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  1. #1
    drunken pirate
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    PMBAR training ride 4/9

    Last weekend's ppmbar was fun so I might just do it again this coming Saturday at 8am at Smoker's Cove.

    10 historical pmbar checkpoints will go in a hat along with 1 wild card of my choosing and five will be drawn. The first two drawn will be the two mandatory cps. Last time the first two drawn were Farlow Gap and the bridge on the North Mills River trail. That's right, North Mills River. I'd expect it isn't going to be much easier this go round.

    Everyone is welcome to join me in this fun time but don't expect a race, group ride or anything other than me pulling some cps out of a hat at 8am. No rules or anything, this is just for fun and a chance to get some training in.

    And that is that.
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  2. #2
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    I'm glad I'll be working (??!)

    A wild card of your choice could be disasterous.

    Like "Hard Times Trailhead"... "Craggy Gardens"... "Bridge on Reasonover"...

    I recommend plenty of beer and whiskey

  3. #3
    drunken pirate
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    Quote Originally Posted by D ****z
    A wild card of your choice could be disasterous.

    Like "Hard Times Trailhead"... "Craggy Gardens"... "Bridge on Reasonover"...

    I recommend plenty of beer and whiskey
    Eh, after last weekend I think it would be nice to hear something like Butter Gap and Saddle Gap instead of something like Farlow and Trace when the checkpoints are read . Didn't Eric say it was going to be extra easy this year? Maybe we don't need to train after all?

    Anyone joining me?
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood
    ..... historical pmbar checkpoints will go in a hat along with 1 wild card of my choosing and five will be drawn..... Last time the first two drawn were Farlow Gap and the bridge on the North Mills River trail. That's right, North Mills River. I'd expect it isn't going to be much easier this go round.
    I'd say those two were more hysterical than historical checkpoints
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  5. #5
    drunken pirate
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridn29s
    I'd say those two were more hysterical than historical checkpoints
    Yeah, it was pretty funny when they were read
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  6. #6
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    screw this broken wing, this is a great ride generator you've got going D, wish I could participate.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood
    Anyone joining me?
    Looks like I'm in. Just don't tell Bergmark.

  8. #8
    Asheville YetiRider
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    Sounds like fun. Count me in. See you at 8:00.
    There are Mountain Bikes and then there is "The Santa Cruz High Ball"

  9. #9
    drunken pirate
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    Sweet! I've got takers! crossboy and Asheville YetiRider are in, who else is coming out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown
    screw this broken wing, this is a great ride generator you've got going D, wish I could participate.
    You are more than welcome to man one of the cp's, Mike. I'm sure we will make it to all of them this time .

    It is a good way to pick a route. Me and Broussard can never agree on a route so he came up with this idea last week to help with the indecision. The best part is unlike pmbar there are no rules or expectations - it really is just for fun (and 'training', of course).

    I have a few ideas on how we could mix it up a little that I will discuss with whoever is there before 8. Time trial to the top of Black to start? CP's on seasonal trails mixed into the hat since they are closing? Any other ideas?

    This is the last time I'll be doing this before pmbar. So come one and come all
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood
    I have a few ideas on how we could mix it up a little that I will discuss with whoever is there before 8. Time trial to the top of Black to start? CP's on seasonal trails mixed into the hat since they are closing? Any other ideas?
    Mandatory directional challenges? Up stuff we "normally" ride down?

    Is this going to come back to haunt me?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by crossboy
    Mandatory directional challenges? Up stuff we "normally" ride down?

    Is this going to come back to haunt me?



    ummmm..... that would not be a bad idea. Just sayin'.
    You can please some people sometimes but you can't please all the people all the time.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by pisgahproductions
    ummmm..... that would not be a bad idea. Just sayin'.
    See Eric, it's like you and me, we're on the same wavelength. Or something.

  13. #13
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    Out this weekend.

    I'm going do an XC race in Baton Rouge. Who's in?

    Crawfish boil at my dad's afterwards.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  14. #14
    drunken pirate
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    Quote Originally Posted by crossboy
    Mandatory directional challenges? Up stuff we "normally" ride down?

    Is this going to come back to haunt me?
    Clearly you have never been on one of my rides . I think what prompted the idea for these training rides is Broussard got tired of walking up single track all day only to ride down gravel roads

    Saturday is going to be fun. I'd like to actually try and get 4 cp's this time. [the first two cp's drawn will probably be the Kiesee Creek crossing and Spencer Gap, lol]
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  15. #15
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    I plan to be there for the hat pull, but reserve the right to do something completely different if I'm not happy with the results

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood
    Clearly you have never been on one of my rides . I think what prompted the idea for these training rides is Broussard got tired of walking up single track all day only to ride down gravel roads
    Ha, yeah -- that's how I learned to explore Pisgah. That first time up Trace was so much fun in 3 inches of snow ...

    See you tomorrow, shutdown or not.

  17. #17
    drunken pirate
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    Checkpoints are in the hat and a sample draw went perfectly. I'd imagine I'll be sitting on a bar stool with a cold beer in each hand by noon or so. This ppmbar is going to be the easiest yet

    I'll see all you fools in the morning

    Anyone who wants to join us you are more than welcome to! There is still plenty of time to train for this (eleven hours or so, that is).
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  18. #18
    drunken pirate
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    never had such a good time

    The checkpoints drawn were:

    Butter Gap - mandatory
    Suspension Bridge on North Mills River - mandatory
    Laurel Creek at Bradley Creek
    Club Gap
    Saddle Gap

    Notice that says North Mills River not South Mills River. Do you know the bridge? I also added in several cps that are on seasonal trails and not historical pmbar cps, hence butter and saddle being drawn - it made for a fun way to get to hit the seasonals one last time.

    Both crossboy and myself got all 5* and it made for a fun little metric century loop So many highlights, Black > Turkey Pen to start, 5050 > Yellow Gap > North Mills River, Club Gap > Buckwheat Knob > Bennett Gap > Coontree Gap and Cat Gap > Butter Gap out and back , FTW!

    Oh, and Carlos, I'm afraid your beer has gone bad

    More to come...


    *pictures will need to be posted by both of us**



    **not really. I am too dehydrated to post pictures. The Hub closes at 6 so I didn't have time to fully rehydrate.
    Last edited by driftwood; 04-09-2011 at 05:29 PM.
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  19. #19
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    Driftwood and Crossboy are READY! I on the other hand AM NOT......saw the red truck before we left at 10am.....7 hours latter the red truck was still there. For us it was Black Mountain - Turkey Pen - Squirrel Gap -Cantrel Creek - Horse Cove - Buck Horn - Claw Hammer-back to the start. 30 miles and I'm toast..........my kind of fun.
    "Roll your own..........." http://smokebikes.com/

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokebikes
    Driftwood and Crossboy are READY! I on the other hand AM NOT......saw the red truck before we left at 10am.....7 hours latter the red truck was still there. For us it was Black Mountain - Turkey Pen - Squirrel Gap -Cantrel Creek - Horse Cove - Buck Horn - Claw Hammer-back to the start. 30 miles and I'm toast..........my kind of fun.
    Next time I'm riding with you
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood
    Next time I'm riding with you
    Ditto.

    Quick writeup and CP photos here: http://cstrout.blogspot.com/2011/04/big-boy-loop.html

    Thanks driftwood for another fun take on the experience that is Pisgah!

    I'm eating my third dinner now. I may fall asleep with my nachos in my lap.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by crossboy
    Ditto.

    Quick writeup and CP photos here: http://cstrout.blogspot.com/2011/04/big-boy-loop.html

    Thanks driftwood for another fun take on the experience that is Pisgah!

    I'm eating my third dinner now. I may fall asleep with my nachos in my lap.
    What if I told you your Butter Gap picture isn't Butter Gap? . You missed it by a few hundred yards. Not that it matters at all. Very nice riding . Thanks for going to Butter, I would have bailed if you weren't ahead of me. 14,000' of elevation gain isn't too shabby!

    I wonder if Asheville Yeti Rider is out on his 40 mile route today? I'd better hurry and try to catch them!
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  23. #23
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    According to the new 780, it sure is - the physical gap is shown exactly there, where the singletrack intersects with Art Loeb. I know because I knew you'd call me on it, and I checked at the top, and again today. The old 780 is less clear about the physical feature, and the gap itself is pretty big right there - I have photos of all the Art Loeb signs. Anyone care to clarify?

  24. #24
    drunken pirate
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    Quote Originally Posted by crossboy
    According to the new 780, it sure is - the physical gap is shown exactly there, where the singletrack intersects with Art Loeb. I know because I knew you'd call me on it, and I checked at the top, and again today. The old 780 is less clear about the physical feature, and the gap itself is pretty big right there - I have photos of all the Art Loeb signs. Anyone care to clarify?
    Eh, perhaps it is there. I've checked all my maps and it is unclear (the new 780 map has enough errors that I am distrustful of it). The larger gap is the one a little further up the trail (where it also intersects the Art Loeb) so I have always thought it is Butter but looking at the map I can see it either way (and the locations of Sandy and Low Gaps would lean towards your site). I have gps coordinates for it and there should be a benchmark there but I'm not going up there to check . They are so close together it really doesn't matter either way, I'm just giving you a hard time

    Edit: the more I look at it you are likely right. Next time I'm up that way I'll take my gps.

    Edit #2: the more more I look at it I now believe we are both wrong The actual gap is on the Art Loeb in between the two spots in question. I have gps coordinates for all three but can find no record of a benchmark at the site. Yesterday I also noticed that they changed the signs up there. The stretch between the two spots is now signed Butter Gap Bypass as it bypasses the gap. I'll post pics later, time to go play
    Last edited by driftwood; 04-10-2011 at 09:47 AM.
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  25. #25
    Gabe.....
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    "14,000' of elevation gain isn't too shabby"................word!

    We on the other hand did 5,879 ft elevation gain with 5 hr 13 min moving................the profile and topo say it all.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails PMBAR training ride 4/9-classic_pisgah.jpg  

    PMBAR training ride 4/9-classic_pisgah_profile.jpg  

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  26. #26
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    I have a USGS topo that shows the trailhead (the old traihead anyway) at Lat: 35.25373
    Long: -82.80992. That actually matches pretty well with the trailhead on map 780. There are no benchmarks anywhere near there according to USGS.
    many gears, some pies

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridn29s
    I have a USGS topo that shows the trailhead (the old traihead anyway) at Lat: 35.25373
    Long: -82.80992. That actually matches pretty well with the trailhead on map 780. There are no benchmarks anywhere near there according to USGS.
    So where is the actual gap, Nick? At the start of Butter Gap trail where FR471D ends? Or at the intersection with the Art Loeb crossboy photographed? Or on the Art Loeb in between the two? I have gps data and pictures but things got just a wee bit interesting out in Turkey Pen this afternoon and I don't feel wading through it all right now.

    So, unless riding29's comes in with some more official data asap, as the official unoffical non-race official I do hereby declare that Butter Gap is on the Art Loeb trail and not on Butter Gap and therefore neither crossboy or myself managed to reach the mandatory checkpoint and therefore officially unofficially both DID NOT FINISH this 'training' ride.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood
    So where is the actual gap, Nick? At the start of Butter Gap trail where FR471D ends? Or at the intersection with the Art Loeb crossboy photographed? Or on the Art Loeb in between the two? I have gps data and pictures but things got just a wee bit interesting out in Turkey Pen this afternoon and I don't feel wading through it all right now.

    So, unless riding29's comes in with some more official data asap, as the official unoffical non-race official I do hereby declare that Butter Gap is on the Art Loeb trail and not on Butter Gap and therefore neither crossboy or myself managed to reach the mandatory checkpoint and therefore officially unofficially both DID NOT FINISH this 'training' ride.
    I always thought the gap was right where you drop in to Butter at the point where the 'alt' trail and Art Loeb rejoin each other. When you get to the top of 471D that's where Art Loab crosses headed toward Low Gap (back to left). Art Loab is the right fork up and over the top of the two knobs (un-named).

    Here's Butter on the USGS map (downloaded version with GeoPDF data so you can hover and get GPS coords). Look below the GA in Low Gap and you can make out the purple dashed line that represents 471D.



    Here's Butter on Nat Geo, I had never noticed before but it appears Butter Gap trail starts (on the map) at the end of 471D. I'll get out that way on Tuesday most likely and take a GPS reading at both spots.

    Last edited by ridn29s; 04-10-2011 at 07:58 PM.
    many gears, some pies

  29. #29
    drunken pirate
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridn29s
    I always thought the gap was right where you drop in to Butter at the point where the 'alt' trail and Art Loeb rejoin each other. When you get to the top of 471D that's where Art Loab crosses headed toward Low Gap (back to left). Art Loab is the right fork up and over the top of the two knobs (un-named).

    Here's Butter on the USGS map (downloaded version with GeoPDF data so you can hover and get GPS coords). Look below the GA in Low Gap and you can make out the purple dashed line that represents 471D.



    Here's Butter on Nat Geo, I had never noticed before but it appears Butter Gap trail starts (on the map) at the end of 471D. I'll get out that way on Tuesday most likely and take a GPS reading at both spots.

    Very tough to say. I have gps waypoints averaged at both locations but neither quite reaches the gap (but that could be due to the limitations of gps waypoint averaging). I'm really thinking it is just South East (closer to the shelter) of the point crossboy photographed as indicated by the USGS map you posted. It is very close but based on my recent gps tracks on Butter Gap trail I'm saying the Butter Gap trail does not cross Butter Gap. It is on the Art Loeb trail not Butter, we both dnf (though crossoboy beat me to the dnf)

    How funny is that?
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood
    Very tough to say. I have gps waypoints averaged at both locations but neither quite reaches the gap (but that could be due to the limitations of gps waypoint averaging). I'm really thinking it is just South East (closer to the shelter) of the point crossboy photographed as indicated by the USGS map you posted. It is very close but based on my recent gps tracks on Butter Gap trail I'm saying the Butter Gap trail does not cross Butter Gap. It is on the Art Loeb trail not Butter, we both dnf (though crossoboy beat me to the dnf)

    How funny is that?
    Hmmmm ... looking at the topo lines, though, would the "gap" be indicated where the dashed lines intersect -- that is, with the knob on the left and the rise to the right? That's part of the reason I believed my 780 that it was, in fact, actually Butter Gap -- that gap is fairly large and open, larger than what I read as Low Gap, the one with the stairs where 471D ends. I'm still looking for an old USGS quad here in the office, not sure we have that one.

    And you would be correct -- Butter Gap Trail does not cross Butter Gap. If you follow the trail up, you arrive at "Butter Gap" but would turn right on "Butter Gap Bypass" -- whatever that means. (I took it to mean that Art Loeb transects Butter Gap itself, but riders cannot.) The sign I photographed is at that intersection, looking north. Here's a photo of the Art Loeb signs, same point, looking south (I figured I wouldn't put my bike next to an AL sign ...):



    And for the record, yes, I'm totally geeking out on this. I'm weird that way.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridn29s
    Here's Butter on Nat Geo, I had never noticed before but it appears Butter Gap trail starts (on the map) at the end of 471D. I'll get out that way on Tuesday most likely and take a GPS reading at both spots.
    That's an old 780, which doesn't actually mark the physical feature of "Butter Gap" -- it just notes the shelter. New 780s match up closer to the USGS quad, which is why we're all sitting here on Monday trying to figure it out.

  32. #32
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    According to http://www.topoquest.com/map.php?lat...=zoomin&size=m:

    Butter Gap Gap N35.25594 W82.80985
    Low Gap Gap N35.25594 W82.81846
    Butter Gap Shelter Locale N35.25539 W82.80874

    I could totally see how the "gap" could be between the two knobs, but I'd be curious for anyone to get up there with a GPS to match these coordinates.

    Yes, I'm a geek.

  33. #33
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    GPS from 4/11

    The intersection of 471D, Art Loeb, Butter Gap is at 35.2526N, 82.8152W (marked X) on my topo pic below. Butter Gap trail marker where you drop in, also at intersection of Art Loeb, an old forest Rd, and an un-named trail is at 35.2537N, 82.8119 W. (marked Z)

    Looking at the map now I think I need to go back out again and hike up the un-named trail over the knob to find the real Butter Gap. It would also be interesting to explore the old trail down from the real Butter Gap that intersects (I'm guessing) somewhere near the creek crossing.

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  34. #34
    drunken pirate
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    That is very similar to the gps track I have for the trail as well, Nick. I was up there backpacking last year and explored a lot of those old roads and trails and have a hunch I know right where the gap is (I tried to traverse Cedar Rock Mtn. using the old trail but couldn't follow it all the way down and then looked for it again at the gap, which I now realize is Butter).

    I'm not often right, but I've never been wrong
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood
    That is very similar to the gps track I have for the trail as well, Nick. I was up there backpacking last year and explored a lot of those old roads and trails and have a hunch I know right where the gap is (I tried to traverse Cedar Rock Mtn. using the old trail but couldn't follow it all the way down and then looked for it again at the gap, which I now realize is Butter).
    So the gap is between the two knobs?

    Seriously, though -- a couple of my coworkers have bragged about the off-map trails they've "found" up there, so I'm guessing there's some serious goat tracks and road beds still hanging around.

  36. #36
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    let's go exploring

    seriously

    I've made it almost all the way to Cedar Rock going up Kuykendall Creek using old roads and trails. I've never had the time for the whole trip and then getting back to where I started. You could do it in a day if you left a bike at the bottom and started from the top.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomas_hudson
    Bike walkers. Not bike riders. I saw some of you near Squirrel this weekend. I've never seen more pin-balling and skidding in my life.
    Looking for a fight thomas? I guess you have mad skills on a bike....well prove it

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by motobutane
    Looking for a fight thomas? I guess you have mad skills on a bike....well prove it
    Moto, he woulda been a lot more convincing if he hadn't cross-posted to the PMBAR thread too. Made it way too obvious, and easy to ignore.

  39. #39
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    Trail 123A

    Um, I found the real Butter Gap trail

    The new Pisgah Map (check Pisgah Map Company or something like that) lists a trail # 123A that starts from where the 'real' Butter Gap is and intersects #123 down the cove where #123 crosses the creek (or at least near there...)

    Now I really need to go back out there and check this new trail out - it even shows as bike legal (blue) though you'd have to push up to get to it.
    many gears, some pies

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomas_hudson
    Bike walkers. Not bike riders. I saw some of you near Squirrel this weekend. I've never seen more pin-balling and skidding in my life.
    Oh sweet. Another internet hero.

    Hugs.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridn29s
    Um, I found the real Butter Gap trail

    The new Pisgah Map (check Pisgah Map Company or something like that) lists a trail # 123A that starts from where the 'real' Butter Gap is and intersects #123 down the cove where #123 crosses the creek (or at least near there...)

    Now I really need to go back out there and check this new trail out - it even shows as bike legal (blue) though you'd have to push up to get to it.
    I just saw that map as well.. I'm not sure the trail is really still there though, the old corridor is there, but a year ago it looked rather closed... Of course the new Butter Gap Bypass sign has me thinking that things are changing around there. You'd better ride right up and check it out for us all, Nick.

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  42. #42
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    Okay, here is my gps track for Butter Gap (and some other stuff) loaded into the 780 map. Follow the yellow diamonds to see the current location of the trail.



    123A on the new, new map follows what is marked on the map as the trail.

    Here is what the USFS says about the matter:

    the trail forks as it approaches Butter Gap: The left (eastern) fork, which is open to hikers only (despite the blue coloring on the 2003 Trails Illustrated™ map, which is in error), leads to Butter Gap, where a shelter and spring are nearby. The right (western) fork, which is open to mountain bikes, leads to FS 471D,
    I'm not sure how dated that info is and I can't recall seeing an active trail there but that is clearly 123A. [poke around that site a little and you'll find some interesting stuff. Cedar Rock Mtn. trail is listed as open to bikes ]

    No question about it. Neither crossboy or myself reached Butter Gap. This pmbar training ride was a horrible failure with dnf's for everyone who started
    Last edited by driftwood; 04-15-2011 at 04:57 AM.
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  43. #43
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    471D is the biggest mistake on the Nat Geo map.... it's nowhere near the top of Stone Mtn. I have some old GPS tracks just like yours - not even close to 471D.
    many gears, some pies

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood
    1,300 views and counting
    Yeah, but it's only three or four of us viewing.

    I was up there last evening, and forgot about the little holler as you begin to crest out of 471D. Coming up 471D, there is an old road bed there to the left in the holler, but 471D takes you to the right. Does that road bed lead to Low Gap?

    And I admit, I didn't get off my bike to bushwack, but I kept my eyes open, and didn't see anything that looked like it dropped down the cove. Based on what I'm hearing here, the "real" Butter Gap would be to my right, up the Art Loeb, correct? And there would be a trail "crossing" just before you finish the "Bypass" trail?

  45. #45
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    Imho

    Here's my considered opinion on the maps vs the territory question.



    Key:
    Orange is the road we 'know as' 471D
    Yellow is 471D as it is on the Nat Geo maps (and all recent maps including the new Pisgah)
    Red is the Butter Gap connector we ride to what we used to think was Butter Gap but now know better
    Purple is the road to the right of the Art Loeb trail at the intersection of 471D, Butter connector and Art Loeb
    Blue is the current Butter Gap trail (#123) we ride
    Brown is the Art Loeb trail from that intersection to the shelter.
    The uncolored dashed line trail on the map (coming over Chestnut Mtn and to where the Brown line starts) is the Art Loeb trail, then Art Loeb continues around the suth side of Cedar Rock
    The trail up and over Cedar Rock is there, but abandoned and as Clay points out it isn't that easy to follow.

    One final comment - whoever has the stupid little no-bike stickers needs help....



    You can't ride Butter @ the connector but you can ride it downhill at 'not Butter Gap'
    many gears, some pies

  46. #46
    drunken pirate
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    Looks good to me!

    Red is now signed as Butter Gap Bypass:

    More Trails, Not Less

    Adventures in Pisgah

  47. #47
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    Since this has so many posts, I'm gonna do a little gorilla advertising capitalizing on Driftwood's celebrity status. Carolina Youth Mountain Biking League has it's first race for kids this weekend at Falling Creek Camp. This is in Henderson County, NC for out-of-towners. Yes, I know. I chose the easier version of gorilla.

    Please continue to debate where Butter is. Thank you.
    "You can make some of the people happy some of the time, but you can't make all of the people happy all of the time."

  48. #48
    drunken pirate
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHIEF
    Since this has so many posts, I'm gonna do a little gorilla advertising capitalizing on Driftwood's celebrity status. Carolina Youth Mountain Biking League has it's first race for kids this weekend at Falling Creek Camp. This is in Henderson County, NC for out-of-towners. Yes, I know. I chose the easier version of gorilla.

    Please continue to debate where Butter is. Thank you.
    For the record, crossboy beat me to the top of Butter Gap trail so he is the real celebrity here . Plus, I hope by now we all have a good handle on where Butter Gap really is, we now just need to find some sucker willing to walk all the way up there with a gps!
    More Trails, Not Less

    Adventures in Pisgah

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