do you think its important to have a good "stereo"?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    do you think its important to have a good "stereo"?

    I think so.

    I've always had potent stuff.
    Usually split systems with separate subs.

    but these days i'm not so sure anymore. people seems to be satistfied with a sh1t iphone and 1 dollar earbuds,
    and a usb/wifi speaker of the 2 inch variety. In my world those are called tweeters.

    my goal has always been to be able to play music just as loud as the clubs do, but cleaner and louder, if I want.

    whats your take on this?
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  2. #2
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    Absolutely!

    With nice clean bass
    Round and round we go

  3. #3
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    I have a car that's a lemon, and one of the few reasons I keep it (and keep putting $$ into it) is that the "stereo" sounds so good. Good-sounding music is extremely important to me, and if I didn't have it, well, you don't wanna know.

    I only listen to my CDs on my laptop with headphones, my home system or in my car. No phone, MP3 player or any of that crap-sounding shit.

    I'm not going to go as far as vinyl, though. Those pops drive me nuts.
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  4. #4
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    Vinyl is much worse technically speakin than cds/files but still I like them too. I only have club music on vinyl though. Since thats they way you spin it!
    Usually they did several masters for cd/vinyl and supposedly the vinyl techs (the old guard) knew how to compress and band limit stuff from the masters to make it sound as good as it could on vinyl.
    Vinyla has much lower bandwidth than cd and also much lower s/n ratio/resolution. maybe 12-13 bits at the very max, theoretically.

    Now i mostly listen to electronic music (club music), non commercial type and all that is made to be played at max volume of course. but there are many gems that dont need the max spl thing to sound good. they are meant to be heard at lower volumes, but even then its just as important to have good shit imo. these are 3 of my absolute favs. so beautiful. I think I heard these at least a 1000 times.

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  5. #5
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    I need a very good system for travel in all its forms. Therefore some Bose QC bluetooth ones for planes, and a very good car system for that. At home I usually listen on the Bose headphones, or sometimes on my Bose computer speakers while I am working at home.
    It's all Here. Now.

  6. #6
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    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  7. #7
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    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    I need a very good system for travel in all its forms. Therefore some Bose QC bluetooth ones for planes, and a very good car system for that. At home I usually listen on the Bose headphones, or sometimes on my Bose computer speakers while I am working at home.
    I tell you what. listen through phones will never sound as good as speakers.

    I have sennheiser hd650 and hd25, arguably maybe the best open phones ever made and probably definitely the best sounding closed ones made, but still these are nothing compared to speakers, at all volumes unfortunately. Its just too much that goes missing in phones.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

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    Specialized sucks ass.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    I tell you what. listen through phones will never sound as good as speakers.

    I have sennheiser hd650 and hd25, arguably maybe the best open phones ever made and probably definitely the best sounding closed ones made, but still these are nothing compared to speakers, at all volumes unfortunately. Its just too much that goes missing in phones.
    Agreed, ya gotta feel the bass

    And at Bose price point there's much better. Headphones, speakers, whatever
    Round and round we go

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    do you think its important to have a good "stereo"?
    It depends on how you define good.

    Stereo systems are not simply split into good and bad. There are many different aspects to music reproduction. Information retrieval, timing, pitch accuracy etc. Some systems are good at some things, poor at others or maybe poor at everything!

    For a system to be musically satisfying it needs to have a good balance of characteristics that allow you to understand the music and become involved with what the artists are saying. The thing is, it doesn't have to be super expensive to do this.

    The radio in your car can give you as much pleasure as a mega-buck hi-fi. I'm not saying that it will, but if it's a good car stereo, it can, because a car stereo can have a better overall balance of characteristics than a big system.

    Sadly, the poor digital systems that many people use are really hopeless at getting the fundamentals of music right. It has shaped the way people listen to music and effected the types of music that are popular, as there are types of music these systems just can't play! The average domestic stereo of the severities was better than today.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    It depends on how you define good.

    Stereo systems are not simply split into good and bad. There are many different aspects to music reproduction. Information retrieval, timing, pitch accuracy etc. Some systems are good at some things, poor at others or maybe poor at everything!

    For a system to be musically satisfying it needs to have a good balance of characteristics that allow you to understand the music and become involved with what the artists are saying. The thing is, it doesn't have to be super expensive to do this.
    For me that limit is about 105db or so full range. and it has to sound unaltered at that vol compared to low vol. well pretty much at least.

    You know, when you are pushing the volume, just for higher volume... If it doesn't sound better when you raise the volume, then you have reached the practical limit imo. no need to raise it more since there is no more good stuff to extract. well thats just my opinion. A good system though plays both good and loud.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    I tell you what. listen through phones will never sound as good as speakers.

    I have sennheiser hd650 and hd25, arguably maybe the best open phones ever made and probably definitely the best sounding closed ones made, but still these are nothing compared to speakers, at all volumes unfortunately. Its just too much that goes missing in phones.
    I agree, but I might get worse than that guy on United if I brought speakers on the plane with me... The Bose are the best wireless I have tried so far, and I get a good deal on them so that's why I use them.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    I agree, but I might get worse than that guy on United if I brought speakers on the plane with me... The Bose are the best wireless I have tried so far, and I get a good deal on them so that's why I use them.
    I completely understand. for flights and this noise cancceling shit theryre running i get it. good work!

    but now listen to this as loud as you can. if you can.
    shit goes missing in phones.... (3 vids, apparantly have to do 3 separate posts) but you probably all get the point.

    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  14. #14
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    my ****ing god!!!!!Q!
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  15. #15
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    A good stereo is a plus but what's more important is some taste in music. I sure as hell don't want to hear my neighbor cranking up rap crap or pansy ass bubblegum synthesized rattle trapping club noice that some call music.

    *rant over*
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    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  16. #16
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    **** yeah. and as expensive as your bose phones were. now you only have to spend like 20-50x more to "really get it".
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    A good stereo is a plus but what's more important is some taste in music. I sure as hell don't want to hear my neighbor cranking up rap crap or pansy ass bubblegum synthesized rattle trapping club noice that some call music.

    *rant over*
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  18. #18
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    Just like having a good pair of channel locks, a good stereo is a must in a man's cave.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    A good stereo is a plus but what's more important is some taste in music. I sure as hell don't want to hear my neighbor cranking up rap crap or pansy ass bubblegum synthesized rattle trapping club noice that some call music.

    *rant over*




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  20. #20
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    my mixer.

    thats 20dbu for u guys. and its an average reading

    do you think its important to have a good "stereo"?-mixuhrr.jpg
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  21. #21
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    and here is another wsong ypu havfge to hear in speakers, and i suggest you listen it through



    and another one
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  22. #22
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    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  23. #23
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    btw this is what a club sounds like

    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  24. #24
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    Got to have good speakers. The first thing I do when I get a different vehicle is rip out the speakers, usually small magnets and paper and replace them with quality speakers. The same in my house. A good receiver and quality speakers. I can't stand listening to shit equipment.


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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkMN View Post
    Got to have good speakers. The first thing I do when I get a different vehicle is rip out the speakers, usually small magnets and paper and replace them with quality speakers. The same in my house. A good receiver and quality speakers. I can't stand listening to shit equipment.


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    big magnets usually ensure loud volume at least. and thats half way there. big magnets - good output
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    big magnets usually ensure loud volume at least. and thats half way there. big magnets - good output
    Loud volume without distortion. Of course, you have to have good frequency response to along with it. 20 hz to 20 kHz is a. Good starting point.

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  27. #27
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    I have a pair of JBL LSR305 on my wishlist, for desktop speakers.

    If I were planning a home theater, a pair JBL Studio 590 would be on my wishlist.

    I don't listen to heavy music, nor have any desire for room shaking lows. I like the faithfully accurate sound signature of JBL, as opposed to the bass/treble boosted HiFi stuff, and like that they're the largest speaker mfg in the world (considering they're part of Harman), and produce the speakers found in a massive majority of movie theaters. They've done their research well on how to best enjoy music. Too bad they can't fit that tech into their cheap sub $40 ear buds, but I appreciate that they do fit it into the LSR305, which can be found for a little over $200 for the pair.
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  28. #28
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    Love a good stereo even though my hearing sucks. AR Classic Towers are my speakers of choice right now.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Don't be hatin on the Biebs.
    He's the male Brittany Spears.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    For me that limit is about 105db or so full range. and it has to sound unaltered at that vol compared to low vol. well pretty much at least.
    Either you're talking crap or you're an idiot. Listening to anything at that volume can and will damage your hearing fairly quickly so you're ether deaf or your stereo isn't actually that loud ;0)

    And it can't sound the same loud as it does at low volume. The basic physics of your amp and speakers means that it will sound different at different volumes but more importantly, you don't hear things the same at different volumes. The most noticeable variation in your hearing is that music sounds more compressed the louder it gets. This is often partially the stereo too but your ears can only cope with sound within a certain volume range. Go over that and you are not hearing things properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkMN View Post
    Of course, you have to have good frequency response to along with it. 20 hz to 20 kHz is a good starting point.
    It's not a bad finishing point as well considering you can't hear anything outside of that range ;0) Ok, a few gifted teenagers can hear slightly above 20KHz but if you're older than twenty-five you probably can't even hear that high. Once you get to about fifty if you can hear up to 12-15KHz you're doing ok.

    Very few domestic stereos can actually go down to 20KHz, even if they say they can. Getting clean sound that low certainly isn't cheap.

    The good thing is, despite manufacturer's claims, speakers haven't really got much better over the the last twenty years. In fact I would argue it's often the opposite. They've strived to make them cheaper to manufacture, not make them better. So if you want good speakers, buy used ones.

    Most good speakers are fairly reliable, if you don't abuse them, but the bit most likely to fail is the tweeter so checking the availability of tweeters is a good idea. My speakers are over thirty years old but I can still buy tweeters. Almost all B&W tweeters can still be repaired too.

  31. #31
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    It's kind of important to me but as much for the thunderous effects of movie viewing at home too.

    Aside from a Caddy Shack job at a golf resort for a few of my early-career years, I went to retail sales and sold what was still referred to by some old farts of the day as HI-FI. I stuck with it for about 6 years and was privy to the higher end gear of those days.

    It was a blessing and a curse as you might expect but once you "get into it" , there comes a time when you appreciate simplicity. **Like the bikes, less time fussing -more time to enjoy.

    From those days of custom designs, pre wired Doctors Homes, night club set up's, sound analyzing / signal processing and car audio install, I've settled on a system that's still 5.1 , Marantz electronics, and an array of Polk, Klipsch and Infinity speakers. Room acoustics like cars are so much the problem that if you can't 'read' the room, you will still accomplish some good by experimenting in set up and placement unless it's truly a room acoustically managed by design that's already good.

    My obstacle is extra subs. I always had one amplified sub, used to be Celestion and now a Polk. Was always a fan of the small to med bookshelf two-way on a stand as a sub satellite arrangement but years ago I was gifted some Infiinty towers that are a two-way with built in powered subs. Since they don't take up any more room than a speaker on stands anyways, I'm enjoying them more than I thought I would. Maybe on tech note my system is a 5.3

    Audyssey Sound Labs offers some features for tuning the sound to the room and can make some great headway in problem situations. We used to do this with dbX equip 35 years ago. Now it comes as a feature on some stuff these days ... luckily my Marantz.

    The Car;
    In 1983, General Motors got a CD player into the country before they were legally available. The exec came by our store to show it off. It was the Sony CDP-101 ($900 retail for a single disc) home player wired to a power converter so GM could do sound analyzing for car audio.

    I'd have thought car audio would be way more impressive by now if not long ago as per factory systems. In 1985, working in sales/marketing having left the audio salon, I had a Kenwood / Alpine / Boston Acoustics car set up in my company car that was quite nice. Used the dbX 2020 spectrum analyzer to set it up.
    Since then, nothing comes to mind other than over-rated BOSE car systems as factory options most refer to as BLOSE. My Infiniti coupe is factory BLOSE and my old Mazda was as is the new Mazda.
    It's sufficient for the time I spend in the car these days though and not worth the hassle of butchering up the factory dash and look.

    Maybe after new car-itis levels off, new car speaks.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post
    ...Years ago I was gifted some Infiinty towers that are a two-way with built in powered subs. Since they don't take up any more room than a speaker on stands anyways, I'm enjoying them more than I thought I would.
    It's very, very difficult to get separate subs to integrate properly. I really like the idea in theory, as large box loudspeakers have their own issues, but in practice it's a nightmare. There are several problems but one of the most intractable ones is having the bass and the rest of the frequency range coming from different places. The closer the drive units are to each other,. the tighter and more integrated the sound will be. I imagine you feel that your Infinity speakers boogie better?

    My last four cars have each had a stereo that was worse than the last :0( The last car had a Bose stereo with a sub which was pretty underwhelming and the current car is worse again. The best one I had was a Ford head unit and speakers I put in myself. Ford stereos always seem to sound nice.

  33. #33
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    In all of this discussion we have all ignored what really matters here. The source and the receptors. Listen to a direct to disc recording on a very good stereo versus a CD or mpwhatever, and there is no contest. No matter what speakers you are rocking. Also, the things we use to hear with are all rather different. Personally I have spent my lifetime involved in audio reproduction at all levels of concerts and events, and it don't mean shit if your source ain't up to snuff. As Prince used to tell his audio guy(s), "Don't change shit out there, the band are good enough"... not always the best policy, but you catch the drift...
    It's all Here. Now.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Listen to a direct to disc recording on a very good stereo versus a CD or mpwhatever, and there is no contest.
    I think that's the biggest issue with the way most people listen to music today. They want the convenience of playing music off their phone or computer without realising that the dog is crippled before it has even left the trap. Even CD has real problems and limitations and compressed music is a lot worse.

    That's why I say that domestic sound quality was better decades ago. Even cheap turntables produce a pleasant, musical sound, unlike the nasty digital boxes everyone has today. And having a good Hi-Fi was cool back then. Today it's all about convenience, integration etc. Where the sound comes out and what it actually sounds like is an afterthought.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    A good stereo is a plus but what's more important is some taste in music. I sure as hell don't want to hear my neighbor cranking up rap crap or pansy ass bubblegum synthesized rattle trapping club noice that some call music.

    *rant over*
    I could say the same for you and your classic rock fetish.
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  36. #36
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    I don't need it loud. Just quality background music. I hate having to yell to have a conversation with someone.

    I have 2 tuners, one for in the house and one for the back yard. Pandora via my Sonos is my primary route.

    The back yard has 4 Bose 151's strategically placed inside shrubs so the music just kind of happens.

  37. #37
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    Mr. Pig is clearly the audiophile up in here. Good stuff
    Round and round we go

  38. #38
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    I worked in a guys house last summer, he had a room built just for his sound system, french doors that opened up into a big entertainment room in his basement. He had over $200,000 (CDN) tied up into his stereo, he played a couple songs from one of Joe Bonamassa's live albums, never in my life have I heard music sound so good, close your eyes & its like you were there.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I think that's the biggest issue with the way most people listen to music today. They want the convenience of playing music off their phone or computer without realising that the dog is crippled before it has even left the trap. Even CD has real problems and limitations and compressed music is a lot worse.

    That's why I say that domestic sound quality was better decades ago. Even cheap turntables produce a pleasant, musical sound, unlike the nasty digital boxes everyone has today. And having a good Hi-Fi was cool back then. Today it's all about convenience, integration etc. Where the sound comes out and what it actually sounds like is an afterthought.
    There's good codecs on motherboards these days that pretty much make having a DAC redundant. I've seen respectable brands specifically design their chipset to minimize any possible interference/noise.

    Have fun cleaning your vinyl to minimize all those pops, crackling, and other noise (and still dealing with noise from imperfections), and storing them carefully to avoid damage, and dealing with handling large unwieldy media that holds minimal data. Have fun hunting the mint condition ones at the store... I'm sure you know they don't arrive at the store in pristine condition nor anywhere close to being perfectly flat.

    The price of convenience is relatively tiny. There's so much to gain from not being tethered down. Freedom isn't free. I love my Sansa Clip+, and wish they weren't discontinued. I have a FLAC library, but I find I rather have better battery life dealing with lower bitrate stuff. There's good compression codecs out now that sound surprisingly good, considering how small the file sizes are. Don't need to deal with sound mapping your room, or paying attention to tonally matching reverberation off the walls and ceiling and what not, when you're playing the sound directly to your ear. You won't find me bothering to place mics all over my room to shoot down odd harshness here or there. The most I'll do is some tweaking with a DSP (ex. iZotope), tuning with my own ears. In other words, I take care to not be an audio snob. I am happy there's so much tech out there that gives me the option to listen to decent quality music anywhere. I'm not letting some subjective high quality experience spoil what I find enjoyable for everyday quality.
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

  40. #40
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    Hell yes, with Bluetooth and aux port jack. Good sounding speaker system also required.

    My original factory tape deck (with OEM Infinity sound upgrade kit) in my 1996 Grand Voyager stopped working with the cassette adapter after a while. I finally replaced it with a nice Kenwood unit, dammit shouldn't have waited so long!

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  41. #41
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    There was a time when I had a nice Alpine deck, a couple Alpine V12 Expert amps, Infinity door speakers with separate tweeters (can't remember name/details), a Bazooka Tube, and Rockford Fosgates in the extra cab similar to the Infinitys. All cobbled together with Monster Cables and crossovers and dampening mats and such. I regularly had the truck gutted running wires and stuff. It did truly sound amazing, like you were immersed in the music. It sounded moar better with moar volume!

    Now I'm ok with the stock system in my new truck, lol!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfield View Post
    There was a time when I had a nice Alpine deck, a couple Alpine V12 Expert amps, Infinity door speakers with separate tweeters (can't remember name/details), a Bazooka Tube, and Rockford Fosgates in the extra cab similar to the Infinitys. All cobbled together with Monster Cables and crossovers and dampening mats and such. I regularly had the truck gutted running wires and stuff. It did truly sound amazing, like you were immersed in the music. It sounded moar better with moar volume!

    Now I'm ok with the stock system in my new truck, lol!
    That's all bad ass and all, but... I think the OP was talking house sound system.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    That's all bad ass and all, but... I think the OP was talking house sound system.
    I was simply giving examples of how important having a good stereo was when I was younger, and how I see things now.

    Relevant to the topic I think, no?
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    My truck doesn't even have a stereo anymore. When I got it the volume know was sticky and I took the knob off and was turning it with pliers when all of the sudden the whole apparatus broke. Since then I've had nothing to look forward to hearing while driving (which I don't do often). I thought about getting a CB radio since I noticed the previous owners had an antenna set up, but it's actually a HAM radio antenna, which I don't have a license for.
    dang

  45. #45
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    I mostly listen to podcasts, no need for a stereo most of the time (I rarely drive too). I have a feed full of mostly educational with a few entertainment feeds. I haven't had a decent sound system since...

    Shit, uh? 2002? I started riding motorcycles full time in 2002.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfield View Post
    I was simply giving examples of how important having a good stereo was when I was younger, and how I see things now.

    Relevant to the topic I think, no?
    Yes, mucho to a the topic. One thing I've had a lot of is quality car audio. JVC, Alpine, Pioneer, Jensen and some I'm sure I've forgotten. The best sounding speakers were Boston Acoustics. A set of two 6x9's costing $950 some 15 years ago. Amazing sound out of such a small package. Alpine being the next best sound IMO. I've got a JBL system in my truck that although factory it was special ordered. It has a 9" sub built in behind the rear seat and 7 speakers total. Along with amps.

    I also had a killer sound system in a 2002 Mustang GT that was factory but special ordered. It had 2 - 10" sub woofers built into the trunk with a tray of 4 amps. It was called a Mach 1000 which stood for 1000 watts of thumping madnesss. I pulled that sucker and sold it on eBay after I sold the Mustang. It actually pumped out 1140 watts of peak power. Only offered as a factory option in 2002. The later years had to be ordered through another company.

    A photo of the Mach 1000. 2002 Mustang GT

    do you think its important to have a good "stereo"?-img_2697.jpg

    do you think its important to have a good "stereo"?-img_2698.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    It's very, very difficult to get separate subs to integrate properly. I really like the idea in theory, as large box loudspeakers have their own issues, but in practice it's a nightmare. There are several problems but one of the most intractable ones is having the bass and the rest of the frequency range coming from different places. The closer the drive units are to each other,. the tighter and more integrated the sound will be. I imagine you feel that your Infinity speakers boogie better?
    Been lucky with the set up.

    The Infinity's do very well for sound stage or spatial imaging and the side-fired subs are 100 watt powered 8". I'm using the level control and crossover to more of the mid bass region on those. The Polk sub is left of center and not in or near a corner, no boom.
    It does well on it's own so I hadn't been tempted to try augmenting with lower range settings from the others.

    The set up as now is practical in the way it sounds and works and I've acquiesced with respect to settings that work for music and home theater.
    Once in a while I'll change up some things but for the most part, it does double duty with out much fuss. I rarely do any critical listening to music and run a few favorite Dish Net music channels for background.

    The Marantz has the room correction program Audyssey and the time delay options (correcting Haas effect) so the sound is tuned to the room and I have a slight delay bias for the front to rear channels.
    I used the ref below but the needed correction is pretty minimal as my rectangular room has the long walls running left and right.

    Vsound in air = [331.4 + 0.6 Tc]m/sec
    where Tc is the air temperature in Celsius.
    At a typical ambient temperature of 22 deg. Celsius (72 deg. Fahrenheit), the speed of sound in air is 345m/s or 1132ft/sec.

    This means that if say the difference in the distances between the surround and the main front speakers measured with respect to your main viewing position is 15ft, the required delay is ≈ 13msec., or approximately 1msec per foot.


    For the rear speakers, I went a little bigger than necessary because I wanted a tad extra punch and efficiency for sound levels on the movie effects. Those are Klipsch and match up well for the directional frequencies and effects.

    If I'm not actively watching tv, there are times I'll hear something off to the side and behind me so alarming that I run out to the back yard to see what it is.

    - Kind of embarrassing.
    "Before you criticize, you should walk a mile in their shoes. You'll be a mile away from them and you have their shoes"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    My last four cars have each had a stereo that was worse than the last :0( The last car had a Bose stereo with a sub which was pretty underwhelming and the current car is worse again. The best one I had was a Ford head unit and speakers I put in myself. Ford stereos always seem to sound nice.
    Reminds me of a an early Ford Focus I leased for 2 years, it was a Sony Xplod Limited Edition with a seriously nice sound upgrade, amp, sub / box.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    That's all bad ass and all, but... I think the OP was talking house sound system.
    hah hah

    Yeah but when the best sound system you have is in the car..... It was like that for me a few years.

    ** Such a blessing when I had that field rep job from 84 to 92 driving 35k a year or so.
    "Before you criticize, you should walk a mile in their shoes. You'll be a mile away from them and you have their shoes"

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    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post
    hah hah

    Yeah but when the best sound system you have is in the car..... It was like that for me a few years.

    ** Such a blessing when I had that field rep job from 84 to 92 driving 35k a year or so.
    So the best sound if you had to choose would be where you spend the most time. House or car. Some walk around in a daze wearing earbuds off an iPod.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    I couldn't care less. Sure I can appreciate a nice sound system, but it's nothing I'd spend money on. I never got into the surround sound craze for my TV either.
    I like bikes

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    Quote Originally Posted by yzedf View Post
    I couldn't care less. Sure I can appreciate a nice sound system, but it's nothing I'd spend money on. I never got into the surround sound craze for my TV either.
    Surround sound is a waste of time, in my opinion, and if you love your music on a 'modest' system then more power to you.

    It doesn't matter if it's watches, hi-fi or dog collars. Someone somewhere will make stupidly expensive ones and stupid people will buy them. It's possible that the performance will justify the price, but it's very, very unlikely.

  53. #53
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    I love my surround sound

    Makes a good movie much more enjoyable
    Round and round we go

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    I don't think it's important but it sure is nice to have a little (lots of) thumpage

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Surround sound is a waste of time, in my opinion, and if you love your music on a 'modest' system then more power to you.

    It doesn't matter if it's watches, hi-fi or dog collars. Someone somewhere will make stupidly expensive ones and stupid people will buy them. It's possible that the performance will justify the price, but it's very, very unlikely.
    Partially deaf in one ear, so a good system is wasted on me.
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  56. #56
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    In the car, I think so, since that's where I do all my listening.
    Mine's pretty basic this time around, with just a pair of good component 6.5 and tweets in the doors, JL HO box in the trunk, and ~500w total. I'd need a high output alternator, 3-4x the power, and really another car(my Corolla is still noisy in spite of full sound damping) to get it "right", but it's better than anything someone who isn't a car audio enthusiast is ever likely to lay ears on.

    One of the wonders of modern audio is affordable sound processing. I've got an Alpine HU that has capabilities we couldn't duplicate with a trunkload of gear 2-3 decades ago. My components are delayed, I don't even know by how many milliseconds 'cause you can set it by distance, and the bass is so "up front" and well-integrated with the soundstage that there's no sense of having a sub in the trunk except on low notes that cause vibration back there. Freaking amazing, as is the overall sound quality you can get with a small system if you use good components. Hard to believe there's one little class D amp under my passenger seat running everything, too.

    At home, I've just got old Infinity Reference speakers and powered sub paired with an even older harmon/kardon receiver(bought in 1992) and Onkyo DVD/CD player. Could use more power and crisper speakers, but I'm not a critic, and it's good enough that I've never cared for something better.

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    My home system is solid with von schweikert speakers and PSA dual 15 subs. I run separates as well. When watching movies at home, I want to feel I'm on par with a good thx theater (I am). My stock system in ram 3500 is alpine and it's decent...not really into a mega system for the vehicles though


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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by yzedf View Post
    Partially deaf in one ear, so a good system is wasted on me.
    Not really. If you can tell the difference between an ipod and a live band you can enjoy the benefits of a good stereo too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Not really. If you can tell the difference between an ipod and a live band you can enjoy the benefits of a good stereo too.
    Thanks for telling me how well my ears work
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    Quote Originally Posted by yzedf View Post
    Thanks for telling me how well my ears work
    Well you said you were partially deaf in one ear, which means the other ear is fine?

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    The Mark Levinson stereo in my Lexus is the best sounding car stereo I've ever had.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Well you said you were partially deaf in one ear, which means the other ear is fine?
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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    I was thinking Beethoven instead of Van Gogh.

    That aside, I find myself pleasantly amused that people have been listing off Harman brands in this thread (ex. JBL, Infinity, Mark Levinson).
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    I have a pair of JBL LSR305 on my wishlist, for desktop speakers.

    If I were planning a home theater, a pair JBL Studio 590 would be on my wishlist.

    I don't listen to heavy music, nor have any desire for room shaking lows. I like the faithfully accurate sound signature of JBL, as opposed to the bass/treble boosted HiFi stuff, and like that they're the largest speaker mfg in the world (considering they're part of Harman), and produce the speakers found in a massive majority of movie theaters. They've done their research well on how to best enjoy music. Too bad they can't fit that tech into their cheap sub $40 ear buds, but I appreciate that they do fit it into the LSR305, which can be found for a little over $200 for the pair.
    I have a pair of jbl 305s as my mains. and as stand alone speakers they are not that good to be honest.

    They play loud and clear no shit but compared to orther a/b class systems they just sound shitty.

    I'm guessing its due to the class d amps in these.

    sounded good in the store nho shit but at home in comparison with what I already had. not so good.

    beware.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Either you're talking crap or you're an idiot. Listening to anything at that volume can and will damage your hearing fairly quickly so you're ether deaf or your stereo isn't actually that loud ;0)

    And it can't sound the same loud as it does at low volume. The basic physics of your amp and speakers means that it will sound different at different volumes but more importantly, you don't hear things the same at different volumes. The most noticeable variation in your hearing is that music sounds more compressed the louder it gets. This is often partially the stereo too but your ears can only cope with sound within a certain volume range. Go over that and you are not hearing things properly.



    It's not a bad finishing point as well considering you can't hear anything outside of that range ;0) Ok, a few gifted teenagers can hear slightly above 20KHz but if you're older than twenty-five you probably can't even hear that high. Once you get to about fifty if you can hear up to 12-15KHz you're doing ok.

    Very few domestic stereos can actually go down to 20KHz, even if they say they can. Getting clean sound that low certainly isn't cheap.

    The good thing is, despite manufacturer's claims, speakers haven't really got much better over the the last twenty years. In fact I would argue it's often the opposite. They've strived to make them cheaper to manufacture, not make them better. So if you want good speakers, buy used ones.

    Most good speakers are fairly reliable, if you don't abuse them, but the bit most likely to fail is the tweeter so checking the availability of tweeters is a good idea. My speakers are over thirty years old but I can still buy tweeters. Almost all B&W tweeters can still be repaired too.
    I know goddamn well how sound works both psycho-acoustically and physically
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  66. #66
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    btw my current system
    jbl 305 @ 108db each, +6 db pair
    and 2 tc sounds 10 inch 58mm xmech woofers. so yes i can play at 105db and even 115 db if i want., they are 115db free and about +6db next to a wall.
    mixer: mackie 802 vlz4
    crossover: dbx 234xl
    soundcard: esi [email protected] at 22dbu out.

    whole system is balanced.

    sounds good here. gona swap out the jbls though. dont sound good enough

    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  67. #67
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    btw this tune https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raqxctNC04k mother of fukking god!

    very compressed and punchy.

    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

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    Stereo/hifi/home theater is a never ending rabbit hole. You can do an awful lot to improve the sound of any system with room treatments and specialized measuring equipment...speaker placement is critically important as well.

    That being said, Sound equipment is one area where you really do "get what you pay for"...usually. Jbl speakers (most of them) are quite pedestrian imo and are certainly nothing close to audiophile quality (Everest series notwithstanding). I have lower end Vons, but almost bought some VR4jr's a few years back. I see some new Von models run up to $225k/pair now...ouch! I can't even imagine...



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  69. #69
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    muddafukka!

    this is good shit at max blast!

    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  70. #70
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    Stop posting Spazzy Marr videos! Not impressed!!!
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  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtsum2 View Post
    Stereo/hifi/home theater is a never ending rabbit hole. You can do an awful lot to improve the sound of any system with room treatments and specialized measuring equipment...speaker placement is critically important as well.

    That being said, Sound equipment is one area where you really do "get what you pay for"...usually. Jbl speakers (most of them) are quite pedestrian imo and are certainly nothing close to audiophile quality (Everest series notwithstanding). I have lower end Vons, but almost bought some VR4jr's a few years back. I see some new Von models run up to $225k/pair now...ouch! I can't even imagine...



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    I build all my speakers myself. except cheap shit, that I buy. but there is more to it than speakers imo. like amps.

    not many companies builds good abusable amps. NAD and Rotel do though. Behringers copy series of qsc is also good (but fan cooled and therefore noisy), and it cost almost nothing.

    you get what you pay for: usually a speaker is 10% elemeny cost and the rest is shipping/handling/packing/advertising/and all other crap. whatever it might be. basically 10% of the cost of the speaker is the cost of the tweeter and woofer. thats how it works. so yoou definitely get what you pay for. but you usually only get 10%. I know the delopepment crew for a brand and this is how it works.

    get scan speak.
    vifa (dont exist any more)
    seas
    peerless (now chinese).

    and dont look back.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    Stop posting Spazzy Marr videos! Not impressed!!!
    wtf you wanna see then?
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    Stop posting Spazzy Marr videos! Not impressed!!!
    WHAT

    WHAT ABOUT THIS SHIT?
    starts about halfway in


    and yes i did do alot of x in the 00s so what. never hurt anyone. not even me
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  74. #74
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    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

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    are u happy now ?
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    I build all my speakers myself. except cheap shit, that I buy. but there is more to it than speakers imo. like amps.

    not many companies builds good abusable amps. NAD and Rotel do though. Behringers copy series of qsc is also good (but fan cooled and therefore noisy), and it cost almost nothing.

    you get what you pay for: usually a speaker is 10% elemeny cost and the rest is shipping/handling/packing/advertising/and all other crap. whatever it might be. basically 10% of the cost of the speaker is the cost of the tweeter and woofer. thats how it works. so yoou definitely get what you pay for. but you usually only get 10%. I know the delopepment crew for a brand and this is how it works.

    get scan speak.
    vifa (dont exist any more)
    seas
    peerless (now chinese).

    and dont look back.
    Very cool. I'm not handy enough to attempt to build speakers...mine would look like crap I'm sure and sound tinny and boxy.

    I had NAD separates awhile back but sold them...have Emotiva separates now...I like NAD...good quality at a decent price (relatively speaking).


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    Quote Originally Posted by gtsum2 View Post
    Very cool. I'm not handy enough to attempt to build speakers...mine would look like crap I'm sure and sound tinny and boxy.

    I had NAD separates awhile back but sold them...have Emotiva separates now...I like NAD...good quality at a decent price (relatively speaking).


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    I'll tell you what.

    the problem with speakers is not building them its measuring them!
    so you get linear response
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    I have a pair of jbl 305s as my mains. and as stand alone speakers they are not that good to be honest.

    They play loud and clear no shit but compared to orther a/b class systems they just sound shitty.

    I'm guessing its due to the class d amps in these.

    sounded good in the store nho shit but at home in comparison with what I already had. not so good.

    beware.
    I'll take a reliable modern high tech class d amp that has more than enough power (82W per speaker) to damage my hearing before it ever starts sounding distorted, over amps that are bulky, have overheating issues, and have more fragile componentry that can blow up.

    Sounding good is super subjective... people like their Hi-Fi boosts. What is it that you don't like about the JBL, that can't be tuned with a DSP? Pull out them audiophile words, like you want a more realistic sized soundstage or something, or you sense the cheap lightweight casing JBL used to fit their M2's tech into this affordable speaker misbehaving, vibrating and altering the sound subtlety. I'm wondering what you have in comparison... something that costs way more, takes up way more space, is heavier, plays much lower frequencies better?

    BTW, what exactly do you have set to +6 db? The LF/HF trim and input sensitivity don't go up that high. Don't tell me you basically turned up each up +2db and added it altogether... if you did, then I know why your speakers don't sound good as in the store any more.

    Regarding amps, I really hope you aren't going to try and talk me into analog (ex. tube) vs digital or some similar arbitrary or misconception/myth filled belief.

    In the end, the JBL LSR305s are studio monitors, not home audio/entertainment system speakers. They're supposed to be faithfully accurate. No sparkle, warmth, "airyness", extra large soundstage, etc. need apply.
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

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    Look, the bottom line is that this is all bollocks. Total bollocks.

    Is it nice to have a good stereo? Sure, it can be. Is it important? Not really. If you love music and can connect with it then you are there. The job is done and it does not matter whether or not you're using an iPod or a mega-bucks hi-fi system to play it on. If your music elicits the desired emotional response and involvement then your stereo works.

    I've been into hi-fi for over thirty-years and that is the most important thing I have learned. It sounds so obvious but it isn't to a lot of people. Thousands of hi-fi sheep spend a fortune on kit that does not make their music any more involving at all. In fact I've heard systems, which cost more than a small house, that are so boring it takes concentration to keep listening to them. Others are not that bad but still no more exiting than an iPod.

    Yes, expensive hi-fi can add a lot of things to music replay. More volume, deeper bass, more detail but how much of this is needed to convey the heart of a good song? If you play your favourite music, whether it's Elvis or Elbow, and it gets you. If excites you, moves you and you come away thinking 'That music is fantastic' then your stereo is good. It may not be good in 'hi-fi' terms but who cares. If it is good enough to connect you to your music then nothing else matters.

    'My woofies are bigger' and 'mine goes to eleven' is all just dick waving that has nothing whatsoever to do with actual appreciation of music. If your stereo doesn't push your buttons then please, feel free to find a better one but don't let anyone tell you that if you don't have the latest and loudest you are a looser. If you love your music, you've already won.

  80. #80
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    Well, tube amps do have their own sound signature, but I find them all to be inaccuracies.

    Tubes compress the bass, which can give listeners the "warmth" and allows them to turn up the volume to get "punchy" base without it sounding distorted or overbearing. In a faithful reproduction, bass loudness increases linearly with volume increase. In layman's terms, the bass's loudness is reduced at higher volumes in tubes. So what you get is people who enjoy vintage equipment who boost the bass at lower volumes, yet find it to be totally acceptable when the volume is turned up to 11, without all the rattling that is expected with increased loudness.

    Tubes limit levels as the volume gets louder. This makes sounds seem "fuller/deeper", because it is limiting the level of the primary sounds, preventing them from drowning out the softer sounds. It's different than detail, that you simply notice the softer sounds more, while detail is more about actually making out clarity and distinctiveness. A faithfully accurate system will play it as it would be heard in reality; if the softer sounds get drowned out, then that's how it's depicted.

    When tubes distort when they reach their limits, they don't do so in such a harsh/fizzy way. Their distortion is almost musical, at least for higher frequencies. This is the "sparkle" that some refer to.

    *shrug* I'm in this for the academics, since studying various waves in general helps with understanding science in the bigger picture. I'd go into analog vs digital (sampling), but there's already clear documentation on that available online. I merely referenced all this from my DSP, which has the ability to models a tube amp's characteristics. Having a speaker that is so tonally correct out-of-the-box is a great asset to have as baseline to experiment with. I'm not after clean accurate stuff, that's just for "lab testing" purposes (minimizing variables to make things simpler to test)... I'm more against questionable bias and judgement. I don't think snobs should be imposing their bias onto new listeners, as to what's desirable or not. I didn't want snobs to be able to freely criticize new listeners without any one to counter, about stuff like why they don't understand why new listeners like what they like... Bluetooth, mp3s, etc. totally have their worth.

    Anyways, JBL stuff on sale today at Amazon (see Arena series, daily deal). Also the Harmon site has JBL recertified stuff at a nice price, like their Sound Sticks or Charge 2+. I'm personally going ahead to gamble on a pair of B-stock LSR305s from ProAudioStar today (B-stock is hit or miss), rather than wait for new to hit similar prices. I love that waveguide on the 305.
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  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Well, tube amps do have their own sound signature, but I find them all to be inaccuracies...
    Very good summation of valve amps I think. While they can sound 'nice' the down side is that on certain music and in certain circumstances they can really screw your music up. Don't get me wrong, I've heard some great sounding valve amps but they're not for everyone. I wouldn't want one.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Look, the bottom line is that this is all bollocks. Total bollocks.

    Is it nice to have a good stereo? Sure, it can be. Is it important? Not really. If you love music and can connect with it then you are there. The job is done and it does not matter whether or not you're using an iPod or a mega-bucks hi-fi system to play it on. If your music elicits the desired emotional response and involvement then your stereo works.

    I've been into hi-fi for over thirty-years and that is the most important thing I have learned. It sounds so obvious but it isn't to a lot of people. Thousands of hi-fi sheep spend a fortune on kit that does not make their music any more involving at all. In fact I've heard systems, which cost more than a small house, that are so boring it takes concentration to keep listening to them. Others are not that bad but still no more exiting than an iPod.

    Yes, expensive hi-fi can add a lot of things to music replay. More volume, deeper bass, more detail but how much of this is needed to convey the heart of a good song? If you play your favourite music, whether it's Elvis or Elbow, and it gets you. If excites you, moves you and you come away thinking 'That music is fantastic' then your stereo is good. It may not be good in 'hi-fi' terms but who cares. If it is good enough to connect you to your music then nothing else matters.

    'My woofies are bigger' and 'mine goes to eleven' is all just dick waving that has nothing whatsoever to do with actual appreciation of music. If your stereo doesn't push your buttons then please, feel free to find a better one but don't let anyone tell you that if you don't have the latest and loudest you are a looser. If you love your music, you've already won.
    Absofukkinglutely! Nail, meet head

    Makes me laugh when people listen to electronic 'music' that has zero feel or warmth and expect their replay system to sound anything but loud. Acoustic Overkill just moves molecules, not the soul.
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  83. #83
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    Edit: Posted in the wrong thread.
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  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    I only listen to my CDs on my laptop with headphones, my home system or in my car. No phone, MP3 player or any of that crap-sounding shit.
    Are you being sarcastic? Phones have been able to play CD quality (WAV format, 16 bit, 44.1kHz stereo) for quite some time, and they certainly can handle the file size as my soon obsolete GS7 has a 128Gb SD card (210 hours of WAV storage).

    Any decent free music app can handle lossless formats (FLAC at CD quality would be 400 hours of music on a 128Gb card) much higher bit rates and range than WAV, and at least eight channels.

    And if you want audiophile listening, micro dac amps run from impossibly cheap to obnoxiously expensive.
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  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingtaco View Post
    Are you being sarcastic? Phones have been able to play CD quality (WAV format, 16 bit, 44.1kHz stereo) for quite some time..
    Sure, but bit-count and quality are not the same thing. You could play a DVD on both a cheap laptop and a five-grand projector but one will look a lot better than the other.

  86. #86
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    Bit count determines the resolution of the waveform, so it sets a hard limit on the quality of the reproduction. But yeah, that alone does not guarantee a quality reproduction. Did you read my entire post? I mentioned using a quality dac amp if your phone's is not up to snuff. There are phones out there, though, with decently high quality setups. V10/V20 come to mind, and the Marshall London, which will drive cans with no issues IIRC.
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  87. #87
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    When you're talking about 8 bit, 16 bit, and 24 bit audio resolution, you're talking about bit depth. Sorry, just wanted to correct that.

    Higher bit depth does typically mean more bit rate, since there's more data per sample (50% in this case), but the real reason to use higher bit depth is to minimize digital noise from quantization. At 16 bit, noise is already below noticable levels, but people seem to claim they can notice improvement between 24-bit audio and the same audio downsampled to 16-bit (in lossless format). Heck, some people claim they can hear beyond 20 KHz. I'm not going to judge anyone else, I only will judge what matters to me. Thanks to the wonders of advanced math used by codecs, to shrink strings of data down to more simplified expressions, I find I can trade off slight amounts of quality in order to make my portable music player's battery last longer, as processing lower bit rate sucks up proportionately less juice.

    Well, thanks to this thread, I went and schooled myself up on turntables, and holy cow there is a lot going on that can be messed up physically/mechanically. The motor needs to be spinning an extremely consistent speed, at a certain speed, to attain a certain pitch (that nightcore stuff actually is turntable pitch turned up). Besides motor, belt, gearing, etc. issues, even a loose pitch control knob can be causing the motor to be sped up and slowed down intermittently while playing. There's all sorts of calibration and balance needed, such as leveling everything, making sure everything is seated properly, tight, and lubricated if needed, addressing potential sources of vibration... even then, certain quirks pop up like how the stylus tracking poorly at certain parts of the record, like closer to the center, how the stylus's geometry has an effect on sound, and even environmental issues like temperature, humidity, static, etc. I don't think I need to touch on vinyl quality, like dust, scratches, etc. causing noise and skipping, etc. Kind of reminds me of the kind of mechanically inclined guys that enjoy making their mtn bikes finely oiled machines, who choose bikes carefully based on their fine mechanical properties, to get the desired level of ride quality (the best they've experienced, but always could be better).

    Then there's the issue of things out of your control, like different studio master versions. A song can sound different from an album to a release as a single, and record companies have trouble managing these versions. At the very least, you can detect the different levels and gain staging, regarding how one version plays louder than another. With an album, they have more control to strategize their gain staging across multiple tracks, to keep levels even and noise to a minimum, which isn't so simple despite 32 or 64-bit floating point resolution.

    Anyways, I get the impression that people are chasing dragons, trying to find that sweet high that they once experienced. Especially these analog lovers. Analog gives a lot more room to throw money at a problem on your end to affect the quality. With digital, well, you probably have to read up on Bob Katz's "Mastering Audio" to learn wtf they did in order to know what to do to make it better on your end through signal processing.
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  88. #88
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    Turntables are primarily engineering products, so it's hard to make good ones cheaply. Digital is more technology-based so you can get good digital products that don't cost much. There is one caveat though, music is analogue.

    Even a fairly basic turntable, despite its flaws and limitations, can easily give a warm, pleasing and highly involving sound. Digital can too but, judging by the number of products that get it wrong, it's a lot harder to do and very few digital sources can match the involvement and natural sound of a very good turntable. Turntables can have a bottomless sound that draws you in and makes it very easy to forget you are listening to recorded music in a way very few digital sources can match, if any.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Turntables are primarily engineering products, so it's hard to make good ones cheaply. Digital is more technology-based so you can get good digital products that don't cost much. There is one caveat though, music is analogue.

    Even a fairly basic turntable, despite its flaws and limitations, can easily give a warm, pleasing and highly involving sound. Digital can too but, judging by the number of products that get it wrong, it's a lot harder to do and very few digital sources can match the involvement and natural sound of a very good turntable. Turntables can have a bottomless sound that draws you in and makes it very easy to forget you are listening to recorded music in a way very few digital sources can match, if any.
    Like I said, a direct to disc recording on a very good turntable system is an experience in listening like no other. Unfortunately direct to disc is not widely available, and certainly not for anything much other than in reproducing 'acoustic' musical instruments, but the experience shows the not-so-subtle differences in reproduction systems.
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    Of course, if you put me in a room these days and asked me to try and tell the difference between systems, I might well not be able to any more. 45 years of live music have exacted their toll on my hearing!
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  91. #91
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    I always was "into" music as there was pretty much always something playing in the house while I was growing up. My dad was into classical, opera, classic rock. My mom was into jazz & classic rock. I (in the 80s) was listening to whatever the radio was pumping out. All of it. Channel surfing different sounds. While it was a few years after of the birth of what I consider modern music, everything was new. Rap, electronic and heavy metal were developing. They had been around for a decade or more but the artists were becoming more "polished" at their crafts. Knock the 80s if you want, but I feel it was musically very explorative and expansive.

    Music is art and art is subjective. A lot of art I don't get, but that doesn't make it any less art.

    Back in the late 90s I started to experience an affliction known as disposable income.

    Anyway, When I could buy my own equipment I read everything I could. I've forgotten more than most of my friends ever knew. While they were chasing watts, I was looking for balance. I felt, and still do, that balancing your system and tuning it to your space is far more critical than mere specs. My brother brought a buddy over (while I was at work) who was a sound guy at a club. It was only pushing 50w/channel and had a mid sized powered sub. He said it sounded better than the system at the club. The room it was in was small and I didn't need a lot of power or big speakers. Just the right balance. I could drive that thing full gas and if the source was clean, there was virtually no distortion. I think I was into the system for about $3,500.00. More than any of my bikes cost. My receiver died a few years ago and I haven't replaced it. I've played around with $10,000.00 speakers, $50,000,00 amps, and all manner of things I'll never be able to afford. It was in a store that was conceivably built out for sound reproduction, but they never sounded as good as my equipment.

    I disagree with those who poo poo vinyl. If everything is right, and analog, with no limits on reproduction range you get higher highs and lower lows, and while you may not hear them, there is a feeling you get when that "missing" information is reintroduced to the experience. That was what HDCD and SACD was trying to do when they hit the market. Neither is/was as good at the task as vinyl is.

    Funny thing is, it's all relative. You can buy a "mountain" bike or stereo system at Wally World for $90.00. You can buy a buy a mountain bike or a stereo system for $8,000.00. They are different animals entirely, and so will be the experience.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_Re View Post
    Knock the 80s if you want, but I feel it was musically very exploitative and expansive.
    Agree. Musically the best decade.

  93. #93
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    Listening to Falco right now. Cha!
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  94. #94
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    A lot of electronic/synth stuff allowing musicians to great creative with melodies, also making it possible to do it all solo. A solo street violinist performing a song with a lot of depth to it, that would require a 4 man rock band traditionally, is a feat of technology. I don't mind seeing it for instruments, even electronic drum sets, but the whole voice altering thing somehow bugs me. I like hearing new instruments integrated into classics. Some music has me wondering, what the heck is that instrument... sometimes I hear some sounds like a maraca with a set of serrated ridges that is being beat with a small stick while also being shaken, and having the stick rubbed against the serrations, along a traditional orchestral ensemble.

    My "poo poo" on vinyl is that I don't get the hype behind it. Seems like so much effort, yet the benefits are hard to describe in any tangible way. Clarity and depth, sure, but I suppose I need to listen for myself to understand why such $$$ and inconvenience is being so hyped.
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  95. #95
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    Yes

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    When you're talking about 8 bit, 16 bit, and 24 bit audio resolution, you're talking about bit depth. Sorry, just wanted to correct that.
    I guess I don't clarify enough... Yes, bit depth is the amount of data space available to each sample, but it still affects the quality of the recording. The data space sets limits to SNR, the ability to reproduce lossless data, and dynamic range.

    Please note that this is in reference to producing faithful reproductions rather than those that use dithering, oversampling, etc to mitigate the errors produced by lower bit recordings.
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  97. #97
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    I agree. I have a high-end system with a recently restored record player and the sound is amazing to me and my friends.
    Vinyl is making a comeback for a reason, it does sound fuller specially with classical music. CD's are great in respect to portability, but don't have eternal life either as some of my earlier CD's are crapping out.
    My stereo system 'only' puts out 45 watts/channel but I can crank it up to maximum volume without the speakers 'clipping'. It is about individual choice, but a $10 sh^tbox from Chinamart doesn't cut it for me... YMMV
    Last edited by OscarW; 08-10-2017 at 05:58 AM.
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  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by OscarW View Post
    Vinyl is making a comeback for a reason..
    I think there are several reasons but the nice sound is certainly one of them. For kids brought up on phone-music a vinyl record sounds pretty special.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I think there are several reasons but the nice sound is certainly one of them. For kids brought up on phone-music a vinyl record sounds pretty special.
    Nothing like the crackle, crackle then skip, skip sound. Then bumping the needle to get it off the never ending loop of the skip.

    Good stuff!
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  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Nothing like the crackle, crackle then skip, skip sound. Then bumping the needle to get it off the never ending loop of the skip.
    You're right, my turntable is nothing like that ;0)

  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by OscarW View Post
    I agree. I have a high-end system with a recently restored record player and the sound is amazing to me and my friends.
    Vinyl is making a comeback for a reason, it does sound fuller specially with classical music. CD's are great in respect to portability, but don't have eternal life either as some of my earlier CD's are crapping out.
    My stereo system 'only' puts out 45 watts/channel but I can crank it up to maximum volume without the speakers 'clipping'. It is about individual choice, but a $10 inbox from Chinmart doesn't cut it for me... YMMV
    I'm not sure CD's are considered portable anymore. I've still got one of the yellow Sony Sportsman CD players (and one of the original anodized aluminum players of the early 90's), but even burning mp3's gets you just 40-50 songs before the quality turns to dust. I had maybe 350 CD's, and cherry picking favorites meant I still needed at 10 CD's on hand to have a decently diverse listening to get me through work. Carrying 10 CD's, even in a sleeve case, was not particularly convenient (or light) as I also had to carry the player.

    Portable? Sure. I've got a 60lb sewing machine that is also 'portable'.
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    ^ I meant portable in a sense that CD's are more easily played in a car or motorcycle... I had a BMW K1200LT that came with a CD changer in the side case. It was of course promptly removed by me to gain storage for luggage and I used my I-Pod for music.
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    I miss car CD players. The last two cars had 6-CD changers and I liked that set-up. If you were going out to the car and wanted to take an album with you you could just grab it and chuck it in the changer.

    The current can has a USB socket, blue-tooth etc but I'm not a fan. You have to plan taking music to the car as it has to be transferred onto the phone or USB stick beforehand. End up just listening to the radio instead.

  104. #104
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    I've got a premium Clarion CD player from the early 90's and a triple Fosgate setup from before they became Best Buy crap to back it up. The Clarion lets you assign the music genre to each station... I found that very useful, but RDS was right around the corner

    Still got the setup, but never got about to dealing with the double-din space of my Escape, and now everything has gone digital, and all but two of the stations that play decent rock have pushed pushed their lineup to the sidebands and play pop on their main digital and old analog channel.

    The vehicle I'll get this winter will have one of those integrated units, and I think I'll be SOL for anything other than getting level converters and installing my amps and speakers, because they integrate so much vehicle activity into the touch screens now, I won't want to lose functionality.

    Then you've got the vehicles like my wife's 2013 Escape where there is a display at one end of the dash, controls at the other. Can't imaging someone making a faceplate that's a few feet in diameter to replace all that stuff so you can stick a din stereo in the dash.
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  105. #105
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    These days, I'm not a terribly discriminating listener beyond liking components with a certain tonal balance that "sound right" to me and a good sub for some dynamic low end to back them up. Going digital has been ok with me. I'm not happy with anything I've copied from CD, but downloads from Amazon Music have mostly(they can be low quality, too) been good enough.
    Currently have this head unit, which I've been using >3yrs:
    Alpine
    It has an auxilary input that I routed behind my glove compartment. Having everything on a USB drive is so convenient when driving that I may eventually move to one of the versions that has the same features and sound processing, but ditches the CD player altogether.

  106. #106
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    PM me if anyone has any vintage Marantz or Sansui (or comparable) receivers they'd want to sell/part with/give away.

  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer View Post
    PM me if anyone has any vintage Marantz or Sansui (or comparable) receivers they'd want to sell/part with/give away.
    What is it you Americans have about receivers? A big receiver is your de-facto Hi-Fi amplification solution. Here in the UK receivers exist but were always considered a compromise with most people opting for a separate amp and source components. It's interesting to see how different cultures have developed different strategies.

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    What is it you Americans have about receivers? A big receiver is your de-facto Hi-Fi amplification solution. Here in the UK receivers exist but were always considered a compromise with most people opting for a separate amp and source components. It's interesting to see how different cultures have developed different strategies.
    I actually still have my old workhorse Technics components setup; amp/pre-amp, tuner, EQ. 165w RMS x5 19 years ago was a beast of a unit, still is actually, and still works flawlessly.

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by HPIguy View Post
    165w RMS x5
    An AV amp?

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    Many years ago I was deep in car stereo. Nowadays not so much but I do have a modest system consisting of some Rockford amps, higher-end Pioneer mids/highs, and a Sundown Audio 10" sub. Nothing special but leaps and bounds better than the factory system.

    I also have a small 2.1 home system on my computer and another on my TV. Again...nothing crazy but enough to shake the windows if I want and the mid/highs are pretty great for a budget system.

    Headphones are another one I was into for a while. At the moment I've kinda gotten out of the hobby but still have a pair of Grado RS1, Philips Fidelio X2, Denon D2000, and Etymotic ER4's and run them off either a Cmoy, Little Dot 1+, or my Schitt Audio Magni 2 Uber.
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  111. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    An AV amp?
    Yep, but as usual, can drop down to 2ch for music only.

  112. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by HPIguy View Post
    Yep, but as usual, can drop down to 2ch for music only.
    Yeah, but what I'm saying is that in the UK there was a big push in the seventies through eighties to have components that were as simple as possible. The theory was that any unnecessary features in a component cost money and compromised the sound quality. The hi-end British manufacturers typically made amplifiers with little or no extra features, not even tone controls, and these were the products most audiophiles aspired to.

    These types of product still exist but the market has shifted so much even the most hard-line minimalist manufactures now make feature-laden all-in-one boxes that do everything bar making your dinner!

    So was the minimalist philosophy bull? Not entirely, but it was exaggerated.

    I just think it's funny that the British audiophile sought to buy amplifiers that didn't have tone controls while American ones wanted boxes that did as much as possible!

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    I'll show you what I mean.

    One of the leading proponents of minimalist Hi-Fi was Naim Audio. At the time the box shown below, the NAC-32, came out it was their best pre-amp. Note, pre-amp, that's it. All the box does is volume control and switch inputs. It does not even a have a power-supply/transformer in it! To make it work you need a Hi-Cap power-supply and to get sound out you need to plug it into power-amplifier so that's a minimum of three boxes, just for your amplifier. At that time Naim made no integrated amplifiers let alone receivers.

    do you think its important to have a good "stereo"?-873956-naim-nac-32-ou-325-ou-72.jpg

    Fast forward and today Naim make this, the Unity Star. CD player, amplifier, DAB radio, music streamer, SD card slot, heck the list is endless. So far removed from their roots it's ridiculous, so why the shift? Because if they still only made minimalist products, they'd be out of business.

    do you think its important to have a good "stereo"?-engineering_design_-_star.jpg

  114. #114
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    I like a decent stereo, but I guess, decent is subjective.
    Main room is a mid range Yamaha AV amp, with B&W speakers and sub with Sony TV and PS4 and PVR.
    Other room is Low en Sony amp with Bose speakers (little cube ones I "borrowed" permanently) with NAD turn table
    Traveling is Bose noise cancelling headphones I got when travelling to Japan when my AKG's fell to bits.

    Stereo in the car is the factory one, which is fine in the driving along with music on, but as soon as yo want to turn it up loud...nope

    Nothing fantastic but it all does the job fine, but I would like a fancy pants amp one day just for the "I want one" factor... but till then this will do fine.
    All the gear and no idea.

  115. #115
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    For me it is important. Last year I bought an old truck that came with a cassette/cd combo deck. Not only was it was under powered it also didn't work right. It wasn't long before I invested in a double din deck with cd/DVD player, blue tooth etc. I also found a killler deal on a small sub with amp and bought it also. Sounds freaking amazing and I'm now a very happy man.

  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I just think it's funny that the British audiophile sought to buy amplifiers that didn't have tone controls while American ones wanted boxes that did as much as possible!
    I think any true audiophile would seek the same, regardless of nationality. I know plenty of people myself that did just that. But alas, I'm no audiophile, not even close. But I completely appreciate the fact that people get that into it. No different than any hobby really. The only limit is usually your wallet.

  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig
    So was the minimalist philosophy bull? Not entirely, but it was exaggerated.
    Have you come across the Zen amplifier? This takes minimalism to its illogical conclusion by being a power amp with only one transistor. By rights it should sound appalling, but a lot of people do seem to like them. A friend of mine built one out of curiosity, and it did indeed sound much nicer than one might expect. I think what's going on here is that the Zen amp has a horrendous distortion spec, but it's nice 2nd and 4th order harmonic distortion like a valve amp, not the nasty higher-order (5th, 7th, 9th) odd harmonics that a bad bipolar transistor amp will produce.

    I like sensible minimalism, me. Give me tone and balance controls that can be switched out with nice gold-flashed signal relays. Nuts to the Zen silliness though.
    Hose me down till the water runs clear.

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grassington View Post
    Have you come across the Zen amplifier? This takes minimalism to its illogical conclusion by being a power amp with only one transistor.
    I haven't, but I've seen other similar minimalist fringe audio philosophies. They tend to be popular with DIYers and modders, probably because they're relatively easy to make.

    My problem with stuff like this is it tends not to be very well rounded. It'll sound fantastic on some kinds of music, rubbish on others. It's usually very clean, simple signal that works, so female vocals with sparse acoustic backing sounds nice, but things fall to bits when it gets busy, loud and demanding. Years ago I built a passive step-up transformer for a Denon moving coil cartridge I was using at the time. The vintage guys insisted it was the way to go with this cart, it was if you only listened to vintage female singers! Start throwing some modern rock through it and the poor thing put its hands up. It got all dull and confused and properly weird things went on in the bass.

    It's always worth at least trying things, you never know what you might be missing, but the stuff on the fringes tends to be there for a reason.

  119. #119
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    Hey Mr Pig, I know this is off topic, do you have any experience with digitizing record albums, like converting them to MP3s?

    I've been converting all my CDs and want to do my records. I've got a stand alone CD recorder with RCA inputs that I've used to record records onto CDs in the past, but was wondering about RCA to computer inputs.
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  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfield View Post
    Hey Mr Pig, I know this is off topic, do you have any experience with digitizing record albums, like converting them to MP3s?
    I've never done it, never had the desire, but it's not hard. If your computer/sound card has a microphone socket then you can just plug the output from your amp tape outputs into that. That's the Walmart way to do it ;0)

    If you want better quality what you want is a better sound card or separate audio interface. You'll probably have seen stand-alone DACs, Digital to Analogue Converters. They are a popular means of getting digital sounds into your Hi-Fi. An audio interface is just the same thing but it can turn analogue into digital as well.

    They vary in price enormously but even the cheap ones sound ok and will certainly be good enough for portable/MP3 use. My son has one of these, it's a relatively good one, but even a cheap Behringer one is going to work. You can probably buy a Chinese one on eBay for a few quid that'll do the job.

    do you think its important to have a good "stereo"?-81ajj4r8r5l__sl1500_.jpg

  121. #121
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    Thanks Mr Pig! I'll look for one on amazon. I just got a flash drive that's about the size of my thumbnail and holds thousands of songs. A lot easier than hauling my vinyl collection around and listening to them on a record player in my truck.
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  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfield View Post
    I just got a flash drive that's about the size of my thumbnail and holds thousands of songs.
    Yeah, as always, it's just a question of quality. There isn't much point in spending hundreds on an interface just to play MP3s in the car. Having said that, the sound quality of the cheap interfaces really isn't that bad. You'll be surprized.

  123. #123
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    Yeah, my standards for sound quality get lower as I get older, lol. I'll take convenience over quality, which as you say doesn't sound too bad generally. I'll still have my vinyl for if and when I do get into better sounding stuff. I've converted some YouTube songs to MP3 that sound just fine on my $50 Kenwood car stereo stored on a $10 USB thumb drive.
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  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I haven't, but I've seen other similar minimalist fringe audio philosophies. They tend to be popular with DIYers and modders, probably because they're relatively easy to make.

    My problem with stuff like this is it tends not to be very well rounded. It'll sound fantastic on some kinds of music, rubbish on others. It's usually very clean, simple signal that works, so female vocals with sparse acoustic backing sounds nice, but things fall to bits when it gets busy, loud and demanding. Years ago I built a passive step-up transformer for a Denon moving coil cartridge I was using at the time. The vintage guys insisted it was the way to go with this cart, it was if you only listened to vintage female singers! Start throwing some modern rock through it and the poor thing put its hands up. It got all dull and confused and properly weird things went on in the bass.

    It's always worth at least trying things, you never know what you might be missing, but the stuff on the fringes tends to be there for a reason.
    I'd agree with all of that. It's very true that sparse music sounds good on a lot of systems, but the real test for a hi-fi system is music that's dense and lush. The nastiness is usually due to intermodulation distortion (IMD), where two frequencies mix together and any non-linearities produce two spurious "sum and difference" frequencies that aren't harmonically related to the originals. This is bad enough with two pure tones, but with music where there's a lot going on the IMD products make a right mess. It's interesting that you say that female vocals aren't as affected - the average female voice has a narrower bandwidth than the average male voice, so fewer grating IMD frequencies will be produced.

    One method to reduce IMD is to crank up the negative feedback on the power amp. This produces a total harmonic distortion (THD) figure with lots of zeroes after the decimal place, which the marketing guys love, but it also reduces the stability margins of the amp so that fast transients (hi hats, say) make the amp ring like a bell slightly. This doesn't sound too bad at first, but becomes quite fatiguing after a while.

    Intermodulation distortion is also why some people can hear normally inaudible ultrasonic frequencies, usually emanating from a whining electronic power supply. These people have a type of tinnitus due to spastic ear muscles that can actually be mic'd up and measured - their ears are actually acting like little speakers! The internal ear whine and the ultrasonic electronic whine intermodulate, and if the difference frequency falls into the audible range then it can be heard.
    Hose me down till the water runs clear.

  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfield View Post
    I've converted some YouTube songs to MP3 that sound just fine on my $50 Kenwood car stereo stored on a $10 USB thumb drive.
    You could upgrade to cassette! ;0)

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grassington View Post
    It's interesting that you say that female vocals aren't as affected - the average female voice has a narrower bandwidth than the average male voice...
    When I went into Hi-Fi shops years ago female vocal or solo guitar were pretty near the top of the list of dem music choices because it's easy to get a Hi-fi to do them convincingly. Rock music is a different ball game! And compressed rock/pop on CD is nightmare ;0) When I bought my first CD player I took in a CD of Hanson 'Middle Of Nowhere' and said 'I want a CD player that can deal with stuff like this'. The guys in the shop were a bit snooty about it but it's about the kit playing your music, not you choosing music that shows off the kit.

  127. #127
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  128. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grassington View Post
    Intermodulation distortion is also why some people can hear normally inaudible ultrasonic frequencies, usually emanating from a whining electronic power supply. These people have a type of tinnitus due to spastic ear muscles that can actually be mic'd up and measured - their ears are actually acting like little speakers! The internal ear whine and the ultrasonic electronic whine intermodulate, and if the difference frequency falls into the audible range then it can be heard.
    Fascinating. This is probably me. I've long known that I've had issues with hearing whines from electronic power supplies. Sometimes they've been bad enough to produce crippling migraines. There are a couple of instances in particular that are notable.

    I took a piano class in college, where the pianos were all electric and the instructor had a big mixer so she could hear just individual players. I walked into class one day and hit the deck from the screech. Most people in class heard absolutely nothing. One other student admitted to hearing a "faint buzzing". After grimacing through it, I was able to identify the location of the sound to the instructor's area. She looked at her mixer board and saw that one of the knobs was jacked way off. She turned it down and the noise disappeared.

    I've always been able to hear CRT TV's and monitors. They always got worse as they aged.

  129. #129
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    To the OP.... NO

  130. #130
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    Get yourself connected, connected to the Stereo...

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  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    I've always been able to hear CRT TV's and monitors.
    My eldest son can hear them as well. We have a small Sony CRT in the kitchen and he moans about it all the time. No one else can hear it. We sent him for a hearing test and they said his hearing was as good as it was possible for human hearing to be. He could hear the whine above 20k that even his teenage siblings couldn't hear.

    I'm wondering if he has the same thing as you. When I was young my high-frequency hearing was good but it was never much of a problem where as he says the noise off the TV is terrible.

  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    My eldest son can hear them as well. We have a small Sony CRT in the kitchen and he moans about it all the time. No one else can hear it. We sent him for a hearing test and they said his hearing was as good as it was possible for human hearing to be. He could hear the whine above 20k that even his teenage siblings couldn't hear.

    I'm wondering if he has the same thing as you. When I was young my high-frequency hearing was good but it was never much of a problem where as he says the noise off the TV is terrible.
    I can also hear dog whistles plain as day. I remember an occasion in high school where a guy was walking down the hallway blowing one, and I think I was the only person who turned to look at him.

    In middle school, I was crippled by the crappy sound system that the gym teacher used during an aerobics class to play some Whitney Houston song or another. I was not sad to spend the period in the nurse's office that day.

    I also have difficulties processing sounds in "busy" environments. Picking out one person's speech in a noisy room. Picking out lyrics in a song with lots of complicated music. That sort of stuff. I pick out bird songs sooner than many, but have a difficult time identifying the song in many situations. I am quite good at identifying the direction of the source of a sound.

    Loud concerts have always been a problem for me. I just can't enjoy them unless I'm FAAAAAR away from the sound source.

  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    I also have difficulties processing sounds in "busy" environments. Picking out one person's speech in a noisy room. Picking out lyrics in a song with lots of complicated music. That sort of stuff. I pick out bird songs sooner than many, but have a difficult time identifying the song in many situations. I am quite good at identifying the direction of the source of a sound.

    Loud concerts have always been a problem for me. I just can't enjoy them unless I'm FAAAAAR away from the sound source.
    Na, my son doesn't have any issues like that, he's just got very good hearing. I was asking him about it the other day. He complains about it and can't wait until he looses the high end and I keep telling him he's an idiot. He should be taking care of his hearing, it's a gift, especially as he's a sound engineer! But he gets all obsessive about these things. Right now he's ripping apart my daughters little recoding suite to try and silence a background whine she almost certainly hasn't even noticed.

  134. #134
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    That's interesting to hear the experiences of Harold and young Master Pig. Quite often people who complain about whines that no-one else can hear don't get believed, but it's very easy to prove or disprove by turning off the electrical appliances one by one until the noise disappears. It's an increasing problem these days due to the proliferation of switched mode power supplies (SMPS), which are nice and efficient but do produce ultrasonic noise due to magnetorestriction in the transformers and inductors that are being constantly hammered by a train of pulses. SMPSs don't normally run lower than 50 kHz, but under light loads they can skip pulses and make noise at lower frequencies.

    I've dug around on an old hard drive for some simulations I did ages ago to illustrate intermodulation distortion. I've taken two sine waves (pure tones) of different frequency, and mixed them together in a fairly clean amplifier, and then again in a distorting amplifier. The first pic shows (from top to bottom): 25 kHz pure sine wave, 30 kHz pure sine wave, both sine waves mixed together in a fairly clean amp, both sine waves mixed together in a distorting amp:

    do you think its important to have a good "stereo"?-non-linearmixerytplot.gif

    Next pic is a fast fourier transform (FFT) of the output of the clean amp. Read it like a spectrum analyser display:

    do you think its important to have a good "stereo"?-non-linearmixerfft-cleanmix.gif

    There are 2 big spikes at 25 kHz and 30 kHz - our clean signals - plus some tiny spikes higher up (it's only a clean-ish amp):

    Lastly, the spectral content of the distorting amp:

    do you think its important to have a good "stereo"?-non-linearmixerfft-non-linearmix.gif

    What a mess, and that's only with two pure tones! Put some actual music in there and it'll turn to mud. The 25 kHz and 30 kHz tones are the strongest signals, but the second-biggest spikes are at 5 kHz (=30-25 kHz) and 55 kHz (30+25 kHz). If that's not bad enough, each spurious tone produced will interact with every other frequency, and so on, until there are spurious tones everywhere. In this example the numbers fall so that the spikes are all 5 kHz apart - with hindsight I should have chosen source frequencies that were prime numbers as unfortunately the harmonic distortion spikes fall on the same numbers as some of the intermodulation distortion spikes.

    I agree that Mr Pig's son is more likely to have very good hearing rather than tinnitus, and long may that happy state remain - modern PA systems can be brutal, and I know many musicians and DJs who have copped a dose of tinnitus. My ears are whining slightly at the moment 'cos I'm a bit tired, but the only superpower I have is the ability to tell whether it's been raining, courtesy of an old leg injury.

    Anyhoo, that's the effect of IMD for you. I've exaggerated the distortion levels for illustrative purposes, but it is very good proof why Mr Pig is more than justified in rejecting guitar-and-female-vocals recordings for hi-fi listening tests.
    Hose me down till the water runs clear.

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grassington View Post
    That's interesting to hear the experiences of Harold and young Master Pig. Quite often people who complain about whines that no-one else can hear don't get believed, but it's very easy to prove or disprove by turning off the electrical appliances one by one until the noise disappears. It's an increasing problem these days due to the proliferation of switched mode power supplies (SMPS), which are nice and efficient but do produce ultrasonic noise due to magnetorestriction in the transformers and inductors that are being constantly hammered by a train of pulses. SMPSs don't normally run lower than 50 kHz, but under light loads they can skip pulses and make noise at lower frequencies.
    I have been noticing a high pitched whine since I moved into this new apartment about 2mo ago. Not sure if it is legit tinnitus that I am only just now noticing because it is much quieter in general here than the last place I lived, or if there is something electronic that is causing it. I am leaning towards tinnitus, because there appears to be no directionality to it. Shame, if so.

    I used to simply have sensitive hearing, but pretty sure some of my more excruciating moments have caused some damage.

    I can certainly agree that throughout my life, people have said I was crazy because I thought I heard something. People who know me have learned to pay attention when I say I hear something.

    More than that, though, is my sense of smell. I know and can identify smells of things most people have never smelled. Sycamore trees have a smell. One of my favorites. Strong smells are also problematic for me.

    I have identified problems with friends' cars based on both my hearing and smell...when they never knew they had a problem. Once discovered a friend's car was burning antifreeze and venting the vapors into the cabin. She never noticed the smell.

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  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grassington View Post
    I've dug around on an old hard drive for some simulations I did ages ago to illustrate intermodulation distortion.
    That's pretty awesome, thank you :0) There is a difference between knowing something exists and seeing exactly how it works.

    I've had tinnitus for many years and to be honest, it doesn't bother me that much. I can hear it right now but if I don't think about it it's easy to ignore. You would know if you had tinnitus Harold as it never goes away and never changes. It's a constant tone, twenty-four seven.

  137. #137
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    I'm cursed with the ability to discern good stereos from bad. Just like mountain bikes, once you experience the benefits of high quality equipment, it's hard to go back to the cheap stuff.

    For 2 channel music, I don't use any sound processing, and try to tune the sound with room treatments (Gik). For movies, I'll let my receiver do its magic

    Main stereo:
    Salk HT2-TL Speakers
    Audio Van Alstine fetvalve preamp and amps
    Eastern electric DAC
    Marantz receiver for movies
    2 Powersound 15" subs for movies

    Bedroom:
    Salk Songtower RT speakers
    Audio Van Alstine preamp and amp

    Shop:
    Swans

    Wife's Bluetooth speaker:
    Audioengine B2

    Desktop:
    160GB Ipod (Old)
    Nuforce DAC / Amp
    Ortofone headphones

    Car - Previous system (currently just have upgraded coaxial speakers with lots of sound deadening)
    Mids - Image Dynamics
    Horns - Image Dynamics
    Subs - Image Dynamics
    Processor - Alpine
    Head unit - Alpine
    Amps - Alpine - Separate amps for horns, mids, and subs

    Yardwork / Mowing:
    Etymotic IEM

    Mountain Biking:
    Aftershokz Bluetooth (not the best sound quality, but these allow me to hear everything on the trail)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails do you think its important to have a good "stereo"?-20160530_180613.jpg  

    Last edited by coke; 09-28-2017 at 05:04 AM.

  138. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer View Post
    PM me if anyone has any vintage Marantz or Sansui (or comparable) receivers they'd want to sell/part with/give away.
    My dad had a very nice Sansui receiver from the 70's (I think he paid over $700 in the 70s). Very clean sound, and lots of power. When I was younger and trying to learn about amplifiers, I read about bridging to get more power. Being fairly ignorant at the time, I took the two + outputs and tied them together, and the two - outputs and tied them together. My dad wasn't too happy that I let the smoke out of one of his most prized possessions lol.

    He was supportive of my curiosity though, and my interest in audio eventually lead me to becoming an EE.

  139. #139
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    It is very important to me. I've gone from surround to 2.1 recently. Best move ever, for me and my set up. I'm running 2Ch- B&W 703, SVS PB10 NSD, Marantz NR1607(pre), Parasound 1500a, Pro-Ject Debut Carbon (Yellow) with Acrylic platter, Pro-Ject phono pre, MIT AVT 2 speaker cables, MIT AVT 2 ICs, XLO Jumpers, Tributaries Optical, Signal Cable Magic Power Cables x3, Samsung 55JS7000, Harmony 1100, Sony BDP-S6200, Rotel RDV 1045 (as Transport), Cambridge Audio DAC Magic100, Monster 3600MKII and Android MXQ Amlogic S805 Media player. - Pool /Gazebo Yamaha RX-A1010, Rotel 1075, Polk Patio 25x4, MIT AVT3 ICs.

    At work I run FLAC through my phone into a Fiio Kunlun into my Grado SR125e.
    So yes, it is important to me.

  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by willowbeast View Post
    I've gone from surround to 2.1 recently. Best move ever, for me and my set up.
    In what way?

  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by willowbeast View Post
    It is very important to me. I've gone from surround to 2.1 recently. Best move ever, for me and my set up. I'm running 2Ch- B&W 703, SVS PB10 NSD, Marantz NR1607(pre), Parasound 1500a, Pro-Ject Debut Carbon (Yellow) with Acrylic platter, Pro-Ject phono pre, MIT AVT 2 speaker cables, MIT AVT 2 ICs, XLO Jumpers, Tributaries Optical, Signal Cable Magic Power Cables x3, Samsung 55JS7000, Harmony 1100, Sony BDP-S6200, Rotel RDV 1045 (as Transport), Cambridge Audio DAC Magic100, Monster 3600MKII and Android MXQ Amlogic S805 Media player. - Pool /Gazebo Yamaha RX-A1010, Rotel 1075, Polk Patio 25x4, MIT AVT3 ICs.

    At work I run FLAC through my phone into a Fiio Kunlun into my Grado SR125e.
    So yes, it is important to me.
    For a majority of music, I do 2.0 with just a DAC, preamp, and amp. Full range speakers with plenty of power is normally all that's needed.

    For music I want extra loud or if it's music that needs an emphasized low end, I'll do 2.1 and let my subs help with bass.

    For most movies, I'll do 3.1 (just haven't got around to wire up my surround speakers).

    Eventually I want to upgrade to a receiver that will let me do 5.2 since I have two subs and would like the ability to tune and each separately.

  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by coke View Post
    Eventually I want to upgrade to a receiver that will let me do 5.2 since I have two subs and would like the ability to tune and each separately.
    That's not necessarily an upgrade.

    The more channels you have the harder it gets to get each one right. The more speakers, the hard it is to integrate them properly. I remember years ago being in the house of a guy who had two subs. After a bit of fiddling I pointed out to him that the music was far tighter and more coherent with both of them switched off...

  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    In what way?
    Our new house was not conducive to surround. The back of the family room opens up to the kitchen and eat in kitchen. So I replaced my 5.1 with two fronts, got rid of the centre speaker to accommodate a turn table. All my surround gear went to the basement to power the pool and gazebo speakers. So for me, it was the best move, I couldn't set them up properly and I didn't want massive bookshelves hooked up high on the wall. Now that I have my system dialed in just perfectly I can still get some surround effects from my two fronts. It travels to about almost 180deg. from the fronts. So not only did I ditch a decent set of speakers for much better ones, it's also cleaner and visually/audibly much better.

  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    That's not necessarily an upgrade.

    The more channels you have the harder it gets to get each one right. The more speakers, the hard it is to integrate them properly. I remember years ago being in the house of a guy who had two subs. After a bit of fiddling I pointed out to him that the music was far tighter and more coherent with both of them switched off...
    He obviously did not have his subs set up properly in the room. SVS website has some good tips on placing two subs as do many a/v forums. Playing with placement and phase will have a big impact. I use my sub all the time music and movies. I like that it takes the load off my mains and provides a nice bottom end. You can't tell I have a sub in the room.

  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    That's not necessarily an upgrade.

    The more channels you have the harder it gets to get each one right. The more speakers, the hard it is to integrate them properly. I remember years ago being in the house of a guy who had two subs. After a bit of fiddling I pointed out to him that the music was far tighter and more coherent with both of them switched off...
    With subs specifically, it can be easier to get a flatter response with more of them placed in different locations of the room.

    Some processors and receivers now also have the ability to automatically and independently tune subs, which makes integrating multiple subs much easier than it used to be.

  146. #146
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    is this ok?

    do you think its important to have a good "stereo"?-img_20171006_065906.jpg
    Dont make me go all Jonathan Winters on this gas station.

  147. #147
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    Whoop! Whoop! I just re-foamed my first speaker! The foam is not quite centered perfectly, and I got some glue on the cone, but it sounds fine, and the voice coil seems centered.

  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by willowbeast View Post
    He obviously did not have his subs set up properly in the room.
    No, not at all, but the problems run deeper than that.

    If you think about how sound propagates from the source, to reproduce or mimic that at home ideally you want all of the sound coming from the same place. With subs and surround systems you have multiple potential problems.

    You have sound coming from different places, for example you can have the fundamentals and harmonics of the bass guitar coming from different places. They can arrive at your ear out of time with each other and the rest of the music. Also, because the sub and upper speaker are of totally different construction and are in different parts of the room they can and usually do have different sonic characters. Imagine two different people singing the same tune.

    The net result is that the tightest, most musically coherent systems usually just have a pair of stereo speakers. A system with subs can get close but they rarely do and they can never beat them.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer View Post
    Whoop! Whoop! I just re-foamed my first speaker!
    Well done! What you're supposed to do is cut out the dust-cap and shim the voice coil in place but you can centre the coil by hand, although it's pretty tricky ;0) Nice feeling of satisfaction saving a speaker like that eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by azimiut View Post
    is this ok?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The kitchen is ;0)

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    No, not at all, but the problems run deeper than that.

    If you think about how sound propagates from the source, to reproduce or mimic that at home ideally you want all of the sound coming from the same place. With subs and surround systems you have multiple potential problems.

    You have sound coming from different places, for example you can have the fundamentals and harmonics of the bass guitar coming from different places. They can arrive at your ear out of time with each other and the rest of the music. Also, because the sub and upper speaker are of totally different construction and are in different parts of the room they can and usually do have different sonic characters. Imagine two different people singing the same tune.

    The net result is that the tightest, most musically coherent systems usually just have a pair of stereo speakers. A system with subs can get close but they rarely do and they can never beat them.



    Well done! What you're supposed to do is cut out the dust-cap and shim the voice coil in place but you can centre the coil by hand, although it's pretty tricky ;0) Nice feeling of satisfaction saving a speaker like that eh?



    The kitchen is ;0)
    I used the Simply Speakers shimless method, and the coil centering is perfect.

  150. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer View Post
    I used the Simply Speakers shimless method, and the coil centering is perfect.
    Yeah, takes a while though eh? ;0) My son has a fifteen-inch driver he's putting a new surround on just now. I've had a play with it and, so far, I can't get it to centre. I don't know what the story is but I think it's going to be tricky.

  151. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by coke View Post
    I'm cursed with the ability to discern good stereos from bad. Just like mountain bikes, once you experience the benefits of high quality equipment, it's hard to go back to the cheap stuff.

    For 2 channel music, I don't use any sound processing, and try to tune the sound with room treatments (Gik). For movies, I'll let my receiver do its magic

    Main stereo:
    Salk HT2-TL Speakers
    Audio Van Alstine fetvalve preamp and amps
    Eastern electric DAC
    Marantz receiver for movies
    2 Powersound 15" subs for movies

    Bedroom:
    Salk Songtower RT speakers
    Audio Van Alstine preamp and amp

    Shop:
    Swans

    Wife's Bluetooth speaker:
    Audioengine B2

    Desktop:
    160GB Ipod (Old)
    Nuforce DAC / Amp
    Ortofone headphones

    Car - Previous system (currently just have upgraded coaxial speakers with lots of sound deadening)
    Mids - Image Dynamics
    Horns - Image Dynamics
    Subs - Image Dynamics
    Processor - Alpine
    Head unit - Alpine
    Amps - Alpine - Separate amps for horns, mids, and subs

    Yardwork / Mowing:
    Etymotic IEM

    Mountain Biking:
    Aftershokz Bluetooth (not the best sound quality, but these allow me to hear everything on the trail)

    Just an observation, I think your mains need to spaced apart some more. You'll get a much wider soundstage then toe them in too. Looks good btw.

  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by willowbeast View Post
    I think your mains need to spaced apart some more. You'll get a much wider soundstage then toe them in too.
    I've never been a fan of toeing in speakers. It depends on what you are trying to achieve and why.

    People often chase goals which have nothing to do with musicality and can actually hurt musicality. For example, most Hi-Fi systems are capable of providing pin-point 'imagery', the sense of very accurate positioning of the different elements within the mix. It's a cool effect and when you hear an improvement in imagery you immediately assume the system is better. But super-accurate imagery like that does not exist in the real world and the reason is doesn't is important.

    If someone hits a real cymbal the sound goes in all directions. If you are listening to it from say ten-feet away you will hear the direct sound from it and also the reflected sound that bounces off the walls and any other surface around it. It's this defuse nature that gives sound it's richness and makes music 'fill' a room.

    It also makes it impossible to pinpoint exactly where the source of the sound is as this information is blurred by reflected sound.

    A Hi-Fi can give pinpoint imagery by cutting down on reflected sound and using a driver configuration that is very directional. These types of system typically have a 'hot-seat' where they sound 'right' with the speakers pointing straight at your head. I hate them as the results, which are impressive from a 'hi-fi' perspective, sound nothing like real music. You are left with a thin, cardboard cut-out that you watch rather like a TV rather than having the music leap out and grab you.

    All Hi-Fi systems can be set up to favour certain elements of reproduction over others and toeing in speakers virtually always improves imagery at the expense of musicality. There are exceptions, for example when the speakers are too far apart and there is a big hole on the sound, but other than that, toeing in is usually bad.

  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by willowbeast View Post
    Just an observation, I think your mains need to spaced apart some more. You'll get a much wider soundstage then toe them in too. Looks good btw.
    Thanks, they have a custom burled walnut finish

    I haven't had a chance to fine tune the placement, but the spacing is a little deceiving. The TV is a 70" so the speakers are a little wider than they appear, and I also don't sit quite back as far as it looks in the picture.

    In previous setups, I did a lot of experimentation and was able to dial in speaker placement for the perfect sound. Now that I have 2 dogs that like to run and play in the living room, I have to use my subs as barricades lol

  154. #154
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    My separates have long been replaced by a Home Theater set up. My current Home Theater system doesn't see a lot of music. On occasion, I will play one of the handful of DVD-Audio encoded DVDs I have or maybe a DVD/Blu-Ray concert, (such as Led Zeppelin's Celebration Day). My Yamaha receiver does have an iPod dock that I will, on occasion, insert the ancient iPod which contains my entire music library of 10,000+ songs.

    My turntable and reel-too-reel have been relegated to the basement with my old (1996) Dolby ProLogic HT receiver, but sadly, I rarely sit and chill with vinyl or tape these days. MAN I MISS THAT! I've been a music junkie since I was a tyke, instilled in me by an audiophile Dad and much older brothers with great records. I don't consider myself an audiophile, just a junkie, because I couldn't live without it!

    All that said, it's important to me to have a quality home theater set up. My friends and my kids' friends love to come over and watch anything at our house. They love when the helicopter flies through the room and the explosions rattle the walls. It's not a dedicated theater, it's in our living room, so it's used daily for news, sports, TV and movies.

    I listen to music in the car every day. I thoroughly enjoy every second of it. I have a Jeep Wrangler with a crap stock stereo playing songs off my iPhone through a $12 Bluetooth receiver, and I don't believe there is anyone who enjoys listening to music more than I do, no matter what system they are listening on.
    AreBee

  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arebee View Post
    I rarely sit and chill with vinyl or tape these days. MAN I MISS THAT!
    Yeah, when I was young that was a thing. You are your mates would get a bunch of albums and just sit around taking turns to play what you liked.

    Nowadays music is just on in the background usually.

  156. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Yeah, when I was young that was a thing. You are your mates would get a bunch of albums and just sit around taking turns to play what you liked.

    Nowadays music is just on in the background usually.
    Without a doubt! And when a new album release was on the horizon, we'd decide in advance where we were going to listen to it first. It was and EVENT!
    AreBee

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    Every Friday or Saturday night we make a point of listening to music with a bottle of red. During winter is usually when the lps come out and I start buying more. Summer time we are usually outside by the pool with music playing but I'm certainly not going in every 20 mins to flip over a record.
    We even have listening time with the kids. Not kids music either, sometimes classical, some times rock or jazz. My son knew all the words to riders on the storm at the age of 4.
    In the car we say what do you want to listen to? They pick on the way to school and sing along.

    We don't just use it as background. If it's on its to listen to. Unless we are having a party or swimming.

  158. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by willowbeast View Post
    Summer time we are usually outside by the pool with music playing but I'm certainly not going in every 20 mins to flip over a record.
    Heck, right now I'm not listening to the REM cd that's in the player because the remote is too far away! It's about three-feet out of reach ;0)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Heck, right now I'm not listening to the REM cd that's in the player because the remote is too far away! It's about three-feet out of reach ;0)
    I hear you. Even cds are a pain compared to streaming music. Which most times comes at a loss of quality.

    Do you remember when we had to get up to change the channels on the TV..... What would today's kids do!? Probably not watch as much as they do....

  160. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by willowbeast View Post
    Do you remember when we had to get up to change the channels on the TV.....
    Ha ha, yeah I do actually! I remember the first TV we got that had remote control. The remote only had two buttons, one for channel up and one for channel down. Pretty funny as we only had three TV channels at that point ;0) The remote was not infrared, it was ultrasonic so if someone jangled keys or coins it would change the channel.

    I'd still fairly stone-age. My amplifier does not have a remote and I don't have any way of listening to digital files though the stereo. Vinyl and CD is all it plays. The CD player has full digital inputs too, I've just never gotten into this streamy malarkey.

    Literally just now received a mail from a friend saying he's created an account for me to access his music on-line. I have no idea what to do with that information ;0)

  161. #161
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    By the way, quick recommendation.

    Aubrey Logan - Impossible. It's her debut solo album and it's very good. I have it on vinyl and it's unusually well produced for a vinyl album these days. Mostly good songs and her usual stunning vocals.

  162. #162
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    I am having a bunch o' fun with MP3s right now! As I stated in another thread; I've got a car stereo with a USB port. I've ripped about 175 of my CDs to my PC hard drive and now I'm after more at the public library! I just add/delete the files on a USB thumb drive depending on what I think I might like for the day or week or whatever. It's not like it's hard or takes a long time to change it up on a whim. So much better than trying to load individual CDs into a player in your car.

    I'm able to listen to music I'd never buy and I'm finding some really good stuff from bands I never knew I would've liked!
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  163. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfield View Post
    I'm able to listen to music I'd never buy and I'm finding some really good stuff from bands I never knew I would've liked!
    Just a pity it all sounds like shite eh? ;0)

  164. #164
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    As I get older the less I care about sound quality, it sounds just fine to me. Or maybe I just don't know how good it could sound...

    Sometimes ignorance really is bliss!
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  165. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfield View Post
    Or maybe I just don't know how good it could sound...
    Or maybe modern hardware really has good DAC software built in these days, and you really can't tell the difference between your CDs and your digital files.
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  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by net wurker View Post
    Or maybe modern hardware really has good DAC software built in these days, and you really can't tell the difference between your CDs and your digital files.
    Most people can't tell the difference, but it's not because it's all good...

  167. #167
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    I can hear the difference when I get ahold of a "lo-res" digital file, like a you tube download.
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  168. #168
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    How about a record burned onto a CD, and then converted to MP3? Playing: 02 Track 2.mp3 - picosong
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  169. #169
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    Played with the right hardware, it still sounds 98% as good as right off the vinyl.

  170. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by net wurker View Post
    Played with the right hardware, it still sounds 98% as good as right off the vinyl.
    I think it's been further degraded thru picosong.
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  171. #171
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    Maybe the audio stream. What about the file, though?

  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by net wurker View Post
    Maybe the audio stream. What about the file, though?
    I guess the file sounds better. It is the same size as it is on the CD.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    When I went into Hi-Fi shops years ago female vocal or solo guitar were pretty near the top of the list of dem music choices because it's easy to get a Hi-fi to do them convincingly. Rock music is a different ball game! And compressed rock/pop on CD is nightmare ;0) When I bought my first CD player I took in a CD of Hanson 'Middle Of Nowhere' and said 'I want a CD player that can deal with stuff like this'. The guys in the shop were a bit snooty about it but it's about the kit playing your music, not you choosing music that shows off the kit.
    Back in the late 80's, we would go into stereo stores to demo speakers with a copy of Philip Glass's Koyaanisqatsi. It may have damaged some of their equipment. That was at a time I worked at Tower Records in Sacramento, and was able to listen to everything being released on vinyl, and also able to go to San Francisco and see all of my favorite acts live. It's possible you might have been listening to many of the same British acts as we all liked back then; The The, The Wedding Present, Joy Division, Cocteau Twins, Waterboys, Lloyd Cole, Echo and the Bunnymen, and bands like Nick Cave, The Church, Replacements, Stone roses, Aztec Camera, Au Pairs, Galaxie 500,My Bloody Valentine, Felt, Bauhaus, Talk Talk, Prefab Sprout, Section 25, Shriekback, Pop Will Eat Itself, Ride, Caberet Voltaire, Blue Aeroplanes, Psychedelic Furs, Toy Dolls, Morrisey, Pale Saints, XTC, Lush, The Fall, etc.

    I use to get 90 minute cassette tapes from TDK with dual chrome coating and use a DBX encoder to almost eliminate tape hiss. It was almost equal to CD quality. Just two days ago, I went and retrieved my entire cassette collection that was being stored under a bed at a second home. I love staring at the mix tapes with all those clever names I gave them.

    I still own a pair of JBL L-112 speakers I purchased circa 1980. Part of a home theater system at the second home, that includes a Dayton Audio 1000 watt 15" sub, Aperion center channel, Denon receiver, and polk surrounds. Here at our new home, we purchased an 80" Vizio that is awful to watch, with a new 9 channel Denon receiver with all those American bells and whistles, Elac towers, Elac surrounds, B.I.C. ceiling speakers, Aperion center, and a 15" 1000 watt sub.

    I also wanted to mention that I especially enjoyed the Mazzy star videos on page one of this thread. I've seen them several times, along with a Hope Sandoval solo show, and it made me move them to #1 on my top 200 bands of all time, just ahead of Sixteen Horsepower, Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds, and The Wedding Present.

  174. #174
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    It's possible you might have been listening to many of the same British acts as we all liked back then; The The, The Wedding Present, Joy Division, Cocteau Twins...
    Man, that's a trip! ;0) Was and still do listen to a lot of that stuff. If you like Joy Division get hold of the Bad Lieutenant Never album 'Cry Another Tear'. It's kinda like Joy Division but a bit more polished.

    Anyone who hasn't heard the bands listed here, you really should! ;0)

    Talking of vinyl, a few weeks ago I picked up a Rega RP1 turntable with Rega Bias2 cartridge from the local ads. It was faulty and cheap so I fixed it to sell on. Got it fixed yesterday and good grief, that turntable is better than it has any right to be. It looks like a cheapo version of a 'real' Rega turntable, with plastic in places there should be metal, but they've worked some kind of alchemy here. The deck is so bouncy, pacy and fun it's ridiculous with a decent tonal balance and pretty good detail too. Quite how they've done it I don't know but anyone looking to buy a cheap turntable to spin their old records on could do a lot worse.

    do you think its important to have a good "stereo"?-rega-rp1_1.jpg

  175. #175
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    I live with music like a monk who prays every moment, including the night when he gets up to say Ave Maria. It is no more or no less. Simply utter devotion. The utmost devotion.

    - Dimitri Mitropolous


    I'd love to have a turntable and a vinyl collection again. I chose to get rid of all that when I loaded up my Toyota at 25 and drove to the west coast to be closer to good live music. I found myself working at Tower Records a month later and attending concerts once or twice a week. Toy Dolls, Lords Of The New Church, Wall Of Voodoo, The Cramps, The Alarm, Bob Dylan, Pogues, Waterboys, Alien Sex Fiend, Everything But The Girl, Trip Shakespeare, Einstruzende Naubauten, Loop, Pop Will Eat Itself, Pixies, Jesus and Mary Chain, Skinny Puppy, Peter Murphy, Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds, Laibach, China Crisis, New Order, Lou Reed, Feelies, Wolfgang Press, The Proclaimers, The Church, Blue Aeroplanes, Beastie Boys, Janes Addiction, Zodiac Mindwarp, The Wedding Present, Slim Cessna's Auto Club, Sixteen Horsepower, Ministry, Whiskeytown, Stan Ridgway, Siouxsie and the Banshees,The Gun Club, Oingo Boingo, Violent Femmes, Replacements, Luna, The The, Big Audio Dynamite, Cowboy Junkies, Mazzy Star with Cocteau Twins, Cranberries, Gwar, Buffalo Tom, Wilco, Mercury Rev, Paul Weller, Chickasaw Mudd Puppies, Chris and Cosey, P.I.L., Spiritualized, Shriekback, Clan of Xymox, Shonen Knife, The Fall Japan, Primus, U2, Pretenders, Bodeans, Hothouse Flowers.

    That was before learning about the SxSW music festival in the late 90's. I attended for 13 straight years and saw over 600 bands. Many before they were officially discovered and signed; Saw the Frames with 9 others inside a Tower Record Store. Saw Mumford & sons with a crowd of 50 at a cantina. Saw Modest Mouse with Tenacious D and Pavement. Old 97's, The Gourds, Split Lip Rayfield, Elliott Brood, My Sad Captains, Blind Pilot, Beirut, Okkervil River, Mono, Cat Power, Yo La Tengo, Twilight Sad, Frightened Rabbit, Paolo Nutini, Slobberbone, Shearwater, Camera Obscura, Scotland Yard Gospel Choir, Ravonettes, Snow Patrol, Titus Andronicus, Mr. Airplane Man, Matt and Kim, Magnapop, Lilly Allen, The Killers, Halou, Drive-By Truckers, Coco Rosie, Baptist Generals.


  176. #176
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    You've seen a lot of good bands. And a lot of mediocre ones too ;0)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    You've seen a lot of good bands. And a lot of mediocre ones too ;0)
    I tried not to include some of the questionable shows I went to. BJ Thomas, who sang; Raindrops Keep Falling on My Head. Wayne Newton, who sang; Danke schoen. Rickie Nelson, who sang; Hello Mary Lou, Garden Party, and Poor Little Fool. I use to like going to see female Japanese punk rock bands. Gito Gito Hustler, and some other band that was a sort of Japanese Malcom McClaren invention. Glad that was short lived. Back in the 70's, I saw Emerson Lake and Palmer, Charlie Daniels Band opening for Lynyrd Skynyrd, Aerosmith, ELO, Heart, The Eagles, and just missed seeing Queen. But I also paid to see Melissa Manchester. Gallagher opened for her. If I hadn't met a coed at University of Nebraska, who took me to see Gene Loves Jezebel and English Beat, and her roommate loaning me her albums by alternative acts of the early 80's, I'd be lost in classic rock hell. So I had a chance to go see Adam Ant, Romantics, Rick Springfield, Loverboy, and unexplainably; Leo Sayer. So many bad shows, and good memories. I just recall paying to see Jerry Seinfeld at Lake Tahoe, but it required sitting through Kenny G, playing a clarinet for an hour. And I almost went to see Manhattan Transfer, a jazz a cappella group.

    Anybody who has listened to certain kinds of music, or read certain kinds of poetry, or heard certain kinds of performances on the concertina, will admit that even suicide has its brighter aspects. - Stephen Leacock

    Mr. Pig, I'd love to see a list of your all-time top 20 favorite bands or performers.

  178. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    I'd love to see a list of your all-time top 20 favorite bands or performers.
    I genuinely don't have one. The short answer is that I will listen to anything and try to find the magic in everything. Even when I was a kid I would listen to all of my mother's corny records, I would play anything I could get my hands on. Neil Sedaka, Neil Diamond, even Sydney Devine! I didn't care if it was uncool and I still don't. Ok, so Sydney Devine is pretty terrible but I still love Barbara Streisand, was playing 'Guilty' a few days ago.

    If I had to pick a genre I like the most I guess it would be indy. The Smiths, The Von Bondies, The Vaccines, Sleeper, that sort of stuff. I like the energy and tension, music that makes you feel alive, but I'll listen to anything. I'm every bit as happy listening to 'The Queen Is Dead', 'Trick Of The Tail', 'Back In Black' or Barbara Dickson's greatest hits. Just dependson what mood I'm in but whatever I'm playing, at that moment in time it's the greatest music in the world.

    And that for me is where a good stereo comes in. It should get to the soul of whatever you are playing, and let you hear how utterly crap rap music is ;0)

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    I recently replaced the vehicle I had been driving. I kept it around mostly because of the wonderful stereo I had put in it. I got very lucky with the newer vehicle. It has an upgraded factory stereo from Sony that seems to give me what I want. Previously, car stereos were designed so that they were unable to play thumb drives in shuffle mode. They would only recognize the first 254 songs, and never play the rest. My 2015 Ford is showing the I have 5482 songs on the thumb drive and it is successfully shuffling through them.

    I think my iPod Nano holds 16 gigs of music I listen to as I mountain bike or run. I also have two iPod classics I attach to my stereo receivers. Plus, because we have all lost music over the years, I have everything backed up several times on laptops and external heard drives and even on disc. I sent a new external hard drive to a friend in Austin, Texas, who said he had a big music collection, and asked him to copy it onto the hard drive. He sent me 54,000 songs! It was staggering. That was ten years ago and I still have not made it through all the music. For every 100 songs I listen to, I delete 99. He had every album ever recorded by Miles Davis. Must have been 40 albums worth of music. I dumped all of it. I don't listen to jazz or hip hop or reggae or blues or country. I had a friend who ran a club in California. He referred to reggae music as "third world dixieland". About the only classic rock I still listen to is Pink Floyd. Occasionally, my wife tries to point out I am listening to jazz, when I have to stop her and say no way, this is some experimental stuff by Talk Talk, or some other band I do not associate with jazz.

    I gave a quick listen to Bad Lieutenant. Left me feeling about the same as when I listened to Electronic. I'll stick with New Order and Joy Division. I'd really like to hear back from the person who posted all the Mazzy Star videos. I'm not as big a fan of electronic music as he seems to be, but I've moved Mazzy Star to #1 on my all-time list, so maybe he has some other gems he listens to.

    I'm sure you've watched 24 Hour Party People. I really enjoyed it. I love Manchester bands of that era. I still have Claire Obscure on my hard drive, along with Durutti Column. I must have owned music by most of the bands on Factory, 4AD, and Beggars Banquet. I liked the part in the movie where they attended a Sex Pistols show and said that almost everyone attending that show went on to form a band.

  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    That was ten years ago and I still have not made it through all the music.
    Years ago I counted my vinyl albums and worked out how long it would take to play them all. I realised that most of them were never going to get played again and ever since then I have regular clear-outs. I do the same with CDs. I still have a lot of music but I don't see the point in keeping everything. Sure, if the music is great and you know you'll want to hear it in high quality then keep the disk but a lot of stuff you'll either never want to play again or you'll be happy looking up on YouTube.

    I'm sure you've watched 24 Hour Party People.
    Yes. You should watch the Oasis documentary 'Supersonic' bv the way. I'm not a big Oasis fan, I think they're twats, but it's a good film. Interesting and very well done.

  181. #181
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    One of the best rockumentaries ever, IMO: https://youtu.be/P13Tp4Jr0t4
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  182. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grassington View Post
    That's interesting to hear the experiences of Harold and young Master Pig. Quite often people who complain about whines that no-one else can hear don't get believed, but it's very easy to prove or disprove by turning off the electrical appliances one by one until the noise disappears. It's an increasing problem these days due to the proliferation of switched mode power supplies (SMPS), which are nice and efficient but do produce ultrasonic noise due to magnetorestriction in the transformers and inductors that are being constantly hammered by a train of pulses. SMPSs don't normally run lower than 50 kHz, but under light loads they can skip pulses and make noise at lower frequencies.


    .......rather than tinnitus, ....... My ears are whining slightly at the moment 'cos I'm a bit tired, but the only superpower I have is the ability to tell whether it's been raining, courtesy of an old leg injury.
    Thank you for posting this. An interesting read. All my life I've been more or less able to "hear" electronics to varying degrees. Lights; florescent w/ ballasts to incandescent. Audio components, computer monitors.....

    Also been noticing ringing in my ears for a few years. Google reveals tinnitus to me a few months back. Not that bad, but not great either.

  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfield View Post
    One of the best rockumentaries ever..
    Not as good as 'This Is Spinal Tap' though? Before my time, and for some reason I can't find any of their albums on eBay, but that band epitomized everything that was great about seventies rock. Copied by so many but never equaled.

  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Not as good as 'This Is Spinal Tap' though? Before my time, and for some reason I can't find any of their albums on eBay, but that band epitomized everything that was great about seventies rock. Copied by so many but never equaled.
    I still haven't seen that one all the way thru, I'll have to seek it out one of these days.


    I was just listening to some Daft Punk MP3s on my $50 car stereo when it hit me:

    I'd rather listen to good music on a crappy stereo, than listen to crappy music on a good stereo!
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  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfield View Post
    I'd rather listen to good music on a crappy stereo, than listen to crappy music on a good stereo!
    A good stereo will redefine what you consider good music.

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    What a crazy day. Went on a ride at 8:45 and ended up walking my bike back to the parking lot at 2:05. Multiple flats, dried out Stans, valve stem came out, went through my figs bars, my energy bar, two Gu's, six potassium/sodium tablets, a 26 oz. bottle of Cytomax, and 110 oz. of water.

    But none of that bothered me. Why? Because I hit the trifecta midway through the ride. You know what I mean? You've got your earbuds on and are listening to what is already the cream of the crop of your music collection, and three songs, back to back to back, come on that are perfect together. The sum of the three results in pleasure that is unattainable from any one or two of the songs.

    Now, the question is, can I find videos of the three as evidence.

    It got started off with a rare version of Bon Iver performing "Flume"



    That was followed by The Wedding Present performing "Granadaland"


    The third song was "Titus Andronicus" by Titus Andronicus. If you are a fan of The Replacements, this will do it for you.

    Posting the second and third videos shortly...

  187. #187
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    Granadaland by The Wedding Present


  188. #188
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    Titus Andronicus by Titus Andronicus



  189. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    A good stereo will redefine what you consider good music.
    Or make crappy recorded music sound even worse.

  190. #190
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    Being a professional musician as my "9-5" I am definitely in the camp of good solid speakers being run by an old tube driven receiver for my stereo. I grew up in recording studios, and playing live, so my ears were/are always attuned to the highest quality sound I could get.

    I still use my dads Marantz receiver from the early 70's as my home base at home. This is powering a 70's era Sony turntable, an old Toshiba cassette player from the 90's; an RCA reel-to-reel tape deck from the 60's (and still have most of my dads reel to reel tapes from then to...lots of jazz, Motown, and some old rock stuff to like CCR, Mama's and Papa's etc...)

    I mostly have CD's (about 3-4,000 of them) and some vinyl. I do have all of my CD's on my 3rd gen iPod as well, but just recently the headphone jack is only sending out the left channel

    I have Bose speakers from the 90's (forget the model off the top of my head) hooked up to that set up, and an old Sony stereo graphic eq. The overall sound is so clean and warm. I would really like to rehab the old Marantz speakers form the 70's that my dad also has, but that is a project for down the road.

    My car has a decent sound system, but nothing like my cars in the early 90's...had the good old Kicker 2-12 sub box, power amp set ups' (don't remember the models...Pyle maybe?)...I actually won a local car stereo competition with my van set up. But that stuff gets stolen too much...it makes you a target. I got tired of replacing a system every year.

    Right now I have the Sennheiser HD280 pro's as my go to headphones for everything...studio, casual etc. I don't ride with them obviously. But I also can't stand ear buds, or anything that is a "small all purpose" speaker. I also can't stand all of the "Beatz" type headphones with altered or boosted frequencies. I like my phones to be "flat"...

    speaking of listening to music while riding, has anyone tried those "headphones" that resonate through your cheek bones? i forget what they are called....I would consider those b/c they don't cover your ears, but what would they sound like?
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  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfield View Post
    I still haven't seen that one all the way thru, I'll have to seek it out one of these days.


    I was just listening to some Daft Punk MP3s on my $50 car stereo when it hit me:

    I'd rather listen to good music on a crappy stereo, than listen to crappy music on a good stereo!
    A. DEFINITELY take the time to see all of Spinal Tap....it is my all time fav movie!!! I think it is still the best of that whole groups "mockumentaries". And so much of it is true if you have been in a band from that era or style. I have had many "Spinal Tap" moments with my own bands....

    B. I also agree that I would rather hear great music out of crappy speakers than average music out of a great system
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  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by willowbeast View Post
    Or make crappy recorded music sound even worse.
    It shouldn't. A good stereo should make poor recordings sound better. A lot of expensive systems don't, but they should.

    Quote Originally Posted by sXeXBMXer View Post
    speaking of listening to music while riding, has anyone tried those "headphones" that resonate through your cheek bones?
    Never heard of those? Off to google...

  193. #193
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    I bought a pair of swim-p3's, years ago. They allow you to listen to mp3's while you swim.

    Finis releases Neptune bone conduction waterproof audio player
    https://newatlas.com/finis-neptune-b...-player/27606/

    I would not recommend them for use while riding. It is not the same listening experience. Not half as good as cheap ear buds.

  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    It shouldn't. A good stereo should make poor recordings sound better. A lot of expensive systems don't, but they should.



    Never heard of those? Off to google...
    just remembered they are called Aftershockz...
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  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by sXeXBMXer View Post
    just remembered they are called Aftershockz...
    A good idea but not cheap for something that sounds a bit crap?

    Earbuds do a good job of blocking your hearing but the small open phones that used to be popular let you hear just fine, as long as you don't crank them up too loud.

  196. #196
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    yeah

    my home setup = Onkyo 7.1, Polk Speakers, 12" RE HC

    my car setup = Alpine 9887, 6.5" Oz Elites, 12" RE SE, Cadence amps

  197. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    A good idea but not cheap for something that sounds a bit crap?

    Earbuds do a good job of blocking your hearing but the small open phones that used to be popular let you hear just fine, as long as you don't crank them up too loud.
    I can't do earbuds though. they mess with my equilibrium and make me throw up. I honestly never ride with music on, other than what goes through my head. I wreck so much that I fear damaging any technology that I would use for that. I don't use my phone for my music, so it stays stowed in the middle of my hydro pack to protect it from falls
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  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by sXeXBMXer View Post
    I can't do earbuds though. they mess with my equilibrium and make me throw up. I honestly never ride with music on, other than what goes through my head. I wreck so much that I fear damaging any technology that I would use for that.
    I have issues with equilibrium from time to time. Not sure why. Figure it is diet related of hydration related. If you love music like I do, you will find a system that works for you while riding, regardless of crash frequency. I keep my Nano tucked into my hydration pack and loop my earbuds over my headband and let them dangle down next to each ear. Sometimes both are inserted for great sounding music. Sometimes I pull one out to be able to hear other riders. Sometimes I pull both out, so they are near my ear and I can sort of hear the music, but I need to be able to carry on a conversation.

    It's my belief that music makes riding more enjoyable and it allows me to ride further and faster.

    If you throw up, is it because of music playing in your ears? Would you throw up if the music was turned off and you just had ear buds in your ears? Have you discussed this problem with a physician?

  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    I have issues with equilibrium from time to time. Not sure why. Figure it is diet related of hydration related. If you love music like I do, you will find a system that works for you while riding, regardless of crash frequency. I keep my Nano tucked into my hydration pack and loop my earbuds over my headband and let them dangle down next to each ear. Sometimes both are inserted for great sounding music. Sometimes I pull one out to be able to hear other riders. Sometimes I pull both out, so they are near my ear and I can sort of hear the music, but I need to be able to carry on a conversation.

    It's my belief that music makes riding more enjoyable and it allows me to ride further and faster.

    If you throw up, is it because of music playing in your ears? Would you throw up if the music was turned off and you just had ear buds in your ears? Have you discussed this problem with a physician?
    I do have an old pair of cheap earphones from a discman from back in the 90's that I use when mowing the lawn. I use these when I ride paved trails or in the hood. They rest light enough for me to hear the music and my surroundings. I could try those...I just figured they would bounce off of my head a lot while riding trails.

    I am like you though, listening to music can make the miles melt away...and being a drummer, I set my cadence to the beat of the songs when I am on pavement. I can ride for hours with music on...

    The vomiting thing is from the buds actually being in my ear canal...not with the music itself. I also can't wear ear plugs b/c of that, so in band practice, I wear pistol range headphones. At shows, I just deal with the noise
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  200. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    If you love music like I do, you will find a system that works for you while riding.
    Just because you don't listen to music while riding doesn't mean that you don't love music? I love pizza, but I don't eat it while riding!

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