Trouble at DuPont?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
    jcard14
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    Trouble at DuPont?

    Anyone else hearing Ridgeline is being ripped out? Rumors flying...I hope it isnít true.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcard14 View Post
    Anyone else hearing Ridgeline is being ripped out? Rumors flying...I hope it isnít true.
    I know there are work days scheduled to repair it, so I don't think so.

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...18273081542389

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcard14 View Post
    Anyone else hearing Ridgeline is being ripped out? Rumors flying...I hope it isnít true.
    FAKE NEWS

    But ya workdays coming up on it, maybe wires got crossed in whatever conversations you heard?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcard14 View Post
    Anyone else hearing Ridgeline is being ripped out? Rumors flying...I hope it isnít true.
    Yeah... its true.

    They're paving it and taking out all the rocks. People were complaining it was too technical.
    On your left!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjopickin View Post
    Yeah... its true.

    They're paving it and taking out all the rocks. People were complaining it was too technical.
    Ridgeline has rocks? I thought they paved it years ago.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Ridgeline has rocks? I thought they paved it years ago.
    They did. Now they need to do this:

    https://youtu.be/tteM_rFYGfw

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy G. Parrish View Post
    They did. Now they need to do this:

    https://youtu.be/tteM_rFYGfw

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    Lol. Looks about right.

  8. #8
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    From what all I know, the OP is correct.

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    I was out there a few weeks ago. It looks like they are widening the trail and taking out the tight trees near the end. They started doing some work in the turns. Not sure what's happened since then.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by motomike View Post
    From what all I know, the OP is correct.

    Whoa. other mike, you're saying the "ripped out" description is correct?

    For those who don't know, moto is contractor who built the new Hickory and is one of the least likely people to spread any kind of "FAKE NEWS."

    Be interested to see what happens...

  11. #11
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    News travels fast, one of my buddies down here in FL just alerted me to this. Pretty shitty if true, hopefully it's being blown out of proportion.

  12. #12
    jcard14
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    OP checking in. Heard itís currently barricaded and folks with connections are saying staff is tight lipped... Iím fearing the worst.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    Whoa. other mike, you're saying the "ripped out" description is correct?

    Be interested to see what happens...
    Yeah, based on what I have heard. They want to "flatten" the trail somewhat and outslope all the banked turns. Basically take away everything that makes the trail fun for bikes.

  14. #14
    jcard14
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    Why do hikers and horse folks continue to use this trail? I understand it is a shared use trail and not directional but come on...use some common sense! Iíve never attempted to ride up it because that is foolish. They do it because they want to be dicks IMHO.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcard14 View Post
    Why do hikers and horse folks continue to use this trail? I understand it is a shared use trail and not directional but come on...use some common sense! Iíve never attempted to ride up it because that is foolish. They do it because they want to be dicks IMHO.
    Well, it IS designated as multi-use. This was one of the first issues pointed out by many. Trail was going to be a high-speed luge to the bottom. Equestrians, hikers, and bikers going up the trail would be in harm's way. I'm surprised there weren't more collisions. A few weeks back a guy and his two kids on strider bikes were pushing their way up from the bottom. I almost ran over one kid.

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  16. #16
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    Well sonuvabiscuit. Outslope banked turns? Dannnnggg

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    They were chipping away at the berms when we road through.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammertime View Post
    They were chipping away at the berms when we road through.
    RIP Ridgeline, glad I had a chance to ride it.
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  19. #19
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    If the land manager has a problem with rider speed on Ridgeline and wants it changed to reduce speeds, I'm not surprised. With the way Ridgeline was redone to be a very downhill-oriented flow trail, it wasn't going to be practical or safe as a two-way multiuse trail. especially with as close as it is to the trailhead, basically guaranteeing high traffic levels. For that sort of high speed downhill-oriented flow trail to work, it needs to be managed as such by the land manager.

    Last time I rode it a few weeks ago, I noticed the emphatic signs at the top regarding multi use trails and yielding to other users and I really didn't think that was going to work out so well with the way the trail was designed. It's like building a high speed race track and putting a 45mph limit on the open-wheeled race cars.

    I think there has been only one occasion where I saw anyone other than mtb riders riding downhill on that trail since the rebuild, and the folks I saw were a few hikers. With my Hope hubs and 4 inch tires, my bike is noisy AF on downhills, so they stepped off the trail LONG before they ever saw me or I saw them. But I could totally see on a few sections where someone hauling downhill on a quieter bike could otherwise have a surprise encounter with someone else that would have a very bad result for all involved.

  20. #20
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    Though I completely understand and agree that Ridgeline is multi-use and a bit dangerous at best for that use, I can see there being even more issues once Ridgeline gets de-tuned though. How many people ride the Guion side of Dupont and actually don't ride Ridgeline? In my opinion it helped disperse the MTB users across the forest. Now if they go in and do a bad job on Ridgeline to the point where MTBers aren't interested in riding it anymore, there could be much higher concentrations of riders over on the CMS side, potentially causing user issues over there too. Only time will tell. One thing is for sure, the amount of users using Dupont isn't going to decrease any time soon.

  21. #21
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    Well good riddance... Ridgeline was boring and was never laid out properly IMO. Go ride Rocky Ridge/Road and high five your friends and drink Ecusta IPAs.
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    The easiest solution would have been to make it dh only but rather than that the have to spend money dismantling it.
    I really don't find it that fun. I like Burnt mtn better. To each their own.

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    I went back and checked it out yesterday. It's the good thing about living 15 minutes away. They are still taking out trees in narrow spots. The skinny rail is gone (it was last time I was there). Some spots below where the skinny used to be are out-sloped but it looks to be more for drainage in low spots at the exit of turns. Above the skinny - spots where they were chipping away at berms have actually become more of a lip into some of the shallow berms. So, not sure they're tearing it out completely, so I wouldn't hit "panic button" yet.

    As to the signs - I don't think they single out ridgeline. I've noticed the yield triangle at the top of jim branch and a few others.

    I personally think the trail's popularity mixed with its location so close to a main trail head is a recipe for problems in the future as more and more people visit. I hope it stays the same because it means less people are in other parts of the forest that I prefer.

  24. #24
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    Hopefully that's more of the case. I don't see how they are really going to slow the trail down that much without some major work chewing up that buffed out trail surface.

  25. #25
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    Typical North Carolina. Do whatever we can to make things suck more. In fact, they should make this our state motto: North Carolina - Making things suck since 2008.

  26. #26
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    We will have to wait and see where it is when they get finished. I would love to see what would happen concerning their complaints among user groups if they tried turning it into a directional trail. You could easily connect the top of Jim Branch to Hooker Creek to Ridgeline.

    They could also alternate directions with even and odd days or something easy like downhill traffic only on Friday Saturday and Sunday.

    I heard the changes were in acted due to the high number of complaints from equestrians (mainly) and hikers. I would love to know the ratio of complaints by user groups.

    It is interesting that there are very few collisions due to the good sightlines throughout the trail. So the changes seem to be less of a safety issue and more of a perception of danger issue, or "you are cramping my hiking style or experience".

    If you contact the forest about this please be respectful. The staff may not be anti-bike but the complaints are very much so.
    So tread lightly and offer solutions.
    Should you do more trail work?

  27. #27
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    I don't really blame hikers and equestrians. While some people may overreact to close encounters with other users, it's just as much our fault as a collective group for riding irresponsibly and recklessly. There have been many times I have witnessed mountain bikers fail to slow down for other users, yield the right of way, ride out of control, and sometimes ignore other trail users. Many times the rides aren't locals, so I don't necessarily blame Dupont for making changes. I do wish there were mountain bike only trails, given the popularity of mountain biking and the contribution to the local economy.

  28. #28
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    Trouble at DuPont?

    I had a close call with some horse back riders a few years ago. Came in hot around a corner and scared the shit out of the riders (and myself).

    Tough situation

  29. #29
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    We like to think of ourselves as a courteous community around the country, but my experiences riding and living in other areas has proven otherwise, even in the southeast.

    We live in a bit of a bubble here, where riders are generally very friendly and kind to one another, and courteous of other user groups. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been here, pulled off to the side, and had someone ride past without checking on us or asking if we're alright. Most locals I've met around Brevard trailside were just stoked to be out there and weren't trying to prove anything, it's a very social and friendly attitude that doesn't exist everywhere.

    Riders from other areas, like Atlanta, can be very indifferent to others and completely unaware of what common courtesy should be. I've had to inform fellow riders from those areas on multiple occasions that common courtesy is to dismount for horses, with one of them wanting to argue with me about how they don't want to disrupt their "flow" by doing so. It's a very self centered mentality, but a lot of it is not intentional, it just comes from being surrounded by others that act the same way and a lack of multi use trails in the area. Some is just childish. These are the same guys that just want to chase PRs or KOMs, completely unaware that they aren't gonna come even close, but they try none the less. I'm just using Atlanta as an example, but there are plenty of other areas that produce the same type of people with some level of consistency.

    I think this is why those local to the area need to go out of their way to be courteous to other user groups and be involved in the local meetings/groups. If we act as an absentee group with a bunch of out of state assholes coming in wrecking everyone's recreational experience, then we are quickly going to lose ground, both in public opinion and that of the forest staff.

    All that said, I always felt allowing horses on Ridgeline was an accident waiting to happen.

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    Unfortunatly I know from personal experience that bad trail behavior isn't just from out-of-towners. For example, on more than one occasion I have witnessed locals, including bicycle shop owners and employees, who do not follow the IMBA suggested rules of the trail, like those going downhill not yielding to those riding uphill. Until riders, especially those that should be setting a good example for our sport, follow basic trail etiquette like, (oh the horrors), slowing down or even stopping for other cyclist, hikers, and even the feces dropping horses, then the actions of a few will taint us all. Whether we like it or not we are all diplomats of our sport and unless it is a bike park we need to adhere to the established rules of muti-use trails or accept the consequences of bad behavior. And I must add a mea culpa of when I was new to the sport. I am a local but my job takes me all over for extended periods of time and I have seen the loss of trail access because of boorish behavior in other places. I would not want to see it here, it really is up to us.

  31. #31
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    It's Dupont

    The worst thing about Ridgeline is where it's located. Lake Imaging access seems to be where most horse people park & it's the first trail they come to. Natural most will ride up it not knowing or not caring.
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  32. #32
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    Ridgeline and other trails up here arent the best for line of sight, especially at the speeds you can attain.

    I have had numerous run ins with hikers and horses in Pisgah and Dupont where you just cant see them until you are on top of them. Happened once going down Fletcher Creek with some horseback riders ascending the trail in that twisty section. Lucky for us both the lead rider was skilled and when his horse got to bucking he turned her up the grade.

    Nothing could have prevented that unless I was going really slow...

    I wasnt a jerk about it and apologized and we both agreed it was just one of those things.

    Trail conflicts are going to always occur. I've taken to yelling/shouting on sections with poor line of sight. Thats helped prevent a few potential collision with both riders and hikers/horses. Just shout nonsense and let folks know where you are...

    Long story short... share the trail and dont be dick to other uses. They're out there for the same reason you are. If you see folks being a dick call them out and tell them its not cool...

    Oh... and carry carrots for when you encounter horses. It endears you to the riders and the horses learn bikes are good/not scary and they give you treats haha.
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  33. #33
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    Update from DSRF

    http://www.dupontforest.com/wp-conte...-Dec182017.pdf

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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy G. Parrish View Post
    Update from DSRF

    http://www.dupontforest.com/wp-conte...-Dec182017.pdf

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    Since they are removing the bike only features, then should we therefore remove all of the horse only features around the forest?

    In particular the horse tie ups which are unsightly, and collect horse feces and urine? Not to mention when I want to walk or ride by these tied up horses their hind legs are positioned to kick another trail user on or near the trail?

    I'm sure the horse poop all over the trail system, and often in the parking lots has been deemed sterile and doesn't impact water quality nor any of the other user groups experience.
    Should you do more trail work?

  35. #35
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    I'm not an equestrian, but Ridgeline doesn't look like much fun for horseback riding with the tight banked turns. I was really surprised to see horses coming up the trail last time I was going down. The riders were acting mad at us probably because we didn't see them soon enough to slow down much. Seems like a straighter path could be cleared alongside the bike trail for horses. It isn't like a horse needs a groomed, banked, curvy path like that.
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  36. #36
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    These features have unfortunately
    caused an inaccurate perception that the trail is a bike trail, when it is intended to be a
    multi-use trail.
    So the answer is to remove these features so that people get a different perception of the trail? The signs at the top and bottom weren't enough to indicate that it's multi-use? I don't think softening berms and removing skinnies are going to make people slow down and realize it's a multi-use trail.

    I hope this isn't a precedent for the rest of the forest. Maybe horses will start hitting those kickers on Hickory so we don't lose those too.

    Seems like softening berms and removing skinnies is a silly answer to this problem. There seem to be legal concerns around making it single use and I'm not sure I want to start down that path anyway, because we'll inevitably lose, but tearing our these features or changing them simply to change perception seems a bit ridiculous. Where is Pisgah SORBA on this? Who is doing the work?

    I still stand by my earlier comment, this is a result of inappropriate and disrespectful behavior on the part of mountain bikers and strikes me as though we're being "punished" by these changes. They don't want to drive us away but they want to remind us that we are not the only users of the forest, which seems fair, it's just unfortunate that some can't realize that on their own.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNTall View Post
    It isn't like a horse needs a groomed, banked, curvy path like that.

    FYI, neither does a bike.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post

    I still stand by my earlier comment, this is a result of inappropriate and disrespectful behavior on the part of mountain bikers and strikes me as though we're being "punished" by these changes. They don't want to drive us away but they want to remind us that we are not the only users of the forest, which seems fair, it's just unfortunate that some can't realize that on their own.
    Bingo! DuPont has a disproportionate number of douchebag mountain bikers, as compared to the rest of the world. I just hope that they remain contained within its gates.

  39. #39
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    For many, many years DuPont has been a model for (mostly) successful multi-use trails.

    Moving away from that model in anyway is a mistake IMO. Why? Because precedent in other areas say that the user group for whom access would be limited is most likely to be mountain bikers.

    We want to continue to be invited to share.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy G. Parrish View Post
    Update from DSRF

    http://www.dupontforest.com/wp-conte...-Dec182017.pdf

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    That's a bunch of CYA crap. Nowhere does North Carolina General Statute 106-
    877 say anything about trail use. Maybe the DuPont State Forest has a document that says such, but i'ts not in the NC code.

    Other states in the Southeast have bike specific trails. Does no one in Raleigh realize how much money is brought to WNC by MTB?

  41. #41
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    "This misconception, coupled with some usersí disregard for trail courtesy
    (bikers yield to everyone Ė uphill or downhill), has led to user conflict along this trail."

    Well, ya can't really argue with that. This has been an ongoing problem within our sport for years, especially as more and more people get into the sport as beginners and are never taught the rules of the trail. A good starting point would be at the local bike shop. When someone buys a new bike, they should be educated about the rules of the trail before they walk out the door. It's just as important as a brand new semi-reliable dropper post.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Bingo! DuPont has a disproportionate number of douchebag mountain bikers, as compared to the rest of the world. I just hope that they remain contained within its gates.
    This phrase, "bikers yield to everyone Ė uphill or downhill" - is lost on most mountain bikers today and it causes the majority of problems. If there is a person with a dog in the trail and you are complaining about them not getting fido out of the way fast enough, you just don't understand. When you are blasting down ridgline and there are people riding up and you are angry that you have to slow down, you just don't understand.

    Trouble at DuPont?-imba-share-trail.jpg
    Last edited by Vespasianus; 12-19-2017 at 06:13 PM.
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    The most glaring problem is that the mountain bike community was left out of this decision making process. It appears that PAS and the Friends of Dupont were not contacted about the specifics of what the NC State Forest Service had in mind for Ridgeline.

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    Maybe TrailZen has some info on this . . .

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punker View Post
    The most glaring problem is that the mountain bike community was left out of this decision making process. It appears that PAS and the Friends of Dupont were not contacted about the specifics of what the NC State Forest Service had in mind for Ridgeline.
    I was thinking the same thing. I actually had to check your username to make sure I didn't write this and just forgot about it.

    Where is PAS on this? Do they have a single point of contact at the forest for going over stuff like this?

    Not trying to point fingers, I just don't understand how these changes and the intent behind them, especially to one of the most popular trails in this area, have gone largely unnoticed by the community. It feels to me there is a communication issue, either between the forest and PAS or PAS and the mtb community.

  46. #46
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    Please Read Paragraph (a)...

    Quote Originally Posted by b-roken View Post
    That's a bunch of CYA crap. Nowhere does North Carolina General Statute 106-
    877 say anything about trail use. Maybe the DuPont State Forest has a document that says such, but i'ts not in the NC code.

    Other states in the Southeast have bike specific trails. Does no one in Raleigh realize how much money is brought to WNC by MTB?
    Here's a link to NCGS 106-877: North Carolina General Statutes Chapter 106. Agriculture ¬ß 106-887 | FindLaw, in which paragraph (a) reads "(a) DuPont State Forest is designated as a State Recreational Forest.  The Department shall manage DuPont State Recreational Forest:  (i) primarily for natural resource preservation, scenic enjoyment and recreational purposes, including horseback riding, hiking, bicycling, hunting, and fishing;  (ii) so as to provide an exemplary model of scientifically sound, ecologically based natural resource management for the social and economic benefit of the forest's diverse community of users;  and (iii) consistent with the grant agreement that designates a portion of the forest as a North Carolina Nature Preserve.  In addition, the Department may use the forest for the demonstration of different forest management and resource protection techniques for local landowners, natural resource professionals, students, and other forest visitors."

    Since opening to the public, DSRF has tried to design/construct/maintain trails suitable for shared use by all the muscle-powered endeavors listed above. A clear exception to this philosophy is the 'Falls District', where high foot traffic and lots of stairs make shared-use impractical. Otherwise, trails are open to all users/all directions, and facilities like the barn can be used by other users. Many of us have camped at the barn for bike-related events, and I've hung my bike on a horse tie-out because that made fixing a flat easier! (I have not, however, seen MTBers using the manure bins in a parking lot, and wish more equestrians would use them!)

    When TD did relocation & maintenance work on Ridgeline a couple years ago, the end result showed a clear bias toward mountain bike use. Do I like it? Hell, yes! Is the perceived (by hikers & equestrians) exclusion understandable? Again, hell, yes! So perhaps Forest management should have asked TD to tone down some of Ridgeline's features before reopening the trail after that relo & maintenance work. Giving us two years of fun and now asking us to dial back our enthusiasm doesn't fly well.

    As others have suggested, removing the skinny is a bit asinine, but the feature was rotting and saw little use. And, again, perception was an issue--an equestrian I know referred to the skinny as a "launch ramp", and probably never stayed around the feature long enough to see how it was used. (We still have skinnies on Reasonover--don't tell!)

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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    This phrase, "bikers yield to everyone Ė uphill or downhill" - is lost on most mountain bikers today and it causes the majority of problems. If there is a person with a dog in the trail and you are complaining about them not getting fido out of the way fast enough, you just don't understand. When you are blasting down ridgline and there are people riding up and you are angry that you have to slow down, you just don't understand.

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    That confuses me bikers yield to hikers and then it says hikers let bikers pass....isn't a hiker letting a biker pass the hiker yielding to the biker?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wytemike21 View Post
    That confuses me bikers yield to hikers and then it says hikers let bikers pass....isn't a hiker letting a biker pass the hiker yielding to the biker?

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    It means that hikers should not block the trail. While equestrians and bikers should yield to hikers, hikers shouldn't have a picnic on the trail.

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    It looks like the DSRF press release had a typo. They referred to Section 106-877, whereas they meant 106-887, as TrailZen quoted earlier. Still, Section 887 does not appear to demand all trails be multi-user. That is an extremely narrow read of the statue.

    All that said, it certainly does not make the bikers look friendly when you see the top times on the Strava segment, Ridgeline DH (even that name is a problem), lead to average speeds over 20 mph!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrailZen View Post
    (We still have skinnies on Reasonover--don't tell!)TZ
    Actually the last time I was through there, the shorter one was missing..........
    "I ride to clear my head, my head is clearer when I'm riding SS. Therefore, I choose to ride SS."~ Fullrange Drew

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    This phrase, "bikers yield to everyone Ė uphill or downhill" - is lost on most mountain bikers today and it causes the majority of problems. If there is a person with a dog in the trail and you are complaining about them not getting fido out of the way fast enough, you just don't understand. When you are blasting down ridgline and there are people riding up and you are angry that you have to slow down, you just don't understand.

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    Bikers - leave no trace. Horses - feel free to shit all over the place.


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    Quote Originally Posted by yflyer View Post
    It looks like the DSRF press release had a typo. They referred to Section 106-877, whereas they meant 106-887, as TrailZen quoted earlier. Still, Section 887 does not appear to demand all trails be multi-user. That is an extremely narrow read of the statue.
    Thanks for pointing out my error--I hadn't noticed the section number difference... While 106-887 leaves room for trails to have more restrictive user designations, the 'all users on most trails' philosophy has been the land manager's goal (and the goal of Friends of DuPont Forest) since DSRF opened to the public.



    Quote Originally Posted by Punker View Post
    The most glaring problem is that the mountain bike community was left out of this decision making process. It appears that PAS and the Friends of Dupont were not contacted about the specifics of what the NC State Forest Service had in mind for Ridgeline.
    Two groups, Friends of DuPont Forest and the DSRF Advisory Committee, regularly discuss DSRF management issues with DSRF staff. Both groups include representatives from all major trail user groups, so the MTB community has been part of the Ridgeline discussions with DSRF staff since the trail's relo & maintenance work of June, 2015. Indeed, an FODF board member with MTB connections encouraged other FODF board members to keep Ridgeline as completed in that June 2015 work, saying that trail speeds would drop as the trail lost its polish and more roots & rocks emerged through the tread. Hmmm, wrong again!


    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    I was thinking the same thing. I actually had to check your username to make sure I didn't write this and just forgot about it.

    Where is PAS on this? Do they have a single point of contact at the forest for going over stuff like this?

    Not trying to point fingers, I just don't understand how these changes and the intent behind them, especially to one of the most popular trails in this area, have gone largely unnoticed by the community. It feels to me there is a communication issue, either between the forest and PAS or PAS and the mtb community.
    PAS, Upstate SORBA, and SORBA's executive director (Tom Sauret) have been discussing Ridgeline (and other DSRF) issues for over a year. After SORBA and DSRF representatives walked Ridgeline in October of 2016, PAS contributed to this Citizen-Times story on MTB etiquette: Mountain biking etiquette on trails is a matter of safety. PAS and Upstate SORBA have also encouraged, through newsletters and social media comments, MTBers to be more considerate of other trail users...

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    TZ, I appreciate the information. It seems as though PAS and Friends of Dupont were taken by surprise by the specific work being done on Ridgeline. This is based upon posts on social media (PAS) and me inquiring of Friends of Dupont directly. It appears that both groups were aware that work was being done on Ridgeline, but not about the specifics and how it would impact mountain bikers.

    Let me be clear, I am not faulting these groups. Myself and/or my wife are members of both; I am more concerned that the powers that be at Dupont did not reach out to these two groups before a substantive reworking of Ridgeline.

    In September or October I was part of a PAS Big Dig day and worked on Ridgeline. The NC forest service was present shaking hands and generally working the crowd thanking PAS for their work. Based on those interactions, I would have hoped for more open lines of communications.

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    The crux of the biscuit is this.When the land manager did the intiial pre bid walk with all the contractors, he specifically asked that it not give the impression it's a bike optimized trail. It shouldn't have been opened.It's great work just the wrong prescription. What a drag.

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    Quote Originally Posted by themanro View Post
    Bikers - leave no trace. Horses - feel free to shit all over the place.
    ^This.

    If the trails are truly multi-use, what's the justification that allows the equestrians to leave their horse sh!t all over the trails?

    So while Ms. Smith and here team tear down the berms on Ridgeline, horses continue to sh!t all over the trails at Dupont that hikers and bikers use. And just have to deal with it... Yep, make sense - as long as you know you're dealing with land managers here...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCTerp View Post
    ^This.

    If the trails are truly multi-use, what's the justification that allows the equestrians to leave their horse sh!t all over the trails?

    So while Ms. Smith and here team tear down the berms on Ridgeline, horses continue to sh!t all over the trails at Dupont that hikers and bikers use. And just have to deal with it... Yep, make sense - as long as you know you're dealing with land managers here...
    It would be interesting to see what kind of action complaining to DSRF about horse sh!t on the trails would result in. I think nobody EVER complains about it. If we did, as much as other users complain about other issues, maybe they'd take notice. I think filling their inbox with pictures of sh!t in the center of the trail would be, at a minimum, entertaining.

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    Is this really the right approach, though?

    I hear people complain about horse crap on the trail all the time, but it just seems divisive. I really don't like taking "their" tactics by complaining about aspects of what they do which slightly inconvenience me. It just seems petty and like we're going to end up making ourselves look bad. The other user groups already have what I consider to be valid complaints, we should be focusing on trying to resolve those rather than sling turds at the other user groups, that's a battle we will definitely lose.

    I get a little sad whenever I hear people complain about other trail users. We all inconvenience each other in some way, it seems like we should all be willing to be patient rather than whine and moan about it to the forest or each other. Just because the other users stoop to that level, doesn't mean we have to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    Is this really the right approach, though?

    I hear people complain about horse crap on the trail all the time, but it just seems divisive. I really don't like taking "their" tactics by complaining about aspects of what they do which slightly inconvenience me. It just seems petty and like we're going to end up making ourselves look bad. The other user groups already have what I consider to be valid complaints, we should be focusing on trying to resolve those rather than sling turds at the other user groups, that's a battle we will definitely lose.

    I get a little sad whenever I hear people complain about other trail users. We all inconvenience each other in some way, it seems like we should all be willing to be patient rather than whine and moan about it to the forest or each other. Just because the other users stoop to that level, doesn't mean we have to.
    No, it's not the correct approach. I was just being sarcastic and humorous about this rather seriously multi-use topic that was brought up. If I am required to pick up after my dog when hiking, why are equestrians not required to pick up after their horses? It's a valid issue, and potentially one of public health (ever get horse poop in your mouth from rolling through it?). Multi-use consequences abound, and some complaints to land managers are often out of balance with regard to the other users. That was the point I was trying to make.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    Is this really the right approach, though?

    I hear people complain about horse crap on the trail all the time, but it just seems divisive. I really don't like taking "their" tactics by complaining about aspects of what they do which slightly inconvenience me. It just seems petty and like we're going to end up making ourselves look bad. The other user groups already have what I consider to be valid complaints, we should be focusing on trying to resolve those rather than sling turds at the other user groups, that's a battle we will definitely lose.

    I get a little sad whenever I hear people complain about other trail users. We all inconvenience each other in some way, it seems like we should all be willing to be patient rather than whine and moan about it to the forest or each other. Just because the other users stoop to that level, doesn't mean we have to.
    While I definitely respect your position and level-headedness, I'll kindly disagree.

    Complaining about horse crap is divisive? I've never met a rider or hiker that appreciates it. I certainly couldn't drop a deuce on the trail and it be viewed as acceptable. Not sure what gives the equestrians and their horses that right...

    If all user-groups are asked to get along and be courteous to one another, then I think removing shit from the trail fits the definition of courteous.

    And "taking their tactics" - I presume "their" is a reference to the equestrians. While I don't want to head down that slippery slope i will say after having been involved in trail access meetings (albeit not in NC) in the past, I'm wise enough to know that users group power, influence and frankly the volume of their whining. So I'm OK using "their" tactics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy G. Parrish View Post
    No, it's not the correct approach. I was just being sarcastic and humorous about this rather seriously multi-use topic that was brought up. If I am required to pick up after my dog when hiking, why are equestrians not required to pick up after their horses? It's a valid issue, and potentially one of public health (ever get horse poop in your mouth from rolling through it?). Multi-use consequences abound, and some complaints to land managers are often out of balance with regard to the other users. That was the point I was trying to make.

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    I thought I was crazy by thinking that to be honest. Itís the most obvious thing and even the signage reflects that. It basically says that is ok for horses and horse riders to leave trace behind, how was that justifies to begin with is mind boggling. Itís the rule #1 in any type of conservation. It affects flora, fauna and overall experience of the trail. It affects both bikers and hikers yet no one really talks about it.


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    Deleted. Said I wasn't going down that slippery slope.

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    Don't know if this was posted (from Facebook)

    "N.C. Forest Service

    37 mins ∑

    As of December 20, 2017 the current maintenance project that was planned for Ridgeline trail has been completed. About 40 dead or damaged trees near the trail were cut. These were cut with chain saws by members of the NCFS Bridge Program. About 50 ďnicksĒ were installed or created. This involves using hand tools to remove just enough soil to drain low points that form in the trail and can hold water after precipitation. Some hazard trees and stumps remain that will be cut as resources are available in the new year.

    The NCFS BRIDGE program is a cooperative effort between the NC Forest Service and the NC Division of Prisons that provides well-trained and equipped forest firefighting crews. An important goal is to develop a strong work ethic and work skills so inmates will be able to secure a job when they are released. This project helped the inmates to practice skills like those used in firefighting while accomplishing productive and needed work. You can find more about this program here: ncforestservice.gov/fire_control/bridge.htm"
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    LOL, I bet those "nicks" just happen to be right in the middle of berms. FWIW the berms on Ridgeline seemed to drain water pretty damn well except for maybe a couple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teamdicky View Post
    Don't know if this was posted (from Facebook)

    "N.C. Forest Service

    37 mins ∑

    As of December 20, 2017 the current maintenance project that was planned for Ridgeline trail has been completed. About 40 dead or damaged trees near the trail were cut. These were cut with chain saws by members of the NCFS Bridge Program. About 50 ďnicksĒ were installed or created. This involves using hand tools to remove just enough soil to drain low points that form in the trail and can hold water after precipitation. Some hazard trees and stumps remain that will be cut as resources are available in the new year.

    The NCFS BRIDGE program is a cooperative effort between the NC Forest Service and the NC Division of Prisons that provides well-trained and equipped forest firefighting crews. An important goal is to develop a strong work ethic and work skills so inmates will be able to secure a job when they are released. This project helped the inmates to practice skills like those used in firefighting while accomplishing productive and needed work. You can find more about this program here: ncforestservice.gov/fire_control/bridge.htm"
    I would say that this report is very accurate. I rode Ridgeline this morning. In summary, if I wasn't a local, I dont think I would have noticed any change.

    The top 3/4 of the trail is untouched, aside from a couple small trees that were removed. The majority of the drainage/tree removal was during the last .25-.5 miles of trail (when the trees got tight). Trees were removed, & large drainage 'nicks' were installed. Several of the lower berms have been reworked for this drainage... but they are still berms (no negative outsloping as feared). 1 berm was partially sacrificed for a large drainage 'nick'.

    If the work is completed as stated above.... the trail still rips to your hearts content.

    Edit: I was fully prepared to take photos of the work that was completed & took away from the mtb experience.... but there was no work justified enough for me to stop & get the camera out.

    Thank you maintenance workers, we appreciate what you do to keep our trails sustainable for the masses. Thank you for not vastly changing Ridgeline without open discussion between the user groups & forest management.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mkirby258 View Post
    I would say that this report is very accurate. I rode Ridgeline this morning. In summary, if I wasn't a local, I dont think I would have noticed any change.

    The top 3/4 of the trail is untouched, aside from a couple small trees that were removed. The majority of the drainage/tree removal was during the last .25-.5 miles of trail (when the trees got tight). Trees were removed, & large drainage 'nicks' were installed. Several of the lower berms have been reworked for this drainage... but they are still berms (no negative outsloping as feared). 1 berm was partially sacrificed for a large drainage 'nick'.

    If the work is completed as stated above.... the trail still rips to your hearts content.

    Edit: I was fully prepared to take photos of the work that was completed & took away from the mtb experience.... but there was no work justified enough for me to stop & get the camera out.

    Thank you maintenance workers, we appreciate what you do to keep our trails sustainable for the masses. Thank you for not vastly changing Ridgeline without open discussion between the user groups & forest management.
    So this whole thread is a big nothingburger, eh? Good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    So this whole thread is a big nothingburger, eh? Good.

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    Lol that's what I thought too, a lot of people butthurt before even seeing the impact lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by mkirby258 View Post
    I would say that this report is very accurate. I rode Ridgeline this morning. In summary, if I wasn't a local, I dont think I would have noticed any change.

    The top 3/4 of the trail is untouched, aside from a couple small trees that were removed. The majority of the drainage/tree removal was during the last .25-.5 miles of trail (when the trees got tight). Trees were removed, & large drainage 'nicks' were installed. Several of the lower berms have been reworked for this drainage... but they are still berms (no negative outsloping as feared). 1 berm was partially sacrificed for a large drainage 'nick'.

    If the work is completed as stated above.... the trail still rips to your hearts content.

    Edit: I was fully prepared to take photos of the work that was completed & took away from the mtb experience.... but there was no work justified enough for me to stop & get the camera out.

    Thank you maintenance workers, we appreciate what you do to keep our trails sustainable for the masses. Thank you for not vastly changing Ridgeline without open discussion between the user groups & forest management.
    Thanks for the report and good news.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wytemike21 View Post
    Lol that's what I thought too, a lot of people butthurt before even seeing the impact lol
    That, or enough people made their voices heard that the DSRF staff eased back on this and didn't go as far as initially intended.

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    Rode it today. As said above, the upper portion has some trees removed, the lower portion still has the berms but with some added drainage cuts in the low spots. Unless you ride it often, it wouldn't be noticeable.

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    this thread makes me glad i just go ride wilsons, or, if i go further west, i donít waste my time in dupont. GLWD

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    I hope people take this as a warning. They are concerned about user conflicts, and apparently are not concerned about mountain bikers' input or participation. If we don't ride more responsibly and encourage other mountain bikers to do the same, future projects might not happen in our favor. Of course, many people will just say this was a bunch of nothing and forget all about the fine line we are walking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jstuhlman View Post
    this thread makes me glad i just go ride wilsons, or, if i go further west, i donít waste my time in dupont. GLWD
    Based on the conclusion you draw from this thread, I'm glad you don't waste your time at Dupont too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    I hope people take this as a warning. They are concerned about user conflicts, and apparently are not concerned about mountain bikers' input or participation. If we don't ride more responsibly and encourage other mountain bikers to do the same, future projects might not happen in our favor. Of course, many people will just say this was a bunch of nothing and forget all about the fine line we are walking.
    I doubt most people who need to hear this message are the people posting here. But point strongly taken. Politeness on the trails is something I definitely take seriously.

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    Never been a fan of this trail, the proximity to the horse TH and being like the closest trail to the main TH mixed with the speed and multi-use designation was not a great sustainable design.

    Put it behind a few river crossings with a few miles from a TH and you'll be fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    Never been a fan of this trail, the proximity to the horse TH and being like the closest trail to the main TH mixed with the speed and multi-use designation was not a great sustainable design.

    Put it behind a few river crossings with a few miles from a TH and you'll be fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    So this whole thread is a big nothingburger, eh? Good.

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    Seems like some good things might come of this work.

    For the first time that I know of, the DSRF staff heard quite a few calls from mountain bikers about the importance of Ridgeline and the trail system.

    No body here went off on the staff and PAS and FODF communicated with the land manager and conveyed the land managers message. The old trolls here even kept it civil.


    Directional trails were brought up again, and folks called out that the work was done because of the "perception" of a few that it was a bike only trail. Which doesn't hold water because there are signs at both ends of the trail stating otherwise, along with signs at all major trail heads. It is well known that it's a multiuse system. I haven't heard of any actual collisions reported, but they are bound to have happened.

    The equestrians keep hammering that the trail was built as a bike only with bike only features. While this is nonsense as the rolling grade dips are one of the best suited water diversion structures that will hold up to the traffic and sandy soils of DSRF. Even if it was made for bikes, the horse folks sure seem to love riding up it.

    The beam was removed, and not replaced, and every kid that I have ever hiked it with Ridgeline used it. Nevermind that the vast majority of bikers have to slow down to ride it, which happens to be a great way to help control speed.

    Its seems the bermed turns were the main focus of this action by the FS. But most of those are nested in play King King an embankment, so they should still be there. It sounds like the work they did in house was pretty decent and all handwork.

    It is also noted that FODF and PAS and Upstate SORBA were not consulted nor asked to address these issues even though they do trailwork fairly often and PAS had a workday on it in Nov. The FS sent out an email days it would be closed and brought it up in few meetings. I was told there wasn't really much of a discussion, it was more of a statement.

    Trail Dynamics was also not asked/or consulted about it (which isn't a big deal), and it turns out they would have done it for free. Those guys have put hundreds of volunteer hours into the trail system. They felt they had a good relationship and history with the forest and were disappointed they weren't contacted. Sounds like they have already volunteered to help with additional work.

    Multiuse bidirectional inclined trails fail all user groups when the use gets too high. One could look in all directions for successful trail system management by using directional trails as a management tool; NC Parks, Tsali, Knoxville, etc. If you really want to drive it home look to the western states. Even if it was something as simple as directional daytime use on Friday, Saturday and Sunday would solve a lot of conflicts.

    This issue also drives home the need for DRSF to develop and actual trail system management plan (master plan) created by unbiased set of trail professionals. This document would allow the staff have a greater set of management tools and a actual study of usage patterns and demand. Funding could come from a multitude of sources for a system analysis and plan, but to date no progress has made to acquire a master plan. Maybe FODF could make this happen. $75k???

    The staff acts like they don't already have hike only trails, or it's just a small percentage. But they do and the presecdence is set. They have also made repeated adjustments and concessions for equestrians; parking lots, crap boxes, horse tie ups, the ride around on Jim Branch (hikers didn't need it and intermediate bikers can push for 50 yrds), and all of the horse fords. But some act like that stuff didn't happen or exists. Do those things make the trails horse only? No. Bike features don't make RL bike only.

    The no net gain of trails in DRSF has also outlived it's purpose (to get the system sustainable) and practicality. This concept was introduced by FODF and adopted by the staff once upon a time when most of the trails gushed sediment to the creek.

    DRSF is an awesome trail system that needs to be managed as one. The forest visitation numbers are down overall the last couple years, but I am not so sure about bikes. I seem to notice more and more bike racks everywhere time I leave my house.

    It is time for better and a more modern management approach for Ridgeline.


    This matter, in the end, may have been much ado about nothing in some people's eyes. But I think it has been a positive experience pointing out multiple needs and changes to the trail system management strategy.


    If you have questions or comments on the DSRF trail system you should contact Mary Smith, the Recreation Director, and not Jason Guidry the forest supervisor.
    Should you do more trail work?

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    I rode Ridgeline today and did not notice much difference from about a month ago. It was a bit wet in spots which affected my speed more than any trail changes could.

    I think it is funny the people who comment about why would equestrians want to ride Ridgeline since is in not suited to horses or idealistically attractive. Do you ride gravel roads if there is a trail nearby, even if it the trail is not ideally suited to your style? I do not, I stick to the trail as long as it is somewhat rideable.

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    I'll ride whichever option best suits my purposes. I don't understand your point... There are other options better suited for horses that go to the same places.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    I'll ride whichever option best suits my purposes. I don't understand your point... There are other options better suited for horses that go to the same places.
    An equestrian friend tells me that after pasture time or travel time in the trailer, his horses are full of energy, and he turns them up the first steep climb he finds. He used to live near the Guion side of DSRF, and Rocky Ridge was his standard after-work ride. For equestrians parking in the Imaging lot, the first climb is Ridgeline, so they use Ridgeline to dial back their mount's enthusiasm. The trail is clearly marked as multi-use, so the choice is theirs...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    I'll ride whichever option best suits my purposes. I don't understand your point... There are other options better suited for horses that go to the same places.
    If you do not understand my point, then you are obtuse.

    What is the point of riding your bike? Is it to get from point A to B as quickly and easily as possible? No, it is to do it with the maximum fun possible. I am sure equestrians feel the same way, and riding a trail rather than a gravel road is that way. Is Ridgeline ideally suited to horses, maybe not, but is it more fun than riding a gravel road, I am sure it is.

    Your kind of thinking is what will get bikes banned from trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bfluid View Post
    The forest visitation numbers are down overall the last couple years,
    What?
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtpisgah View Post
    If you do not understand my point, then you are obtuse.

    What is the point of riding your bike? Is it to get from point A to B as quickly and easily as possible? No, it is to do it with the maximum fun possible. I am sure equestrians feel the same way, and riding a trail rather than a gravel road is that way. Is Ridgeline ideally suited to horses, maybe not, but is it more fun than riding a gravel road, I am sure it is.

    Your kind of thinking is what will get bikes banned from trails.
    I'm saying I ride the trails I want to ride, as long as it is legal and responsible. I would expect equestrians to do the same. I never said they couldn't or shouldn't taje their horses on Ridgeline. I apparently too subtly inferred that if somebody doesn't like Ridgeline,nthey could always choose Jim Branch or Lake Imaging Road. Your original statement said that you ride whatever best fits your style, then used that as justification for equestians to choose a trail that is not suited for their purposes when there are better options around. That's not me being obtuse. That's your faulty use of logic.

    I'm not sure how my thinking gets bikes banned, especially if you took the time to read my other posts. Perhaps you should consider your own thinking, given you were riding wet trails during a freeze-thaw cycle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrailZen View Post
    An equestrian friend tells me that after pasture time or travel time in the trailer, his horses are full of energy, and he turns them up the first steep climb he finds. He used to live near the Guion side of DSRF, and Rocky Ridge was his standard after-work ride. For equestrians parking in the Imaging lot, the first climb is Ridgeline, so they use Ridgeline to dial back their mount's enthusiasm. The trail is clearly marked as multi-use, so the choice is theirs...

    TZ
    Of course the choice is theirs. When did I say it wasn't? Also, could you ask your friend why they would choose to take their rowdy horses up a known to be heavily used trail, then complain to the rangers when they encounter a biker coming down?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    What?
    Hard to believe I know. This came directly from the forest supervisor.

    It seems to me that after folks have seen the waterfalls they're not in as much of a hurry to come back. However I don't think the bike numbers have dropped one bit. As with any statistic, usage numbers are a bit fuzzy at best.
    Last edited by 2bfluid; 01-03-2018 at 09:54 AM. Reason: repeat
    Should you do more trail work?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bfluid View Post
    Hard to hard to believe I know. This came directly from the forest supervisor.

    It seems to me that after folks have seen the waterfalls they're not in as much of a hurry to come back. However I don't think the bike numbers have dropped one bit. As with any statistic, usage numbers are a bit fuzzy at best.
    Yeah, I'm curious how they are counting usage numbers.

    A place like DuPont with many access points and parking areas and lots of trails for users to disperse on makes it really hard to get counts in the first place, let alone any sorts of counts of the different user groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Yeah, I'm curious how they are counting usage numbers.

    A place like DuPont with many access points and parking areas and lots of trails for users to disperse on makes it really hard to get counts in the first place, let alone any sorts of counts of the different user groups.
    I believe they have, or had, wire counters running across parking lot entrances at times. I remember seeing these, in particular at Fawn Lake. They probably guesstimate based on a sample number taken on specific days, would be my guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bfluid View Post
    Hard to believe I know. This came directly from the forest supervisor.

    It seems to me that after folks have seen the waterfalls they're not in as much of a hurry to come back. However I don't think the bike numbers have dropped one bit. As with any statistic, usage numbers are a bit fuzzy at best.
    What's really weird is that they were quoting a bunch of record-increase-in-attendence stats last year when they were petitioning for a larger budget for more employees, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RDO View Post
    What's really weird is that they were quoting a bunch of record-increase-in-attendence stats last year when they were petitioning for a larger budget for more employees, etc.
    I think they peaked at 650K and last year was around 600k, 2017 is about the same. Don't quote me on these as exact numbers. The conversation was months ago.
    Should you do more trail work?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Of course the choice is theirs. When did I say it wasn't? Also, could you ask your friend why they would choose to take their rowdy horses up a known to be heavily used trail, then complain to the rangers when they encounter a biker coming down?
    Neither my friend nor his horse is particularly 'rowdy'--he's just trying to burn off the horse's energy quickly, and turning the horse up the first climb he encounters is an easy way to do it. You know, he's riding whichever option best suits his purposes. He won't have issues encountering bikes or other traffic on Ridgeline or any other trail, as his horses are comfortable with other trail users, and he tells me the horses usually hear oncoming traffic well in advance. Most of the horse/bike conflict issues I've seen details on were when an equestrian new to DSRF encountered a MTBer also new to DSRF--new equestrians often don't expect lots of bikes on the trails, and new MTBers often think the Forest is a bike park...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bfluid View Post
    I think they peaked at 650K and last year was around 600k, 2017 is about the same. Don't quote me on these as exact numbers. The conversation was months ago.
    I found this on the Hendersonville Lightning from 2016, so I guess these are 2015 numbers. Looks like it peaked at 683K then dropped to 650K to 600K

    "The crowds have grown so large that theyíre forcing the forest to shut down some of the popular attractions that draw people from far and wide. The 2,200-acre forest straddling the Henderson and Transylvania county line drew 683,000 visitors last year, nearly seven times the number that visited when it first opened in 2002. Just when the rush of popularity from the hit movie ďHunger GamesĒ was dying down, a new nature fad popped up. Last spring, crowds seeking a look at the rare blue ghost fireflies overwhelmed forest trails, damaging the habitat that harbored the blue-glowing critters. The forest service announced last month that it was closing overused trails to prevent further damage."

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    Quote Originally Posted by RDO View Post
    What's really weird is that they were quoting a bunch of record-increase-in-attendence stats last year when they were petitioning for a larger budget for more employees, etc.
    A couple years ago, DSRF (with input from Friends of DuPont Forest (FODF) and the DSRF Advisory Committee) proposed a parking fee. Local politicians proposed increased Forest funding instead, and used the increase in annual visitation as justification for some added positions on the Forest, as well as some one-time funding for Forest infrastructure. Forest visitation had been running in the 100K-200K/fiscal year from 2007 thru 2011, then saw increases to 300K in 2012, 335K in 2013, 370K in 2014, 544K in 2015, and 698K in 2016. Fiscal year 2017 saw a drop in visitor count to 588K. (NOTE: the source for these numbers is the "Annual Legislative Report on DuPont State Recreational Forest", dated October 1, 2017.)

    Yep, user counts are much like any other estimate, but the system used at DSRF has been pretty constant at the Forest. While exact numbers will never be available, the Forest system should be reliable enough to capture trends. FODF members have encouraged the use of a trail counter system that would capture user type, group number and user direction on trails, but the data collection and interpretation tasks would be pretty large, so I don't expect that level of user detail soon. Like 2bfluid, I suspect that MTB use is steady or increasing, while other users are declining, but I can't prove it.

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    Last edited by TrailZen; 01-03-2018 at 04:43 PM. Reason: Source quoted...
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrailZen View Post
    Like 2bfluid, I suspect that MTB use is steady or increasing, while other users are declining, but I can't prove it. TZ
    I agree with this. I think the smaller numbers are probably just the water fall visitor numbers slightly decreasing, likely due to the movie "fame" wearing off.
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    Well, I was not riding wet trails during freeze-thaw. I was riding DuPont under typical conditions with a few wet spots as I stated. We started our ride at 10:30 and it was about 42 degrees.

    Equestrians are riding responsibly, it is typically the mtb'ers who are not riding responsibly. You did infer that they should not be riding Ridgeline, and if they like Ridgeline, why should they not be able to ride it?

    I do not know who you are and I really do not care, I just know you are not the kind of person I want to ride with or be be associated with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtpisgah View Post
    Well, I was not riding wet trails during freeze-thaw. I was riding DuPont under typical conditions with a few wet spots as I stated. We started our ride at 10:30 and it was about 42 degrees.

    Equestrians are riding responsibly, it is typically the mtb'ers who are not riding responsibly. You did infer that they should not be riding Ridgeline, and if they like Ridgeline, why should they not be able to ride it?

    I do not know who you are and I really do not care, I just know you are not the kind of person I want to ride with or be be associated with.
    You know that because... I'm curious, but I agree. I don't really care about you, either. The funny thing is, how do you know that you don't already know me?

    I wasn't inferring anything. What I said was that if people have an issue sharing a multi-use trail, then they have other options.

    And no, equestrians are not always responsible riders. Last time I was there, I followed an equestrian for quite a while before they let me pass. He had ear buds in, so he had no idea I was behind them despite my polite announcements, and he cut corners by tracking yards off of the trail bed. I've also seen plenty of equestrians riding during freeze-thaw and super wet conditions, creating way more damage than mountain bikers. I think your opinion might be a bit skewed by the fact that there are more mountain bikers and a wider range of mountain biker types. Conflicts will increase as more and more equestrians hit the trails because of the new equestrian center, but to blame it all on mountain bikers is asinine.
    Last edited by mountainbiker24; 01-20-2018 at 06:24 AM.

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    I'm glad this thread popped up again.

    I rode Ridgeline before all the freezing, snowing, etc nonsense and I saw where they cut out a few trees. I also saw where they resurfaced the berms at the bottom, but whatever they did appears to have made them worse. There is now (or was a few weeks ago) a rut in the new dirt on one of the berms at the bottom, it runs down the center. Not sure if it's flattened out by now or not, but I think some of the work they did could use some attention.

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    Trouble at DuPont?

    Rode when it was 60+ few weeks ago and they were in great condition..like to think going too quick to notice any ruts though. No signs of it being torn down!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bznc View Post
    Rode when it was 60+ few weeks ago and they were in great condition..like to think going too quick to notice any ruts though. No signs of it being torn down!
    Yea, the last few times I've ridden it, it's smoothed out a fair bit.

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    My wife and I made the mistake of riding up Ridgeline the first time we rode it, and it was the closest thing to a collision that I have witnessed in over 30 years of mountain biking, with a guy flying downhill. It was as if he was in a race, but there was no one behind him. My wife was terrified and lost her enthusiasm for the ride... so I know how other trail users must feel when they encounter a bike on a blind curve at high speed.
    I have no issue with DuPont feeling the need to modify the trail to make it safer. I rode it again a month ago and it's still a fun trail. In my opinion, if it prevents one collision, it's worth it. Our fault for riding up it, but it made me wonder why it is not a one-directional trail ?
    On the same recent trip, we encountered a group of three in the Reasonover parking lot and crossed paths with them a couple of times on our loop. I wasn't riding my e-mtb, but had it with me and let the older gentleman who was 82 with terminal pancreatic cancer take it for a spin. He liked it and mentioned that he might buy one.
    Needless to say, he had an interesting take on all the no ebike signs at Bent Creek and Pisgah. Fortunately we made it out of there without an e-mtb hater from the mountain bike community reporting him or tossing the bike in the lake.
    Last edited by 1-track-mind; 05-12-2018 at 10:02 AM.
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    People should educate themselves when they go to new trails, even if it doesn't say DH only most people who ride DuPont know that ridgeline was designed as a DH. I have never seen anyone ride the berms uphill. I think it's irresponsible for the people that know about ridgeline to ride it uphill. They should also put no e-mtb signs at DuPont.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    My wife and I made the mistake of riding up Ridgeline the first time we rode it, and it was the closest thing to a collision that I have witnessed in over 30 years of mountain biking, with a guy flying downhill. It was as if he was in a race, but there was no one behind him. My wife was terrified and lost her enthusiasm for the ride... so I know how other trail users must feel when they encounter a bike on a blind curve at high speed.
    I have no issue with DuPont feeling the need to modify the trail to make it safer. I rode it again a month ago and it's still a fun trail. In my opinion, if it prevents one collision, it's worth it. Our fault for riding up it, but it made me wonder why it is not a one-directional trail ?
    On the same recent trip, we encountered a group of three in the Reasonover parking lot and crossed paths with them a couple of times on our loop. I wasn't riding my e-mtb, but had it with me and let the older gentleman who was 82 with terminal pancreatic cancer take it for a spin. He liked it and mentioned that he might buy one.
    Needless to say, he had an interesting take on all the no ebike signs at Bent Creek and Pisgah. Fortunately we made it out of there without an e-mtb hater from the mountain bike community reporting him or tossing the bike in the lake.
    https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/2fcd647...3-79d922c78571
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  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    My wife and I made the mistake of riding up Ridgeline the first time we rode it, and it was the closest thing to a collision that I have witnessed in over 30 years of mountain biking, with a guy flying downhill. It was as if he was in a race, but there was no one behind him. My wife was terrified and lost her enthusiasm for the ride... so I know how other trail users must feel when they encounter a bike on a blind curve at high speed.
    I have no issue with DuPont feeling the need to modify the trail to make it safer. I rode it again a month ago and it's still a fun trail. In my opinion, if it prevents one collision, it's worth it. Our fault for riding up it, but it made me wonder why it is not a one-directional trail ?
    On the same recent trip, we encountered a group of three in the Reasonover parking lot and crossed paths with them a couple of times on our loop. I wasn't riding my e-mtb, but had it with me and let the older gentleman who was 82 with terminal pancreatic cancer take it for a spin. He liked it and mentioned that he might buy one.
    Needless to say, he had an interesting take on all the no ebike signs at Bent Creek and Pisgah. Fortunately we made it out of there without an e-mtb hater from the mountain bike community reporting him or tossing the bike in the lake.
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    Dear MTBR, I can't believe I'm writing this letter.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelcaro View Post
    People should educate themselves when they go to new trails, even if it doesn't say DH only most people who ride DuPont know that ridgeline was designed as a DH. I have never seen anyone ride the berms uphill. I think it's irresponsible for the people that know about ridgeline to ride it uphill. They should also put no e-mtb signs at DuPont.

    When I last rode Ridgeline - I was trying to bomb it but I passed 3-4 groups riding up. One was a huge group from a bike shop that had maybe 15-20 riders.

    On a side note, about a month ago I was riding a place called rocky ridge outside of Charlotte and kept getting demolished up the hills by these really old dudes. Pissed the living crap out of me. When I got back to the lot, I acknowledged them on their riding skill and was informed that they were riding e-bikes and that is how they make it up the hills so fast!
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    I've encountered a few groups in spandex going uphill also.

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    There's nothing wrong or irresponsible about riding up Ridgeline or any other trail that isn't signed as one-way. Riding up a section is a great way to improve your knowledge of the trail and be better at riding it downhill since you literally see it from a whole new perspective. You should always assume there could be someone coming uphill when riding any downhill, especially in a place as popular as DuPont.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COTarHeel View Post
    There's nothing wrong or irresponsible about riding up Ridgeline or any other trail that isn't signed as one-way. Riding up a section is a great way to improve your knowledge of the trail and be better at riding it downhill since you literally see it from a whole new perspective. You should always assume there could be someone coming uphill when riding any downhill, especially in a place as popular as DuPont.

    I agree. My point was that this assumption that ridegline is a one way trail and everyone knows it is false. There are lots of people who ride up it.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    I ride up Ridgeline, and always yield to the DH rider

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    Quote Originally Posted by wytemike21 View Post
    I ride up Ridgeline, and always yield to the DH rider

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    I yield to any DH rider anywhere. They're in the moment

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    I've also witnessed the same people riding uphill not yielding when they are riding it downhill, maybe some entitled roadies, who knows?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshevilleMTB View Post
    I yield to any DH rider anywhere. They're in the moment
    I do to...but didn't want to get into that one too much there's like a hundred other posts on that

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelcaro View Post
    People should educate themselves when they go to new trails, even if it doesn't say DH only most people who ride DuPont know that ridgeline was designed as a DH. I have never seen anyone ride the berms uphill. I think it's irresponsible for the people that know about ridgeline to ride it uphill. They should also put no e-mtb signs at DuPont.
    I think I acknowledged that we made a mistake riding up Ridgeline the first time. I must have glanced at the map and figured it was the shortest route to Hickory/Ridgeline, which I was told was the best trail in DuPont. If it's a DH trail why is it not one-directional ? BTW I was not on an e-mtb climbing Ridgeline, so what does this have to do with no e-mtb signs ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelcaro View Post
    I've encountered a few groups in spandex going uphill also.
    Whoa, you just said you never saw anyone riding up Ridgeline, and now they are wearing spandex ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post

    On a side note, about a month ago I was riding a place called rocky ridge outside of Charlotte and kept getting demolished up the hills by these really old dudes. Pissed the living crap out of me. When I got back to the lot, I acknowledged them on their riding skill and was informed that they were riding e-bikes and that is how they make it up the hills so fast!
    Listen, when you are a really old dude and assuming you are still riding mountain bikes, there's a good chance that it will be an e-mtb. So you can thank the guys who are paving the way for access.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelcaro View Post
    I've also witnessed the same people riding uphill not yielding when they are riding it downhill, maybe some entitled roadies, who knows?
    E-bikes and roadies, that's the problem.
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  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    E-bikes and roadies, that's the problem.
    Don't forget the guys from Charlotte.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
    Don't forget the guys from Charlotte.
    I thought it was Atlanta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    Listen, when you are a really old dude and assuming you are still riding mountain bikes, there's a good chance that it will be an e-mtb. So you can thank the guys who are paving the way for access.
    Keep your panties on. I was pissed because I was getting passed going up hill by a bunch of old dudes, not because they were on e-bikes.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    I like spandex. I sweat too much in baggies in hot weather.
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