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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropper View Post
    Where as grazing animals like cows and sheep that move around the land replenish the grass lands.

    Sheep and cattle are like hoofed locusts, unlike deer and bison they generally don't move on until they've consumed everything. They most certainly do not replenish the grasslands, pretty much the opposite.
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  2. #302
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    riding on ketogenic diet - who's doing it?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Sheep and cattle are like hoofed locusts, unlike deer and bison they generally don't move on until they've consumed everything. They most certainly do not replenish the grasslands, pretty much the opposite.
    Sorry should have clarified. In the documentary they move them. They mention that. I would prefer bison or deer or anything thats native to the landscape. but i think if you pen up cattle and dont give them enough grazing area yeah they are gonna just keep eating every last bit like you said. I see plenty of open pastured cattle and the soil is in tact no erosion issues.

    And this is worth a read. The rancher mentions having to move them because in nature the predators often cause the migration. Very interesting.

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/p...ving-our-soil/

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropper View Post
    Its really interesting the whole grain industry and how we grow corn to feed to cows to eat. The corn fields being grown over and over destroy the land think dust bowl.

    Where as grazing animals like cows and sheep that move around the land replenish the grass lands. So convert the corn and grain fields back to their natural state and put pastured animals on there and then eat them. A previous vegan on the program just really summed it all up well.

    This is hard to ignore.
    So I'm all for grass-fed and agree growing food to feed food doesn't make a lot of sense. The challenge is the caloric density per acre is much lower with grasslands, yet the net carbon recapture is no better than a corn field.

    What does that mean? A lot less grazing cattle per acre compared to feed + feedlot operations. And net-net carbon output is not much better (compared to reforestation). Meat consumption will need to go WAY WAY down to have this a meaningful solution.

  4. #304
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    riding on ketogenic diet - who's doing it?

    Quote Originally Posted by smoothmoose View Post
    So I'm all for grass-fed and agree growing food to feed food doesn't make a lot of sense. The challenge is the caloric density per acre is much lower with grasslands, yet the net carbon recapture is no better than a corn field.

    What does that mean? A lot less grazing cattle per acre compared to feed + feedlot operations. And net-net carbon output is not much better (compared to reforestation). Meat consumption will need to go WAY WAY down to have this a meaningful solution.
    Yeah the amount of meat is definitely a variable that is needed in the equation. And there are all sorts of “meat” beyond ruminant animals for sure.

    So with that said is the current consumption rate far beyond what we “need” for a keto diet?

    Are there more humans now on the planet than we can support on this type of diet? Is population control something we need to start taking more seriously?

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by smoothmoose View Post
    So I'm all for grass-fed and agree growing food to feed food doesn't make a lot of sense. The challenge is the caloric density per acre is much lower with grasslands, yet the net carbon recapture is no better than a corn field.

    What does that mean? A lot less grazing cattle per acre compared to feed + feedlot operations. And net-net carbon output is not much better (compared to reforestation). Meat consumption will need to go WAY WAY down to have this a meaningful solution.
    Also the meat is actually good for you when grass feed. And corn fed cattle are the #2 cause of green house gases so it's bad for the environment.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropper View Post
    Yeah the amount of meat is definitely a variable that is needed in the equation. And there are all sorts of “meat” beyond ruminant animals for sure.

    So with that said is the current consumption rate far beyond what we “need” for a keto diet?

    Are there more humans now on the planet than we can support on this type of diet? Is population control something we need to start taking more seriously?
    Personally - I'm not tied to any diet - no horse in this race. I've experimented with many from classic bodybuilder (high protein, low fat), vegetarian, paleo, and now with higher fat (but not full on keto).

    Specifically on grassfed meat, I've done the back of envelope calculation before - I don't remember what it was exactly, but we are already on the edge on what the earth can support if you assume that everyone is consuming in range 1-2lbs of meat per week.

    I don't think the solution is population control just so us first world citizens can have our steak and eat it too.

    Luckily today a good part of the world's population is either vegetarian or highly on planted based diet (with meat on occasion). But as developing countries with large populations get more affluent (think the 2.75Billion people in India and China) we are already starting to see titanic shifts in the amount of meat consumption and impact on global sustainability of meat production. Just look at how much of the Amazon has been cut down for corn, soy, and grasslands. We can't just say it's all good if we go grassfed organic.

    Keto - as prescribed is hard to justify as a global sustainable diet - given the amount of meat and avoidance of protein rich plants because of their associated carb load as well. Not that it will ever happen, most of the world loves carbs too much.

    Nor I am I saying vegetarian/vegan is end all and be all either...especially when applied with high grain consumption. That said - if we are really trying to look at data and read the writing on the wall (leaves). The most likely best solution to health, sustainability (and maybe even performance) is probably a largely plant based diet (with a little bit a meat).

  7. #307
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    Yeah thats the thing with the keto its low carb high fat not highprotein. So the fats come from plant based sources not strictly meat is what i have been reading.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropper View Post
    Are there more humans now on the planet than we can support on this type of diet? Is population control something we need to start taking more seriously?

    If by "this type of diet" you mean lots of beef then yes and yes.

    We'll all be eating bugs eventually.
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  9. #309
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    We'll be eating meat created in a laboratory here soon.

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  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropper View Post
    Yeah thats the thing with the keto its low carb high fat not highprotein. So the fats come from plant based sources not strictly meat is what i have been reading.
    Let's look at that statement objectively. The ranges vary but the typical keto macros is along the lines of 70% fat, 25% protein, 5% carbs. Now look at macros for good sources of plant based proteins - I'll ignore fat for now compare the protein to carb ratio (p:c). The suggested p:c is 5:1. So for the following protein rich plants...

    Nuts ~ 1:1
    Legumes ~ 1:2
    Seeds ~ 2:1 (pretty high variance)

    There are some outliers like hemp seeds that have high p:c ratio, but in general if you are "strict" keto, it's almost impossible to hit the target 5:1 p:c ratio using plants alone - you pretty much need to use plants sparingly. And if you include a good amount of healthy leafy greens with typical 1:2 ratio and you also blow through all you carb ration.

    To put in in perspective, based on 2000 kcal daily diet that's 500 kcals for protein. That's about 600g (1.3 lbs) of meat or 4 cups of almonds to hit your 500 kcals (125g) of protein. Of course with almonds you also exceed your carb target which is a no-no in keto.

    So for many people trying to hold strict keto, they resort to meat - especially the ribeyes and bacon which taste so good and help hit your fat targets as well too!

    As I said before - I don't have side on this. I think fueling with fat is great and I enjoy a ribeye and bacon like any other.

    It's just as prescribed specifically the 5:1 protein to carb ratio is unrealistic based on a plant based diet and in turn if adopted widely will lead to unsustainable be meat consumption and questionable long term health. Even if fast weight loss is the initial result (which it is for many people I've talked to) - not denying that at all.

    If Keto means to you to get a good mix of plants and some meat, without worrying too much about what the carb impact is of the plants - I personally think that's the way to go.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMac4108 View Post
    We'll be eating meat created in a laboratory here soon.

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    I have mixed feeling about that. I'm tried Beyond Meat products and they taste about 70% there as a reasonable facsimile.

    The issue is processing - are we over-processing perfectly fine and healthy plants just to make to look, smell, and taste like meat? Are there downsides to health and carbon footprint? Right now, I think most people agree traditional food processing has led to the current obesity epidemic.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by smoothmoose View Post
    I have mixed feeling about that. I'm tried Beyond Meat products and they taste about 70% there as a reasonable facsimile.

    The issue is processing - are we over-processing perfectly fine and healthy plants just to make to look, smell, and taste like meat? Are there downsides to health and carbon footprint? Right now, I think most people agree traditional food processing has led to the current obesity epidemic.
    Oh, I wasn't talking about plant based meat. Gross. I'm talking about harvesting cells from a live animal, without harming it, then growing those cells into larger chunks of meat. Right now it is incredibly expensive, but it is being done.

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  13. #313
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    riding on ketogenic diet - who's doing it?

    Quote Originally Posted by smoothmoose View Post
    If Keto means to you to get a good mix of plants and some meat, without worrying too much about what the carb impact is of the plants - I personally think that's the way to go.
    Yeah the macros is tough man. I used the carb manager app today. And because of a the gummy vitamins and probiotics i take, 1 cup of strawberries and some kale at lunch, almonds im out of carbs for the day actually 2grams over and i didnt exercise at all today.

    But i didnt have any refined sugars, flour etc. only meat ive had today was a hamburger patty mixed with the kale for lunch.

    Dinner tonight based on what ive done so far would have to be strictly fats probably all meat with no carbs. Im halfway to my fat for the day and about 1/2 on the protein.

    We will see if i get into ketosis but im definitely not into eating a side of beef every night.

    this was based on 2k caloric intake.

    Its worth a try for me. I lost 40 lbs last year just on calorie restriction but have put 15 back on. Ive been slacking for sure.
    Last edited by Dropper; 06-15-2018 at 04:15 PM.

  14. #314
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    I'm in ketosis with a great deal of greens. My meals are mostly free roaming chicken and eggs. Avacodos raw pumpkin seeds, raw almonds and coconut oil. So with veggies I may hit 50gr of carbs per day but it doesn't effect my ketosis.

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    I'm in ketosis with a great deal of greens. My meals are mostly free roaming chicken and eggs. Avacodos raw pumpkin seeds, raw almonds and coconut oil. So with veggies I may hit 50gr of carbs per day but it doesn't effect my ketosis.
    I only consume roughly 4-6 ounces of animal meat protein a day. So also not a large amount.

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  16. #316
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    Hey guys, I quit participating in mtbr forums some time ago, but recently had some blood tests done after 9 months on the keto diet and thought it might be useful and/or interesting to some of you.

    My previous blood panels were done about a year and a half ago when I was on a standard American diet. I had also taken a three month break from drinking prior to the 2017 tests, but resumed drinking at a moderate level since then. With the keto deal, I stick to low-carb beers and whiskey for the most part.

    My weight increased after the 2017 test, but I've lost about 20 pounds since starting keto.

    2017 tests.........2018 tests
    age......47............48
    BP........136/82.....110/62
    weight...223.........217
    Chol......213.........245
    Tri.........75...........57
    HDL.......46...........50
    LDL........152.........184

    About what I expected, and from what I've read LDL is pretty much a worthless number these days. Apparently it's a calculation, not an actual measurement, and the formula breaks down "significantly" overestimating LDL when triglycerides are low. If the doctor wants to get uptight about it, I may have a calcium scan done to see where I'm really at with heart attack risk.

    I track BP at home, and the 20 point drop is consistent, which I think is important, and I'm happy about that.

    Other factors with the diet I didn't anticipate is a real calming effect. I've always been pretty high strung, and lacked focus, and that's all gone now. Inflammation is another. For the past several years, I had joint pain all over my body every morning, and that's all gone now.

    Also, the keto effect on the bike is for real. I did a seven hour ride with 5500 feet of climbing last month, and didn't need to eat a thing. Never got hungry, never bonked, just had to stop and filter water a few times.

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  17. #317
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    Interesting, well your Tri went down which is good and your HDL went up good, you lost a little weight curious would be body fat.

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropper View Post
    Interesting, well your Tri went down which is good and your HDL went up good, you lost a little weight curious would be body fat.
    Currently, my scale is saying 18-20%. When I started keto it was 28-30%. I'm pretty comfortable at my current weight, but want to get down to about 15% eventually.

  19. #319
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    Nice results!

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  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Hey guys, I quit participating in mtbr forums some time ago, but recently had some blood tests done after 9 months on the keto diet and thought it might be useful and/or interesting to some of you.

    My previous blood panels were done about a year and a half ago when I was on a standard American diet. I had also taken a three month break from drinking prior to the 2017 tests, but resumed drinking at a moderate level since then. With the keto deal, I stick to low-carb beers and whiskey for the most part.

    My weight increased after the 2017 test, but I've lost about 20 pounds since starting keto.

    2017 tests.........2018 tests
    age......47............48
    BP........136/82.....110/62
    weight...223.........217
    Chol......213.........245
    Tri.........75...........57
    HDL.......46...........50
    LDL........152.........184

    About what I expected, and from what I've read LDL is pretty much a worthless number these days. Apparently it's a calculation, not an actual measurement, and the formula breaks down "significantly" overestimating LDL when triglycerides are low. If the doctor wants to get uptight about it, I may have a calcium scan done to see where I'm really at with heart attack risk.

    I track BP at home, and the 20 point drop is consistent, which I think is important, and I'm happy about that.

    Other factors with the diet I didn't anticipate is a real calming effect. I've always been pretty high strung, and lacked focus, and that's all gone now. Inflammation is another. For the past several years, I had joint pain all over my body every morning, and that's all gone now.

    Also, the keto effect on the bike is for real. I did a seven hour ride with 5500 feet of climbing last month, and didn't need to eat a thing. Never got hungry, never bonked, just had to stop and filter water a few times.

    .
    right on!!!

    I think most peoples problem is that they dont give Keto enough time to work. They want to see those adapted results in two months, not give it 6 months for your body to become fully adapted and efficient at using fat as a fuel.

    Nice to see these results!

  21. #321
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    Keto works great. I did it for a couple of months. The thing is, my wife is a great cook, and I felt very limited. I found out that portion control and following a good diet works well for me. I'm not on strict keto anymore but I try to keep carbs down still.

  22. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by AshevilleMTB View Post
    Keto works great. I did it for a couple of months. The thing is, my wife is a great cook, and I felt very limited. I found out that portion control and following a good diet works well for me. I'm not on strict keto anymore but I try to keep carbs down still.
    As I've continued to study and learn about the ketogenic lifestyle, "good diet" has become something entirely different than what we've been taught over the past fifty years. Youtube has been a great resource. I especially like Dr. Berg's videos on the subject. Short and concise, and he explains the science behind it without getting in too deep.

    I've gotten into this lifestyle deep enough that I bought Slim Jim's and peanuts to hand out on Halloween. My wife and friends said our house was going to get egged, but the kids loved it! Word got out on the street, and kids were coming to our door asking for "beef jerky" instead of the poison (candy) my wife insisted we also hand out.


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  23. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    I've gotten into this lifestyle deep enough that I bought Slim Jim's and peanuts to hand out on Halloween. My wife and friends said our house was going to get egged, but the kids loved it! Word got out on the street, and kids were coming to our door asking for "beef jerky" instead of the poison (candy) my wife insisted we also hand out.


    I agree candy is mostly poison but slim jims? I guess you don't have to worry about your nitrate levels being too low
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  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I agree candy is mostly poison but slim jims? I guess you don't have to worry about your nitrate levels being too low
    The nitrate and nitrite thing is a myth. Eat all the processed meats you want.

    The Nitrate and Nitrite Myth: No need to fear bacon, salami, or lunch meats |

    "four servings of celery or beets all have more nitrite than 400 hot dogs"

    And to quote another doctor I follow, "hotdogs and mustard may not be the best thing you can eat, but it's far better than Snickers and Cheetos".



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  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    The nitrate and nitrite thing is a myth. Eat all the processed meats you want.

    No thanks, I think I'll go with the general consensus on this one.
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  26. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    The nitrate and nitrite thing is a myth. Eat all the processed meats you want.

    The Nitrate and Nitrite Myth: No need to fear bacon, salami, or lunch meats |

    "four servings of celery or beets all have more nitrite than 400 hot dogs"

    And to quote another doctor I follow, "hotdogs and mustard may not be the best thing you can eat, but it's far better than Snickers and Cheetos".



    .



    I'll give you Cheetos but Snickers is a food group in of itself.
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  27. #327
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    I've been fine tuning my diet over the last months. Have been subscribing to many keto podcasts, kept tracking my micro and macronutrients etc. Since my goal is to use raw whole foods (or as close as possible) it also had to be food that tastes in its raw form (or by just cooking with nothing else, like meat). I also want to get all my nutrients without supplements.

    I made a spreadsheet (can't post here) where I entered all nutrients inc. potassium, calcium etc. since the goal was to lower carbs I calculate net carbs (carbs - fiber), potassium per net fiber, fat over protein (since too much protein ins't good and turns into carbs)

    riding on ketogenic diet - who's doing it?-food.jpg

    I first had a problem to get enough calcium, which was resolved by adding dairy products and then Chia seeds. Adding seeds really helped since all the animal products tend to be poor in potassium. i still have a hard time meeting all my potassium despite focussing on veggies high in potassium.

    Without any fruit (obviously no grain products) I get to 50 netcarbs a day. I learned milk products give me quite some carbs. So long I ate greek yogurt with chia and flax seed. But it turns out if I use sour cream I get less protein and carb, so will try that.

    Here my typical food:
    breakfast: whole milk greek yogurt with chia and flax seeds (will swap yogurt for sour creme)
    Morning snack: Avocado
    Lunch: Salad (Kale, cauliflower, broccoli, nuts, sunflower seed, olive oil, olives, radish, zucchini, crumbled cheese)
    Afternoon: can of oily fish (herring, Mackerel etc.) and/or some nuts
    Evening: tomato, fried meat (in olive oil, salmon, burger, or whatever)

    When I get hungry or get appetite I eat some more nuts. The above meat often gets replaced with boiled eggs, occasionally scrambled egg with bacon.

    The first day is the hardest and I eat a lot, then the body uses more fat and it gets better. So I really want to do it for longer. Unfortunately my family eats carbs, people at work bring donuts etc. So I often fall back and binge. Need more discipline.

    So far I'm too high in protein and gradually get more food with less protein and more fat. I'm still not at 70% fat intake.

    I bought some coconut oil and hope to make something with it. Maybe with the cocoa powder. I also will try to put butter in my coffee instead of milk. Maybe I switch to black tea since that doesn't require creamer (I hate black coffee).

    If nothing else I have a very diverse food intake. At least I should not have nay nutrient deficiency. And it is all tasty, which matters.
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  28. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    No thanks, I think I'll go with the general consensus on this one.
    I second that.

  29. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
    I've been fine tuning my diet over the last months. Have been subscribing to many keto podcasts, kept tracking my micro and macronutrients etc. Since my goal is to use raw whole foods (or as close as possible) it also had to be food that tastes in its raw form (or by just cooking with nothing else, like meat). I also want to get all my nutrients without supplements.

    I made a spreadsheet (can't post here) where I entered all nutrients inc. potassium, calcium etc. since the goal was to lower carbs I calculate net carbs (carbs - fiber), potassium per net fiber, fat over protein (since too much protein ins't good and turns into carbs)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I first had a problem to get enough calcium, which was resolved by adding dairy products and then Chia seeds. Adding seeds really helped since all the animal products tend to be poor in potassium. i still have a hard time meeting all my potassium despite focussing on veggies high in potassium.

    Without any fruit (obviously no grain products) I get to 50 netcarbs a day. I learned milk products give me quite some carbs. So long I ate greek yogurt with chia and flax seed. But it turns out if I use sour cream I get less protein and carb, so will try that.

    Here my typical food:
    breakfast: whole milk greek yogurt with chia and flax seeds (will swap yogurt for sour creme)
    Morning snack: Avocado
    Lunch: Salad (Kale, cauliflower, broccoli, nuts, sunflower seed, olive oil, olives, radish, zucchini, crumbled cheese)
    Afternoon: can of oily fish (herring, Mackerel etc.) and/or some nuts
    Evening: tomato, fried meat (in olive oil, salmon, burger, or whatever)

    When I get hungry or get appetite I eat some more nuts. The above meat often gets replaced with boiled eggs, occasionally scrambled egg with bacon.

    The first day is the hardest and I eat a lot, then the body uses more fat and it gets better. So I really want to do it for longer. Unfortunately my family eats carbs, people at work bring donuts etc. So I often fall back and binge. Need more discipline.

    So far I'm too high in protein and gradually get more food with less protein and more fat. I'm still not at 70% fat intake.

    I bought some coconut oil and hope to make something with it. Maybe with the cocoa powder. I also will try to put butter in my coffee instead of milk. Maybe I switch to black tea since that doesn't require creamer (I hate black coffee).

    If nothing else I have a very diverse food intake. At least I should not have nay nutrient deficiency. And it is all tasty, which matters.
    I did all raw for a while sirloin and tuna raw with soy sauce. Or slightly seared are pretty good. Veggie and nuts are raw. I still suplement potassium and magnesium. Im pretty sure it's because of over farming the soils because I cramp up even if my diet should cover enough.

  30. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    I did all raw for a while sirloin and tuna raw with soy sauce. Or slightly seared are pretty good. Veggie and nuts are raw. I still suplement potassium and magnesium. Im pretty sure it's because of over farming the soils because I cramp up even if my diet should cover enough.
    Meat is what I process (cook/fry). One for taste. and second to prevent diseases. I once ate raw herring and was surprised that it doesn't' taste like the cold pickled herring I was used to (which appears to be cooked :-)
    Soy seems highly processed, I just stay away from that.

    The nuts I have are roasted, so are the sunflower seeds. At least the ones I found at reasonable prices (really hard to find unsalted nuts, or nuts without raisins and chocolate etc.). Not sure it hurts, but it may make me overeat.

    Today I opened my coconut oil. Well, they should call it coconut wax based on feel and consistency (and taste). I first mixed it with cocoa and heated it up. This created some sort of dark weird tasting liquid. Yikes. then I used some to fry hamburgers in a pan. It was splashing a lot (like using fat that contains water). Taste was neutral, but it left a wax layer on the plate once it cooled down. I probably stay with olive oil.

    Any ideas what useful things (without adding artificial crap) could be done with coconut oil? i had that vision i could use it to mix it with seeds or so to make bars of some sort.
    I think I stick with more of what I listed above. At least I can just eat that without applying magic.
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  31. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
    Meat is what I process (cook/fry). One for taste. and second to prevent diseases. I once ate raw herring and was surprised that it doesn't' taste like the cold pickled herring I was used to (which appears to be cooked :-)
    Soy seems highly processed, I just stay away from that.

    The nuts I have are roasted, so are the sunflower seeds. At least the ones I found at reasonable prices (really hard to find unsalted nuts, or nuts without raisins and chocolate etc.). Not sure it hurts, but it may make me overeat.

    Today I opened my coconut oil. Well, they should call it coconut wax based on feel and consistency (and taste). I first mixed it with cocoa and heated it up. This created some sort of dark weird tasting liquid. Yikes. then I used some to fry hamburgers in a pan. It was splashing a lot (like using fat that contains water). Taste was neutral, but it left a wax layer on the plate once it cooled down. I probably stay with olive oil.

    Any ideas what useful things (without adding artificial crap) could be done with coconut oil? i had that vision i could use it to mix it with seeds or so to make bars of some sort.
    I think I stick with more of what I listed above. At least I can just eat that without applying magic.
    I use the liquid coconut oil. It has a higher MCT count and more versital.

  32. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
    Meat is what I process (cook/fry). One for taste. and second to prevent diseases. I once ate raw herring and was surprised that it doesn't' taste like the cold pickled herring I was used to (which appears to be cooked :-)
    Soy seems highly processed, I just stay away from that.

    The nuts I have are roasted, so are the sunflower seeds. At least the ones I found at reasonable prices (really hard to find unsalted nuts, or nuts without raisins and chocolate etc.). Not sure it hurts, but it may make me overeat.

    Today I opened my coconut oil. Well, they should call it coconut wax based on feel and consistency (and taste). I first mixed it with cocoa and heated it up. This created some sort of dark weird tasting liquid. Yikes. then I used some to fry hamburgers in a pan. It was splashing a lot (like using fat that contains water). Taste was neutral, but it left a wax layer on the plate once it cooled down. I probably stay with olive oil.

    Any ideas what useful things (without adding artificial crap) could be done with coconut oil? i had that vision i could use it to mix it with seeds or so to make bars of some sort.
    I think I stick with more of what I listed above. At least I can just eat that without applying magic.
    The "waxyness" is because it has high saturated fats. Despite the propaganda of recent years, saturated fats aren't bad for you, and coconut oil is especially not bad for you. As for salt, keto and/or low carb leave people deficient in sodium, especially people who exercise. Not only do you not need to avoid it, you should be adding it to your diet.

    Soy vs. Coconut oil
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCVvw-ReyBE

    Good fat vs bad fat (be sure to watch the very end)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn29mdxEw9w

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  33. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Hey guys, I quit participating in mtbr forums some time ago, but recently had some blood tests done after 9 months on the keto diet and thought it might be useful and/or interesting to some of you.

    My previous blood panels were done about a year and a half ago when I was on a standard American diet. I had also taken a three month break from drinking prior to the 2017 tests, but resumed drinking at a moderate level since then. With the keto deal, I stick to low-carb beers and whiskey for the most part.

    My weight increased after the 2017 test, but I've lost about 20 pounds since starting keto.

    2017 tests.........2018 tests
    age......47............48
    BP........136/82.....110/62
    weight...223.........217
    Chol......213.........245
    Tri.........75...........57
    HDL.......46...........50
    LDL........152.........184
    Received a message from my doctor today, and it looks like they're not too worried about the LDL number.

    "Your cholesterol results and other factors mean that you are at low risk of heart disease or stroke in the next ten years."



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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    The "waxyness" is because it has high saturated fats. Despite the propaganda of recent years, saturated fats aren't bad for you, and coconut oil is especially not bad for you. As for salt, keto and/or low carb leave people deficient in sodium, especially people who exercise. Not only do you not need to avoid it, you should be adding it to your diet.

    Soy vs. Coconut oil
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCVvw-ReyBE

    Good fat vs bad fat (be sure to watch the very end)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn29mdxEw9w

    .
    Thanks, great youtube channel by Dr. Berg. I first thought I want to try the liquid coconut oil, but it seems to have many of the good acids removed.

    i experimented with some more food. I tried to make a coconut bars, but they were weird. I just stick with coconut flakes in sour cream or coconut oil.

    I also tried heavy whipped cream. Tastes weird without sugar. I ended up suing it up as cream in coffee. I guess my stomach doesn't like it so much. will do more butter or coconut oil in coffee.

    The more I eat unprocessed food the more I dislike processed food. For example I ate bacon from a local butcher (that bacon goes bad after some time). that is great. then I tried some bacon from the grocery store from a package, that is heavy in my stomach.
    2018 Motobecane Sturgis NX
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    Been thinking about making this switch for a long time. Glad I found this thread.

    Been fit and athletic my whole life but got my a1c checked when I was 35 and was one tick away from pre diabetic. Skinny, low body fat, was a real eye opener.

    I think there are far more of us out there who think we are healthy but have never actually looked at a1c, tracked blood glucose, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mopes View Post
    Been thinking about making this switch for a long time. Glad I found this thread.

    Been fit and athletic my whole life but got my a1c checked when I was 35 and was one tick away from pre diabetic. Skinny, low body fat, was a real eye opener.

    I think there are far more of us out there who think we are healthy but have never actually looked at a1c, tracked blood glucose, etc.
    I didn't mention it above, but my A1C and glucose test results came in later. Similar situation of A1C being a tenth away from pre-diabetic previously, now a full point below. Glucose dropped from borderline to ten points below.


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    A question for those who use keto diet and do some intense trainings or rides.

    As I understood, Low-Mid intensity long rides on keto diet is ok.

    How about XC or CX, Up Hills? Where the intensity, speed is much higher?
    Not road or double track rides at pace speeds.

    Just two weeks ago I started a very low carb diet, not sure if it's a proper keto diet as I don't count calories...
    restricted almost totally carbs, added more fat. same amount of protein (daily meat, eggs...)

    The reason was to flatten my energy, productivity and mood spikes during the day.
    This was already achieved, I can jump now on my bike any time I have a 30-60 min window.
    Was not possible 2 weeks ago, as i needed to eat something before any ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oleg View Post
    A question for those who use keto diet and do some intense trainings or rides.

    As I understood, Low-Mid intensity long rides on keto diet is ok.

    How about XC or CX, Up Hills? Where the intensity, speed is much higher?
    Not road or double track rides at pace speeds.

    Just two weeks ago I started a very low carb diet, not sure if it's a proper keto diet as I don't count calories...
    restricted almost totally carbs, added more fat. same amount of protein (daily meat, eggs...)

    The reason was to flatten my energy, productivity and mood spikes during the day.
    This was already achieved, I can jump now on my bike any time I have a 30-60 min window.
    Was not possible 2 weeks ago, as i needed to eat something before any ride.
    You will suffer on high intensity/fast paced rides for quite some time. Everyone is different, but it can take 3-6 months before the body is fully efficient at using fats for fuel. At this time you will start to see your performance pick back up to where it was previously, or in some people even surpass their previous peaks.

    This is my experience anyways, and from many I have followed and talked to.

    If you want a real scientific approach, look up Dominic D'agostino. IMO, the most educated in the keto space.

  39. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oleg View Post
    A question for those who use keto diet and do some intense trainings or rides.

    As I understood, Low-Mid intensity long rides on keto diet is ok.

    How about XC or CX, Up Hills? Where the intensity, speed is much higher?
    Not road or double track rides at pace speeds.

    Just two weeks ago I started a very low carb diet, not sure if it's a proper keto diet as I don't count calories...
    restricted almost totally carbs, added more fat. same amount of protein (daily meat, eggs...)

    The reason was to flatten my energy, productivity and mood spikes during the day.
    This was already achieved, I can jump now on my bike any time I have a 30-60 min window.
    Was not possible 2 weeks ago, as i needed to eat something before any ride.
    My ultra high intensity dropped off significantly after going keto. Took a long time before I was able to do the kind of high heart rate max efforts I did in the past, but I still don't have the incredible hulk moments I used to without getting "carbed up".

    There isn't much info out there right now about using sugar as a high intensity booster during a workout/race. For sure fructose (sugar from fruit) is bad, as it has to be stored in the liver before it can be utilized later, and actually hurts performance in the short term. Glucose on the other hand can go directly to the muscles and be used as fuel immediately or stored in the muscle for later use without being processed by the liver (interfering with ketosis).

    I've experimented a few times with eating glucose based energy bars while riding, and they definitely had a rocket-fuel impact. Short lived, but I didn't crash after burning it off, seemed like I went right back to burning fat. Need to study it more and experiment more though.

    Something else I've only just started experimenting with is adding minerals to my water while riding. I kind of stumbled on it by accident, filling up my water bottles at local natural springs during a ride, and finding it really improved my energy levels.



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    My guess is the ability to do high intensity on Keto varies across individuals and even for a single person depending on other factors. I've been keto on and off for the last few years. I mostly just do keto when I'm training for 3+ hour races or big bike packing or otherwise Epic events. Part of my Primal-style endocrine system trading is to come into a 2 hour session having fasted for 15-18 hours and stay fasted for a few hours after the work out. ...sometimes 22 hours without food with a definite anaerobic workout at the end. Since DLS began that means something like this intervals on bike, box jump every 3 seconds for a mindnumbing 15 minutes, squats, deadlifts, etc.

  41. #341
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    Once adapted I can do sudden speed burst. And endurance is much improved. Hour long high intensity workout in the gym 3x a week as well. As mentioned make sure minerals are high since most veggies are grown in over farmed soil.

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    But is it ok to be on ketosis and load some carbs periodically before or during the ride day?

    I'm asking because I think I dont' understand fully the keto metabolism. I think like it's difficult, time consuming to become fat adaptive untill you body dosn't require carbs anymore, and one day if you eat some porridge for example, your body will switch back/loose ketosis state.
    Or, if I'm not yet into ketosis, but on a keto diet already and I'll eat porridge one morning, will this blow away all my efforts and I'll need one more month to reach that ketosis state?

    Another questions: should I till reach ketosis be more restrictive, use for example less 20gr carbs, and after I'm fat adapted, I can already add some vegetables for example which will increase carbs intake?

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    I think there is an issue with pork fats and dairy, also gluten.
    Pigs are animals that don't expel toxins so you eat them.
    Milk can be bad for some people and most shouldn't be drinking it or eating fat cheese.
    Gluten has been found to be the cause of a lot of inflammation and other issues, including self immune reactions.

    Everyone is different and you need to find the diet that agrees with you.

    Some blood types agree more with animal fats than others, in general group 0 is the most carnivorous, while group a is more vegetarian.

    The key is to get rid of foods that we are not good at digesting and of course avoid getting all the carbs from cereals that increase glicemy.

    A bad diet causes issues like slipped discs, headache, nausea and lack of energy, bad sport performance.

    Having said that I wouldn't buy a diet that is not tailor made for the patient. It won't work as expected.


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  44. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oleg View Post
    But is it ok to be on ketosis and load some carbs periodically before or during the ride day?

    I'm asking because I think I dont' understand fully the keto metabolism. I think like it's difficult, time consuming to become fat adaptive untill you body dosn't require carbs anymore, and one day if you eat some porridge for example, your body will switch back/loose ketosis state.
    Or, if I'm not yet into ketosis, but on a keto diet already and I'll eat porridge one morning, will this blow away all my efforts and I'll need one more month to reach that ketosis state?

    Another questions: should I till reach ketosis be more restrictive, use for example less 20gr carbs, and after I'm fat adapted, I can already add some vegetables for example which will increase carbs intake?
    I shoot for under 30gr carbs a day. After being on keto for a bit 30day. I find i can have a cheat meal once a week with about 100gr carbs(this will increasemetabolism). I can be in keto by mid next day if i workout or ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oleg View Post
    But is it ok to be on ketosis and load some carbs periodically before or during the ride day?

    I'm asking because I think I dont' understand fully the keto metabolism. I think like it's difficult, time consuming to become fat adaptive untill you body dosn't require carbs anymore, and one day if you eat some porridge for example, your body will switch back/loose ketosis state.
    Or, if I'm not yet into ketosis, but on a keto diet already and I'll eat porridge one morning, will this blow away all my efforts and I'll need one more month to reach that ketosis state?

    Another questions: should I till reach ketosis be more restrictive, use for example less 20gr carbs, and after I'm fat adapted, I can already add some vegetables for example which will increase carbs intake?
    It's best to stay on the keto diet for a good period of time before you start trying to incorporate carbs again. At some point, you should be able to develop a "metabolic flexibility" which allows you to eat some carbs, burn them off, and then go right back to ketones without missing a beat. Kind of like living off some animals you've killed, then occasionally picking up an apple while out hunting for more animals.

    As I said above, there's not much info out there about incorporating carbs to improve athletic performace while following a keto diet, so you just kind of need to experiment with what works for you.

    Some people don't think carbs from vegetables should be counted at all, because of their high fiber content, and the nutrients they contain. I've been eating way more veg recently, and haven't noticed any negative impacts. While not truely "keto", I've been looking more at glycemic load charts and using them as a guide in an effort to control insulin response, because that seems to be at the core of a lot of health problems, and offers more dietary flexibility without keeping me from running on fat as my primary fuel source.



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    Thanks for sharing interesting thoughts and experience.

    I wasn't on high carbs before, so this two weeks was ok with flu symptoms.

    I've done a ride last Friday, 3 hours, at least medium intensity as it was 4-5" of snow, icy, hilly and bellow freezing temperatures on my fatbike.

    This was first ride after two weeks with very very low carb (can't say it was a proper keto, as i don't know if the intake of fat was enough).

    Pros: First time for a such long ride I didn't remember about food ( and i didn't eat for last 6-7 hours).
    After the ride fatigue was different than before. It wasn't such starving, hands shaking, bad mood...
    I take Creatine for a wile, so pick power was ok.

    Cons: can't say for sure if intense sectors was more difficult, because weather conditions was totally different from my last rides.
    I'll try later an upwill sprint 1.1km and will compare the time with "carbs" rides.

    last weekend after that ride I've eat porridge, some popkorn.... I felt bad, hand shaking, headache...

  47. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oleg View Post
    Thanks for sharing interesting thoughts and experience.

    I wasn't on high carbs before, so this two weeks was ok with flu symptoms.

    I've done a ride last Friday, 3 hours, at least medium intensity as it was 4-5" of snow, icy, hilly and bellow freezing temperatures on my fatbike.

    This was first ride after two weeks with very very low carb (can't say it was a proper keto, as i don't know if the intake of fat was enough).
    I'd suggest doing a little more reading on the ketogenic diet. Reddit, Gary Taubes' books, and Volek and Phinney are my favorite go to sources.

    You are nutritionally in ketosis by now but you're body is not fat adapted. The true performance benefits won't show up for another 6+ weeks when your body adapts to using fat on a cellular level.

    You also state that you don't know if your fat intake was enough. That really has nothing to do with ketosis. Deprive your body of carbs and you will enter ketosis no matter how much/little fat you've eaten. High fat is there to provide the calories and keep you satiated in place of the carbs you typically eat but it is not what makes you enter ketosis.

    Keep up the work!

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    Quote Originally Posted by AMac4108 View Post
    Deprive your body of carbs and you will enter ketosis no matter how much/little fat you've eaten. High fat is there to provide the calories and keep you satiated in place of the carbs you typically eat but it is not what makes you enter ketosis.
    Unless you eat too much protein, which will then be converted to sugar and keep you out of ketosis.


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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Unless you eat too much protein, which will then be converted to sugar and keep you out of ketosis.


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    Yes, but you'd have to eat a pretty huge/impossible amount in a single sitting for this to become an issue. Gluconeogenesis is driven by the body demanding glucose, it's not driven by over supplying protein.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    It's best to stay on the keto diet for a good period of time before you start trying to incorporate carbs again. At some point, you should be able to develop a "metabolic flexibility" which allows you to eat some carbs, burn them off, and then go right back to ketones without missing a beat. Kind of like living off some animals you've killed, then occasionally picking up an apple while out hunting for more animals.

    As I said above, there's not much info out there about incorporating carbs to improve athletic performace while following a keto diet, so you just kind of need to experiment with what works for you.

    Some people don't think carbs from vegetables should be counted at all, because of their high fiber content, and the nutrients they contain. I've been eating way more veg recently, and haven't noticed any negative impacts. While not truely "keto", I've been looking more at glycemic load charts and using them as a guide in an effort to control insulin response, because that seems to be at the core of a lot of health problems, and offers more dietary flexibility without keeping me from running on fat as my primary fuel source.

    I don't have any time at the moment to chime in with as much detail as I'd like, but I began the keto thing back in January and have experimented during the past year. A good bit of my personal finding have mirrored what _CJ has said in his last few posts.

    I was super strict for 3-4 months, pretty strict for follow 2 months, took 3 weeks off, then came back with my version of a sustainable model for me. My day to day life I run nutritional ketosis with about 35 grams of net carbs. My macros are consistently around 70-20-10. But as I gear up for a race I up my carb intake, and sometimes even pop out of ketosis. But with my metabolic flexibility, I find that my body can still operate in the event as if I was still in ketosis. I can race 3-4 hrs and take in nothing, but still have the high-end needed. Sometimes I'll even ingest a Hammer Gel or so if I feel I needed. However, the next morning I'm back in measurable Ketosis. I occasionally do the same with higher intensity training rides to (I do a lot of road riding).

    After my 6 month adaptation phase, I bought a blood ketone meter and have played around with how high I can get my carb intake and still stay in ketosis. Generally, its higher than I'd have estimated. If I'm riding regularly then I can consume things traditionally thought to be off-limits and still remain in ketosis. Example: I had 2 pieces of quiche the other morning and had no ill effects (blood ketone measure or feelings). About 1x per week I have a whole grain pancake at my local diner (along with eggs & bacon). I always bring in my own sugar free syrup though. This also has had no measurable side effects for me. Lately, I've developed a little bit of a uneccesary attraction to cool-whip that I need to ease back off on. But its been these little things that have made a long-term Keto lifestyle for me very plausible.

    Later,
    CJB

  51. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    It's best to stay on the keto diet for a good period of time before you start trying to incorporate carbs again. At some point, you should be able to develop a "metabolic flexibility" which allows you to eat some carbs, burn them off, and then go right back to ketones without missing a beat. Kind of like living off some animals you've killed, then occasionally picking up an apple while out hunting for more animals.

    As I said above, there's not much info out there about incorporating carbs to improve athletic performace while following a keto diet, so you just kind of need to experiment with what works for you.

    Some people don't think carbs from vegetables should be counted at all, because of their high fiber content, and the nutrients they contain. I've been eating way more veg recently, and haven't noticed any negative impacts. While not truely "keto", I've been looking more at glycemic load charts and using them as a guide in an effort to control insulin response, because that seems to be at the core of a lot of health problems, and offers more dietary flexibility without keeping me from running on fat as my primary fuel source.



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    Look into Targeted Keto Diet.

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    As I understand, if we do more or daily exercise/rides, than we can eat more carbs and be into ketosis, compared to someone who is not active. Or days/seasons when we ride compared to off the season or "no riding days".
    Or there is no relation between on or off the bike days?

  53. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oleg View Post
    As I understand, if we do more or daily exercise/rides, than we can eat more carbs and be into ketosis, compared to someone who is not active. Or days/seasons when we ride compared to off the season or "no riding days".
    Or there is no relation between on or off the bike days?
    An athlete can have more carbs. If you want to stay in ketosis they need to be less than you burn so you're burning fat by the end. I felt worse doing it though. The TKD is for performance and to keep metabolism up. I find i do better with a carb/cheat meal once a week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oleg View Post
    As I understand, if we do more or daily exercise/rides, than we can eat more carbs and be into ketosis, compared to someone who is not active. Or days/seasons when we ride compared to off the season or "no riding days".
    Or there is no relation between on or off the bike days?
    Yes, for sure.

    For example, I can come into a 2.5 hr Tuesday night 'bandit' road race training ride and consume a Hammergel (23 gm carbs) before heading out. Then take another during the 'race' and find that I'm still in ketosis an hour after its over. Now this is a fairly high effort of exertion, but its still an example of how under certain conditions you can consume carbs/sugars and remain in ketosis.

    Thanks
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    So I have 4 weeks trying keto diet.
    Overall I feel pretty well (btw I'm totally healthy, 38years, 182cm/80kg, so trying keto just as an experiment).

    Mistake I did:
    when I started, I reduced calories intake by eliminating carbs, but didn't replaced them with something else, to keep calories amount at same level.

    Riding:

    15% 1km hill:
    I can ride above 70%+ of my intensity only for up to ~30sec. and I'm out of puff
    Need to change the gear to a much easier one.
    But can do it again at high intensity (again only for 20-30 sec) after a 2-3 min easy ride, or after a stop.
    Before that I could climb that hill for 8 minutes at my limits all the way long.

    If I'm climbing at a low-medium intensity pace I can do it well.

    Riding on a flat at 30-40km/h, I think it was improved actually. I can go longer at such pace, but difficult to push faster.

    Guess this happens, just because I'm not yet fully on ketosis and my body glycogen reserves are very low.

    Overall:
    I like how I feel, if I'm hungry I'm ok now, still calm, Productivity is at same level all the day long (I'm in IT, so using my brain and concentration).

    Riding and fitness, actually after 4 weeks, I don't like how I perform. But guess it's just to early to make a conclusion about.

    I May 2019 I'll have a ~50km XC marathon, so will see how after a 6 months at that time of keto diet I will perform.
    Another test will be in June, 1100km touring ride.
    Last edited by Oleg; 1 Week Ago at 04:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oleg View Post
    So I have 4 weeks trying keto diet.
    Overall I feel pretty well (btw I'm totally healthy, 38years, 182cm/80kg, so trying keto just as an experiment).

    Mistake I did:
    when I started, I reduced calories intake by eliminating carbs, but didn't replaced them with something else, to keep calories amount at same level.

    Riding:

    15% 1km hill:
    I can ride above 70%+ of my intensity only for up to ~30sec. and I'm out of puff
    Need to change the gear to a much easier one.
    But can do it again at high intensity (again only for 20-30 sec) after a 2-3 min easy ride, or after a stop.
    Before that I could climb that hill for 8 minutes at my limits all the way long.

    If I'm climbing at a low-medium intensity pace I can do it well.

    Riding on a flat at 30-40km/h, I think it was improved actually. I can go longer at such pace, but difficult to push faster.

    Guess this happens, just because I'm not yet fully on ketosis and my body glycogen reserves are very low.

    Overall:
    I like how I feel, if I'm hungry I'm ok now, still calm, Productivity is at same level all the day long (I'm in IT, so using my brain and concentration).

    Riding and fitness, actually after 4 weeks, I don't like how I perform. But guess it's just to early to make a conclusion about.

    I May 2019 I'll have a ~50km XC marathon, so will see how after a 6 months at that time of keto diet I will perform.
    Another test will be in June, 1100km touring ride.

    A few things...

    IMHO being only 4 weeks in, even though you may be becoming 'fat-adapted', these new metabolic pathways of processing calories are not really close to being optimized. I'M NO EXPERT IN BIOLOGY, but my guess (and research) is that you have to get out closer to 3 months to begin to see some efficiencies. Even then, I heard Dom D-Agostino say that at 9 months in you can be about 80% of previous performance.

    I began in January and had a pretty significant race at end of March (Ouachita Challenge, 60 mi, 6k ft of climbing). I spent 2.5 months with aggressive carb reduction (less than 25 per day). However, in the lead up to the event, with me feeling little 'flat' in my legs, I began to experiment with low glycemic carbs(sweet potato w/butter & sour cream) the night before my harder rides. It was a pretty good success.

    like you, I found through my experimentation that I really like the day-to-day lifestyle, but found the athlete/cycling aspect a bit more challenging. However over time now, my ability to fuel myself is pretty versatile. I have a flexibility that has allowed me some options on how I want to approach an event. My suspicions are that your marathon may need to be gently supplemented with some clean carbs. But that your June touring ride would be optimal for the keto riding nutritional plan. Your biggest challenge there may be finding and location enough quality food/calories along the way.

    Keep us posted. I think this kind of insight into people's experimentation is good for the "collective" here.

    Cheers,
    CJB

  57. #357
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    Everyone is different and I personally never followed a very high carb diet. But I dont buy into it taking close to a year to adapt.

    Things to consider:
    Its hard to get a lot of B vitamins on this diet. So try supplementing.
    Make sure to get enough electrolytes and consider creatine supplements.

  58. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBaron View Post
    I began to experiment with low glycemic carbs(sweet potato w/butter & sour cream) the night before my harder rides. It was a pretty good success.
    I may be dating myself here, but when I was a kid our coaches always told our parents to serve a high carb meal the night before game day. aka carbo-loading. Seems they may have had this deal figured out way back when, before all the high carb low fat BS took hold.


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  59. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Everyone is different and I personally never followed a very high carb diet. But I dont buy into it taking close to a year to adapt.

    Things to consider:
    Its hard to get a lot of B vitamins on this diet. So try supplementing.
    Make sure to get enough electrolytes and consider creatine supplements.

    Yeah, I don't want to state that whats best for me is best for everyone. My goal is to share direct personal experience, especially inside the realm of cycling (performance). But I literally did a few months of research before I jumped in and Dom D'Agostino is considered one of the leading minds in the field. His comment about performance and adaptation was in regards to high-end competitive athletes being able to perform back up to pre-LFHC levels. He said something along the lines of quickly becoming fat-adapted to fully get by in daily life. However returning to full high-end performance had a slower adaptation curve. (worth noting that he was not specifically referencing cycling athletes)

    Dom's Website in case anyone is interested.
    https://www.ketonutrition.org/about/

    If you want to kill a few hours, I found his interview on the Joe Rogan Podcast fascinating.
    https://youtu.be/keSoSyu9m7c


    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    I may be dating myself here, but when I was a kid our coaches always told our parents to serve a high carb meal the night before game day. aka carbo-loading. Seems they may have had this deal figured out way back when, before all the high carb low fat BS took hold.
    .
    As I've stated previously in this thread, one fo the things I struggled with was finding good info about Keto lifestyle as it related directly to CYCLIST. I could find info about ultra-runners, weight lifters, Navy SEALS, but not so much about the kind of riding I do (marathon MTB and Road Racing). However, I did run across some info about a road team in Europe who had about half of their squad on a LCHF diet. And they were adding in sweat potatos and fatty steak the night before races. They felt it was important to keep the fat content high in the meal so that your macros didn't get out of wack. So I load my sweet potato up with butter and sour cream. And not that it really matters in application, but I do find that the next morning before my ride/race, I'm still in ketosis. So I consider that a win/win. Still functioning on a metabolic level as a fat-burner....but having my clean carb stores completely topped off for the ride.

  60. #360
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    So one week in Keto without cheating. Lowered my carbs to under 20g by cutting out my sourcream with chia seeds etc. (will add that back at some point for the nutritional value). I worked out more thna usually, but not a much. I also started to eat when I'm hungry, not by the clock

    Here the results:

    1. lost around 5 lb (I know much is water when glycogen is depleted). From 178# to 173# at 5'11". Maybe it is my imagination, but my belly seems to shrink. My target is 164#.
    2. The first few days I ate a lot. Then I was less hungry and stretched out foods and ended up doing the 16/8 intermittent fasting. it was more an accident since i didn't feel hungry. My first meal was at around 11am and the last before 7 pm.
    2. Even when I had fatbike rides in the morning i didn't eat before and didn't feel hungry.
    3. I was able to not eat any of the treats at work. I typically eat 3 since I'm a compulsive eater. I didn't eat on donut day, not on cookie day (apparently last week was national cookie day) and Pizza day. I didn't feel regrets and wasn't hungry walking by the treats (they tend to last for a few hours in our office)
    4. This morning I did a 43km fatbike tour (same single track, some tarmac, 622 meters elevation gain). I didn't eat before and my last meal last night was before 7pm. When I came back at 1 pm I still didn't eat and wasn't hungry for another hour. I was stupid not taking any water with me due to 22°F freezing, so at the end of the tour I was a bit weak. i blame it on dehydration since I sweated a lot. Note this is a very long fatbike tour for me, most are much less, especially in winter.
    5. I did some dumbbell exercises this week. My method is to work up to 20 reps and then increase the weight. I was still able to increase the number of reps and jump over to the next weight on some exercises. So my muscle strength didn't suffer from Keto. Note I don't have many muscles to begin with.

    So far it goes well and i feel great and still strong (well, as strong as i can since I'm weak to begin with). Keto is only part of the improvement, it is the combination of the above lifestyle changes (working out, avoiding treats etc.)
    2018 Motobecane Sturgis NX
    2016 Giant Toughroad SLR1

  61. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
    SMaybe it is my imagination, but my belly seems to shrink. My target is 164#.
    I was struggling for months to get rid of 3-4 kg more (from my belly), I was at a limit where it was required much more effort to loose next 1kg than last 3.

    The only method that worked for me was keto diet, so definitely you'll see it shrink.

  62. #362
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    CBaron,
    yes totally agree, XC race will require some slow carbs. It's pretty technical, where pick force will be used often.
    Touring, I also think it will be ok.
    Thanks for tip, I forgot that I need to plan my meals

    I'm not using now creatine, just to test the influence of carb restriction.

    I've ride my usual forest trail today, it's a 15km long and ~500m elevation, with many small steep climbs (10-200m long and 10-30%).

    Interesting facts:

    A 300m long hill, at 10%, same for 600m at 13%

    In 5th gear (from biggest to smaller) I can ride only about 50m and I'm out, my legs are burning, my heart rate is at maximum.
    On carb diet I could go up to top.

    In 3rd gear, pacing my self, so actually it's sub threshold intensity, actually I feel better at top, compared to being on carbs.

    Ok, this is pretty obvious.
    One thing I can't understand, is why same hill, same gear, same conditions if earlier on carbs I was riding it at let say 80% of my maximum heart rate, now I'm riding it at my maximum HR.

    Also, (not yet totally sure, need to test more) it looks like, at a sub threshold intensity, same hill, same gear, same conditions, on keto HR is lower than on carbs.

  63. #363
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  64. #364
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    Another improvement I sow, was for fast technical Downhill rides.

    There are few segments I ride, where you can go at 50-60km/h for ~300-500m long.
    Terrain is inclined on one side, with traces from quadro-cyclists that rides there, and every time it's different due to whether conditions. So you can't go on what you are used to do from last time.
    Before I was always on brakes, as I couldn't keep control on everything at high speed, even crashed few times.

    Now I'm going down at maximum speed I can get there (50-60km/h on a fatbike) with no brakes and I fell that everything is under control. I have time to understand and react quick.

    ____________________

    Another improvement

    I'm periodically commute to work on my Cyclocross, ~30min one way.
    I can now arrive at work and start to work! instead of "Wait 10 min I just ride 30min, need a coffee brake... "
    ______________

    As a summary, as a cyclist after 5 weeks, on very strict keto diet, carbs only from vegetables/salads:

    - Intensities up to probably 70%, are improved. I'm feeling better after a medium intensity ride even if it's few hours long.
    - Even after a short very intense interval, my mind is clear, no foggy vision (ok, my muscles are burning and heart rate is at maximum).
    - Acuity and focus, reactions are improved, less errors during rides.

    The only think I don't like now: the Intensities above threshold (70%+).

    As others say here it needs more time. In the video CBraon shared, D'Agostino say it needs 3 to 6 months.
    Why I started this before Christmas and New Year ?!!

  65. #365
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    Yep you chose a challenging time to get started. I waited until after the holidays to begin, and thus had the luxury to further research the topic for a few months.

    If you are interested in trying to find some answers to your physiological questions as it relates to Keto vs Glucose base performance, then I'd highly recommend this book by Volek and Phinney. In that Dom D'Agostino video he references these guys a few times as leaders in this area of study. This book is geared towards the keto athlete and lists very specific scientific studies that have been done. Its interesting and compelling (even though my own 'case study of 1' has not lined up exactly with the studies).
    https://www.amazon.com/Art-Science-L.../dp/0983490716

    Cheers,
    CJB

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