that was going to happen." In some cases, they really didn't seem to know. Unfortunately, spending so much time playing video games and stuff in alternate realities, where there really are no actual consequences, doesn't help this at all.

    As a society, however, we do seem to be extending this blameless period more and more. I remember some of the 'outrage' of students at Penn State when Paterno was fired, and burning things and being upset over the football-related issues. I recall some talking heads saying, 'well, they're mad, but they're just kids, they don't understand what happened to these children that were abused.' By the time you're in college, you better start to understand real life consequences!
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    Damnit. Again blocked at work


    Theres a few things that strike me as odd about what i've read on this.

    #1. Ive red a few articles that have said he purchased over 5,000 rounds of ammunition, tactical swat gear, and a gas mask. Does an individual purchasing that much ammunition not raise a red flag to anyone? I cant buy more than three bags of fertilizer for my lawn without getting put on some government list but this jackass can buy enough ammunition to hijack an oil tanker in somalian waters?

    #2. He has virtually no internet presence.He's a 24 year old grad student at a university and he's never had an account with any major internet site? That doesn't add up to me.

    Something is off about this whole thing but I cant put my finger on it and I dont know enough about the matter to speculate.


    And to add to all the rediculousness surrounding this. One of the survivors has filed multiple lawsuits regarding the incident.

    Survivor vs The Theater: For prodividing the suspect with an unlocked/unalarmed/unguarded emergency exit.

    Survivor vs The suspects doctors: For failing to correctly regulate the suspects medications, he was supposedly on vicodin at the time.

    Survivor vs Warner Bro Pictures: For producing and releasin such a violent film. (Even though he intentionally and voluntarily went to see it?)
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSlow35th View Post



    And to add to all the rediculousness surrounding this. One of the survivors has filed multiple lawsuits regarding the incident.

    Survivor vs The Theater: For prodividing the suspect with an unlocked/unalarmed/unguarded emergency exit.

    Survivor vs The suspects doctors: For failing to correctly regulate the suspects medications, he was supposedly on vicodin at the time.

    Survivor vs Warner Bro Pictures: For producing and releasin such a violent film. (Even though he intentionally and voluntarily went to see it?)


    Something is off about this whole thing but I cant put my finger on it and I dont know enough about the matter to speculate.



    Sue the deepest pockets.

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    I get that part. What I dont get relates to my first two questions. The kid whos suing is just that, a kid out for a quick buck.
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  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSlow35th View Post
    I get that part. What I dont get relates to my first two questions. The kid whos suing is just that, a kid out for a quick buck.


    Isn't how the populace rolls these days?

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    EXCLUSIVE:

    The kid is just acting really hard to be seen as being crazy (imo) and avoid any serious penalty that could come at him. Imo, there is no way some deranged person, could have the capacity to do something like this. Only someone with logical thinking and just an evil spirit...or someone just trying to get attention and try to be the biggest, baddest, hardest outlaw or whatever in modern day media.
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    Survivor vs MovieTheaterChair Manufacturer: Failing to provide bullet proof vests under seats
    Survivor vs gun manufacturer: Failing to make guns that jam earlier
    Survivor vs Popcorn Company: Failing to make built in tactical response weapon into popcorn bucket

    Seriously, law suits are getting ridiculous.

    Meanwhile, not much news about failing to prevent some irresponsible adult from bringing their 6 year old child to a midnight release of a PG-13 movie
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    Holmes more like a "dolt" say sources

    This is an interesting turn after repeatedly hearing how brilliant this guy was.

    Holmes Brilliant? More Like a 'Dolt': Sources



    The latest in the attempt to better define Aurora shooter James Holmes: He apparently had a lot of target practice, isn't so smart, and may have a thing for prostitutes. From the most to least concrete:
    • Based on Holmes' "unusually high" hit rate, police believe he had extensive target practice in advance of the shootings, reports the Los Angeles Times. To be able to kill or wound 70 moving targets in a dark theater cloaked in gas is no easy feat, and the kick from the shotgun (used to shower the theater with buckshot, or something like it) and Glock (which he switched to after his semiautomatic AR-15 jammed) only added to the difficulty level. Such a hit rate under those circumstances would be "unusually high for someone new to this," said one law enforcement official.



    • So he was a skilled shooter—but was he brilliant? His neuroscience career path, his federal grant, that science camp video may indicate so, but the man Holmes listed as his camp mentor calls him a "mediocre" student; another neuroscientist says he was considered a "dolt," reports USA Today. He "should not have gotten into the summer program. I've heard him described as brilliant. This is extremely inaccurate." As for that $26,000 grant, "Everyone has one.There is nothing elite about it." (Business Insider speculates that the grant money could have paid for his weapons cache.)
    • And then there's the latest from TMZ, which claims Holmes frequented prostitutes in the months before the attack. Click to hear from three women Holmes supposedly "reviewed" online.
    • Holmes Brilliant? More Like a 'Dolt': Sources - But he was a skilled shooter, say police

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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    This is an interesting turn after repeatedly hearing how brilliant this guy was.
    Interesting article, but doesn't make sense to me. Just more medial trial.

    First of all, shooting a shotgun into a crowd of over a hundred doesn't take very much practice or aim. You could injure a dozen people with each shot.

    Second, it takes intelligence to get into a medical program. Maybe he wasn't brilliant compared to other med students, but that is kind of like saying the 9th man on an NBA roster isn't an all-star. You'll hear NBA analyists say some players are bad, lack skills, etc., but compared to the rest of the population, they're head and shoulders above.

    Intelligence isn't always the same as street smarts, communication and social abilities, etc. Some of the people scoring highest on standardized tests that I've known have come across as dolt'ish. But I'm sure the dude has the ability to figure things out, study and research better than most.
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    Interesting, like Tystevens said, shooting a shotgun into a crowd of people doesn't really take much practice. Once the bullet bursts into the spread it can catch anyone in its path, same thing goes with the AR-15 although it doesn't burst into spread just pulling the trigger fast enough and shooting at random would hit a lot of people in a short radius. But to pull the trigger that many times and that fast, I believe he must have had some experience in shooting paintball guns...I mean I never had one but I have heard you have to have quick trigger fingers to shoot quickly with them.
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    Developing a quick trigger finger isn't hard at all. Not to mention if you know what you are doing trigger pressure can be adjusted. Everything I've read says that he started out with the shotgun, at a relatively short radius that shotgun is going to do some damage (although at anything over about 15 i'd doubt the majority of shots to be fatal). Then he transisitioned to the AR-15 with a 100 round drum magazine, this supposedly jammed and finished the job with a Glock (unsure of model or caliber) handgun. Ive never shot a paintball gun and ive been to the range with my .40 cal sig handgun more than a handful of times. Putting bullets downrange into a target in a timely fashion is fairly simple with the right gun (my gun has a feature where the first trigger pull takes more effort than the subsequent trigger pulls). If he were to loosely aim at the moving targets from at most the 60-70 feet in the theater and hes any bit proficient with the gun, hes going to do some damage.
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    i didnt want to enter this thread because i figured it would be a gun-control debate,

    Anyway, i've been noticing the 'blame game' that ensues when things like this happen. its always the PARENTS who get blamed. Now, i agree, a bad upbringing can really mess up a person, but sometimes you just have a shytty kid, regardless of how you raised him.

    he was an adult who made his own mind up. you cant go blaming parents before knowing for a fact that they were bad parents. Same with school shootings. many kids are close to adult age, and can make up their own minds. Again, before blaming parents, find out if they even had any bad parenting skills before deciding.

    sort of like when you have an aggresive pet. The owner is always blamed. but hey, sometimes a pet can just be naturally aggressive in nature dispite training, just like some people naturally have depression, anxiety, anger issues that they were born with.
    fap

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