Sidehill Connector- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Sidehill Connector

    ...is closed to all users due to Resources Impacted - whatever that means. Looks pretty permanent, too. Anyone know what the deal is? I thought a bunch of work was just done there.

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  2. #2
    Big Mac
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    Yeah, I wondered about that myself. The dirty thurs. gang had just done some work on it. I was on it just before they closed it and everything seemed normal to me. Not sure why it was closed. I'd say there are a more pressing issues at Bent Creek!

  3. #3
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    delete head. as per request... Let's just say that the old saying 'It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission' doesn't really apply with the USFS.
    Last edited by pisgahproductions; 06-06-2010 at 09:20 AM.
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  4. #4
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    Saw that Friday night and thought what.....

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by pisgahproductions
    delete head. as per request... Let's just say that the old saying 'It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission' doesn't really apply with the USFS.

    dubya. tee. eff?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by pisgahproductions
    delete head. as per request... Let's just say that the old saying 'It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission' doesn't really apply with the USFS.

    Nailed it!

  7. #7
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    I have nothing to do with Dirty Thursdays, but would like to at least get some facts out there:

    The small, seemingly beneficial trail re-location done on the trail in question did not go through all the necessary approval channels. Resources were impacted, like the sign says; the extent of this resource impact is still being determined.

    Nothing terrible, but nothing good either. I feel for the people who are connected with Dirty Thursdays, who have put in countless hours of volunteer work only to have their hands slapped for having the best of intentions.

  8. #8
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    I have mixed feelings about this....and with additional information coming to light I rewrote my post
    Last edited by motobutane; 06-07-2010 at 09:36 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by motobutane
    I have mixed feelings about this....and with additional information coming to light I rewrote my post
    Care to share your feelings with us?

  10. #10
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    how is that trail? i saw that saturday morning and opted to ride lower sidehill as an out n back during this:

    hard times>hard times connector>wolf branch>up to ingles field gap>north boundary>green's lick>down 479g to lower sidehill as an out and back>down to lower sidehill on the NE side of 479g>up 479f to boyd branch>479>ledford>hardtimes connector.

    wow was it better coming back than going out. lol...
    ride fast...take chances...

  11. #11
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    can someone shed some light as to what happened and what changes were made to the trail? It can't really be a secret can it?

    Joe

  12. #12
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    Joe not a secret, it is just a private issue between the USFS and PAS. It is a little sensitive right now between the two, especially now with this and the Squirrel Gap issue. Last thing that needs to happen is to start speculating publicly about what happened. I have a feeling we will be hearing some info in the near future.

  13. #13
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    Can someone PM me about it? I guess I can just ride out there and look myself. I have a feeling that all this hoopla is overdone.

    Joe

  14. #14
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    Some knowledge here

    I will not go into details but moving trails/stuff around without permission and research can
    disturb some very sensitive areas and may even encroach upon a historical site.OOPS!!!!
    Even though the absolute best intention and good building practice was used in construction of the re-route prior approval and involvement from the USFS should have proceeded the work.
    With the sensitive nature of this closure please,please DO NOT use that trail and please understand that this was a huge boo-boo.
    Btw..i was not involved in the work i just have a little knowledge of the reasons behind the closure.

  15. #15
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    hmm.. What historical areas are there? Thanks for the info.

    Joe

  16. #16
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    A history lesson and story

    This is a story that can kinda be applied to this situation.
    Back in the mid-eighties the hardtimes road/gravel road that runs through the arboretum was open to car traffic from the parkway all the way to the hardtimes parking lot.
    There was no gate,no boundary fence etc.
    About half way into the gravel road an old native american village was discovered and an archealogical dig was done arounnd 1990, i think.
    Immediatly upon the discovery of the village site the road was closed" keep out" signs from the USFS were posted,etc.
    The road has and never will be re-opened for motor vehicle traffic.
    There are numerous "sites" both european settlers and native american scattered all through Pisgah,not just Bent Creek and the USFS has most of these located.
    So, do not disturb rocks,land or dig up or remove anything that is outside of an official trail cause you never know who at one time lived in the spot you are messing with.
    Permission is easier than forgivness..a very true statement.

  17. #17
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    "You son of a *****. You moved the cemetery, but you left the bodies, didn't you? You son of a *****, you left the bodies and you only moved the head stones. You only moved the head stones. Why? Why? "
    "Big Gulps huh?...Allllriggghhht....Welp, See ya later!"

  18. #18
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    Amusing for the simple fact that the the entire 1-2 miles of North Boundary is being gutted in a non-ecological way and this little incident requires a giant orange road sign. I'm Switzerland.
    I am not a "Role Model"

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkjellquist
    "You son of a *****. You moved the cemetery, but you left the bodies, didn't you? You son of a *****, you left the bodies and you only moved the head stones. You only moved the head stones. Why? Why? "
    THEY'RE HERE!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bizutch
    Amusing for the simple fact that the the entire 1-2 miles of North Boundary is being gutted in a non-ecological way and this little incident requires a giant orange road sign. I'm Switzerland.
    word!

  21. #21
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    Wow. Thanks.

    Joe

  22. #22
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    didn't the hick hucksters get handcuffed?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruso414
    didn't the hick hucksters get handcuffed?
    Pretty sure weapons were drawn too!

  24. #24
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    everybody knows freeride guys are dangerous rebels and must be taken down with extreme prejudice.

  25. #25
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    Is PAS going to explain what actually happened or are we just going to keep speculating and being all secretive and stuff. I have an inquiring mind. I need to know.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruso414
    didn't the hick hucksters get handcuffed?
    Not to mention they had to spend some quality time with Woody.

  27. #27
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  28. #28
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    hit it with the rumor mill mang

  29. #29
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    Looks like there is some building going on - some wooden bridges perhaps? Scoped it last night while riding.I wonder who's doing the work???

  30. #30
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    Looks quite "$antized", wide, and clean..............if I were the type who had to ride a hand cycle, I'd be stoked. Could this be a trend for all access trail design? Either way, I hope it opens soon.
    "Roll your own..........." http://smokebikes.com/

  31. #31
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    wow
    Last edited by motobutane; 02-04-2011 at 03:16 AM.

  32. #32
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    Seriously Moto you don't know why? Are you that in the dark about the situation or are you just trying to stoke an smoldering fire? I totally agree though somebody official should get on MTBR NC/SC forum and post the letter, not the link, that has been on the PAS website for 3+ months. If I was that official guy I would have had info out immediately. Make no mistake this has been a disaster from the beginning but we are getting close to getting it behind us. Keeping the MTBR crowd in the dark is inexcusable since this is the only place we can get info.

    Next time you go on a weekend trip with the ex. president of PAS please feel free to ask him the reason why it is not posted on MTBR. Just a thought! Don't worry I am not stalking you again. Your trip has been well documented and it sounds like you all had a great time riding some fun trails. Greg

  33. #33
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    I forgot I posted this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snototter
    Seriously Moto you don't know why? Are you that in the dark about the situation or are you just trying to stoke an smoldering fire? I totally agree though somebody official should get on MTBR NC/SC forum and post the letter, not the link, that has been on the PAS website for 3+ months. If I was that official guy I would have had info out immediately. Make no mistake this has been a disaster from the beginning but we are getting close to getting it behind us. Keeping the MTBR crowd in the dark is inexcusable since this is the only place we can get info.

    Next time you go on a weekend trip with the ex. president of PAS please feel free to ask him the reason why it is not posted on MTBR. Just a thought! Don't worry I am not stalking you again. Your trip has been well documented and it sounds like you all had a great time riding some fun trails. Greg
    Yeah I know what happened but somebody should have stepped up and posted on here.The last thing on my or Van's mind while riding is PAS or MTBR. Van claims he does not post on here and plus his mind was focused on his newly rebuilt shock that blew out on him after just 10 miles You were stalking me???? I feel like a celebrity
    Just come ride with us next time and you'll have first hand knowledge

  34. #34
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    I agree with you 100%! PAS public relation campaign SUCKED! Again though I don't even know all the details between PAS and the USFS. USFS is definitely dragging their feet with this. Two things with them: either they really do have things that are far more important than resolving this issue or they absolutely do not give a sh*t about mountain bikers in Pisgah Ranger District. Unfortunately this Sidehill crap solidified their notion of mtbr's being "rogue" and shoved us even further to the bottom of their list. These are just my opinions and do not reflect that of other PAS members.

    I think it is time for Van to give up the Maverick! Hopefully he had his back up bike. Careful I might take you up on tagging along for a ride. Riding my bike in circles on BCs fire roads is getting boring.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snototter
    I agree with you 100%! PAS public relation campaign SUCKED! Again though I don't even know all the details between PAS and the USFS. USFS is definitely dragging their feet with this. Two things with them: either they really do have things that are far more important than resolving this issue or they absolutely do not give a sh*t about mountain bikers in Pisgah Ranger District. Unfortunately this Sidehill crap solidified their notion of mtbr's being "rogue" and shoved us even further to the bottom of their list. These are just my opinions and do not reflect that of other PAS members.
    I really didn't want to get drawn back into this debate but really don't understand the backlash against the Forest Service on this. PAS didn't make a little mistake - they really, really f*cked up. Pretty much as bad as you can do is my guess (and a guess is all I have because the details are not public and likely will not be made public as that is how bad the mistake was). The FS did not cause this problem, PAS did and now it is up to the FS to clean it up. They are a bureaucracy and this 'mistake' was not on their agenda and it is going to take awhile to get cleaned up (but sounds like progress is being made). If I was the FS I'd be very curious about just what type of group PAS is that could make a mistake like this and would really be wondering about their competency to continue working in the district. I'd really like to know how PAS thought they could just go and do a reroute without authorization. Seems very basic to me.

    Here is the thing everyone needs to remember about the Forest Service: They are on the same side we are. Seriously. They are all for mixed use public land. They believe mountain bikers have their place and role in the forest just as fisherman, hikers, logging companies, horses, orv's, etc.... Dealing with them is not necessarily easy but is necessary. Without them what would Pisgah look like? The Cliffs at Looking Glass Rock?
    More Trails, Not Less

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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood
    I really didn't want to get drawn back into this debate but really don't understand the backlash against the Forest Service on this. PAS didn't make a little mistake - they really, really f*cked up. Pretty much as bad as you can do is my guess (and a guess is all I have because the details are not public and likely will not be made public as that is how bad the mistake was). The FS did not cause this problem, PAS did and now it is up to the FS to clean it up. They are a bureaucracy and this 'mistake' was not on their agenda and it is going to take awhile to get cleaned up (but sounds like progress is being made). If I was the FS I'd be very curious about just what type of group PAS is that could make a mistake like this and would really be wondering about their competency to continue working in the district. I'd really like to know how PAS thought they could just go and do a reroute without authorization. Seems very basic to me.

    Here is the thing everyone needs to remember about the Forest Service: They are on the same side we are. Seriously. They are all for mixed use public land. They believe mountain bikers have their place and role in the forest just as fisherman, hikers, logging companies, horses, orv's, etc.... Dealing with them is not necessarily easy but is necessary. Without them what would Pisgah look like? The Cliffs at Looking Glass Rock?

    Yes Driftwood Dirty Thursday did F*uck up! I really need to clarify this because there were some veteran PAS members who were not there on those DT and they should absolutely not be lumped in the DT group that did the original work. I am not nor is PAS blaming USFS for this. My frustration with the USFS and PAS is we have been pleading, behind closed doors, to fix anything and everything we possibly can to make this right, months ago. When we finally did get started the weather turned to sh*t. We have a group of 10+ people who would be out there tomorrow to fix this mess so we can move on. USFS is making a very big statement to PAS and we have no choice but to listen,wait, and obey if we want to be a group that is focused on maintaining mtbing trails in Pisgah. This is, hopefully, going to make PAS a much better group in the long run. Yes blame PAS! I have come to terms with that. In my eyes that is part of the punishment for Sidehill, peer humiliation and ridicule. You have always questioned PAS and continue to as a relevant group in Pisgah. That is your choice. If you or some one else formed a group with similar goals as PAS I would certainly donate some cash and time to your cause. I have come to a cross road with PAS and the direction it has been forced to go. If you think this is some sh*t just wait for the next round! Of course what do you care about PAS and its future? You have access to all the trails you want and thankfully take advantage of them. You don't have to pay an annual fee to have that access or sign volunteer agreements to clear deadfall. I am envious of that. I am not ripping on you Driftwood I have always known you get the whole Pisgah thing. Hell your blog is one of the purest reflections of Pisgah out there. When my friends back home ask what is Pisgah all about I send them a link to your adventures. Again though there is no alternative, no other group I can volunteer my time to with a mission to protect our areas trails for MTBing.



    USFS has always had my upmost respect. I love Pisgah! Do I agree with horses or the a** raping the timber companies dish out on our public lands, no. But I do thank the USFS rules for allowing this land to be multi-use and them protecting the same thing I am trying to volunteer to protect. Greg

  37. #37
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    I think at this point we would all just like it to be over and the ties with the FS fixed and move on [except for moto who loves good flame bait]. Once it is all sorted out I'd like to try and be a part of regular trail work in Pisgah and sent PAS an email stating such and we have been in touch. I'm sure it is all going to work out eventually

    Nice day out today. I'd better steal away for a quick ride
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  38. #38
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    ... and if we just ... Come-on Clay

    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood
    I think at this point we would all just like it to be over and the ties with the FS fixed and move on [except for moto who loves good flame bait]. Once it is all sorted out I'd like to try and be a part of regular flame baiting and sent PAS an email stating such and we have been in touch. I'm sure it is all going to work out eventually

    Nice day out today. I'd better steal away for a quick ride
    I need to register for a race and get my mind on training, this cabin fever sets in fast. Just when I get a good singletrack fix,two days later and I'm on here stirring the pot.

    Oh and I fixed your quote.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snototter
    . If you think this is some sh*t just wait for the next round!
    That sounds pretty ominous. What did you mean by "the next round"?
    "The Ice Age is comin', the Sun's zoomin' in..."

    -The Clash

  40. #40
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    The lady at the IMBA office wanted to know why I hadn't renewed my membership last week, I told her that I'm not interested in supporting groups that cause trails in my area to be closed. She told me that she would remove any affiliation with PAS if I would reconsider...... may make my selection to upstate sorba.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruso414
    The lady at the IMBA office wanted to know why I hadn't renewed my membership last week, I told her that I'm not interested in supporting groups that cause trails in my area to be closed. She told me that she would remove any affiliation with PAS if I would reconsider...... may make my selection to upstate sorba.

    I have considered the same thing and it would be sensible for me as they are closer to where i live.
    mike

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by motobutane
    Yeah I know what happened but somebody should have stepped up and posted on here.
    Since you are in the know why don't you "step up" and post what happened to cause the closure?

  43. #43
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    What, exactly has PAS done for the mountain bike community at large? I mean, besides getting trails closed? I too have wished that PAS would have made an official statement as to what happened. And I wish they would have done so in a forum that people actually use. I know what happened, as it was told to me by the USFS archaeologist that discovered the whole PAS clusterfock. I met him at BC, on a bike. He's a nice guy and seemed reasonable. He asked me if I was a PAS member. I said not anymore, but honestly, I was embarrassed to have had any affiliation with them at all. It's not a good situation. PAS has little credibility it seems. I would love to share what I know, but it seems PAS should really be the ones talking. And guess what, they ain't.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65
    What, exactly has PAS done for the mountain bike community at large? I mean, besides getting trails closed? I too have wished that PAS would have made an official statement as to what happened. And I wish they would have done so in a forum that people actually use. I know what happened, as it was told to me by the USFS archaeologist that discovered the whole PAS clusterfock. I met him at BC, on a bike. He's a nice guy and seemed reasonable. He asked me if I was a PAS member. I said not anymore, but honestly, I was embarrassed to have had any affiliation with them at all. It's not a good situation. PAS has little credibility it seems. I would love to share what I know, but it seems PAS should really be the ones talking. And guess what, they ain't.
    I got another email today from a PAS member who is changing his affiliation away from PAS as I am. It sounds like there is a SORBA group forming for the tsali area. Maybe this group could take over pisgah and bent creek once they get off the ground? If they never materialize, hopefully upstate SORBA will be able to take over the areas that PAS had.

  45. #45
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    I went to the last PAS meeting in Dec to find out about trail work (as advertised on the flyer - http://www.pisgahareasorba.org/?p=1736). I hung out for a long while and finally found someone to ask when the "meeting" was going to happen because I wanted to find out about working on trails. The reply was that it was mainly just a year-end party and not really a meeting, but they would see if anyone could talk about the status.

    Eventually, a brief summary was given of the new rules, but nothing about how to actually be involved. I put my name and email on a list, so I could receive updates for trail work opportunities. So far, I've received absolutely nothing.

    I don't know what is going on in that group, but IMO they are either completely incompetent with organizing, planning, and outreach to the community...or just don't care to involve anyone outside their clique.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65
    I know what happened, as it was told to me by the USFS archaeologist that discovered the whole PAS clusterfock.
    OK. . .
    SO WHAT HAPPENED?

    Did you all make a pinkie swear not to tell? Seems to be a lot of folks who claim to know and are upset, but just ain't "stepping up" to enlighten the rest of us. If I knew then I could actually form my own opinion.

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    .......
    Last edited by cruso414; 02-04-2011 at 02:32 PM.

  48. #48
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    A vocal MINORITY of the board of directors would agree with some of the more reasonable questions here.

    Even though some of this may be trolling, it is still what the public sees.

    Tommorrow morning, I will e-mail the board of directors a link to this thread and some direct quotes for those that won't click the link. I don't feel like dealing with it right now, my dinner is ready. That way, the people who do not agree or did not express an opinion can see what the interwebz is saying.

    I also encourage people to come to the next public meeting. Click on the link in my signature, I don't recall the exact date.

    Mike

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by pisgahrider
    OK. . .
    SO WHAT HAPPENED?

    Did you all make a pinkie swear not to tell? Seems to be a lot of folks who claim to know and are upset, but just ain't "stepping up" to enlighten the rest of us. If I knew then I could actually form my own opinion.
    They took upon themselves to do a trail relo., which anybody that knows anything about the USFS knows this is a big no no. They did it anyway and in the process encroached on an arch. site. A super, duper, big fubar. But wait, it gets better. Two PAS members took it upon themselves to complete "hotheads" with the FS and the rest is history. Several people were murdered and many more were injured. Even more still had their feelings hurt. Dogs were kicked etc... There were no pinky swears. I swear. Some of this is true. Some is not. You decide.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65
    They took upon themselves to do a trail relo., which anybody that knows anything about the USFS knows this is a big no no. They did it anyway and in the process encroached on an arch. site. A super, duper, big fubar. But wait, it gets better. Two PAS members took it upon themselves to complete "hotheads" with the FS and the rest is history. Several people were murdered and many more were injured. Even more still had their feelings hurt. Dogs were kicked etc... There were no pinky swears. I swear. Some of this is true. Some is not. You decide.
    Dang, this is too much like Faux News. I'm going to a bar to mull over the fact that I may well have to ride the road again this weekend.

    My best guess is that Indian Bones were involved, and unless I hear any different that is what I am going to spread around.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown
    A vocal MINORITY of the board of directors would agree with some of the more reasonable questions here.

    Isn't that pretty sad that a group that is supported by the public has this kind of attitude?


    Even though some of this may be trolling, it is still what the public sees.

    Yeah, anything that doesn't agree with the PAS bullshat attitude is trolling, good luck with that.
    ......

  52. #52
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    I want to be clear here; I totally agree with the sentiments expressed in this thread and am glad to see them. I've pushed from the beginning for PAS to be open about mistakes made and OWN them. I continue to think that the approach PAS is taking is completely wrong and the organization is justifiably viewed as incompetent and disorganized by many. I, however, am just one voice on the board. Snototter and TrailZen (ironically the othe people who post here) have supported me, but we're still a minority. It's the inflammatory and baiting language that is trolling, not the ideas behind the words.

    I hope this thread creates some action, god knows we need it.

  53. #53
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    Use the Internet Luke ...

  54. #54
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    At some point PAS is going to need to speak. Sorry, but that is a big part of advocacy. And not just vague letters but real discussion.

    Yes, I've already been told 'go to a meeting', but as I've asked before is there any place where mountain biking in Pisgah is discussed more than on this forum? Put your personal feelings and insecurities aside and ignore the trolls and say something and PAS's image will improve exponentially

    I heard about the last meeting and decided to pass as it sounded more like a party than a place where anything this important was going to be debated. Sounds like I guessed right.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlavC
    I went to the last PAS meeting in Dec to find out about trail work (as advertised on the flyer - http://www.pisgahareasorba.org/?p=1736). I hung out for a long while and finally found someone to ask when the "meeting" was going to happen because I wanted to find out about working on trails. The reply was that it was mainly just a year-end party and not really a meeting, but they would see if anyone could talk about the status.

    Eventually, a brief summary was given of the new rules, but nothing about how to actually be involved. I put my name and email on a list, so I could receive updates for trail work opportunities. So far, I've received absolutely nothing.

    I don't know what is going on in that group, but IMO they are either completely incompetent with organizing, planning, and outreach to the community...or just don't care to involve anyone outside their clique.
    If I go to the next meeting here is what I will be saying:

    I don't care what happened on Lower Sidehill. I care about what happens from here. I'd like to known how much damage was done with the Forest Service and if it can realistically be repaired. If there is any question about the future of PAS in Pisgah I'd suggest another group of individuals get together and start working towards a Brevard Sorba chapter.

    If the relationship is sound I would like to join PAS (yep, let my membership lapse!) and get trained and authorized to lead a small but regular trail maintenance crew, asap.
    More Trails, Not Less

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  55. #55
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    have these hippies not ever used the internet before... I mean come on it is not 1989 trolls and internet bs is everywhere

    its not like the pas forum gets a ton of traffic but they could at least post something on there

    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood
    At some point PAS is going to need to speak. Sorry, but that is a big part of advocacy. And not just vague letters but real discussion.

    Yes, I've already been told 'go to a meeting', but as I've asked before is there any place where mountain biking in Pisgah is discussed more than on this forum? Put your personal feelings and insecurities aside and ignore the trolls and say something and PAS's image will improve exponentially

    I heard about the last meeting and decided to pass as it sounded more like a party than a place where anything this important was going to be debated. Sounds like I guessed right.



    If I go to the next meeting here is what I will be saying:

    I don't care what happened on Lower Sidehill. I care about what happens from here. I'd like to known how much damage was done with the Forest Service and if it can realistically be repaired. If there is any question about the future of PAS in Pisgah I'd suggest another group of individuals get together and start working towards a Brevard Sorba chapter.

    If the relationship is sound I would like to join PAS (yep, let my membership lapse!) and get trained and authorized to lead a small but regular trail maintenance crew, asap.

  56. #56
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    First of all here is the letter that was published on our site back in October:

    As you all know, Lower Sidehill Connector has been closed for the summer. It was closed due to resource damage brought about by a miscommunication between Pisgah Area SORBA and the United States Forest Service. Quite frankly, we made a mistake and we are sorry for that. As a result, the trail has remained closed pending investigation on both parties. However, I am happy to report that we are nearing the end and hope to have a resolution in place by mid-November. The resolution has two parts: one, reopening the trail and two, implementation of policies that will help both parties meet their goals. Reopening the trail will involve tread modifications that meet USFS specifications as well as mountain biking traffic. Again, the intent of the original work as well as planned work will be to keep water shedding off the trail. Working together, we hope to accomplish that. Next and longer term, you will notice quite a few changes in how we and other trail volunteer groups perform work at the request of the USFS. For example, all trail crew leaders will attend mandatory training provided by the USFS. We have already started this process and have 15 trail crew leaders trained back in August. The training provided written clarification on permissible trail maintenance work, personal protective equipment, and the overall volunteer process from the USFS. You will see and/or hear the training outcome at your next volunteer trail work day. With that, I want to reaffirm to everyone that Pisgah Area SORBA and the USFS have all the best intentions and we (Pisgah Area SORBA) just made a mistake. As such, we appreciate everyone’s patience in this matter and hope to see you participate in our next Trail work day in the Ranger District.

    Thank you,

    Van Rogers
    Pisgah District Trail Coordinator
    DirtyMtnBikeHer
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  57. #57
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    I’m sorry so many of you have negative views about PAS. As most of you know I’m the current President. I have to say I feel like I came into presidency at a rough time and unfortunately there is no “quick fix” to our current situation. Yes, we messed up. There are times we all mess up when we do what we think at the time is right only to find out later we were wrong. As all things government there is never a quick fix. So after months of back and forth we are finally working on getting Lower Sidehill Connector fixed and want to get it reopened as soon as we can. We are working hand in hand with the forest service on this and it is taking time. This is just how it is, not because of any lack of effort.

    There are new rules that will have to be followed with the forest service and our work days in Pisgah will be limited and there will more rules to follow as far as who can work and what we can do when working. I apologize if you think we have been hiding from you. Partially we had been waiting to get the whole story before passing the story along if that makes sense. We have had this letter up on our website for a while and I do realize many of you never go there. I wish you would then you might find out what else is going on.

    So I hope putting the letter Van published back in October on here and encouraging you to come to our next chapter meeting February 21st will help you see us in a little better light. Our meetings are not a party, we discuss a lot of things at them, ask anyone who has been to one. Our intent is not to hide but sometimes it’s hard for us to speak when we ourselves feel like we are in the dark. We are working on building a positive relationship with the forest service and really want to have a positive relationship with you too. I realize we are an advocacy group and yes you all are probably correct in that we need to be more present on here. A discussion we (the board) have had over and over again. So I myself will try and get on here more often and address your thoughts and concerns. Please though come and visit our site and feel free to address your thoughts and concerns on our forum.
    DirtyMtnBikeHer
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood
    I care about what happens from here. I'd like to known how much damage was done with the Forest Service and if it can realistically be repaired. If there is any question about the future of PAS in Pisgah I'd suggest another group of individuals get together and start working towards a Brevard Sorba chapter.

    If the relationship is sound I would like to join PAS (yep, let my membership lapse!) and get trained and authorized to lead a small but regular trail maintenance crew, asap.
    I completely agree with you Driftwood. If things can be worked out and the USFS is willing to move past this, I'm in too. Otherwise, l'd like to see a Brevard Chapter get going too.

    DirtyMtnBikeHer- Thanks for letting us know that there is at least some attempt taking place to get this worked out.
    "I ride to clear my head, my head is clearer when I'm riding SS. Therefore, I choose to ride SS."~ Fullrange Drew

  59. #59
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    We are working things out with the USFS, it is moving in a ppositive direction. It just takes time and there are a lot of steps that have to be taken to get there. Please be patient with us!
    DirtyMtnBikeHer
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    http://www.pisgahareasorba.org/

  60. #60
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    Any idea who is spearheading the Brevard SORBA chapter? If the Brevard chapter gets off the ground I think it would be a good thing to have a SORBA chapter specific to the ranger district. If PAS survives, let them handle bent creek.

  61. #61
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    DirtyMtnBikeHer,

    Are you guys in politics? That's a whole lot of talking without really addressing anything.

    You claim to be waiting for the whole story before passing it along, but also state that 15 volunteers were trained back in Aug? You have known SOMETHING for at least the past six months, and everyone else still knows practically nothing. Hell, just a monthly update of where things stand would be sufficient.

    I've heard that future trail work can only be done by working through organizations. Currently, for mtb, this seems to mean PAS. However, PAS now has a poor track record of doing things right, is withholding information until you deem it to be "the right time" to release it, and basically just telling us to trust you with the future of our trails. Is it any wonder you aren't trusted or are being viewed in a negative light?

    Withholding info makes you look dishonest, whether you are or not.

    BTW, I have been to the website and searched for info. I did not find anything of substance.

  62. #62
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    Being an advocacy group there are some politics involved but we are not politicians. Keep in mind trail work is only part of what we do. We also do things like Take a Kid Mtn Biking Day, Save The Trails Challenge, Mountain Sports Festival, The Southern Summit coming up, etc. Also keep in mind we are all volunteers. We have normal jobs and lives outside PAS and on occassion LIKE TO RIDE!!! So we do everything we do for the love of our sport.

    Yes there was a training back in August but that was not to actually allow us out onto the trails. We released a statement back in October but I will admit we did keep you guys in the dark. I am doing my best to not at this point but I also can't answer all your questions because I don't know the answers. Sorry. I don't want us to look dishonest. So what do you want to know that you don't know at this point? We are still waiting on the forest service at this point and we have to be patient.
    DirtyMtnBikeHer
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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood
    ...PAS didn't make a little mistake - they really, really f*cked up. Pretty much as bad as you can do is my guess (and a guess is all I have because the details are not public and likely will not be made public as that is how bad the mistake was). The FS did not cause this problem, PAS did and now it is up to the FS to clean it up. They are a bureaucracy and this 'mistake' was not on their agenda and it is going to take awhile to get cleaned up (but sounds like progress is being made). If I was the FS I'd be very curious about just what type of group PAS is that could make a mistake like this and would really be wondering about their competency to continue working in the district. I'd really like to know how PAS thought they could just go and do a reroute without authorization. Seems very basic to me...
    Driftwood, you're correct in that PAS REALLY focked up, and I say this as insider: WE focked up big time. It is unfortunate that there are individuals within (and outside) PAS who feel that the reroute (without prior USFS review and approval) was the right thing to do. It is more unfortunate that there are individuals associated with the incident who continue to feel that no mistake was made, or that they were misled by USFS staff. It is also unfortunate that more information surrounding the incident wasn't shared with the MTB public quickly after the trail was closed. All that, however, is history and cannot be changed...

    We (PAS) initially believed that the improper reroute (with its associated resource damage) would be quickly investigated and that a USFS-approved solution--TO BE COMPLETED BY PAS, NOT THE USFS--would also quickly be determined. It simply didn't happen that way. As you point out, this incident wasn't on the USFS schedule, and while the gears of a bureaucracy turn, they sometimes turn very slowly. We (PAS) have finally received a prescription for the trail's repair, but getting the mandated materials on site and getting opportunities (and weather!) to work on the project have further delayed its completion...

    ...and a slight change of subject. Several posts have dealt with forming a SORBA chapter in Brevard: why reinvent the wheel? Do we really have enough Brevard-area volunteers to duplicate the structure of PAS and still get work done on the ground? Why not join PAS and specify that your interest is strictly Brevard-area trail work?

    TZ
    Geriatric mountain biker and trail maintainer... ...with digital braking!

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrailZen

    ...and a slight change of subject. Several posts have dealt with forming a SORBA chapter in Brevard: why reinvent the wheel? Do we really have enough Brevard-area volunteers to duplicate the structure of PAS and still get work done on the ground? Why not join PAS and specify that your interest is strictly Brevard-area trail work?

    TZ
    I think if you read this entire thread it will answer this question for you. Most of the distrust and angst towards PAS has been from the attitude that continually oozes from the present group. I think starting a new chapter with a focus on trail advocacy, community involvement, and actual riding might go a lot further than the perception that PAS has created for themselves. If you guys want to start a *****ing, moaning, and drinking club....continue on the present course.

  65. #65
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    I think the idea folks are referring to is having brevard-area riders doing their own, more-frequent, trail sessions. Another chapter would just be a PITA.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyMtnBikeHer
    Being an advocacy group there are some politics involved but we are not politicians. Keep in mind trail work is only part of what we do. We also do things like Take a Kid Mtn Biking Day, Save The Trails Challenge, Mountain Sports Festival, The Southern Summit coming up, etc. Also keep in mind we are all volunteers. We have normal jobs and lives outside PAS and on occassion LIKE TO RIDE!!! So we do everything we do for the love of our sport.
    I don't want to make light of those other programs, but is that really what an IMBA chapter in one of the most well-known mountain bike areas in the world should be focusing on?

    Sorry, but it isn't.

    PAS has been around for what, 5 or 6 years now? What has it accomplished?

    The relationship between the USFS and mountain bikers is no better than it was before PAS, and many could make a case that it's much worse. A few trails have been tweaked or rebuilt, but most are the same as they ever were. Maintenance and rebuilds by groups or motivated riders happened long before there was a responsible organization, now apparently that option has been taken away.

    No one outside of PAS is going to be patient with it. No one is going to wait for good things coming up, because history has shown that for whatever reason, that's not going to happen.

    Yes, that's harsh, but true. For an IMBA affiliate to be successful in this area, they need to be able to do a few things without question. One is to be able to snap their fingers and have at least a hundred people show up for trail work several times a year. Another is to deal with the USFS from a credible and solid position. Most importantly, it needs to be seen as organized, accountable and in control of itself. That's just not where PAS is right now.

    So your options are to find people with the time, motivation and charisma to satisfy those conditions, or don't. Bon chance...
    "The Ice Age is comin', the Sun's zoomin' in..."

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  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyMtnBikeHer
    Being an advocacy group there are some politics involved but we are not politicians. Keep in mind trail work is only part of what we do. We also do things like Take a Kid Mtn Biking Day, Save The Trails Challenge, Mountain Sports Festival, The Southern Summit coming up, etc. Also keep in mind we are all volunteers. We have normal jobs and lives outside PAS and on occassion LIKE TO RIDE!!! So we do everything we do for the love of our sport.

    Yes there was a training back in August but that was not to actually allow us out onto the trails. We released a statement back in October but I will admit we did keep you guys in the dark. I am doing my best to not at this point but I also can't answer all your questions because I don't know the answers. Sorry. I don't want us to look dishonest. So what do you want to know that you don't know at this point? We are still waiting on the forest service at this point and we have to be patient.
    I'm well aware that PAS is made up of volunteers. That fact has been repeated many times before by various members. However, IMO, being a volunteer shouldn't absolve anyone from liability, mistakes, or just doing a poor job at the position or task for which they volunteered. (This isn't referring to you, just previous interactions I've witnessed)

    I *want* to be a volunteer. I know a couple of trails that are in need of repairs that could be done easily. I would go fix them tomorrow, but I don't really like the idea of breaking federal laws. So, as I understand it...and for better or worse...I'm going to have to work as part of an organized user group such as PAS. However, PAS has make no attempt to inform the community how we can work within this new process that is being developed and mandated by the USFS.

    I don't care if you don't have all the answers. Just tell me what you DO know. What exactly are we waiting on the forest service to do? Has there been a meeting with the USFS? What was discussed and decided on? Is there an upcoming meeting? What is it hoped to accomplish? Is there a draft of the new rules and regulations? Can I view a copy? Is there an anticipated date when trail work will resume? How can I get trained/approved to do work? Are there other upcoming training sessions? Do I have to be a PAS member to do trail work? If so, do I get any benefit, or am I just paying for the privilege to "volunteer"? Perhaps being a member means that PAS will be providing the required PPE that I've heard mentioned? Who is the contact point for expressing interest in being a trail leader, or whatever the proper term is?

    There are obviously people who are ready and willing to do this type of work. And it seems we REALLY need as many people as we can get in this region. So why not make all of this information public and welcome us in?

    As far as the other work the organization does, I'm sure all of those programs have merit, but the "About Us" page at www.sorba.org states that Sorba is "...devoted to promoting land access, trail preservation, and new trail development in order to enhance mountain bike touring, racing, fun, and fellowship...". It seems to me that the focus of the organization should be on those things, especially considering the new USFS rules that are taking effect.

    If Sorba/PAS is the only path through which trail work can occur, then significant resources should be put towards making that work possible. If there is a current lack of resources (interested people) then put out a "virtual job ad" and allow others an opportunity to work with you and increase your capacity in this area. Instead of a new Brevard Sorba that was mentioned, maybe those folks could exist as a subgroup that is dedicated to trail work in the Brevard area? That is going to require more openness, tolerance, and acceptance from both sides. But it may just be the best solution. I'm going to give it another chance and come to the next meeting if I can. I'm hoping I won't be disappointed.

  68. #68
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    Ahem.
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    Last edited by Broussard; 02-04-2011 at 05:21 PM.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  69. #69
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    Innovation.

    : the introduction of something new

    : a new idea, method, or device
    Now you're cast of steel and cast aside. Broken dreams maybe, but you haven't died

  70. #70
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    I've been reading this thread for 6 months trying to figure out what the hell happened. I got some wink-wink, nudge-nudge info at the bike shop, too. It's nuts! Maybe I should look for it on Wikilinks?

    I live in SC, I don't go to meetings, I'm not "in the know", i've done a shamefully small amount of trailwork in my time, but I do pay my dues to IMBA/PAS.

    If all PAS did was move a politically correct rock or two, then I don't really feel like they deserve all this hate. If they took a less than polite and contrite attitude w/ the Forest Service, then sure, throw 'em in the ditch. If they're selling ancient artifacts on e-bay to buy Wedge IPA, then I want my dues back. But if all they did was scratch on some verboten ground by accident while they were trying to do trail work and while I was sitting on my ass doing nothing.....then I don't think I'll judge them too harshly.

  71. #71
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    I'll buy a pint for the first person to explain the connection;

    "Big Gulps huh?...Allllriggghhht....Welp, See ya later!"

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkjellquist
    I'll buy a pint for the first person to explain the connection;

    ahem Poltergeist

    where is my pint?

  73. #73
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    You'll have to do better than that! What's the connection with this scene and this thread?
    "Big Gulps huh?...Allllriggghhht....Welp, See ya later!"

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkjellquist
    "You son of a *****. You moved the cemetery, but you left the bodies, didn't you? You son of a *****, you left the bodies and you only moved the head stones. You only moved the head stones. Why? Why? "
    now do I get a pint?

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by earl06
    PAS has been around for what, 5 or 6 years now? What has it accomplished?
    I'm no longer involved in running the club but I was one of the main organizers for a number of years. Serving on the PAS board of directors, secretary, vice president, etc... I think we accomplished quite a bit in 5-6 years. We built a brand new trail system in Richmond hill. We helped build new trails in Alexander Mtn Bike park.

    We did a ton of trail work in Bent Creek with the dirty Thursday's. 98% of that work in bent creek was well respected and greatly appreciated by the land manager. So much so that ALL the trails in BC were officially assigned to PAS as the main volunteer group to maintain them. The previous group was a hiking club called Heywood Knolls In addition to the dirty Thursday's we had several HUGE national trail day work events in Bent Creek.

    We've done even more work in DuPont. I could take you on a ride through DuPont and show you numerous areas where PAS has had a huge impact. Ask the land managers at DuPont what they think of PAS.

    We have also made some strides in Pisgah. PAS has been assigned a handful of trails to maintain. In previous years we did have monthly work days on these trails. But it's harder then you'd think to pull off a good workday in remote areas of Pisgah.

    We have earned the support of the Bike dealers association. They fund our biker bucks program that is the envy of many other clubs. Many of the local shops will offer a discount to PAS members. The BRBC and the dealers have handed over the Bent Creek map program to PAS.

    We've raised funds to buy tools and a tool trailer. We've sent members to conferences to become more educated in trail building and maintenance techniques.

    And there is so much more that PAS has done in just 5-6 years that I could go on and on and on and on.

    Never the less, can we do more? Sure we can. If I did not have 3 kids, a wife, a job, a bike to ride, beer to make, etc... If I only focused all my time and energy on PAS I could have done more. I may regret that I did not do more. But I'm also proud of all that I did accomplish. If you want more from PAS then you have to give more to PAS.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlavC
    I'm well aware that PAS is made up of volunteers. That fact has been repeated many times before by various members. However, IMO, being a volunteer shouldn't absolve anyone from liability, mistakes, or just doing a poor job at the position or task for which they volunteered. (This isn't referring to you, just previous interactions I've witnessed)

    I *want* to be a volunteer. I know a couple of trails that are in need of repairs that could be done easily. I would go fix them tomorrow, but I don't really like the idea of breaking federal laws. So, as I understand it...and for better or worse...I'm going to have to work as part of an organized user group such as PAS. However, PAS has make no attempt to inform the community how we can work within this new process that is being developed and mandated by the USFS.

    I don't care if you don't have all the answers. Just tell me what you DO know. What exactly are we waiting on the forest service to do? Has there been a meeting with the USFS? What was discussed and decided on? Is there an upcoming meeting? What is it hoped to accomplish? Is there a draft of the new rules and regulations? Can I view a copy? Is there an anticipated date when trail work will resume? How can I get trained/approved to do work? Are there other upcoming training sessions? Do I have to be a PAS member to do trail work? If so, do I get any benefit, or am I just paying for the privilege to "volunteer"? Perhaps being a member means that PAS will be providing the required PPE that I've heard mentioned? Who is the contact point for expressing interest in being a trail leader, or whatever the proper term is?

    There are obviously people who are ready and willing to do this type of work. And it seems we REALLY need as many people as we can get in this region. So why not make all of this information public and welcome us in?

    As far as the other work the organization does, I'm sure all of those programs have merit, but the "About Us" page at www.sorba.org states that Sorba is "...devoted to promoting land access, trail preservation, and new trail development in order to enhance mountain bike touring, racing, fun, and fellowship...". It seems to me that the focus of the organization should be on those things, especially considering the new USFS rules that are taking effect.

    If Sorba/PAS is the only path through which trail work can occur, then significant resources should be put towards making that work possible. If there is a current lack of resources (interested people) then put out a "virtual job ad" and allow others an opportunity to work with you and increase your capacity in this area. Instead of a new Brevard Sorba that was mentioned, maybe those folks could exist as a subgroup that is dedicated to trail work in the Brevard area? That is going to require more openness, tolerance, and acceptance from both sides. But it may just be the best solution. I'm going to give it another chance and come to the next meeting if I can. I'm hoping I won't be disappointed.
    Where have you been hiding all this time? Your exactly the right person that PAS needs. PAS needs many, many, many more people on the organizational levels to get **** done.

    I pushed for a Brevard sub group like 2 years ago. There are several people down that way who want this but nobody is willing to lead. It needs a leader to tell set up the times and dates for trail work. You could probably start immediately with trail work in DuPont. Once PAS gets things cleared up with the USFS you could start working in Pisgah. PAS has more then enough tools. There are several highly skilled trail workers in the Brevard area. It just needs somebody to take the reigns and make it happen.

    Lastly, if you want all the answers on what happened in Bent Creek and what is being done to solve the issue, you need to talk with Van Rogers. His contact info is on the PAS website here LINK

    Van was the president at the time of the incident and has been working to fix the problem. Van is the current "Trail crew coordinator for the Pisgah Ranger District" So if you want to work in Pisgah you probably want to coordinate that work with Van. He has access to all of PAS tools, etc... Van does not do internet forums so I recommend calling him on the telephone or sending him an email. If you have any problems getting the info and support your looking for, do not hesitate to contact me here on mtbr through a PM.

    Also, if you get some more info on the bent creek issue please post it so we will all be on the same page.

  77. #77
    Fence guru
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    Again it is 2011 a trail cordinator that doesnt use the Internet - thru forums twitter feeds ims is not very effective ??? how does he expect to organize people and get out information ?

  78. #78
    pronounced may-duh
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    Quote Originally Posted by supercusty
    Again it is 2011 a trail cordinator that doesnt use the Internet - thru forums twitter feeds ims is not very effective ??? how does he expect to organize people and get out information ?
    I agree, he'd probably be better served to use MTBR. But for whatever reason he doesn't roll that way. Perhaps you could help him out by posting stuff here for him.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maida7
    ahem Poltergeist

    where is my pint?
    .........
    Last edited by cruso414; 02-04-2011 at 03:00 PM.

  80. #80
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    Everyone Brings Something to an Organization...

    Quote Originally Posted by cruso414
    I think if you read this entire thread it will answer this question for you. Most of the distrust and angst towards PAS has been from the attitude that continually oozes from the present group. I think starting a new chapter with a focus on trail advocacy, community involvement, and actual riding might go a lot further than the perception that PAS has created for themselves. If you guys want to start a *****ing, moaning, and drinking club....continue on the present course.
    I can't think of a single group I've been affiliated with in which I shared everyone's thoughts. values, beliefs, and attitudes. (And it would certainly be boring to be associated with a pack of clones of myself!) Everyone brings something unique to an organization. I don't have to attend PAS parties (in fact, I don't recall attending any), or Trips for Kids, or Save the Trails, or Richmond Hill to contribute to their Brevard-area trail effort. Most of us can work alongside anyone with whom we share a goal or vision like a trail repair, even if we think that individual is a complete arsehole attitude-wise. If you'd like to see PAS-organized rides in the Brevard area, bring it! If you'd like to see PAS-organized trail maintenance in the Brevard area, bring it! Let's not waste time and effort trying to start another SORBA chapter when your contribution to the existing organization could generate exactly the activities you would like to see PAS include...

    TZ
    Last edited by TrailZen; 02-05-2011 at 04:47 PM.
    Geriatric mountain biker and trail maintainer... ...with digital braking!

  81. #81
    "Ride Lots" Eddy Merckx
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maida7
    now do I get a pint?
    Yes...solid work!
    "Big Gulps huh?...Allllriggghhht....Welp, See ya later!"

  82. #82
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    Everybody must be on same cycle here

  83. #83
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    Good read,looks like there was some great trail work going on.

  84. #84
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    Anyone know what ever happened to the Randys? After getting banned they seemingly disappeared. Sure miss all their playful banter, constructive dialog and meaningful insight.

  85. #85
    Big Mac
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    Sidehill Connector

    Quote Originally Posted by Snototter View Post
    Anyone know what ever happened to the Randys? After getting banned they seemingly disappeared. Sure miss all their playful banter, constructive dialog and meaningful insight.
    Dunno. I miss them being around though. I know they migrated to f88me.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Dunno. I miss them being around though. I know they migrated to f88me.
    What's f88me?

  87. #87
    Rogue Exterminator
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch on 1206 View Post
    What's f88me?
    https://www.google.com/search?q=f88m...sm=93&ie=UTF-8
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  88. #88
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    You beat me to it. It was a spin off of MTBR that had no moderators so completly un-censored. No longer active:

    the demise of F88me

  89. #89
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    MotoB and Cruso both re-invented themselves here on MTBR under new and different handles (reincarnation). But they have not been active under those new sign-ins in quite some time.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    You beat me to it. It was a spin off of MTBR that had no moderators so completly un-censored. No longer active:

    the demise of F88me

    I'm shocked, say it's not so!!!!

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    MotoB and Cruso both re-invented themselves here on MTBR under new and different handles (reincarnation). But they have not been active under those new sign-ins in quite some time.

    Bummer, those two sure were the life of the party.

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