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  1. #1
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    New question here. the consequences of cheating

    Do you agree that an individual or entire team who knowingly and purposely cheated should be stripped of any awards attributed to cheating?

    I am speaking directly at the current MLB Astros scandal. I whole heartedly believe the Astros should be stripped of the World Championship and the Boston Red Sox should be awarded teh 2017 Championship.

    This is my opinion of course. But why punish the team with a fine? Or loss of draft choice? I believe its best to recognize the participants who played fair (and haven't been caught cheating).

    I believe Lance Armstrong was stripped of his TDF titles. There's always an olympian or two who are being awarded medals due to another medalist failing a drug test. In fact, I believe Russia is in the depths of an Olympic doping scandal.

    I'd like to believe there are clean (drug free), rule abiding athletes out there. However, cheating is in every sport--so maybe its just a norm and "don't get caught" is the cheaters motto.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
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    Yes, but sign cheating dates back to 1876. Many games and many championships have been won that way and have been caught. Never a consequence, I don’t see it changing now even though it should.
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  3. #3
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    Can someone explain in layman's terms what the issue is?
    Is this one team watching the catcher's signals to the pitcher and then relaying it to the batter on the plate?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    Can someone explain in layman's terms what the issue is?
    Is this one team watching the catcher's signals to the pitcher and then relaying it to the batter on the plate?
    In layman's terms: "yes".

  5. #5
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    Call me naive but maybe the catcher shouldn't signal anything then?
    In cricket the bowler doesn't tell the wicketkeeper where he's going to bowl it. To be fair, the wicket keeper is often standing another twenty metres back (mostly).

    If the batter needs to react to where the ball is, then surely the catcher can do the same. They might have to squeeze back a bit, but hey, that's better than telegraphing to the world where the pitch is going to be.
    Couldn't the batter watch the too? And have someone else warn him when the pitcher winds up, or does that happen too quickly?

  6. #6
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    ^^ good suggestions, however, they still cheated.

    I agree with taking their championship away, don't give it to anyone, so maybe a lesson is taught.

    The Astros won't be very welcomed at Dodger's stadium.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcd46 View Post
    ^^ good suggestions, however, they still cheated.

    I agree with taking their championship away, don't give it to anyone, so maybe a lesson is taught.

    The Astros won't be very welcomed at Dodger's stadium.
    In layman’s terms: “yep”.
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  8. #8
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    I stopped watching professions stick and ball sports years ago....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    Can someone explain in layman's terms what the issue is?
    Is this one team watching the catcher's signals to the pitcher and then relaying it to the batter on the plate?
    Yes but with a twist. Stealing signs in and of itself isn't illegal. The Astros, however, used an outfield video camera to capture the signs and relay them to a monitor in the dugout. Team members in the dugout then banged a trash can (or drum, slowly?) in code to alert the batter what type of pitch was coming. Using technology (or "foreign objects," if you will) to steal signs is a no-no.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcd46 View Post
    The Astros won't be very welcomed at Dodger's stadium.
    And possibly the Red Sox won't be, either. They're implicated in a separate, but similar sign-stealing scandal from 2018.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    I stopped watching professions stick and ball sports years ago....
    Yes, but it’s on every news channel and news outlet on the Net. How can one avoid it?
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    Yes but with a twist. Stealing signs in and of itself isn't illegal. The Astros, however, used an outfield video camera to capture the signs and relay them to a monitor in the dugout. Team members in the dugout then banged a trash can (or drum, slowly?) in code to alert the batter what type of pitch was coming. Using technology (or "foreign objects," if you will) to steal signs is a no-no.
    I don't condone cheating.

    But, this is kind of funny, in the spirit of baseball, which itself is a strange and quirky game. And it's nice to hear a news story that isn't some huge and scary threat to the world as we know it.

    I'm reminded of all the pitchers who have been accused of "doctoring" the ball with hidden fingernail files and Vaseline in their caps and whatever else they've tried to conceal at the mound.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bingemtbr View Post
    Do you agree that an individual or entire team who knowingly and purposely cheated should be stripped of any awards attributed to cheating?
    So are you suggesting every single Superbowl win the Patriots got int he last 2 decades be removed?

    Honestly every team cheats to some degree.... so maybe just get rid of championships and scoring and just play for fun?
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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    Yes but with a twist. Stealing signs in and of itself isn't illegal. The Astros, however, used an outfield video camera to capture the signs and relay them to a monitor in the dugout. Team members in the dugout then banged a trash can (or drum, slowly?) in code to alert the batter what type of pitch was coming. Using technology (or "foreign objects," if you will) to steal signs is a no-no.
    Correct, I believe using electronic means to steal/communicate signs is illegal. Base runners have tried to steal signs as long as there have been signs.

  15. #15
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    The QB of an NFL team can hear what the management is calling from within his helmet, right?

    Perhaps the MLB should do the same. Speakers in the ear of the pitcher and catcher. Management makes the pitch call. The pitcher either nods yes or nods no while the catcher is watching his reaction. The catcher now knows what is coming.

    Of course, that only works until the signal is hacked...

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    So are you suggesting every single Superbowl win the Patriots got int he last 2 decades be removed?

    Honestly every team cheats to some degree.... so maybe just get rid of championships and scoring and just play for fun?
    Yes. Deflate-gate should have caused the Patriots their title and tarnished Brady's legacy and current reputation.

    Edited to add: Deflate-gate is the only infraction I am aware of. Their title should only be removed for that year.

  17. #17
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    Cheating to achieve is a part of human nature. Cheating is now obiquitous in all professional sports. In those worlds, greed trumps integrity every time.

    What makes me boil is when the cheaters get caught red handed and go all Lance and won't 'fess up.
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  18. #18
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    There is something to admire about cheating though. It's a means of having a better understanding of something, even if it is the wrong way to go about it.

    Cheaters get an A for effort and an F for succeeding.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawgzilla View Post
    There is something to admire about cheating though. It's a means of having a better understanding of something, even if it is the wrong way to go about it.

    Cheaters get an A for effort and an F for succeeding.
    I'll have to disagree about the understanding part. Most of the cheaters I know are either too egotistical to believe the rules apply to them or are too sociopathic to care about fallout as long as they got what they wanted in that moment.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    Base runners have tried to steal signs as long as there have been signs.
    Yep, and it's one of the "unwritten rules" that it's *not* illegal. Just needs to be "human powered" only. It's incumbent on each team to prevent opponents from gaining advantages by stealing signs.

    One clever idea I saw brought up in another forum was a simple wireless system. The catcher has a simple keypad of sorts under his padding, which he uses instead of finger signs to signal the pitcher what pitch type & location to throw. The pitcher would have a receiver with either audio tones or tactile response (buzzing). Of course it would have to be protected from intercept or jamming.

    Bonus points for using a shock device in the pitcher's cup for when he misses location.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    Most of the cheaters I know are either too egotistical to believe the rules apply to them or are too sociopathic to care about fallout as long as they got what they wanted in that moment.
    Hey, I just realized, at this very moment, that I am a cheater! WOW, AWESOME!!!

  22. #22
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    Cheaters are assholes, the hell with them.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Kuhl View Post
    Cheaters are assholes, the hell with them.

  24. #24
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    Damnit I figured this was going to be a thread with a wife that caught the cheating husband with his girlfriend....

    So let down....

    Sports. .... Whoop de Doo
    Damn Patriots cheat all the time nobody seems to care .

  25. #25
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    OK Ok, I once had a really difficult Ancient Greek exam at school, and instead of handing in the paper, it went in the trash. The examiners of course couldn't find my paper, I said I had handed it in, and they gave me a passing grade... heheh!
    I'm fine with going back and reliving my life without that passing grade... if that's what it takes to atone.


    On second thoughts...
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  26. #26
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    As for sports, in the scrum in Rugby all kinds of sh*t went down which ain't in any rule book... it was dog eat dog in there, sometimes literally.

    What is "Baseball"?
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawgzilla View Post
    There is something to admire about cheating though. It's a means of having a better understanding of something, even if it is the wrong way to go about it.

    Cheaters get an A for effort and an F for succeeding.
    I don't agree that there is anything to admire about cheating. Except maybe Gaylord Perry, he was very creative. Of course, his infamous poof ball wasn't illegal initially.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  28. #28
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    Cheaters never win, right? How bout them Cowboys?!
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  29. #29
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    Is it not a dog eat dog world that we live in?

  30. #30
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    Our society is rife with cheaters. From our elected officials to the super rich to our sports heroes, the people in power have set the standard for integrity in our dying society. The concept of moral turpitude has been marginalized in favor of selfishness and greed. Feelings of shame and dishonor have been replaced by celebrations of theft and deceit.

    I can't wait until our society devolves into full fledged anarchy; after the dust settles, those of us left standing can begin to re-create a decent, civilized culture.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    Can someone explain in layman's terms what the issue is?
    Is this one team watching the catcher's signals to the pitcher and then relaying it to the batter on the plate?

    Yes, but with a camera. You are allowed to do it with your eyes but not with a camera or any other technology.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bingemtbr View Post
    Yes. Deflate-gate should have caused the Patriots their title and tarnished Brady's legacy and current reputation.

    Edited to add: Deflate-gate is the only infraction I am aware of. Their title should only be removed for that year.

    Actually, I would argue that everyone who thinks the deflate gate is real should be fired from their job and forced to go back to basic chemistry class. That to me is the greatest example of how crazy we have become. When simple science is too hard for people to understand, we are all screwed.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  33. #33
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    the consequences of cheating

    The Astros should have had their WS title stripped and Altuve lose his MVP. Ask any of the 30 MLB team owners if they would trade a WS title for 5 million dollars, 4 draft picks, their GM and Manager. Anyone of them would make that trade. The punishment wasn’t harsh enough IMO.

    Pete Rose is arguably the greatest hitter of all time. Yet all he did was bet on a game, did nothing to effect the outcome of the game, and has a lifelong ban from Baseball and the Hall of Fame. The Astros and Red Sox both effected the out come of games, a season, and other players futures/contracts with this scandal.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    Call me naive but maybe the catcher shouldn't signal anything then?
    In cricket the bowler doesn't tell the wicketkeeper where he's going to bowl it. To be fair, the wicket keeper is often standing another twenty metres back (mostly).

    If the batter needs to react to where the ball is, then surely the catcher can do the same. They might have to squeeze back a bit, but hey, that's better than telegraphing to the world where the pitch is going to be.
    Couldn't the batter watch the too? And have someone else warn him when the pitcher winds up, or does that happen too quickly?
    The only time a base runner can steal/see signs is when they’re on second base. So when a runner is on second the catcher gives multiple signs. The pitcher and catcher already agreed on which sign is the real one.

    The Astros used a camera to watch the signs at all times, decode the sign sequence, then relay it. Much faster and more accurate than a runner can.

    There are times where a catcher will walk out to the mound and they will discuss what pitch to throw and not use signs. But that only happens in certain situations.

    Hitters are so good at the professional level that they can hit almost at will. The one advantage pitchers have is the element of deception. The ball moves so fast that’s as long as the pitcher makes the same movement every pitch, it’s near impossible to know what pitch is coming and where it will be.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Actually, I would argue that everyone who thinks the deflate gate is real should be fired from their job and forced to go back to basic chemistry class. That to me is the greatest example of how crazy we have become. When simple science is too hard for people to understand, we are all screwed.
    Yeah. The Patriots admitted they instructed the balls to have air let out of them. Not sure how chemistry plays a role in a person sticking a needle or other device into a football to release air.

    https://empirenews.net/tom-brady-adm...pionship-game/

    There are several sources confirming this. Just google it.

    And for the record, the use of under inflated balls is not part of any game sanctioned by the NFL. You can argue that under inflated balls are easier to hold/catch. However, that is not regulation.

  36. #36
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    Meh, I see this situation as the same as cheating in motorsports. Someone found a loophole and exploited it, time to close the loophole. So they videod the signs and decoded it, but they still had to relay it to the batter and the batter had to actually hit the ball so it's not like it was a 100% advantage. And it's not like Astros swept the Dodgers either.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Actually, I would argue that everyone who thinks the deflate gate is real should be fired from their job and forced to go back to basic chemistry class. That to me is the greatest example of how crazy we have become. When simple science is too hard for people to understand, we are all screwed.
    +1 Amen.
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    Our society is rife with cheaters. From our elected officials to the super rich to our sports heroes, the people in power have set the standard for integrity in our dying society. The concept of moral turpitude has been marginalized in favor of selfishness and greed. Feelings of shame and dishonor have been replaced by celebrations of theft and deceit.

    I can't wait until our society devolves into full fledged anarchy; after the dust settles, those of us left standing can begin to re-create a decent, civilized culture.
    Only thing wrong with your Utopian Dream is that the people left standing would almost certainly be incapable of creating anything, let alone a decent, civilized culture! I mean, this is real life, not Hollywood...
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by bingemtbr View Post
    Yeah. The Patriots admitted they instructed the balls to have air let out of them. Not sure how chemistry plays a role in a person sticking a needle or other device into a football to release air.

    https://empirenews.net/tom-brady-adm...pionship-game/

    There are several sources confirming this. Just google it.

    And for the record, the use of under inflated balls is not part of any game sanctioned by the NFL. You can argue that under inflated balls are easier to hold/catch. However, that is not regulation.
    So I will go further, anybody that uses the phrase: "Just google it." in a defense of anything important should be fired and asked to go back to school.

    Also, that site is not real and the Patriots did not ask anyone to reduce pressure below 12.5 PSI. And you should never believe something written by BOB THE EMPIRE NEWS POTATO.

    In a world where everyone is stupid, not being so is cheating.
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  40. #40
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    When I think of the lengths teams will go to win, I always picture coaches talking on the sidelines with clipboards in front of their mouth so some lip reader isn't translating for the other team.

  41. #41
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    This kinda reminds me of the video Mark Rober did recently where he developed an app that can "learn" the opposing teams signs and decipher them. People at the baseball field didn't care for that.
    . . . . . . . .

  42. #42
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    Title misleading. I was expecting to read the thread starter’s confession about cheating on his spouse. Talk about a letdown of a thread!!!
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    BOB THE EMPIRE NEWS POTATO.
    great name for a band...

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    As for sports, in the scrum in Rugby all kinds of sh*t went down which ain't in any rule book... it was dog eat dog in there, sometimes literally.

    What is "Baseball"?
    I remember hearing about one rugby player who was famous for digital insertions, but that may be commonplace in rugby for all i know.

    baseball is great if you want to take a nap. i'd rather watch golf. alot more excitement.
    sign stealing is nothing new. get over it.

    latest news is they are trying out robo-umpires to call strikes and balls. the call will be determined by the robo-ump and transmitted to the human umpire behind the plate and he will make the call. i wonder if the umpire will always call what robo-ump says. hmmm.
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    Meh, I see this situation as the same as cheating in motorsports. Someone found a loophole and exploited it, time to close the loophole. So they videod the signs and decoded it, but they still had to relay it to the batter and the batter had to actually hit the ball so it's not like it was a 100% advantage. And it's not like Astros swept the Dodgers either.
    Alex Bregman: Road – .154 BA, .508 OPS; Home – .273 BA, .857 OPS.
    Carlos Correa: Road – .211 BA, .626 OPS; Home – .371 BA, 1.164 OPS.
    Jose Altuve: Road – .143 BA, .497 OPS; Home – .472 BA, 1.541 OPS.
    Brian McCann: Road – .037 BA, .198 OPS; Home – .300 BA, .849 OPS.
    Evan Gattis: Road – .200 BA, .533 OPS; Home – .300 BA, 1.014 OPS.
    While it wasn't a 100% improvement, that a hell of a jump in Avg.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by bingemtbr View Post
    Yes. Deflate-gate should have caused the Patriots their title and tarnished Brady's legacy and current reputation.

    Edited to add: Deflate-gate is the only infraction I am aware of. Their title should only be removed for that year.
    How about when they secretly recorded the practice sessions of the Eagles before they played the eagles.... That was cheating and they got to keep their title that year as well.

    IMO Brady and Belechicks reputation will always be tarnished, there are big giant Asterisks next to all of their wins.

    The buddy buddy relationship between the commissioner and Robert Kraft is disgusting.
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  47. #47
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    I've heard Cat2 mountain bikers discussing their doping techniques. Cat2! Cheaters are on the same level as trail sanitizers. Pure scum of the Earth.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    How about when they secretly recorded the practice sessions of the Eagles before they played the eagles.... That was cheating and they got to keep their title that year as well.

    IMO Brady and Belechicks reputation will always be tarnished, there are big giant Asterisks next to all of their wins.

    The buddy buddy relationship between the commissioner and Robert Kraft is disgusting.
    Where is the evidence that the Patriots filmed any walk through of the Eagles or the Rams or the Panthers, etc?
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