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  1. #1
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    Keto diet a fad?

    Does anyone practice keto diet?
    What the heck is it?

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    Go to the Akins diet website. Ton of info. There are now many marketed variants with questionable claims. Basically, you are tricking your body into a state of starvation. The brain and muscles prefer glucose as an energy source. When that is taken away the body has to look to fat as an energy source. You are now in a state of ketosis. However many can not tolerate being in that state for prolonged periods of time.

    Many diets are ketogenic, not a true state of ketosis, but a diet relatively low in carbs. Diets should have low levels of homemade pasta, brown rice and whole grains. Minimally processed root vegetables are a better source of carbs.

    Knowledge is evolving. Fats that were unacceptable before are now in vogue. I have a container of bacon grease on my stove. Carbs back in the day used to be okay but are now evil. Americans typically get enough protein. Vegans have to be more attentive.

    Iím a carnivore and I have a smoker so Iíve been on the original Akins diet. Iím not paying a company to keep me at a low carb count.

    Caveat- if your not in a true state of ketosis and say if youíre eating lots of nuts, bacon and other calorie dense foods, you may gain weight. Low carbs is not necessarily a get out of jail free card.


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  3. #3
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    2 years on keto. I really love it, and find it easy to stick to. Works very well with intermittent fasting.

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    Did keto for about six months, it was ok. I don't need to lose weight. Advantages were no hunger cravings and more steady energy on and off the bike. I read some things that it was bad in the long term so I switched to a low carb hybrid of 2 days with carbs/5 days without. This is also much more manageable just living life because no one wants to be that guy at a party who can't eat this or that.

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    Isn't every diet a fad?

    Keto seems to work for everyone I know that has tried it and it's easier to stick to than other diets it seems. The flip side is that unless you stay on it, you tend to end up back where you started.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrallen View Post
    Isn't every diet a fad?

    ... The flip side is that unless you stay on it, you tend to end up back where you started.
    That is the case with every diet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TMWTP View Post
    That is the case with every diet.

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    So true, including bariatric surgery..... and I likes to eat

    At least for me when I drastically limit my carbs and when I do partake itís in the form of rice, fried potatoes or corn tortillas but not processed sugary stuff, my carb cravings are limited. If I want something sugary I should eat a piece of fruit.


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    I've been keto for about two years, and have evolved into more of a carnivore way of eating recently. The changes have been dramatic, well beyond weight loss....reduced inflammation, improved mental health, etc. and I don't plan to ever go back to eating manufactured processed crap that makes me sick ever again. This isn't a fad, this is the way humans have sustained themselves for millions of years.

  9. #9
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    My brother-in-law is on the keto and he's annoying as hell about it. He lost some weight and preaches the benefits non stop. There are some ultra-marathon runners on keto but as far as I'm aware keto is not a good diet plan for anyone doing high intensity type workouts but there is no performance loss when it comes to longer endurance type activities.

    It's not for me since I eat pasta and bread religiously with no plans on slowing down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    My brother-in-law is on the keto and he's annoying as hell about it. He lost some weight and preaches the benefits non stop. There are some ultra-marathon runners on keto but as far as I'm aware keto is not a good diet plan for anyone doing high intensity type workouts but there is no performance loss when it comes to longer endurance type activities.

    It's not for me since I eat pasta and bread religiously with no plans on slowing down.
    Eventually pasta and bread will slow you down weather you plan to or not. It's called insulin resistance, or type II diabetes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Eventually pasta and bread will slow you down weather you plan to or not. It's called insulin resistance, or type II diabetes.
    Not too worried about it, thanks for the tip though
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    Chronic high Insulin, and inflammation are silent killers. Almost all diseases can be linked to inflammation. Keto and carnivore are very anti-inflammatory. Keeping carb intake low, and therefore insulin low may help prevent disease. Given the crap food we have in the states, avoiding carbs might be the only way. Carbs in other countries don't have the excess, processed sugar. Specifically fructose, which is processed differently than other carbs.

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  13. #13
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    Do you riders on Keto take a multi-vitamin?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    Do you riders on Keto take a multi-vitamin?
    Electrolytes are most often what people on keto need to supplement while riding long distances, but that's probably true for anyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Electrolytes are most often what people on keto need to supplement while riding long distances, but that's probably true for anyone.
    I was actually focusing more on fruits and vegetables with their naturally occurring carbs. I'm sure you didn't cut them completely out of your diet but cutting back could still deprive your body of important nutrients it needs. So that's why I ask, do you take a multi-vitamin? Rely on low carb fruits and veggies? Another source?
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    Almost all vegeatables are 'keto friendly,' most fruits are not. 'Net carbs' are what you are trying to keep low. Basically, fiber doesn't count. I supplement with a multivitamin, as well as several minerals...most noteably 2 different types of magnesium, turmeric, lots of sodium, and plenty of other electrolytes. Without the electrolytes, my blood pressure will get pretty low.

    Anything that is high on the glycemic index is out because it spikes insulin. Keeping blood glucose low, and insulin low is the point of keto. Therefore, fruits, for the most part, are out. Especially fruits high in fructose.

    One very cool thing I've noticed when I'm in ketosis is that I do not need to feed during long rides. Ketones are a much more stable fuel source, and do not get depleted as quickly as glycogen. I still carry gels, but I haven't used them for myself in a couple of years. It's mostly for emergency situations, or for other riders. On the flip side, I do carry a small container of salt, and put 0 carb electrolyte powder in my water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    I was actually focusing more on fruits and vegetables with their naturally occurring carbs. I'm sure you didn't cut them completely out of your diet but cutting back could still deprive your body of important nutrients it needs. So that's why I ask, do you take a multi-vitamin? Rely on low carb fruits and veggies? Another source?
    Personally, I've moved into carnivory, and eat no fruit, and very few vegetables. The funny thing about carbs is that they increase your requirements for various nutrients. If you cut out the carbs, you don't need anywhere near the RDA levels, which aren't based in science anyhow. I used to take a multi-vitamin while a vegetarian, but didn't need them as much with keto, and have almost no need for them now with carnivory.

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    I'm glad it works for you, it seems a bit extreme to me but I trust you've done your research and are experiencing some health benefits so who am I to judge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Personally, I've moved into carnivory, and eat no fruit, and very few vegetables. The funny thing about carbs is that they increase your requirements for various nutrients. If you cut out the carbs, you don't need anywhere near the RDA levels, which aren't based in science anyhow. I used to take a multi-vitamin while a vegetarian, but didn't need them as much with keto, and have almost no need for them now with carnivory.
    Do you eat a lot of organ meats as well? Nose to tail? I'm contemplating that route, but not sure how much I'll like the organs.

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  20. #20
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    For me, keto helped me lose weight when I was a fat ass. More than a decade later, Iím training/riding/racing mtb & need all the (healthy) carbs I can get in my normal diet & sucrose/fructose 1:1 at about 80 grams carb/hour fuels my riding. On average, 70% of my daily calories comes from carbohydrate. Keto doesnít work for high intensity riding. I felt lousy riding at a leisurely pace while in keto. Maybe had I slowed down more, it wouldíve been ok but if you want performance on the bike, carbs are your friend.

    *note to keto fans -Iím not here to argue for dozens of posts with you, just sharing my opinion & what I know to work for me & the vast majority of cyclists riding at high intensity levels. You may be an outlier & can ride for hours at 90% ftp with nothing for fuel but youíre body fat but I seriously doubt it*

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    Quote Originally Posted by TMWTP View Post
    Do you eat a lot of organ meats as well? Nose to tail? I'm contemplating that route, but not sure how much I'll like the organs.

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    The only organ meat I eat is liver via liverwurst once a day. I don't know that it's really of much benefit, but I enjoy it. I do eat a lot of eggs which I think is far more important nutritionally.

    I should probably clarify that "carnivory" is defined as 70% or more of your diet from animal products. I'm going deep at 90-95% this month, but expect to start adding some fresh fruit and more veg this summer as a seasonal variation of sorts, which I guess might be more paleo, but I'll still maintain at least 70% animal based, and I still try to stay in ketosis through high fat content and intermittent fasting, riding while in a fasted state, etc.

    It's pretty clear that if you want to be fast, and ride at a high intensity level, consuming carbs during your ride is essential. But don't confuse fast with healthy. You can follow a keto diet and add carbs for high intensity rides/races though, and I'm just starting to research that. There's a guy named Zach Bitter who seems to be at the leading edge of that stuff. While not race pace fast, I do feel great when riding long distances in a fasted state, often experiencing a feeling euphoria that I never experienced while on carbs. Riding 4-8 hours with nothing but water and electrolytes and feeling great became the norm once I became fat adapted.


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    You make a great point that seems to concur with some of my research. 90% of ftp is pretty hard to maintain on keto. Although more long-term research needs to be done at the highest levels of endurance athletes. In my personal experience, maximum sustainable power has increased slowly with improved fitness and decreased weight, but I'm pushing 50, and have no desire to race ever again. I'm not the guy going for KOMs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    The only organ meat I eat is liver via liverwurst once a day. I don't know that it's really of much benefit, but I enjoy it. I do eat a lot of eggs which I think is far more important nutritionally.

    I should probably clarify that "carnivory" is defined as 70% or more of your diet from animal products. I'm going deep at 90-95% this month, but expect to start adding some fresh fruit and more veg this summer as a seasonal variation of sorts, which I guess might be more paleo, but I'll still maintain at least 70% animal based, and I still try to stay in ketosis through high fat content and intermittent fasting, riding while in a fasted state, etc.

    It's pretty clear that if you want to be fast, and ride at a high intensity level, consuming carbs during your ride is essential. But don't confuse fast with healthy. You can follow a keto diet and add carbs for high intensity rides/races though, and I'm just starting to research that. There's a guy named Zach Bitter who seems to be at the leading edge of that stuff. While not race pace fast, I do feel great when riding long distances in a fasted state, often experiencing a feeling euphoria that I never experienced while on carbs. Riding 4-8 hours with nothing but water and electrolytes and feeling great became the norm once I became fat adapted.


    .
    Sounds like 'targeted keto.' That's what I'm going to try if I can get down to my goal weight.

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  24. #24
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    Keto diet a fad?

    When I get to goal weight I add healthy carbs if Iím working out intensely. Most pro athletes, ie ones that are able to live comfortably on a proís salary are not on pure keto diets. Letís face it, thatís what separates the men and the women from the boys and the girls. Glucose is a more efficient energy source. Most, myself included, overindulge with carbs.


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    I'm not going to tell anyone else what to eat, so if keto works for you, great.

    My opinion is that keto is an extreme diet, and the long-term effects are unknown. It seems like it requires significant lifestyle changes to implement, and it also seems to compromise athletic performance at the top end. It seems unlikely to be a good long-term solution for most, though it'll surely work for some.

    Interestingly there is lots of compelling evidence that using ketones for fuel is good for you, but even more evidence that it's metabolic plasticity that should be the goal. This is the idea behind intermittent fasting: get into ketogenesis during fasting, then fuel with carbs upon breaking the fast to get back out. That approach seems easier to live with as an athlete (fuel with carbs before/during rides) and probably consistent with human evolution: get hungry, kill a mammoth or find a fruit tree, get fed.

    My approach is some intermittent fasting, and Mediterranean-type diet with plenty of veggies, most fat coming from olive oil and nuts, protein from veggies, fish and poultry. Honestly I think the most important thing you can do for long-term health is learn to cook good food from whole ingredients.

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    For what its worth, here's an article from Bicycling and it is on their list.

    5 Fad Diets to Ditch in 2020
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    For what its worth, here's an article from Bicycling and it is on their list.

    5 Fad Diets to Ditch in 2020
    Interesting they didn't have any actual recommendations for diet, and pretty much equated the quality of the diets to anaerobic performance, and/or short duration competition. Smells of click-bait to me.

    As I've said before, just because it's good for racing, doesn't mean it's good for your overall health. Top fuel cars run really fast on nitro methane, but not for long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TMWTP View Post
    Almost all diseases can be linked to inflammation.
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    Um, no. Just no.

    Health (and the world in general) is far far too complex for single "Magic Bullet" solutions or causes.

    And while many things (be sure as heck not all diseases) may have inflammation, it's often because your body is doing that in response to the issue. If I get a bump on the noggin and it swells, it ain't the inflammation that's the problem. It's the falling on my head that's the problem.

    And pushing such bad info can in fact be dangerous when people ingore or avoid getting real treatments.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Interesting they didn't have any actual recommendations for diet, and pretty much equated the quality of the diets to anaerobic performance, and/or short duration competition. Smells of click-bait to me.

    As I've said before, just because it's good for racing, doesn't mean it's good for your overall health. Top fuel cars run really fast on nitro methane, but not for long.
    If youíre riding any higher in your power or HR range than mid/upper zone 2, your best source of fuel will be carbohydrate. Itís really not up for debate. To your point, I havenít hit anaerobic power levels since October & ive changed my diet to include 70% carbohydrate 15% protein 15% fat daily (or there about). Iím able to train/ride harder, im getting stronger & faster, Iím losing weight & my body fat is decreasing. Iím healthier than Iíve ever been. I have energy for my workouts & the RPE is lower if Iím properly fueled with carbs.

    Iíve done the keto thing to lose weight initially & it was great to help me shed pounds quickly when I was morbidly obese but those days are gone & there is no way that diet would support the riding Iím doing now. If I were walking or jogging or even riding at a jogging pace -yes, I could burn fat to fuel my rides but I donít know anyone who actually rides like that. But if you can/do, thatís great but Iíd wager youíd perform better with more carbohydrate as fuel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Interesting they didn't have any actual recommendations for diet, and pretty much equated the quality of the diets to anaerobic performance, and/or short duration competition. Smells of click-bait to me.

    As I've said before, just because it's good for racing, doesn't mean it's good for your overall health. Top fuel cars run really fast on nitro methane, but not for long.
    Ok, try this:

    https://health.usnews.com/best-diet/best-diets-overall

    Spoiler alert:

    Keto came in 34th (out of 35) for Best Diets Overall, tied for 3rd for Best Fast Weight-Loss Diets and dead last in Best Diets for Healthy Eating.

    Why would diets that are considered good at helping drop weight quickly be ranked so badly overall?

    ďThe Ďbestí way to lose weight fast is to do something very silly, unsustainable and arguably irresponsible. Itís not truly best ó just fast,Ē said Katz, who is the president of the True Health Initiative, a non-profit organization dedicated to health promotion and disease prevention

    ďMany things that are truly bad for health can cause short-term weight loss,Ē Katz said. ďThe most effective diets for Ďfastí weight loss impose severe restrictions that cannot be maintained and would not be compatible with health if they were.Ē

    Thatís because quick weight loss diets usually emphasize some drastic cut in nutrients or the elimination of an entire food group that canít be maintained over time. When the diet stops, the weight comes back, often at higher levels than at the start of the diet. Itís the bodyís response to ďyo-yoĒ dieting, studies show.

    ďSpending your life weight-obsessed, and going on and off diets, is no way to live,Ē Katz said. ďOne of the things we hope to convey to the American public is that itís time to grow up about diet and give it more respect.

    ďGrown-ups donít generally expect to Ďget rich fast;í they understand the need to work, over time,Ē Katz continued. ďBut everyone thinks there is some magic formula they havenít tried yet for rapid weight loss. The consensus of the U.S. News judges is a resounding rebuke of that silly idea.Ē


    https://fox4kc.com/2020/01/02/best-a...one-near-last/
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    Quote Originally Posted by redwarrior View Post
    If youíre riding any higher in your power or HR range than mid/upper zone 2, your best source of fuel will be carbohydrate. Itís really not up for debate. To your point, I havenít hit anaerobic power levels since October & ive changed my diet to include 70% carbohydrate 15% protein 15% fat daily (or there about). Iím able to train/ride harder, im getting stronger & faster, Iím losing weight & my body fat is decreasing. Iím healthier than Iíve ever been. I have energy for my workouts & the RPE is lower if Iím properly fueled with carbs.

    Iíve done the keto thing to lose weight initially & it was great to help me shed pounds quickly when I was morbidly obese but those days are gone & there is no way that diet would support the riding Iím doing now. If I were walking or jogging or even riding at a jogging pace -yes, I could burn fat to fuel my rides but I donít know anyone who actually rides like that. But if you can/do, thatís great but Iíd wager youíd perform better with more carbohydrate as fuel.
    well yeah, I'm not arguing otherwise, but that doesn't make diets that don't support high intensity exercise "bad", or a "fad".

    Personally, I'm more focused on endurance riding now, and anything over 3 hours was a death march in the past on carbs. Now I can ride 8+ hours on nothing but water and feel great doing it. Am I fast? I don't know or care, but faster than the HCLF guy passed out on the side of the trail half way through the ride because he ran out of food. For me, "performing better" is defined by the ability to ride further, and feel good doing it. Being free from having to eat/drink X amount of carbs per hour, etc. and speed is kind of irrelevant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Ok, try this:

    https://health.usnews.com/best-diet/best-diets-overall

    Spoiler alert:

    Keto came in 34th (out of 35) for Best Diets Overall, tied for 3rd for Best Fast Weight-Loss Diets and dead last in Best Diets for Healthy Eating.

    Why would diets that are considered good at helping drop weight quickly be ranked so badly overall?

    ďThe Ďbestí way to lose weight fast is to do something very silly, unsustainable and arguably irresponsible. Itís not truly best ó just fast,Ē said Katz, who is the president of the True Health Initiative, a non-profit organization dedicated to health promotion and disease prevention

    ďMany things that are truly bad for health can cause short-term weight loss,Ē Katz said. ďThe most effective diets for Ďfastí weight loss impose severe restrictions that cannot be maintained and would not be compatible with health if they were.Ē

    Thatís because quick weight loss diets usually emphasize some drastic cut in nutrients or the elimination of an entire food group that canít be maintained over time. When the diet stops, the weight comes back, often at higher levels than at the start of the diet. Itís the bodyís response to ďyo-yoĒ dieting, studies show.

    ďSpending your life weight-obsessed, and going on and off diets, is no way to live,Ē Katz said. ďOne of the things we hope to convey to the American public is that itís time to grow up about diet and give it more respect.

    ďGrown-ups donít generally expect to Ďget rich fast;í they understand the need to work, over time,Ē Katz continued. ďBut everyone thinks there is some magic formula they havenít tried yet for rapid weight loss. The consensus of the U.S. News judges is a resounding rebuke of that silly idea.Ē


    https://fox4kc.com/2020/01/02/best-a...one-near-last/
    yes, there's plenty of people out there who have been making a living for a very long time by towing the party line, and now they're threatened, so they're lashing out. The reality is that this isn't a "diet" for most people, it's a way of eating that most of use will stick with for the rest of our lives. People can stick with it forever because they don't feel starved. That's what makes it sustainable. I love the old chestnut about how people will gain weight back when they "get off the diet". Well yeah, when you go back to eating garbage, what do you expect? What these critics don't know is that the cravings for all that crap go away. All the hysteria about it being bad in the long term, damaging your health, etc. has been proven false. People are thriving on HFLC diets, and that's a problem for a lot of people who have been making a lot of money pushing garbage food, and the drugs, and treatments for the conditions they create.

    No amount of propaganda from anyone is going to change the mind of people like myself who's health has improved beyond belief by switching to a HFLC way of eating. No more joint pain, no more tooth decay, no more depression or manic mood swings, no more dependence on constant feeding, better sleep, and the list goes on.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    ÖI don't plan to ever go back to eating manufactured processed crap that makes me sick ever again.
    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    yes, there's plenty of people out there who have been making a living for a very long time by towing the party line, and now they're threatened, so they're lashing out. The reality is that this isn't a "diet" for most people, it's a way of eating that most of use will stick with for the rest of our lives. People can stick with it forever because they don't feel starved. That's what makes it sustainable. I love the old chestnut about how people will gain weight back when they "get off the diet". Well yeah, when you go back to eating garbage, what do you expect? What these critics don't know is that the cravings for all that crap go away. All the hysteria about it being bad in the long term, damaging your health, etc. has been proven false. People are thriving on HFLC diets, and that's a problem for a lot of people who have been making a lot of money pushing garbage food, and the drugs, and treatments for the conditions they create.

    No amount of propaganda from anyone is going to change the mind of people like myself who's health has improved beyond belief by switching to a HFLC way of eating. No more joint pain, no more tooth decay, no more depression or manic mood swings, no more dependence on constant feeding, better sleep, and the list goes on.
    The first quote above is where your issues were from. So be careful of cause and correlation. But a lot of people are going to believe what they want to believe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    The first quote above is where your issues were from. So be careful of cause and correlation. But a lot of people are going to believe what they want to believe.
    The "processed crap" I was eating was "healthy" according to the medical establishment of the past 50 years, I was vegetarian for 13 years, vegan for a short time after that, and yes I agree that following their advise was the source of my problems.

    High carb works great, for a while. Eventually, insulin resistance and inflammation will catch up with anyone eating that way.

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    I'm on a See Food Diet.

    Based on my FTP*, W/Kg, how long I can sustain my power numbers, my weight, my race results, my stoke levels, I think I choose the right diet for me.

    *Haven't tested in about a year, don't care anymore, I know where I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    The "processed crap" I was eating was "healthy" according to the medical establishment of the past 50 years, I was vegetarian for 13 years, vegan for a short time after that, and yes I agree that following their advise was the source of my problems.

    High carb works great, for a while. Eventually, insulin resistance and inflammation will catch up with anyone eating that way.
    Ok, I'll bite: what were you eating? The fruits and vegetables my wife buys and that we grow aren't processed.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

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    The older diets focused on caloric restriction, and elimination of all fats. This resulted in people eating lean protein and processed ďlow calorieĒ marketed garbage.

    A pure ketosis diet is NOT ideal. It is for quick weight loss and helping to move past a plateau which the final few pounds remain.

    Ideally, one should be aware of caloric intake. If youíre fat, you are taking in too many calories. Itís that simple. Thereís psychosocial and genetic issues that can play a huge part, but at the end of the day I eat too much.

    Even Dr. Akins would recommend his diet as a last resort and even then it recommends transitioning into a ketogenic diet.




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    For one to live on a ketogenic diet. You need to look at your fat sources. If most come from animal fat. You need to eat grass feed, or wild caught. Animals feed on corn and soy have different fat structures and types of fat than if they ate what they would normally.

    One should stay away from corn,soy,conola oils and stick with nuts,avacodo, olive and coconut oils.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    The only organ meat I eat is liver via liverwurst once a day. I don't know that it's really of much benefit, but I enjoy it. I do eat a lot of eggs which I think is far more important nutritionally.

    I should probably clarify that "carnivory" is defined as 70% or more of your diet from animal products. I'm going deep at 90-95% this month, but expect to start adding some fresh fruit and more veg this summer as a seasonal variation of sorts, which I guess might be more paleo, but I'll still maintain at least 70% animal based, and I still try to stay in ketosis through high fat content and intermittent fasting, riding while in a fasted state, etc.
    I didn't know carnivore means 70% from animal. but makes sense since carnivore animals also eat some plants. When you say "animal product", do you exclude dairy? I would assume a carnivore (like an wolf) would eat meat and other natural animal products, not dairy.

    I doubt liverwurst contains much liver, but for sure a lot of unhealthy stuff. Yes, it is very tasty, though. I eat organic grass feed beef liver weekly. Liver tastes much different than liverwurst. It gives me a lot of minerals and vitamins. the Inuit and other carnivore humans eat fresh hunted liver for that reason.

    non-starchy vegetables, nuts (inc. avocado), eggs, salmon, shelfish, liver give you all the nutrients you need.

    Corn, wheat (and processed at that) don't contain necessary nutrients.
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    This article - https://physiqonomics.com/how-low-carb-diets-work/ - does a good job of explaining the dynamics.

    I would argue that diets aren't magic...the magic is in establishing new patterns of behavior which can be very tricky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    No one should ever cite the USN&WR diet list as an authoritative source for anything, ever. They've been recycling the list (and most of the copy) for years and years. It's pure clickbait trash, as evidenced by the fact that every year the "worst" diet is that year's most popular fad diet. At the same time, stupid BS like Jenny Craig, Nutrisystem, SlimFast (yes, SlimFast is still a thing, somehow) and The Biggest Loser Diet (because you should definitely be following the diet used on a show that hasn't been on the air since 2016 and follow-up studies showed >90% of contestants regained all the weight they lost and often ended up even heavier) maintain mid-pack rankings every year.

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    I started keto a year ago because I got to a weight I wasnít happy with. The following spring I started mountain biking again. A lot. In a little over a year Iíve lost over 100 pounds. I didnít know any loss of power to my cycling, because I didnít have a fitness base to go off of beforehand. I do know that eating keto, I can ride longer than my riding buddies that do high carb without needing to fuel mid ride. I also know that I can ride fasted if need be, and still keep up just fine. Most of these guys have been riding MTB for 10-20 years. Theyíre all still faster than me on the downhill portions (Iím still working on my descending confidence), but I can catch and pass them on the climbs. Keto ya been fantastic for me. I donít see it not being sustainable in the long term. I donít think of it as a diet, I think of it as a lifestyle change. Anytime you go back to the lifestyle that got you to where you were, you run the risk of ending back up there. So sure, any diet can be ďterribleĒ or the worst diet ever. If you lose a bunch of weight, then go back to the habits that caused you to gain the weight in the first place, youíre going to put it all back on. Also, what works for me might not work for you, and thatís ok. We are all biologically different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silentG View Post
    This article - https://physiqonomics.com/how-low-carb-diets-work/ - does a good job of explaining the dynamics.

    I would argue that diets aren't magic...the magic is in establishing new patterns of behavior which can be very tricky.
    Totally wrong, Keto is NOT a high protein diet. Moderate protein and not the 30% protein the article you linked suggests. The Atkins diet was a bit on the higher protein side, but Keto is high fat.

    Just that single very obvious failure that they base their whole hypothesis on shows me how valid that article is.

    One can argue for or against certain lifestyles, but please stay with facts what that lifestyle actually is. This is like someone saying they don't like road bikes because rear suspension is too heavy (just to stay with a bike topic on a bike forum :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Ok, I'll bite: what were you eating? The fruits and vegetables my wife buys and that we grow aren't processed.
    Processed garbage in for me was bread, cereal, oatmeal, pasta, crackers, chips, low fat or fat free dairy, almond milk, margarine, corn/seed oils, tofu, imitation meat products, etc.

    It was all "healthy" according the medical establishment. The reason I went vegetarian is because my doctor told me I needed to do something about my cholesterol. My cholesterol didn't improve, my blood pressure was creeping ever higher, and my weight was creeping up year after year, and they told me "that's just part of getting old". Then a friend of mine who's a little older than me, and had been "just getting old" too went keto and turned it all around inside of a year, so I gave it a shot, and it's been miraculous. All health markers have improved, and I feel better than I have in years....maybe better than ever if you include mental health and endurance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
    I didn't know carnivore means 70% from animal. but makes sense since carnivore animals also eat some plants. When you say "animal product", do you exclude dairy? I would assume a carnivore (like an wolf) would eat meat and other natural animal products, not dairy.

    I doubt liverwurst contains much liver, but for sure a lot of unhealthy stuff. Yes, it is very tasty, though. I eat organic grass feed beef liver weekly. Liver tastes much different than liverwurst. It gives me a lot of minerals and vitamins. the Inuit and other carnivore humans eat fresh hunted liver for that reason.

    non-starchy vegetables, nuts (inc. avocado), eggs, salmon, shelfish, liver give you all the nutrients you need.

    Corn, wheat (and processed at that) don't contain necessary nutrients.
    Yes, I include dairy. There are way too many zealots that come out of the woodwork when you use a term like carnivore or vegan. I recently quit a carnivore group because of the people taking it to the extreme. I call them "meat vegans". Thinking I just need to start saying "meat based" or something.

    A typical day for me is as follows:
    Breakfast: coffee, black.
    Lunch: eggs fried in bacon fat, cheese, salt, pepper, and meat
    Snack: hot dog and liverwurst with mustard or shrimp/salmon
    Dinner: Some sort of meat dish with a side of green vegetables.

    As for the liverwurst I eat the first ingredient is liver. Yes, there are some preservatives, etc. but enough to worry about. I eat hot dogs and bacon too, both of which have been demonized by fake studies, and aren't of any concern either.

    There haven't been any studies that show grass fed has any benefit over traditionally raised livestock, but I do still buy it from time to time. I always buy pasture raised eggs though because there really is a difference there. I also get plenty of salmon, shrimp, etc. to cover my nutrients. I had been eating a ton of nuts, but have cut that down significantly lately.

    And let's not forget that the RDA of vitamins and minerals isn't based in science. They were established based on people's opinions, nothing else. There are people walking around who eat nothing but beef, salt, and water without any deficiencies or need for supplementation. The same can't be said for vegans.

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    I think you are missing the point there.

    Horses for courses and all that. If something works for someone it works but being dogmatic about the one true way seems a bit silly.

    Silly is good though at times so silly away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Processed garbage in for me was bread, cereal, oatmeal, pasta, crackers, chips, low fat or fat free dairy, almond milk, margarine, corn/seed oils, tofu, imitation meat products, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    A typical day for me is as follows:
    Breakfast: coffee, black.
    Lunch: eggs fried in bacon fat, cheese, salt, pepper, and meat
    Snack: hot dog and liverwurst with mustard or shrimp/salmon

    Why demonize "processed garbage" in one post and then praise processed food in the next? Fake studies? To what end?
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Why demonize "processed garbage" in one post and then praise processed food in the next? Fake studies? To what end?
    None of what I listed in the second post is "processed garbage", it's "health food".

    Fake studies.....you can do your own research, but the Cliff's notes are that most of the studies everyone accepted as fact for the past 50 years were written by people (Ancel Keys, etc.) who started with an answer, and then manipulated the data to "prove" their theory. Many authors of studies demonizing meat, animal fats, nitrates, etc. were also vegans and/or Seventh Day Adventists.


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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    None of what I listed in the second post is "processed garbage", it's "health food".

    Hot dogs are health food? Damn, no wonder I'm so sickly, I've been avoiding those things for years!

    Many recent and exhaustive studies have found processed meat to be carcinogenic, evidence seems pretty solid and I really don't think it's a conspiracy but who knows? I guess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    None of what I listed in the second post is "processed garbage", it's "health food".

    Fake studies.....you can do your own research, but the Cliff's notes are that most of the studies everyone accepted as fact for the past 50 years were written by people (Ancel Keys, etc.) who started with an answer, and then manipulated the data to "prove" their theory. Many authors of studies demonizing meat, animal fats, nitrates, etc. were also vegans and/or Seventh Day Adventists.


    .
    I could not care less what you eat, knock yourself out. But...

    This is laughable. But I am a cancer researcher, and can absolutely confirm that processed meats and nitrates cause cancer. The World Health Organization categorizes processed and cured meats as a Class I carcinogen.

    Here's a rather unbiased study on the matter, out just last year:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30993317

    Here they just asked a large number of people (400,000+) what they ate, and followed up to confirm this with a large number of them (175,000). Then they tracked them for 5 years, looking for major adverse health outcomes and seeing whether they were correlated with diet. They found that those who consumed more red and processed meat had a higher rate of colorectal cancer, while those who consumed more fiber had a lower rate. They did not set out to test anything specific or "demonize" anything, they just looked at how people ate, whether they got cancer, and then looked for correlations. They found, for example, that high vs low consumption of fish, poultry, cheese, fruit, vegetables, tea and coffee were not associated with colorectal-cancer risk.

    This is my problem with keto, and indeed with any diet that excludes whole classes of macronutrients: there is just no long-term data on the outcomes. Maybe you feel great now, more power to you. But if I were eating what you're eating, and given all we know about diet and health, I would be worried about cancer and heart disease long term.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post
    I could not care less what you eat, knock yourself out. But...

    This is laughable. But I am a cancer researcher, and can absolutely confirm that processed meats and nitrates cause cancer. The World Health Organization categorizes processed and cured meats as a Class I carcinogen.

    Here's a rather unbiased study on the matter, out just last year:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30993317

    Here they just asked a large number of people (400,000+) what they ate, and followed up to confirm this with a large number of them (175,000). Then they tracked them for 5 years, looking for major adverse health outcomes and seeing whether they were correlated with diet. They found that those who consumed more red and processed meat had a higher rate of colorectal cancer, while those who consumed more fiber had a lower rate. They did not set out to test anything specific or "demonize" anything, they just looked at how people ate, whether they got cancer, and then looked for correlations. They found, for example, that high vs low consumption of fish, poultry, cheese, fruit, vegetables, tea and coffee were not associated with colorectal-cancer risk.

    This is my problem with keto, and indeed with any diet that excludes whole classes of macronutrients: there is just no long-term data on the outcomes. Maybe you feel great now, more power to you. But if I were eating what you're eating, and given all we know about diet and health, I would be worried about cancer and heart disease long term.
    Weak, biased, false, and epidemiological studies, claiming causation based on correlation. Your "increased risk" of getting cancer from eating red meat is less than one percent IF you believe their data was accurate and unbiased.

    What's laughable is that you continue to spew these lies and collect a paycheck in the process. You're part of the problem. Anyone who has been paying attention knows recent research has debunked the claims that nitrates and red meat cause cancer.





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    It's a conspiracy I tell ya, them crazy vegans are trying to take over the world!
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  53. #53
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    This thread needs to be nuked asap
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    Re-read the first line of my post. Eat all the hot dogs you can stomach dude, it's your ass (literally).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    This thread needs to be nuked asap
    Your post has been reported to the Seventh Day Adventists.
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy f View Post
    Your post has been reported to the Seventh Day Adventists.
    Interestingly 7th Day Adventists (who I gather mainly follow a veggie-heavy pescatarian Mediterranean-type diet?) live longer and have way lower rates of all kinds of chronic diseases than the general population. I didn't know about the Adventists' diet or these studies, which are pretty interesting. Thanks _CJ!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventist_Health_Studies

    Then again this is presumably part of the conspiracy, and YouTube Guy With A Dog Under His Arm is the only one who's telling it like it is.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post
    Interestingly 7th Day Adventists (who I gather mainly follow a veggie-heavy pescatarian Mediterranean-type diet?) live longer and have way lower rates of all kinds of chronic diseases than the general population. I didn't know about the Adventists' diet or these studies, which are pretty interesting. Thanks _CJ!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventist_Health_Studies

    Then again this is presumably part of the conspiracy, and YouTube Guy With A Dog Under His Arm is the only one who's telling it like it is.
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy f View Post
    I can't decide whether or not to report you.
    I don't know anything about the religious beliefs, but the Adventists seem to have the lifestyle side figured out. Live in SoCal, eat lots of salmon and avocados, live to be 100. Could be worse!

    So yeah sure, go ahead and throw me to the Adventists....

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post
    I don't know anything about the religious beliefs, but the Adventists seem to have the lifestyle side figured out. Live in SoCal, eat lots of salmon and avocados, live to be 100. Could be worse!

    So yeah sure, go ahead and throw me to the Adventists....
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Weak, biased, false, and epidemiological studies, claiming causation based on correlation. Your "increased risk" of getting cancer from eating red meat is less than one percent IF you believe their data was accurate and unbiased.

    What's laughable is that you continue to spew these lies and collect a paycheck in the process. You're part of the problem. Anyone who has been paying attention knows recent research has debunked the claims that nitrates and red meat cause cancer.





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    RESULTS: During an average of 5.7 years of follow-up, 2609 cases of colorectal cancer occurred. Participants who reported consuming an average of 76 g/day of red and processed meat compared with 21 g/day had a 20% [95% confidence interval (CI): 4-37] higher risk of colorectal cancer. Participants in the highest fifth of intake of fibre from bread and breakfast cereals had a 14% (95% CI: 2-24) lower risk of colorectal cancer. Alcohol was associated with an 8% (95% CI: 4-12) higher risk per 10 g/day higher intake. Fish, poultry, cheese, fruit, vegetables, tea and coffee were not associated with colorectal-cancer risk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post

    A typical day for me is as follows:
    Breakfast: coffee, black.
    Lunch: eggs fried in bacon fat, cheese, salt, pepper, and meat
    Snack: hot dog and liverwurst with mustard or shrimp/salmon
    Dinner: Some sort of meat dish with a side of green vegetables.

    As for the liverwurst I eat the first ingredient is liver. Yes, there are some preservatives, etc. but enough to worry about. I eat hot dogs and bacon too, both of which have been demonized by fake studies, and aren't of any concern either.
    I think we've arrived at a curious place where this diet of healthy, natural, whole foods that humans have eaten for thousands of years (we've been eating meat for over 2 million years) is considered the fad. I've eaten very similar to this for the past 6 years after 30 years of vegetarianism and there's no way I'd go back. I also fell for the orthodoxy of low fat, meat is bad, 'healthy' whole grains are good, etc. and it absolutely did not end well. I get pastured eggs from my backyard chickens, grass fed beef, veggies, raw milk, pastured chicken from local farmers all within a 12 mile radius of my house. No more bread, pasta, soy burgers, horrid lentil loafs, etc. Wish I'd never gone down that rabbit hole all those years ago but we just didn't have the same kind of access to information back then that we have now.

    This recent study exonerates red meat, even processed meat: https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2...vQz_Pkw3cQB7tY

    I know a vegan who died of colon cancer. She never got a colonoscopy because she believed the studies that claimed only meat eaters got colon cancer. It was a terrible tragedy. I have a vegetarian friend who's an athlete in his 50s and just had a cancer scare and his health is terrible in general. I could go on but I won't because it makes me sad to see my friends suffering for ideology.

    I don't even know where to start with the Adventists. Many of them don't actually follow vegetarian diets though they claim to. Their beliefs are based on religious ideology, not what's best for human health. The objection to meat is that it causes men to be lustful and masturbate. Seriously, I can't make this stuff up. From there they twist and contort reality through poor 'studies' to fit their religious beliefs.

    I also don't care what other people eat. More meat for me. I saw a guy on Facebook urging people to eat Impossible Burgers at Burger King, 'C'mon you guys, you gotta try these at least once. Glyphosate aside.' If folks want to eat heavily processed soy laced with carcinogens, knock yourselves out. But it's sad when these foods are normalized and the foods of our ancestors, foods that we evolved eating, are now considered the fad.

  62. #62
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    I'm all for a locally produced, minimally processed approach to eating but I don't have a weight or health issue that has me wanting to try something like dramatically limiting carbohydrate intake. I love quality meat, eggs, and whole milk dairy. Sausages made by a few local butchers, too. But I also love the variety of local ice creams, breads, pies, and beer. I want onions and carrots in my braised short ribs and I want it served over gnocchi.

    Now i'm going to contradict myself regarding processed foods: I started using Tailwind and/or EFS on my rides instead of food last year. I previously used plain water and trail mix or some other mix of nuts and dates or figs on my rides. My first ride with Tailwind, I took 45 minutes off of what was previously a 3.5 hour ride so I've stuck with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post
    I could not care less what you eat, knock yourself out. But...

    This is laughable. But I am a cancer researcher, and can absolutely confirm that processed meats and nitrates cause cancer. The World Health Organization categorizes processed and cured meats as a Class I carcinogen.

    Here's a rather unbiased study on the matter, out just last year:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30993317

    Here they just asked a large number of people (400,000+) what they ate, and followed up to confirm this with a large number of them (175,000). Then they tracked them for 5 years, looking for major adverse health outcomes and seeing whether they were correlated with diet. They found that those who consumed more red and processed meat had a higher rate of colorectal cancer, while those who consumed more fiber had a lower rate. They did not set out to test anything specific or "demonize" anything, they just looked at how people ate, whether they got cancer, and then looked for correlations. They found, for example, that high vs low consumption of fish, poultry, cheese, fruit, vegetables, tea and coffee were not associated with colorectal-cancer risk.

    This is my problem with keto, and indeed with any diet that excludes whole classes of macronutrients: there is just no long-term data on the outcomes. Maybe you feel great now, more power to you. But if I were eating what you're eating, and given all we know about diet and health, I would be worried about cancer and heart disease long term.
    Thanks for the information. Like with all studies, probably something to it.
    But the problem with many food studies is they are self-reported (do you know off-hand if you ate 76g meat the last 5 years?) and also only look at one cancer. What about the other 1000 civilization diseases? The study also seemed to assume processed meat (i assume stable grocery meat, lunch meat etc.). I bet fresh organic grass fed meat will be better than Oskar Mayer hot dogs.

    There also is a difference to people that eat cheap carbs and meat, or people that eat healthy food with meat.

    I guess whatever diet one follows, the less processed and the fewer ingredients the better. I like to hear what unprocessed foods a carb eater could eat besides fruit and vegetables? Seems most carb foods are highly processed (bread, noodles, pizza, bleached rice which on its own wouldn't taste). Basically leaves potatoes and beans, both only can be eaten cooked.
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    I'm all in for local and minimally processed. Citing hot dogs and bacon as health foods not so much.

    The so-called "blue zones," areas like Osaka and Sardinia where people tend to have significantly longer "healthspans" (i.e. remain functional well into old age) have lots of dietary commonalities. Fruits, veggies, whole grains, lean meats, nuts, all that stuff we all know is probably good for us. But none of them feature a ton of red meat, and certainly no processed stuff.

    They also generally feature folks with good body composition (i.e. non-obese), and obesity is much less healthy overall than just about any dietary component. So if paleo or keto helps you lose weight and keep it off, that's great and it probably makes sense. But it may be a less-unhealthy option rather than a really healthy on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
    Thanks for the information. Like with all studies, probably something to it.
    But the problem with many food studies is they are self-reported (do you know off-hand if you ate 76g meat the last 5 years?) and also only look at one cancer. What about the other 1000 civilization diseases? The study also seemed to assume processed meat (i assume stable grocery meat, lunch meat etc.). I bet fresh organic grass fed meat will be better than Oskar Mayer hot dogs.

    There also is a difference to people that eat cheap carbs and meat, or people that eat healthy food with meat.

    I guess whatever diet one follows, the less processed and the fewer ingredients the better. I like to hear what unprocessed foods a carb eater could eat besides fruit and vegetables? Seems most carb foods are highly processed (bread, noodles, pizza, bleached rice which on its own wouldn't taste). Basically leaves potatoes and beans, both only can be eaten cooked.
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    Iíve never forced my body into a ketogenic status from a carb restricted diet, but I do understand that it works for some. Iím also only 160# and have been at that weight most of my life. Strava shows I rode 2027miles in 2019 and I always get some functional strength training done in between rides. Iím very conscious of my diet, avoid fats,sugars,most processed foods and alcohol. As much as possible I drink tons of water, eats as many veggies as possible, I eat grilled fish and eggs too. I eat brown rice, and potatoes as carbs but never eat much.
    I understand ketogenic diets work and why people are motivated to remain on them. I would just be concerned about the long term effects on my body, but to each his own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post
    I'm all in for local and minimally processed. Citing hot dogs and bacon as health foods not so much.

    The so-called "blue zones," areas like Osaka and Sardinia where people tend to have significantly longer "healthspans" (i.e. remain functional well into old age) have lots of dietary commonalities. Fruits, veggies, whole grains, lean meats, nuts, all that stuff we all know is probably good for us. But none of them feature a ton of red meat, and certainly no processed stuff.

    They also generally feature folks with good body composition (i.e. non-obese), and obesity is much less healthy overall than just about any dietary component. So if paleo or keto helps you lose weight and keep it off, that's great and it probably makes sense. But it may be a less-unhealthy option rather than a really healthy on.
    You know what else the "blue zones" have in common? Poor record keeping and fraud. The claims of their diet leading to long life are totally bogus.

    https://www.livescience.com/oldest-p...be-so-old.html

    And let's not overlook the study that showed the people of Okinawa eating a mostly plant based diet and living longer has been proven false too. That study was done in 1949, right after we decimated their population, and the animals they ate on a regular basis. Once recovered from war, they resumed a diet high in meat, and low in carb heavy processed food.


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    Quote Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
    There also is a difference to people that eat cheap carbs and meat, or people that eat healthy food with meat.
    This.

    Virtually all studies that link meat consumption with health problems ignore what else people are eating. 2oz of meat, plus a bunch of bread, cereal, pasta, ice cream, donuts, crackers, various things fried in processed oils......but yeah, let's blame the meat.

    To date, there have been no studies of people who eat a meat heavy diet without all the standard American diet (SAD) garbage, but that's about to change.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtnDogs View Post
    I think we've arrived at a curious place where this diet of healthy, natural, whole foods that humans have eaten for thousands of years (we've been eating meat for over 2 million years) is considered the fad.
    I am neither keto (a 15# Costco bag of Yukon Golds rarely lasts me more than two weeks) nor vegetarian/vegan (normally eat some meat at almost every meal), but I follow Michael Greger's content a lot because he post some interesting stuff and we actually agree on more than we disagree (namely, that whole foods=healthy). One of his big things is that nutrients are always better gotten from foods than supplements...except for critically important animal-only nutrients like B12 and DHA, which you should get from supplements. What?

    Obviously, the SAD is quite unhealthy. If meat was so unhealthy, a meatless SAD diet should result in less obesity and chronic disease, but it doesn't. There was a huge study published in the BMJ last year (https://www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l4897.full.pdf) where over 48,000 participants were tracked for almost 20 years. What did they find?

    "We saw no significant differences between diet groups [meat eaters and vegetarians] for the risk of acute myocardial infarction or ischaemic stroke."

    Nor was this a new finding. You can watch Greger himself explain the same phenomenon back in 2003: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7KeRwdIH04

    But his conclusion is that you have to eat a whole-food vegan diet to see the benefits. It's a 1-hour clinic in the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

    Meat/no meat is a false dichotomy. Eat whole foods, done. Eat vegetarian/vegan if you'd like, but if you do please supplement with B12 because not doing so can literally kill you (even Greger says this, as well as recommending supplemental DHA).

    Quote Originally Posted by andy f View Post
    Now i'm going to contradict myself regarding processed foods: I started using Tailwind and/or EFS on my rides instead of food last year. I previously used plain water and trail mix or some other mix of nuts and dates or figs on my rides. My first ride with Tailwind, I took 45 minutes off of what was previously a 3.5 hour ride so I've stuck with it.
    The rules are different for actively fueling endurance sports, that's when you *want* processed foods that digest rapidly. That said, have you ever read the ingredients of Tailwind? It's little more than dextrose powder, salt, flavorings, and pixie dust quantities of K/Mg/Ca. You can easily mix up your own for pennies on the dollar (though if you'd rather pay the premium for the convenience, by all means, it's your money).

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    Quote Originally Posted by RMCDan View Post
    The rules are different for actively fueling endurance sports, that's when you *want* processed foods that digest rapidly. That said, have you ever read the ingredients of Tailwind? It's little more than dextrose powder, salt, flavorings, and pixie dust quantities of K/Mg/Ca. You can easily mix up your own for pennies on the dollar (though if you'd rather pay the premium for the convenience, by all means, it's your money).
    I'm aware but not motivated to bother putting the ingredients together myself. You'd think that a guy who makes his own wine from fresh grapes would be all over making his own energy drink, but no. Doesn't sound interesting to me. Wine making has a bunch of chemistry tasks and tools/toys to play with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post
    Fruits, veggies, whole grains, lean meats, nuts, all that stuff we all know is probably good for us.
    ...

    So if paleo or keto helps you lose weight and keep it off, that's great and it probably makes sense. But it may be a less-unhealthy option rather than a really healthy on.
    No, that's exactly my point, the foods you listed are the fad diet. Those foods are the less-unhealthy option. A bad combination of scientists with egos doing bad science and influence from the processed food industry has led us to reject the most nutrient dense, species appropriate food we have available to us. And all I can say about it is that I wish I'd worked that out for myself way sooner. I love science, good science, bring it on. But in the case of nutrition and public health, great grandma knew a lot better than the corporate shills in the white coats.

    We evolved and thrived on animal meat and especially animal fat. That is the normal diet, agriculture is the fad. And sadly it's what we're stuck with so we have to make the best of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtnDogs View Post

    We evolved and thrived on animal meat and especially animal fat. That is the normal diet, agriculture is the fad. And sadly it's what we're stuck with so we have to make the best of it.
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    We can do a survey of this blog. What are your diet habits and past history of body weights? Whatís your current body fat composition percentage now? Do you have hypertension, diabetes, osteoarthritis, high cholesterol or obesity? But that would be to invasive and inappropriate.
    We can agree to disagree on Specific diet choices and the values it provides, but we can easily see that obesity causing chronic health conditions is real. Body fat percentage is an easy way to reference if your body is healthy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    Jared Diamond has called the invention of agriculture "The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race": https://www.discovermagazine.com/pla...the-human-race

    and did so in 1999, long before the paleo diet became trendy. If you think you're smarter than Jared Diamond and have better credentials in anthropology, history and physiology, by all means, let's hear it. That human beings became markedly less healthy immediately following the adoption of agriculture, and did so independently at many different places and times across the globe, is settled fact in anthropology and not up for debate.

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    I don't think we should assume the diets of people who rarely lived past 35 is the best guideline for being healthy in your 60s and 70s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squeakymcgillicuddy View Post
    I don't think we should assume the diets of people who rarely lived past 35 is the best guideline for being healthy in your 60s and 70s.
    There was a lot of infant and toddler deaths included in that statistic. The truth is that most people who lived past the age of 7 had a very much normal lifespan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squeakymcgillicuddy View Post
    I don't think we should assume the diets of people who rarely lived past 35 is the best guideline for being healthy in your 60s and 70s.
    It's true that life expectancy at birth for hunter-gatherers was low. However, using life expectancy at birth as a proxy for their overall health and chronic disease burden constitutes felony abuse of statistics.

    From the link I posted, which you clearly didn't bother to read:

    One straight forward example of what paleopathologists have learned from skeletons concerns historical changes in height. Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of hunger-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5' 9'' for men, 5' 5'' for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height crashed, and by 3000 B. C. had reached a low of only 5' 3'' for men, 5' for women. By classical times heights were very slowly on the rise again, but modern Greeks and Turks have still not regained the average height of their distant ancestors.

    Another example of paleopathology at work is the study of Indian skeletons from burial mounds in the Illinois and Ohio river valleys. At Dickson Mounds, located near the confluence of the Spoon and Illinois rivers, archaeologists have excavated some 800 skeletons that paint a picture of the health changes that occurred when a hunter-gatherer culture gave way to intensive maize farming around A. D. 1150. Studies by George Armelagos and his colleagues then at the University of Massachusetts show these early farmers paid a price for their new-found livelihood. Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a theefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine, probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life expectancy at birth in the pre-agricultural community was about twenty-six years," says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."

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    Wiki has some good info on the topic:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fad_diet


    List of Fad Diets:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diets#Fad_diets
    (includes Keto)

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    Quote Originally Posted by RMCDan View Post
    "Life expectancy at birth in the pre-agricultural community was about twenty-six years," says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."
    Yeah, I'm not saying we go back to pre-sanitation farming communities subsisting almost entirely on a single crop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squeakymcgillicuddy View Post
    Yeah, I'm not saying we go back to pre-sanitation farming communities subsisting almost entirely on a single crop.
    I'll accept this as a tacit admission that your original statement that HGs "rarely lived past 35" is a disingenuous and misleading use of LEAB statistics.

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    The Department of the Internet will be shipping your trophy shortly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RMCDan View Post
    Jared Diamond has called the invention of agriculture "The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race": https://www.discovermagazine.com/pla...the-human-race

    and did so in 1999, long before the paleo diet became trendy. If you think you're smarter than Jared Diamond and have better credentials in anthropology, history and physiology, by all means, let's hear it. That human beings became markedly less healthy immediately following the adoption of agriculture, and did so independently at many different places and times across the globe, is settled fact in anthropology and not up for debate.
    Interesting article. Notice that he included the domestication of animals:

    "Our escape from this misery was facilitated only 10,000 years ago, when in different parts of the world people began to domesticate plants and animals. The agricultural revolution spread until today it's nearly universal and few tribes of hunter-gatherers survive."

    And the reasons this was a mistake:

    "First, hunter-gatherers enjoyed a varied diet, while early farmers obtained most of their food from one or a few starchy crops. The farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition,Ö Second, because of dependence on a limited number of crops, farmers ran the risk of starvation if one crop failed. Finally, the mere fact that agriculture encouraged people to clump together in crowded societies, many of which then carried on trade with other crowded societies, led to the spread of parasites and infectious disease."

    It would be interesting to know what would have happened if we had remained hunters and gatherers. How quickly would we have wiped out our food sources? Or I guess nature would have kept us in balance by wiping out many of us before we were completely able to do so. The article states that some scientist believe people turned to agriculture out of necessity:

    "The evidence suggests that the Indians at Dickson Mounds, like many other primitive peoples, took up farming not by choice but from necessity in order to feed their constantly growing numbers. "I don't think most hunger-gatherers farmed until they had to, and when they switched to farming they traded quality for quantity," says Mark Cohen of the State University of New York at Plattsburgh"

    I would be willing to bet that the author has not returned to a hunting and gathering lifestyle. But it is an interesting article.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    It would be interesting to know what would have happened if we had remained hunters and gatherers. How quickly would we have wiped out our food sources? Or I guess nature would have kept us in balance by wiping out many of us before we were completely able to do so.
    I tend to avoid dwelling on counterfactuals. It's certainly true that HGs did not live in some perfectly balanced harmony with their environments, that's a myth. Some did so more than others, but it's dangerous to generalize considering the enormous level of heterogeneity that existed.

    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    I would be willing to bet that the author has not returned to a hunting and gathering lifestyle.
    He certainly hasn't, nor does he argue that we could or should. The point is to dispel the myth that the adoption of agriculture was an unconditional good that universally improved peoples' lives, which it certainly did not. HGs generally enjoyed robust health and were not scraping out meager existences that led to deaths from malnutrition and exhaustion at 30. That was the life lived by the farmers than replaced them.

    I also find it fascinating that even modern HG groups like the Kalahari bushmen and Hadza, who live in quite marginal environments that no one else wanted, spend less than 20 hours per week procuring food. It's not hard to imagine that HGs who lived in richer environments before they were all appropriated by farmers needed far less time to feed themselves. I've read in other sources that most HG groups would have required 30-40 hours per week to take care of all of their survival needs (food, clothing, shelter, tools, etc.). They "worked" far less than we do and the natural human condition was to have lots of leisure time. A lot of the problems of modernity make a lot more sense in that context.

    Anyway, I'll stop derailing this thread now.

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    I hunted down some coffee and gathered some toast & butter this morning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I hunted down some coffee and gathered some toast & butter this morning.
    Did you enter the state of ketosis afterwards?

    I just eat a healthy well-rounded diet and that seems to do the job.
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    Iíve been on a low carb but ďnot ketoĒ diet, I eat six small meals and time my higher carb meals to early in the day and prior to my workouts. Dinners and post training meals have a combo of lean protein and lots of veggies.
    For me this works, my waist is 32Ē and Iím sure my body fat percentage is lower than last fall. Iíll be testing that next week.
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