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  1. #1
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    How do they do it?

    And are able to sleep at night.


    Iím talking about defense attorneys and defending the obviously guilty murders. They know they are defending a guilty person yet go to all lengths to defend them and have them cleared. I donít get it, any moral person would not put the almighty buck first.
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  2. #2
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    Everyone has a right to a fair trial. John Adams defended the British Soldiers after the Boston Massacre, despite having been one of the patriot leaders.
    . . . . . . . .

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    And are able to sleep at night.


    Iím talking about defense attorneys and defending the obviously guilty murders. They know they are defending a guilty person yet go to all lengths to defend them and have them cleared. I donít get it, any moral person would not put the almighty buck first.
    Every single person in the US is guaranteed competent legal defense by the Constitution.

    Some people do it because of that, some for the money.


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  4. #4
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    Theyíll rot in a fiery torturous inferno of hell somedayÖ I believe in karma.
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  5. #5
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    Because the rule of law here is innocent until proven guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt. Our police work and prosecutions has moved to the complete opposite, guilty until you prove your innocence. If you really believe in innocence till proven guilty, then not defending someone is morally wrong.

    Also defending them isnít always about proving innocence or guilt. Sometimes itís all about getting them a fair trial.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorCal_In_AZ View Post
    Also defending them isnít always about proving innocence or guilt. Sometimes itís all about getting them a fair trial.
    This. Even the worst criminal is entitled to a fair trial and competent defense, and his or her ability to get those things depends on having people who a) believe in that and b) are willing to provide it.

    Without them, we are no better than a lynch mob.


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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    And are able to sleep at night.


    Iím talking about defense attorneys and defending the obviously guilty murders. They know they are defending a guilty person yet go to all lengths to defend them and have them cleared. I donít get it, any moral person would not put the almighty buck first.
    Defending the accused and guaranteeing a fair trial is the basis for our criminal justice system. It's what separates and protects us from anarchy.
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  8. #8
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    I get it, what I donít get is when the defense attorney knows for a fact the one he or she is representing is guilty yet continues to pull at straws, finding loopholes to get them off. And after the fact when the verdict is read that they are found guilty to continue on with the sharade in interviews years later.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  9. #9
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    I hear you DJ. I get why it's important like the others have said, but I certainly couldn't do it.
    Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    I get it, what I donít get is when the defense attorney knows for a fact the one he or she is representing is guilty yet continues to pull at straws, finding loopholes to get them off. And after the fact when the verdict is read that they are found guilty to continue on with the sharade in interviews years later.
    so which "true crime" television show are you basing that assessment on? They're hardly reflective of the full process. Plus, they never present everything that's known about a case, and they do a good job of presenting information in a way that pushes you to make a very specific conclusion.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    so which "true crime" television show are you basing that assessment on? They're hardly reflective of the full process. Plus, they never present everything that's known about a case, and they do a good job of presenting information in a way that pushes you to make a very specific conclusion.
    I donít watch ďtrue crime showsĒ. I do watch Dateline and other forensic shows telling truth of crimes. Just saying there is a lot of immoral attorneys fighting for obviously guilty criminals and do so past the end of the trial. Looking for loopholes to get their clients off on a technicality tells me they are grasping at straws to win the case.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  12. #12
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    A defense attorney defends the client. If they canít set their personal bias aside for that cause they should not be defending anybody.
    With that lawyers are people too, which is hard to believe sometimes but some of their human comes out, as I would hope, and as a result it can leave them liable
    Round and round we go

  13. #13
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    I'm much more bothered by prosecutors, DA's, police and even judges that charge and convict innocent people to advance their careers. Or public defenders with huge case loads for monetary reasons. Or jails for profit and laws to keep them full. Any and all checks and balances are a good thing. The problem is these checks and balances almost exclusively benefit those with money.
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  14. #14
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    Yup, it seems broken in ways. First thing should be having people pay for court expenses for frivolous claims
    Prisons for profit not a good idea neither
    Round and round we go

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    I donít watch ďtrue crime showsĒ. I do watch Dateline and other forensic shows telling truth of crimes. Just saying there is a lot of immoral attorneys fighting for obviously guilty criminals and do so past the end of the trial. Looking for loopholes to get their clients off on a technicality tells me they are grasping at straws to win the case.

    There are no loop holes in the legal system. There is a specific process and laws to prove someone is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If the prosecutor can not follow the law and present a definitive cases, then the accuse should not be found guilty. Laws and procedure are there to protect us all. If you don't hold the prosecution to the standard of law, then they can railroad anyone in a guilt verdict.

    Client-attorney privilege extends even after the relationship is over.

    There is nothing immoral about any of this.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    There are no loop holes in the legal system. There is a specific process and laws to prove someone is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If the prosecutor can not follow the law and present a definitive cases, then the accuse should not be found guilty. Laws and procedure are there to protect us all. If you don't hold the prosecution to the standard of law, then they can railroad anyone in a guilt verdict.

    Client-attorney privilege extends even after the relationship is over.

    There is nothing immoral about any of this.
    So if an attorney knows the client is guilty yet continues to fight searching for technicalities to get them off, thatís not immoral?
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    So if an attorney knows the client is guilty yet continues to fight searching for technicalities to get them off, thatís not immoral?
    I think he is just doing his job, a very difficult job, but a job none the less.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    So if an attorney knows the client is guilty yet continues to fight searching for technicalities to get them off, thatís not immoral?
    No, thats his job. It would be unethical and immoral to do anything else. And technicalities aren't just some little secret way for the attorney to get the guy off, they are a major mistake that the prosecution or police made that are there to protect people.
    If a criminal gets off on a "technicality" that is because the prosecution and or police violated the law in such a grievous manner that they probably need to be investigated themselves

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    No, thats his job. It would be unethical and immoral to do anything else. And technicalities aren't just some little secret way for the attorney to get the guy off, they are a major mistake that the prosecution or police made that are there to protect people.
    If a criminal gets off on a "technicality" that is because the prosecution and or police violated the law in such a grievous manner that they probably need to be investigated themselves
    I get it, you donít. If he knows his client is guilty isnít it immoral to look for any technicality to get him a free card? I understand itís his job, but once itís blatantly obvious heís defending a guilty person, what then? Take the high road which is morally correct and sit back and let him be found guilty. Or fight some more in search of a any technicality to free the person because itís your job? Sorry, but I couldnít be in a position of fighting for an obviously guilty murderer.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    I get it, you donít. If he knows his client is guilty isnít it immoral to look for any technicality to get him a free card? I understand itís his job, but once itís blatantly obvious heís defending a guilty person, what then? Take the high road which is morally correct and sit back and let him be found guilty. Or fight some more in search of a any technicality to free the person because itís your job? Sorry, but I couldnít be in a position of fighting for an obviously guilty murderer.

    That's not taking the high road and and it is violation of the Oath of Attorney. It really is a scumbag move for an attorney to do that. It violates the very essence of our legal system and the right to a fair trail.

    Good thing you are not an attorney

  21. #21
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    It would be immoral to take a defense case and "sit back and let him be found guilty."
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    No, thats his job. It would be unethical and immoral to do anything else. And technicalities aren't just some little secret way for the attorney to get the guy off, they are a major mistake that the prosecution or police made that are there to protect people.
    If a criminal gets off on a "technicality" that is because the prosecution and or police violated the law in such a grievous manner that they probably need to be investigated themselves
    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    That's not taking the high road and and it is violation of the Oath of Attorney. It really is a scumbag move for an attorney to do that. It violates the very essence of our legal system and the right to a fair trail.
    These.

    You and I don't see eye to eye all the time, but you nailed it here.

    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    It would be immoral to take a defense case and "sit back and let him be found guilty."
    Absolutely.
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  23. #23
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    In addition to the myriad of reasons offered here there is a logistical reason: almost every single criminal case ends in a plea deal, without defense lawyers to handle the logistics of it, our courts would be a mess. The legal world exists with its own language and without a translator, defendants would be subject to the whims of the prosecution (handled by civil servants) and judges. Defense attorneys should not be thought of a their to argue their client is innocent, but to assist their client interpret the legal consequences of their actions, just one of which is a court case where the defendant adamantly perjures themselves in an effort to convince a bunch of strangers of their innocence. Most often what happens is a defense attorney lays out the options (plead guilty cut deal with prosecution or judge, get some leniency, or go to court and gamble.)

    A good defense attorney may convince their client that a plea deal may reduce the sentence, reduce the trauma upon victims, reduce costs, and reduce time spent in jail, or for murderers, avoid the possibility of capital punishment. While we the public may view the reduction of sentencing as repugnant, the sentencing still has to meet certain requirements (murderers are not often allowed to plea to a simple moving violation...unless the victim is a cyclist.)

  24. #24
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    If I do something really bad I want OJs lawyers.

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  25. #25
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    So when a person is up for murder and is found innocent but you as a defense attorney knew all along he was guilty thatís alright because you did your job to the best of your ability and won the case.

    Got it.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    So when a person is up for murder and is found innocent but you as a defense attorney knew all along he was guilty thatís alright because you did your job to the best of your ability and won the case.Got it.
    Please cite one real world example of your scenario. Everyone deserves a fair trial, a defense attorney simply plays a role in making that happen. And when there are juries involved I think it is far more likely an innocent person will be convicted before a killer goes free. It is an imperfect system but it's still one of the best.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    So when a person is up for murder and is found innocent but you as a defense attorney knew all along he was guilty thatís alright because you did your job to the best of your ability and won the case.

    Got it.
    How is it any different to a doctor saving someone who shot up a cinema or a school and were wounded by the police?
    There are some crappy jobs around, I mean if a solider can go to Afghanistan and shoot a person for a job, then defending someone accused of murder probably isn't as bad.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    How is it any different to a doctor saving someone who shot up a cinema or a school and were wounded by the police?
    There are some crappy jobs around, I mean if a solider can go to Afghanistan and shoot a person for a job, then defending someone accused of murder probably isn't as bad.
    I agree itís no different. Do they sleep at night? On to the next case.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    Please cite one real world example of your scenario. Everyone deserves a fair trial, a defense attorney simply plays a role in making that happen. And when there are juries involved I think it is far more likely an innocent person will be convicted before a killer goes free. It is an imperfect system but it's still one of the best.
    I wonít name, names.

    My point is, they defend even knowing they are guilty.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  30. #30
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    No idea. I'm not a lawyer. I'm sure everyone has to make tough decisions, some every day, some far less. Still I like to think that the process is worth it.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    I agree itís no different. Do they sleep at night? On to the next case.
    Are you saying Doctors should not try to save the life of criminal?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    Are you saying Doctors should not try to save the life of criminal?
    Nope, never said that.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  33. #33
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    DJ. I think others see your point, I'm just not sure many will agree with you.

  34. #34
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    Can-O-Worms officially opened. Have at it boys.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  35. #35
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    Well, if you look at legal aid lawyers success rates vs paid attorney success rate, there is a difference. Some places have legit, good lawyers on rotation for legal aid yet if those lawyers dont care they dont care and you may not get a solid defense but everyone has a legal right for a defence attorney even though the scales of justice are not even, especially for visible minorities.

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