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    Leiphemimer is riding in the TDF right now. Is he gonna admit he doped while in the middle of a race?

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    I sincerely wish they'd leave the man alone. This is nothing more than some bureaucrat trying to take Lance down to make himself feel important. What crap.
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    If they want to get me to watch road racing then let them all dope it up and get rid of the damn radios! Then we would have some exciting stages, as of right now its just boring .....

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    honestly...who cares?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toff View Post
    If they want to get me to watch road racing then let them all dope it up and get rid of the damn radios! Then we would have some exciting stages, as of right now its just boring .....
    This.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    ... your idea of technical may be much different than other peoples idea of technical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Univega777 View Post
    honestly...who cares?



    Given the number of threads about this subject there are plenty of people who do care. Lance is a cycling icon, and people care a great deal no matter which side of the subject they fall on.

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    I think everybody Lance competed against was doping and before Lance, Miguel Indurain probably doped his way to 5 tour wins! Why go after him now? Probably because everyone is done making their money off of his excellence & it's safe to talk about it now because NOW we're going to try & clean up a 20+year old money making mess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Given the number of threads about this subject there are plenty of people who do care. Lance is a cycling icon, and people care a great deal no matter which side of the subject they fall on.
    side of what subject? i could care less if he doped. the guy is old. old athletes start breaking down and cant perform like they use to. who cares if the geezer isnt going to be able to compete anymore. thats what happens when you get cancer and beat the **** out of yourself. i Loved Brett Favre but i didnt care that he got old and retired. cause he was fricken OLD! and thats what happens when you get old.

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    [/QUOTE]

    that's a moonlander, right? fun bike. doping by grown men in road racing..whatever. the use of the race radio is worse for the actual racing..hey, somebody tell me when i need to be attentive, ok? it has completely watered down the excitement and aggression and surprise of watching a race. roubaix and flanders are the only races i watch cuz they are the most unpredictable because of terrain.

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    I agree with the "no radios". What kind of crap is that? Hell, get rid of the stupid teams too. Let's find out who can..............RIDE! While we're at it, let's get France to widen their roads and cut some of the trees back at least a foot off the roads ...oh wait,this is a mountain bike forum. what was I thinking.
    Get rid of the stupid chase cars and half the motorcycles. I mean just because it's the "Tour de France" doesn't mean you can't make things safer. Can you imagine the furor over safety and liability if this race were in the U.S.? The media would be all over it. But since it's Fraaahhhns, it's OK.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Univega777 View Post
    side of what subject? i could care less if he doped. the guy is old. old athletes start breaking down and cant perform like they use to. who cares if the geezer isnt going to be able to compete anymore. thats what happens when you get cancer and beat the **** out of yourself. i Loved Brett Favre but i didnt care that he got old and retired. cause he was fricken OLD! and thats what happens when you get old.



    For someone who doesn't care, you sure post a lot of words.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Univega777 View Post
    ...the guy is old. old athletes..., ...he got old and retired. ...he was fricken OLD! ...when you get old.
    So, I get the feeling that you are about 17 y/o?

    (edit) - Well, yes it appears that Mr. Univega is a few years younger than me, and that is fine, not a problem or issue. But, unfortunately (and not age related), if you look back at his posts, you'll find that he suffers from early onset troll-ism. It's not too late, he is young, and could turn himself around.
    Last edited by El Salt; 07-06-2012 at 08:03 AM.
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    I wager 6 Powerbar wrappers that he is closer to 15 y/o.

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    not a LA fanboy but i sincerely hope this has a broader purpose beyond him & positive effect in the end for road racing. I doubt it.

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    Last night on NBC sports they were speaking on this subject and talked about a press release given from USADA stating that all those names are just speculation, that no deals have been made, no agreements to testify, and that any speculation on the matter just causes false rumors and keeps the matter from being resolved quickly. Who knows what's true, what's cover up, and what's a shameful media attempt to boost ratings. All I know is I'd rather be riding than stuck at the office BSing about who's on drugs
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Salt View Post
    So, I get the feeling that you are about 17 y/o?
    For an old guy, he is still a threat to younger professional athletes. Afterall, he did just set a course record in his last pro 1/2 ironman a few months ago.

    Oh and sorry El Salt. I captured the wrong quote

  18. #18
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    Cheap accusations are one thing, but no one has been tried and convicted.

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    The notion that Armstrong, or any other pro road racer was or is clean is almost charmingly naive, kind of like believing in the tooth fairy. There hasn't been a single clean tour finisher in the last 30 years. All pro athletes use PEDs and cycling is dirtier than most sports. Even at a D1 college level I'd bet clean athletes are rare, and the ones that don't play much.

    Get over it. When there's that much money and fame available, there is always going to be incentive to cheat, so the guys that are the best at cheating are going to be the best at the sport.
    Pretending you don't believe it doesn't change anything.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by az.mtns View Post
    i wager 6 powerbar wrappers that he is closer to 15 y/o.

    this thread has survived 20 posts and no lockdown. Whoa!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    For an old guy, he is still a threat to professional athletes. Afterall, he did just set a course record in his last pro 1/2 ironman a few months ago.
    I'll second that! Hey, and talk about "old guys", look up Ned Overend if you want to see crazy fitness in an "old guy" that is primarily a MTBer.

    The Lance thing is a tuff cookie. I'm not really a roadie either, I do own a nice road bike, but it doesn't get much play. Anyway, when LA was winning all the TDFs, I was glued to the TV, web, and everything else. It was so inspiring to watch him [LA] drop people like they were standing still. My fave, and I think so many others, is "the look", where he played with, and destroyed Jan Ullrich on the L'Alpe d'Huez.

    But, now that the excitement of an American dominating the sport of cycling has subsided, I look back at that pure domination, knowing that so many of the other elite of that era have been caught or have confessed to doping. Knowing this, and remembering the way LA killed them all, I honestly no longer think he was "clean". Yes, as he likes to point out, never tested positive, and I can't explain that.

    It will truly be a sad day for cycling, and American cycling, if and when LA falls.
    Last edited by El Salt; 07-06-2012 at 10:20 AM. Reason: My Cr@ppy spelling!
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    Logic strongly suggests that he was doping--ie you have to somewhat suspend belief to think that it's possible to win 7 straight TDF w/o doping when virtually every main competitor was doping. It becomes worth chasing when you make 10s of millions off that success.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joules View Post
    The notion that Armstrong, or any other pro road racer was or is clean is almost charmingly naive, kind of like believing in the tooth fairy. There hasn't been a single clean tour finisher in the last 30 years. All pro athletes use PEDs and cycling is dirtier than most sports. Even at a D1 college level I'd bet clean athletes are rare, and the ones that don't play much.

    Get over it. When there's that much money and fame available, there is always going to be incentive to cheat, so the guys that are the best at cheating are going to be the best at the sport.
    Pretending you don't believe it doesn't change anything.
    Sad, but I'm sure all true.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    For an old guy, he is still a threat to younger professional athletes. Afterall, he did just set a course record in his last pro 1/2 ironman a few months ago.

    Oh and sorry El Salt. I captured the wrong quote
    All good, I knew where you were going.
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    it takes 4-6 hours of riding to complete most of the stages. even if someone was doping i think the effects of the doping would wear off after a couple of hours of riding. lance armstrong won 7 tdf's. doesn't matter if he did dope or not. he still won 7 tdf's

    are they going to go after phelps gold medals next for doing dope?
    Phelps acknowledges photo showing Olympic swimming star smoking from marijuana pipe - ESPN

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    I think the TDF has lost a lot because they keep dragging this stuff up.

    Who wants to watch a race where they routinely expel tons of the main people? Just shut the thing down and call it quits.

    It's as bad as when they spent all their time smearing Graeme Obree. The world of pro cycling is probably the second least interesting in sports (following only PGA).
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    Quote Originally Posted by 29ernb View Post
    doesn't matter if he did dope or not. he still won 7 tdf's
    Well, no it sort of does matter. If everyone was doping, then no it would not matter. Not everyone was doping (I think?), because it is illegal. So for them, there was little chance to be competitive. If jumping in the team car, and being driven to the head of the field was something that you could do without being seen, some might do that too, but obviously that would be seen, unlike getting the needle in the team bus or at the hotel.

    Phelps? No, he was just stupid. To be in the lime light like he was, that was just a dumb move. No, they would not take his medals away, smoking weed from a bong never improved anyone's performance. Maybe in their own mind, but not in the "real" world.
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    i was just kidding about phelps. smoking weed would only make him slower and eat more bags of cheetos. but with him winning so many gold medals maybe other sports are getting away with doping too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Salt View Post
    Yes, as he likes to point out, never tested positive, and I can't explain that.
    We all know the French are still out to get Lance......

    Two ways to look at Lance's statement that he never tested positive. Either he never took performance enhancing drugs or doped, or he never tested positive for banned substances. Meaning he doped on something that wasn't on the banned substances list. So what if all those guys testify that Lance doped. He was either too smart to get caught or was taking some wonder drug that wasn't/isn't yet on the list of banned substances.

    IMHO it's really poor sportsmanship to testify against someone after the fact, after they withstood repeated testing that didn't yield any positive results. Those who are testifying will cause some serious damage to the sport. Let's face it, they're all "doping" to some degree, might not be banned substances but after the inhuman efforts day after day they get medical treatment for recovery, at least IV's and such. Sow where do you draw the line on what is performance enhancing or not?

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    Tours de France? Tell eem we already got one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuffink View Post


    Tours de France? Tell eem we already got one.
    Funniest, most apropos comment & photo yet! It's gotten that silly.
    We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 29ernb View Post
    i was just kidding about phelps. smoking weed would only make him slower and eat more bags of cheetos. but with him winning so many gold medals maybe other sports are getting away with doping too.
    I wouldn't doubt it, doping in other sports? H3ll, look at baseball. Football? You think (and I realize you know / think it is true here too) pro football isn't on the juice?

    Again, that is my point, and I think many others feel the same too. Let the sauce be legal, put it in the rule book, then it will be up to each athlete to decide. Yes, it may kill you in the long run (hey, look at what they now know about repeated head injury to FB players, look at boxers...), but it will be a choice you have to make. Take the TDF, no one says you have to go ride your bike and train for 8 - 10 - 12 hrs a day, but if you don't, there is no way you can compete.

    Phelps? Well, maybe its just my own foolishness, but I think if you are in the spot light (sports star, movie star, etc.), you do need to be aware of your standard of life. The reason you are where you are, is because you are good at something, AND people are willing to come watch ($$$) you do it. And, in the case of an Olympian, well the whole world is watching you.

    I guess I'm just naive to some things, and you'd think after all these years I'd have smartened up?
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Salt View Post
    So, I get the feeling that you are about 17 y/o?

    (edit) - Well, yes it appears that Mr. Univega is a few years younger than me, and that is fine, not a problem or issue. But, unfortunately (and not age related), if you look back at his posts, you'll find that he suffers from early onset troll-ism. It's not too late, he is young, and could turn himself around.
    actually im 27. and how i am i trolling? the heart and muscles all start a much steeper decline after age 35 to 40. big woop an old guy's bicycle career might be over. if you were a fan im sure you got your moneys worth.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Salt View Post
    It was so inspiring to watch him [LA] drop people like they were standing still. My fave, and I think so many others, is "the look", where he played with, and destroyed Juan Ullrich on the L'Alpe d'Huez.
    Ahh, yes. Jan's lesser known Mexican cousin

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    Quote Originally Posted by j0hn View Post
    Ahh, yes. Jan's lesser known Mexican cousin
    Oh heck! That's what I get for typing too fast! I'd better fix that one!
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    i think it's a bunch of crap. and i think the bikers who are going to "testify" are doing it for their own fame.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by B-Mac View Post
    I sincerely wish they'd leave the man alone. This is nothing more than some bureaucrat trying to take Lance down to make himself feel important. What crap.
    QFT.

    + some revenge game.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Salt View Post
    Well, no it sort of does matter. If everyone was doping, then no it would not matter.
    Well, it would sort of still matter, as people respond differently to doping and every kind of substance.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by 29ernb View Post
    it takes 4-6 hours of riding to complete most of the stages. even if someone was doping i think the effects of the doping would wear off after a couple of hours of riding. lance armstrong won 7 tdf's. doesn't matter if he did dope or not. he still won 7 tdf's

    are they going to go after phelps gold medals next for doing dope?
    Phelps acknowledges photo showing Olympic swimming star smoking from marijuana pipe - ESPN


    Now I see why 29ernb starts threads and only includes a link, not posting anything about his personal thoughts about the thread he starts

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    It seems that because Lance won so much they really want him. Seems that
    most everyone else doped also, but that doesn't seem to be a big deal.

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    I love watching the Tour. At least the two-hour daily recap. I ended a relationship with a gorgeous redhead because she wouldn't let me watch the recap...and I don't even have a road bike. Actually, it's the only sporting event I ever watch. Have no interest in football, baseball, or any other professional sport. None. Zero. I am completely asportic.

    I also don't care one iota about the lives, struggles, and stories of athletes including Lance Armstrong and am as sick of "Livestrong" and his beer commercials as I am about the doping question. The energy people put into their adulation and hate is amazing. Like all sports, cycling is just a "kid's game" performed by adults.

    Maybe I'll watch the Olympics this year

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    I love watching the Tour. At least the two-hour daily recap. I ended a relationship with a gorgeous redhead because she wouldn't let me watch the recap...and I don't even have a road bike.
    That's... an interesting order of priorities...
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  43. #43
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    Eh, redheads are possessed by the Devil ,

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Eh, redheads are possessed by the Devil ,
    You have no idea.

  45. #45
    heaven help me
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    I like the direction this thread is going, redheads.......devil.......Gillian Anderson......cardboard shorts.

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    Wait a minute. You lost me at cardboard shorts.
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  47. #47
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    I see short attention span is alive and well...oh, cows!
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  48. #48
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    Shazoooooo!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 29ernb View Post
    it takes 4-6 hours of riding to complete most of the stages. even if someone was doping i think the effects of the doping would wear off after a couple of hours of riding. lance armstrong won 7 tdf's. doesn't matter if he did dope or not. he still won 7 tdf's
    This is problem number 1. I'm starting to wonder if you A) even know what the term "doping" deals with, or B) if you know anything about it, even at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kiloman View Post
    We all know the French are still out to get Lance......

    Two ways to look at Lance's statement that he never tested positive. Either he never took performance enhancing drugs or doped, or he never tested positive for banned substances. Meaning he doped on something that wasn't on the banned substances list. So what if all those guys testify that Lance doped. He was either too smart to get caught or was taking some wonder drug that wasn't/isn't yet on the list of banned substances.

    IMHO it's really poor sportsmanship to testify against someone after the fact, after they withstood repeated testing that didn't yield any positive results. Those who are testifying will cause some serious damage to the sport. Let's face it, they're all "doping" to some degree, might not be banned substances but after the inhuman efforts day after day they get medical treatment for recovery, at least IV's and such. Sow where do you draw the line on what is performance enhancing or not?
    Lance did test positive.

    Google: Lance Tour of Switzerland 2001 EPO test coverup.
    also backdated TUE corticoid

    It's the doping and lying that damages the sport, not those trying to enforce the rules.

    If anyone really wants to educate themselvs a bit on this topic, as opposed to just parroting what is said in the mainstream media, here are a few links:

    Michael Anderson's Testimony On Lance Armstrong Doping

    Ashenden: Understanding USADA

    www.cyclingnews.presents ...

    Strock Speaks
    Un-named coach is a very well known coach out of Colorado Springs (yes, it is him, settlement was sealed to protect his image)

    Anti-Doping Officials Step Up Cycling Oversight - WSJ.com



    and if you really have some time on your hands:

    From Lance to Landis: Inside the American Doping Controversy at the Tour De ... - David Walsh - Google Books

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLMike View Post


    Now I see why 29ernb starts threads and only includes a link, not posting anything about his personal thoughts about the thread he starts
    you did not read all the posts, you don't know what you are talking about

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    Quote Originally Posted by hardtail05 View Post
    Lance did test positive.

    Google: Lance Tour of Switzerland 2001 EPO test coverup.
    also backdated TUE corticoid
    Who cares? If you are so obsessed with investigating past TDF races then I'm sure you would also know that most racers dope like there's no tomorrow.

    The French just want to make it look like Lance was the only one who did it because they are frustrated that an American has put their POS country to shame 7 times in a row.

    The French despise Americans with a passion. Hell, if you go to France and say you're American they will treat you like dirt. I'm serious, France can go to Hell. They are a rude obnoxious and arrogant country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark! View Post
    This is problem number 1. I'm starting to wonder if you A) even know what the term "doping" deals with, or B) if you know anything about it, even at all.
    i know what bicyclist have done for doping. blood transfusions, performance enhancing drugs etc..

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by 29ernb View Post
    you did not read all the posts, you don't know what you are talking about
    Yes, thats it.. I dont know what im talking about..

    What I find amazing is all those Body Builders that dope... 4 hours later when the dope has wore off theyre completely weak and unable to lift any kind of weight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FLMike View Post
    Yes, thats it.. I dont know what im talking about..

    What I find amazing is all those Body Builders that dope... 4 hours later when the dope has wore off theyre completely weak and unable to lift any kind of weight.
    LOL! Yup, oh and Clemens, a few hours before the game, dope, a few hours after the game, dude can't throw 55.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 29ernb View Post
    i know what bicyclist have done for doping. blood transfusions, performance enhancing drugs etc..
    No, you don't. If you think that a PED wears off in a few hours, you know nothing of anything relatively remotely close to PED's and what they are, and what they do. One does not inject something a few minutes before a race, or competition of any sort, and reap the rewards of said injection.

    The procedure of leveling out dosages, blood panels, cycling off, and cycling on said PED's takes months, if not years of research and study to get it right. You've clearly read an article, and throw around a few key terms, yet know nothing of the nature of PED's. Congrats on being an interwebz expert.

  57. #57
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    Be nice to the noobs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Addict View Post
    Who cares? If you are so obsessed with investigating past TDF races then I'm sure you would also know that most racers dope like there's no tomorrow.

    The French just want to make it look like Lance was the only one who did it because they are frustrated that an American has put their POS country to shame 7 times in a row.

    The French despise Americans with a passion. Hell, if you go to France and say you're American they will treat you like dirt. I'm serious, France can go to Hell. They are a rude obnoxious and arrogant country.
    Who cares? Anyone who truly cares about the sport..

    Suffice it to say I am not obsessed, but probably more connected to road biking than many on this thread. I am involved in the sport and care about the sport.

    Interesting how emotional (angry) you get about France. Would it make you feel better to know that this is not just about Lance or just about France? There are others implicated: manager (Belgian), doctor (Italian), and trainer (Spanish)- it's pretty international.

    Would it make you feel better that an American (Dave Weins) was cheated out of a win in a mountain bike race held on American soil (Leadville 100) by Lance?

    It's not so simple.

    Note that all the published witnesses are American and there is no French connection. The US in USADA stands for United States, just as a reminder. As you probably know, one of the witnesses is George Hincapie, former National champ and Lance's right-hand man and the one who was with him for every one of the seven TDF wins. Would it make you feel better that Hincapie married a French model he met during the TDF (after she was done spitting in his face, of course)?

    If you really want to know the truth about the French, they loved Lance in the beginning. But, that is all besides the point. Reality can suck sometimes. It is amazing how angry people get when they are confronted by facts that they don't like. But reality is still reality.
    The facts will come out soon enough. This is actually a good thing.

    I know some strong kids who race locally on the road and one has actually been to Europe. If this thing succeeds, it means guys like him will have less a chance of being forced to dope just to make it in road biking.

    I suggest you read the story of Greg Strock again (assuming you did read it, in the first place). Those who follow this stuff know who the un-named coach is in that article and if you can put 2 & 2 together, you would figure it out pretty quickly- (Hint: is linked directly to Lance Armstrong, runs a very successful coaching company in Colorado Springs, now has a large client base of yuppie type riders, did some commentary during TDF on Versus, also is connected to the Leadville 100). The settlement terms of the case protected his identity, maybe you should wonder why? This $%^& runs soo deep right here in Colorado, sigh....

    I suggest people enjoy the sport for what it is and don't get too caught up on one rider or one nationality. It's still a great sport and this cleansing is long overdue. No, it won't solve all of cycling's problems, but it is a necessarily important step in that direction.
    Last edited by hardtail05; 07-07-2012 at 09:01 PM.

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    I don't like Lance Armstrong, and it's not just because he used EPO to win bike races. He isn't a person with a lot of morals. The cancer society and his lying to all those cancer patients. That's sick and twisted for someone to benefit and become rich by tricking them to believe in him when all along he was using drugs to win, not his own ability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    I don't like Lance Armstrong, and it's not just because he used EPO to win bike races. He isn't a person with a lot of morals. The cancer society and his lying to all those cancer patients. That's sick and twisted for someone to benefit and become rich by tricking them to believe in him when all along he was using drugs to win, not his own ability.
    Lance is personally tricking people that have cancer into giving him money? IMO, beating cancer like he did and returning to win 7 tours doped to the gills is still pretty amazing though right? I mean considering...

    I could be totally wrong here, but my opinion is that professional cycling is much like professional bodybuilding in that nearly all top contenders are doped. Still, the hardest working guy with the best genetics etc wins.

    That was Lance imo. My biggest concern really is that perhaps Lance had access to more effective dope and therefore perhaps it was not really a level playing field.

    In a perfect world, none of them would dope. It sucks. I hope it goes away, but I am not holding my breath.

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    It wasn't a level playing field. Some of the links in the Armstrong threads discuss the particular drugs he has used and the results. What most overlook is that not every fit rider gains the same advantage. Lance gained 10% more output, while most experienced 1-2%. No undoped rider has ever been 10% better than the entire field. Nobody is born with that genetic advantage.

    But to address the OP's question; Is Lance Armstrong Finished?

    Of course not. He is a very wealthy man. He is adored by people will never judge him for the cheating, and will admire him as a hero even if he admits his illegal drug use. He has friends in hollywood. He is a celebrity and dates celebrities. He is fit and young enough to enjoy traveling the world and living the high life (no pun intended). He lives the life of a rock star. He has money to burn to defend his image using high paid lawyers. He might not really care at this point, what anyone says. If Johan throws him under the bus, along with Dr. Ferrari, he might not care either. He can compete in mountain bike races without being tested or risk being banned. He might be back competing in Triathlons if he is successful fighting the current allegations. His life is better than 99.9% of the rest of us, if you don't factor in how he'll fare when he enters eternity. Lance is far from finished living his good life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hardtail05 View Post


    I know some strong kids who race locally on the road and one has actually been to Europe. If this thing succeeds, it means guys like him will have less a chance of being forced to dope just to make it in road biking.
    I agree with a lot of what you said, but you can't be ^that^ naive. If Lance get's "convicted" by the US Anti-Doping agency less pros will dope? At that level everyone is looking for an edge. It has nothing to do with Lance Armstrong getting convicted 10 years after the fact.

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    I really hope these allegations leveled by USADA are not true. Beating cancer and winning 7 TDFs is an incredible story that is inspirational to a lot of people in and outside of cycling. If the allegations are proven to be true I think the biggest casualty could be the Livestrong foundation and his cancer awareness campaign.

    An earlier poster stated that he didn't like Armstrong because he became rich by somehow fooling cancer patients into giving him money. That's not how he became wealthy; presumably he got rich by entering into lucrative endorsements and other ventures associated with his celebrity.

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    His approximate $2,000,000 annual salary when he was still in the peleton probably helped a little too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whodaphuck View Post
    His approximate $2,000,000 annual salary when he was still in the peleton probably helped a little too.
    That's a good start!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joules View Post
    The notion that Armstrong, or any other pro road racer was or is clean is almost charmingly naive, kind of like believing in the tooth fairy. There hasn't been a single clean tour finisher in the last 30 years. All pro athletes use PEDs and cycling is dirtier than most sports. Even at a D1 college level I'd bet clean athletes are rare, and the ones that don't play much.

    Get over it. When there's that much money and fame available, there is always going to be incentive to cheat, so the guys that are the best at cheating are going to be the best at the sport.
    Pretending you don't believe it doesn't change anything.
    Exactly! My wife asked me if I think he dopes, I said they all do it's just a matter of who gets caught. The playing field is level so who cares?

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    It's always something. These guys, like many natural bodybuilders, are always looking for that edge without getting caught. They work close with research labs in determining that next "legal" substance, and then once the USADA catches wind of it, it gets banned. Take DMAA for instance, it was the main NO in jack3d, the USADA is now investigating the substance and it will likely be banned, hence why many supplement companies are taking it out before the ban happens, but you can still buy it in pure form.

    Short answer, even with 99% of the substances banned, the guys with money will always be on the look out for that 1% of PED's that haven't been banned yet. There will always be doping in pro sports.

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    The other thing is that there is no proof that all the riders that do the races are on drugs. There is proof that Lance and his team were on drugs. So, they should give the Tour win to the next placed rider, and if he gets busted like Armstrong, then they castrate him too.

    Livestrong is a farce marketing tool aimed at helping Lance. Even the president says that if Armstrong is shown to have defrauded people and took drugs, theywill support him. That's wrong. Cheaters never win and winners never cheat. Armstrong and Livestrong are not winners.

    Roger Clemens had one witness that testified against him. With Armstrong, he has over 10. I read that Armstrong's defense will be like that of Jerry Sandsky, the convicted child molester. Sandusky also had multiple witnesses testify against him, and he tried to smear and discredit all of them stating the same stuff about the investigation being a witch hunt and that the witnesses had axes to grind and were just wanting money. That's is the same as Lance's argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    The other thing is that there is no proof that all the riders that do the races are on drugs.
    False. In world level competitive cycling you have to dope to be competitive.

    There is proof that Lance and his team were on drugs. So, they should give the Tour win to the next placed rider, and if he gets busted like Armstrong, then they castrate him too.
    They then should take the title from all winners the past 15-20 years.

    Livestrong is a farce marketing tool aimed at helping Lance. Even the president says that if Armstrong is shown to have defrauded people and took drugs, theywill support him. That's wrong. Cheaters never win and winners never cheat. Armstrong and Livestrong are not winners.
    None of them are cheating if they're all doping. Cheating implies an unfair advantage. If everyone else is doing it, you're just keeping up if you do it. You're at home on the sofa if you don't.

    This is far from a perfect world. Idealistic views of world class sports are false, empty dreams. More professional and Olympic athletes use PEDs because the other top tier athletes do. I wish sports were pure and that none of them used PEDs but it just ain't so.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    The other thing is that there is no proof that all the riders that do the races are on drugs. There is proof that Lance and his team were on drugs. So, they should give the Tour win to the next placed rider, and if he gets busted like Armstrong, then they castrate him too.

    Livestrong is a farce marketing tool aimed at helping Lance. Even the president says that if Armstrong is shown to have defrauded people and took drugs, theywill support him. That's wrong. Cheaters never win and winners never cheat. Armstrong and Livestrong are not winners.

    Roger Clemens had one witness that testified against him. With Armstrong, he has over 10. I read that Armstrong's defense will be like that of Jerry Sandsky, the convicted child molester. Sandusky also had multiple witnesses testify against him, and he tried to smear and discredit all of them stating the same stuff about the investigation being a witch hunt and that the witnesses had axes to grind and were just wanting money. That's is the same as Lance's argument.
    Having to guess, what % of the TdF peloton today has doped? Also, just for fun, lets pretend that Lance ended up 4th place in the TdF 7 times and that the Livestrong Foundation never existed. Would you dislike him today?

    I ask because I am not sure how it would change my views...

    I am not an LA fan so much myself. Just kind of meh about him at this point...

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    Lance Armstrong sues doping agency to block charges - News | FOX Sports on MSN

    quote from article "10 former teammates and associates are willing to testify against him and that it has blood samples from 2009-2010 that are ''fully consistent'' with doping. they have the proof that he did doping.

    i still think it takes a great athlete, a lot of training, nutrition, hyration, and a great team to win the tour de france and not doping. it may give an athlete an advantage but no other sport takes over 20 days to complete and covers close to 3491.9km( 2120miles). not to mention bike crashes and other riders taking other riders out of the race, rabid fans that don't give riders enough space, and barbed wire fences.

    lance will always be able to say that he won 7 tdf's because he is a great athlete . enough said

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    Doping or not, it definitely takes a special kind of athlete to compete in cycling, especially the TDF. I just don't see what the big deal is about doping. They "all" do it. NFL players shoot roids to compete in their sport. MLB was made popular by home run kings on roids. It's in a lot of pro sports. As long as we are all aware of that, who cares. If those athletes are willing to risk the downsides of taking performance enhancing drugs, so be it. We just need to make sure we treat every athlete in a sport the same. Either we hold them ALL to the same standard or do away with banned substances. It's hard to declare a true winner if we allow some to enhance yet penalize others.

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    Regarding baseball players, you can take all the steroids you want and still never make contact with the ball. Yes, it helps the best get better, but the majority of what the accomplish is natural talent.

    That said, if the rewards for being a good athlete are so great that they're willing to harm their bodies to succeed... perhaps the problem lies not with the the athletes, but the public for supporting the environment they compete in.

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    its called the joy of riding,, not the misery and vindictive behavior of losing

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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    Also, just for fun, lets pretend that Lance ended up 4th place in the TdF 7 times and that the Livestrong Foundation never existed. Would you dislike him today?
    Well there's an interesting question. A couple of possibilities;

    1) Without the public goodwill towards the Lance Armstrong Foundation (the actual name of the organization), Armstrong and his business associates would probably not have set up a large scale commercial venture under the name livestrong.com that leverages the Livestrong trade name, but is actually a commercial for-profit venture that generates no benefit toward the LAF. Try google search for "livestrong" and see what comes up ranked #1, the .org LAF web site or the .com commercial web site that enriches Armstrong and his associates. Apparently, the .com web site attracts more hits than the .org web site (although the .com does have a small text link to try to help people find the .org web site). if Armstrong wasn't trying to leverage the Livestrong branding for his own commercial gain, why would they run the whole .com setup and siphon web hits and eyeballs away from the .org LAF?

    2) If the LAF didn't exist, more money might be donated toward other organizations that have a research component to their efforts, which the LAF does not (no current funding or grants from LAF toward cancer research for several years now). Of course awareness programs and survivor support are wonderful resources also that are needed in the world, what happens when the LAF is such a draw for cancer-related donations that funding toward other not-for-profit cancer agencies that have a reseach component starts to dry up?

    Lots of good works for society being done by LAF, but it's not as clear cut as it might seem on the surface, especially with respect to Armstrong's personal gain from the whole Livestrong phenomenon (see item 1 above).

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    While it's still up for play with option to refile within 20 days, the federal judge (based in his own Austin, TX) slapped LA's legal team down pretty badly in his written response, and LAs current application for a restraining order has been dismissed.

    Selected excerpts below;

    ----------------------------------------------

    "Ultimately, what Rule 8 demands is a short and plain statement of detailed facts, not a mechanical recital of boilerplate allegations, nor as is more relevant here a lengthy and bitter polemic against the named defendants."

    "Worse, the bulk of these paragraphs contain "allegations" that are wholly irrelevant to Armstrong's claims and which, the Court must presume, were included solely to increase media coverage of this case, and to incite public opinion against Defendants. See, e.g., Compl. [#1] 10 ("USADA's kangaroo court proceeding would violate due process even if USADA had jurisdiction to pursue its charges against Mr. Armstrong.")."

    "This Court is not inclined to indulge Armstrong's desire for publicity, self-aggrandizement, or vilification of Defendants, by sifting through eighty mostly unnecessary pages in search of the few kernels of factual material relevant to his claims."

    "Contrary to Armstrong's apparent belief, pleadings filed in the United States District Courts are not press releases, internet blogs, or pieces of investigative journalism. All parties, and their lawyers, are expected to comply with the rules of this Court, and face potential sanctions if they do not."

  77. #77
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    Wow! This just came up on CNN. Lance Armstrong filed a lawsuit against USADA recently and it totally backfired on him. The judge threw the lawsuit out and then scolded Armstrong and his attorneys for filing the frivolous lawsuit. The judge says the lawsuit had no basis, and was filed with wording to stir up hostility against USADA. In addition, the over 80 pages were full of self-aggrandizement and vilification of other people that were irrelevant to Armstrong's claims.

    OUCH! That's gotta hurt! It's good though to see Armstrong called out on his lying.

    CNN has the article on their home page
    Judge tosses Armstrong suit against anti-doping agency - CNN.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by nwbikur View Post
    I really hope these allegations leveled by USADA are not true. Beating cancer and winning 7 TDFs is an incredible story that is inspirational to a lot of people in and outside of cycling. If the allegations are proven to be true I think the biggest casualty could be the Livestrong foundation and his cancer awareness campaign.

    An earlier poster stated that he didn't like Armstrong because he became rich by somehow fooling cancer patients into giving him money. That's not how he became wealthy; presumably he got rich by entering into lucrative endorsements and other ventures associated with his celebrity.
    You are correct and this is sad. However, there are other cancer charities out there. Livestrong does not actually fund cancer research, but now only "cancer awareness" (as if we were not aware of it already).

    And to those who think of Lance as some kind of hero, take it from someone who knew him for years and read this, if you have the time
    Michael Anderson's Testimony On Lance Armstrong Doping

    Some very very interesting stuff in there.... Cheryl Crowe, Dr Ferrari, dodging testers, threats, etc. Would make a great movie
    Last edited by hardtail05; 07-09-2012 at 08:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenny7 View Post
    I agree with a lot of what you said, but you can't be ^that^ naive. If Lance get's "convicted" by the US Anti-Doping agency less pros will dope? At that level everyone is looking for an edge. It has nothing to do with Lance Armstrong getting convicted 10 years after the fact.
    Well, a liberal use of the word "maybe" but yes, you are probably correct. It cannot hurt, though...

    If you find the info on the Tour of Switzerland EPO positive that was covered up, you may realize that the majority of riders doping does NOT equal a level playing field. Not all doping regimes are comparable, but more importantly, not all the riders are able to buy their way out of a doping sanction. This is a case of the UCI covering for the "goose that laid the golden egg".

    If Lance had nothing to hide, he would have taken USADA up on their offer to come in and testify as the others did. Everyone was offered the same thing and Lance was the only one who refused. His problem is that he built his whole brand on being clean and a hero and he has made a %^&*# load of money on this and he has backed himself into a corner.


    Read more about the "500" tests here

    and read here about French nationalism/favoritism related to bike racing & doping
    Last edited by hardtail05; 07-11-2012 at 05:09 PM. Reason: add more info

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    Quote Originally Posted by Univega777 View Post
    honestly...who cares?
    I would say most fans of road cycling care

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    The judge basically said that Lance was using the court system for his own propaganda and not even addressing a relevant complaint. I wish Armstrong would just stop wasting taxpayer's money by trying to tie this up in the courts instead of playing by the rules and going through the due process that all athletes get. It's sickening to see him subvert the system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crewjones View Post
    I would say most fans of road cycling care
    I've been racing on and off since the mid 90s. The cyclists (people from all walks of life) I have talked to, don't care.
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    How is Armstrong wasting tax dollars by defending his own name, and the general reputation of his company which raises millions a year for cancer research and other assorted causes all geared towards the general welfare of people across the country ? If anyone is wasting tax dollars it is all the angry liberal eurotrash who are just pissed off that Armstrong has embarrassed them all by robbing them of their domination of a sport that they have "owned" since its inception. If he did use, I don't really care, he was able to pass every single drug test ever administered additionally he is still the most tested athlete of all time. If you can pass that bar, then you have my vote of confidence. And again, look at the sport in general, the whole lot of them all dope, So yes I also DO NOT care. cue the subscription to thread !
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    Oh one more thing. The fact that Armstrong filed an 80 pg complaint does not show that he LOST his case. That was a carefully thought out Legal maneuver thought up by some of the best attorney's in the country to allow the case to get significant coverage before moving forward. He knew, his attorneys new exactly how that overzealous complaint would be received by the court. But he could give a ****. As he should, these people need to move on.
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    I can't believe i wasted 1 minute of my life indulging the content of this complaint. See excerpt on how Armstrong paid for her flight but didn't buy her a first class ticket even though she was pregnant. OMG the suffering, That murderous monster ! Or how armstrong would shower and get a massage as she prepared meals..,, seriously .. This country is so backwards what a joke
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    I dunno about anyone else, but you'd have to dope me to the eyeballs to wanna sit on a road bike and pedal for that frigg*n long, every day for that length of time... I guess if you threw in 2 mill and some babes it could soften the blow... oh, maybe throw in some blow...
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    Quote Originally Posted by dickeydoo View Post
    I've been racing on and off since the mid 90s. The cyclists (people from all walks of life) I have talked to, don't care.
    And I'm a fan of professional cycling, and I DO care.

    So the athletes that race don't think fans deserve clean races? They don't want clean races?

    The Federal investigation delt with crimes associated with using the drugs. Tax dollars used to buy and distribute them, lying under oath, payoffs, other crimes related to using drugs. They did not concern themselves with the actual drug use.

    The USADA investigatin is specific to showing how Lance was using banned substances. Compelling many within his inner circle to discuss what they know and what they saw.

    It may be true that some cyclists compete with others who do not care. It may be part of the reason it is so hard to get people to testify. Winning at any cost may be considered fair play to some. To many of us, if not most of us, we want athlete to win fairly. If they cheated to win, we want them to admit to it, so they don't compound the negative feelings of fans by being know as both a liar and a cheat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shulman1144 View Post
    ... If anyone is wasting tax dollars it is all the angry liberal eurotrash who are just pissed off that Armstrong has embarrassed them all by robbing them of their domination of a sport that they have "owned" since its inception...
    Tell me about it. The cheese eating surrender monkeys have infiltrated the USADA. I've never forgiven them for subverting the neuf/onze enquiry, and packing the high court bench for Roe v Wade. Still, Jean-Pierre "Earl" Warren did a good snow job when that angry liberal got gunned down in Dealey Plaza.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shulman1144 View Post
    How is Armstrong wasting tax dollars by defending his own name, and the general reputation of his company which raises millions a year for cancer research and other assorted causes all geared towards the general welfare of people across the country ? If anyone is wasting tax dollars it is all the angry liberal eurotrash who are just pissed off that Armstrong has embarrassed them all by robbing them of their domination of a sport that they have "owned" since its inception. If he did use, I don't really care, he was able to pass every single drug test ever administered additionally he is still the most tested athlete of all time. If you can pass that bar, then you have my vote of confidence. And again, look at the sport in general, the whole lot of them all dope, So yes I also DO NOT care. cue the subscription to thread !
    Interesting line of thought. You seem to care that he passed a number of tests and care that his foundation defends his reputation, and you seem concerned that the French are behind these accusations, yet you repeat that you do not care if he cheated and lied to become a winner, enriched by doping, famous because of cheating, thus allowing him to become a celebrity and raise lots of money for something with his name on it.

    Why care about how someone achieved greatness? There should be no standard of fair play? Or if you pass multiple tests, because you went and paid half a million dollars to Dr. Ferrari, the most famous doping expert in cycling, to help you avoid detection.

    Do you also not care if Hincape testifies against Lance? How about Johan? How about another 8-10 close riding partners and teammates? You don't care. Gonna repeat the passing multiple test defense all the way to the end?

    How do you account for Marion Jones? She may be the most tested world champion track runner of all time. Tested for over a decade. Not one bad test. So she was innocent of doping, according to your standard, right? Were the French out to get her? No. USADA is not run by the French. The Government agencies investigating her for years were U.S. agencies, just like with Lance. Her coach ratted her out. He even turned a syringe over to USADA, with undetectable drugs in it, that he said he was injecting into her. Her own checks were found during a raid of BALCO. She still denied using drugs. Her fans still shouted over and over she passed the tests. Ultimately, they got her on check fraud, and made a deal to shorten her sentence if she made a full confession. I suppose there will be some hard core fans that will cling to those passed tests and state she was running clean and made up the confession just to avoid more jail time. Some fans are like that, arn't they?

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    I guess so If others believe that presumption is the mother of truth. I always err on the side of lifelong teammates and coaches who end up ultimately turning in their "beloved" teammates with HARD evidence. And I also always believe a leveraged confession. I had to give a leveraged confession myself recently. I got pulled over in a friends vehicle in NYS, and the police took me in for DWI, I blew a 0.0 BAC, I hadn't smoked in over 8 hours, I had two options in court, fight the DWI in trial at a risk of 1 year in jail, risking the possibility of the urine test coming back positive despite the time between the stop and providing urine. Or plead guilty to the DWI and take 3 years of probation and a misdemeanor . In NY there are no more DUI's or DWAI's or any other type of lesser derivative of the charge. The cops were specifically looking for the owner of the vehicle, conducted a full search of the vehicle discovering a small amount of marijuana >1 gram, and a pipe, as well as a broken bong in the trunk. They also discovered a small pocket knife that had a loose assembly which they called a gravity knife and also charged me with criminal possession of a weapon. The plea got rid of everything except the DWI charge, If I would have went to trial and beat the DWI they would have slammed me on the other charges. So if you don't think this identical type of scenario plays out at higher levels you are insane. In a perfect world with perfect people your logic almost applies. This is a million variable situation, occurring over many decades, and to try to define it with your moral stamp of approval is nothing short of absurd. But that's just my opinion and in no way is it fact, or to be considered above your own.

    2 cents, +1
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    Quote Originally Posted by shulman1144 View Post
    I guess so If others believe that presumption is the mother of truth. I always err on the side of lifelong teammates and coaches who end up ultimately turning in their "beloved" teammates with HARD evidence. And I also always believe a leveraged confession. I had to give a leveraged confession myself recently. I got pulled over in a friends vehicle in NYS, and the police took me in for DWI, I blew a 0.0 BAC, I hadn't smoked in over 8 hours, I had two options in court, fight the DWI in trial at a risk of 1 year in jail, risking the possibility of the urine test coming back positive despite the time between the stop and providing urine. Or plead guilty to the DWI and take 3 years of probation and a misdemeanor . In NY there are no more DUI's or DWAI's or any other type of lesser derivative of the charge. The cops were specifically looking for the owner of the vehicle, conducted a full search of the vehicle discovering a small amount of marijuana >1 gram, and a pipe, as well as a broken bong in the trunk. They also discovered a small pocket knife that had a loose assembly which they called a gravity knife and also charged me with criminal possession of a weapon. The plea got rid of everything except the DWI charge, If I would have went to trial and beat the DWI they would have slammed me on the other charges. So if you don't think this identical type of scenario plays out at higher levels you are insane. In a perfect world with perfect people your logic almost applies. This is a million variable situation, occurring over many decades, and to try to define it with your moral stamp of approval is nothing short of absurd. But that's just my opinion and in no way is it fact, or to be considered above your own.

    2 cents, +1
    Man, I feel your pain. The NYPD is full of French. Known fact.

    u r a mutt lol
    Last edited by nuffink; 08-09-2012 at 01:38 PM.

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    I wish it had been the NYPD,,, i would have strolled away from that stop BELIEVE IT. I got nailed by Nassau County (long island) BSO (Bureau of Special Operations) These guys are the "fund-raising" are of Nassau's PD,, unfortunately for me I fell into there sweet spot,, and i've definitely raised alot of funds for them since.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shulman1144 View Post
    How is Armstrong wasting tax dollars by defending his own name, and the general reputation of his company which raises millions a year for cancer research and other assorted causes all geared towards the general welfare of people across the country ? If anyone is wasting tax dollars it is all the angry liberal eurotrash who are just pissed off that Armstrong has embarrassed them all by robbing them of their domination of a sport that they have "owned" since its inception. If he did use, I don't really care, he was able to pass every single drug test ever administered additionally he is still the most tested athlete of all time. If you can pass that bar, then you have my vote of confidence. And again, look at the sport in general, the whole lot of them all dope, So yes I also DO NOT care. cue the subscription to thread !
    If you are guilty and defend your name (knowing you are guilty) you are wasting taxpayer dollars. If you hire lawyers who's aim is to confuse and obfusticate, then you are wasting taxpayer dollars.

    Also, Livestrong stopped funding cancer research in 2005 (go to their website and search it out if you don't belive).

    This has been said many times but:
    A) no, he did not pass every drug test he took
    B) he is not even close to the most tested athlete of all time
    C) If you have the UCI covering for you, it becomes irrelevant how many tests you "pass"
    D) Marion Jones never failed a drug test either, other examples..
    E) The Euro's don't hate Americans (although with this behavior, maybe they should?)

    If you don't care if he doped or not, then that's fine. The system does and should care. It's not about you. This is about justice and justice should apply equally to the rich, popular, and famous as much as the average people among us.

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    Also your humor would be comical if it had some bite.. angry liberal talking point logic,,, never gets old
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    Quote Originally Posted by shulman1144 View Post
    Also your humor would be comical if it had some bite.. angry liberal talking point logic,,, never gets old
    One of us comes across as angry and I'm fairly sure it isn't me. Also you strike a very liberal pose on drugs, you're not French are you?

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    is lance finished? i sure as hell hope so for his sake regardless of the outcome. I'm sure i'd be ready to move on if i were him. oh, yeah, rockerc is definitely on point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hardtail05 View Post
    Well, a liberal use of the word "maybe" but yes, you are probably correct. It cannot hurt, though...

    If you find the info on the Tour of Switzerland EPO positive that was covered up, you may realize that the majority of riders doping does NOT equal a level playing field. Not all doping regimes are comparable, but more importantly, not all the riders are able to buy their way out of a doping sanction. This is a case of the UCI covering for the "goose that laid the golden egg".

    If Lance had nothing to hide, he would have taken USADA up on their offer to come in and testify as the others did. Everyone was offered the same thing and Lance was the only one who refused. His problem is that he built his whole brand on being clean and a hero and he has made a %^&*# load of money on this and he has backed himself into a corner.


    Read more about the "500" tests here

    and read here about French nationalism/favoritism related to bike racing & doping


    All good points. It's hard to discuss facts with Livestrong people. They just misrepresent facts anyway.

    It's a sham. It really is. I mean, all Livestrong is or does is raise money for Lance Armstrong. It does nothing for cancer research. Livestrong wastes sooooo much money on Lance's jets and fancy cars. It's disgusting how Lance hides behind this so-called good deed.

    I agree with you about Lance lying about passing all these drug tests. For one, he lied about taking a lot of drug tests that he didn't take because he hid from testers lots of times. He also got busted for taking steroids and EPO, but paid off the governing body of cycling to hide it. The worst thing is that he now employs all these Livestrong people to lie for him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shulman1144 View Post
    So yes I also DO NOT CARE. !
    Umm yeah you do shulman. Quit lying. If you didn't care, you wouldn't have posted 6 times in the last hour.

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    Didn't read all the way through the string, but does anyone remember that Bayer, the maker of EPO, was Lance's sponsor through all of those tour wins? I find it kind of ironic.

    I also believe that if you think ANYONE was clean during those days or even today and was/is still competitive you must live in fairly land. If you do we need to talk about some islands, a few bridges, and a tower in Paris that I have for sale. All are priced for a quick cash sale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    Didn't read all the way through the string, but does anyone remember that Bayer, the maker of EPO, was Lance's sponsor through all of those tour wins? I find it kind of ironic.

    I also believe that if you think ANYONE was clean during those days or even today and was/is still competitive you must live in fairly land. If you do we need to talk about some islands, a few bridges, and a tower in Paris that I have for sale. All are priced for a quick cash sale.



    Yeah, kinda ironic that Bayer and Bristol-Meyers was big Armstrong supporters. Both of them are in the pharmaceutical industry.

    Lance Armstrong is a total fraud. He got lucky soooo many times while he hung out and tricked the testers and tests. I guess he just couldn't buy everybody and get them to lie for him like his ex wife did. What a lousy excuse for a man and a father. His kids can grow up and know that daddy was a big fat liar and a person who tried to ruin people's lives.

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