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  1. #1
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    Livestrong backs the health care tax

    Livestrong came out with a statement saying they support the tax that is the health care system(as stated by the Supreme Court).
    For me that means I no longer will support Livestrong but that may mean you support them even more. That is your individual choice and I support that.
    I post this because it IS bicycle related, as Lance Armstrong's organization is, well as bike-related as it gets.
    I plan to cover up the Livestong label on the one jersey I have that sports such. I will never buy a bracelet nor donate to them.
    I think they did the organization a HUGE disservice by making this statement because many of us will no longer be in support of them.
    Nothing more to say on the subject because that would be considered political.

    After this thread goes crazy because people won't leave well enough alone, please feel free to delete it.
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  2. #2
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    My buddy Joe said it..:
    With regards to universal health care, I believe Lauren Caitlin Upton said it best:


    "I personally believe that U.S. Americans are unable to do so because, um, some people out there in our nation don't have maps and, us, I believe that our, uh, education like such as, uh, South Africa and, uh, the Iraq and everywhere like such as, and I believe they should, uh, our education over here in the U.S. should help the U.S., uh,should help South Africa and should help Iraq, and the Asian countries, so we will be able to build up our future."
    Last edited by CharacterZero; 06-29-2012 at 07:32 AM.

  3. #3
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    Livestrong will never see my $$$ again along with any company or org that supports it. Nothing like a huge tax hike.

  4. #4
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    What tax hike?

  5. #5
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    Please move this to the political forum, because it isn't hard to see where it is going. Thanks in advance.

  6. #6
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    can somebody please explain whats going on here to me,? im an aussie and here everybody in the country is covered with our taxes for health care, but the ones on over $80,000 per year have to cover themselves or they get penalised pretty heavy..
    Do you really have a system that people are not covered, exp the poor and disadvantaged people ??
    this cannot be true ?
    how do people living on the street, or without any money get medical attention n care?
    America has to be better than that to its people ?
    im not knocking here at all, you guys have one of the greatest nations on earth by the sound of it but surely you must have a system in place that covers the underdogs n the poor ??
    maybe you do ? im not sure but very interested to here whats going on, cheers

  7. #7
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    Feel free to send any donations to me @ LIVEWRONG®.

  8. #8
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    meh, who cares

  9. #9
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  10. #10
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    "can somebody please explain whats going on here to me,? im an aussie and here everybody in the country is covered with our taxes for health care"

    The USA healthcare system is wrought with corruption, mass profiteering and propaganda.

    It is one of the most profitable institutions in the USA, they want to keep their money, so succesfully brainwash a lot of the locals.

    A lot of Amercians have no healthcare; but the BIG issue is the corrupt insurance companies that refuse to treat people who are paying.

    Only issue is this does not seem to be the correct first step to decent healthcare. Forcing everyone onto bad healthcare seems the wrong way of doing things.

    However 1 step at a time!

    It is so funny reading some of the threads about it
    "OMG I need insurance I paid $42,000 for an X-Ray, we need insurance"
    They miss the point that you can get an X-ray for about £200 in France.

    Total corruption, profiteering off fear, misery and suffering.
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's L'axeman View Post
    can somebody please explain whats going on here to me,? im an aussie and here everybody in the country is covered with our taxes for health care, but the ones on over $80,000 per year have to cover themselves or they get penalised pretty heavy..
    Do you really have a system that people are not covered, exp the poor and disadvantaged people ??
    this cannot be true ?
    how do people living on the street, or without any money get medical attention n care?
    America has to be better than that to its people ?
    im not knocking here at all, you guys have one of the greatest nations on earth by the sound of it but surely you must have a system in place that covers the underdogs n the poor ??
    maybe you do ? im not sure but very interested to here whats going on, cheers
    America is strikingly indifferent to it's citizens. Yes, under the current "system' if you want to call it that, the middle class is totally hosed if they have a sudden illness or accident. Most insurance companies only cover about 60-70% and the bills are priced to stupidity.

    I was hit by a drunk driver in 2008, required emergency abdominal surgery to put my intestines / bladder and arteries back together. My insurance company (Great West) covered about 30k of 80k total, and then dropped me due to my potential future complications.

    Now, under the current "system" no insurance carrier will cover me for my emergency surgery-related complications. Since 2008, I've had 3 small bowel obstructions and each trip to the hospital for 3 days each was billed at over $20,000 each. Had to do it all uninsured.

    The wife and I are declaring bankruptcy to clear ourselves of my medical debt, of which we've already paid over $10k out of pocket.


    So, lesson: In America, if your not really poor, or really rich, you better not get really sick or in a bad accident, 'cause the system will ruin you.


    *Fun pics posted so nobody calls BS.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Livestrong backs the health care tax-accident-copy.jpg  

    Livestrong backs the health care tax-laparotomy.jpg  

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  12. #12
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    yes, the law is a huge help to cancer patients. Livestrong is a cancer charity. I don't know a single cancer patient who isn't excited about no longer fearing being denied health insurance because of "preexisting conditions" or exceeding the abitrary "lifetime maximum". It extends coverage for younger adults, who are an underserved population in the insurance marketplace. There's a lot of other stuff in there very beneficial to cancer patients and survivors.

    I don't know how they could NOT support the legislation. If they did not, they would lose credibility as advocating for patients and survivors in the United States.
    Last edited by Harold; 06-29-2012 at 12:11 PM.

  13. #13
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    Sean K nice, but painful, example.

    For comparrison in that had happened in the UK or Aus you would have a lifetime of free medical care.

    As all conditions are automatically covered it is in the interest of the hospitals to get you fixed fast.
    This is the opposite of private medical where they make their money by keeping you sick.

    Given the choice of the 'free' government helthcare or the fancy premium stuff in the UK I always prefer free (even if given insurance by work).

    eg earlier this week I ripped my toenail half off jumping out of a pool.
    I went to my local doctor (ask for a low priority appointment so waited 2 days). He arranged for a local surgeon to remove toenail, I also got a referral to a sports physio to look at my back as it has been stiff while biking.

    Total cost £0.
    Due to reasonable medical costs in the UK the combined treatment costs for all those issues, surgery and follow up treatment would probably cost less than the first doctor visit in the USA.
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  14. #14
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    I think we all agree that healthcare is way too expensive in this country.. Reform was needed but I believe Obamacare was and is not the right solution.

    I have worked around and with the Government and I can tell you that they cannot manage anything correctly. I have seen it more times than I care to see it....They waste money, they hire their buddies which is the MAIN qualification for a job - I have seen them hire a guy who didn't even know how to reset a computer for an IT job that requires a bachelor degree.

    These are the kinds of folks they are going to hire to manage your healthcare - even if you took the affordability and sustainability argument aside - do you want some Joe Blow who doesn't know which way to put a rectal thermometer in your bum deciding if you can get care or how much care you can get? I sure the heck wouldn't but Obamacare is going to put a bunch of buddy-hired beaurocrats in charge of your care.

    It will not be pretty folks.
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  15. #15
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    S**T, you guys need to riot over there !!!
    sounds like a bit of an outrage to me, you need to get thousands of people to create havoc so that these fat cats take note....
    This situation must be reason enough to have a bit of a riot, riots fix everything, no rape n pillage,( not viking style) just a few days of good old fashioned dust ups in the streets...
    Im calling for it !!!!

  16. #16
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    Perhaps we should email the link of this thread to the big dogs at Livestrong and tell them what we think about this outrage.

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    Sooooooooooooo much of this country/state/city is "socialized." Roads. I drive a Jeep. I don't need paved roads. So, I don't want my taxes going to other peoples roads. I've never had to call the police or fire department. I don't want my taxes going to help protect other people. I don’t have kids but I have to pay school taxes? I could go on and on and on and... Just in case some of you missed it, all of that was tongue and cheek/devil’s advocate.

    I know a lot of you will say all those things are for the greater good. I agree, but I would also agree that a healthy society is for the greater good as well.

    My point is, people have no problem with pretty much every other "socialized" part of our society but they don't want to help a 6 year old with type 1 diabetes who's family is $100,000 in debt because no one will insure them. I don’t understand that.
    Now, I’ll admit I haven’t read through nor understand the whole Obama care thing. When I get my next 6 week vacation, I’ll read through the whole thing and report back.

    Go to Denmark, their tax rate is around 50%. But they are, by studies(whatever that's worth) are some of the happiest people in the world.

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    Half of the fukin people in this country don't even pay taxes, sure lets give em health care, we already give em everything else. More reason for welfare recipients to stay home, don't need a fukin job. Obama gonna tax everyone right down to the lowest common denominater, no impetus for anyone to excell. Work your ass off so the gment can take it away and give it to somone who has never had a job and never will. The American Dream my ass.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean K View Post
    America is strikingly indifferent to it's citizens. Yes, under the current "system' if you want to call it that, the middle class is totally hosed if they have a sudden illness or accident. Most insurance companies only cover about 60-70% and the bills are priced to stupidity.

    I was hit by a drunk driver in 2008, required emergency abdominal surgery to put my intestines / bladder and arteries back together. My insurance company (Great West) covered about 30k of 80k total, and then dropped me due to my potential future complications.

    Now, under the current "system" no insurance carrier will cover me for my emergency surgery-related complications. Since 2008, I've had 3 small bowel obstructions and each trip to the hospital for 3 days each was billed at over $20,000 each. Had to do it all uninsured.

    The wife and I are declaring bankruptcy to clear ourselves of my medical debt, of which we've already paid over $10k out of pocket.


    So, lesson: In America, if your not really poor, or really rich, you better not get really sick or in a bad accident, 'cause the system will ruin you.


    *Fun pics posted so nobody calls BS.
    So to you non-Americans, ^^^ this is just one (of millions) example of an all-to-common situation in the US. The anti-healthcare faction in this nation point to people like Sean as an example of a lazy, shiftless loser that simply wants to, and I quote someone I know: "use my tax dollars for free." Never mind the fact that he had no control over the original injury, that no insurance company will cover him, or that he'll have to deal with the complications of his injury for the rest of his life. There's lots like him, including me, that make enough money to be considered middle class, but are denied insurance for "pre-existing" conditions, or have to chose between paying rent or their equally pricey insurance payment (if they can find someone willing to cover them in the first place). Of course, all of these same "patriots" that are so appalled by the Healthcare Mandate are also just one small injury, illness, or accident from the same fate, but they've all been brainwashed into thinking that healthcare is some sort of Constitutional issue; it's not...
    Stay healthy Sean!

    And Lawson, if you actually knew anything about how this Healthcare bill worked, you'd know that virtually all of the actual medical system WILL STILL BE run by private hospitals, staff, and insurance companies, not government. Another example of how people in this country are being lied to by the insurance companies and their conservative errand boys in State and Federal government...

  20. #20
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    health care reform will be hard to do. doctors making bank. nurse unions at over $35.00 an hour.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    Half of the fukin people in this country don't even pay taxes, sure lets give em health care, we already give em everything else. More reason for welfare recipients to stay home, don't need a fukin job. Obama gonna tax everyone right down to the lowest common denominater, no impetus for anyone to excell. Work your ass off so the gment can take it away and give it to somone who has never had a job and never will. The American Dream my ass.
    Everyone pays taxes. Some don't pay income taxes, but still pay payroll taxes. In fact, those that don't pay income taxes almost without exception pay higher payroll taxes -and a larger portion of their overall income- than the wealthy that rely more on income generated from investments (which aren't garnished with payroll taxes). Everyone also pays sales taxes on everything from food, gas, homeownership, etc. These taxes are much more onerous on the working poor than the wealthy. Another example of mis-information and a lack of knowledge poisoning any chance of real debate in this country.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    So to you non-Americans, ^^^ this is just one (of millions) example of an all-to-common situation in the US. The anti-healthcare faction in this nation point to people like Sean as an example of a lazy, shiftless loser that simply wants to, and I quote someone I know: "use my tax dollars for free." Never mind the fact that he had no control over the original injury, that no insurance company will cover him, or that he'll have to deal with the complications of his injury for the rest of his life. There's lots like him, including me, that make enough money to be considered middle class, but are denied insurance for "pre-existing" conditions, or have to chose between paying rent or their equally pricey insurance payment (if they can find someone willing to cover them in the first place). Of course, all of these same "patriots" that are so appalled by the Healthcare Mandate are also just one small injury, illness, or accident from the same fate, but they've all been brainwashed into thinking that healthcare is some sort of Constitutional issue; it's not...
    Stay healthy Sean!

    And Lawson, if you actually knew anything about how this Healthcare bill worked, you'd know that virtually all of the actual medical system WILL STILL BE run by private hospitals, staff, and insurance companies, not government. Another example of how people in this country are being lied to by the insurance companies and their conservative errand boys in State and Federal government...



    The government controls all healthcare that falls under Medicaid. How much health care do you think is going to fall under Medicaid in the future? There is a massive incursion into health care by the government now, it is certainly not going to be less in the future. I agree that the health care system needs improving but at a cost of over a trillion dollars this may not be the way to accomplish it. My two cents.

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    Big words from a little man: You worthless sh!t eating scum bag. You have a lot to learn about the system, and life in general. Can't even sign your name?

  24. #24
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    "I sure the heck wouldn't but Obamacare is going to put a bunch of buddy-hired beaurocrats in charge of your care"

    The NHS in the UK is criminally miss managed, yet still can put out a higher standard of healthcare than the USA for only a few % of the cost.

    At least when you are being corrupt in public service you have to try and be sneaky.
    The doctors and insurance companies get open bonuses for screwing people over.

    Also the current system means the skilled people who get the jobs are targeted to profit, not quality of care.
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  25. #25
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    Sh*t guys i meant riot on the streets not in here, lol.......

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    The government controls all healthcare that falls under Medicaid. How much health care do you think is going to fall under Medicaid in the future? There is a massive incursion into health care by the government now, it is certainly not going to be less in the future. I agree that the health care system needs improving but at a cost of over a trillion dollars this may not be the way to accomplish it. My two cents.
    Depends on who you believe then.

    From the Congressional Budget Office (non-partisan):

    The Act was designed to reduce healthcare costs by making services available to the 32 million who currently can't get insurance. They often use a hospital emergency room as their primary care physician, increasing costs for everyone.
    The Federal government will pay states to add more low income people to Medicaid.
    The states will be required to set up insurance exchanges to make it easier to shop for private health insurance coverage.
    Insurance companies can no longer deny children coverage for pre-existing conditions. This benefit applies to adults in 2014.
    If a company denies someone coverage, that person can go to an external appeals process.
    Insurance companies can no longer drop anyone from coverage once they get sick.
    Parents can put their children up to age 26 on their health insurance plans. This will bring more profit for health insurance companies, since they will receive more premiums without higher costs for these healthier individuals.
    The Medicare "doughnut hole" gap in coverage will be eliminated by 2020.
    The Act will lower the budget deficit by $143 billion for the next 10 years by raising some taxes and shifting more cost burdens. (Source: CBO CBO Report on Health Care Reform and the Budget)


    From the well-know hyper conservative Heritage Foundation:
    New taxes, penalties, and fees will discourage businesses from growing, lowering economic growth by $706 billion and costing 800,000 jobs.
    The Federal government will force the 18 million of the uninsured to go under Medicaid, while others must accept another government program. Despite this, millions will still remain uninsured.
    Each year, $125 million will go towards subsidizing school-based health centers and programs to reduce teen pregnancy, with no requirement to reduce abortions. Parents won't know what services their children will receive.
    Half of those on Medicare Advantage will lose this coverage thank to rate increases.
    Health care costs will rise thanks to $47 billion in new taxes on drug companies and medical device makers.
    Nearly two-thirds of doctors are considering abandoning any kind of government-sponsored health care insurance, stating that regulations are too high and reimbursement too low.
    By forcing States to accept federally-mandated health insurance, the Act violates States' rights.
    Small businesses, the drivers of new job growth, will be especially penalized by $52 billion in new taxes and new IRS reporting requirements.
    Despite $500 billion in new taxes, Obamacare will increase the deficit by $500 billion over the next 10 years. (Source: Heritage Foundation, Impact of Obamacare)

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    And Lawson, if you actually knew anything about how this Healthcare bill worked, you'd know that virtually all of the actual medical system WILL STILL BE run by private hospitals, staff, and insurance companies, not government. Another example of how people in this country are being lied to by the insurance companies and their conservative errand boys in State and Federal government...
    No one, not people that support it or the people against it know what is in this law. Its over 3000 pages and was pieced together literally in 48 hours before it was passed. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. No one really knows how this thing will work. Obama says the penalties for not buying insurance are a mandate and not a tax and yet the supreme court upholds the law because its classified to them as a tax and not a mandate. They dont even know for themselves what they have.

    I am all for overhauling the health insurance system and fixing what needs fixing, but there is a right way and wrong way to do this. 11th hour deals and midnight votes on a bill no one has seen or read or studied was not the way to do it.
    "I think im gonna go to walmart and look at the mountain bikes and see if i can salvage the rear frame."- Nick_Knipp 3/21/12

  28. #28
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    It seems that a lot of non americans like to talk about how good their free healthcare is, nothing in life is free. You just pay higher taxes on other things so it feels free. One way or another, you are paying for it.

  29. #29
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    Sean K. That is simply terrible. Sorry to hear that. We really do need to take better care of our own...especially the ones doing things by the book and following the rules/laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6bobby9 View Post
    No one, not people that support it or the people against it know what is in this law. Its over 3000 pages and was pieced together literally in 48 hours before it was passed. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. No one really knows how this thing will work. Obama says the penalties for not buying insurance are a mandate and not a tax and yet the supreme court upholds the law because its classified to them as a tax and not a mandate. They dont even know for themselves what they have.

    I am all for overhauling the health insurance system and fixing what needs fixing, but there is a right way and wrong way to do this. 11th hour deals and midnight votes on a bill no one has seen or read or studied was not the way to do it.
    Unfortunately in our hyper-partisan political climate, it can't be done in a rational way. Judging by the venom even among a bunch of MTB'ers (thus the nasty neg rep comment I received), there will never be a rational agreement on this issue. FWIW, I don't think that the healthcare law is perfect, but it's better than what we've been working with, by a long shot.

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    I'm actually disappointed in myself; I make a point to never look at my "rep." But I knew this would bring the spineless anonymous keyboard warriors out.

    Here's what I got:
    "Selfish, ignorant, scum bag. Ever think that most Americans don't drive f***y Jeeps and need paved roads? Most Americans have kids and would rather their tax dollars go to schools. You seem to just think about yourself you worthless pathetic tool."
    (I censored the gay slur. They didn't)

    It's so funny when you see someone who is truly unable to comprehend something then they just go off. The fact that everyone doesn't drive Jeeps was exactly my point. Just like not everyone chose to get hit by a drunk driver or born with diabetes or whatever. The anonymous rep thing is so, bully, 10 year old girl stuff.

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    This thread is bin-bound without a doubt...

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    For you legal experts:

    Doesn't the House vote have to be a minimum of 3/5 to pass a new tax?

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    I would question the organization over being a well run charity before political support in area where they advocate.

    I don't have the answer, and as much as I often dislike government intrusion into my life, I realize that living in an organized society is way easier and more fun than the dog-eat-dog, social darwinism that is mode o day.

    After that I see no ownership of hypocrisy when when groups forget about public goods they use. Oh, wait, I get it, it's only the other person who's supposed to live by this new social darwinism.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adim_X View Post
    It seems that a lot of non americans like to talk about how good their free healthcare is, nothing in life is free. You just pay higher taxes on other things so it feels free. One way or another, you are paying for it.
    for sure Adim, your right mate we do pay for it in our taxes, n im happy to do that, we support the underdogs, middle class, n low income earners here, not every bodies happy about it but i am........

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenny7 View Post
    I'm actually disappointed in myself; I make a point to never look at my "rep." But I knew this would bring the spineless anonymous keyboard warriors out.

    Here's what I got:
    "Selfish, ignorant, scum bag. Ever think that most Americans don't drive f***y Jeeps and need paved roads? Most Americans have kids and would rather their tax dollars go to schools. You seem to just think about yourself you worthless pathetic tool."
    (I censored the gay slur. They didn't)

    It's so funny when you see someone who is truly unable to comprehend something then they just go off. The fact that everyone doesn't drive Jeeps was exactly my point. Just like not everyone chose to get hit by a drunk driver or born with diabetes or whatever. The anonymous rep thing is so, bully, 10 year old girl stuff.



    Hand it over to a mod, there is no reason anyone has to put up with kind of bigoted vitriol imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adim_X View Post
    One way or another, you are paying for it.
    In our case, our kids are going to be paying for it. It's time to fix the system and the Affordable Health Care Act is a start -- and a "start" on a fix is something the conservatives never managed to do when they were in control of congress and presidency. Sure, the AHCA is not the be-all-end-all, but it's a start. Let's roll up our sleeves and keep working.

    And it's really funny that on just about any index for ranking prosperity and happiness, those dang socialist countries in northern Europe (and Canada/Australia/New Zealand) kick our (the US's) a$$. Chew on that for awhile. So my Euro and Aussie friends in the same career as me have the same lifestyle -- solidly middle class. But they aren't (a) worrying how to pay for the kid's college education, (b) worried about wether their kids will be able to get healthcare when they're out of college, (c) worried about funding retirement. They have maybe 3 times the tax rate I have, but we actually have the same disposable income. The one thing I have more of than they do are worries for the future -- sure cuts into my "happiness score".

    (I don't support Livestrong 'cause Lance was a fraud/doper and there are more worthy places for my charity dollars.)

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Hand it over to a mod, there is no reason anyone has to put up with kind of bigoted vitriol imo.
    I did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by misanthrope View Post
    In our case, our kids are going to be paying for it. It's time to fix the system and the Affordable Health Care Act is a start -- and a "start" on a fix is something the conservatives never managed to do when they were in control of congress and presidency. Sure, the AHCA is not the be-all-end-all, but it's a start. Let's roll up our sleeves and keep working.

    And it's really funny that on just about any index for ranking prosperity and happiness, those dang socialist countries in northern Europe (and Canada/Australia/New Zealand) kick our (the US's) a$$. Chew on that for awhile. So my Euro and Aussie friends in the same career as me have the same lifestyle -- solidly middle class. But they aren't (a) worrying how to pay for the kid's college education, (b) worried about wether their kids will be able to get healthcare when they're out of college, (c) worried about funding retirement. They have maybe 3 times the tax rate I have, but we actually have the same disposable income. The one thing I have more of than they do are worries for the future -- sure cuts into my "happiness score".

    (I don't support Livestrong 'cause Lance was a fraud/doper and there are more worthy places for my charity dollars.)




    Refer to your post when Europe is in the midst of their upcomming depression. The spend with out regard is over, time to pay up. In case you haven't noticed, spending other peoples money never works out. from the amount of neg rep, it seems that some people can't present a reasonable argument and have to respond like five year olds. Outstanding work. Little wonder this country is turning into the Nanny state.

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    Futhermore, if you really want a solution address the profit based nature of health care, throw in the ridiculous costs of an education to get in the health care field at any meaningful level and add in the obscene amount of insurance that must be carried by doctors and hospitals and the astronomical malpractice awards for trivial matters and you may have the begginings of true reform. What we have now is no reform at all.

  42. #42
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    no surprise livestrong would support that crap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    Refer to your post when Europe is in the midst of their upcomming depression.
    Yeah, Europe has some issues, but strangely enough it comes from those trying to be most laissez-faire (southern Europe). The euro tying the more responsible countries (those with high taxes so they're paying for it NOW, not like us or the less responsible countries putting it off) to the irresponsible countries will cause some problems. But Northern European economies will weather their "depression" far better than the US and other would-be laissez-faire economies will. As someone above said, the horribly inefficient health care system run by a government (in the UK) still delivers better care at a small fraction of the cost we pay here. I'm willing to pay for it and know that inefficiency is part of the cost, but I'm also wise enough to know that I'll come out ahead.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    Refer to your post when Europe is in the midst of their upcomming depression. The spend with out regard is over, time to pay up. In case you haven't noticed, spending other peoples money never works out. from the amount of neg rep, it seems that some people can't present a reasonable argument and have to respond like five year olds. Outstanding work. Little wonder this country is turning into the Nanny state.
    mate, with all due respect, dont mix us n the kiwis up with europe, in Australia we are one of the only countries to not go through a depression in the last decade when many others have, we have unemployment of 6%, good average wage, a health system that at times is stretched in the public side but if you have serious problems they get fixed, yes we pay high taxes but our disposable income is similar to yours n our dollar is about 98cents to the US dollar...
    our price for homes is a hell of a lot higher than yours but we have a medicare that covers everybody not just those that can pay for it, everybody, and saying that there is plenty of room for improvement with it, its not perfect.....
    you guys have one of the greatest countries in the world, and a good health care system should go with that, you should be paying higher taxes to cover it imo, cheers
    p.s, sorry if im jumping to conclusions or being naive, but you guys deserve better, n if that means payin a bit more in tax to help out you fellow brothers n sisters i think it could work

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's L'axeman View Post
    mate, with all due respect, dont mix us n the kiwis up with europe, in Australia we are one of the only countries to not go through a depression in the last decade when many others have, we have unemployment of 6%, good average wage, a health system that at times is stretched in the public side but if you have serious problems they get fixed, yes we pay high taxes but our disposable income is similar to yours n our dollar is about 98cents to the US dollar...
    our price for homes is a hell of a lot higher than yours but we have a medicare that covers everybody not just those that can pay for it, everybody, and saying that there is plenty of room for improvement with it, its not perfect.....
    you guys have one of the greatest countries in the world, and a good health care system should go with that, you should be paying higher taxes to cover it imo, cheers
    p.s, sorry if im jumping to conclusions or being naive, but you guys deserve better, n if that means payin a bit more in tax to help out you fellow brothers n sisters i think it could work





    Did I include Austrailia in my post? (runs to look) No, I didn't think I did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    And Lawson, if you actually knew anything about how this Healthcare bill worked, you'd know that virtually all of the actual medical system WILL STILL BE run by private hospitals, staff, and insurance companies, not government. Another example of how people in this country are being lied to by the insurance companies and their conservative errand boys in State and Federal government...
    Question #1: Have you read the entire 2,700 page bill? If so, congratulations to you. You would have done something not even the Congressmen who voted on the bill did.

    Question #2: Did you get to read the bill before they voted on it? No. Because they didn't release the bill until after it was passed.

    Question #3: This is a common sense question. Why would the Government go to such lengths to pass a 2,700 page bill they never read and you never were allowed to read before it was passed if they were just going to let the entire industry be ran by the private sector?

    Question #4: How can the Government guarantee you healthcare if it is being run by the private sector?

    Question #5: If the medical system was not being run by the Government and the Government was not involved, then why are they taxing you for it? Do you think the money to pay for 300 million people to have universal healthcare is going to come from trees? Remember: Who gots the money, gots the power.

    Please enlighten the rest of the forum with your answers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adim_X View Post
    It seems that a lot of non americans like to talk about how good their free healthcare is, nothing in life is free. You just pay higher taxes on other things so it feels free. One way or another, you are paying for it.
    They are paying for it one way or another, but no one pays as much as we do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    Did I include Austrailia in my post? (runs to look) No, I didn't think I did.
    sorry Floyd, my mistake mate, i was reading MISANTHROPES words that you book marked if thats what you call it, sorry brother, my mistake mate cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by s0ckeyeus View Post
    They are paying for it one way or another, but no one pays as much as we do.


    /\This, the human cost of the current system is incalculable. When there can be civil discourse about the issue things may begin to change. That is how successful change occurs, with a civil consensus, not the partisan ways things are being done. This country has become entirely too polarized imo, does not foster success.

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    Did the US have to "fix" the entire system right NOW, when we are $16B in debt and growing by the millions every second, when the whole economy is in the shitter? Adding another costly government-run, inefficient, COSTLY plan in the process.

    All you folks that think your life is gonna be lollipops and rainbows now, please let me know how good life is on Suicidal Security when you retire. When you have paid in in tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars for retirement and get back peanuts.

    Government cannot help themselves. They will spend every dollar they can get and THEN some. Wake up.

    BTW I don't distinguish between R and D after somebodies' name. I assume they are all guilty until they prove themselves innocent.

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    I've been seeing this quote everywhere "our forefathers would be shooting by now" just sayin'

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    Got to love getting neg rep for hating obamacare!

    Here is some stuff I know that is going to happen.

    X owns said company, X see that its going to cost him Y to have heath insurnace on everyone that works for him. The penalty for not having the employers covered is Z. Z is less that Y. He will pay the penalty saving the company money. Then the employees will get state run care out of pocket or have to pay a fine, opps, TAX for not having heath insurance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    Question #1: Have you read the entire 2,700 page bill? If so, congratulations to you. You would have done something not even the Congressmen who voted on the bill did.
    No, and neither did you. I do however read the many synopsis of what it does and does not entail, which allows me to know that it does not mean that some "buddy-hired beaurocrats" will be deciding the details of everyone's healthcare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    Question #2: Did you get to read the bill before they voted on it? No. Because they didn't release the bill until after it was passed.
    You already know the answer. I can only guess that this rhetorical question is asked so that you can express your anger that the bill was not published for you to read all 2700+ pages before it was passed, which is not all that uncommon, especially with the partisan bickering and deal-making that Congress is prone to these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    Question #3: This is a common sense question. Why would the Government go to such lengths to pass a 2,700 page bill they never read and you never were allowed to read before it was passed if they were just going to let the entire industry be ran by the private sector?
    Because it has been read, by many people both in government and out, and they all state what it will and won't do and one thing it won't do is nationalize healthcare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    Question #4: How can the Government guarantee you healthcare if it is being run by the private sector?
    Show me where the government is guaranteeing healthcare? Does the government guarantee food? Does it provide to everyone? No on both counts, but it does insure that it won't poison you, that there are no monopolies (and thus price manipulation) on basic staples, and will help you out if you can't afford it. If you have a problem with the government's attempt to provide basic healthcare to all, then I'd expect you to have a problem with them regulating your food as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    Question #5: If the medical system was not being run by the Government and the Government was not involved, then why are they taxing you for it? Do you think the money to pay for 300 million people to have universal healthcare is going to come from trees? Remember: Who gots the money, gots the power.
    Using your proverb, the insurance and healthcare industries have the money, which means that they must have the power. Seems to be true in this case as they've done a great job of convincing many Americans that healthcare reform is akin to communism and that our way of life will come to an abrupt end. And it's only a "tax" if you refuse to get healthcare coverage. Only fair I'd say since if you don't have coverage and you get hurt or sick, you'll end up in an ER and the rest of the taxpaying public will pay your bill, which is what is happening now with our current system. Ironic as many of those that hate this legislation also bemoan that fact that so many people use ERs without paying...

    BTW, "government" isn't some singular malevolent entity with a desire to screw you over. It's people, many of whom are your neighbors and friends, working just like you are and hoping for the same quality of life that you want. I don't work in the government sector, but I have friends that do. They run the gamut from seasonal custodians for the USFS to military personnel, to policy analysts in DC. Some are conservative, some are liberal, most are in between and they are all good people. Are they as evil, uncaring and clueless as you make them out to be?

  54. #54
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    oh boy....

    if we can keep this 'very important new issue' that will effect us in the US for decades (possible) civil i'll let it go for a bit.

    but please-O-please do not resort to the standard reactions of internet frustration like:
    - you dumb Americas
    - you dumb [insert country here]
    - name calling (like you are an idiot, dumbass, stoopid, moron, etc...)
    - your momma
    - no baiting.

    Rockcrusher very well may come in and shut it down out of principle alone.

    I might do the same if it gets ornery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    Sean K. That is simply terrible. Sorry to hear that. We really do need to take better care of our own...especially the ones doing things by the book and following the rules/laws.
    It was. The worst part and a question some may have is "Why didn't her car insurance cover your medical bills?".

    The answer was that she was a low-income individual and carried the Virginia state minimum car insurance. The only way to get more $$$ out of her was to sue her. However, suing someone who doesn't have any assets is utterly pointless. I saw no less than 4 lawyers and they all told me I was screwed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean K View Post
    It was. The worst part and a question some may have is "Why didn't her car insurance cover your medical bills?".

    The answer was that she was a low-income individual and carried the Virginia state minimum car insurance. The only way to get more $$$ out of her was to sue her. However, suing someone who doesn't have any assets is utterly pointless. I saw no less than 4 lawyers and they all told me I was screwed.
    You could have sued, just would have taken forever to get the money. Over time you could have garnished her wages, leans on the house and car. Also depeneding on how drunk she was and where she drank at, gone after the bar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2000Z3M View Post
    You could have sued, just would have taken forever to get the money. Over time you could have garnished her wages, leans on the house and car. Also depeneding on how drunk she was and where she drank at, gone after the bar.
    She was on welfare (TANF) and in govt. housing. Her life was already bad enough. I decided that any potential gain wasn't worth it, my lawyers agreed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2000Z3M View Post
    X owns said company, X see that its going to cost him Y to have heath insurnace on everyone that works for him. The penalty for not having the employers covered is Z. Z is less that Y. He will pay the penalty saving the company money.
    This is true and one of the crappy things about the bill. However, as healthcare is one of the major benefits of working for a company as a salaried employee, I think that many firms will keep their employee plans, or if they don't, they'll increase financial compensation to employees which will help them offset buying insurance in the exchange system. Maybe not, but that wouldn't be much different then the current practice of staffing your business with temps that receive no benefits and then laying them off for a couple of days before the law requires that you hire them on as full-time employees.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2000Z3M View Post
    Then the employees will get state run care out of pocket or have to pay a fine, opps, TAX for not having heath insurance.
    This is not true. Insurance will be sold and provided by the same private health insurance companies that exist now, but it will be easier to compare rates and benefits between them (and it should be a more transparent process then the nightmare that it is today) in the exchange system. Furthermore, insurance companies will no longer be allowed to deny coverage based on pre-existing or suspected conditions, which is something I've had to deal with. Some lower wage workers may be eligible for coverage under Medicaid but less then 3% of Americans (about 8.1 million) will get subsidized cheap or "free" state or federal government Medicaid coverage.
    Last edited by huntermos; 06-29-2012 at 01:34 PM.

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    Livestrong is smart for endorsing this. A lot of times if you think about your runners and cyclists they are a lot of time city people. City people as clear by the USA Today county by county election map vote democrat and are liberal on issues such as this. They may lose 3 people from the suburbs and red state areas but they gain 10 city people who typically vote democrat. And private businesses have the right to endorse who/what they want just as much as individuals do so they can knock themselves out.

    My issue here is not necesarrily wether the healthcare bill will actually help people or not but what it allows the government to do. We now have a country where we can be forced by the policing power of government to act in a way we may not want to act. How long before we pay a "tax" for not buyng/owning a hybrid car or having solar panels on our roofs? What about a penalty tax for not investing in union companies? A penalty tax for not buying corn to support the midwest farmers? They could even put a penalty tax for not sending your kid to a government school.

    Or say the Republicans are in power and want to use this new power. How about a tax for not joining the military? A tax for not owning a firearm in order to defend yourself? A tax for not watching at least 1 hour of Fox News every night. Or what about taxing road cyclists for clogging up city streets with their froofy looking speedo pants??? It is now almost limitless of what the government can tax you for now. Taxes by the way are often used to alter behavior (cigarette taxes for example).

    The worst part is that this is an unavoidable tax. With our other taxes you can opt out of paying them in a sense. Don't want to pay a gasoline tax? Don't drive on a public road (the concept behind off road diesel). If you don't want to pay an income tax then you don't have to take in an income. Same for property taxes, you don't have to own property (though there may be a tax for not owning property soon). This healthcare tax applies to all who are alive. The only way to opt out of this tax is to not be living.

    Though if you are a Republican then I think this is a dream come true for you. This gives Romney a great platform to campaign against becasue it puts President Obama in a bad spot. People hate "new taxes" and the administration has stated multiple times that this is not a tax. At the same time it was upheld as a tax. Talk about loosing while winning. The better part is if the Republicans can get the executive branch and regain a majority in the senate (which it doesn't have now) then this "tax" can be overturned by a simple majority vote instead of a supermajority.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by drj85 View Post
    I've been seeing this quote everywhere "our forefathers would be shooting by now" just sayin'
    The founding fathers who were serving in congress in the 1790s passed a bill requiring people working for private companies to buy health insurance administered by the US government. The President who signed the bill into law was also a founding father. So no, they would not be shooting by now, they would be asking "What took you idiots so long?"

  61. #61
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    im usually all over the political scene, but i needed a break and went riding. a lot. missed all this nonsense in the news, please continue.
    If you arent bleeding, you arent riding hard enough.
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    What gets me is that Obamacare is just Romneycare in another colour.
    Why is it when the Repubs do it it is ok - ie Romney in Mass.
    But when the Dems do it - the Repubs come in in force against it like it was the work of the Devil. Does that mean that Romney is the Devil?

    Confused in Canada?!?!?!?!

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    All I can say is that I'm retired, middle class, and already
    have a health care plan that I pay for. Want to bet that my
    payments will go sky high now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mykel View Post
    What gets me is that Obamacare is just Romneycare in another colour.
    Why is it when the Repubs do it it is ok - ie Romney in Mass.
    But when the Dems do it - the Repubs come in in force against it like it was the work of the Devil. Does that mean that Romney is the Devil?

    Confused in Canada?!?!?!?!

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    both sides want more federal powers. both sides object when the other side gets it 1st.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    No, and neither did you. I do however read the many synopsis of what it does and does not entail, which allows me to know that it does not mean that some "buddy-hired beaurocrats" will be deciding the details of everyone's healthcare.
    So you admit you haven't read it yet you claim that I don't understand how the healthcare system will work which implies that you do. Obviously, since you didn't read the entire 2700 page bill for yourself, you don't understand either. Instead, you claim you relied on someone else explaining it to you which I ask you to cite the source that you got your information from.

    Also, tell me what part of the federal government does not have "buddy-hired beaurocrats" in it? IRS? Yes. FBI? Yes. DHS? Yes. White House? Yes. Congress? Yes. Go to usajobs.gov and every federal service hires for positions?

    So you are to tell me that Obamacare, being a government run program which it is, will not be chock-full of beaurocracy?

    With between 100 - 300 million people who will eventually be covered under Obamacare, don't you think that the costs for the Government will be very, very expensive? After all, this is the same Government that spends $800 for a hammer.

    Right now, only 49% of Americans pay taxes. How in the bloody Sam Hades do you think 150 million taxpayers are going to be able to afford healthcare for 100 - 300 million people? That doesn't even take into account the illegal aliens who will get this healthcare as well.

    So the Government will be forced to ration the care out - there is absolutely no other way they can run this show without rationing - otherwise they will go bankrupt faster than Oprah with a pack of HoHo's.

    How will they ration it? Drum roll please.....a beaurocracy that will determine allocation of funds, priority of who gets the funds, etc.. etc.. Drum Roll again......who is the greatest financial burden in society as far as healthcare is concerned? So who is going to be targeted for rationing? Yes - infants and elderly since they are naturally the greatest burden on the system.

    No charge for the lesson.

    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    You already know the answer. I can only guess that this rhetorical question is asked so that you can express your anger that the bill was not published for you to read all 2700+ pages before it was passed, which is not all that uncommon, especially with the partisan bickering and deal-making that Congress is prone to these days.
    Do you think the public should not be allowed to see any bill that will affect them prior to their representatives voting on them? After all, these representatives are supposed to represent you? They are supposed to be answerable to you.

    When they fail to represent you, they have become literally tyrants. Why do you think the United States became a nation? It was this very fact that led the founders to break ties with the Crown - Taxation without Representation (I am sure you heard this in school growing up I hope).

    When the Congress passed Obamacare which the Supreme Court and Obama yesterday clarified IS A TAX, you as a citizen just got taxed without any input, any knowledge, or any consideration from the representative you elected to represent you. That my friend is tyranny.

    Again.. No charge for the lesson.

    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    Because it has been read, by many people both in government and out, and they all state what it will and won't do and one thing it won't do is nationalize healthcare.
    Who has read it? I can bet you that most of the Congressman, Obama, and even the Supreme Court that ruled on it yesterday still has not read the bill.

    2700 pages is a long read my friend. Too many pages for a busy Congressman to read and especially too long for Obama to read between rounds of golf.

    Oh by the way, on a side note, I did read section 5210 of the Obamacare bill where Obama got that private army he spoke about in 2008 before the election. Tell me how the following applies to your healthcare?

    SEC. 5210. ESTABLISHING A READY RESERVE CORPS.
    Section 203 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C. 204)
    is amended to read as follows:
    ‘‘SEC. 203. COMMISSIONED CORPS AND READY RESERVE CORPS.
    ‘‘(a) ESTABLISHMENT.—
    ‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—There shall be in the Service a commissioned
    Regular Corps and a Ready Reserve Corps for service
    in time of national emergency.
    ‘‘(2) REQUIREMENT.—All commissioned officers shall be citizens
    of the United States and shall be appointed without regard
    to the civil-service laws and compensated without regard to
    the Classification Act of 1923, as amended.
    ‘‘(3) APPOINTMENT.—Commissioned officers of the Ready
    Reserve Corps shall be appointed by the President and commissioned
    officers of the Regular Corps shall be appointed by
    the President with the advice and consent of the Senate.
    ‘‘(4) ACTIVE DUTY.—Commissioned officers of the Ready
    Reserve Corps shall at all times be subject to call to active
    duty by the Surgeon General, including active duty for the
    purpose of training.
    ‘‘(5) WARRANT OFFICERS.—Warrant officers may be
    appointed to the Service for the purpose of providing support
    to the health and delivery systems maintained by the Service
    and any warrant officer appointed to the Service shall be considered
    for purposes of this Act and title 37, United States Code,
    to be a commissioned officer within the Commissioned Corps
    of the Service.
    ‘‘(b) ASSIMILATING RESERVE CORP OFFICERS INTO THE REGULAR
    CORPS.—Effective on the date of enactment of the Patient Protection
    and Affordable Care Act, all individuals classified as officers in
    the Reserve Corps under this section (as such section existed on
    the day before the date of enactment of such Act) and serving
    on active duty shall be deemed to be commissioned officers of
    the Regular Corps.
    ‘‘(c) PURPOSE AND USE OF READY RESEARCH.—
    ‘‘(1) PURPOSE.—The purpose of the Ready Reserve Corps
    is to fulfill the need to have additional Commissioned Corps
    personnel available on short notice (similar to the uniformed
    service’s reserve program) to assist regular Commissioned
    Corps personnel to meet both routine public health and emergency
    response missions.


    ‘‘(2) USES.—The Ready Reserve Corps shall—
    ‘‘(A) participate in routine training to meet the general
    and specific needs of the Commissioned Corps;
    ‘‘(B) be available and ready for involuntary calls to
    active duty during national emergencies and public health
    crises, similar to the uniformed service reserve personnel;


    ‘‘(C) be available for backfilling critical positions left
    vacant during deployment of active duty Commissioned
    Corps members, as well as for deployment to respond to
    public health emergencies, both foreign and domestic; and


    ‘‘(D) be available for service assignment in isolated,
    hardship, and medically underserved communities (as
    defined in section 799B) to improve access to health services.


    H. R. 3590—497
    ‘‘(d) FUNDING.—For the purpose of carrying out the duties and
    responsibilities of the Commissioned Corps under this section, there
    are authorized to be appropriated $5,000,000 for each of fiscal
    years 2010 through 2014 for recruitment and training and
    $12,500,000 for each of fiscal years 2010 through 2014 for the
    Ready Reserve Corps.’’.
    H. R. 3590—496SEC. 5210. ESTABLISHING A READY RESERVE CORPS.

    Section 203 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C. 204)is amended to read as follows:

    ‘‘SEC. 203. COMMISSIONED CORPS AND READY RESERVE CORPS.‘‘

    (a) ESTABLISHMENT.—

    ‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—There shall be in the Service a commissionedRegular Corps and a Ready Reserve Corps for servicein time of national emergency.‘‘

    (2) REQUIREMENT.—All commissioned officers shall be citizensof the United States and shall be appointed without regardto the civil-service laws and compensated without regard tothe Classification Act of 1923, as amended.‘‘

    (3) APPOINTMENT.—Commissioned officers of the ReadyReserve Corps shall be appointed by the President and commissionedofficers of the Regular Corps shall be appointed bythe President with the advice and consent of the Senate.‘‘

    (4) ACTIVE DUTY.—Commissioned officers of the ReadyReserve Corps shall at all times be subject to call to activeduty by the Surgeon General, including active duty for thepurpose of training.‘‘

    (5) WARRANT OFFICERS.—Warrant officers may beappointed to the Service for the purpose of providing supportto the health and delivery systems maintained by the Serviceand any warrant officer appointed to the Service shall be consideredfor purposes of this Act and title 37, United States Code,to be a commissioned officer within the Commissioned Corpsof the Service.‘‘

    (b) ASSIMILATING RESERVE CORP OFFICERS INTO THE REGULARCORPS.—Effective on the date of enactment of the Patient Protectionand Affordable Care Act, all individuals classified as officers inthe Reserve Corps under this section (as such section existed onthe day before the date of enactment of such Act) and servingon active duty shall be deemed to be commissioned officers ofthe Regular Corps.‘‘

    (c) PURPOSE AND USE OF READY RESEARCH.—‘‘

    (1) PURPOSE.—The purpose of the Ready Reserve Corpsis to fulfill the need to have additional Commissioned Corpspersonnel available on short notice (similar to the uniformedservice’s reserve program) to assist regular CommissionedCorps personnel to meet both routine public health and emergencyresponse missions.‘‘

    (2) USES.—The Ready Reserve Corps shall—‘‘

    (A) participate in routine training to meet the generaland specific needs of the Commissioned Corps;‘‘

    (B) be available and ready for involuntary calls toactive duty during national emergencies and public healthcrises, similar to the uniformed service reserve personnel;‘‘

    (C) be available for backfilling critical positions leftvacant during deployment of active duty CommissionedCorps members, as well as for deployment to respond topublic health emergencies, both foreign and domestic; and‘‘

    (D) be available for service assignment in isolated,hardship, and medically underserved communities (asdefined in section 799B) to improve access to health services.H. R. 3590—497‘‘

    (d) FUNDING.—For the purpose of carrying out the duties andresponsibilities of the Commissioned Corps under this section, thereare authorized to be appropriated $5,000,000 for each of fiscalyears 2010 through 2014 for recruitment and training and$12,500,000 for each of fiscal years 2010 through 2014 for theReady Reserve Corps.’’.
    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    Show me where the government is guaranteeing healthcare? Does the government guarantee food? Does it provide to everyone? No on both counts, but it does insure that it won't poison you, that there are no monopolies (and thus price manipulation) on basic staples, and will help you out if you can't afford it. If you have a problem with the government's attempt to provide basic healthcare to all, then I'd expect you to have a problem with them regulating your food as well.
    What is Medicaid/Medicare?

    Medicare is a national social insurance program, administered by the U.S. federal government in 1965, that guarantees access to health insurance for Americans ages 65 and older and younger people with disabilities as well as people with end stage renal disease
    -- Wiki

    Medicaid is the United States health program for certain people and families with low incomes and resources. It is a means-tested program that is jointly funded by the state and federal governments, and is managed by the states.[1] People served by Medicaid are U.S. citizens or legal permanent residents, including low-income adults, their children, and people with certain disabilities. Poverty alone does not necessarily qualify someone for Medicaid. Medicaid is the largest source of funding for medical and health-related services for people with limited income in the United States.
    -- Wiki

    I can go on and on but you see we already have government guaranteed healthcare with the two above programs...Obamacare is just another program that expands guarantees via regulations on the insurance industry.

    Oh by the way, wait until employers drop health insurance from their benefit packages because why pay for employees health insurance when they can just go get on the Obamacare train.. Wait until health insurance companies fold up because of the excessive regulation.

    Eventually, everyone will be on the dole --- which is why all the elitists in DC are so happy about this.

    [/QUOTE]Using your proverb, the insurance and healthcare industries have the money, which means that they must have the power. Seems to be true in this case as they've done a great job of convincing many Americans that healthcare reform is akin to communism and that our way of life will come to an abrupt end. And it's only a "tax" if you refuse to get healthcare coverage. Only fair I'd say since if you don't have coverage and you get hurt or sick, you'll end up in an ER and the rest of the taxpaying public will pay your bill, which is what is happening now with our current system. Ironic as many of those that hate this legislation also bemoan that fact that so many people use ERs without paying...[/QUOTE]

    Why can a person use an Emergency Room without paying? Answer: The Government requires hospitals to treat you when you go to the ER regardless of your ability to pay. No charge for that lesson either.

    I think you need education on Communism? Communism defined by Webster is:

    1a : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
    2capitalized a : a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics b : a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production c : a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably d : communist systems collectively
    Obamacare fits that pretty darn well doesn't it? The Government collects everyone's money which puts it in a common coffer and makes them available to those as needed. Since healthcare is a major part of our economy, and the Government distributes those goods equitably - that also fits under that definition.

    So yes -- it is communism.

    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    BTW, "government" isn't some singular malevolent entity with a desire to screw you over. It's people, many of whom are your neighbors and friends, working just like you are and hoping for the same quality of life that you want. I don't work in the government sector, but I have friends that do. They run the gamut from seasonal custodians for the USFS to military personnel, to policy analysts in DC. Some are conservative, some are liberal, most are in between and they are all good people. Are they as evil, uncaring and clueless as you make them out to be?
    So you are saying there is no such thing as corruption? You cannot seriously come on here and tell everyone that there is no corruption in government? I am not saying every person that works for the government is a crook but I am saying there are people that work for the government that are crooks.

    This is what one of the founding fathers had to say about Government - these are the guys that orchestrated our government in the first place.

    Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamities is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer! Government, like dress, is the badge of lost innocence; the palaces of kings are built on the ruins of the bowers of paradise. For were the impulses of conscience clear, uniform, and irresistibly obeyed, man would need no other lawgiver; but that not being the case, he finds it necessary to surrender up a part of his property to furnish means for the protection of the rest; and this he is induced to do by the same prudence which in every other case advises him out of two evils to choose the least. Wherefore, security being the true design and end of government, it unanswerably follows that whatever form thereof appears most likely to ensure it to us, with the least expense and greatest benefit, is preferable to all others.
    – Thomas Paine (Common Sense, 1776)
    Last edited by Lawson Raider; 06-29-2012 at 02:45 PM.
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    There are so many fallacies, mis-conceptions, mis-representations, stereotypes and right-wing Limbaugh talking points in your diatribe, that I have neither the will or time to bother responding. It's apparent that it wouldn't make any kind of difference if I did as you are intractable in your fear and distrust of our society, despite the the high quality of life that you enjoy in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mykel View Post
    What gets me is that Obamacare is just Romneycare in another colour.
    Why is it when the Repubs do it it is ok - ie Romney in Mass.
    But when the Dems do it - the Repubs come in in force against it like it was the work of the Devil. Does that mean that Romney is the Devil?

    Confused in Canada?!?!?!?!

    michael
    That is because Obama and Romney are social liberals. Right now, Romney is riding the wave of angry conservatives as he knows it is his best way to win.

    I can guarantee you if Romney wins in November, he will either not repeal Obamacare or he'll water it down in a way that placates the angry conservatives but leaves the door open for anything taken out to be added back in later by another President.

    How can I say this? Look back 100 years when the progressive movement started...We are father progressive/socialist now than we were then. Sure, we have cycled left and right but the pendulum kept inching left centimeter by centimeter....

    I am telling everyone that there is no real difference between the Republicans or Democrats...they are both power hungry elitists...they both spend like drunken madmen - spend yours and mine hard earned money.
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  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    There are so many fallacies, mis-conceptions, mis-representations, stereotypes and right-wing Limbaugh talking points in your diatribe, that I have neither the will or time to bother responding. It's apparent that it would make any kind of difference if I did as you are intractable in your fear and distrust of our society, despite the the high quality of life that you enjoy in it.
    This is your inevitable response. I quoted Webster, resources from Wikipedia which isn't owned or published by Rush Limbaugh, quoted one of the founding fathers, and worked to give a detailed explanation of your statements and yet it is just diatribe.

    BTW - I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh. Haven't listened to him for quite some time.
    I don't use Strava. Don't need an application to tell me I am slow because I already know.

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