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  1. #1
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    A Plea for Your Consideration

    I happened across this very busy forum while looking for info on trail-building tools, which I found. Thank you! But I have a small item I've been wanting to share.

    As a hiker (Pisgah National Forest & Dupont State Forest predominantly) I've learned to recognize trails patronized by bikers by the 'hog wallers' they cause. This is not done maliciously, but by the churning of bike tires in wet areas. As the churned areas get larger, bikers try to avoid them, which spreads the churning until the trail becomes impassible without mud gear. I don't see these 'hog wallers' on trails where biking is not allowed. It's easy to see the tracks of bike tires in muddy areas where bikes are common.

    There are organized groups of hikers doing trail maintenance on a regular basis in our area. I haven't seen any comparable effort on the part of bikers. Perhaps I just don't know where to look. But it occurred to me that it would not be a big deal for every biker who goes into the woods to carry a bit of coarse gravel. If some gravel were scattered into the low spots by every biker who passed by, the trails would be more pleasant for all of us.

    I've generally found passing mountain bikers pleasant and respectful, so I salute you on behalf of those you whiz by so merrily.

  2. #2
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    As a life long hiker who was walking trails before bikes become common place on them I've seen plenty of "hog wallers" as you call them as well as braiding and cutting corners as a result of hikers. And I might add in virtually all areas of the country there are very active trail maintenance efforts by mountain bikers. Much of the work is done on multiuse trails. I don't know about Pisgah specifically but I can assure you that you've benefited from the efforts put forth by mountain bikers in your area.
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  3. #3
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    Well, I have participated in many biker-centered trail maintenance work days in Dupont, Pisgah, and Bent Creek, and I know that I have missed out on more than I've participated in. Mountain bikers are very active in trail work. I'm not sure how you've never run into them or heard about the meetings.. If it wasn't so difficult to get permission to work on the trails, we would do it more often. In fact, it might be illegal, or seriously frowned upon to dump gravel on the trails. Anyway, how would a mountain biker carry gravel? It's heavy and would make riding unsafe with pounds of gravel on his back. Unfortunately, many mountain bikers don't understand when to avoid certain trails and how to minimize trail impact. Mountain biking is a huge part of the local economy with many visitors year-round, so it's impossible to educate everybody. I don't know what to tell you other than that there are many trails in Dupont and Pisgah that are hiking only. Maybe you could stick to those.

    Ps. Horses have caused more damage to many of the trails than bikes. Maybe you could go complain to them, as well. Or better yet, start convincing people to stop voting Republican, and maybe we can get some funding for all the trails that need work.

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    Also, there are many hiking-only trails where hikers cut corners and "expand" the trails. I'm not justifying what you've witnessed, but I am trying to put it into perspective. Many mountain bikers are irresponsible with no consideration for others, but the majority are just the opposite. Just like most other groups of people.

  5. #5
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    every mountain bike education program I have encountered advises riders to avoid the kind of riding and situations that create "hog wallers." riders who create them by their bad riding habits are ignoring the IMBA. Hopefully cyclists participating in trail work days, which happen all the time on sanctioned trails, are working to undo this kind of damage and re-route trails to avoid further damage.

    for example
    A Plea for Your Consideration-cramba_ride_dirt_trails_not_mud_trails_poster.png

    https://www.imba.com/blog/hansi-johnson/mud-season

    https://sorbamidtn.org/wp-content/up...-sign-copy.jpg

    unfortunately, many riders are ignorant of the damage they cause. mountain bike advocates are constantly trying to keep everyone informed, but some new riders just think riding in the mud sounds fun and don't think about consequences.

  6. #6
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    I will say that mountain bikers tend to be more savvy trail volunteers than most other user groups where I've lived. We seek legitimacy and cooperation with landowners. Knowing that the Pisgah area is mostly USFS land, and knowing my local club's interactions with the USFS, I suspect the local club there is quite likely similar.

    The USFS is a bureaucratic mess in a lot of places. I have been a USFS employee in two different states, and a volunteer on USFS land in a few others. It is NOT easy for a volunteer group to organize and lead major trail projects on USFS land. My local club has found much richer waters, so to speak, on state and local park land. We have obtained several hundred thousand dollars in grants that we have spent on trails in state and local parklands, and counting our volunteer labor, that total balloons to somewhere in the vicinity of $2,000,000 in less than 20 years of work.

    "Hog wallers" as you so eloquently call them (we simply call them mud pits) have very little to do with the type of user on the trails. They primarily come from two factors, though there are many other contributing factors. First, trail design. HUGE role. IMBA runs trail building training and they spend entire weekends talking about things like grade, surface water runoff, erosion, cupping, fall line trails, and a whole host of physical attributes of the trail and the ground it's built upon that affect its long-term sustainability. Another big one (that is heavily dependent on local climate, soil conditions, and terrain) is trail use in poor conditions. Combine these two factors together, and you're going to wind up with huge mud pits where there are depressions in the trail that collect water. Nobody LIKES to ride or walk or hike through huge mud pits. So what happens is that some portion of every user group will skirt the mud pits and make them wider. Some portion will go through them and churn them up.

    Throwing a few handfuls of gravel onto something like that is a bull$hit patch. It solves nothing. What NEEDS to happen is that the trail in general needs to be fixed or rerouted. When that trail is an old logging road (which MANY old school USFS trails are), do you seriously expect a handful of volunteers with hand tools to make appreciable progress on it? When you're working on a piece of property with a land manager working under heavy bureaucracy that requires lengthy approvals to make a substantial and proper fix, would you rather invest that effort, or would you rather put your efforts into a land manager who is willing and able to be flexible and work with you?

    For my local club, we have invested heavily with more flexible land managers. We still ride many of the USFS trails, but the bulk of them are wide, shared with horses, and have some persistent drainage problems in low spots that need heavy equipment and/or larger scale reroutes than the USFS will permit us to do without lengthy proposals, surveys, and approvals.

    We have maintained dialog with the local USFS office, but meaningful improvements to the trails are difficult when the managers are not motivated to work WITH volunteers. It's easy for them to pass the buck entirely to the volunteers. Our local USFS district has had some recent staffing changes, and the tenor of some of those conversations has begun to change for the better. We are encouraged, and even though boots-on-the-ground progress may still be a long way off, we have enough of a backlog on state and local land to keep us busy for several years.

    Back to why you identify bike trails with these mud pits. You live in an area that is VERY popular as a mountain bike destination. Across the country. I'm planning a late April trip myself. I have at least a dozen friends who have been there since the beginning of the year, also. DuPont, in particular, has a lot of notoriety as the best slickrock riding east of Utah. The place casts a very wide net. Therefore, traffic levels are going to be very high. All things considered equally, traffic is a huge factor in trail impact. A lot of those out-of-state visitors are going to be a LOT less willing to bail on a vacation's worth of riding plans due to some wet weather. That will never change.

    There ARE trail armoring techniques that work (and look) much better than gravel, but they'll be a lot more labor intensive and possibly more expensive, too, depending on the native materials available on site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmrathbun View Post
    Perhaps I just don't know where to look.
    Pisgah Area SORBA » Trail Work Recap

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    Awesome first post! Try looking in a mirror before the next one.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    Awesome first post! Try looking in a mirror before the next one.
    That's a pretty crappy attitude.
    The OP was totally pleasant and respectful, and sounds like they're also someone that does trailwork as well as spends a lot of time on in the woods. Now that he/she is more aware of some of the trailwork that local mtbers are involved in, who knows, maybe it'll turn out that it could lead to some cooperation among groups. Which is good for everyone, specially us.

    Blown out mud pits with all sorts of widening and lines around them make me cringe, as do places where there's a bunch of deep tire tracks. People see enough of that stuff and aren't aware of how much work the relatively small amount of mtbers that perform regular trail work actually do, it can easily leave a bad impression.

    Though maybe the suggestion to carry out a little gravel individually and help fix problem areas isn't something that's really feasible, there's no reason everyone that rides a mountain bike can't make it to at least a one or two trailwork days a year. Besides being fun and rewarding, it also teaches people what really goes into keeping up with trail use, and I think you'll find the more someone builds trails, the less likely they're going to be do put undue wear on them. Besides, giving back to the trails is just part of the deal if you're a mountain biker. It's a shame more people don't do it.
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    You wound up here looking for info on trail building tools, so you assume we never maintain trails?

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    And hikers don't damage trails? Out here trails close to bikes when muddy, but not to hikers. Do you know how rough dried foot prints can be to ride on? I didn't until my FS bike was out of commission and I had to ride a loaner rigid...with tubes. Horrible experience!

    I kid, just ads some character.

    Oh, and this multi-use trail I was on is 100% maintained, funded, and expanded by MTBR's!

  12. #12
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    A Plea for Your Consideration

    Lets not turn this into a us vs them thread. He talked about his observations and we cannot crucify him for that. The area he talks about probably has 150 or more miles of trails. Do you think mountain bikers and hikers are going to cross paths often on trail work days? Hikers and bikers all have the same goal in mind. All of us want to enjoy the woods on nice days.

    Just a thought, maybe your organization could reach out to the mountain bikers in that area. I know Woody Keen is a very big advocate, especially at Du Pont. I know he could point you in the right direction and maybe both organizations could have some trail work days.

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    I see more of those in areas with equestrians. They ride more in the wet in my area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    That's a pretty crappy attitude.
    The OP was totally pleasant and respectful, and sounds like they're also someone that does trailwork as well as spends a lot of time on in the woods. Now that he/she is more aware of some of the trailwork that local mtbers are involved in, who knows, maybe it'll turn out that it could lead to some cooperation among groups. Which is good for everyone, specially us.

    Blown out mud pits with all sorts of widening and lines around them make me cringe, as do places where there's a bunch of deep tire tracks. People see enough of that stuff and aren't aware of how much work the relatively small amount of mtbers that perform regular trail work actually do, it can easily leave a bad impression.

    Though maybe the suggestion to carry out a little gravel individually and help fix problem areas isn't something that's really feasible, there's no reason everyone that rides a mountain bike can't make it to at least a one or two trailwork days a year. Besides being fun and rewarding, it also teaches people what really goes into keeping up with trail use, and I think you'll find the more someone builds trails, the less likely they're going to be do put undue wear on them. Besides, giving back to the trails is just part of the deal if you're a mountain biker. It's a shame more people don't do it.
    I am cynical in that I find it hard to believe that a person who does so much hiking has never seen mountain bikers doing trail work. I find that hard to believe, but I may be wrong? But did find their way to this site to make their opinion known. Also, they could have posted in the North Carolina forum where there regional peculiarities might be better udnerstood and received.

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    I've rarely come across mountain bikers (or any other group) actually in the process of doing trail work myself, and I've spent plenty of time on the trails. And people here post in the 'wrong' subforums a million times a day.

    Some of you guys need to unbunch the panties, for real.
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    Heck, I live in South Carolina and have done trail work not only here but in Pisgah and Dupont as well since I ride there.

    Two recent examples I participated in that you may have hiked are Black Mountain (lower) and Hickory Mountain Loop. A lot (maybe even a majority) of that work was done by mountain bikers. In fact it seems that all the volunteer days I attend are 75% or more mountain bikers both here and in WNC. Just my $0.02.

    And where I ride here, it's the hikers that are constantly cutting switchbacks and widening trails around puddles, so...

    Oh, and on many days I am also a hiker and trail runner.
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  17. #17
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    A Plea for Your Consideration

    With all due respect to the op, this is a silly, ignorant observation and post. Have a look at portions of the AT for hiker only trail damage.

  18. #18
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    I'm just going to post this, as previously posted:

    Pisgah Area SORBA » Trail Work Recap

    Really all that needs to be said.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Well, I have participated in many biker-centered trail maintenance work days in Dupont, Pisgah, and Bent Creek, and I know that I have missed out on more than I've participated in. Mountain bikers are very active in trail work. I'm not sure how you've never run into them or heard about the meetings.. If it wasn't so difficult to get permission to work on the trails, we would do it more often. In fact, it might be illegal, or seriously frowned upon to dump gravel on the trails. Anyway, how would a mountain biker carry gravel? It's heavy and would make riding unsafe with pounds of gravel on his back. Unfortunately, many mountain bikers don't understand when to avoid certain trails and how to minimize trail impact. Mountain biking is a huge part of the local economy with many visitors year-round, so it's impossible to educate everybody. I don't know what to tell you other than that there are many trails in Dupont and Pisgah that are hiking only. Maybe you could stick to those.

    Ps. Horses have caused more damage to many of the trails than bikes. Maybe you could go complain to them, as well. Or better yet, start convincing people to stop voting Republican, and maybe we can get some funding for all the trails that need work.
    Don't vote Republican? I was going to discuss this with you, but your statement is so ignorant that I chose to go on and enjoy my life instead of getting in an argument with a big government control our lives liberal mantra....have a nice day.

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    All of the trails in the forest suffer the same issues regardless of which group is allowed to use them. You see the same types of muddy spots on Hiking only trails. There are hikers and bikers going into the woods around them.

    By the way, great plan on bringing coarse gravel from where ever into the national forest. Maybe have everyone chop out a root or kill a squirrel too.

  21. #21
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    ehhhh...I don't think it's fair to point the finger at one user group for huge mudholes. I think we're all equally guilty of being tempted to stay out of the mud. Think about which trails you see this kind of mud on in pisgah...South Mills, Riverside, bottom of Avery Creek, numerous secondary roads. What they all have in common is a total lack of any "design". They are all entrenched relics of timber harvesting, many too close to water, too flat, and just inherently flawed.

    Here's a point nobody has touched on: I believe hikers and mountain bikers have philosophically different understanding and preferences for trail design and maintenance. The vast majority of hikers and hiking clubs are stuck in the past, hung up on "band-aid" fixes like sprinkling gravel, building waterbars (waterfalls), or building causeways through mudholes. They are ignoring the fact that the trail is in the wrong place to begin with. Of course this is a generalization, but on the whole, I think mountain bikers have been the primary advocates of contouring trails and intelligent design. The attitude i often hear from hikers is to the tune of: "why are these new trails so twisty and narrow?" or "the old trail was a so much more direct route to the top." I think the bottom line is hikers are more focused on the forest and surroundings while bikers are more focused on the trail.

    I grew up riding in Pisgah, and now live in northern Maryland. Around here, the local hiking club loves to pat themselves on the back for all their "maintenance hours", and will chastise any mountain biker for "damaging the trails". But what is really being accomplished by dropping 20 waterbars in a half mile of trail with a 20% average grade and water actively running down it? We all need to understand when to draw the line and close/relocate a trail rather than wasting time putting fresh paint on a rotten fence.

    Also, to the original poster, I appreciate your friendly candor. I wish others on this board understood how to discuss challenging issues like adults. Do you guys think this hiker is going to think any more highly of MTBs as a group after all the childish responses?

  22. #22
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    Actually, voting Republican does take funding away from national forests.

    Here's a link to the GOP's platform on our natural resources.

    https://www.gop.com/platform/america...ral-resources/

    "Experience has shown that, in caring for the land and water, private ownership has been our best guarantee of conscientious stewardship, while the worst instances of environmental degradation have occurred under government control. By the same token, the most economically advanced countries – those that respect and protect private property rights – also have the strongest environmental protections, because their economic progress makes possible the conservation of natural resources. In this context, Congress should reconsider whether parts of the federal government’s enormous landholdings and control of water in the West could be better used for ranching, mining, or forestry through private ownership. Timber is a renewable natural resource, which provides jobs to thousands of Americans. All efforts should be made to make federal lands managed by the U.S. Forest Service available for harvesting. The enduring truth is that people best protect what they own.

    It makes sense that those closest to a situation are best able to determine its remedy. That is why a site- and situation-specific approach to an environmental problem is more likely to solve it, instead of a national rule based on the ideological concerns of politicized central planning. We therefore endorse legislation to require congressional approval before any rule projected to cost in excess of $100 million to American consumers can go into effect.

    The Republican Party supports appointing public officials to federal agencies who will properly and correctly apply environmental laws and regulations, always in support of economic development, job creation, and American prosperity and leadership. Federal agencies charged with enforcing environmental laws must stop regulating beyond their authority. There is no place in regulatory agencies for activist regulators."

    Private Ownership. Like Duke Power and Exxon.

    Also, the most economically advanced countries, i.e. the Swedes, Finns, etc. all eschew private property rights in favor of the greater good. Because "God Given" is an archaic form of self-righteousness.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by park baker View Post
    Private Ownership. Like Duke Power and Exxon.
    Or Burt's Bees?

    http://bangordailynews.com/2011/03/2...national-park/

    Private ownership has worked out pretty well in the North Woods so far it seems to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Or better yet, start convincing people to stop voting Republican, and maybe we can get some funding for all the trails that need work.
    Where do funds come from that the government hands back out? Do democrats support mountain biking more than republicans and libertarians? Mountain biking is a small industry comparatively speaking. It just doesn't carry that much weight. I really hope you don't use this type of logic as a reason to vote one way or the other because neither party has mountain biking on their radars.

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    We have a few "Hog Wallers" on my local trails. As a percentage of the entire trail they are insignificant and when it gets dry and hot as it invariably does every year they revert back to smooth trail.

    I don't see what the big deal is. There are some braided trails around some of them and some of these alternate lines have become the new, de facto trail.

    Some of them would require extensive reworking of the trail to bypass.

    And the local mountain bike club and the forest service have bridged some of them.

    I know this will cause a lot of hate but if you view "hog wallers" as legitimate trail features requiring skill to negotiate they are not a problem at all. You can always walk your bike around them or through them if the mud scares you.

    Maybe it's more of a problem in other places. But is it that hard for a hiker to go around what is essentially a mud puddle?

    Seriously.

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    I'm checking in here from the west coast of Canada here after seeing this initially posted in General Discussion.

    I'm fortunate to have about 100Km (60 miles) of single track trail around my town. I would say that over 80Km of them were built by mountain bikers and nearly all maintenance is done by mountain bikers.

    I've ridden here for twenty years, and have been active in maintenance and building for the last ten. As well as riding them, in order to maintain them, I walk two trails every week that I built over the last two years.

    We're always happy to see, and are courteous to, people on foot, but I have an amusing and true anecdote to relate. A friend of mine was riding a trail when he found the trail blocked by a hiker who was a Sierra Club member. The guy told him that he was on a pristine hikers' trail and that he should turn around as his bike would cause irreparable damage. Keeping a straight face, my buddy told him that he'd built the trail as a mtb trail ten years previously, and participates on group rides on it every week, but added that the hiker was still welcome to walk on it. The hiker turned white and walked off without saying anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post

    Maybe you could go complain to them, as well. Or better yet, start convincing people to stop voting Republican, and maybe we can get some funding for all the trails that need work.
    Dude...fer' real?

    Even if there was truth to what you said, you must realize that the country is bankrupt, taxes are staggering, and the federal government is an avaricious, inefficient behemoth into whose slavering maw huge quantities of treasure are poured.

    In other words, it isn't that simple and there are more important things than mountain biking. I'd rather vote for conservatives (not necessarily Republicans, unfortunately) who will lower taxes and cut some of the bloat out of the government.

    It is not a bad thing for a political party to oppose government spending. Now if we could just reign in military spending, social welfare, and all the other money pits in the budget.

    Even the notion of the federal government building trails is laughable. We live in the thrall of the bureaucrats and lawyers. I could probably design and build a trail for a fraction of what it would cost the forest service. By the time they get done studying it and worrying about every little woodpecker and endangered insect the costs explode.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldfinger View Post
    I'm checking in here from the west coast of Canada here after seeing this initially posted in General Discussion.

    I'm fortunate to have about 100Km (60 miles) of single track trail around my town. I would say that over 80Km of them were built by mountain bikers and nearly all maintenance is done by mountain bikers.

    I've ridden here for twenty years, and have been active in maintenance and building for the last ten. As well as riding them, in order to maintain them, I walk two trails every week that I built over the last two years.

    We're always happy to see, and are courteous to, people on foot, but I have an amusing and true anecdote to relate. A friend of mine was riding a trail when he found the trail blocked by a hiker who was a Sierra Club member. The guy told him that he was on a pristine hikers' trail and that he should turn around as his bike would cause irreparable damage. Keeping a straight face, my buddy told him that he'd built the trail as a mtb trail ten years previously, and participates on group rides on it every week, but added that the hiker was still welcome to walk on it. The hiker turned white and walked off without saying anything.

    I've never seen hikers doing any trail work. Then again, hikers don't necessarily need the same quality of trails as we do.

  29. #29
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    This debate is the real hog waller.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    This debate is the real hog waller.
    I was just thinking it was a can of worms, but yes, you hit the nail on the head there.

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    A Plea for Your Consideration

    Please tread lightly or into the bin it goes. Nix the politics talk while we're behind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I've rarely come across mountain bikers (or any other group) actually in the process of doing trail work myself, and I've spent plenty of time on the trails. And people here post in the 'wrong' subforums a million times a day.

    Some of you guys need to unbunch the panties, for real.
    After reading it again, you are probably right. I should have just ignored the post. Other members responded in a much better way. However, it isn't the best way to get things started by asking a large group of users to start doing something that they may already be doing. I disagree on the post location, if you somehow got on MTBR out of nowhere it isn't asking much to scroll down some more.

    This isn't a post to share my trail work or experiences with hikers, equestrians, or the sierra club.

    To the OP, sorry.

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    I see now that the post as been moved where it belongs.

  34. #34
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    A Plea for Your Consideration

    How did this boondoggle turn political fer gawds sake?

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    I can't carry gravel with me because my bike shorts don't have pockets, sorry.

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    A Plea for Your Consideration

    My shorts have lots of pockets, but unfortunately, they're full of guns.

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    I've found that even though it's well known to us mountain bikers how much trail work we do, that doesn't necessarily translate to everyone else being aware of it also. Hell, I've also built built a biking trail that 'naturalists' tried to close to to bikes and even claim they built instead (sorry, but 'bushwacking thru a few times' is not 'building a trail'). I can definitely empathize with feeling the need to defending biking in general and also pointing out the fallacy and hypocrisy in many anti-bike arguments. I just got the impression the OP was asking a reasonable question in a reasonable way.

    The best thing we can do for relations with other user groups as a mtber is to do trail work. And be considerate and friendly and informative in our interactions if possible. Personally, that's worked out great for more and better riding opportunities in my area. We were pretty much painted as a scourge here by some, until people actually got to know what we were all about and how much we could contribute to the local trail system. Now we've get support and appreciation from all types of users. It's taken a lot of communication. And sweat.
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  38. #38
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    The idea of enlisting the general public to help with trail maintenance has worked before. Back story: In the 1970's the idea of hiking really took off, resulting in overuse and degradation of the alpine tundra vegetation on the adirondack high peaks (NY, designated Wilderness, hiking-only). Most everyone wanted to go to the same places, the summits, and the short plants got trampled by all those boots, died, then the rains washed away what little soil there was, only bedrock was left.

    One of the solutions that volunteer trail workers/clubs (I don't remember who) came up with was to leave piles of rocks at the trail heads, with signs asking hikers headed for a summit to please carry a rock or two in your pack and leave it up there. They did. A lot of them did. Trained volunteers arranged the stones so they would hold back the soil, and carried topsoil to the summits, too. The tundra plants grew back, it worked, things look pretty good now.

    Would it work in Pisgah? IDK. Its a very popular area by all accounts. It won't if there's no piles of rocks at the trail heads. I don't think that gravel does much of anything, use bigger stones or forget it. I think it could work, because MTBers love a physical challenge. But really, the bigger thing that could happen is hikers and bike riders would see the rock piles and signs and start thinking about something bigger than their own fun. Maybe they show up at the next work day, or join a club.
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  39. #39
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    The OP was generally polite and seemed aware that there may be a lot of trail work that he is unaware of. The truth is that are are some bikers who try to ride around puddles when it is muddy and they should either not be on the trail or they should ride through the middle of it. Of course, there are hikers who cause damage as well, but that doesn't negate the fact that mtbers also play a role.

    I think the OP deserves a bit more respect than he's gotten from a couple of posts, and hopefully a few of the responses here have informed him of some of the great lengths the mtb community goes to in order to create and maintain trails used by all sorts of users.
    "Plato is my friend, Aristotle is my friend, but my best friend is truth." - Newton

  40. #40
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    I wish hikers in my parts would hold some tools. Bikers do it all are here. Horse people are the worst. They just ride along with a sword to hack the cacti down.

  41. #41
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    The "hog waller" in most need of repair is in Washington, DC. Throwing in a majority the lobbyist in and around DC would be a good start in filling and repairing it.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by pisgahrider View Post
    The "hog waller" in most need of repair is in Washington, DC. Throwing in a majority the lobbyist in and around DC would be a good start in filling and repairing it.
    Wow, you were really working hard to turn this toward politics, weren't you?
    "Plato is my friend, Aristotle is my friend, but my best friend is truth." - Newton

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost View Post
    Wow, you were really working hard to turn this toward politics, weren't you?
    My outrage at the the corporate lobbyist that muck up "we the people" is non partisan. This scourge of money for votes visited upon our fragile democracy applies to both major parties.

    But yes, I did go off-topic, as did others, and think that the original poster was asking questions in good faith and my response was not directed at him/her or the posters who have enlighten him/her in a positive fashion. It is way too easy to get frustrated with the way "business as usual" works in a country that was originaly founded on the principle of "for the people by the people".

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by pisgahrider View Post
    My outrage at the the corporate lobbyist that muck up "we the people" is non partisan. This scourge of money for votes visited upon our fragile democracy applies to both major parties.

    But yes, I did go off-topic, as did others, and think that the original poster was asking questions in good faith and my response was not directed at him/her or the posters who have enlighten him/her in a positive fashion. It is way too easy to get frustrated with the way "business as usual" works in a country that was originaly founded on the principle of "for the people by the people".
    I didn't say it was partisan. I said it had nothing to do with the topic.
    "Plato is my friend, Aristotle is my friend, but my best friend is truth." - Newton

  45. #45
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    Dude joins mtbr, posts one time, gets 32 hits (33 including this one), starts some in-fighting among regular users and never even looks at his thread again. What the fcuk, right?

    Trolls will be trolls.
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    Yeah well, that's just, ya' know, like, your opinion, man.

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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acero853 View Post
    Dude joins mtbr, posts one time, gets 32 hits (33 including this one), starts some in-fighting among regular users and never even looks at his thread again. What the fcuk, right?

    Trolls will be trolls.
    Bb
    What makes you think he was trolling? His post seemed sincere to me. He was pretty polite as well.
    "Plato is my friend, Aristotle is my friend, but my best friend is truth." - Newton

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