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    Leiphemimer is riding in the TDF right now. Is he gonna admit he doped while in the middle of a race?

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    I sincerely wish they'd leave the man alone. This is nothing more than some bureaucrat trying to take Lance down to make himself feel important. What crap.
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    If they want to get me to watch road racing then let them all dope it up and get rid of the damn radios! Then we would have some exciting stages, as of right now its just boring .....

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    honestly...who cares?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toff View Post
    If they want to get me to watch road racing then let them all dope it up and get rid of the damn radios! Then we would have some exciting stages, as of right now its just boring .....
    This.
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    ... your idea of technical may be much different than other peoples idea of technical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Univega777 View Post
    honestly...who cares?



    Given the number of threads about this subject there are plenty of people who do care. Lance is a cycling icon, and people care a great deal no matter which side of the subject they fall on.

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    I think everybody Lance competed against was doping and before Lance, Miguel Indurain probably doped his way to 5 tour wins! Why go after him now? Probably because everyone is done making their money off of his excellence & it's safe to talk about it now because NOW we're going to try & clean up a 20+year old money making mess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Given the number of threads about this subject there are plenty of people who do care. Lance is a cycling icon, and people care a great deal no matter which side of the subject they fall on.
    side of what subject? i could care less if he doped. the guy is old. old athletes start breaking down and cant perform like they use to. who cares if the geezer isnt going to be able to compete anymore. thats what happens when you get cancer and beat the **** out of yourself. i Loved Brett Favre but i didnt care that he got old and retired. cause he was fricken OLD! and thats what happens when you get old.

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    [/QUOTE]

    that's a moonlander, right? fun bike. doping by grown men in road racing..whatever. the use of the race radio is worse for the actual racing..hey, somebody tell me when i need to be attentive, ok? it has completely watered down the excitement and aggression and surprise of watching a race. roubaix and flanders are the only races i watch cuz they are the most unpredictable because of terrain.

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    I agree with the "no radios". What kind of crap is that? Hell, get rid of the stupid teams too. Let's find out who can..............RIDE! While we're at it, let's get France to widen their roads and cut some of the trees back at least a foot off the roads ...oh wait,this is a mountain bike forum. what was I thinking.
    Get rid of the stupid chase cars and half the motorcycles. I mean just because it's the "Tour de France" doesn't mean you can't make things safer. Can you imagine the furor over safety and liability if this race were in the U.S.? The media would be all over it. But since it's Fraaahhhns, it's OK.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Univega777 View Post
    side of what subject? i could care less if he doped. the guy is old. old athletes start breaking down and cant perform like they use to. who cares if the geezer isnt going to be able to compete anymore. thats what happens when you get cancer and beat the **** out of yourself. i Loved Brett Favre but i didnt care that he got old and retired. cause he was fricken OLD! and thats what happens when you get old.



    For someone who doesn't care, you sure post a lot of words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Univega777 View Post
    ...the guy is old. old athletes..., ...he got old and retired. ...he was fricken OLD! ...when you get old.
    So, I get the feeling that you are about 17 y/o?

    (edit) - Well, yes it appears that Mr. Univega is a few years younger than me, and that is fine, not a problem or issue. But, unfortunately (and not age related), if you look back at his posts, you'll find that he suffers from early onset troll-ism. It's not too late, he is young, and could turn himself around.
    Last edited by El Salt; 07-06-2012 at 08:03 AM.
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    I wager 6 Powerbar wrappers that he is closer to 15 y/o.

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    not a LA fanboy but i sincerely hope this has a broader purpose beyond him & positive effect in the end for road racing. I doubt it.

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    Last night on NBC sports they were speaking on this subject and talked about a press release given from USADA stating that all those names are just speculation, that no deals have been made, no agreements to testify, and that any speculation on the matter just causes false rumors and keeps the matter from being resolved quickly. Who knows what's true, what's cover up, and what's a shameful media attempt to boost ratings. All I know is I'd rather be riding than stuck at the office BSing about who's on drugs
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Salt View Post
    So, I get the feeling that you are about 17 y/o?
    For an old guy, he is still a threat to younger professional athletes. Afterall, he did just set a course record in his last pro 1/2 ironman a few months ago.

    Oh and sorry El Salt. I captured the wrong quote

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    Cheap accusations are one thing, but no one has been tried and convicted.

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    The notion that Armstrong, or any other pro road racer was or is clean is almost charmingly naive, kind of like believing in the tooth fairy. There hasn't been a single clean tour finisher in the last 30 years. All pro athletes use PEDs and cycling is dirtier than most sports. Even at a D1 college level I'd bet clean athletes are rare, and the ones that don't play much.

    Get over it. When there's that much money and fame available, there is always going to be incentive to cheat, so the guys that are the best at cheating are going to be the best at the sport.
    Pretending you don't believe it doesn't change anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by az.mtns View Post
    i wager 6 powerbar wrappers that he is closer to 15 y/o.

    this thread has survived 20 posts and no lockdown. Whoa!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    For an old guy, he is still a threat to professional athletes. Afterall, he did just set a course record in his last pro 1/2 ironman a few months ago.
    I'll second that! Hey, and talk about "old guys", look up Ned Overend if you want to see crazy fitness in an "old guy" that is primarily a MTBer.

    The Lance thing is a tuff cookie. I'm not really a roadie either, I do own a nice road bike, but it doesn't get much play. Anyway, when LA was winning all the TDFs, I was glued to the TV, web, and everything else. It was so inspiring to watch him [LA] drop people like they were standing still. My fave, and I think so many others, is "the look", where he played with, and destroyed Jan Ullrich on the L'Alpe d'Huez.

    But, now that the excitement of an American dominating the sport of cycling has subsided, I look back at that pure domination, knowing that so many of the other elite of that era have been caught or have confessed to doping. Knowing this, and remembering the way LA killed them all, I honestly no longer think he was "clean". Yes, as he likes to point out, never tested positive, and I can't explain that.

    It will truly be a sad day for cycling, and American cycling, if and when LA falls.
    Last edited by El Salt; 07-06-2012 at 10:20 AM. Reason: My [email protected] spelling!
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    Logic strongly suggests that he was doping--ie you have to somewhat suspend belief to think that it's possible to win 7 straight TDF w/o doping when virtually every main competitor was doping. It becomes worth chasing when you make 10s of millions off that success.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joules View Post
    The notion that Armstrong, or any other pro road racer was or is clean is almost charmingly naive, kind of like believing in the tooth fairy. There hasn't been a single clean tour finisher in the last 30 years. All pro athletes use PEDs and cycling is dirtier than most sports. Even at a D1 college level I'd bet clean athletes are rare, and the ones that don't play much.

    Get over it. When there's that much money and fame available, there is always going to be incentive to cheat, so the guys that are the best at cheating are going to be the best at the sport.
    Pretending you don't believe it doesn't change anything.
    Sad, but I'm sure all true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    For an old guy, he is still a threat to younger professional athletes. Afterall, he did just set a course record in his last pro 1/2 ironman a few months ago.

    Oh and sorry El Salt. I captured the wrong quote
    All good, I knew where you were going.
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    it takes 4-6 hours of riding to complete most of the stages. even if someone was doping i think the effects of the doping would wear off after a couple of hours of riding. lance armstrong won 7 tdf's. doesn't matter if he did dope or not. he still won 7 tdf's

    are they going to go after phelps gold medals next for doing dope?
    Phelps acknowledges photo showing Olympic swimming star smoking from marijuana pipe - ESPN

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    I think the TDF has lost a lot because they keep dragging this stuff up.

    Who wants to watch a race where they routinely expel tons of the main people? Just shut the thing down and call it quits.

    It's as bad as when they spent all their time smearing Graeme Obree. The world of pro cycling is probably the second least interesting in sports (following only PGA).
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    Quote Originally Posted by 29ernb View Post
    doesn't matter if he did dope or not. he still won 7 tdf's
    Well, no it sort of does matter. If everyone was doping, then no it would not matter. Not everyone was doping (I think?), because it is illegal. So for them, there was little chance to be competitive. If jumping in the team car, and being driven to the head of the field was something that you could do without being seen, some might do that too, but obviously that would be seen, unlike getting the needle in the team bus or at the hotel.

    Phelps? No, he was just stupid. To be in the lime light like he was, that was just a dumb move. No, they would not take his medals away, smoking weed from a bong never improved anyone's performance. Maybe in their own mind, but not in the "real" world.
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    i was just kidding about phelps. smoking weed would only make him slower and eat more bags of cheetos. but with him winning so many gold medals maybe other sports are getting away with doping too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Salt View Post
    Yes, as he likes to point out, never tested positive, and I can't explain that.
    We all know the French are still out to get Lance......

    Two ways to look at Lance's statement that he never tested positive. Either he never took performance enhancing drugs or doped, or he never tested positive for banned substances. Meaning he doped on something that wasn't on the banned substances list. So what if all those guys testify that Lance doped. He was either too smart to get caught or was taking some wonder drug that wasn't/isn't yet on the list of banned substances.

    IMHO it's really poor sportsmanship to testify against someone after the fact, after they withstood repeated testing that didn't yield any positive results. Those who are testifying will cause some serious damage to the sport. Let's face it, they're all "doping" to some degree, might not be banned substances but after the inhuman efforts day after day they get medical treatment for recovery, at least IV's and such. Sow where do you draw the line on what is performance enhancing or not?

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    Tours de France? Tell eem we already got one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuffink View Post


    Tours de France? Tell eem we already got one.
    Funniest, most apropos comment & photo yet! It's gotten that silly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 29ernb View Post
    i was just kidding about phelps. smoking weed would only make him slower and eat more bags of cheetos. but with him winning so many gold medals maybe other sports are getting away with doping too.
    I wouldn't doubt it, doping in other sports? H3ll, look at baseball. Football? You think (and I realize you know / think it is true here too) pro football isn't on the juice?

    Again, that is my point, and I think many others feel the same too. Let the sauce be legal, put it in the rule book, then it will be up to each athlete to decide. Yes, it may kill you in the long run (hey, look at what they now know about repeated head injury to FB players, look at boxers...), but it will be a choice you have to make. Take the TDF, no one says you have to go ride your bike and train for 8 - 10 - 12 hrs a day, but if you don't, there is no way you can compete.

    Phelps? Well, maybe its just my own foolishness, but I think if you are in the spot light (sports star, movie star, etc.), you do need to be aware of your standard of life. The reason you are where you are, is because you are good at something, AND people are willing to come watch ($$$) you do it. And, in the case of an Olympian, well the whole world is watching you.

    I guess I'm just naive to some things, and you'd think after all these years I'd have smartened up?
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Salt View Post
    So, I get the feeling that you are about 17 y/o?

    (edit) - Well, yes it appears that Mr. Univega is a few years younger than me, and that is fine, not a problem or issue. But, unfortunately (and not age related), if you look back at his posts, you'll find that he suffers from early onset troll-ism. It's not too late, he is young, and could turn himself around.
    actually im 27. and how i am i trolling? the heart and muscles all start a much steeper decline after age 35 to 40. big woop an old guy's bicycle career might be over. if you were a fan im sure you got your moneys worth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Salt View Post
    It was so inspiring to watch him [LA] drop people like they were standing still. My fave, and I think so many others, is "the look", where he played with, and destroyed Juan Ullrich on the L'Alpe d'Huez.
    Ahh, yes. Jan's lesser known Mexican cousin

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    Quote Originally Posted by j0hn View Post
    Ahh, yes. Jan's lesser known Mexican cousin
    Oh heck! That's what I get for typing too fast! I'd better fix that one!
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    i think it's a bunch of crap. and i think the bikers who are going to "testify" are doing it for their own fame.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by B-Mac View Post
    I sincerely wish they'd leave the man alone. This is nothing more than some bureaucrat trying to take Lance down to make himself feel important. What crap.
    QFT.

    + some revenge game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Salt View Post
    Well, no it sort of does matter. If everyone was doping, then no it would not matter.
    Well, it would sort of still matter, as people respond differently to doping and every kind of substance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 29ernb View Post
    it takes 4-6 hours of riding to complete most of the stages. even if someone was doping i think the effects of the doping would wear off after a couple of hours of riding. lance armstrong won 7 tdf's. doesn't matter if he did dope or not. he still won 7 tdf's

    are they going to go after phelps gold medals next for doing dope?
    Phelps acknowledges photo showing Olympic swimming star smoking from marijuana pipe - ESPN


    Now I see why 29ernb starts threads and only includes a link, not posting anything about his personal thoughts about the thread he starts

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    It seems that because Lance won so much they really want him. Seems that
    most everyone else doped also, but that doesn't seem to be a big deal.

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    I love watching the Tour. At least the two-hour daily recap. I ended a relationship with a gorgeous redhead because she wouldn't let me watch the recap...and I don't even have a road bike. Actually, it's the only sporting event I ever watch. Have no interest in football, baseball, or any other professional sport. None. Zero. I am completely asportic.

    I also don't care one iota about the lives, struggles, and stories of athletes including Lance Armstrong and am as sick of "Livestrong" and his beer commercials as I am about the doping question. The energy people put into their adulation and hate is amazing. Like all sports, cycling is just a "kid's game" performed by adults.

    Maybe I'll watch the Olympics this year

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    I love watching the Tour. At least the two-hour daily recap. I ended a relationship with a gorgeous redhead because she wouldn't let me watch the recap...and I don't even have a road bike.
    That's... an interesting order of priorities...
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    Eh, redheads are possessed by the Devil ,

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Eh, redheads are possessed by the Devil ,
    You have no idea.

  45. #45
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    I like the direction this thread is going, redheads.......devil.......Gillian Anderson......cardboard shorts.

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    Wait a minute. You lost me at cardboard shorts.
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    I see short attention span is alive and well...oh, cows!
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    Shazoooooo!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 29ernb View Post
    it takes 4-6 hours of riding to complete most of the stages. even if someone was doping i think the effects of the doping would wear off after a couple of hours of riding. lance armstrong won 7 tdf's. doesn't matter if he did dope or not. he still won 7 tdf's
    This is problem number 1. I'm starting to wonder if you A) even know what the term "doping" deals with, or B) if you know anything about it, even at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kiloman View Post
    We all know the French are still out to get Lance......

    Two ways to look at Lance's statement that he never tested positive. Either he never took performance enhancing drugs or doped, or he never tested positive for banned substances. Meaning he doped on something that wasn't on the banned substances list. So what if all those guys testify that Lance doped. He was either too smart to get caught or was taking some wonder drug that wasn't/isn't yet on the list of banned substances.

    IMHO it's really poor sportsmanship to testify against someone after the fact, after they withstood repeated testing that didn't yield any positive results. Those who are testifying will cause some serious damage to the sport. Let's face it, they're all "doping" to some degree, might not be banned substances but after the inhuman efforts day after day they get medical treatment for recovery, at least IV's and such. Sow where do you draw the line on what is performance enhancing or not?
    Lance did test positive.

    Google: Lance Tour of Switzerland 2001 EPO test coverup.
    also backdated TUE corticoid

    It's the doping and lying that damages the sport, not those trying to enforce the rules.

    If anyone really wants to educate themselvs a bit on this topic, as opposed to just parroting what is said in the mainstream media, here are a few links:

    Michael Anderson's Testimony On Lance Armstrong Doping

    Ashenden: Understanding USADA

    www.cyclingnews.presents ...

    Strock Speaks
    Un-named coach is a very well known coach out of Colorado Springs (yes, it is him, settlement was sealed to protect his image)

    Anti-Doping Officials Step Up Cycling Oversight - WSJ.com



    and if you really have some time on your hands:

    From Lance to Landis: Inside the American Doping Controversy at the Tour De ... - David Walsh - Google Books

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    Quote Originally Posted by FLMike View Post


    Now I see why 29ernb starts threads and only includes a link, not posting anything about his personal thoughts about the thread he starts
    you did not read all the posts, you don't know what you are talking about

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    Quote Originally Posted by hardtail05 View Post
    Lance did test positive.

    Google: Lance Tour of Switzerland 2001 EPO test coverup.
    also backdated TUE corticoid
    Who cares? If you are so obsessed with investigating past TDF races then I'm sure you would also know that most racers dope like there's no tomorrow.

    The French just want to make it look like Lance was the only one who did it because they are frustrated that an American has put their POS country to shame 7 times in a row.

    The French despise Americans with a passion. Hell, if you go to France and say you're American they will treat you like dirt. I'm serious, France can go to Hell. They are a rude obnoxious and arrogant country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark! View Post
    This is problem number 1. I'm starting to wonder if you A) even know what the term "doping" deals with, or B) if you know anything about it, even at all.
    i know what bicyclist have done for doping. blood transfusions, performance enhancing drugs etc..

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    Quote Originally Posted by 29ernb View Post
    you did not read all the posts, you don't know what you are talking about
    Yes, thats it.. I dont know what im talking about..

    What I find amazing is all those Body Builders that dope... 4 hours later when the dope has wore off theyre completely weak and unable to lift any kind of weight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FLMike View Post
    Yes, thats it.. I dont know what im talking about..

    What I find amazing is all those Body Builders that dope... 4 hours later when the dope has wore off theyre completely weak and unable to lift any kind of weight.
    LOL! Yup, oh and Clemens, a few hours before the game, dope, a few hours after the game, dude can't throw 55.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 29ernb View Post
    i know what bicyclist have done for doping. blood transfusions, performance enhancing drugs etc..
    No, you don't. If you think that a PED wears off in a few hours, you know nothing of anything relatively remotely close to PED's and what they are, and what they do. One does not inject something a few minutes before a race, or competition of any sort, and reap the rewards of said injection.

    The procedure of leveling out dosages, blood panels, cycling off, and cycling on said PED's takes months, if not years of research and study to get it right. You've clearly read an article, and throw around a few key terms, yet know nothing of the nature of PED's. Congrats on being an interwebz expert.

  57. #57
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    Be nice to the noobs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Addict View Post
    Who cares? If you are so obsessed with investigating past TDF races then I'm sure you would also know that most racers dope like there's no tomorrow.

    The French just want to make it look like Lance was the only one who did it because they are frustrated that an American has put their POS country to shame 7 times in a row.

    The French despise Americans with a passion. Hell, if you go to France and say you're American they will treat you like dirt. I'm serious, France can go to Hell. They are a rude obnoxious and arrogant country.
    Who cares? Anyone who truly cares about the sport..

    Suffice it to say I am not obsessed, but probably more connected to road biking than many on this thread. I am involved in the sport and care about the sport.

    Interesting how emotional (angry) you get about France. Would it make you feel better to know that this is not just about Lance or just about France? There are others implicated: manager (Belgian), doctor (Italian), and trainer (Spanish)- it's pretty international.

    Would it make you feel better that an American (Dave Weins) was cheated out of a win in a mountain bike race held on American soil (Leadville 100) by Lance?

    It's not so simple.

    Note that all the published witnesses are American and there is no French connection. The US in USADA stands for United States, just as a reminder. As you probably know, one of the witnesses is George Hincapie, former National champ and Lance's right-hand man and the one who was with him for every one of the seven TDF wins. Would it make you feel better that Hincapie married a French model he met during the TDF (after she was done spitting in his face, of course)?

    If you really want to know the truth about the French, they loved Lance in the beginning. But, that is all besides the point. Reality can suck sometimes. It is amazing how angry people get when they are confronted by facts that they don't like. But reality is still reality.
    The facts will come out soon enough. This is actually a good thing.

    I know some strong kids who race locally on the road and one has actually been to Europe. If this thing succeeds, it means guys like him will have less a chance of being forced to dope just to make it in road biking.

    I suggest you read the story of Greg Strock again (assuming you did read it, in the first place). Those who follow this stuff know who the un-named coach is in that article and if you can put 2 & 2 together, you would figure it out pretty quickly- (Hint: is linked directly to Lance Armstrong, runs a very successful coaching company in Colorado Springs, now has a large client base of yuppie type riders, did some commentary during TDF on Versus, also is connected to the Leadville 100). The settlement terms of the case protected his identity, maybe you should wonder why? This $%^& runs soo deep right here in Colorado, sigh....

    I suggest people enjoy the sport for what it is and don't get too caught up on one rider or one nationality. It's still a great sport and this cleansing is long overdue. No, it won't solve all of cycling's problems, but it is a necessarily important step in that direction.
    Last edited by hardtail05; 07-07-2012 at 09:01 PM.

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    I don't like Lance Armstrong, and it's not just because he used EPO to win bike races. He isn't a person with a lot of morals. The cancer society and his lying to all those cancer patients. That's sick and twisted for someone to benefit and become rich by tricking them to believe in him when all along he was using drugs to win, not his own ability.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    I don't like Lance Armstrong, and it's not just because he used EPO to win bike races. He isn't a person with a lot of morals. The cancer society and his lying to all those cancer patients. That's sick and twisted for someone to benefit and become rich by tricking them to believe in him when all along he was using drugs to win, not his own ability.
    Lance is personally tricking people that have cancer into giving him money? IMO, beating cancer like he did and returning to win 7 tours doped to the gills is still pretty amazing though right? I mean considering...

    I could be totally wrong here, but my opinion is that professional cycling is much like professional bodybuilding in that nearly all top contenders are doped. Still, the hardest working guy with the best genetics etc wins.

    That was Lance imo. My biggest concern really is that perhaps Lance had access to more effective dope and therefore perhaps it was not really a level playing field.

    In a perfect world, none of them would dope. It sucks. I hope it goes away, but I am not holding my breath.

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    It wasn't a level playing field. Some of the links in the Armstrong threads discuss the particular drugs he has used and the results. What most overlook is that not every fit rider gains the same advantage. Lance gained 10% more output, while most experienced 1-2%. No undoped rider has ever been 10% better than the entire field. Nobody is born with that genetic advantage.

    But to address the OP's question; Is Lance Armstrong Finished?

    Of course not. He is a very wealthy man. He is adored by people will never judge him for the cheating, and will admire him as a hero even if he admits his illegal drug use. He has friends in hollywood. He is a celebrity and dates celebrities. He is fit and young enough to enjoy traveling the world and living the high life (no pun intended). He lives the life of a rock star. He has money to burn to defend his image using high paid lawyers. He might not really care at this point, what anyone says. If Johan throws him under the bus, along with Dr. Ferrari, he might not care either. He can compete in mountain bike races without being tested or risk being banned. He might be back competing in Triathlons if he is successful fighting the current allegations. His life is better than 99.9% of the rest of us, if you don't factor in how he'll fare when he enters eternity. Lance is far from finished living his good life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hardtail05 View Post


    I know some strong kids who race locally on the road and one has actually been to Europe. If this thing succeeds, it means guys like him will have less a chance of being forced to dope just to make it in road biking.
    I agree with a lot of what you said, but you can't be ^that^ naive. If Lance get's "convicted" by the US Anti-Doping agency less pros will dope? At that level everyone is looking for an edge. It has nothing to do with Lance Armstrong getting convicted 10 years after the fact.

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    I really hope these allegations leveled by USADA are not true. Beating cancer and winning 7 TDFs is an incredible story that is inspirational to a lot of people in and outside of cycling. If the allegations are proven to be true I think the biggest casualty could be the Livestrong foundation and his cancer awareness campaign.

    An earlier poster stated that he didn't like Armstrong because he became rich by somehow fooling cancer patients into giving him money. That's not how he became wealthy; presumably he got rich by entering into lucrative endorsements and other ventures associated with his celebrity.

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    His approximate $2,000,000 annual salary when he was still in the peleton probably helped a little too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whodaphuck View Post
    His approximate $2,000,000 annual salary when he was still in the peleton probably helped a little too.
    That's a good start!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joules View Post
    The notion that Armstrong, or any other pro road racer was or is clean is almost charmingly naive, kind of like believing in the tooth fairy. There hasn't been a single clean tour finisher in the last 30 years. All pro athletes use PEDs and cycling is dirtier than most sports. Even at a D1 college level I'd bet clean athletes are rare, and the ones that don't play much.

    Get over it. When there's that much money and fame available, there is always going to be incentive to cheat, so the guys that are the best at cheating are going to be the best at the sport.
    Pretending you don't believe it doesn't change anything.
    Exactly! My wife asked me if I think he dopes, I said they all do it's just a matter of who gets caught. The playing field is level so who cares?

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    It's always something. These guys, like many natural bodybuilders, are always looking for that edge without getting caught. They work close with research labs in determining that next "legal" substance, and then once the USADA catches wind of it, it gets banned. Take DMAA for instance, it was the main NO in jack3d, the USADA is now investigating the substance and it will likely be banned, hence why many supplement companies are taking it out before the ban happens, but you can still buy it in pure form.

    Short answer, even with 99% of the substances banned, the guys with money will always be on the look out for that 1% of PED's that haven't been banned yet. There will always be doping in pro sports.

  68. #68
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    The other thing is that there is no proof that all the riders that do the races are on drugs. There is proof that Lance and his team were on drugs. So, they should give the Tour win to the next placed rider, and if he gets busted like Armstrong, then they castrate him too.

    Livestrong is a farce marketing tool aimed at helping Lance. Even the president says that if Armstrong is shown to have defrauded people and took drugs, theywill support him. That's wrong. Cheaters never win and winners never cheat. Armstrong and Livestrong are not winners.

    Roger Clemens had one witness that testified against him. With Armstrong, he has over 10. I read that Armstrong's defense will be like that of Jerry Sandsky, the convicted child molester. Sandusky also had multiple witnesses testify against him, and he tried to smear and discredit all of them stating the same stuff about the investigation being a witch hunt and that the witnesses had axes to grind and were just wanting money. That's is the same as Lance's argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    The other thing is that there is no proof that all the riders that do the races are on drugs.
    False. In world level competitive cycling you have to dope to be competitive.

    There is proof that Lance and his team were on drugs. So, they should give the Tour win to the next placed rider, and if he gets busted like Armstrong, then they castrate him too.
    They then should take the title from all winners the past 15-20 years.

    Livestrong is a farce marketing tool aimed at helping Lance. Even the president says that if Armstrong is shown to have defrauded people and took drugs, theywill support him. That's wrong. Cheaters never win and winners never cheat. Armstrong and Livestrong are not winners.
    None of them are cheating if they're all doping. Cheating implies an unfair advantage. If everyone else is doing it, you're just keeping up if you do it. You're at home on the sofa if you don't.

    This is far from a perfect world. Idealistic views of world class sports are false, empty dreams. More professional and Olympic athletes use PEDs because the other top tier athletes do. I wish sports were pure and that none of them used PEDs but it just ain't so.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    The other thing is that there is no proof that all the riders that do the races are on drugs. There is proof that Lance and his team were on drugs. So, they should give the Tour win to the next placed rider, and if he gets busted like Armstrong, then they castrate him too.

    Livestrong is a farce marketing tool aimed at helping Lance. Even the president says that if Armstrong is shown to have defrauded people and took drugs, theywill support him. That's wrong. Cheaters never win and winners never cheat. Armstrong and Livestrong are not winners.

    Roger Clemens had one witness that testified against him. With Armstrong, he has over 10. I read that Armstrong's defense will be like that of Jerry Sandsky, the convicted child molester. Sandusky also had multiple witnesses testify against him, and he tried to smear and discredit all of them stating the same stuff about the investigation being a witch hunt and that the witnesses had axes to grind and were just wanting money. That's is the same as Lance's argument.
    Having to guess, what % of the TdF peloton today has doped? Also, just for fun, lets pretend that Lance ended up 4th place in the TdF 7 times and that the Livestrong Foundation never existed. Would you dislike him today?

    I ask because I am not sure how it would change my views...

    I am not an LA fan so much myself. Just kind of meh about him at this point...

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    Lance Armstrong sues doping agency to block charges - News | FOX Sports on MSN

    quote from article "10 former teammates and associates are willing to testify against him and that it has blood samples from 2009-2010 that are ''fully consistent'' with doping. they have the proof that he did doping.

    i still think it takes a great athlete, a lot of training, nutrition, hyration, and a great team to win the tour de france and not doping. it may give an athlete an advantage but no other sport takes over 20 days to complete and covers close to 3491.9km( 2120miles). not to mention bike crashes and other riders taking other riders out of the race, rabid fans that don't give riders enough space, and barbed wire fences.

    lance will always be able to say that he won 7 tdf's because he is a great athlete . enough said

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    Doping or not, it definitely takes a special kind of athlete to compete in cycling, especially the TDF. I just don't see what the big deal is about doping. They "all" do it. NFL players shoot roids to compete in their sport. MLB was made popular by home run kings on roids. It's in a lot of pro sports. As long as we are all aware of that, who cares. If those athletes are willing to risk the downsides of taking performance enhancing drugs, so be it. We just need to make sure we treat every athlete in a sport the same. Either we hold them ALL to the same standard or do away with banned substances. It's hard to declare a true winner if we allow some to enhance yet penalize others.

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    Regarding baseball players, you can take all the steroids you want and still never make contact with the ball. Yes, it helps the best get better, but the majority of what the accomplish is natural talent.

    That said, if the rewards for being a good athlete are so great that they're willing to harm their bodies to succeed... perhaps the problem lies not with the the athletes, but the public for supporting the environment they compete in.

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    its called the joy of riding,, not the misery and vindictive behavior of losing

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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    Also, just for fun, lets pretend that Lance ended up 4th place in the TdF 7 times and that the Livestrong Foundation never existed. Would you dislike him today?
    Well there's an interesting question. A couple of possibilities;

    1) Without the public goodwill towards the Lance Armstrong Foundation (the actual name of the organization), Armstrong and his business associates would probably not have set up a large scale commercial venture under the name livestrong.com that leverages the Livestrong trade name, but is actually a commercial for-profit venture that generates no benefit toward the LAF. Try google search for "livestrong" and see what comes up ranked #1, the .org LAF web site or the .com commercial web site that enriches Armstrong and his associates. Apparently, the .com web site attracts more hits than the .org web site (although the .com does have a small text link to try to help people find the .org web site). if Armstrong wasn't trying to leverage the Livestrong branding for his own commercial gain, why would they run the whole .com setup and siphon web hits and eyeballs away from the .org LAF?

    2) If the LAF didn't exist, more money might be donated toward other organizations that have a research component to their efforts, which the LAF does not (no current funding or grants from LAF toward cancer research for several years now). Of course awareness programs and survivor support are wonderful resources also that are needed in the world, what happens when the LAF is such a draw for cancer-related donations that funding toward other not-for-profit cancer agencies that have a reseach component starts to dry up?

    Lots of good works for society being done by LAF, but it's not as clear cut as it might seem on the surface, especially with respect to Armstrong's personal gain from the whole Livestrong phenomenon (see item 1 above).

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    While it's still up for play with option to refile within 20 days, the federal judge (based in his own Austin, TX) slapped LA's legal team down pretty badly in his written response, and LAs current application for a restraining order has been dismissed.

    Selected excerpts below;

    ----------------------------------------------

    "Ultimately, what Rule 8 demands is a short and plain statement of detailed facts, not a mechanical recital of boilerplate allegations, nor as is more relevant here a lengthy and bitter polemic against the named defendants."

    "Worse, the bulk of these paragraphs contain "allegations" that are wholly irrelevant to Armstrong's claims and which, the Court must presume, were included solely to increase media coverage of this case, and to incite public opinion against Defendants. See, e.g., Compl. [#1] 10 ("USADA's kangaroo court proceeding would violate due process even if USADA had jurisdiction to pursue its charges against Mr. Armstrong.")."

    "This Court is not inclined to indulge Armstrong's desire for publicity, self-aggrandizement, or vilification of Defendants, by sifting through eighty mostly unnecessary pages in search of the few kernels of factual material relevant to his claims."

    "Contrary to Armstrong's apparent belief, pleadings filed in the United States District Courts are not press releases, internet blogs, or pieces of investigative journalism. All parties, and their lawyers, are expected to comply with the rules of this Court, and face potential sanctions if they do not."

  77. #77
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    Wow! This just came up on CNN. Lance Armstrong filed a lawsuit against USADA recently and it totally backfired on him. The judge threw the lawsuit out and then scolded Armstrong and his attorneys for filing the frivolous lawsuit. The judge says the lawsuit had no basis, and was filed with wording to stir up hostility against USADA. In addition, the over 80 pages were full of self-aggrandizement and vilification of other people that were irrelevant to Armstrong's claims.

    OUCH! That's gotta hurt! It's good though to see Armstrong called out on his lying.

    CNN has the article on their home page
    Judge tosses Armstrong suit against anti-doping agency - CNN.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by nwbikur View Post
    I really hope these allegations leveled by USADA are not true. Beating cancer and winning 7 TDFs is an incredible story that is inspirational to a lot of people in and outside of cycling. If the allegations are proven to be true I think the biggest casualty could be the Livestrong foundation and his cancer awareness campaign.

    An earlier poster stated that he didn't like Armstrong because he became rich by somehow fooling cancer patients into giving him money. That's not how he became wealthy; presumably he got rich by entering into lucrative endorsements and other ventures associated with his celebrity.
    You are correct and this is sad. However, there are other cancer charities out there. Livestrong does not actually fund cancer research, but now only "cancer awareness" (as if we were not aware of it already).

    And to those who think of Lance as some kind of hero, take it from someone who knew him for years and read this, if you have the time
    Michael Anderson's Testimony On Lance Armstrong Doping

    Some very very interesting stuff in there.... Cheryl Crowe, Dr Ferrari, dodging testers, threats, etc. Would make a great movie
    Last edited by hardtail05; 07-09-2012 at 08:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenny7 View Post
    I agree with a lot of what you said, but you can't be ^that^ naive. If Lance get's "convicted" by the US Anti-Doping agency less pros will dope? At that level everyone is looking for an edge. It has nothing to do with Lance Armstrong getting convicted 10 years after the fact.
    Well, a liberal use of the word "maybe" but yes, you are probably correct. It cannot hurt, though...

    If you find the info on the Tour of Switzerland EPO positive that was covered up, you may realize that the majority of riders doping does NOT equal a level playing field. Not all doping regimes are comparable, but more importantly, not all the riders are able to buy their way out of a doping sanction. This is a case of the UCI covering for the "goose that laid the golden egg".

    If Lance had nothing to hide, he would have taken USADA up on their offer to come in and testify as the others did. Everyone was offered the same thing and Lance was the only one who refused. His problem is that he built his whole brand on being clean and a hero and he has made a %^&*# load of money on this and he has backed himself into a corner.


    Read more about the "500" tests here

    and read here about French nationalism/favoritism related to bike racing & doping
    Last edited by hardtail05; 07-11-2012 at 05:09 PM. Reason: add more info

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    Quote Originally Posted by Univega777 View Post
    honestly...who cares?
    I would say most fans of road cycling care

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    The judge basically said that Lance was using the court system for his own propaganda and not even addressing a relevant complaint. I wish Armstrong would just stop wasting taxpayer's money by trying to tie this up in the courts instead of playing by the rules and going through the due process that all athletes get. It's sickening to see him subvert the system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crewjones View Post
    I would say most fans of road cycling care
    I've been racing on and off since the mid 90s. The cyclists (people from all walks of life) I have talked to, don't care.
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    How is Armstrong wasting tax dollars by defending his own name, and the general reputation of his company which raises millions a year for cancer research and other assorted causes all geared towards the general welfare of people across the country ? If anyone is wasting tax dollars it is all the angry liberal eurotrash who are just pissed off that Armstrong has embarrassed them all by robbing them of their domination of a sport that they have "owned" since its inception. If he did use, I don't really care, he was able to pass every single drug test ever administered additionally he is still the most tested athlete of all time. If you can pass that bar, then you have my vote of confidence. And again, look at the sport in general, the whole lot of them all dope, So yes I also DO NOT care. cue the subscription to thread !
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    Oh one more thing. The fact that Armstrong filed an 80 pg complaint does not show that he LOST his case. That was a carefully thought out Legal maneuver thought up by some of the best attorney's in the country to allow the case to get significant coverage before moving forward. He knew, his attorneys new exactly how that overzealous complaint would be received by the court. But he could give a ****. As he should, these people need to move on.
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    I can't believe i wasted 1 minute of my life indulging the content of this complaint. See excerpt on how Armstrong paid for her flight but didn't buy her a first class ticket even though she was pregnant. OMG the suffering, That murderous monster ! Or how armstrong would shower and get a massage as she prepared meals..,, seriously .. This country is so backwards what a joke
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    I dunno about anyone else, but you'd have to dope me to the eyeballs to wanna sit on a road bike and pedal for that frigg*n long, every day for that length of time... I guess if you threw in 2 mill and some babes it could soften the blow... oh, maybe throw in some blow...
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    Quote Originally Posted by dickeydoo View Post
    I've been racing on and off since the mid 90s. The cyclists (people from all walks of life) I have talked to, don't care.
    And I'm a fan of professional cycling, and I DO care.

    So the athletes that race don't think fans deserve clean races? They don't want clean races?

    The Federal investigation delt with crimes associated with using the drugs. Tax dollars used to buy and distribute them, lying under oath, payoffs, other crimes related to using drugs. They did not concern themselves with the actual drug use.

    The USADA investigatin is specific to showing how Lance was using banned substances. Compelling many within his inner circle to discuss what they know and what they saw.

    It may be true that some cyclists compete with others who do not care. It may be part of the reason it is so hard to get people to testify. Winning at any cost may be considered fair play to some. To many of us, if not most of us, we want athlete to win fairly. If they cheated to win, we want them to admit to it, so they don't compound the negative feelings of fans by being know as both a liar and a cheat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shulman1144 View Post
    ... If anyone is wasting tax dollars it is all the angry liberal eurotrash who are just pissed off that Armstrong has embarrassed them all by robbing them of their domination of a sport that they have "owned" since its inception...
    Tell me about it. The cheese eating surrender monkeys have infiltrated the USADA. I've never forgiven them for subverting the neuf/onze enquiry, and packing the high court bench for Roe v Wade. Still, Jean-Pierre "Earl" Warren did a good snow job when that angry liberal got gunned down in Dealey Plaza.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shulman1144 View Post
    How is Armstrong wasting tax dollars by defending his own name, and the general reputation of his company which raises millions a year for cancer research and other assorted causes all geared towards the general welfare of people across the country ? If anyone is wasting tax dollars it is all the angry liberal eurotrash who are just pissed off that Armstrong has embarrassed them all by robbing them of their domination of a sport that they have "owned" since its inception. If he did use, I don't really care, he was able to pass every single drug test ever administered additionally he is still the most tested athlete of all time. If you can pass that bar, then you have my vote of confidence. And again, look at the sport in general, the whole lot of them all dope, So yes I also DO NOT care. cue the subscription to thread !
    Interesting line of thought. You seem to care that he passed a number of tests and care that his foundation defends his reputation, and you seem concerned that the French are behind these accusations, yet you repeat that you do not care if he cheated and lied to become a winner, enriched by doping, famous because of cheating, thus allowing him to become a celebrity and raise lots of money for something with his name on it.

    Why care about how someone achieved greatness? There should be no standard of fair play? Or if you pass multiple tests, because you went and paid half a million dollars to Dr. Ferrari, the most famous doping expert in cycling, to help you avoid detection.

    Do you also not care if Hincape testifies against Lance? How about Johan? How about another 8-10 close riding partners and teammates? You don't care. Gonna repeat the passing multiple test defense all the way to the end?

    How do you account for Marion Jones? She may be the most tested world champion track runner of all time. Tested for over a decade. Not one bad test. So she was innocent of doping, according to your standard, right? Were the French out to get her? No. USADA is not run by the French. The Government agencies investigating her for years were U.S. agencies, just like with Lance. Her coach ratted her out. He even turned a syringe over to USADA, with undetectable drugs in it, that he said he was injecting into her. Her own checks were found during a raid of BALCO. She still denied using drugs. Her fans still shouted over and over she passed the tests. Ultimately, they got her on check fraud, and made a deal to shorten her sentence if she made a full confession. I suppose there will be some hard core fans that will cling to those passed tests and state she was running clean and made up the confession just to avoid more jail time. Some fans are like that, arn't they?

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    I guess so If others believe that presumption is the mother of truth. I always err on the side of lifelong teammates and coaches who end up ultimately turning in their "beloved" teammates with HARD evidence. And I also always believe a leveraged confession. I had to give a leveraged confession myself recently. I got pulled over in a friends vehicle in NYS, and the police took me in for DWI, I blew a 0.0 BAC, I hadn't smoked in over 8 hours, I had two options in court, fight the DWI in trial at a risk of 1 year in jail, risking the possibility of the urine test coming back positive despite the time between the stop and providing urine. Or plead guilty to the DWI and take 3 years of probation and a misdemeanor . In NY there are no more DUI's or DWAI's or any other type of lesser derivative of the charge. The cops were specifically looking for the owner of the vehicle, conducted a full search of the vehicle discovering a small amount of marijuana >1 gram, and a pipe, as well as a broken bong in the trunk. They also discovered a small pocket knife that had a loose assembly which they called a gravity knife and also charged me with criminal possession of a weapon. The plea got rid of everything except the DWI charge, If I would have went to trial and beat the DWI they would have slammed me on the other charges. So if you don't think this identical type of scenario plays out at higher levels you are insane. In a perfect world with perfect people your logic almost applies. This is a million variable situation, occurring over many decades, and to try to define it with your moral stamp of approval is nothing short of absurd. But that's just my opinion and in no way is it fact, or to be considered above your own.

    2 cents, +1
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    Quote Originally Posted by shulman1144 View Post
    I guess so If others believe that presumption is the mother of truth. I always err on the side of lifelong teammates and coaches who end up ultimately turning in their "beloved" teammates with HARD evidence. And I also always believe a leveraged confession. I had to give a leveraged confession myself recently. I got pulled over in a friends vehicle in NYS, and the police took me in for DWI, I blew a 0.0 BAC, I hadn't smoked in over 8 hours, I had two options in court, fight the DWI in trial at a risk of 1 year in jail, risking the possibility of the urine test coming back positive despite the time between the stop and providing urine. Or plead guilty to the DWI and take 3 years of probation and a misdemeanor . In NY there are no more DUI's or DWAI's or any other type of lesser derivative of the charge. The cops were specifically looking for the owner of the vehicle, conducted a full search of the vehicle discovering a small amount of marijuana >1 gram, and a pipe, as well as a broken bong in the trunk. They also discovered a small pocket knife that had a loose assembly which they called a gravity knife and also charged me with criminal possession of a weapon. The plea got rid of everything except the DWI charge, If I would have went to trial and beat the DWI they would have slammed me on the other charges. So if you don't think this identical type of scenario plays out at higher levels you are insane. In a perfect world with perfect people your logic almost applies. This is a million variable situation, occurring over many decades, and to try to define it with your moral stamp of approval is nothing short of absurd. But that's just my opinion and in no way is it fact, or to be considered above your own.

    2 cents, +1
    Man, I feel your pain. The NYPD is full of French. Known fact.

    u r a mutt lol
    Last edited by nuffink; 08-09-2012 at 01:38 PM.

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    I wish it had been the NYPD,,, i would have strolled away from that stop BELIEVE IT. I got nailed by Nassau County (long island) BSO (Bureau of Special Operations) These guys are the "fund-raising" are of Nassau's PD,, unfortunately for me I fell into there sweet spot,, and i've definitely raised alot of funds for them since.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shulman1144 View Post
    How is Armstrong wasting tax dollars by defending his own name, and the general reputation of his company which raises millions a year for cancer research and other assorted causes all geared towards the general welfare of people across the country ? If anyone is wasting tax dollars it is all the angry liberal eurotrash who are just pissed off that Armstrong has embarrassed them all by robbing them of their domination of a sport that they have "owned" since its inception. If he did use, I don't really care, he was able to pass every single drug test ever administered additionally he is still the most tested athlete of all time. If you can pass that bar, then you have my vote of confidence. And again, look at the sport in general, the whole lot of them all dope, So yes I also DO NOT care. cue the subscription to thread !
    If you are guilty and defend your name (knowing you are guilty) you are wasting taxpayer dollars. If you hire lawyers who's aim is to confuse and obfusticate, then you are wasting taxpayer dollars.

    Also, Livestrong stopped funding cancer research in 2005 (go to their website and search it out if you don't belive).

    This has been said many times but:
    A) no, he did not pass every drug test he took
    B) he is not even close to the most tested athlete of all time
    C) If you have the UCI covering for you, it becomes irrelevant how many tests you "pass"
    D) Marion Jones never failed a drug test either, other examples..
    E) The Euro's don't hate Americans (although with this behavior, maybe they should?)

    If you don't care if he doped or not, then that's fine. The system does and should care. It's not about you. This is about justice and justice should apply equally to the rich, popular, and famous as much as the average people among us.

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    Also your humor would be comical if it had some bite.. angry liberal talking point logic,,, never gets old
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    Quote Originally Posted by shulman1144 View Post
    Also your humor would be comical if it had some bite.. angry liberal talking point logic,,, never gets old
    One of us comes across as angry and I'm fairly sure it isn't me. Also you strike a very liberal pose on drugs, you're not French are you?

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    is lance finished? i sure as hell hope so for his sake regardless of the outcome. I'm sure i'd be ready to move on if i were him. oh, yeah, rockerc is definitely on point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hardtail05 View Post
    Well, a liberal use of the word "maybe" but yes, you are probably correct. It cannot hurt, though...

    If you find the info on the Tour of Switzerland EPO positive that was covered up, you may realize that the majority of riders doping does NOT equal a level playing field. Not all doping regimes are comparable, but more importantly, not all the riders are able to buy their way out of a doping sanction. This is a case of the UCI covering for the "goose that laid the golden egg".

    If Lance had nothing to hide, he would have taken USADA up on their offer to come in and testify as the others did. Everyone was offered the same thing and Lance was the only one who refused. His problem is that he built his whole brand on being clean and a hero and he has made a %^&*# load of money on this and he has backed himself into a corner.


    Read more about the "500" tests here

    and read here about French nationalism/favoritism related to bike racing & doping


    All good points. It's hard to discuss facts with Livestrong people. They just misrepresent facts anyway.

    It's a sham. It really is. I mean, all Livestrong is or does is raise money for Lance Armstrong. It does nothing for cancer research. Livestrong wastes sooooo much money on Lance's jets and fancy cars. It's disgusting how Lance hides behind this so-called good deed.

    I agree with you about Lance lying about passing all these drug tests. For one, he lied about taking a lot of drug tests that he didn't take because he hid from testers lots of times. He also got busted for taking steroids and EPO, but paid off the governing body of cycling to hide it. The worst thing is that he now employs all these Livestrong people to lie for him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shulman1144 View Post
    So yes I also DO NOT CARE. !
    Umm yeah you do shulman. Quit lying. If you didn't care, you wouldn't have posted 6 times in the last hour.

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    Didn't read all the way through the string, but does anyone remember that Bayer, the maker of EPO, was Lance's sponsor through all of those tour wins? I find it kind of ironic.

    I also believe that if you think ANYONE was clean during those days or even today and was/is still competitive you must live in fairly land. If you do we need to talk about some islands, a few bridges, and a tower in Paris that I have for sale. All are priced for a quick cash sale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    Didn't read all the way through the string, but does anyone remember that Bayer, the maker of EPO, was Lance's sponsor through all of those tour wins? I find it kind of ironic.

    I also believe that if you think ANYONE was clean during those days or even today and was/is still competitive you must live in fairly land. If you do we need to talk about some islands, a few bridges, and a tower in Paris that I have for sale. All are priced for a quick cash sale.



    Yeah, kinda ironic that Bayer and Bristol-Meyers was big Armstrong supporters. Both of them are in the pharmaceutical industry.

    Lance Armstrong is a total fraud. He got lucky soooo many times while he hung out and tricked the testers and tests. I guess he just couldn't buy everybody and get them to lie for him like his ex wife did. What a lousy excuse for a man and a father. His kids can grow up and know that daddy was a big fat liar and a person who tried to ruin people's lives.

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    I'm not exactly swayed by the retroactive "fair play" rationale. What it feels like, is "here's a guy who's battled overwhelming odds and emerged a champion, let's skroo him." Let's say for argument's sake that in his heyday everyone competitive was doping. he was still the fastest "doper" no?

    But beyond that, this all seems to take everything this guy's done for promoting the sport, making it vastly popular, spurring bike sales, promoting cancer research, inspiring athletes and non-athletics alike, emulation by young people (who likely do not dope because of Armstrong) and lets just trash all that for ... what's the reason again?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    Yeah, kinda ironic that Bayer and Bristol-Meyers was big Armstrong supporters. Both of them are in the pharmaceutical industry.

    Lance Armstrong is a total fraud. He got lucky soooo many times while he hung out and tricked the testers and tests. I guess he just couldn't buy everybody and get them to lie for him like his ex wife did. What a lousy excuse for a man and a father. His kids can grow up and know that daddy was a big fat liar and a person who tried to ruin people's lives.
    Wow, "lousy excuse for a man and father"? When were you friends w/Lance?

    You have ZERO knowledge about what kind of a man or father he is. You may not like him because of what you read about him, but if I based my opinion on you by what I've read here I would not have a high opionion about you, but I doubt everything I've read encapsulates you.

    Here's something you may not know, everything you read about someone isn't true and even if it was you still have about .001% of what that person is like. You have no clue about that person as friend, son, father, husband etc...

    Have an opinion about the subject but to throw around insults like you have is slanderous at best.

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    Ignore bee.

    From the very first Lance Armstrong related thread all he has been doing is bashing him with idiotic and blanket statements. His red rep speaks for itself.

    Regardless if the guy doped or not he is still a legend in cycling and a class A athlete.

    All these guys that are surprised by this doping business need to learn a few things about professional sports.

    Almost all professional athletes in just about every sport dope. Yes, even Olympians. It doesn't matter what the media says about them taking strict drug tests. They dope and get away with it, it's unfortunately a part of pro sports.

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    No. I don't think Lance Armstrong is a legend at all. He's not even a champion. He's a cheater. He's cheated in everything he did both in cycling and in ruining people's lives. That is a poor excuse for a human being, and him hiding behind his sham organization does not make up for the fact that he stole money from cancer patients jut like he stole all those Tour de France wins. Even if the 2nd guy behind Armstrong was also proven to have doped, he would be far more deserving of a win than that cheater Lance Armstrong.

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    Of course Lance doped. Virtually ALL TDF front-runners dope. Some get caught, some don't.
    Cadel Evans, a former mtb racer, is one of the few who most likely don't.

    And look at how Cadel is doing against the doped-up Team Sky this TDF....

    EDIT: What I mean is, all of these guys are super-atheletes, but an event like the TDF wears anybody down, and recovery from stage-to-stage gets pretty tough. That's where the doping comes in. The dopers always seem to be one half-step ahead of the tests, especially on teams like Sky, which is funded by none other than Rupert Murdoch.

    Fox News ring a bell? That guy's got DEEP pockets.

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    Well, Lenny, I have met him a few times, and Carmichael, and have many friends who know him through the Austin cycling community and other professional circles. Consensus is pretty much agreed that he is a massive egotistical shytweasel.. No way around that. He will generally only talk to you if you are either giving him a check, or actively dying of Cancer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shulman1144 View Post
    How is Armstrong wasting tax dollars by defending his own name, and the general reputation of his company which raises millions a year for cancer research and other assorted causes all geared towards the general welfare of people across the country ? If anyone is wasting tax dollars it is all the angry liberal eurotrash who are just pissed off that Armstrong has embarrassed them all by robbing them of their domination of a sport that they have "owned" since its inception. If he did use, I don't really care, he was able to pass every single drug test ever administered additionally he is still the most tested athlete of all time. If you can pass that bar, then you have my vote of confidence. And again, look at the sport in general, the whole lot of them all dope, So yes I also DO NOT care. cue the subscription to thread !
    Cancer research? Wha?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Raton View Post
    Of course Lance doped. Virtually ALL TDF front-runners dope. Some get caught, some don't.
    Cadel Evans, a former mtb racer, is one of the few who most likely don't.

    And look at how Cadel is doing against the doped-up Team Sky this TDF....
    Hmm, I guess the history of the TDF leads to a well founded cynicism but you might want to read this article by Bradley Wiggins... Bradley Wiggins: I can never dope because it would cost me everything | Sport | The Guardian

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuffink View Post
    Hmm, I guess the history of the TDF leads to a well founded cynicism but you might want to read this article by Bradley Wiggins... Bradley Wiggins: I can never dope because it would cost me everything | Sport | The Guardian
    He looks more like a phony looking to get attention to me. Not impressed with anything that chump has to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Addict View Post
    He looks more like a phony looking to get attention to me. Not impressed with anything that chump has to say.
    Oh well, I'll be sure to take your opinion into account when he wins the tour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangeruss View Post

    .....But beyond that, this all seems to take everything this guy's done for promoting the sport, making it vastly popular, spurring bike sales, promoting cancer research, inspiring athletes and non-athletics alike, emulation by young people (who likely do not dope because of Armstrong) and lets just trash all that for ... what's the reason again?

    RE: Livestrong: "the *famous nonprofit donates almost *nothing to scientific research."
    Lance Armstrong and Livestrong | Lance Armstrong | OutsideOnline.com




    RE: inspiring young athletes (Chris Carmichael ): "Strock and Kaiter have continuously maintained that Wenzel, team soigneur Angus Fraser and another U.S. team coach had on several occasions injected riders with cortisone, treated them with other steroids (corticoids and anabolics) and provided them with amphetamines and other possible performance-enhancing drugs during the 1990 season in the U.S. and Europe. That other U.S. coach remains unnamed in the suit, but former U.S. national team coach Chris Carmichael reportedly settled out-of-court with plaintiffs in the case in late 2000 or early 2001. Carmichael has repeatedly declined to comment on questions about an out-of-court settlement."



    Six years later, Strock case comes to court




    People defending Lance are not doing the research. The info is out there and links have been provided throughout this thread. The same tired arguments come up again and again and are debunked. This cancer hero myth is a product of a slick multi-year marketing campaign. Livestrong is not something you should believe in. Educate yourself (this takes time) before forming an opinion. It's well past time to spit out the Kool-aid....

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    wow BEE peace love and hapiness huh?
    Some harsh Judgement there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hardtail05 View Post
    RE: Livestrong: "the *famous nonprofit donates almost *nothing to scientific research."
    Lance Armstrong and Livestrong | Lance Armstrong | OutsideOnline.com



    People defending Lance are not doing the research. The info is out there and links have been provided throughout this thread. The same tired arguments come up again and again and are debunked. This cancer hero myth is a product of a slick multi-year marketing campaign. Livestrong is not something you should believe in. Educate yourself (this takes time) before forming an opinion. It's well past time to spit out the Kool-aid....

    I agree, people defending Lance are like like sticking their heads in the sand. The want to fantasize that he is a god or something. Livestrong is a sham marketing agency. They make yellow rubber bands and raise money for Lance Amrstrong. There is no cancer research going on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crewjones View Post
    wow BEE peace love and hapiness huh?
    Some harsh Judgement there.
    Probably something he recites while staring into the mirror each morning to calm his nerves

    Livestrong.com and .org are different. Can someone explain the diff?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    Probably something he recites while staring into the mirror each morning to calm his nerves

    Livestrong.com and .org are different. Can someone explain the diff?

    .com are private companies
    .org are non-profit organizations

    However, Livestrong is definitely a private company masquerading as a non-profit organizayption. How else does one explain all the fancy jets and cars?

    Livestrong people are just a bunch of lemmings anyway. There new saying is that if Lance did it, so did everybody. And Lance is still a winner. Yay! Big group hug everybody! Group hug time! Kum-bah-yah oh Lance. Kum-bah-yah!
    Last edited by bee; 07-18-2012 at 07:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    Interesting line of thought. You seem to care that he passed a number of tests and care that his foundation defends his reputation, and you seem concerned that the French are behind these accusations, yet you repeat that you do not care if he cheated and lied to become a winner, enriched by doping, famous because of cheating, thus allowing him to become a celebrity and raise lots of money for something with his name on it.

    Why care about how someone achieved greatness? There should be no standard of fair play? Or if you pass multiple tests, because you went and paid half a million dollars to Dr. Ferrari, the most famous doping expert in cycling, to help you avoid detection.

    Do you also not care if Hincape testifies against Lance? How about Johan? How about another 8-10 close riding partners and teammates? You don't care. Gonna repeat the passing multiple test defense all the way to the end?

    How do you account for Marion Jones? She may be the most tested world champion track runner of all time. Tested for over a decade. Not one bad test. So she was innocent of doping, according to your standard, right? Were the French out to get her? No. USADA is not run by the French. The Government agencies investigating her for years were U.S. agencies, just like with Lance. Her coach ratted her out. He even turned a syringe over to USADA, with undetectable drugs in it, that he said he was injecting into her. Her own checks were found during a raid of BALCO. She still denied using drugs. Her fans still shouted over and over she passed the tests. Ultimately, they got her on check fraud, and made a deal to shorten her sentence if she made a full confession. I suppose there will be some hard core fans that will cling to those passed tests and state she was running clean and made up the confession just to avoid more jail time. Some fans are like that, arn't they?
    but but but lance is my hero ~shulman1144

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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Well, Lenny, I have met him a few times, and Carmichael, and have many friends who know him through the Austin cycling community and other professional circles. Consensus is pretty much agreed that he is a massive egotistical shytweasel.. No way around that. He will generally only talk to you if you are either giving him a check, or actively dying of Cancer.
    I've met him once, seemed nice enough. I was sans check and cancer(thank God). Are you saying carmichael said he's a jackass?

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    Guessing Lance will say the Federal Judge has a vendetta against him as well

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangeruss View Post
    I'm not exactly swayed by the retroactive "fair play" rationale. What it feels like, is "here's a guy who's battled overwhelming odds and emerged a champion, let's skroo him." Let's say for argument's sake that in his heyday everyone competitive was doping. he was still the fastest "doper" no?

    But beyond that, this all seems to take everything this guy's done for promoting the sport, making it vastly popular, spurring bike sales, promoting cancer research, inspiring athletes and non-athletics alike, emulation by young people (who likely do not dope because of Armstrong) and lets just trash all that for ... what's the reason again?
    +1

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    Quote Originally Posted by shulman1144 View Post
    I guess so If others believe that presumption is the mother of truth. I always err on the side of lifelong teammates and coaches who end up ultimately turning in their "beloved" teammates with HARD evidence. And I also always believe a leveraged confession. I had to give a leveraged confession myself recently. I got pulled over in a friends vehicle in NYS, and the police took me in for DWI, I blew a 0.0 BAC, I hadn't smoked in over 8 hours, I had two options in court, fight the DWI in trial at a risk of 1 year in jail, risking the possibility of the urine test coming back positive despite the time between the stop and providing urine. Or plead guilty to the DWI and take 3 years of probation and a misdemeanor . In NY there are no more DUI's or DWAI's or any other type of lesser derivative of the charge. The cops were specifically looking for the owner of the vehicle, conducted a full search of the vehicle discovering a small amount of marijuana >1 gram, and a pipe, as well as a broken bong in the trunk. They also discovered a small pocket knife that had a loose assembly which they called a gravity knife and also charged me with criminal possession of a weapon. The plea got rid of everything except the DWI charge, If I would have went to trial and beat the DWI they would have slammed me on the other charges. So if you don't think this identical type of scenario plays out at higher levels you are insane. In a perfect world with perfect people your logic almost applies. This is a million variable situation, occurring over many decades, and to try to define it with your moral stamp of approval is nothing short of absurd. But that's just my opinion and in no way is it fact, or to be considered above your own.

    2 cents, +1
    If only you cared a little more, maybe you could have hired Dr. Ferrari to help you pass your tests. But then there were all those other charges. Too bad Johnny Cochran died. You could have used his patented Chewbacca defense. You could have beaten the charges, waltzed out of the courtroom, sold the movie rights and retired.

    My advice, tell them Missy Giove loaned you the rig.

  121. #121
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    Totally agree. Lance is a real cheating scumbag. The sport is gonna take awhile to recover from such long term cheating and lies to all those cancer kids.

    Armstrong did the crime, now he's gonna do the time.

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    Here is where your Livestrong dollars go
    Livestrong Lobbyist's Agenda Is Questioned - WSJ.com


    Not surprising to those who have followed this train-wreck, but disgusting nonetheless.

    To get the full article, click the link from Google
    https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nw...e+Armstrong%22

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    Lance isn't a scumbag for doping. They all dope. You have to do it to be competitive. If anyone can draw enough attention to this widespread problem, Lance certainly can. It's the equivalent of the steroid era of baseball. NFL players are using roids. In a sport where you stand to make a lot of money and fame at the top, it's human nature to keep up and get ahead of the next guy.

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by sumgai View Post
    Lance isn't a scumbag for doping. They all dope. You have to do it to be competitive. If anyone can draw enough attention to this widespread problem, Lance certainly can. It's the equivalent of the steroid era of baseball. NFL players are using roids. In a sport where you stand to make a lot of money and fame at the top, it's human nature to keep up and get ahead of the next guy.


    Welcome Livestrong people. Look everybody, the evidence is mounting on our hero Lance. Well, it's like this. Go Lance! I mean, he still is a winner in our books, they all dope, so he won fair and square.

    Everybody join hands. Come on. Put your yellow rubber banded hands in the huddle. Ready. On 3! 1, 2, 3! Lance! Lance! Lance! Dope! Dope! Dope! Alright guys! Have a great day. Get on those forums and spread the message!!!!

  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by sumgai View Post
    Lance isn't a scumbag for doping.
    Maybe not but if he did he's a scumbag for lying about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    Welcome Livestrong people. Look everybody, the evidence is mounting on our hero Lance. Well, it's like this. Go Lance! I mean, he still is a winner in our books, they all dope, so he won fair and square.

    Everybody join hands. Come on. Put your yellow rubber banded hands in the huddle. Ready. On 3! 1, 2, 3! Lance! Lance! Lance! Dope! Dope! Dope! Alright guys! Have a great day. Get on those forums and spread the message!!!!
    You might want to do your homework before you make yourself look like such an idiot.

    Oh and btw...I didn't advocate doping. I stated that it's widespread. In order to cut down on it, testing will have to improve. That wont happen overnight.

    Now be a good little boy and give the computer back to mommy.

  127. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by sumgai View Post
    You might want to do your homework before you make yourself look like such an idiot.

    Oh and btw...I didn't advocate doping. I stated that it's widespread. In order to cut down on it, testing will have to improve. That wont happen overnight.

    Now be a good little boy and give the computer back to mommy.


    Look, all you guys of the Lance Amstrong Fan Club subvertly support doping, or at least doping by Lance Armstrong. Because if Lance did it, so did everyone, and he won fair and square.

    Let's not argue. Let's just hold hands and sing. Kum bah yah, oh Lance! Kum bah yah! Excuse me, I gotta go wash my yellow rubber band. It's starting to smell bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuffink View Post
    Oh well, I'll be sure to take your opinion into account when he wins the tour.
    Most likely. The best doping Murdoch can buy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    Look, all you guys of the Lance Amstrong Fan Club subvertly support doping, or at least doping by Lance Armstrong. Because if Lance did it, so did everyone, and he won fair and square.

    Let's not argue. Let's just hold hands and sing. Kum bah yah, oh Lance! Kum bah yah! Excuse me, I gotta go wash my yellow rubber band. It's starting to smell bad.
    How can we sing if you don't give us any koolaid? Preferably the Amgen variety. It's so tasty....

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by sumgai View Post
    Lance isn't a scumbag for doping (according to his sycophantic fans) Those of us who aren't blinded by hero worship of a cheat and liar, think he is a scumbag. When the USADA investigation ends, it is likely most of Lance's closest friends and teammates will have testified Lance is a scumbag.


    They all dope. You have to do it to be competitive. Notice how the most rabid of Lance's fans do not suggest doping was widespread. Nope. They insist ALL riders are doping. They don't have to do it to be competitive. The only ones who have to do it are the ones who feel they must win at any cost. The ones who bank on fans supporting them no matter how they behave and no matter how many friends and teamamtes they throw under the team bus.



    If anyone can draw enough attention to this widespread problem, Lance certainly can. What? Seriously, what? So we should not punish cheats and liars. We should make them spokespersons, ambassadors for the sport. Didn't we try that already when we had Elvis Presey in the White House speaking out against drug use. And you want to ask Lance to publically speak out against doping without first admitting he has lied about his own doping all along? You sure you did your homework on this idea?



    It's the equivalent of the steroid era of baseball. NFL players are using roids. In a sport where you stand to make a lot of money and fame at the top, it's human nature to keep up and get ahead of the next guy.

    No, it is not the same as baseball. How many baseball players are doping? 3%? 5%? How many NFL player are using roids? 5%? More? Less?

    It's only human nature to people who's nature is to cheat and lie to win. That would not include all pro cyclist. It seems so strange that fans of Lance like to suggest everyone was doping, but then they support Lance when he says he was clean. So they actually believe everyone was cheating, all 198 riders in the tour, except Lance Armstrong. What is Lance putting in that kool-aid, your all drinking?


    If you really want to cut down on doping, write a check to USADA and encourage them to nail Lance and the others charged in this investigation.

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    Its really unclear what the USDA hopes to achieve by taking down Lance, except by making Americans less competitive in the tour by forcing them to not dope when everyone else is. I wonder if its politically motivated because Lance is a friend of George W. Bush. Wouldn't surprise me in the least....next the socialists will want to send Lance to some Gulag in Alaska to be re-educated.

  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCanyonTrailJunkie View Post
    Its really unclear what the USDA hopes to achieve by taking down Lance, except by making Americans less competitive in the tour by forcing them to not dope when everyone else is. I wonder if its politically motivated because Lance is a friend of George W. Bush. Wouldn't surprise me in the least....next the socialists will want to send Lance to some Gulag in Alaska to be re-educated.

    Even though you are an Armstrong fan, you do make a good suggestion. Lance does need a re-education. Actually, no. Scratch that. He needs an education, not re-education. Lance didn't even finish high school. He got a GED. That's why he acts so arrogant, cocky, and UN-educated. Because he is!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuffink View Post
    Oh well, I'll be sure to take your opinion into account when he wins the tour.
    He won't win.

  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCanyonTrailJunkie View Post
    Its really unclear what the USDA hopes to achieve by taking down Lance, except by making Americans less competitive in the tour by forcing them to not dope when everyone else is. I wonder if its politically motivated because Lance is a friend of George W. Bush. Wouldn't surprise me in the least....next the socialists will want to send Lance to some Gulag in Alaska to be re-educated.
    Ah! It had to come... the "It's all a socialist plot" conspiracy theory. The only Gulag I know of in Alaska would be in Wasilla, or am I missing something?
    The way I see it, 'America' can do one of two things, either do Jack Scheisse and bumble on much as we are in obfuscation, denial, muted acceptance of the fact that "they're all doing it so we just have to do it better", OR, take something of a moral stand on some vestige of remaining high ground and do whatever is possible to steer competitors away from doping. That used to be an imperative in all sports until pressure to deliver and greed for success at any cost became the overriding drive. Personally, if I were a top level competitor, I could not enjoy the fruits of success if I knew they were won by cheating. Unfortunately, the definition of cheating is often not as cut and dried as it should be. I suspect that competitors are made to think that because a substance is not on a list, it is OK to take it. The lines get blurred very quickly.
    The only way to ensure true equality is to lock up all competitors at the start of the season, and feed everyone the same meals the whole time. That would soon sort the wheat from the chaff!
    It's all Here. Now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCanyonTrailJunkie View Post
    Its really unclear what the USDA hopes to achieve by taking down Lance, except by making Americans less competitive in the tour by forcing them to not dope when everyone else is. I wonder if its politically motivated because Lance is a friend of George W. Bush. Wouldn't surprise me in the least....next the socialists will want to send Lance to some Gulag in Alaska to be re-educated.
    Jeez, you guys are getting desperate.
    I love it.

    As far as this being some liberal plot by Obama to take town Lance, check out what a certain John McCain had to say:
    Senator McCain Backs USADA Investigation Into Armstrong | Cyclingnews.com

    I guess now it's a liberal AND conservative plot to take down Lance...

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardtail05 View Post
    Jeez, you guys are getting desperate.
    I love it.

    As far as this being some liberal plot by Obama to take town Lance, check out what a certain John McCain had to say:
    Senator McCain Backs USADA Investigation Into Armstrong | Cyclingnews.com

    I guess now it's a liberal AND conservative plot to take down Lance...


    I agree. Some of the things that Lance Armstrong people say just crack me up.
    -
    • - The French are out to get Lance, even though the investigators are American
    • - Lance never failed a drug test, even though he actually did test positive multiple times but never was sanctioned
    • - Lance is still a winner because they all dope. LOL! Nobody has the mountain of evidence against them like Lance does.
    • - Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton are just trying to get rich. Uh, the only rich guy is Armstrong after his years and years of lies.
    • - Now they are saying its Obama's doing that Armstrong is going down. LOL!

  137. #137
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    This just in within the past hr. HUGE NEWS. Extremely damaging. Those people at Livestrong are so deceitful.

    Livestrong attempted to undermine USADA Investigation.
    Report suggests Livestrong lobbyist could have sought to influence USADA investigation into Armstrong

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    There is a mountain of evidence against Lance because he won the Tour 7 times in a row, bro. Hence, Contador barely got the coverage Lance is getting because Contador won once and was stripped of his Tour winner title. Same with Landis.

    There was an excellent article a couple of years ago in Newsweek that illustrated the dopers in the past 20 years of the Tour. Every single top 10+ finisher that Lance had beat during his wins had at some time been guilty of doping. Lance had somehow managed to beat an entire sport that dopes without doping himself? I think not. He obviously had to be doing it too. The point isn't that it makes it OK for him to do it. The point is that it simple is the way it is right now.

    Put your emotions down for a second and try to imagine yourself a rational, educated man. I know it's tough for you cuz it's easier for you to get attention by being one of the first Lance Must Die campers on the block. There's always a story behind a story. This story isn't just about Lance, whether you choose to admit it or not.

    BTW, obviously, you are the type of person who has few friends, no social skills, and no life beyond the innernetz. 350 posts, no points, and you're in the red. I don't even need to read your other posts to get what you're up to. You threw tacks on the road two days ago, didn't you? Stay classy bro.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sumgai View Post
    There was an excellent article a couple of years ago in Newsweek that illustrated the dopers in the past 20 years of the Tour. Every single top 10+ finisher that Lance had beat during his wins had at some time been guilty of doping. Lance had somehow managed to beat an entire sport that dopes without doping himself? I think not. He obviously had to be doing it too. The point isn't that it makes it OK for him to do it. The point is that it simple is the way it is right now.
    I agree the circumstantial evidence is pretty damning. The thing that keeps getting me, however, is that if every single person (top 10) Lance beat has been guilty of doping - presumably because they tested positive for something - how is it that Lance beat all the tests when others haven't?

    And don't tell me he was guilty because the B samples showed that. There is a lot of mishandling and inappropriate shenanigans surrounding how those samples were handled and tested; enough to make me think any results of those tests are questionable at best.

    But the question is, why didn't the A samples pop if everyone else's were coming up positive? Maybe he and his team of doctors was that much better than all the other team chemists, but I really can't see how that's possible in the big scheme of things.

    And the USADA is wanting their cake and to eat it, too, disregarding their testing program science in favor of the stories and claims/accusations of mostly disgraced riders. And those that haven't been busted yet seem to be getting some sort of immunity against any past doping charges.

    It just seems to me that there's a lot going on here and it's not driven by a pure drive to keep sports clean. Whatever the USADA decides - what am I saying, they've convicted him and he'll be found guilty by them if its allowed to go to "arbitration" - the uncertainty will remain because of all the other crap swirling around the bowl of this case.

  140. #140
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    The thing I don't get is what time the Livestrong people finish their morning coffees and start their misinformation postings on the Internet. I've always wondered about that. But facts are facts. 10+ witnesses composed of multiple teammates, team employees, etc. all with testimony. The evidence is overwhelming that Armstrong cheated and lied to cover it up.

    The only other case with this many detractors speaking out against the accused is Jerry Sandusky., the recently convicted child molester. Interestingly, Armstrong's defense is similar, if not almost the exact same, as that used by Sandusky. Discredit as many of the accusers as possible and go on the offensive and say that the accusers are out to seek financial gain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    ... - how is it that Lance beat all the tests when others haven't?
    ......
    Probably a lot of things like this..
    Report: Swiss Lab chief told feds Lance Armstrong test 'consistent with EPO use' - ESPN


    "....he had tested positive at the 2001 Tour de Swiss, but that it wouldn't be a problem because "people took care of it."

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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    I agree the circumstantial evidence is pretty damning. The thing that keeps getting me, however, is that if every single person (top 10) Lance beat has been guilty of doping - presumably because they tested positive for something - how is it that Lance beat all the tests when others haven't?

    And don't tell me he was guilty because the B samples showed that. There is a lot of mishandling and inappropriate shenanigans surrounding how those samples were handled and tested; enough to make me think any results of those tests are questionable at best.

    But the question is, why didn't the A samples pop if everyone else's were coming up positive? Maybe he and his team of doctors was that much better than all the other team chemists, but I really can't see how that's possible in the big scheme of things.

    And the USADA is wanting their cake and to eat it, too, disregarding their testing program science in favor of the stories and claims/accusations of mostly disgraced riders. And those that haven't been busted yet seem to be getting some sort of immunity against any past doping charges.

    It just seems to me that there's a lot going on here and it's not driven by a pure drive to keep sports clean. Whatever the USADA decides - what am I saying, they've convicted him and he'll be found guilty by them if its allowed to go to "arbitration" - the uncertainty will remain because of all the other crap swirling around the bowl of this case.
    To answer your questions; I believe most athletes caught doping have had different stories. Some could afford the best doctors and chemists, and more importantly, they took extreme precautions to avoid having too many witnesses. They tried to keep the inner circle small and loyal, even if it required pay-offs. Actually, it often required pay-offs. Some athletes left most of the decisions up to team doctors and trainers. They pled ignorrant when they tested positive. So don't go thinking the doping game was played on a level playing field.

    Why do you believe there is a lot of mishandling of samples? Because highly paid lawyers working for disgraced athletes are telling you the tests are unreliable, that is why. As a former police officer, I can tell you most attorneys attempt to sway jurors in DUI cases that the tests were faulty or the chain of custody of physical evidence was compromised. It almost never was. It's very rare to hear of such things. The rules are strict and samples are protected and cafefully handled.

    You answered your own question regarding the A sample. Lance had, by far, the best people in the doping world on salary. He sought out Dr. Ferrari. He made secret trips to Europe to meet with him. The guy was years ahead of the others, in the same way BALCO was engineering performance drugs that were undetectable unless you had an actual sample to reverse engineer.

    One last related matter. Some testing has shown that not all athletes experience the same results, using performance drugs. Some bodies gain 10% performance boost while other athletes gain only 2%. Lance seemed to gain more than any other athlete. It has something to do with his bodies chemistry. I don't have the article in front of me. So there was never a level playing field, even if "they all" cheated. Lance always had a serious advantage over his opponents.

  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    The thing I don't get is what time the Livestrong people finish their morning coffees and start their misinformation postings on the Internet. I've always wondered about that. But facts are facts. 10+ witnesses composed of multiple teammates, team employees, etc. all with testimony. The evidence is overwhelming that Armstrong cheated and lied to cover it up.

    The only other case with this many detractors speaking out against the accused is Jerry Sandusky., the recently convicted child molester. Interestingly, Armstrong's defense is similar, if not almost the exact same, as that used by Sandusky. Discredit as many of the accusers as possible and go on the offensive and say that the accusers are out to seek financial gain.
    Doping in sports and a child molester do not belong in the same discussion.

    Honestly I think the sport needs to worry more about itself than any individual that cheated doping because they all do it. They need to develop a program for competitors that starts testing well in advance of an event rather than random spot checking. They also need to just flat ban athletes that are caught doping. You dope, you are done. I think the thing that is funny is most in this thread are pointing fingers at Armstrong when it's a commentary on society at large rather than any single athlete. Was he doping? Of course he was and so were the next fifty guys behind him. This problem is not unique to cycling by a long shot. Whether professional sports or the Olympics the majority of top athletes are doping.

  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
    Doping in sports and a child molester do not belong in the same discussion.

    Honestly I think the sport needs to worry more about itself than any individual that cheated doping because they all do it. They need to develop a program for competitors that starts testing well in advance of an event rather than random spot checking. They also need to just flat ban athletes that are caught doping. You dope, you are done. I think the thing that is funny is most in this thread are pointing fingers at Armstrong when it's a commentary on society at large rather than any single athlete. Was he doping? Of course he was and so were the next fifty guys behind him. This problem is not unique to cycling by a long shot. Whether professional sports or the Olympics the majority of top athletes are doping.


    The defense of Lance Armstrong, and the tactics used by Armstrong's lawyers are the same as the defense tactics used by Jerry Sandusky. It's not up to the Armstrong people to cry foul when Armstrong is smearing and discrediting all his accusers. Sandusky did this too. Armstrong also is claiming that all his accusers are seeking financial gain.

    It's misinformation that the people that Lance beat all tested positive. Many of Lance close competitors did not test positive, but were deemed to have conspired in doping allegations. They are dopers too. However, Not ALL of the riders that Lance beat tested positive for anything. Many did. Not all did. Some that beat the tests were dopers. Not all riders were dopers. Facts are facts. Just ask Jerry's accusers.

  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    .....
    He sought out Dr. Ferrari. He made secret trips to Europe to meet with him. .......
    Also, he kept an apartment in Austin that Ferrari was able to stay in while visiting Lance in Texas. He kept the doctor away from the big ranch house & hotel because it would have been bad publicity to be seen with him when he publically denied working with him.

    Michael Anderson's Testimony On Lance Armstrong Doping

    See Item #15, Page 9

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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    I agree the circumstantial evidence is pretty damning. The thing that keeps getting me, however, is that if every single person (top 10) Lance beat has been guilty of doping - presumably because they tested positive for something - how is it that Lance beat all the tests when others haven't?
    Please forgive my lack of ability to provide the author's name, but I believe it was in Bicycling magazine that I read an article written by the one reporter than Lance allowed on the team bus, during team meetings, etc. I searched and cannot seem to find it. The reporter said and documented that he had been very close to Lance his entire career and that after he sifted through all of the "evidence", stories, claims, accusations, etc that he hated to admit that he could not fathom any way in the world that Lance did not dope. His final thoughts went like this, "Whatever Lance was doing, he was the best at it." He meant either he was the best at riding a bike naturally and legally or he was the best at hiding his doping.

    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    And don't tell me he was guilty because the B samples showed that. There is a lot of mishandling and inappropriate shenanigans surrounding how those samples were handled and tested; enough to make me think any results of those tests are questionable at best.
    Well, yes, that's the hard part. How well were his samples handled and how secure were they? Of course, whether he's innocent or guilty, he will claim they mishandled his samples. That will always be a question that I don't think will get an absolute answer, unfortunately.

    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    But the question is, why didn't the A samples pop if everyone else's were coming up positive? Maybe he and his team of doctors was that much better than all the other team chemists, but I really can't see how that's possible in the big scheme of things.
    Dr. Ferrari is supposedly the most knowledgable doping expert out there. BALCO helped athletes get away with a lot before they were finally exposed. Maybe there's someone else with chemistry expertise who we don't know about as well in Lance's case.

    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    And the USADA is wanting their cake and to eat it, too, disregarding their testing program science in favor of the stories and claims/accusations of mostly disgraced riders. And those that haven't been busted yet seem to be getting some sort of immunity against any past doping charges.
    Yeah, the USADA is a tricky situation. I'm sure those leading the investigation want to make a name and a career move for themselves but at the same time the more U.S. athletes they bust the less respectable our athletes appear. It's not an easy road.

    One thing is for sure - when you throw lots of money and fame at top athletes in any sport, the risk of them using PEDs increases significantly. The bottom feeders don't make much money like a minimum wage NFL player does. There's no "league minimum" in cycling where one can just kinda hang out for 10 years and collect a fat paycheck and lifetime benefits.

    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    It just seems to me that there's a lot going on here and it's not driven by a pure drive to keep sports clean. Whatever the USADA decides - what am I saying, they've convicted him and he'll be found guilty by them if its allowed to go to "arbitration" - the uncertainty will remain because of all the other crap swirling around the bowl of this case.
    Ah, yes, politics. It's everywhere unfortunately. I agree that it seems there's more going on behind the scenes, which is why there is always a story behind the story.

    I would prefer if none of these guys doped. The only way to get them to stop doping is to improve testing so that they know if they dope they absolutely will get caught. Once one guy gets away with it, everyone else will follow. You can't complain about good people/bad people. The fact of the matter is that sports are about more than just the sport. Good people will make questionable decisions based on their expected outcome. If someone thinks doping will help them compete at the top level without being caught and result in fortune and glory, they're likely to take that chance.

    +1 rep for your excellent, thoughtful, intelligent reply btw

  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post

    One last related matter. Some testing has shown that not all athletes experience the same results, using performance drugs. Some bodies gain 10% performance boost while other athletes gain only 2%. Lance seemed to gain more than any other athlete. It has something to do with his bodies chemistry. I don't have the article in front of me. So there was never a level playing field, even if "they all" cheated. Lance always had a serious advantage over his opponents.

    Agree completely. The level playing field speech is used by Armstrong supporters so that they can advertise that Armstrong is still a winner and won fair and square.

    The Armstrong pro-drug argument fails because these Armstrong pro-drug supporters assume that ALL athletes dope, all the way from the top pros, to the domestiques, to the top pros barely missing team selection for the Tours, down to the elite amateurs, all the way down to the new racers. Now, that they've established their assumption, they also assume that one guy that spends $100 for some measly injects of steroids or whatever is equivalent to Armstrong who has spent $500,000+ yearly on a whole medical program of EPO, testosterone, etc..

    The level playing field was distorted in favor of Lance Armstrong.

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    I honestly don't see what the big deal is. What is so bad about doping? Are we worried about the health of the athletes? If that was true then that was way out the window a long time ago. Look at football, I am pretty sure it is more damaging to an athlete to play the sport of football than it is to dope. Does Andy Schleck look like the pinnacle of fitness to you? Is riding in the tour really "good" for the body. There is a level of exercise where it ceases to be for best overall health and starts to be damaging by either muscular imbalance or overuse. I watched a documentary supersize me or something and it showed that unless you severely abuse steroids there are minimal side affects. Does someone have proof of otherwise?

    Is it about fairness? If it is opened up to anything and everything then everyone is back on a level playing field again. As of right now what is fair? Is it genetics that someone has better genetics than me and can ride longer/farther than me? What about people who have a lifestyle that allows them to train more than me and thus ride faster than me.....Should we make everyone only train the same amount of time so that no-one has an advantage of another?

    Like I said. I don't understand why it is a big deal. Truth is Lance probably doped and so did all of his competitors at the time so that looks like an even playing field for me. Drugs still will not train for you, or do the race for you.

    Also....I'm not a big Lance fan. I think he is an a-hole. I've got my reasons and some of them are silly. But nonetheless I am still impressed with what he has done drugs or no drugs.

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    People trying to draw a parallel between Sandusky and Armstrong are way off. In Sandusky, you have witnesses and victims. With Lance you have witnesses. If the Sandusky case only had witnesses saying they saw him abuse kids without the kids coming forward they never would have got a conviction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tooclosetosee View Post
    I honestly don't see what the big deal is. What is so bad about doping? .....
    If you read the link about Greg Strock, and there is lots of other info out there, you will see that doping can and does lead to illness, cancer, and even death. Young athletes get forced into this if it's the status quo. Teammates get pressured to do this just to get on the TDF team. They don't want to be forced into it just to compete.

    I'm not going to research this now, but some pretty good hypothesis out there that Lance's own testicular cancer was caused by doping (I am not claiming this to be unrefuted fact at this point, but it should make you wonder).

    So, in a nutshell, that is part of "what's wrong with doping".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenny7 View Post
    People trying to draw a parallel between Sandusky and Armstrong are way off. In Sandusky, you have witnesses and victims. With Lance you have witnesses. If the Sandusky case only had witnesses saying they saw him abuse kids without the kids coming forward they never would have got a conviction.


    Armstrong benefitted by millions, tens of millions. Scratch that. Hundreds of millions. Enough even to buy a pro sports stadium. Those millions came off the lies and coverups for all the cheating going on. Of course there are victims. People he stole from. The cancer kids that Armstrong tricked into thinking he was real and not the cheater and liar that he actually is. Sure, Armstrong beat the system, but he never did it the right way. He did it the wrong way. Live strong, but so so wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hardtail05 View Post
    If you read the link about Greg Strock, and there is lots of other info out there, you will see that doping can and does lead to illness, cancer, and even death. Young athletes get forced into this if it's the status quo. Teammates get pressured to do this just to get on the TDF team. They don't want to be forced into it just to compete.

    I'm not going to research this now, but some pretty good hypothesis out there that Lance's own testicular cancer was caused by doping (I am not claiming this to be unrefuted fact at this point, but it should make you wonder).

    So, in a nutshell, that is part of "what's wrong with doping".
    I don't disagree with the end result which is often horrible cancers but I think the desire of most top athletes is to win at any cost, no matter what age, 16 or 30. I think the problem with young people is they are convinced the are indestructible. Steroids is just one item in a long list of things they have done to get to the top. I'm sure most of them will tell you it didn't get them to the top, it just gives them the edge they need to compete at the top.

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    In the grand scheme of things, what's "wrong" with doping is that it takes away from natural human athletic competition. Presumably, sports came about to see who had the best genetic gift for a sport. A sport is simply a demonstration of the maximum human skill set within given boundaries. Doping and other PEDs erase the natural human element from sport, which is what it's supposed to be about anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    Armstrong benefitted by millions, tens of millions. Scratch that. Hundreds of millions. Enough even to buy a pro sports stadium. Those millions came off the lies and coverups for all the cheating going on. Of course there are victims. People he stole from. The cancer kids that Armstrong tricked into thinking he was real and not the cheater and liar that he actually is. Sure, Armstrong beat the system, but he never did it the right way. He did it the wrong way. Live strong, but so so wrong.
    Man with all respect to you, I think this is a really naive way of looking at the situation. If you play ball in any field the big boys cheat to win. It's up to you to decide how to play and how bad you want to win. There is a tolerated level of cheating and there is the point where that line is crossed and people go to jail, get fired, are stripped of medals. Clearly as a society at large we tolerate doping. I think the only sport that has seriously cleaned up is baseball, and only after a hefty price fell upon the league and players. Who didn't enjoy the slam fest back in the eighties and nineties? Yet, we all knew those ball players with monster arms were doing something. It was the same thing when Lance was winning, everybody knew it, turned a cheek and hoped he won another. It was a great time to see an American consistently win.
    Last edited by FX4; 07-17-2012 at 01:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
    . It's was the same thing when Lance was winning, everybody knew it, turned a cheek and hoped he won another. It was a great time to see an American consistently win.
    I remember his win in 2005 and it was awesome at the time. Pride in an American kicking ass in Europe and all that. I think some of that may account for our collective "I don't want to belive what really happened" thing we, as a country, had going on the last several years. Although, as new facts and details have been coming out over the years, that thing has been breaking down.

    As a relative of someone who fought (and lost) the battle with cancer, I once wore the yellow band. I gradually decided to educate myself and stop listening to Phil, Paul, & Bob (Ligget, Sherwin, & Roll, for those who don't know). It takes time and you have to be factual, as opposed to emotional. I think the main emotion at play is pride (living vicariously through the accomplishments of another, perhaps?) that makes people subconciously decide to be willfully ignorant of the mountains of evidence of not only doping, but general despicible conduct, of this guy.

    Another large subset of our culture knows about the doping angle, but either doesn't know, or doesn't care about the other #$%^& that went along with it that sets Lance apart from other dopers like Ulrich, Pantani, Hamilton, Landis, Basso, Schleck, Contador, Rebellin, Valverde, Vinokourov, Ricco, Sella, etc, etc, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCanyonTrailJunkie View Post
    Its really unclear what the USDA hopes to achieve by taking down Lance, except by making Americans less competitive in the tour by forcing them to not dope when everyone else is. I wonder if its politically motivated because Lance is a friend of George W. Bush. Wouldn't surprise me in the least....next the socialists will want to send Lance to some Gulag in Alaska to be re-educated.
    So, in other words, if your'e not a 'socialist', it's OK to lie, dope, and cheat?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hardtail05 View Post
    I remember his win in 2005 and it was awesome at the time. Pride in an American kicking ass in Europe and all that. I think some of that may account for our collective "I don't want to belive what really happened" thing we, as a country, had going on the last several years. Although, as new facts and details have been coming out over the years, that thing has been breaking down.

    As a relative of someone who fought (and lost) the battle with cancer, I once wore the yellow band. I gradually decided to educate myself and stop listening to Phil, Paul, & Bob (Ligget, Sherwin, & Roll, for those who don't know). It takes time and you have to be factual, as opposed to emotional. I think the main emotion at play is pride (living vicariously through the accomplishments of another, perhaps?) that makes people subconciously decide to be willfully ignorant of the mountains of evidence of not only doping, but general despicible conduct, of this guy.

    Another large subset of our culture knows about the doping angle, but either doesn't know, or doesn't care about the other #$%^& that went along with it that sets Lance apart from other dopers like Ulrich, Pantani, Hamilton, Landis, Basso, Schleck, Contador, Rebellin, Valverde, Vinokourov, Ricco, Sella, etc, etc, etc.
    I agree. I think we as a society need to be looking at ourselves as much as we are at Lance and others. I mean we created these guys to a certain extent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
    I agree. I think we as a society need to be looking at ourselves as much as we are at Lance and others. I mean we created these guys to a certain extent.
    Yup. it's almost dangerous to have "heros" these days. That fact doesn't speak to highly of certain aspects of human nature. I think the middle ground is for people to just be realistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    Armstrong benefitted by millions, tens of millions. Scratch that. Hundreds of millions. Enough even to buy a pro sports stadium. Those millions came off the lies and coverups for all the cheating going on. Of course there are victims. People he stole from. The cancer kids that Armstrong tricked into thinking he was real and not the cheater and liar that he actually is. Sure, Armstrong beat the system, but he never did it the right way. He did it the wrong way. Live strong, but so so wrong.
    How many of those "victims" will testify about Lance injecting them with drugs?

    So Bee, let me ask you a question and I want you to answer it honestly, does your moms basement have a window or do you have to go up stairs to check the weather?

  160. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardtail05 View Post
    Yup. it's almost dangerous to have "heros" these days. That fact doesn't speak to highly of certain aspects of human nature. I think the middle ground is for people to just be realistic.
    I think it has always been this way. The difference today is the availability of information on anyone and anything. It just kind of takes the shine off of things. Echoing your thoughts, maybe we do need to be a little more realistic about our heroes? They are humans and we are all flawed one way or another...

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    And I'm a fan of professional cycling, and I DO care.

    So the athletes that race don't think fans deserve clean races? They don't want clean races?

    The Federal investigation delt with crimes associated with using the drugs. Tax dollars used to buy and distribute them, lying under oath, payoffs, other crimes related to using drugs. They did not concern themselves with the actual drug use.

    The USADA investigatin is specific to showing how Lance was using banned substances. Compelling many within his inner circle to discuss what they know and what they saw.

    It may be true that some cyclists compete with others who do not care. It may be part of the reason it is so hard to get people to testify. Winning at any cost may be considered fair play to some. To many of us, if not most of us, we want athlete to win fairly. If they cheated to win, we want them to admit to it, so they don't compound the negative feelings of fans by being know as both a liar and a cheat.
    I have agreed with a lot what you've been posting about this. But don't see the point of going after Lance but not any other known cheaters regardless of their stature. A lot of the cyclists are still doping. If Lance was busted after his last TDF victory would all of the competing cyclists since then have all of a sudden stopped doping ie Contador ? I really doubt it. So the argument that if you bust Lance and strip his titles it will clean up cycling .... not sure about that one.

    Don't call me a Lance fan boy either, I enjoyed watching him win and there is no doubt in my mind he cheated. Most people have made up their minds on this. This is so after the fact why bring it now , it does'nt matter, time to move on. Use all of this money on better testing. But I think USADA has such a hard on for this that they will get what they want here. So, once Lance is cooked I say they go after Lemond, there's been some rumblings you know.

    Sosa and McGuire both cheated in the quest to break the single season HR record and everyone knows it. Any body going after them ?
    Last edited by dickeydoo; 07-17-2012 at 04:37 PM.
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    How about the authorities, since there is no way they can catch the dopers who have the deepest pockets, just do what the competitive bodybuilding authorities did?

    They created an "open" division, and an "All Natural" division. It was pretty obvious , looking at the two groups of top competitors, what the difference was.

    In cycling, though, it's not so obvious. cycling is not just about anabolics and appearance, it's about performance. So doping results tend to show up in multi-stage grueling events like the TDF, etc. Without the dope, a "natural" cyclist just can't recover from a 100+ mile mountain stage to a another the next day and perform at the same level, for 3 weeks.
    Like Lance and so many others did.

    I really enjoyed watching Lance turn the Tour into the "Tour De Lance", I like to indulge in the delusional magical thinking of "American Exceptionalism", probably as much as anybody here.

    But at the end of the day, I have to be rational in order to live with myself. With bodybuilding, there was just no way the officials were gonna be able to beat the 'roid-ragers. So, they basically made the compromise I outlined above, and basically, it's worked out pretty well.

    I say, give it a try with the professional cycling world, too.

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    I think this is probably a very rational approach. We should just dispense with the game and acknowledge it going to happen.

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    Rational maybe but practical? Not so much. The logistics of running an international stage race are a teeny bit bigger than running a body building contest. I suppose we should start a juiced NFL, NBA and MLB also?
    Ain't gonna happen.
    Last edited by whoda*huck; 07-17-2012 at 06:14 PM.

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    Sosa and McGuire both cheated in the quest to break the single season HR record and everyone knows it. Any body going after them ?[/QUOTE]

    And don't forget Babe Ruth. Maybe they can exhume him and conduct forensic testing for traces of steroids. I'll bet that would really make the career of some USDA agent.

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    Why turn it into a circus act ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by whodaphuck View Post
    Rational maybe but practical? Not so much. The logistics of running an international stage race are a teeny bit bigger than running a body building contest. I suppose we should also start a juiced NFL, NBA and MLB also?
    Ain't gonna happen.
    I think it's generally acknowledged and not talked about in the NFL, it's been that way for a long, long time. MLB is cleaned up as far as I know. You don't see the slug fests or players with giant arms anymore. Don't know about the NBA, don't care about the NBA.

  168. #168
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    If Lance doped, they all did! Let's join hands and don't forget guys, dues to Livestrong this month are overdue. Remember, we got our superman in trouble with USADA. So keep fighting! And keep up the good work! Deny, misinform, obfuscate, if all else fails... Everyone does it. Lance is still a winner. And we still can scam the donors that would've given to a real cancer research supporting organization!

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    I can't believe what a sh*t fest this thread has turned into. It's all your fault bee, get the hell out of here you dirt bag.

    Truth is Lance did dope but that doesn't make him different from most of the other racers. He is not a cheater if everyone else is doping as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whodaphuck View Post
    Rational maybe but practical? Not so much. The logistics of running an international stage race are a teeny bit bigger than running a body building contest. I suppose we should also start a juiced NFL, NBA and MLB also?
    Ain't gonna happen.
    It happens in just about every pro sport unfortunately.

    If you want to hang with the best you have to dope because that's the only way they are the best.

  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Addict View Post
    It happens in just about every pro sport unfortunately.

    If you want to hang with the best you have to dope because that's the only way they are the best.
    Yes, every sports halls of fame should be loaded with asterisks.

    (DOH! Just also noticed the redundant also too as well...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Addict View Post
    It happens in just about every pro sport unfortunately.

    If you want to hang with the best you have to dope because that's the only way they are the best.
    Untrue.

    First, you make statements like; "you have to dope" and; "that's the only way they are the best". The only way, as if there has never been an athlete who was the best that didn't cheat. Why would you make such a statement you know to be false? Let me introduce you to Bob Beamon...

    <iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DEt_Xgg8dzc?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    Care to retract your previous statement that insults thousands and thousands of incredible athletes who competed clean, and competed at the highest level?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Addict View Post
    He is not a cheater if everyone else is doping as well.
    Perhaps we can get MTBR to start a new forum for people with particularly low IQ's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    Untrue.

    First, you make statements like; "you have to dope" and; "that's the only way they are the best". The only way, as if there has never been an athlete who was the best that didn't cheat. Why would you make such a statement you know to be false? Let me introduce you to Bob Beamon...

    <iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DEt_Xgg8dzc?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    Care to retract your previous statement that insults thousands and thousands of incredible athletes who competed clean, and competed at the highest level?
    I'm not impressed with your little video from 44 years ago. Now a days professional sports work differently. You're living several decades behind old timer.

  175. #175
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    I'm totally in agreement with Prodigal Son. The only people who are so adamantly pro-drug, are the ones that are still protecting Armstrong and his tainted wins.

    I don't want to see sport boil down to who has the most money for the best drugs. This isn't the purpose to see which Pharmaceutical companies are the best and who can pay off the most corrupt individuals and politicians. Armstrong is so corrupt, that he is using money that was raised through Livestrong, money that was supposed to help cancer kids... Armstrong is using it to pay for lobbyists to pander to politicians to help him discredit USADA. That is despicable and disgusting behavior.

    Sport is beautiful in its purest form. Drugs have no place in sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    Drugs have no place in sport.
    They're not drugs, they're performance enhancement supplements.

    And maximum performance always has a place in sport.

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    "Armstrong is so corrupt, that he is using money that was raised through Livestrong, money that was supposed to help cancer kids... Armstrong is using it to pay for lobbyists to pander to politicians to help him discredit USADA. That is despicable and disgusting behavior."

    Do you have some proof to support these allegations - such as a credible article or something? Or are we supposed to just take your word for it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Addict View Post
    I'm not impressed with your little video from 44 years ago. Now a days professional sports work differently. You're living several decades behind old timer.
    You don't need to be impressed, despite the fact Beamon's jump was one of the single greatest track and field achievements of all time. What you need to do is type out the following words;

    Earlier I stated;
    If you want to hang with the best you have to dope because that's the only way they are the best.
    I was wrong. I insulted many great athletes with this statement. It was foolish of me to make a blanket statement accusing all great athletes of doping. I knoww nothing about most of the great athletes in the world and simply like typing nonsense on an internet forum where there is zero accountability. Please forgive me.

    Now, was that so difficult?

    And, by the way, todays track athletes you probably claim are all doping, cannot long jump within a foot of what Bob Beamon jumped in Mexico City in 1968. Can I get an amen for the great and clean athletes of the world?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    I knoww nothing about most of the great athletes in the world and simply like typing nonsense on an internet forum where there is zero accountability. Please forgive me.
    I forgive you.
    Last edited by Trail Addict; 07-17-2012 at 11:16 PM.

  180. #180
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    Armstrong is just trying to tie up things and sidestep the normal arbitration process by contacting politicians to try to subvert the system. It makes you wonder what sort of activity was undertaken to get the higher ups in government to get the Federal Investigation dropped.

    The latest use of Livestrong lobbyists to pander to politicians on Capitol Hill for Armstrong's own use against USADA is downright pathetic. Disgusting. To use the money that was supposed to be raised to "fight cancer" and to use it for his own personal defense against USADA is just plain wrong. The guy is less than scum.

    There's Barry Bonds. There's Ben Johnson. There's all the cheats in sport. Armstrong is several notches below them for his dastardly acts in stealing. Livestrong is a marketing company. There is no cancer research going on. It's Armstrong's personal piggy bank.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    I'm totally in agreement with Prodigal Son. The only people who are so adamantly pro-drug, are the ones that are still protecting Armstrong and his tainted wins.

    I don't want to see sport boil down to who has the most money for the best drugs. This isn't the purpose to see which Pharmaceutical companies are the best and who can pay off the most corrupt individuals and politicians. Armstrong is so corrupt, that he is using money that was raised through Livestrong, money that was supposed to help cancer kids... Armstrong is using it to pay for lobbyists to pander to politicians to help him discredit USADA. That is despicable and disgusting behavior.

    Sport is beautiful in its purest form. Drugs have no place in sport.
    Hmm not true, I think you confuse "pro-drug" with pragmatism. I also think you are idealistic and not realistic. As much as you want things to be a certain way the cat is out of the bag and big money is involved. One way or another PEDs are going to make there way to athletes helping keep top athletes on top. All the idealism in the world will not change this reality. I seriously doubt even aggressive testing will work. I think that it will just result in the pharmaceutical industry stepping up the development of undetectable PEDs. The cat and mouse game will continue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
    Hmm not true, I think you confuse "pro-drug" with pragmatism. I also think you are idealistic and not realistic. As much as you want things to be a certain way the cat is out of the bag and big money is involved. One way or another PEDs are going to make there way to athletes helping keep top athletes on top. All the idealism in the world will not change this reality. I seriously doubt even aggressive testing will work. I think that it will just result in the pharmaceutical industry stepping up the development of undetectable PEDs. The cat and mouse game will continue.
    Since when was idealism dismissed as a redundant and worthless concept? The day we bow to pressure of 'pragmatism' is the day we all devalue our lives and our ideals. I think authorities should do everything possible to try and clean up sports, and inevitably there will be unpopular fallout. But, think of the alternative: a bunch of PED'd up, roided up, bionic'd up, fakes, with sponsorship from big pharma companies that takes the human element out of the running. I have to agree with Bee on this one, that sport should be pure and clean. Whether Lance is innocent or not is immaterial, and all posted here is supposition and opinion.
    Oh, Beamon's jump was at a very high altitude, so there is that to consider... not trying to do him down, just saying...
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Since when was idealism dismissed as a redundant and worthless concept? The day we bow to pressure of 'pragmatism' is the day we all devalue our lives and our ideals. I think authorities should do everything possible to try and clean up sports, and inevitably there will be unpopular fallout. But, think of the alternative: a bunch of PED'd up, roided up, bionic'd up, fakes, with sponsorship from big pharma companies that takes the human element out of the running. I have to agree with Bee on this one, that sport should be pure and clean. Whether Lance is innocent or not is immaterial, and all posted here is supposition and opinion.
    Oh, Beamon's jump was at a very high altitude, so there is that to consider... not trying to do him down, just saying...
    What a breath of fresh air that would be ! Sadly, it seems like that will never happen.
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    Bob Beamon used roids. I read about it last week in the National Enquirer.

    Those of you in dreamland who wish sports would be pure....nevermind, there's just no hope for you. You're looking for the perfect world that will never exist. In my best Bill Burr stoner voice, "But does that mean we shouldn't keep trying to get there, mayan?" Yes, that's exactly what it means.

    As long as there have been sports, there have been athletes attempting to gain an advantage over his/her competitors, legally and illegally. Every sport has cheaters. Some athletes/coaches claim that if you're not cheating then you're not trying. Again, it comes down to improving the likelihood of catching all cheaters. Unless you improve detection to 100%, you will have cheaters.

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    Armstrong supporters are pro-drug. It's the only way they can argue that their superman is better than everyone else. It's the onlyn way that they can say that he didn't cheat.

    Armstrong had access to and used EPO, testosterone, HGH, and a whole slew of drugs to help him cheat to every single one of those Tour wins. He's used money to pay off testers, sports officials, and hired lawyers against people. He's verbally threatened people, had physical confrontations with others, intimidated witnesses, ruined people's businesses, deceived cancer patients into thinking he was clean. All the while building a huge empire with with religious, cult-like employees and volunteers who know nothing of his despicable ways, or actively choose to ignore it and attack those who he claims as his enemies.

  186. #186
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    Holy crap, the train jumped the track and plowed into a crowd of school children and nuns. I canít stop watching! These threads always end the same. Well, right up until youíre seen enough burning bodies and move on to the next thing.

    Canít people just agree that this is a lose-lose situation. We donít spend this much money tracking down murderers. The USADA will find him guilty despite any actual facts and in 1 month nobody is going to care. Well, the people who actually do benefit from Livestrong might care, nobody can deny that they do at least some good, maybe not the cancer research you are looking for but tens of thousands use it for inspiration. OK, and the people that want to see how Lance can do in the Ironman, they will care for a while. But, honestly, does anybody really care that Alex ZŁlle would have won the 1999 tour? Because he probably doped too. And so on and so on.

    Spot test athletes to keep everybody basically on the same playing field, repeat. If the test comes out negative make a better test.

    Like everybody else, I'm rambling.

  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Since when was idealism dismissed as a redundant and worthless concept? The day we bow to pressure of 'pragmatism' is the day we all devalue our lives and our ideals. I think authorities should do everything possible to try and clean up sports, and inevitably there will be unpopular fallout. But, think of the alternative: a bunch of PED'd up, roided up, bionic'd up, fakes, with sponsorship from big pharma companies that takes the human element out of the running. I have to agree with Bee on this one, that sport should be pure and clean. Whether Lance is innocent or not is immaterial, and all posted here is supposition and opinion.
    Oh, Beamon's jump was at a very high altitude, so there is that to consider... not trying to do him down, just saying...
    Beautiful comment.

    Everyone competed at high altitude in the '68 Olympics, yet nobody else had the type of performance Bob Beamon had. He jumped 8.90 meters. Silver and Bronze medal performances were 8.19 and 8.16. Beamon jumped 29' 2". Second place jumped 26' 10". The largest margin of victory ever. Ralph Boston got the Bronze medal and was the previous world record holder, at 8.35m. He jumped under that mark while at altitude in Mexico City. The other record setting performances on the track were more a result of the all-weather synthetic track surface, being used for the first time. It was lightning fast compared to the old cinder tracks used previously.

    There is such a long list of athletes competing clean that perform at astonishing levels. There are runners who run the 5000 meters, and are able to run three consecutive miles at just over 4 minute per mile pace. Look at those marathon runners. Ever watch those downhill mountain bike competiitions. Crazy skills. The Great Divide ride from Canada to Mexico is being ridden in something close to two weeks. the ride across America came through Flagstaff a couple weeks ago and those guys can get from coast to coast in under 10 days. Did you see Janet Evens competing at the Olympic Trials in swimming? She didn't make it but she is over 40 years old and looked great. Some athletes are not lured by the 10% (+/-) they might get by doping. We should honor those athletes.

  188. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Since when was idealism dismissed as a redundant and worthless concept? The day we bow to pressure of 'pragmatism' is the day we all devalue our lives and our ideals. I think authorities should do everything possible to try and clean up sports, and inevitably there will be unpopular fallout. But, think of the alternative: a bunch of PED'd up, roided up, bionic'd up, fakes, with sponsorship from big pharma companies that takes the human element out of the running. I have to agree with Bee on this one, that sport should be pure and clean. Whether Lance is innocent or not is immaterial, and all posted here is supposition and opinion.
    Oh, Beamon's jump was at a very high altitude, so there is that to consider... not trying to do him down, just saying...
    I'm not trying to be rude, but pragmatists get **** done, idealists sit around coffee shops dreaming of the way things should be.

  189. #189
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    Lance will tell dying cancer kids to believe in miracles. He did. He fought cancer. He won the biggest bike race. He tricked them as he watched them suffer. And he tricked their parents, and he tricked those vulnerable to giving money to his sham organization Livestrong where he uses money to pay for lobbyists to pander to our elected officials in an attempt to subvert USADA. Livestrong does nothing for cancer research.

    Armstrong has become filthy rich off the lies to the innocent. All lies. All cheating. The evidence is overwhelming, from testimonies to positive tests to secret donations to lab testers and sport governing officials. His supporters, the most zealous fans know this. That's why they cannot make their argument from an anti-drug standpoint any further. Their only recourse is making a pro-drug argument to the masses.

  190. #190
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    I was a fan, but if Armstrong is found guilty, I think they should throw the book at him. But I also think that they should throw the book at all his former team mates, how can they be allowed to continue to race, when they know how to cheat the test?

  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
    I'm not trying to be rude, but pragmatists get **** done, idealists sit around coffee shops dreaming of the way things should be.
    Jesus Christ was an idealist. He changed the world, creating an opportunity of salvation to all, and never spent time sitting around coffee shops dreaming of the way things should be.

    On the other hand, history is full of pragmatists like Neville Chamberlin, who allowed Germany to start WWII (54 million dead). Bill Clinton was a pragmatist. Decided to sit out the fighting in Rwanda (around 700,000 murdered in just over a month). The majority of the U.S. Supreme Court were pragmatists when deciding Roe v Wade (between 70 million and 100 million dead unborn babies).

    Pragmatists sure do get things done.

  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    Jesus Christ was an idealistMaybe but he had a team of pragmatist to push his religion forward. He changed the world, creating an opportunity of salvation to all, and never spent time sitting around coffee shops dreaming of the way things should be.Not really the people around him did that he died an early death and was relatively unknown at that time

    On the other hand, history is full of pragmatists like Neville Chamberlin, who allowed Germany to start WWII (54 million dead).Not a pragmistist at all a classic dreamer what was it Peace in Our Time Bill Clinton was a pragmatist. Decided to sit out the fighting in Rwanda (around 700,000 murdered in just over a month).How do you know intervention would not have caused more loss of life The majority of the U.S. Supreme Court were pragmatists when deciding Roe v Wade (between 70 million and 100 million dead unborn babies).Course no one had an abortion before the decision either

    Pragmatists sure do get things done.
    Yup still dreaming.

  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by gobullit View Post
    I was a fan, but if Armstrong is found guilty, I think they should throw the book at him. But I also think that they should throw the book at all his former team mates, how can they be allowed to continue to race, when they know how to cheat the test?
    Schelck just tested postive and will be back.....after his suspension.

  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    Lance will tell dying cancer kids to believe in miracles. He did. He fought cancer. He won the biggest bike race. He tricked them as he watched them suffer. And he tricked their parents, and he tricked those vulnerable to giving money to his sham organization Livestrong where he uses money to pay for lobbyists to pander to our elected officials in an attempt to subvert USADA. Livestrong does nothing for cancer research.

    Armstrong has become filthy rich off the lies to the innocent. All lies. All cheating. The evidence is overwhelming, from testimonies to positive tests to secret donations to lab testers and sport governing officials. His supporters, the most zealous fans know this. That's why they cannot make their argument from an anti-drug standpoint any further. Their only recourse is making a pro-drug argument to the masses.
    See this is the part I don't get. He still beat cancer. He no matter what happens won the biggest bike race, multiple times. So just how did he trick parents? How did he trick kids? Your thesis is completely illogical. I think the world must be a very disappointing place for you or you really do walk around with rose colored glasses on. Honestly the worse thing that comes out of this is he is symbolically stripped of title (although he and everybody knows he won and nothing will change that), gets a little public embarrassment, we discuss it for a few weeks, everybody forgets and life moves on. Lance is still rich doing what he wants to do. The vast majority of the public still remember him for seven wins. He continues life and so do we. Why waste the money and effort to chase him down? The time to do it was when he was racing.

  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Since when was idealism dismissed as a redundant and worthless concept? The day we bow to pressure of 'pragmatism' is the day we all devalue our lives and our ideals.Not at all we have been pragmatic since we started standing upright I think authorities should do everything possible to try and clean up sports, and inevitably there will be unpopular fallout. But, think of the alternative: a bunch of PED'd up, roided up, bionic'd up, fakes, with sponsorship from big pharma companies that takes the human element out of the running. I have to agree with Bee on this one, that sport should be pure and clean.So if I have Asthma I chould not be allowed to use my puffer Whether Lance is innocent or not is immaterial, and all posted here is supposition and opinion.
    Oh, Beamon's jump was at a very high altitude, so there is that to consider... not trying to do him down, just saying...
    Idealism is generally promoted by those without a clue.

  196. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    Jesus Christ was an idealist. He changed the world, creating an opportunity of salvation to all, and never spent time sitting around coffee shops dreaming of the way things should be.

    On the other hand, history is full of pragmatists like Neville Chamberlin, who allowed Germany to start WWII (54 million dead). Bill Clinton was a pragmatist. Decided to sit out the fighting in Rwanda (around 700,000 murdered in just over a month). The majority of the U.S. Supreme Court were pragmatists when deciding Roe v Wade (between 70 million and 100 million dead unborn babies).

    Pragmatists sure do get things done.
    Wow man, just wow. I really don't want to degenerate this discussion down into religion, but you really need to study the history of Christianity. Your view of Christianity is very idealistic and flies in the face of the Crusades, the dark ages and a whole bunch of other horrible things done in the name of Jesus Christ and Christianity.

    Neville Chamberlin, touche, you got me there. Although I would argue he was more of a pacifist than a pragmatist. I think the pragmatists said like it or not we are going to have to go to war.

  197. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedwards1000 View Post
    Holy crap, the train jumped the track and plowed into a crowd of school children and nuns. I canít stop watching! These threads always end the same. Well, right up until youíre seen enough burning bodies and move on to the next thing.

    Canít people just agree that this is a lose-lose situation. We donít spend this much money tracking down murderers. The USADA will find him guilty despite any actual facts and in 1 month nobody is going to care. Well, the people who actually do benefit from Livestrong might care, nobody can deny that they do at least some good, maybe not the cancer research you are looking for but tens of thousands use it for inspiration. OK, and the people that want to see how Lance can do in the Ironman, they will care for a while. But, honestly, does anybody really care that Alex ZŁlle would have won the 1999 tour? Because he probably doped too. And so on and so on.

    Spot test athletes to keep everybody basically on the same playing field, repeat. If the test comes out negative make a better test.

    Like everybody else, I'm rambling.
    This. The Government has not tried or convicted a single CEO for causing the worst financial crisis in history, but they have spent millions of dollars and countless man hours pursuing professional athletes for using "performance enhancing drugs"...
    Last edited by jerry68; 07-18-2012 at 10:19 AM. Reason: auto-correct iPhail
    Pisgah Area SORBA

    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    ... your idea of technical may be much different than other peoples idea of technical.

  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCanyonTrailJunkie View Post
    "Armstrong is so corrupt, that he is using money that was raised through Livestrong, money that was supposed to help cancer kids... Armstrong is using it to pay for lobbyists to pander to politicians to help him discredit USADA. That is despicable and disgusting behavior."

    Do you have some proof to support these allegations - such as a credible article or something? Or are we supposed to just take your word for it?
    Just google "Lance Armstrong lobbyist" under Google news, and then click the link there. It will let you see the whole article.

    A few other points:
    USADA is not "the government"

    Why wait till now? : most likely they acted when enough evidence became available. Lance being out of the sport long enough might mean people are not as afraid to talk as they were in the past? Others (Stephanie McIlvain, from Oakley) have lied for him in the past (google the SCA insurance case).

    Why "go after him"? : It's no more "going after" him then the cops "going after" us when we speed and get a speeding ticket. USADA is doing their job due to overwhelming evidence being uncovered due to the timing of other events. The delay from crime to punishment is unfortunate, but better late than never.

    It's not a perfect world, but that's no reason to give up on everything and let it go to @#$%^ that much faster.

  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerry68 View Post
    This. The Government has not tried or convicted a single CEO for causing the worst financial crisis in history, but they have spent millions of dollars and countless man hours pursuing professional athletes for using "performance enhancing drugs"...



    They can't/won't prosecute them. There are too many legislators that were and are complicit in the financial collapse. Our government facilitated it by and in large. You want Justice? Start by voting out all incumbents.

  200. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardtail05 View Post
    Just google "Lance Armstrong lobbyist" under Google news, and then click the link there. It will let you see the whole article.

    A few other points:
    USADA is not "the government"

    Why wait till now? : most likely they acted when enough evidence became available. Lance being out of the sport long enough might mean people are not as afraid to talk as they were in the past? Others (Stephanie McIlvain, from Oakley) have lied for him in the past (google the SCA insurance case).

    Why "go after him"? : It's no more "going after" him then the cops "going after" us when we speed and get a speeding ticket. USADA is doing their job due to overwhelming evidence being uncovered due to the timing of other events. The delay from crime to punishment is unfortunate, but better late than never.

    It's not a perfect world, but that's no reason to give up on everything and let it go to @#$%^ that much faster.
    Do you get a speeding ticket if the cops found the image of you from an automatic speed trap three years after the fact? Nope, statute of limitations is up. It's like a witch hunt that never ends. I don't think this is good for anybody or the sport.

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