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  1. #1
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    Just another Coronavirus comment

    I was going to post this in one of the several active Coronavirus threads, but they have all gone off-topic into something completely unrelated. I get it, attention-deficit is fun, no worries. I will really, really try to not come across at political, but I want to emphasize how both the private sector and our government failed us both during the early stages of the epidemic, and in many ways, they are currently failing us. And what can be done to avoid these problems in the future.

    You look at what South Korea did to combat the virus: adequate testing, adequate health care. They were prepared, they had the funding and medical resources to meet the threat. The US supposedly has the 'best' health care system in the world. I am so tired of hearing that. We don't, OK? Accept it. This is a perfect example of our health care system being broken and dysfunctional. It's been broken for decades, but the big for-profit companies want to keep it broken because it makes them money. They don't care about helping people, they care about making money for themselves, their businesses, and their shareholders. Wake up, people, this is the reality we are in. Then we have an epidemic like this and the response is anemic. We can't have a good epidemic response because the vast majority of health care is privatized and it's 100% geared to make money.

    A good example of this is NY Governor Andrew Cuomo asking for more ventilators. A ventilator costs $25,000 to produce, about the same as a car. Car manufacturers try not to make more cars in a season then they think they can sell, because then they will have to heavily discount the car at the end of the year and lose money. Same with ventilators. They don't make more than are normally used. So when a crisis like this comes around, there is a dire shortage of ventilators.

    Why? Because both ourselves and the government allowed this to happen, by not preparing for natural disasters and epidemics like other countries like South Korea did. We let the 'free market' take care of the health system. And this is the result. Not so impressive now, is it. HMO's and pharmaceutical companies are like fair-weather friends, everything is great when things are going good. When things go bad, they are nowhere to be found, because they are not geared to spend extra money on a public health crisis. They want to hide themselves away and wait until the profits return. This epidemic underscores the need for health care reform more than anything else. Quit thinking we have a great medical system. We don't. We have an expensive, boutique one, that can save someone having a heart attack but runs up $100,000+ bills for anyone needing a couple weeks on a ventilator.

    Other developed countries don't bankrupt someone for life because they need a ventilator. We do. No insurance, expect a lifetime of debt. No one should be surprised that our ICU's are straining at the brink, because they were never properly setup to begin with. Other developed countries (and I mean in Northern and Western Europe and East Asia, not Italy and Spain) have an integrated health care system that is geared for actually helping people, not making money. This is what happens when we leave health care to the free market. Cars and mountain bikes should be left to the free market. But not for taking care of our own people.

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    The grass is always greener...

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    When are you moving to S.K?
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  4. #4
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    Well, I for one absolutely agree. I think the only people who would disagree are those who have not personally suffered the devastating setback that ill-health and a lack of adequate insurance can bring.
    The lack of any kind of preparedness for the current crisis, EVEN WHEN WATCHING THE CHAOS UNFOLD ELSEWHERE is staggering to me. And especially when warnings have been given for quite some time. I shake my head in wonder and horror at what has been, and will be unleashed here and elsewhere. I am pretty damned sure this is no exaggeration, but many who are not affected will think otherwise. Just like in the healthcare/insurance circus.

    Just in the last week, I have had bills for about 1200 bucks for CT and MRI scans. I am insured. I have had no income for about 2 months now, and no prospect of any for a while. I am likely one of the luckier ones! When I shopped around for my MRI, (why should I have to spend my time doing that I wonder?) I discovered that I could have got the same service for a quarter of the total billable price thru the insurance company if I went with self pay and no insurance. Where is the logic/sense/morality in that? Last tax year, and the one before that, my wife and I paid in the region of 40 grand each year for health related bills outside our insurance. 5 years ago I got a bill for one of the surgical staff in a network procedure for 27 grand, because he was out of network. I was never told this, just presented with a bill later. Bullshit.
    This system is entirely fukked up and sicker than my wife and I combined. The sooner our healthcare system gets put out of our misery the better.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    I was going to post this in one of the several active Coronavirus threads, but they have all gone off-topic into something completely unrelated. I get it, attention-deficit is fun, no worries. I will really, really try to not come across at political, but I want to emphasize how both the private sector and our government failed us both during the early stages of the epidemic, and in many ways, they are currently failing us. And what can be done to avoid these problems in the future.

    You look at what South Korea did to combat the virus: adequate testing, adequate health care. They were prepared, they had the funding and medical resources to meet the threat. The US supposedly has the 'best' health care system in the world. I am so tired of hearing that. We don't, OK? Accept it. This is a perfect example of our health care system being broken and dysfunctional. It's been broken for decades, but the big for-profit companies want to keep it broken because it makes them money. They don't care about helping people, they care about making money for themselves, their businesses, and their shareholders. Wake up, people, this is the reality we are in. Then we have an epidemic like this and the response is anemic. We can't have a good epidemic response because the vast majority of health care is privatized and it's 100% geared to make money.

    A good example of this is NY Governor Andrew Cuomo asking for more ventilators. A ventilator costs $25,000 to produce, about the same as a car. Car manufacturers try not to make more cars in a season then they think they can sell, because then they will have to heavily discount the car at the end of the year and lose money. Same with ventilators. They don't make more than are normally used. So when a crisis like this comes around, there is a dire shortage of ventilators.

    Why? Because both ourselves and the government allowed this to happen, by not preparing for natural disasters and epidemics like other countries like South Korea did. We let the 'free market' take care of the health system. And this is the result. Not so impressive now, is it. HMO's and pharmaceutical companies are like fair-weather friends, everything is great when things are going good. When things go bad, they are nowhere to be found, because they are not geared to spend extra money on a public health crisis. They want to hide themselves away and wait until the profits return. This epidemic underscores the need for health care reform more than anything else. Quit thinking we have a great medical system. We don't. We have an expensive, boutique one, that can save someone having a heart attack but runs up $100,000+ bills for anyone needing a couple weeks on a ventilator.

    Other developed countries don't bankrupt someone for life because they need a ventilator. We do. No insurance, expect a lifetime of debt. No one should be surprised that our ICU's are straining at the brink, because they were never properly setup to begin with. Other developed countries (and I mean in Northern and Western Europe and East Asia, not Italy and Spain) have an integrated health care system that is geared for actually helping people, not making money. This is what happens when we leave health care to the free market. Cars and mountain bikes should be left to the free market. But not for taking care of our own people.
    Every single virologist has been expecting this for years. Many thought it would come in the form of a bio-terror attack. The Patriot act lead to the development of the defense threat reduction agency (DITRA) to prioritize agents of bio-terror and be able to respond.

    The USA have handled this whole thing poorly. They can't screen efficiently because they don't have enough kits or protective gear. The fact that the FDA hampered the development of LDT kits is the real scandal here and lead to a month delay.

    I do agree that this really has highlighted the major deficiencies in our health care system. Imagine if we had a real coordinated bio-terror attack.
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  6. #6
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    The South Korean comparison to the U.S. is chock full of implications.

    ...beginning in the 50’s......
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    This system is entirely fukked up and sicker than my wife and I combined. The sooner our healthcare system gets put out of our misery the better.
    Healthcare for profit will never care for people the way people should be cared for.
    Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    Healthcare for profit will never care for people the way people should be cared for.
    Nope, but it could be improved on for sure
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    The US supposedly has the 'best' health care system in the world. I am so tired of hearing that.
    The only time I've ever heard that is from wealthy right-wing Americans.

    Hopefully people will be able to learn from this that sometimes there are very good reasons to do things that aren't profitable...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    The only time I've ever heard that is from wealthy right-wing Americans.

    Hopefully people will be able to learn from this that sometimes there are very good reasons to do things that aren't profitable...
    I've heard it described as: America has the best health care available, however, the American public health care is another matter.

    As I get older and thus my perspective broadens, the separation between one's individual health and that of the societal collective health gets more intertwined. Be it collateral costs, herd susceptibility / immunity, physical and mental ability & agility - we seem to be in this together. Regardless of policy and how we get there, I think it's clear that a healthy society benefits everyone and that importance is sadly downplayed.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    we seem to be in this together. Regardless of policy and how we get there, I think it's clear that a healthy society benefits everyone and that importance is sadly downplayed.
    Bingo. Agree completely. I think it's one of those things that future generations will look back on and shake their heads.
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  12. #12
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    “Cough, cough...I have Coronavirus”
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    Not everyone benefits from a healthy society
    Round and round we go

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    Is our system perfect, no. Neither is Europe's. In case you had not noticed, it's on fire.

    No country can, or should have, all the ventilators one might need for a 1 in a 100 year event. I am glad to see the government and private sector working together to mobilize quickly much like we did in WWII.

    Now we were supposed to have 3.5 billion masks in strategic reserve but they did not get replaced after the swine flu.

    No one is being turned away from critical care for lack of money. It is illegal to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    The South Korean comparison to the U.S. is chock full of implications.

    ...beginning in the 50’s......
    Implications... beginning in the 50s... insightful!
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    The South Korean comparison to the U.S. is chock full of implications.

    ...beginning in the 50’s......
    Doesn't mean we can't learn something from them.

    If the US had the most expensive healthcare system and the best healthcare for the population, there would be an argument for our system. If the US had very low cost healthcare and good healthcare for the population you'd have an argument for our system. But to have by far the most expensive system and be way down the list of quality? A very high percentage of people who put off or avoid when they need healthcare because they are afraid of the costs? Healthcare for profit.
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    2 trillion will allow a lot of ppl to wash their hands and move along
    Round and round we go

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    Is our system perfect, no. Neither is Europe's. In case you had not noticed, it's on fire.

    No country can, or should have, all the ventilators one might need for a 1 in a 100 year event. I am glad to see the government and private sector working together to mobilize quickly much like we did in WWII.

    Now we were supposed to have 3.5 billion masks in strategic reserve but they did not get replaced after the swine flu.

    No one is being turned away from critical care for lack of money. It is illegal to do so.
    Some European healthcare systems are extremely good. The resource issue for a 1 in 100 event is not the issue here, the response to the need is. Cuomo is begging to be sent more ventilators right now, and APPARENTLY the feds have a stockpile of 20000 units. Where are they?
    No healthcare system can cope with such a rapid influx of serious cases at once, but countries should have the resources on hold to deal.
    As a previous resident of the UK since childhood, I grew up with a very good healthcare system that was entirely free. No one could not afford to get sick. Gradually over the years, the system has been eroded as the private sector took over. I remember well in the 80s, the days of pure greed, when it became harder to get good care in the UK because resources were becoming increasingly privatized with its own insurance system. A hybrid that drained the NHS of its best doctors, nurses and hospitals. Now if you can afford it, you can get preferential treatment that is of high quality, whereas the average Joe is forced to rely on an ever drained NHS that is hardly able to cope at the best of times. At least he doesn't have to pay, but the standard of care has diminished hugely sine funding has been steadily cut over the last decade.
    Pre Brexit, had I been seriously ill in the UK, I would have gone to France for treatment!
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    “Cough, cough...I have Coronavirus”
    And here’s the link to the moron who did this to a grocery store worker. He got arrested for a terroristic threat.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/nj...ay/ar-BB11Fgle
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    Sorry for the idealistic musings:

    We could design the best healthcare system in the world but for a few minor obstacles.

    We have a participatory republic in which too few participate. We have a culture and educational system that doesn't know how to educate citizens. We have allowed "politician" to become a profession. We have accepted the notion that money is free speech. We have allowed carefully exploited wedge issues do divide We the People into Them and Us.

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  21. #21
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    The health care system is broken is so many ways. Americans themselves prevent movement forward - too tribal and shortsighted. Single payer works great for wealthier countries. If you’re a poor or mismanaged country you will have relatively bad healthcare. But as others have pointed out, Italy is not as rich as the US, but has a higher rank. There is NO easy answer.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
    The health care system is broken is so many ways. Americans themselves prevent movement forward - too tribal and shortsighted. Single payer works great for wealthier countries. If you’re a poor or mismanaged country you will have relatively bad healthcare. But as others have pointed out, Italy is not as rich as the US, but has a higher rank. There is NO easy answer.


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    Well said. For me the key point you made is we have to come together. Maybe the silver lining in all this is we will.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Some European healthcare systems are extremely good. The resource issue for a 1 in 100 event is not the issue here, the response to the need is. Cuomo is begging to be sent more ventilators right now, and APPARENTLY the feds have a stockpile of 20000 units. Where are they?
    No healthcare system can cope with such a rapid influx of serious cases at once, but countries should have the resources on hold to deal.
    As a previous resident of the UK since childhood, I grew up with a very good healthcare system that was entirely free. No one could not afford to get sick. Gradually over the years, the system has been eroded as the private sector took over. I remember well in the 80s, the days of pure greed, when it became harder to get good care in the UK because resources were becoming increasingly privatized with its own insurance system. A hybrid that drained the NHS of its best doctors, nurses and hospitals. Now if you can afford it, you can get preferential treatment that is of high quality, whereas the average Joe is forced to rely on an ever drained NHS that is hardly able to cope at the best of times. At least he doesn't have to pay, but the standard of care has diminished hugely sine funding has been steadily cut over the last decade.
    Pre Brexit, had I been seriously ill in the UK, I would have gone to France for treatment!
    So the feds have resources (20,000 ventilators) and cannot get them where they need to be and this is the same fed that so many want to control all of healthcare? That is kind of my "DMV" point. Federal employees are more likely to die than be fired, fact.

    There is no "free" anything. Someone has to pay. The government does not have money except that it collects from it's people. What was the tax rate in the UK in your childhood? Why are so many governments dialing back on socialist programs? No money.

    In our area every major medical provider (4 or 5 large systems) are "non profit". (not to say they do not take in a crap ton of money) One benefit is that they compete for patients. They must stay on top of facilities, technology and staff to attract patients. When I got my cancer diagnosis I went shopping for expertise. I am glad I had the freedom to do so. I am not rich, nor am I poor, simply average. I did not get treatment anywhere that someone on government assistance could not get treatment, they could choose to go there too. That hospital system is made better by working to stay ahead of others. Competition has it's benefits.

    My guess is that when this whole Covid thing passes we will find that the US system will have done as well as most government run systems...at least the data is trending that way now.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    So the feds have resources (20,000 ventilators) and cannot get them where they need to be and this is the same fed that so many want to control all of healthcare? That is kind of my "DMV" point. Federal employees are more likely to die than be fired, fact.

    There is no "free" anything. Someone has to pay. The government does not have money except that it collects from it's people. What was the tax rate in the UK in your childhood? Why are so many governments dialing back on socialist programs? No money.

    In our area every major medical provider (4 or 5 large systems) are "non profit". (not to say they do not take in a crap ton of money) One benefit is that they compete for patients. They must stay on top of facilities, technology and staff to attract patients. When I got my cancer diagnosis I went shopping for expertise. I am glad I had the freedom to do so. I am not rich, nor am I poor, simply average. I did not get treatment anywhere that someone on government assistance could not get treatment, they could choose to go there too. That hospital system is made better by working to stay ahead of others. Competition has it's benefits.

    My guess is that when this whole Covid thing passes we will find that the US system will have done as well as most government run systems...at least the data is trending that way now.
    Actually the system has lot more than 20K ventilators. They are housed by DITRA and BARDA. They have not been released.

    The USA response has been terrible as has most of Europe - the exception has been Germany. There were two choices to be made to attack this. 1) Test early and quarantine all those infected or exposed or 2)shut down. The USA is doing neither well. All test like this are done through what's known as a laboratory developed test or LDT. That is how your hospital test for PD-L1 or HER2. The FDA played no role. They hold the right to intervene but NEVER do. That is why LabCore and Quest exist. They are all LDT assays. However, for this one issue, the FDA decided to intervene. And for stupid paperwork. They slowed the testing. And we all know it was for political reasons.

    What will hopefully save the USA is the weather. Mucosal enveloped viruses don't do well in the heat. Europe will be the problem. We were all hoping Italy could keep the deaths below 10K but most likely it will keep going above that. It is safe to say that there are probably 2-5 million people infected in Europe at the moment.

    The US government pays for 50-70% of all healthcare now anyway through medicare and medicade and dictate most things hospitals do. And between them and the insurance companies - who have a much greater impact on clinical care than people realize - many physicians prefer the government.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    So the feds have resources (20,000 ventilators) and cannot get them where they need to be and this is the same fed that so many want to control all of healthcare? That is kind of my "DMV" point. Federal employees are more likely to die than be fired, fact.

    There is no "free" anything. Someone has to pay. The government does not have money except that it collects from it's people. What was the tax rate in the UK in your childhood? Why are so many governments dialing back on socialist programs? No money.

    In our area every major medical provider (4 or 5 large systems) are "non profit". (not to say they do not take in a crap ton of money) One benefit is that they compete for patients. They must stay on top of facilities, technology and staff to attract patients. When I got my cancer diagnosis I went shopping for expertise. I am glad I had the freedom to do so. I am not rich, nor am I poor, simply average. I did not get treatment anywhere that someone on government assistance could not get treatment, they could choose to go there too. That hospital system is made better by working to stay ahead of others. Competition has it's benefits.

    My guess is that when this whole Covid thing passes we will find that the US system will have done as well as most government run systems...at least the data is trending that way now.
    I do not wish to debate taxation and such just now, especially not in here. I have strong views on this and I know they will not gel with yours! No worries, but to disregard and minimize the glaring inequalities of this system, and to say we will likely do as well as any govt run system has and is doing, is short sighted in my entirely unbiased opinion
    We should and could be doing a whole lot better.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
    The health care system is broken is so many ways.
    Self care in America is broken too. Statistics suggest that, while we do our best to contain coronavirus, 3500 Americans will die from obesity related conditions this WEEK. Opioid abuse will claim 900.
    Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    I do not wish to debate taxation and such just now, especially not in here. I have strong views on this and I know they will not gel with yours! No worries, but to disregard and minimize the glaring inequalities of this system, and to say we will likely do as well as any govt run system has and is doing, is short sighted in my entirely unbiased opinion
    We should and could be doing a whole lot better.
    1.) The OP started this thread with the opinion that the US system sucks compared to others, especially South Korea. I simply said that data trending to show that the US is handling it on par with others.

    2.) Could/should we do better, absolutely. How we get better is where I am sure our opinions would diverge.

    There is nothing wrong with differing opinions, in fact they are often healthy in finding the best solutions. Group think is rarely well thought out. Ideas need to be challenged.

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    You can have your own opinion but not your own fact. The data shows South Korea did much better so far. Given our actions that won’t change, imo
    Round and round we go

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    Self care in America is broken too. Statistics suggest that, while we do our best to contain coronavirus, 3500 Americans will die from obesity related conditions this WEEK. Opioid abuse will claim 900.
    You could add in another 200+/wk dead from drunk/high driving.

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    The Global Health Security Index lists the countries best prepared for an epidemic or pandemic.

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/...h-emergencies/
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    ^my read: readiness helps but it's your execution that matters in the end. Applying regular life experience: A 75 readiness easily could overtake a 83 score by executing intelligently, comprehensively and effectively. Basically - it's good to have a proper set-up but you won't be immune from unforced errors, blind spots or bad policy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    ^my read: readiness helps but it's your execution that matters in the end. Applying regular life experience: A 75 readiness easily could overtake a 83 score by executing intelligently, comprehensively and effectively. Basically - it's good to have a proper set-up but you won't be immune from unforced errors, blind spots or bad policy.
    Agreed.

    But I would also say this study does appear to refute in large part the claims from some that the US was woefully unprepared for this as compared to other countries. Though not perfect, it was ranked number 1 in 5 of the 6 categories.

    Of course hindsight is 20/20 and Monday morning QBs abound, but IRL there's only so much preparation that can be done and it appears that the US by no means was slacking behind the rest of the world as many seem to want to claim now.
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    "You always got to be prepared but you never know for what" Bob Dylan
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    but IRL there's only so much preparation that can be done and it appears that the US by no means was slacking behind the rest of the world as many seem to want to claim now.
    This is where you and I prob differ - re: messaging, execution and commitment. From what I'm seeing there are have been completely unforgivable missteps - and still happening. I expect better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    I expect better.
    We need to demand better. I'm not so sure that how things have gone to this point are really outside of expectations.

    And that's a completely non-partisan opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    This is where you and I prob differ - re: messaging, execution and commitment.
    Didn't say anything regarding any of those things.
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  37. #37
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    There are many data sets that contribute to an understanding of health care and outcomes.
    Sadly, this is a 2012 published study, but I'm sure you could find more that relate directly to the current pandemic.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...MC3551445/#R30

    As an example, ICU beds per 100,000 in the U.S. was in the range 20.0-31.7
    In the U.K. it was 3.5-7.4

    I didn't see the data on Italy, where the situation is dire, but I did read today that their ICU beds per 100,000 of population was quite low compared to the U.S.

    This doesn't address the woes of the OP. I'm empathetic to his situation. I have a relative who, in Alaska - after the passing of Obamacare eliminated all but one insurer - was almost ruined. Fortunately, I was in a position to help and the issue is resolved. But, there are many people who are, or will be hurting regardless of what we do.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    “Cough, cough...I have Coronavirus”
    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    And here’s the link to the moron who did this to a grocery store worker. He got arrested for a terroristic threat.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/nj...ay/ar-BB11Fgle
    And the hits keep coming.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/man-accus...121637702.html
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    Healthcare for profit will never care for people the way people should be cared for.
    Countries with national health systems also have a shortage of supplies and ventilators.
    Do not take anything I post seriously. I don't.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Amazing. I expect these guys will be pretty popular, "tossing salad" in prison soon!
    Justice!

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    A study from China suggests people with Type O and Type B blood are less susceptible to the virus, and people with Type A are more susceptible. This is only a correlation noted in a small sample size, so may not hold true universally. No doubt epidemiologists will pore over the data after all this is over and find the commonalities.

    However -- the parts of Italy and Spain that are hardest hit have a higher percentage of type A than their national average. I have not noted the same pattern in the US though.

    Also noted is the cities hardest hit have worse air quality. Makes sense, if your lungs are already stressed you are more susceptible. This matches the observation in New York that a large number of younger patients in hospitals regularly vaped or smoked. I have not seen the corresponding data from LA or Seattle.
    Do not take anything I post seriously. I don't.

  42. #42
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    My real issue comes from the fact that in our present system insurance companies are financially motivated to care for people as cheaply as they can until they can pass them off to national socialist healthcare when they turn 65.
    Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Agreed.

    But I would also say this study does appear to refute in large part the claims from some that the US was woefully unprepared for this as compared to other countries. Though not perfect, it was ranked number 1 in 5 of the 6 categories.

    Of course hindsight is 20/20 and Monday morning QBs abound, but IRL there's only so much preparation that can be done and it appears that the US by no means was slacking behind the rest of the world as many seem to want to claim now.
    Being prepared and acting are two different things. We are prepared because we have an entire system designed to act in case of a bio-terror attack. We have stockpiles of ventilators, anti-virals (none against this virus) and other things when the attack comes. There is also a specific plan in place for what to do when an agent is identified - ie., is it in the blood supply, food supply, airborne, etc.

    In this case, the US government has decided to just completely ignore what was developed and 1) ignore it and 2) wing it.

    I think the majority of people in the USA are just too stupid to fully understand this. If you were planning something, this should make you absolutely giddy.
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  44. #44
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    It'd be an amazing irony if vaping - which originally got a foot hold due to being pitched as a safer alternative to smoking - but then attracted and gained adoption by people who wouldn't have otherwise smoked....lead to being a critical factor in your susceptibility and severity of the CV.

    Sometimes our epiphany moments come because of the eventual aligning of orthogonal aspects: pollution control - vaping - lung health awareness - policy & execution breakdowns - virus exploitation = BINGO! aka "crap this stuff matters".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Being prepared and acting are two different things.
    Exactly. And as far as being prepared, which is specifically what I was talking about, we were as well as anyone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    It'd be an amazing irony if vaping - which originally got a foot hold due to being pitched as a safer alternative to smoking - but then attracted and gained adoption by people who wouldn't have otherwise smoked....lead to being a critical factor in your susceptibility and severity of the CV.

    Sometimes our epiphany moments come because of the eventual aligning of orthogonal aspects: pollution control - vaping - lung health awareness - policy & execution breakdowns - virus exploitation = BINGO! aka "crap this stuff matters".
    Chemtrails. It's always the chemtrails.
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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Chemtrails. It's always the chemtrails.
    Follow the smoke! Or don't...that's probably smarter.

    Now some people relegate their locus of control to mind control matters like Chemtrails or Illuminati power trusts, being of a certain age - I'm prone to fear of those shifty Sleestaks. You cannot trust them - and what were their motives anyway?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    Follow the smoke! Or don't...that's probably smarter.

    Now some people relegate their locus of control to mind control matters like Chemtrails or Illuminati power trusts, being of a certain age - I'm prone to fear of those shifty Sleestaks. You cannot trust them - and what were their motives anyway?

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    Crystals I believe.
    And getting over on the Pakuni.

    edit - sorry, not crystals, but Pylons!

    Loved that show.
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    My real issue comes from the fact that in our present system insurance companies are financially motivated to care for people as cheaply as they can until they can pass them off to national socialist healthcare when they turn 65.
    The data doesn't support that thesis.

    Even back in 2010, the U.S. had over 62,000 ventilators. 46% of which were neonatal/pediatric capable.
    An additional 98000+ were available, though not "full feature.
    As of today, the NIH has about 8000.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21149215

    In the area of ICU beds the same is true.
    ICU beds per 100,000 in the U.S. was in the range 20.0-31.7
    In the U.K. it was 3.5-7.4

    Countries that rely on socialized medicine are forced to ration. There's just no other way to do it, and they can't respond organically, by region.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...MC3551445/#R30

    The U.S. can afford to cover those over 65, but that's only because we've paid Medicare withholding taxes over the course of 45 years without getting benefits. And even then, we pay for part B benefits. Even with that, the system is in high stress financially.

  50. #50
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    If the US had put the $2 TRILLION DOLLARS they are now putting toward "relief", plus raised taxes to an amount roughly equal to what people pay for healthcare and insurance today, into a decent single payer health care system, we would be better off now.

    Wrap your heads around this. 2 Trillion is 2000 Billion. It is 2 million millions. It is roughly $6000 for every man, woman and child in the US.

    But of course, very few average people will see any "relief". Hundreds of billions are going to be given in unsecured loans to oil companies, airlines, and other large businesses. Unsecured, meaning when they manipulate the books and declare bankruptcy anyway, the taxpayer is left holding the bag.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    But of course, very few average people will see any "relief". Hundreds of billions are going to be given in unsecured loans to oil companies, airlines, and other large businesses. Unsecured, meaning when they manipulate the books and declare bankruptcy anyway, the taxpayer is left holding the bag.
    Oh come now, spending massive amounts of money and sticking it to the taxpayer is one of the few things left that our politicians can agree on!

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    but of course, very few average people will see any "relief".
    lol!
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    The US doesn't have the best of anything; well maybe fast food and access to guns but that's about it. Actually, the US does have the best propaganda, I'll give it that much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    The US doesn't have the best of anything; well maybe fast food and access to guns but that's about it. Actually, the US does have the best propaganda, I'll give it that much.
    Must be why so many people keep leaving for better places.
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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post

    In this case, the US government has decided to just completely ignore what was developed and 1) ignore it and 2) wing it.
    That is debatable. First, travel restrictions were put on very early to cries of xenophobia. Did travel restrictions work? They seem to have delayed the onset here vs areas that did not restrict travel. Secondly, if you look at coordination between the feds and governors and private industry, reviews have been pretty good. Third, establishing a state of emergency to bypass/streamline, normal approval processes has been vary advantageous. Four, Yes the POTUS has been optimistic, maybe overly so, but part of his job is to try and not get people panicked. No doubt more, much more, was going on behind the scenes and sooner than we know.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    Actually, the US does have the best propaganda.
    Meh, CNN and MSNBC are pretty transparent. The NYT and WP do their best at hiding it.

  57. #57
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    Arguably one of the best health care delivery systems in the world is the South Korean model. The National Health Insurance System "NHIS" is a single payer system that went into effect in 2004.

    But, 77% of the population also has private insurance because the NHIS only covers about 60% of each medical bill.

    An international perspective is helpful here. When you look out at the rest of the world — at the dozens of countries that run universal health care systems — you find that every universal health plan relies, in some form or another, on private insurance.
    Two thirds of Canadians have private coverage, for example, and Only about 70 per cent of health care spending in Canada is funded through the public option.

    The argument for a government system that is fully funded by taxes and controlled by the government is one of those fatuous arguments such as "well, REAL socialism has never been tried"!

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    But of course, very few average people will see any "relief".
    Current maximum unemployment benefits in the state of NH (where I work) are $427 a week. I can't think of any average people that are going to be helped by bumping that up to $1027.

    My wife just started collecting unemployment in MA, as the dental office where she works is shut for the foreseeable future. It's really going to suck that her benefits are going to be raised from half her pay to her full pay for the next 4 months, and that the doctor/owner will now be able to hire everyone back instead of shutting the doors. None of that is going to help us at all, I'm sure.

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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    If the US had put the $2 TRILLION DOLLARS they are now putting toward "relief", plus raised taxes to an amount roughly equal to what people pay for healthcare and insurance today, into a decent single payer health care system, we would be better off now.
    Right. We would all have free healthcare, but no income, and the tax money to continue paying for the free healthcare would just start magically appearing out of nowhere! SWEET!!!!
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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    That is debatable. First, travel restrictions were put on very early to cries of xenophobia. Did travel restrictions work? They seem to have delayed the onset here vs areas that did not restrict travel. Secondly, if you look at coordination between the feds and governors and private industry, reviews have been pretty good. Third, establishing a state of emergency to bypass/streamline, normal approval processes has been vary advantageous. Four, Yes the POTUS has been optimistic, maybe overly so, but part of his job is to try and not get people panicked. No doubt more, much more, was going on behind the scenes and sooner than we know.
    The defense plan for a mucosal/airborne pathogen was screen and hard quarantine. For all pathogens, it is about containment. When they lost containment we were screwed. The governors office of PA called my old biotechnology center and told them they had lost containment in the first week in March.

    I will dig up the white paper for what was drafted by DITRA/BARDA regarding protocol for agents of bio-terror. We were involved in the plan for the filoviridae (Ebola and Marbrug viruses) and the flaviviridae (Murray Valley fever and Japanese encephalitis virus) but everything went into a joint plan. I did not write the plan but was part of the 50-100 person group that made suggestions as we had a large grant from DITRA to develop diagnostics and broad spectrum anti-virals.

    You can't say the coordination of the feds with the state and industry has been good. They actively hampered the development of a screening test. Ask any clinical laboratory and they will tell you. They did not streamline anything. Tests were delayed to prevent cases showing up. Everyone accepts that.

    Clearly you are a POTUS guy but honestly, he should not be involved. I mean he said this was a hoax for the first month! This required leadership from the CDC with active screening and quarantines in late January/early February. There should have been no need for a shut down or sequestration of large groups of people like we are doing. That is a last resort.
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  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSU Alum View Post
    The data doesn't support that thesis.

    Even back in 2010, the U.S. had over 62,000 ventilators. 46% of which were neonatal/pediatric capable.
    An additional 98000+ were available, though not "full feature.
    As of today, the NIH has about 8000.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21149215

    In the area of ICU beds the same is true.
    ICU beds per 100,000 in the U.S. was in the range 20.0-31.7
    In the U.K. it was 3.5-7.4

    Countries that rely on socialized medicine are forced to ration. There's just no other way to do it, and they can't respond organically, by region.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...MC3551445/#R30

    The U.S. can afford to cover those over 65, but that's only because we've paid Medicare withholding taxes over the course of 45 years without getting benefits. And even then, we pay for part B benefits. Even with that, the system is in high stress financially.
    The premise of my statement is that Medicare is stressed in part because people may not have received optimal care before they enrolled due to the fact that many doctors follow a protocol that suits private insurance. My statement is not related directly to the current crisis and is very much shaded by my own experiences. Quoting stat.s about ICU capacity and ventilators isn't going to change my opinion that insurance companies answer to shareholders and not to patients. Again....just my opinion.
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  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Right. We would all have free healthcare, but no income, and the tax money to continue paying for the free healthcare would just start magically appearing out of nowhere! SWEET!!!!
    Yes, our taxes would go way up. But so would our paychecks as a huge amount of mine is taken out to pay for insurance. And companies should be forced to raise wages the same amount as they are saving by no longer having to pay their portion of the insurance. Take the profit out and there's more money. A huge amount of the cost goes into administration; sure some would still be needed but not like it is under our current system. My sister is a nurse and she told me the other day that the first few weeks at a new job is training on the new systems as there is no standardization but tons of paperwork. BTW, the hospital she works for was non-profit but recently was purchased by a large for profit outfit and they are treating the nurses so poorly to squeeze out as much money as possible, that they are now looking for 300 nurses to fill the vacancies. She is actually working as a home healthcare OT; her husband was a nurse and quit there several months ago. This is outside of Asheville.

    All the hospitals around me have sunk a huge amount of money into building beautiful facilities, all landscaped, etc. When I lived in Japan, the hospitals were just plain buildings and pretty drab inside compared to ours. But, I didn't have to pay an arm and a leg for health insurance.

    Yes, there are other areas that would need to be dealt with such as the pharmaceutical companies, lawsuits, etc. And I certainly agree that the government runs things pretty inefficiently. But look at the privatization of prison systems; everything I've seen has said it ends up costing tax payers more money, the prisoners are treated worse and you end up with judges accepting bribes to send kids to prison when they shouldn't have been incarcerated.

    I've roughly run the numbers and I'm pretty sure despite me having spent 3 nights in the hospital from my crash in November and receiving PT, the insurance company still turned a profit on me for the year.

    I certainly don't have all the answers. Maybe private insurance could work but if so, it needs major reforming and a lot of government regulations to prevent price gouging, price fixing, incredible executive pay etc. that we have now. And real competition; I don't know about you but I had a choice of 1 when I choose my insurance company.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by veloborealis View Post
    Sorry for the idealistic musings:

    We could design the best healthcare system in the world but for a few minor obstacles.

    We have a participatory republic in which too few participate. We have a culture and educational system that doesn't know how to educate citizens. We have allowed "politician" to become a profession. We have accepted the notion that money is free speech. We have allowed carefully exploited wedge issues do divide We the People into Them and Us.

    I can't do it, and neither can you. We can do it, but will we?
    Ab-so-freakin-lutely!!!!

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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    If the US had put the $2 TRILLION DOLLARS they are now putting toward "relief", plus raised taxes to an amount roughly equal to what people pay for healthcare and insurance today, into a decent single payer health care system, we would be better off now.

    Wrap your heads around this. 2 Trillion is 2000 Billion. It is 2 million millions. It is roughly $6000 for every man, woman and child in the US.

    But of course, very few average people will see any "relief". Hundreds of billions are going to be given in unsecured loans to oil companies, airlines, and other large businesses. Unsecured, meaning when they manipulate the books and declare bankruptcy anyway, the taxpayer is left holding the bag.
    ...and isn't this all just Socialism...I thought we were not a Socialist Govt. I though Socialism was evil
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    If the unemployment benefit in this bill really is an additional $600/week, that's HUGE for the demographic that desperately needs it.

    I'm cautiously optimistic that this gets through.
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    JT just signed a bill giving $2000/m for 4 months for those affected by the virus.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    I'm cautiously optimistic that this gets through.
    Same.
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    That is not true. This pending bill while providing some help, it is a total ripoff. A blank check for Trump to control one half trillion dollars which when leveraged is actually 4.5 trillion US dollars to pass around during an election year. The oversight provided is window dressing.Are we crazy and have we learned nothing from the last debacle of 2008? Yes airlines need some help but they blew billions on stock buy backs. This is a horrible bill that will do next to nothing to solve the issue that got us here. Insane behavior inless you are in bed with industry.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalon2018 View Post
    That is not true.
    Everything I said is true and you can go read the bill itself or just verify it through every single news source out there.

    Partisanship doesn't override reality.
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    Self care in America is broken too. Statistics suggest that, while we do our best to contain coronavirus, 3500 Americans will die from obesity related conditions this WEEK. Opioid abuse will claim 900.
    I’m a necessary evil in many cases. I’m also guilty of poor self care. Society has to ask itself what is its responsibility to patients who neglect themselves, either because of sloth or mental illness.


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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Yes, our taxes would go way up. But so would our paychecks as a huge amount of mine is taken out to pay for insurance. And companies should be forced to raise wages the same amount as they are saving by no longer having to pay their portion of the insurance.
    I believe all that money you think companies would be saving would actually be eaten up as part of the planned funding for UHC. Companies would likely be paying as much or even more than they are now towards insurance, so no savings there. It would just go to the government instead. Same thing with the money you think will be going into your paycheck. Nope, that and likely more would now just be taken in taxes instead, and unlike the current system, no one would even have the option to opt out, unless they wanted to face the wrath of the IRS.

    Speaking of taxes going way up, I would like to see someone try to put an actual number on how much. Mostly at this point, I see smoke and mirrors and incredibly vague information on what the actual costs would be to individuals. "Free" is not even close to "free".

    In my situation, I'm paying about $140 a week to insure four people: myself, my wife, my adult stepson, and my minor son. Since I carry insurance, my wife and stepson don't need to, so they don't see any costs pulled from their paychecks. This works out to $35 a week for each person.

    In the case of UHC, where 3 of us would see our taxes go 'way up', I'm sure that the costs of our healthcare coverage would go through the roof. But again, of course, no one can even remotely come close to answering the question as to how much. I find it pretty wild that people are so fired up to buy something without having any idea whatsoever how much it will cost them.
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    There is another problem which is understated. The lack of faith in science or the belief in science when aligns with a person’s own belief system. I believe in God. It is a belief, not science. People think I’m arrogant when I ask them to show me high quality reproducible data showing what they read on the internet or heard from acquaintances. They typically don’t know what I’m talking about. I then query them why they think they know more than PhDs from Stanford, Cambridge, U of Michigan, etc. They can’t prove that there is a vast conspiracies everywhere proving their points. I have many beliefs, but unproven and definitely not science or fact. 1+1=2, but 2+2 equals 5 because I find comfort with that......


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    The bill has not become law. I am hopeful the house will scrub time. It is a horrible bill with some good stuff. And the payment is one time only. One time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalon2018 View Post
    The bill has not become law. I am hopeful the house will scrub time. It is a horrible bill with some good stuff. And the payment is one time only. One time.
    Unemployment checks come weekly. As in, every week. As in, not just one time.
    And the bill not only raises the amount people will get substantially, but also extends the duration by 13 weeks.

    This is far more important than the one time payments some people seem to get all myopic about when trying to score some sort of partisan point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I believe all that money you think companies would be saving would actually be eaten up as part of the planned funding for UHC. Companies would likely be paying as much or even more than they are now towards insurance, so no savings there. It would just go to the government instead. Same thing with the money you think will be going into your paycheck. Nope, that and likely more would now just be taken in taxes instead, and unlike the current system, no one would even have the option to opt out, unless they wanted to face the wrath of the IRS.

    Speaking of taxes going way up, I would like to see someone try to put an actual number on how much. Mostly at this point, I see smoke and mirrors and incredibly vague information on what the actual costs would be to individuals. "Free" is not even close to "free".

    In my situation, I'm paying about $140 a week to insure four people: myself, my wife, my adult stepson, and my minor son. Since I carry insurance, my wife and stepson don't need to, so they don't see any costs pulled from their paychecks. This works out to $35 a week for each person.

    In the case of UHC, where 3 of us would see our taxes go 'way up', I'm sure that the costs of our healthcare coverage would go through the roof. But again, of course, no one can even remotely come close to answering the question as to how much. I find it pretty wild that people are so fired up to buy something without having any idea whatsoever how much it will cost them.
    No one can "opt out" of the current system. They can refuse to get insurance, but if they are injured falling off a ladder, or go over the handlebars, or get in a car wreck, they get care. Then, they get huge bills. Then, they declare bankruptcy and dump their problem on society and health care providers.

    I know a guy personally who fell off a 16 foot ladder onto concrete, and he was uninsured. Six weeks in the hospital, including four days in the ICU, four major surgeries including plastic surgery for his mangled face. Declared bankruptcy. Who paid?

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    No one can "opt out" of the current system. They can refuse to get insurance, but if they are injured fall off a ladder, or go over the handlebars, or get in a car wreck, they get care. Then, they get huge bills. Then, they declare bankruptcy and dump their problem on society and health care providers.
    So now you're AGAINST the idea that people who can't afford something should have it paid for by other people?

    Sounds pretty conservative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    So now you're AGAINST the idea that people who can't afford something should have it paid for by other people?

    Sounds pretty conservative.

    There is no way we will ever have a humane health care system without a single payer model. There is too much temptation for greed.

    Example bullshit: Many large hospital chains are "non-profit". But they pay lavish salaries to way too many administrators, and cook their books to show "zero profit". They get government funding for capital improvements. They act just like for-profit hospital, except they don't pay taxes.

    For capitalism to work, there must be incentive to excel in order to attract customers. There is very little ability to shop for healthcare in the US. Just try to get a price on a surgical procedure in the US. It is nearly impossible. Add to that the fact that very many areas have very little choice in hospitals, and it is all just a rigged game to put money into the pockets of a LOT of people. I have a cousin who is an MD, but who has spent most of her career selling pharmaceuticals because she makes three times what she would in private practice. It is simply stupid how much she is paid to push drugs with massive side effects and marginal benefits.

    Then you have the insurance industry, medical devices, supplies, etc. etc.

    It is all just a racket set up to financially support an unnecessarily large number of people, while forcing huge numbers of people into bankruptcy.

    And no, we do not have the "best healthcare in the world" for the average person, not even close. We have the best healthcare a huge amount of money can buy, which is totally different.

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    Example bullshit: Many large hospital chains are "non-profit". But they pay lavish salaries to way too many administrators, and cook their books to show "zero profit". They get government funding for capital improvements. They act just like for-profit hospital, except they don't pay taxes.
    You just described Government.
    The idea that giving government a monopoly on healthcare is an improvement, is absurd.
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  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I believe all that money you think companies would be saving would actually be eaten up as part of the planned funding for UHC. Companies would likely be paying as much or even more than they are now towards insurance, so no savings there. It would just go to the government instead. Same thing with the money you think will be going into your paycheck. Nope, that and likely more would now just be taken in taxes instead, and unlike the current system, no one would even have the option to opt out, unless they wanted to face the wrath of the IRS.

    Speaking of taxes going way up, I would like to see someone try to put an actual number on how much. Mostly at this point, I see smoke and mirrors and incredibly vague information on what the actual costs would be to individuals. "Free" is not even close to "free".

    In my situation, I'm paying about $140 a week to insure four people: myself, my wife, my adult stepson, and my minor son. Since I carry insurance, my wife and stepson don't need to, so they don't see any costs pulled from their paychecks. This works out to $35 a week for each person.

    In the case of UHC, where 3 of us would see our taxes go 'way up', I'm sure that the costs of our healthcare coverage would go through the roof. But again, of course, no one can even remotely come close to answering the question as to how much. I find it pretty wild that people are so fired up to buy something without having any idea whatsoever how much it will cost them.
    Based on what I pay, I think you are saying your payment is about $140 a week to insure 4 people, guessing your company pays 50% as part of your compensation so in reality, you are paying about $70 a week per member of your family for a total around $14,560 annually. I pay a couple thousand more, also for 4 people, with a $2500 deductible and supposed maximum out of pocket of $5000 per person, $10,000 per family. I said "supposed" because the trend I'm seeing is the insurance pays a small percentage of the charge as all they allow and the medical service then expects the receiver to pay the balance, which is probably where people end up going bankrupt.

    As I said previously, if we paid the most and got the best medical care for all, there would be an argument for our system. Paying the most and not getting the best? Why are some (not all, some) countries able to spend less per person and cover everyone and have better medical care than the US? What are we doing wrong?
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    So now you're AGAINST the idea that people who can't afford something should have it paid for by other people?

    Sounds pretty conservative.

    I don’t think that’s what he means. Ultimately tax payers and people who opted in paid. Mucking around in the middle rather than choosing fee for service or single payer, with the incentive being profit or the reduction of costs instead of outcomes, has resulted in a crappy system. Healthcare professionals, especially clinicians have very little power.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
    I don’t think that’s what he means. Ultimately tax payers and people who opted in paid. Mucking around in the middle rather than choosing fee for service or single payer, with the incentive being profit or the reduction of costs instead of outcomes, has resulted in a crappy system. Healthcare professionals, especially clinicians have very little power.


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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Based on what I pay, I think you are saying your payment is about $140 a week to insure 4 people, guessing your company pays 50% as part of your compensation so in reality, you are paying about $70 a week per member of your family for a total around $14,560 annually. I pay a couple thousand more, also for 4 people, with a $2500 deductible and supposed maximum out of pocket of $5000 per person, $10,000 per family. I said "supposed" because the trend I'm seeing is the insurance pays a small percentage of the charge as all they allow and the medical service then expects the receiver to pay the balance, which is probably where people end up going bankrupt.

    As I said previously, if we paid the most and got the best medical care for all, there would be an argument for our system. Paying the most and not getting the best? Why are some (not all, some) countries able to spend less per person and cover everyone and have better medical care than the US? What are we doing wrong?
    My employer pays better than 50%, and I'm lucky enough to be in a low-deductible plan. I wish more companies would be able to put together packages like ours, as I'm actually quite happy with my coverage.
    I left the place I work now for a couple years at one point and worked elsewhere and the coverage was frigging garbage. Makes no sense how it can work so well on one hand and be all ****ed up right next door. In that sense, there are definitely things that can and should be done better, I would prefer the government stick to more a guiding role that actually taking over the whole thing soup to nuts because I don't have that much confidence in politicians.
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  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    My employer pays better than 50%, and I'm lucky enough to be in a low-deductible plan. I wish more companies would be able to put together packages like ours, as I'm actually quite happy with my coverage.
    I left the place I work now for a couple years at one point and worked elsewhere and the coverage was frigging garbage. Makes no sense how it can work so well on one hand and be all ****ed up right next door. In that sense, there are definitely things that can and should be done better, I would prefer the government stick to more a guiding role that actually taking over the whole thing soup to nuts because I don't have that much confidence in politicians.
    The company I work for was really set up for singles, they paid 75% on the employee but only 25% on family. We were purchased less than two years ago in an acquisition; as a complementary business. They paid 75% on employees and families. I was worried they'd make an exception for us and leave it as it was but they stepped up and paid 75% starting at the first full year they owned us. So I got a lot less taken out of my paycheck and basically got a big pay raise.

    I don't have much confidence in politicians and that is getting less and less.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    You could add in another 200+/wk dead from drunk/high driving.
    And another 1k/wk from the average flu.
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    Which brings to mind our sport or any recreational sport that is inherently dangerous is not the best thing to be doing in these times. An injury that requires hospitalization on an already way overloaded hospital system is somewhat selfish on our part.
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  87. #87
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    I told my wife if I break an arm riding it's going to be duct tape and a yardstick. Or just do what I did when I broke my ankle. just walk it off, it will be ok....
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  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    I don't have much confidence in politicians and that is getting less and less.
    Just think of the amount of blame for every single day-to-day thing that happens that many people these days seem to love to blame on a single person. Imagine that expanded to a complete government takeover of healthcare.

    "POTUS didn't get me my aspirin on time!"
    "POTUS made the water in these sinks too hot!"
    "POTUS mis-diagnosed my mother!"
    "POTUS could've cured my cancer but didn't!"

    For the mental health of the entire nation, please, no UHC!
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    Immortality is a con.....
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  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Imagine that expanded to a complete government takeover of healthcare.
    Demanding competence isn't just a blame game. I remember a pretty smart guy said: "we want a government as good as it's people". The funny aspect of this and where I see some of the people who resist all thing gub'ment know they are crap people so they reason gov't would be crap too. My take is it doesn't have to be this way - but there are bad-faith actors abound.

    An interesting read on this situation is when crap hits the fan bigly, it turns out scientists, gov't intervention and 'socialism' [in terms of bailouts, payments and stimulus] is what's needed to fix and all those corps that do their best to avoid paying taxes and contribute back to society don't seem to be doing squat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    Demanding competence isn't just a blame game. I remember a pretty smart guy said: "we want a government as good as it's people". The funny aspect of this and where I see some of the people who resist all thing gub'ment know they are crap people so they reason gov't would be crap too. My take is it doesn't have to be this way - but there are bad-faith actors abound.

    An interesting read on this situation is when crap hits the fan bigly, it turns out scientists, gov't intervention and 'socialism' [in terms of bailouts, payments and stimulus] is what's needed to fix and all those corps that do their best to avoid paying taxes and contribute back to society don't seem to be doing squat.
    So you would be honestly be happier if all healthcare was in the hands of the current administration? I don't buy it. You say only crap people see crap government, yet you constantly point out problems you see with the government. What conclusion do you draw from this? (You don't have to answer that, the answer is predictable enough)

    Putting my own money back in my own hands isn't 'socialism'. Words have actual definitions; you can't just make up whatever meanings you want. I think the problem with today's meme-socialists is they picked the wrong label for themselves and are confusing everyone (mainly themselves) by trying to go down with the ship based on not knowing what they're talking about and trying to hold everyone else to the re-definition of what Socialism actually is.

    I think they should probably try re-branding after reading the actual definition. Unless you actually feel that the government should take over the means of production, distribution and exchange wholesale. I'm betting (hoping anyway) that if they actually considered it, most meme-socialists these days wouldn't want true Socialism. They're just locked onto the wrong word for what they want and are too emotionally fragile to admit it, so they want to pretend Socialism is a bunch of stuff it's not.
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  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott O View Post

    But he grew boobs. I knew that was why the mortality rate was lower in women!
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  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by azimiut View Post
    I told my wife if I break an arm riding I’ll wash my hands and move on...it will be ok....
    Fixed
    Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    Fixed
    lol, another thing that aged like milk
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  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    . They're just locked onto the wrong word for what they want and are too emotionally fragile to admit it, so they want to pretend Socialism is a bunch of stuff it's not.
    2T isn't your own money and isn't the corps money either. Let's just move past that - we all contribute to pay back into the society from which we all benefit.

    I qualified my definition - & I agree on the socialism term but let's be honest - what the people who decry as socialism / communism outrage - isn't what the 'other side' people are advocating for either. So you can't play that both ways. The real topics are: collective societal safety nets & programs and funding prioritization and allocation. My main topic was this: there are just some things that 'big government' does well and is best suited to. Turns out national emergency / pandemic / large scale societal impacting things are just that... the maligning of the gov't wholesale is ridiculous. Apple, Amazon, HomeDepot isn't going to manage the states and coordinate the response and construct policy - nor would you want them to. However, corporations do have a hand to play and contribute as well but let's not oversell the capabilities of the 'free market'. Wrong tool, wrong job.

    But yes I do advocate for health care reform - most likely in a graduated step increments - blending single payer and government controls with private providers and even optional private insurance to augment your options. I do think that the system needs to be constructed in such a way that temporal political sway cannot undermine or remove protections that the program guarantees. Sticky business tho.

    [Edit] My criticism of gov't follow (in order): Policy - Competency - Execution - Ethics - and then reluctantly - Character

    ^I'd so rather focus on Policy alone but these days ethics - character has become un-ignorable aspect that is driving all the rest that you cannot avoid the set narrative and motivation root issues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    2T isn't your own money and isn't the corps money either. Let's just move past that - we all contribute to pay back into the society from which we all benefit.

    I qualified my definition - & I agree on the socialism term but let's be honest - what the people who decry as socialism / communism outrage - isn't what the 'other side' people are advocating for either. So you can't play that both ways. The real topics are: collective societal safety nets & programs and funding prioritization and allocation. My main topic was this: there are just some things that 'big government' does well and is best suited to. Turns out national emergency / pandemic / large scale societal impacting things are just that... the maligning of the gov't wholesale is ridiculous. Apple, Amazon, HomeDepot isn't going to manage the states and coordinate the response and construct policy - nor would you want them to. However, corporations do have a hand to play and contribute as well but let's not oversell the capabilities of the 'free market'. Wrong tool, wrong job.

    But yes I do advocate for health care reform - most likely in a graduated step increments - blending single payer and government controls with private providers and even optional private insurance to augment your options. I do think that the system needs to be constructed in such a way that temporal political sway cannot undermine or remove protections that the program guarantees. Sticky business tho.

    [Edit] My criticism of gov't follow (in order): Policy - Competency - Execution - Ethics - and then reluctantly - Character

    ^I'd so rather focus on Policy alone but these days ethics - character has become un-ignorable aspect that is driving all the rest that you cannot avoid the set narrative and motivation root issues.
    Agree with the majority of this.

    I do think there are a huge amount of people these days who concentrate on 'character' almost to the exclusion of all else. Blind tribalism is rampant and many people are so emotional about it, their judgment has been seriously compromised.
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    I agree with most of what the OP says. I grew up in Germany and they had/have great health care. They have one of the oldest healthcare systems and it's flat out works. I have experienced it with my own eyes. I was sick a fair bit as a child and teenager.
    I think everyone sees the American model is spiraling out of control. Something has to be done as the private healthcare gets it dirty hooks in our elected officials deeper. Just look at the EpiPen. It had been around for a very long time, but in 2007 when Mylan bought it and monopolized the market, they systematically raised the price 500% in 10 years. One of many examples. Pretty gangster. Doesn't that just seem wrong?

  98. #98
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    Just another Coronavirus comment-euh0yinwaaizxm0.jpg

    Further breakdown of the public health section:

    Just another Coronavirus comment-euh5e5yxsakncqz.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    Fixed
    This never gets old. I crack up every time
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    Should have been planning for this since SARS and Ebola, but "they" didn't plan nothing.

    Problem is, virus came from Wuhan China's wet market and spread rapidly. Too bad wild meat markets exist like they do, but its a business and a culture. Eating rats and bats is normal in other countries. Will hit 3rd world nations hardest if extreme precautions are not taken.

    Justin Trudeau Canada's Prime Minister sent containers full of medical equipment to China in Feb 2020, what a TURD! Now JT is scrambling for masks and ventilators.

    No tests at all in airports for people arriving. Telling people to self isolate with no follow up.
    What a big big mess it all is.

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    With everything that has happened to me in the past year and all vaccines I had, inoculations, and immunoglobulin including hantavirus and rabies vaccine after being attacked by wild dogs I wonder how this effects me. This is the first time in a while I have not had cold or spring flu.

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    I think Corona beer will take a hit badly

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