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  1. #601
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    Oddly, Bent Creek gravel roads (ledford, south ridge, etc) are all just fine as of last night- I pretty much rode all the gravel within BC. Parking lot reports were that upper trails such as Ingles Field, hickory top, etc are also fine to ride with the exception of ongoing muddy spots. Lower trails and those shaded by rhodos, other evergreens- the ones I saw were pretty darn sloppy still.

  2. #602
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    The hub is still not renting bikes and advising people to stay off the trails
    https://www.facebook.com/pg/thehubpisgah/posts/

  3. #603
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    So, for those who don't know, when the hub slows down their money printing machine, it's for reals.

  4. #604
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    So, for those who don't know, when the hub slows down their money printing machine, it's for reals.
    Sycamore does the same thing now.

  5. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    So, for those who don't know, when the hub slows down their money printing machine, it's for reals.
    I think the money machine is in the bar. Al least on summer weekends.
    Friends don let friends ride road bikes.
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  6. #606
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    Oddly, Bent Creek gravel roads (ledford, south ridge, etc) are all just fine as of last night- I pretty much rode all the gravel within BC. Parking lot reports were that upper trails such as Ingles Field, hickory top, etc are also fine to ride with the exception of ongoing muddy spots. Lower trails and those shaded by rhodos, other evergreens- the ones I saw were pretty darn sloppy still.
    Thanks for the beta, I went out there after reading this and can confirm that the upper most trails are indeed fine. The lower part of Hickory top had some really sloppy bits but it improved as you went up. Oddly, Wolf Branch wasn't a shit show.

    There have clearly been some very busy beavers in Bent Creek over the last few days, many thanks to all involved.

    Clearly things will be off limits again for a few days given the rain in the forecast for Thurs/Fri, but at least things have dried out substantially.

  7. #607
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    As of this morning, Grassy, Sycamore, Starens, Black from Thrift to 5098, and 5099 are clear. North Slope is a downed tree disaster. There are a few sections that are impassable. 477 from 5098 to 276 is littered with debris, but passable. 477 entrance at 276 is barricaded off; no access.

  8. #608
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    son and I rode up clawhammer to black mountain today (1-8-19). up and over black mountain back to ranger station. 55 degrees and sunshine was all smiles.

    trail was absolutely beautiful and the mileage was 98% dry. a little trail moisture down at the bottom of black mountain, but overall the bikes were very clean.
    Maah Daah Hey

  9. #609
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    Anybody got any report on Old Fort area? Kitsuma specifically. I've got a hall pass to run over there this weekend for a couple hours, if the weather will hold...

  10. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAK656 View Post
    Anybody got any report on Old Fort area? Kitsuma specifically. I've got a hall pass to run over there this weekend for a couple hours, if the weather will hold...
    On January 26 it looked like this. Not sure about now, but temperatures have been below freezing since on many days.

  11. #611
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    My advice would be to avoid Kitsuma, based on riding up there last weekend.

    EDIT:

    Since others are chiming in and I'm not the only one that made this mistake, hopefully the torches and pitchforks won't come out.

    I rode up there last weekend and it was the worst riding conditions I've ever been in, everyone I was with agreed. It was easier to count the number of sections without mud than those with it, it was just a straight slopfest the entire way down.

    I'm not normally one to be dramatic about riding trails when they are wet, I feel like most trails in this area handle it fine, but Kitsuma was a disaster and probably best avoided for a while.

  12. #612
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    Pisgah Trail Conditions-bummer.jpg

  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    My advice would be to avoid Kitsuma, based on riding up there last weekend.

    EDIT:

    Since others are chiming in and I'm not the only one that made this mistake, hopefully the torches and pitchforks won't come out.

    I rode up there last weekend and it was the worst riding conditions I've ever been in, everyone I was with agreed. It was easier to count the number of sections without mud than those with it, it was just a straight slopfest the entire way down.

    I'm not normally one to be dramatic about riding trails when they are wet, I feel like most trails in this area handle it fine, but Kitsuma was a disaster and probably best avoided for a while.
    I've got a buddy who lives not far from there, and he noted the same thing about a week ago. We rode Dupont earlier this week and most of it was doing reasonably well, even after things started thawing. Ridgeline was the worst of what we rode, and it wasn't really rut-causing mud. just a REALLY greasy sheen over the surface. according to him, kitsuma was far worse.

  14. #614
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    My advice would be to avoid Kitsuma, based on riding up there last weekend.

    EDIT:

    Since others are chiming in and I'm not the only one that made this mistake, hopefully the torches and pitchforks won't come out.

    I rode up there last weekend and it was the worst riding conditions I've ever been in, everyone I was with agreed. It was easier to count the number of sections without mud than those with it, it was just a straight slopfest the entire way down.

    I'm not normally one to be dramatic about riding trails when they are wet, I feel like most trails in this area handle it fine, but Kitsuma was a disaster and probably best avoided for a while.
    Meanwhile, I rode there Friday after work and conditions were perfect- because they were frozen.

    That's the key this time of year. You either need to ride trails with lots of sun exposure and good drainage (Laurel-Pilot, as an example- which can still get very muddy in some sections sure) or ride when trails are frozen. Bent Creek was immaculate last night. It will be a slopfest all weekend.

  15. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    That's the key this time of year. You either need to ride trails with lots of sun exposure and good drainage (Laurel-Pilot, as an example- which can still get very muddy in some sections sure) or ride when trails are frozen. Bent Creek was immaculate last night. It will be a slopfest all weekend.
    Or more crowded than a shopping mall (well 10 years ago or so maybe) when it's not frozen. A good time to explore trails further south in GA and SC.

  16. #616
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    No doubt, timing is crucial this time of year. I also rode BC last night, and it was pretty sweet. I would imagine that earlier in the day, it was a slip fest in places. I rode across a lot of frozen ruts.


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  17. #617
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    Was thinking of heading up to Dupont in the morning. After reading the reports from today and this week now I'm having second thoughts.

  18. #618
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    It's supposed to freeze again tonight, but then stay above freezing for the foreseeable future.

    I'm wondering how long it takes your average Pisgah trail to adequately recover from freeze/thaw conditions... Sunday might be the preferred pick of the weekend.

    Rocky ridge lines are on my short list. Anyone know if the gate is open at the bottom of Wash Creek?

    Trace Ridge should be fine, Spencer will be mostly fine and Fletcher will be a bit of a wild card...

  19. #619
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    I rode Spencer / Fletcher last weekend and Spencer was in bad shape, I doubt it'll be better, worse probably. Wash Creek Road is still closed from the campground too.

  20. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solid Orange View Post
    Was thinking of heading up to Dupont in the morning. After reading the reports from today and this week now I'm having second thoughts.
    Lake Imaging area of Dupont wasn't that bad last weekend. Avoid Ridgeline, Pitch Pine south of Joanna Rd, and oddly enough, Lake Imaging Rd, which was probably worse than any trail. Hooker, Jim Branch, Three Lakes, Hickory Mountain, Hilltop were all good with only a few muddy spots.

  21. #621
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    Wilson Creek is where its at right now

  22. #622
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaXCarp View Post
    Wilson Creek is where its at right now
    I'll make another nomination...

    Star Gap > Heartbreak Ridge out-and-back was absolutely primo yesterday.

    highlights...

    newish rock armoring at the bottom of Star Gap
    tacky tacky dirt
    minimal leaf-tread issues
    those ridge views
    only one unrideable blow down from top to bottom

    go hit it!

  23. #623
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    Anyone have any thoughts on how kitsuma will look saturday? Looks like a small amount if any of rain Wednesday and Friday. Thinking this warm sunny weather might get it right for the weekend. Girlfriend has not been yet she wants to check it out. Big rock and Burnt mountain were perfect last saturday probably the dryest ive seen it in a long time except for a couple ice sheets on the first bit of slick rock on the burnt mtn climb SCARY!

  24. #624
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    Kitsuma is almost all north facing terrain. You can bank on it staying wet and muddy for many more weeks, especially towards the bottom.

  25. #625
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    Point Lookout trail closes on Monday-

    Nebo, NC, March 8, 2019 - The Point Lookout Trail on the Grandfather Ranger District of the Pisgah National Forest will temporarily close for repairs and maintenance starting Monday, March 11.

    The closure is expected to last one week or until work is complete if weather delays progress. The trail in eastern McDowell County sustained damage from a tropical storm in May, 2018. Several landslides occurred along the trail, limiting access and causing safety concerns for visitors.

    Contractors will clear the ditch line, landslides, fallen trees, and overgrown vegetation. This work is made possible by a generous contribution from the non-profit McDowell Trails Association.

  26. #626
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    Any recent reports about South Mills, specifically the section from Wolfs Ford to say Buckhorn? Rode S. Mills to Cantrell Crk back in the Fall, and there weren't any trees down, but wasn't sure how it was after that. Thinking about a big loop during the first weekend in May. I know its probably always a bit of a crapshoot, but just curious if anybody has been there relatively recently.

  27. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Murderface View Post
    Any recent reports about South Mills, specifically the section from Wolfs Ford to say Buckhorn? Rode S. Mills to Cantrell Crk back in the Fall, and there weren't any trees down, but wasn't sure how it was after that. Thinking about a big loop during the first weekend in May. I know its probably always a bit of a crapshoot, but just curious if anybody has been there relatively recently.
    The section from Wolf Ford to Buckhorn gap (aka the wheelchair ramp) is clear... at least it was 2 weeks ago.

    The section from Wolf Ford to Cantrell Creek is another story. Its terribly overgrown and would not be fun on a bike. From the intersection of Buckhorn trail to the Gauging station received some work recently and is in good shape...although still boggy the closer you get to FR476.
    On your left!

  28. #628
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    Thanks mang! Was thinking of taking Squirrel down to Wolf, then S. Mills to 476, so I think I'd miss the overgrown part.

  29. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Murderface View Post
    Thanks mang! Was thinking of taking Squirrel down to Wolf, then S. Mills to 476, so I think I'd miss the overgrown part.
    If you went from squirrel to wolf ford you would ride through the section Banjopickin was talking about.
    Sounds to me like he was saying the section from wolf to the intersection of horse cove?

  30. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by El34 View Post
    If you went from squirrel to wolf ford you would ride through the section Banjopickin was talking about.
    Sounds to me like he was saying the section from wolf to the intersection of horse cove?
    Squirrel from Horse Cove down to Wolf Ford is fine, as is S. Mills running north from Wolf Ford to 476. (PSR is running this route down S. Mills to Buckhorn this morning...)

    S. Mills running south from Wolf Ford to Cantrell is 'No Man's Land'...that's what Banjopickin was referring to as being overgrown...and, with numerous river crossings and some major felled trees blocking the trail, 'fun' is a subjective thing.


    Cantrell from Horse Cove to S.Mills is as it usually is. It won't make or break anybody's day.

  31. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by VegasSingleSpeed View Post
    S. Mills running south from Wolf Ford to Cantrell is 'No Man's Land'...that's what Banjopickin was referring to as being overgrown...and, with numerous river crossings and some major felled trees blocking the trail, 'fun' is a subjective thing.
    Everyone should try that section of trail once. It's an interesting experience and you're shins will look like they've been beat to death. The fallen, and often hidden, trees are an added bonus.

  32. #632
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy G. Parrish View Post
    Everyone should try that section of trail once. It's an interesting experience and you're shins will look like they've been beat to death. The fallen, and often hidden, trees are an added bonus.
    Agreed!

    I was riding the Huracan 300 in February, and there's a section of trail prior to the Wekiva River crossing where you couldn't see your front wheel for about 2 miles. And being dead in the middle of the night, I just had to chuckle that this was Florida's version of S. Mills River

  33. #633
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    With tomorrows forecast of thunderstorms and 30% chance of rain, you think its worth the drive out from Charlotte or is it pretty much guaranteed washout?

  34. #634
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    Saturday looks to be the better of the days this weekend, sounds like the showers on Sat are supposed to be scattered, so it'll be hit or miss. You might get rained on, you might not, hard to tell for sure, it's fairly typical of when things start to warm up.

  35. #635
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    Thanks for the insight - probably will take the chance.

  36. #636
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    Wondering if Wash Creek Rd was passable, namely the one area that kept it closed for a year or so previously. Based on the local rain gages, the 828 has been getting pounded (even by 828 standards), and I figured this part of the road could be vulnerable since it didn't appear the FS did much of a repair.

  37. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Murderface View Post
    Wondering if Wash Creek Rd was passable, namely the one area that kept it closed for a year or so previously. Based on the local rain gages, the 828 has been getting pounded (even by 828 standards), and I figured this part of the road could be vulnerable since it didn't appear the FS did much of a repair.
    Its fine... they stuck a stake in the ground with some flagging tape on it near that wash out so its safe now.
    On your left!

  38. #638
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    Damn, wonder if said flagged stake/erosion talisman is available for public purchase? I could use some on the new trail we just finished! But again, thanks for the info.

  39. #639
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    Quote Originally Posted by thatthang View Post
    Kitsuma is almost all north facing terrain. You can bank on it staying wet and muddy for many more weeks, especially towards the bottom.
    I feel that 9/10 times I've ridden Kitsuma, it's been, at best "muddy", even with weeks of no rain - puddles still stand, corners still soft. TBH - I've written it off as a possible destination when I visit the area.
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  40. #640
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    Sounds crazy. But the box turtles are laying eggs and hanging out on the trails. 2 weeks ago we saw five in the trail in 5 different places. Wednesday night we had to avoid a couple more right in the middle of the trail. Fletcher Creek had the most. We literally had to jump to avoid most of them. All I am saying it to keep and eye out and call them out if you are in a crew.
    Should you do more trail work?

  41. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bfluid View Post
    Sounds crazy. But the box turtles are laying eggs and hanging out on the trails. 2 weeks ago we saw five in the trail in 5 different places. Wednesday night we had to avoid a couple more right in the middle of the trail. Fletcher Creek had the most. We literally had to jump to avoid most of them. All I am saying it to keep and eye out and call them out if you are in a crew.
    I always see a bunch this time of year. That big wildlife opening on Fletcher is always a popular spot.

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  42. #642
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    I haven't seen this myself, but apparently Black Mountain from the top of Clawhammer Rd to Club Gap is closed off for trail work. I wouldn't be surprised if Buckwheat is, as well as Avery, given that they are the focal point of some trail maintenance going on up there.

  43. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    I haven't seen this myself, but apparently Black Mountain from the top of Clawhammer Rd to Club Gap is closed off for trail work. I wouldn't be surprised if Buckwheat is, as well as Avery, given that they are the focal point of some trail maintenance going on up there.
    Rode out there last Friday and it wasn't marked as closed. Didn't try to climb it but there was nothing that indicated it was closed at the top of Clawhammer. Obviously work could have started after that...

    Trail conditions overall were very good.

  44. #644
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acme54321 View Post
    Rode out there last Friday and it wasn't marked as closed. Didn't try to climb it but there was nothing that indicated it was closed at the top of Clawhammer. Obviously work could have started after that...

    Trail conditions overall were very good.
    Rode Upper black from clawhammer today.
    The trail work does not start until after Barnett branch trail splits off on the right. The first big climb is where the new trail works starts and goes all the way to club gap.
    It's pretty awesome. They have sculpted berms and jumps all the way down to club gap.
    They are still working on Avery and they have a trail closed ribbon there now, but we walked down part of Avery to have a look.
    They are doing the same thing on upper Avery. Jumps and big berms.
    It is going to be really nice when they get it all done.
    We ended up going down club gap since Avery was closed and they have smoothed out some of club gap.
    They brought the trail machines up club gap trail to get to the trails

  45. #645
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    The work seems to have some folks butt hurt.

    Feelings about the trail surface aside, Iíve seen photos of the work and am curious to see how long itíll last. It seems like the type of thing that will require regular maintenance, but Iím only going off photos.

  46. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    The work seems to have some folks butt hurt.
    Feelings about the trail surface aside, Iíve seen photos of the work and am curious to see how long itíll last. It seems like the type of thing that will require regular maintenance, but Iím only going off photos.
    Not sure what folks butt hurt means?

    They have added lots of water bars and drains. The work looks great so far.

    It was much needed as the trail had eroded into a horrible condition.

    I can't wait to see Avery creek section after they finish.

    Here's the section on upper black that they have finished

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Pisgah Trail Conditions-trail2.png  


  47. #647
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    I have contacted PAS a couple times about the large trees that are down across the trail on Upper Black.
    They are all grouped together pretty close.
    They say they are going to take care of them.
    A couple are chest high above the trail and maybe 36 inches in diameter
    They are located here

    Pisgah Trail Conditions-trail1.png

  48. #648
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    Quote Originally Posted by El34 View Post
    Not sure what folks butt hurt means?

    They have added lots of water bars and drains. The work looks great so far.

    It was much needed as the trail had eroded into a horrible condition.
    I'm sure you'll hear it all before it's said and done, but lots of complaints about sanitation of the trail, building of 'park' type features in Pisgah, elimination of the natural trail surface, etc. I've heard some others complaining that it won't last and will erode out quickly, but I think that's something we'll have to see about. Then you have the other side gatekeeping those that aren't happy about it because of how much work they have or haven't done on trails in the forest. Typical Brevard trail drama, I'm sure we'll see the same thing with Butter when that gets re-routed soon-ish.

    I agree it needed to be done, I think Bennett opening year round has increased traffic on the trail and it's been talked about for a while now. The only thing that bothers me is that PAS, or anyone else, didn't give any heads up as to what was going on, I would have liked to ride Avery, as it was, once more before they rebuilt it. I was supposed to go up the weekend the whole thing closed, but it took me completely off guard.

    The work needed to be done, Avery has been a mess since the first time I rode it, and that section of upper black was getting worse. I'd rather it stayed as is, but know the ranger station wouldn't allow it and I'd rather have a sanitized trail I can ride than lose one altogether. As long as the work they do lasts and is sustainable, then I'm fine with it, I just wish someone had given more notice about it than day of.

  49. #649
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    I rode that downhill section of black to Club gap a month or so ago with a few friends.
    One guy had to walk a bunch of it because his skill level was not high enough.
    He is a super strong rider on road and gravel, but just learning how to ride technical stuff
    I think he will be just fine on it now and that is a very good thing, IMO

    I can now take a couple other guys on black I know that are really strong riders but not confident enough on the technical stuff.

    There's nothing wrong with fixing fall line trails that are just a rubble rock mess.

    The top of Avery will be a welcome fix also.

    Now, they need to fix the section of lower black from the top of Hickory knob down to the first left hand turn.
    And the top of Butter will be a welcome fix also.

  50. #650
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    I disgree. We need trails your team can't ride yet. They should simply walk the sections they can't ride and have something to aspire to for their skill set. We don't ever need to dumb down trails so beginners can ride them, of course unless it's a beginner Trail. Black Mountain and Avery are not beginner trails.
    Should you do more trail work?

  51. #651
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    I have been riding those trails for 20+ years.
    That's not what they looked like even a few years ago.
    They are damaged and need repairing.

    The trails are not downhill race course trails closed to all but the super technical groups.

  52. #652
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    Pisgah is Pisgah, Dupont is Dupont, and a bike park is a bike park. The trails in Pisgah (IMO) should be maintained to keep that character while fixing the issues. Building berms and jumps isn't the only way to fix that.

  53. #653
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    Quote Originally Posted by El34 View Post
    I have been riding those trails for 20+ years.
    That's not what they looked like even a few years ago.
    They are damaged and need repairing.

    The trails are not downhill race course trails closed to all but the super technical groups.
    I was riding those trails 20 years ago as well. They've all had massive accounts of work done to them. Anytime you send that many people down a trail it's going to change, not to mention 100" of rain a year. What we don't need to do is send beginners down trails they shouldn't be on especially if you're leading them. Blaming the trails for other people skill sets is not fair. Those trails require maintenance every single year, not to keep it buttery-smooth but to keep it out of the creek. We need extremely hard trails for those that devote their lives to getting better and for those who simply want more aggressive gnarly trails. There's plenty of room in Pisgah for beginner and intermediate trails, but not at the expense of some of our classic hardcore trails. Take your friends to Bent Creek or Dupont until they are ready and encourage them to walk sections they can't ride safely yet. Just my opinion.
    Should you do more trail work?

  54. #654
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    Pisgah is by no means anywhere close to what Dupont is.
    Even the repaired Pisgah trails are more technical than what is out at Dupont.

    The repairing of trails allows more people to enjoy the trails, not just a select group.

  55. #655
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    Again, the trails have morphed intro what they are today.
    They were not that way even 10 years ago.

    The attitude that others do not belong on trails as they progressively get more damaged does not hold water.
    People who do not like the repaired trails should go to an area that caters to downhill riders and where the trails are set uip for that type of riding.

  56. #656
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    Quote Originally Posted by El34 View Post
    Again, the trails have morphed intro what they are today.
    They were not that way even 10 years ago.

    The attitude that others do not belong on trails as they progressively get more damaged does not hold water.
    People who do not like the repaired trails should go to an area that caters to downhill riders and where the trails are set uip for that type of riding.
    Your attitude comment is way off. The goal is not for everyone to be able to ride all trails. The goal is to have trails appropriate for different levels in different areas. Dumbing down Trails so that the newer, or less agressive riders can ride them is not appropriate. There are plenty of beginner trails around this area.

    It sounds like you have no idea about the amount of consistent work that goes in the Pisgah trail system.

    The goal is not to have more riders on Black Mountain, as it is one of the most heavily used trails in the forest. The goal should be to offer new and additional trails to meet the beginner and intermediate needs. Again, not at the expense of the classic trails we love.
    Should you do more trail work?

  57. #657
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    Here's a solution.
    Don't ride the repaired trails if you don't like them.
    That was easy

  58. #658
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    Quote Originally Posted by motomike View Post
    Pisgah is Pisgah, Dupont is Dupont, and a bike park is a bike park. The trails in Pisgah (IMO) should be maintained to keep that character while fixing the issues. Building berms and jumps isn't the only way to fix that.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2bfluid View Post
    I was riding those trails 20 years ago as well. They've all had massive accounts of work done to them. Anytime you send that many people down a trail it's going to change, not to mention 100" of rain a year. What we don't need to do is send beginners down trails they shouldn't be on especially if you're leading them. Blaming the trails for other people skill sets is not fair. Those trails require maintenance every single year, not to keep it buttery-smooth but to keep it out of the creek. We need extremely hard trails for those that devote their lives to getting better and for those who simply want more aggressive gnarly trails. There's plenty of room in Pisgah for beginner and intermediate trails, but not at the expense of some of our classic hardcore trails. Take your friends to Bent Creek or Dupont until they are ready and encourage them to walk sections they can't ride safely yet. Just my opinion.
    Agreed on both points. It's been awhile since I've ridden Avery, but I liked the boulder jumble on the upper part the last time I rode it a few yrs ago. It was hella fun. No, it wasn't a ripping high speed descent with jumps and drops....it was burly and technical and slow, requiring skill. Now, parts of lower Avery that were super soggy all.the.time. could use a bit of work to armor them and make them more durable.

    The top of Black should not be a place for beginners. Anyone venturing up there should know that there will be some stuff they can't ride and will have to walk. The beginner stuff should be lower in elevation and easier to access.

  59. #659
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    Yet, I run into people all the time on those trails because they read about how great the trails are on the web.
    So, unless they erase all that info on the web, they will still come here with their maps in hand and their phones on a trail map.

  60. #660
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    Quote Originally Posted by El34 View Post
    Yet, I run into people all the time on those trails because they read about how great the trails are on the web.
    So, unless they erase all that info on the web, they will still come here with their maps in hand and their phones on a trail map.
    That's the the rub. All that information about Black Mountain is there because people love Black Mountain. People need to do better research, talk to bike shops, and make better choices when they lead newer less experienced riders on the trails they want to go on personally. The Pisgah district trail system and its maintenance are absolutely tracking the right direction IMHO. More maintenance happened on The Pisgah district trail system in the last 5 years then the previous 20. I have worked with hundreds of volunteers on the Pisgah district trail system, and dumbing-down trails to make them easier has never been a priority. I doubt it ever will be.

    If you want intermediate and beginner trails then advocate for that. But don't think for a second we're going to dumb down some of the gnarliest most loved trails in Pisgah just so more people can ride them.
    Should you do more trail work?

  61. #661
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    Yet, Pisgah district approves all these trails, so how does that work?

    If they did not like the trails being repaired, I doubt they would have the same crew doing the work again.

  62. #662
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    On another note, the forest service has flagged a new route to connect 475C to Joel branch.

    Previously, Todd Branham had flagged a route 3 years ago that looked pretty good.

    Not sure why the forest service wanted to flag their own route?

    Todd's route is shown in red and forest service route in blue in this image.
    Pisgah Trail Conditions-475c.png

  63. #663
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    The forest service adopted a lot of trails that were result of the logging industry and in the days when there was so little traffic you could have a fall line trail and it stayed in place.

    75% of the existing trails would not be approved if they were new today. Some of them are historical, some of them were logging extraction routes, some of them were old Ridgeline Hunter trails and some were simply the shortest route between two points.

    The forest service wants sustainable trails that are maintainable and don't impact water quality.

    In the next few years it is likely that there could be downhill specific trails and directional loops in the forest. But that won't make it easier for new riders.

    Upper middle, and lower Black Mountain will continue to receive maintenance, but I doubt you're going to like it.
    Should you do more trail work?

  64. #664
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bfluid View Post
    Upper middle, and lower Black Mountain will continue to receive maintenance, but I doubt you're going to like it.
    I like it all
    You always get the whiners on here and on Strava any time trail work is completed.

    I ignore it all

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bfluid View Post
    I disgree. We need trails your team can't ride yet. They should simply walk the sections they can't ride and have something to aspire to for their skill set. We don't ever need to dumb down trails so beginners can ride them, of course unless it's a beginner Trail. Black Mountain and Avery are not beginner trails.
    Quoted for truth! Love the diversity in trails we have here, both up and down. Keep Pisgah Pisgah!

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  66. #666
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    Not really truth, just someones opinion and not a fact at all

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    Quote Originally Posted by El34 View Post
    Not really truth, just someones opinion and not a fact at all
    are you really arguing that the best riding destinations are NOT diverse ones?

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    Quote Originally Posted by El34 View Post
    Yet, Pisgah district approves all these trails, so how does that work?

    If they did not like the trails being repaired, I doubt they would have the same crew doing the work again.
    I find it highly unlikely, especially given recent events, that the FS rangers approved building of gap jumps in the forest.

    I would venture many of the new features will be gone the first time someone has to be extracted because they came up short on a gap or even the first time a ranger walks up there.

  69. #669
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    Quote Originally Posted by El34 View Post
    Here's a solution.
    Don't ride the repaired trails if you don't like them.
    That was easy
    Howís about you donít take beginners on trails they canít handle. Boom!


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  70. #670
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    Quote Originally Posted by El34 View Post
    Not really truth, just someones opinion and not a fact at all
    An opinion that is shared by many.


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  71. #671
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Howís about you donít take beginners on trails they canít handle. Boom!


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    No one here takes beginners on trails.
    Sounds like an assumption?

  72. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by El34 View Post
    No one here takes beginners on trails.
    Sounds like an assumption?
    No one takes beginners on trails? How do they get there? So your friends arenít beginners, is that what your saying? But they have to walk sections of trails that arenít beginner friendly? So theyíre experienced, unskilled riders? Take them to bent creek or DuPont. Dumbing trails down so your less experienced friends can ride them is silly.


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    10 years ago we were riding those same trails on less capable bikes having to pick our lines. Now you can efficiently pedal a 160mm travel bike up there and bomb down.

    There were only a few places in pisgah that intimated me 10 years ago and they still do even with a more capable bike. Let's strive to keep it that way.

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  74. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    No one takes beginners on trails? How do they get there? So your friends arenít beginners, is that what your saying? But they have to walk sections of trails that arenít beginner friendly? So theyíre experienced, unskilled riders? Take them to bent creek or DuPont. Dumbing trails down so your less experienced friends can ride them is silly.
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    You don't have a clue, so please stop with the childish banter.
    I came here to report on the trail work and that's it.

    I ride with two people that are full of titanium rods from horrible bike crashes over the years and they are in pain.
    I ride with one guy that puts in over 200 miles a week on road bike.

    Some of the trails that are now so badly eroded were not a problem, for them
    Now they are.
    So the trails have changed and now they are being repaired
    Pretty simple to understand

    One guy finishes in the top 10 in Pisgah stage races.
    Some are way stronger than many riders in Pisgah except some of the college kid riders.

    So please stop with the adolescent banter
    It's all about the trail work being done in Pisgah

  75. #675
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    Quote Originally Posted by El34 View Post
    You don't have a clue, so please stop with the childish banter.
    I came here to report on the trail work and that's it.

    I ride with two people that are full of titanium rods from horrible bike crashes over the years and they are in pain.
    I ride with one guy that puts in over 200 miles a week on road bike.

    Some of the trails that are now so badly eroded were not a problem, for them
    Now they are.
    So the trails have changed and now they are being repaired
    Pretty simple to understand

    One guy finishes in the top 10 in Pisgah stage races.
    Some are way stronger than many riders in Pisgah except some of the college kid riders.

    So please stop with the adolescent banter
    It's all about the trail work being done in Pisgah
    Donít have a clue about what? This is a discussion forum. I was referring to your ďbanterĒ about how you felt like your friends with shortcomings (is that a better description?), should be able to ride, everything is pisgah? At least thatís how it sounded. Black mountain has always been rugged. Itís changed, sure, but itís always been rugged. Some folks like that. Again, DuPont might be a better option. Man, why is this so complicated?


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    I had the chance to ride this yesterday.

    The work on Black really isn't as dramatic as people are making it out to be. The rocky, loose sections that dip down before the final peak are the same. The changes start on that formerly loose, steep-ish climb to the final peak before Black drops into the 4-way intersection with Avery/Buckwheat/Club/Black (If you rode the Brevard enduro, it's where the first stage starts). That section of climb has been smoothed out a fair bit, the grade is the same but it's much smoother.

    On the DH side leading to the intersection, there are big berms, there are doubles, some really nice rock work, and one little log drop, but I don't feel the trail is any 'easier' than it was before. Granted, I didn't ride it frequently, but it's not exactly DuPont back there and a lot of the loose/chunkiness that was there before is still present in spots. What's missing is that big eroded gully that ran through it. It's definitely different, but my impression was that the photos made it look 'worse' than it actually was.

    It's not exactly in the character of Pisgah, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's not a beginner trail, that's for sure, and I'm not sure it's much easier to ride than the last time I went down it. It's a short segment of trail and I thought the work was well done. My only complaint about the work itself is that the doubles don't have really defined ride arounds, which I think will lead to people rolling the lips and wearing them down.

    You can see some of the work on Avery from the top. That'll be the controversial one, the entrance alone has been widened by several feet and I'd expect they are following similar design principals.

  77. #677
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    We gotta remember this is Pisgah, where rain and erosion have massive impacts on the land. Any work done will be dramatically different in 3, 5, 10 years time even with routine maintenance.

    Remember when lower Black was reworked? It was a mostly featureless dirt sidewalk and folks were losing their shit. "Pisgah is ruined!!"... "Dumbing down the trails!!". I rode it yesterday and its plenty technical with tons of exposed rocks, roots, and other things to get you in trouble... AKA Pisgah. Its a far cry from the buffed out trail it was 5 years ago, and much more exiting than the original trail before the re-work.

    Give any trail work 3-5 years of Pisgah weather and it will be classic Pisgah again. If nothing else its something different to ride now...

    Although I am not a fan of man-made features (jumps, berms, etc.) in the forest but whatever... its not my back doing to digging.
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    That's how I feel about Spencer. I really, really disliked that trail after they redid it. Now, it's one of my favorites!

  79. #679
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    Riders forget that trails evolve. They move and change over time. Most of those rocks on lower black were placed by hand one at a time and buried. Over time they rise up as the tread wears away. Spencer was designed and built with this concept in mind. The recent work on Squirrel and Laurel Mtn were on the same line. Trails creep, ebb,and flow accroding to a wide variety of impacts on them. But PAS has come in and reworked/ added to almost every single project they have used a contractor for, and this will not be an exception. If you want to add more character/rocks on the next workday all you have to do is show up and work hard. Then you can add your 2Ę of character.
    Should you do more trail work?

  80. #680
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    For the record, my whole premise in this thread, is that itís wrong to alter a trail to make it easier, so that everyone can ride it. Thatís all Iím saying. I realize that maintenance sometimes needs to happen, for various reasons.


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    This Friday, I am hoping to make my first trip to ride some Pisgah trails around Brevard and am wondering about what tires to run. I currently have a Bontrager XR3 on the back and XR4 on the front of my Ripmo. Love them on my local trails in Raleigh but wonder if I'd be better off with something more aggressive.

    I have a DHF and Aggressor I could throw on but would prefer to avoid the hassle of swapping tires. Another option could be to just throw an XR4 on the back too. Looks like the weather will be dry.. maybe I'm fine with the XR3... Am I overthinking this?

  82. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarheel03 View Post
    This Friday, I am hoping to make my first trip to ride some Pisgah trails around Brevard and am wondering about what tires to run. I currently have a Bontrager XR3 on the back and XR4 on the front of my Ripmo. Love them on my local trails in Raleigh but wonder if I'd be better off with something more aggressive.

    I have a DHF and Aggressor I could throw on but would prefer to avoid the hassle of swapping tires. Another option could be to just throw an XR4 on the back too. Looks like the weather will be dry.. maybe I'm fine with the XR3... Am I overthinking this?
    You are. Those tires and bike are perfectly fine for Pisgah. Just ride and enjoy the dry trails!
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarheel03 View Post
    This Friday, I am hoping to make my first trip to ride some Pisgah trails around Brevard and am wondering about what tires to run. I currently have a Bontrager XR3 on the back and XR4 on the front of my Ripmo. Love them on my local trails in Raleigh but wonder if I'd be better off with something more aggressive.

    I have a DHF and Aggressor I could throw on but would prefer to avoid the hassle of swapping tires. Another option could be to just throw an XR4 on the back too. Looks like the weather will be dry.. maybe I'm fine with the XR3... Am I overthinking this?
    You're overthinking it, but if it was me and I had confidence that the other set of tires would seal up with no issues, I would put the aggressor combo on. Especially if you are riding more aggressive trails.

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  84. #684
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    So I went up on Black last night hiking around to see what the hubub was about....

    This is definitely something new for Pisgah... First the machine work was outstanding. Not sure who was contracted but they did a great job with drainage, flow, and the overall rehab. Great job!

    So... All I can say is that if Black was not a dedicated MTB trail before, it sure as hell is now. All the work is MTB specific with gap jumps, hips, drops, berms... tons of features.

    Nothing is mandatory and everything is either roll-able or there is a go-around option. For those looking for classic Pisgah gnar gnar, I'm sorry to say that has mostly been cleared to make these features.

    However!... I will say you can tell that with the rain, use, etc this trail will get its teeth back pretty quickly.

    The work will definitely cause plenty of hurt feelings or immense stoke depending on your feelings toward "Classic" Pisgah trails.

    Either way its done so lets enjoy it...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjopickin View Post
    Either way its done so lets enjoy it...
    Make me! Actually, I'm super excited for something new around here. Upper Black, Buckwheat, Bennett, etc are some of my favorite trails, but the things we have been missing around here are man-made features. I've been waiting for some drops and whatnot. I'm not sure putting higher risk features at the top of Black is the best idea, and I will miss the old trail, but yay for something new!

  86. #686
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjopickin View Post
    Not sure who was contracted
    https://www.naturetrailsnc.com/

    I met these guys at I9 for the pump track party/Pisgah Project bike raffle event over the weekend. They seemed like good folks and it sounded like short of moving the trail to an entirely different alignment, which has its own pitfalls, this is how they felt they could best use what was there already and improve the sustainability of it.

    Considering how quickly things can change with the periodic big dumps we get here, I'm curious how it's going to all "bed in" in a year or two.

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    Rode that section this past Sunday and lordy lordy what a hoot! Really nice work. It's actually not that dissimilar from an e-bike. The argument was never "is it fun"...umm yeah it's fun as hell. But does it belong in Pisgah some miles from any access roads? Not sure (this is an internet joke don't freak out).

    I'd disagree with you a bit banjo I thought the Pisgnar was still alive and well. Less of it but still plenty of rock gardens that'll make ya pucker.

    Stoked to see how Avery turns out and like the rest of you 828ers how this rainforest pounds the new work over coming years!

    Nice work Nature Trails

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  88. #688
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    First, almost all trail work is good trail work, thanks for doing it.

    I find the comments about what it was like 20 years ago pretty interesting. 20 years ago, Black Mountain trail was true backcountry single track, Squirrel was an overgrown goat path you could get lost on just because you couldn't find it, and Kitsuma was handlebar narrow. Most Bent Creek trails weren't even well-mapped and you had to use this little blue book somebody printed at Kinko's and sold in shops or ride with others to learn your way around. DuPont wasn't state property.

    Trails can't be this way any more because of user volume. There are exponentially more users in sheer# and the quality of our gear allows people to go further faster with less baseline ability both as a biker and a woodsperson. This user volume is, IMO, why trails have less of a chance to recover from rain and have eroded so much under the admittedly epic, climate-change affected precipitation we've been getting.

    The desire for true single track, a rugged back country experience, remains strong for many. This is why so many bandit trails are being created- user demand. Official trail work will not satisfy the group who wants this and probably shouldn't, as any good official trail is going to see so much user volume that it can't retain a backcountry experience (but can still be totally awesome, fun to ride, and provide a day in the woods).

    Random thoughts expressed.

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    For all the people who are complaining about true back country un maintained trails just go ride wilsons creek, plenty of gnar out there and ticks, lots of ticks.

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  90. #690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    First, almost all trail work is good trail work, thanks for doing it.

    I find the comments about what it was like 20 years ago pretty interesting. 20 years ago, Black Mountain trail was true backcountry single track, Squirrel was an overgrown goat path you could get lost on just because you couldn't find it, and Kitsuma was handlebar narrow. Most Bent Creek trails weren't even well-mapped and you had to use this little blue book somebody printed at Kinko's and sold in shops or ride with others to learn your way around. DuPont wasn't state property.

    Trails can't be this way any more because of user volume. There are exponentially more users in sheer# and the quality of our gear allows people to go further faster with less baseline ability both as a biker and a woodsperson. This user volume is, IMO, why trails have less of a chance to recover from rain and have eroded so much under the admittedly epic, climate-change affected precipitation we've been getting.

    The desire for true single track, a rugged back country experience, remains strong for many. This is why so many bandit trails are being created- user demand. Official trail work will not satisfy the group who wants this and probably shouldn't, as any good official trail is going to see so much user volume that it can't retain a backcountry experience (but can still be totally awesome, fun to ride, and provide a day in the woods).

    Random thoughts expressed.
    Good post and the one thing I would add is that all places have a choice. They can make trails more accessible and friendlier or harder and less accessible. A little off topic but the Jim Thorpe area in the 80's and early 90's was pretty much exactly what the Pisgah area is now (but honestly with even better trails). Many of the trails were hard to access and many were completely un-ridable except for the advanced rider. Jim Thorpe instead of welcoming in more riders and expanding the trail network went the other way and now the JT area is almost completely dead (hyperbole, I know). The sport needs people. It needs Pisgah to be good for many.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithified View Post
    I'd disagree with you a bit banjo I thought the Pisgnar was still alive and well. Less of it but still plenty of rock gardens that'll make ya pucker.
    You know you are right... I went up last night and sessioned the new trail probably 10-12 times... push up go down push up go down... and it definitely has a good bit of gnar left.

    Its like they just put select sections of smooth jumps, hips, etc in between all the gnar. By the end I was riding most everything and still had a few "pucker" moments. Especially coming over one of those rock garden/drop things and got pinballed into some chunky rocks.

    One thing though... now that its so easy to get there via Club Gap, I wonder if uphill trail traffic will increase from folks sessioning these features? I did and it was more fun than just bombing down it one and done style.

    Black Mtn. is still very much Black mtn... just with jumps.

    Go ride it yall!
    On your left!

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    Just a reminder to anyone visiting Pisgah that Butter Gap from Long Branch down and Cat Gap are not open for riding until October 15th.

    I spoke with a group of folks this morning that said tickets have apparently been given out this year and enforcement has ramped up. I don't know if that's true, but I pretty regularly meet folks from out of town that end up riding it, most are unaware it's seasonal thanks to the lack of signage.

  93. #693
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    Just a reminder to anyone visiting Pisgah that Butter Gap from Long Branch down and Cat Gap are not open for riding until October 15th.

    I spoke with a group of folks this morning that said tickets have apparently been given out this year and enforcement has ramped up. I don't know if that's true, but I pretty regularly meet folks from out of town that end up riding it, most are unaware it's seasonal thanks to the lack of signage.
    Just to be clear, butter gap is not seasonal, only the portion of long branch that includes cat gap. So you can still ride butter, you just have to do it either as an out and back, or turn left on long branch.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Just to be clear, butter gap is not seasonal, only the portion of long branch that includes cat gap. So you can still ride butter, you just have to do it either as an out and back, or turn left on long branch.
    Yup, there seems to be some confusion around that among hikers and riders, alike, given that I've been bitched at for being on the upper part of Butter during the "off season".

  95. #695
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    Yup, there seems to be some confusion around that among hikers and riders, alike, given that I've been bitched at for being on the upper part of Butter during the "off season".
    There always is confusion, for sure. I remember back in the 90ís having an encounter with a hunter in December. He told me that I wasnít even supposed to ďbe out hereĒ. I told him that the trails were closed to bikes between April 15, and October 15. His reply was, ďwell like I said, you ainít sposed to be here, itís way past OctoberĒ. Canít fix stupid.


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  96. #696
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    There always is confusion, for sure. I remember back in the 90ís having an encounter with a hunter in December. He told me that I wasnít even supposed to ďbe out hereĒ. I told him that the trails were closed to bikes between April 15, and October 15. His reply was, ďwell like I said, you ainít sposed to be here, itís way past OctoberĒ. Canít fix stupid.
    Every time I try to communicate the seasonal thing, it just pisses people off more. I've been yelled at trying to explain it to people and one of my friends was threatened last year (woman riding alone).

    One of my frustrations is that the USFS won't fix this by putting decent signage up. I asked one of the rangers and they flat out said they weren't going to do it because hikers would complain. So hikers complain because they don't know the trails are seasonal, they complain that bikes are on the trail when they shouldn't be, and they complain when we put signs up to notify people when they could or couldn't be there. Hence this confusion. The problem is we're the ones getting punished with the soon-to-be loss of North Slope and the other seasonal trails, because no one will allow us to do anything about it.

    Which is a shame. I think it's a great system that could be used to expand trail access in the forest.

  97. #697
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    I've was told by a snotty lady at Dupont that bikes weren't allowed on the gravel road area between Triple Falls and High Falls. I simply told her that they in fact are allowed and I should know since I have volunteered my time over the years to build and maintain a number of the trails in Dupont. Then I asked her how much time she spent on trail maintenance. Silence.....
    "Get busy living, or get busy dying"

  98. #698
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    Every time I try to communicate the seasonal thing, it just pisses people off more. I've been yelled at trying to explain it to people and one of my friends was threatened last year (woman riding alone).

    One of my frustrations is that the USFS won't fix this by putting decent signage up. I asked one of the rangers and they flat out said they weren't going to do it because hikers would complain. So hikers complain because they don't know the trails are seasonal, they complain that bikes are on the trail when they shouldn't be, and they complain when we put signs up to notify people when they could or couldn't be there. Hence this confusion. The problem is we're the ones getting punished with the soon-to-be loss of North Slope and the other seasonal trails, because no one will allow us to do anything about it.

    Which is a shame. I think it's a great system that could be used to expand trail access in the forest.
    The forest service is in fact working towards getting rid of all of the seasonal trails. They have flagged a route at the bottom of Butter Gap / Cat Gap that will allow mountain bikes to ride it by circling around the knob and come in at the bridge the base of Cat Gap. But until it happens....
    Should you do more trail work?

  99. #699
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    Gotta love (to hate) meat bee season. Got nailed by a couple yellowjackets somewhere in the hike-a-biking on Black yesterday. Got caught in a thunderstorm up there and was trying to get out ASAP. Little bastards.

  100. #700
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Gotta love (to hate) meat bee season. Got nailed by a couple yellowjackets somewhere in the hike-a-biking on Black yesterday. Got caught in a thunderstorm up there and was trying to get out ASAP. Little bastards.
    I've been lucky this year to only get one sting so far...Halfway up Laurel.

    Last year I got tagged in two spots during the climb up Paint Creek in Hot Springs - ended up with about 8-10 stings. Sucked.

    Found some on Long Branch too but managed to outrun them.
    "Get busy living, or get busy dying"

  101. #701
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    Information only: Yellow jackets are wasp, not bees.
    They moved into a compost barrel in my garden and now they have a huge nest inside.
    I'll have to go out at night and take care of it.

    It's great when people post locations in Pisgah where they have run into yellow jackets.
    I always make note as I approach the location
    I carry a few Benedryl in my backpack just in case.

  102. #702
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    I got zapped by about 8 of them coming down Big Rock in Dupont 2 weekends ago. That will ruin your day for sure. I cut my ride short, came home, took 2 Benadryl, and promptly passed out on the couch.
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  103. #703
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    Man, those stings inch real deep down into my muscles
    And then a large red ring starts around the sting.

    The only sting I have had that was worse was I stepped on a bumble bee nest hole in the woods and they nailed my ankle.
    The ankle swelled up huge

  104. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by El34 View Post
    Information only: Yellow jackets are wasp, not bees.
    "meat bee" is a colloquial term that refers to yellowjackets, which references the fact that they seek protein food sources (especially in late summer, to feed to the larvae in the nest) and the fact that they look like bees. That's all. It's not meant to describe their taxonomy.

    A hiker told my crew the other day about another yellowjacket nest by the concrete slab on lower Buckhorn, but none of us encountered any trouble there.

  105. #705
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    Went up Avery Creek on Monday morning and there was a large tree down blocking the road just uphill past the stables. It looked hikeable with lots of swearing involved. Or with a small saw to cut the smaller branches to clear it up and make the hike a bike easier (I carry a 15" sven saw here in Oregon but didn't fly with it since I took everything carry on).

    Went up Clawhammer to Turkey Creek for a quick Black Mountain run. All clear on that route.

  106. #706
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    For those that didn't make the meeting last week, thought it might be useful to summarize the discussion with the community, PAS, and the USFS regarding current work/projects in the forest.

    Avery Creek/Buckwheat/Upper Black
    • Work on Upper Black starts on the Rich Mountain climb and ends at the Club/Avery/Buckwheat/Black intersection
    • Avery Creek work will begin at the top and end where it flattens out near the bottom
    • Avery Creek is currently being reworked by Nature Trails LLC with a projected finish date of 9/1
    • The contract was granted without a bid period due to time constraints on the RTP grant, which would have expired Aug 1 2019 if it hadn't started (RTP grants have a 3 yr expiration apparently)
    • Other contractors were not involved due to being engaged on other projects
    • The work is in similar character to the new Upper-Upper Black, with more rock work and alt lines
    • First priority on all three is to reduce erosion
    • Buckwheat will be reworked to address eroded sections first, with some rock work and "black downhill" features added in where possible
    • Minor work was done on Club Gap to get equipment in
    • Expect Buckwheat to start immediately after Avery, so get your laps in now
    • Forest rangers seem a bit confused as to what we want. They allowed the building of doubles/rock features/gaps/etc thinking it would satisfy those concerned with trails being sanitized, but have concluded that the people who ride in this area just want 'unsustainable trails'.
    • Lots of discussion on the safety/sustainability of the features added, current status of drainage, etc
    • Similar to other projects, USFS is mandating that the trail be reworked to address sedimentation and erosion


    Middle Black Reroute
    • Projected to start this coming fall
    • Options are to re-route entirely or fix the existing trail
    • Reroute would run from the top of hickory knob down to the switchback just before the black/thrift intersection, flagged route is being evaluated
    • Re-work seems unlikely due to cost and accessibility, but is an option supposedly
    • A traditional bid period will happen to contract the work out
    • The work is required by the USFS to address erosion, which they see as unsustainable. There is no sedimentation issue.
    • Lots of complaints over how Black was 15 years ago vs now
    • There will be a chance later in the year to walk the new alignment once it's approved.


    The Big Creek/Laurel connector grant will be permitted to expire and will not be worked on due to cost and accessibility of the area, with the possibility it'll be brought up again later.

    The Butter re-route was briefly discussed, but I didn't catch a timeframe or more details.

    It was a heated discussion at times, I may have missed something, but I think I got everything that's important.

  107. #707
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    Love the Upper black work so far. Ridden it several times.
    Seeing tons of people sessioning it up and down, so seems to be a hit so far with many.

    Can't wait to see what Avery creek looks like.

    The work down from the top of Hickory knob is much needed.
    The trail has eroded so badly over the last few years.

    Thanks for the update

  108. #708
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    Quote Originally Posted by El34 View Post
    Love the Upper black work so far. Ridden it several times.
    Seeing tons of people sessioning it up and down, so seems to be a hit so far with many.

    Can't wait to see what Avery creek looks like.

    The work down from the top of Hickory knob is much needed.
    The trail has eroded so badly over the last few years.

    Thanks for the update
    It opens this weekend, if it isn't already. I saw on Instagram that they started Buckwheat clearing yesterday, so I would expect Avery is either done or very close to being done.

    PAS crews also did a bunch of clearing work on lower Avery, which was badly overgrown.

  109. #709
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    It opens this weekend, if it isn't already. I saw on Instagram that they started Buckwheat clearing yesterday, so I would expect Avery is either done or very close to being done.

    PAS crews also did a bunch of clearing work on lower Avery, which was badly overgrown.
    Awesome and thanks for the update.
    I'll be checking out Avery this weekend

  110. #710
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    Quote Originally Posted by El34 View Post
    Awesome and thanks for the update.
    I'll be checking out Avery this weekend
    I should probably caveat, don't hold me to that, there hasn't been an official announcement yet AFAIK. Matt said Sept 1 was the open date at the meeting last week, but I can't say for sure if that's the case or not.

  111. #711
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    [*] Forest rangers seem a bit confused as to what we want. They allowed the building of doubles/rock features/gaps/etc thinking it would satisfy those concerned with trails being sanitized, but have concluded that the people who ride in this area just want 'unsustainable trails'.

    I Lol'd at this... They are spot on and I bet it is confusing. Half want unsustainable fall line rock chutes (which are super fun) and the rest want sustainable trails that will last but aren't dumbed down (which are hard to make), while everyone gets mad at whatever ends up being done.

    I think the mix up on new Black is good... Seems to drain much better, there are more aggressive features and its still has plenty of chunder like old Pisgah.
    On your left!

  112. #712
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjopickin View Post
    I Lol'd at this... They are spot on and I bet it is confusing.
    I think they don't entirely grasp why people come to Pisgah to ride or understand the desire to ride those types of trails. I know a few of them ride, but they (according to their own admission) don't do it very much or ride technical trails. Personally, the nice part about Black is it's proximity to the entrance of the forest, it's challenging nature, and relatively short distance.

    I don't think trails need to be eroded to be fun, technical, or challenging, I've ridden in other areas where there was some really cool rock work or narrow trail segments that were technical without being an eroded mess. I think most would agree that Black should stay technical (aside from a minority of people that want it easier so they can ride it. That came up in the meeting also.), but sustainable and not in it's current state. I just think it'd be a shame to make that segment easier when it acts as a gateway to the more difficult trails in Pisgah, I'd like to see it retain that character if it has to change, even if it means it looks different.

  113. #713
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    I think they don't entirely grasp why people come to Pisgah to ride or understand the desire to ride those types of trails. I know a few of them ride, but they (according to their own admission) don't do it very much or ride technical trails. Personally, the nice part about Black is it's proximity to the entrance of the forest, it's challenging nature, and relatively short distance.

    I don't think trails need to be eroded to be fun, technical, or challenging, I've ridden in other areas where there was some really cool rock work or narrow trail segments that were technical without being an eroded mess. I think most would agree that Black should stay technical (aside from a minority of people that want it easier so they can ride it. That came up in the meeting also.), but sustainable and not in it's current state. I just think it'd be a shame to make that segment easier when it acts as a gateway to the more difficult trails in Pisgah, I'd like to see it retain that character if it has to change, even if it means it looks different.
    First, I haven't been on the re-worked Black yet- didn't make it there before I broke some ribs at Snowshoe (sighs...ouch that hurt anyhoo); speaking for myself only, while I totally support almost all trail work, what I don't want to see is any trail re-worked so it looks, feels, smells, whatever like a bike park in a national forest. I ride first to get in the woods and second to go fast. I like bike parks (obvs) but that's not what belongs in a national forest (my opinion). I also respect that trails are multi-use and hikers (including me) don't want that bike park feel- I'd never hike Green's Lick, for example.

    Please note that I am not saying that the re-worked section of Black is like this- haven't been on it. I'm just expressing my opinion because merikuh.

    Adding some examples of new sustainable trail work in our area that in no way has a bike park feel: Upper Spencer. Weed patch.

  114. #714
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    Are any more temporary closings planned for trail-work in the near future?

  115. #715
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pisgah View Post
    Are any more temporary closings planned for trail-work in the near future?
    I was told today that Buckwheat will close on Monday, but somewhat hearsay.

  116. #716
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    I was told today that Buckwheat will close on Monday, but somewhat hearsay.
    PAS and Nature Trails posted on Facebook and Instagram that Avery opened today (with some handwork remaining) and Buckwheat will close Monday (for 30 days) and I'm seeing those posts getting re-shared all over the place.

  117. #717
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    PAS and Nature Trails posted on Facebook and Instagram that Avery opened today (with some handwork remaining) and Buckwheat will close Monday (for 30 days) and I'm seeing those posts getting re-shared all over the place.
    I must have missed that. I blame Zuckerberg

  118. #718
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    I blame Zuckerberg
    you're right. he's a jerk.

  119. #719
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    Riding Avery and black this weekend, what's the best way to loop Avery? Excited to see the new work on both teails. Rode Bennet last weekend and heard people raving about upper black

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  120. #720
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sender420shred View Post
    Riding Avery and black this weekend, what's the best way to loop Avery? Excited to see the new work on both teails. Rode Bennet last weekend and heard people raving about upper black

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    Up clawhammer, left on black up the stairs, go straight all the way to club gap.

    I see some people riding and pushing up club gap trail.
    I don't care for that method personally.

    The ridge ride on black is really nice

  121. #721
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sender420shred View Post
    Riding Avery and black this weekend, what's the best way to loop Avery? Excited to see the new work on both teails. Rode Bennet last weekend and heard people raving about upper black

    Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk
    In addition to the route El34 mentioned (prob most popular way), sometimes when I want a longer ride with more singletrack and more of a "backcountry" feel, I'll go up Avery Creek Rd. past the stables and drop in on the lower part of the Buckhorn Gap trail. It crosses the bottom of Avery Creek trail at its low point, so you can exit that way if you want an easier pedal out. But climbing it the rest of the way gives you some technical climbing that's mostly not too steep with a couple spots you might have short hike-a-bikes. It'll dump you onto Clawhammer Rd. to finish the climb. There's also a little side hike over to Twin Falls if you want to take it.

    Just depends on what flavor you want. If you want to get the climb out of the way as fast as possible, then grind up Clawhammer the whole way.

  122. #722
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    I rode the re-worked sections of black and Avery creek today
    The trail crew did an awesome job on Avery

    A buddy of mine's daughter, her boy friend and another young guy joined us.

    At one point we stopped to check out a big gap jump and film it

    It's quite a nice gap jump
    Here's the quickie film of the jump
    https://youtu.be/xpFZmz85AWU

  123. #723
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    Quote Originally Posted by El34 View Post
    I rode the re-worked sections of black and Avery creek today
    The trail crew did an awesome job on Avery

    A buddy of mine's daughter, her boy friend and another young guy joined us.

    At one point we stopped to check out a big gap jump and film it

    It's quite a nice gap jump
    Here's the quickie film of the jump
    https://youtu.be/xpFZmz85AWU
    He looked a little sideways coming in there but stuck the landing! Nice shot.
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  124. #724
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    I rode it and thought most of it was great. The rock sections are really cool and the work done on some of the heavily eroded areas is really nice, also. Some of the berm sections were really nice and there are some nice alt lines for sure. I liked Avery the way it was before, but I enjoyed the rework, as well. I didn't make it up to old Avery that often because it's so far out of the way and I didn't like riding it alone, but I think the rework will make the effort a bit more worthwhile for different riders than the previous version was. The best thing I can compare it to is a slightly more difficult version of Lower Black, but with gaps on the kickers instead of flat landings.

    My initial thought was that someone is going to seriously hurt themselves on those gaps, the small ones anyway. They are a bit sneakier than I expected, a few of the little rock kickers seem really small until you roll up on them and realize there is a gap over the drain there. I guess people will have to rethink what riding in Pisgah is like when they ride Avery. I don't think they are necessarily a problem, but there aren't any other legal areas in the forest where that type of thing exists, so it'll require a bit of a shift in mentality when people ride it. Over time, I expect the transitions will dull down some too and make them a bit less harsh if you case them.

    I'm also not entirely sure how a few of the sections are going to not end up eroded again in a matter of weeks or months, mainly that gully about halfway down before it intersects with a road, I expected them to open that up a bit more, but it seems like it's gonna drain the same and end up eroded. Same with that eroded left hander and the short narrow bit near the bottom. I guess time will tell, but I felt the other parts of the trail were great.

  125. #725
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    Just a heads up for those that use 5018 as a way to get to Horse Cove/Squirrel gap
    That's the gated grassy road from 476 up to where you can drop into Horse Cove trail

    A tractor with the boom mower head cleared all the way along both sides of 5018

    The debris is still all over the road and there is a bunch of it.
    So 3.8 miles of debris

    The tractor was still parked on lower 5018 this morning 09/08/2019

    Not sure if or when they have plans to remove all the debris in the road?

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Pisgah Trail Conditions-5018.png  


  126. #726
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    Yellow Jacket nest on upper Thrift Cove on the left as you're climbing about 1/4 mile past the little rock garden. SOB's got me 6 times... Maybe I should climb faster?
    On your left!

  127. #727
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjopickin View Post
    Yellow Jacket nest on upper Thrift Cove on the left as you're climbing about 1/4 mile past the little rock garden. SOB's got me 6 times... Maybe I should climb faster?
    Thanks for the heads up.
    I was just there a few days ago
    I'll keep an eye out for them

    Is the rock garden that short downhill section and then a left turn after the rocks?

  128. #728
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    Quote Originally Posted by El34 View Post
    Is the rock garden that short downhill section and then a left turn after the rocks?
    Correct!... About 1/4 mile past that right before you start the final DH into lower Black Mtn.
    On your left!

  129. #729
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjopickin View Post
    Correct!... About 1/4 mile past that right before you start the final DH into lower Black Mtn.
    Ok, thanks
    That's right before the small stream crossing where my dogs get water

  130. #730
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    They've been really bad in Pisgah this year. I've seen several nests and keep hearing about more online. I think most recent I read about was one near Club Gap on the road and on Daniel's Ridge (bridge side). There was another recently on the way up to Hickory Knob, but not sure if it's still there or not

  131. #731
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    I rode Avery 4yrs ago on a rigid.

    My girl and I rode Avery this past Saturday.

    Since it had been reworked, I gambled that she could ride most of it, and she did.

    I liked the old Avery better but I had a blast nonetheless.

    Trail condition was awesome; started raining while coming down the trail!
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  132. #732
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    Oh, btw, Avery is fast a/f now!

    ... peeps coming up the trail may appear rather suddenly. Use caution.

    A gaggle of hikers were on the way up just as we finished. No issues.
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  133. #733
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    Which trails are running good for this weekend / or which are in bad shape

  134. #734
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    Near three inches of rain today and tomorrow... probably none!

  135. #735
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    Quote Originally Posted by yem999 View Post
    Which trails are running good for this weekend / or which are in bad shape
    Most will probably be fine, I'd probably avoid Kitsuma and the trails that tend to stay pretty swampy like Butter and Cat Gap. I wouldn't let the quantity of rain be of much concern, every time someone quotes how much rain we've had and I go ride, it's more often than not fine. Most of Pisgah drains real well, which it'll have both Thurs PM and all day Friday to do.

    I would keep an eye on DuPont to see if they close or not, Bent Creek is also best avoided when it's been raining.

  136. #736
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    Road this past Monday and it was glorious dirt
    Shuttled all up Avery Creek road probably 8 times and everything was in good shape save for the end of Avery

    Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

  137. #737
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    Most will probably be fine, I'd probably avoid Kitsuma and the trails that tend to stay pretty swampy like Butter and Cat Gap. I wouldn't let the quantity of rain be of much concern, every time someone quotes how much rain we've had and I go ride, it's more often than not fine. Most of Pisgah drains real well, which it'll have both Thurs PM and all day Friday to do.

    I would keep an eye on DuPont to see if they close or not, Bent Creek is also best avoided when it's been raining.
    Agree with this. I'd say by Sunday most everything will be good to go. Rode Avery yesterday and it was perfect except for the last part which is usually wet. Dupont has certain areas that don't drain well and some that never do (Turkey Knob--which is one of my favorites but it always has wet areas). Reasonover area will be soggy for a couple of extra day. I wouldn't be shocked if they closed Dupont singletracks until Sunday or Monday. I plan on riding Sunday at Pisgah.

  138. #738
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solid Orange View Post
    Agree with this. I'd say by Sunday most everything will be good to go. Rode Avery yesterday and it was perfect except for the last part which is usually wet. Dupont has certain areas that don't drain well and some that never do (Turkey Knob--which is one of my favorites but it always has wet areas). Reasonover area will be soggy for a couple of extra day. I wouldn't be shocked if they closed Dupont singletracks until Sunday or Monday. I plan on riding Sunday at Pisgah.
    DuPont was riding great yesterday. A little wet in spots but nothing crazy. Little river is best avoided for a few days but big rock and all of lake imaging was in great shape.

  139. #739
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    Rode Mullinax>Squirrel out and back this afternoon. Trails were in good shape, a few mud spots but no big deal. Looking forward to the Swank in the morning.

  140. #740
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    Quote Originally Posted by BanjomanO View Post
    Rode Mullinax>Squirrel out and back this afternoon. Trails were in good shape, a few mud spots but no big deal. Looking forward to the Swank in the morning.
    Very cool. See you there, on a blue/silver Primer.
    Niner Jet 9 RDO, Scalpel 29, XTC 650b, 04 Stumpjumper FSR Pro, Trek Rigid SS - No suspension, no gears....no problem

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