old trails on geological survey maps- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    old trails on geological survey maps

    according to the forest service, if you can prove to them that trails used to exist, and were on the olds maps, then they don't need to go through the archeological and environmental assessment steps that are required to build a new trail, which means that if approved, then we can just corridor out these old trails.

    there are dozens of ridges throughout the ranger district, and even more in the grandfather district with trails on them. and they are all on the old maps. the loop possibilities are endless. i've ridden most of them in the ranger district, and they connect and they would require little man power.

    why we have gutter trails like long branch and bradley creek i have no idea, while all the up high fast ridges are shut down.

    i am curious as to what the mountain bike community has to say about this, it seems that our service group is busy building things that no one really cares about in heavily trafficked areas. unfortunately we have to jump through the hoops to get the forest service to notice us, which means we have to go through sorba. i was unable to attend the last meeting, but i plan on bringing this up at the next one.

    is anyone else in the bike world interested in opening up old trails to make new loops?

    is anyone else interested in proposing a designated free ride area? it seems like people are going to do what they want regardless of the rules, so something legal, fun, and sustainable is really the only option.

    its our forest, we should be able to do whatever we want within reason.

  2. #2

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    Of course everyone wants more trails And yes, maybe it could happen (not easily though). I commend you for taking some initiative by posting on the interwebs about this, now all that's needed is some walk. Your "service group" is you as part of we and we is volunteers.

    I've got the old maps. Let's plan a meeting. Who's going to lead? BTW, PAS has a lot of room for more leaders.

  3. #3
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    Hey Park, we've met before on the trail... I'm quite interested in this and have been exploring lots of old trails to see how accurate the old maps are and to see whether the old trails are even marginally navigable.

    In several specific cases I've run across old trails that are being extensively used by ATVs - and I've made the argument to the FS that it makes no sense to keep these trails closed since it only enables the current illegal uses to continue. If there was more legal access to these trails that alone would cut down on the illegal access.

    There is also a lot of "linear wildlife openings" that could be opened up to bikes without negatively impacting the wildlife. I've hiked plenty on those roads and don't ever notice that there is more wildlife on them than on other similar roads without the designation.

    As for a designated free-ride area maybe we should focus on recently logged area as these aren't useful for much else and there would be tons of useful waste (logs mostly) to make features out of. There's a whole area off of 475B that's already been logged, and there's soon to be an area out near Devil's Courthouse (2010?) as they've been doing the assessment this year.
    many gears, some pies

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by park baker

    i am curious as to what the mountain bike community has to say about this, it seems that our service group is busy building things that no one really cares about in heavily trafficked areas. unfortunately we have to jump through the hoops to get the forest service to notice us, which means we have to go through sorba.

    .
    What a load of crap. Are you serious? While you have some good points, you go for the nut shot on the single best thing to happen on the trails of WNC in the last 100 years. Is SORBA so bad? The forest service would love for you to open up new trails they can't maintain. No one cares about Greens Lick? Thats why the Greens Lick sabotage thread won't go away. No one cares about Squirel Gap or Laurel Mtn? No one cares about the entire reworking of the trail system at DSF? SORBA delivers a tremendious service to the community. And if you decide to get off your butt and champion something, SORBA will more than likely back your efforts 10 fold and give you the tools and manpower to make a difference. But then again maybe I misunderstood you.
    Should you do more trail work?

  5. #5
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    More trails are better and if pre-existence makes it easier to bypass the red tape then go for it. There's nothing wrong with not going through sorba to make it happen. It would be great to get some back woods trails official even if they don't get much traffic or much work beyond some brushing.

  6. #6
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    There is a lot of interest and much discussion already going about reworking old trails. The trick is Land Managers and relationships. We all need to meet up and work out a few ideas...run them by PAS (Van), put in some local trail days...make ourselves more known in the Brevard side of Pisgah , then go for the Gold. There is definitely possibilities yo make these trails exist, but we have to plant a few seeds first.

    Lets all who are interested get together soon in the Brevard Area and get things moving.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by park baker
    ...it seems that our service group is busy building things that no one really cares about in heavily trafficked areas. unfortunately we have to jump through the hoops to get the forest service to notice us, which means we have to go through sorba. i was unable to attend the last meeting, but i plan on bringing this up at the next one.
    Any service group has to compare its resources (time, talent, and money) with its challenges, then decide where to apply said time, talent, and money. Usually such decisions are focused on delivering the 'biggest bang for the buck'. With volunteers active at Richmond Hill, Bent Creek, the southern section of the Pisgah District, and DuPont State Forest, SORBA would appear to be addressing things that MANY riders care about. Do I personally care about Richmond Hill?? I'll probably never ride it, but I think the project will produce an important riding venue for Asheville, and I'll show up for work days whenever I can. Likewise, I don't ride Bent Creek much, but I'll try to make some work days there, too, just to support the SORBA's efforts. My recent focus has been DSF and the District, because those are the places I usually ride... How do we decide what to work on there?? Well, how about working on heavily used areas that other groups (or individuals) aren't doing enough work on? If we haven't yet hit the project YOU care about, either be patient, or jump up and initiate that project yourself--perhaps that's just what you're doing here. If so, I wish you the best in your efforts, and encourage you to pick a single project, get some group support from SORBA (even if you hate dealing with the organization), and do your project in a way that encourages the District to invite you to do another one. If you need a sawyer, call me...


    Quote Originally Posted by ridn29s
    There is also a lot of "linear wildlife openings" that could be opened up to bikes without negatively impacting the wildlife. I've hiked plenty on those roads and don't ever notice that there is more wildlife on them than on other similar roads without the designation.
    If the roads you're referring to have officially been designated as "Linear Wildlife Openings" (LWOs), there's no way (read: NWIH) they will be re-opened to bikes until another logging operation takes place on top of them. LWOs are a joint venture between the North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission (NCWRC) and the USFS. NCWRC is involved as 'the owner of the wildlife', and the USFS is involved as 'the landowner and manager'. They began with agreement to close some 30 old logging roads to all but foot traffic and seed them with wildlife cover crops was made between Pisgah District and NCWRC officials 15 Feb '95. That decision was of the 'good old boy network' variety, and the proposal was not run through the USFS' public notification process. The first closure signs were posted Sept/Oct '96, and were discovered by a Blue Ridge Bicycle Club (BRBC) member 6 Oct '96. The first signs he found were on the extension of FS225 and the series of old logging roads that once connected FS225 with FS475B via parts of Siniard Ridge Trail. The closures were quickly contested by the MTB community, and the closure was reversed because the public notification process had not been followed by the USFS...

    For a couple years the concept of LWOs remained buried in some bureaucratic file cabinet (or two), and the MTB community rode those old logging traces that made good connectors, but the concept of LWOs came up again when in Feb '98 the NCWRC again wanted to close many old logging roads as LWOs--this time a total of 42 rather than the original 30... The concept was kicked around for a while, then in May '00 the USFS issued a draft Environmental Assessment (EA) listing those 42 LWOs. Several members of the MTB community, working with BRBC and IMBA addressed each LWO's potential as a connector or a good ride in its own right. We also tried to emphasize the idea that food crops could be planted on old logging roads (which are typically 10-12 feet wide) and designate an 18" tread area for shared use--NCWRC would not even consider the concept. The MTB perspective was quickly delivered to the Pisgah District, and again the subject went underground. A couple years later (7 Jan '02) the District issued a "Decision Notice and Finding of No Significant Impact" (DN/FONSI) recommending that 34 of the 42 proposed LWOs be closed to all but foot traffic. Several of us in the MTB community filed official appeals to the DN/FONSI shortly after its release. On 11 May '02, those of us who appealed the DN/FONSI were sent (via certified mail, no less) letters (file code 1570-1) from Robert T Jacobs, Appeal Deciding Officer, Regional Forester, Hotlanta, GfockingA saying he supported the DN/FONSI. So those 34 roads have been duly declared LWOs and have been signed as closed to all but foot traffic. Some additional LWOs have been created via logging projects approved by the District (and having gone through the proper EA process) since Mr Jacob's decision. I don't know the total number of LWOs on the District now, but you can bet your arse that not a single one of them will be open for discussion or review UNTIL another logging operation is proposed on top of it...

    A couple of my favorite LWO routes of the late '90s were left open to MTB travel, so for a while I felt like we might have won something through our 5+ year battle. One is the extension of FS225, which allows the cross-country rider to connect the upper reaches of Cove Creek with the top of Daniel Ridge. That once-threatened route is still a pretty nice ride, and I try to hit it every few weeks... The second, the afore-mentioned series of logging roads north of FS225 in the Siniard Ridge area (once known to locals as "Chuck's LWO Loop") was recently logged. I rode it this afternoon, stopping frequently to puke. Once 3 miles of shaded single- track taking the rider past two beautiful waterfalls, only 0.25 miles in the middle remains as single-track--the rest is 10-12' wide gravel road that won't see shade for many years, as the timber on both sides has been stripped... I suspect the two bridges constructed in the making of the lower road segment off-set any money made on the timber sale. So did we win anything???

    This response was only intended to give some background on the process that resulted in the LWOs that now exist on the District, but the last bit is almost a rant. Forgive me--that wasn't my intent. I hope forum readers understand that the process through which those logging roads were granted LWO status was not fun for anyone involved, and neither the NCWRC nor the USFS Pisgah District will be willing to review the LWOs just because another mountain biker wants to ride them!

    Regards,
    TZ
    Last edited by TrailZen; 06-14-2009 at 06:01 PM.
    Geriatric mountain biker and trail maintainer... ...with digital braking!

  8. #8
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    What specific trails do you have in mind to be opened to bikes? I'm not very familiar with the Grandfather district but some of the off map (#780) trails in the Pisgah district that I have HIKED would be interesting to bikes, but many of them would only be novel detours to the already available, and legal, bike routes.

    Perhaps we could also work to get some of the existing mapped trails that are currently closed to bikes opened to us. Looking Glass Rock would never be suitable for bikes but Thompson Creek might. It very well could be easier to get these trails opened than those old usgs ones and would mean mtb riders would no longer have to poach them

    Bradley Creek is anything but a gutter. There is more to mountain biking than high speed ridge runs
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  9. #9
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    all of the ridges off of 215.

    the ridge that comes back down to the intersection of bradley creek and yellow gap road off of laurel mtn trail.

    ALL of the ridges on the old survey maps.

    there is a ridge that goes from my house in strauss park all the way to fish hatchery. its up high, rocky, and fast. off that ridge there are two or three trails that come off it.

    half of these trails are not illegal, they simply do not exist

    iron mtn trail off of the top of heartbreak.

    yes, bradley creek is a gutter. theres another ridge that bypasses all of bradley creek trail and stays up high all the way down to where it hits the river. i rode bradley creek once.

    i cant say i consider crossing a creek 90 times whats left after removing high speed ridge runs from the equation.

    i do consider a place like richmond hill a waste of resources. i give it a year before it is a campground for transients and a place where kids break beer bottles.

    unfortunately sam, getting everyone together is probably more of a process. where do you suggest? in brevard i have only seen todd branham, mark allmond, thad walker and myself at any trail day. in 5 years.

    i dont think i took a cheap shot at sorba. i admittedly have a bad taste in my mouth for the organization because every meeting i have been to has been a ***** fest with finger pointing and head butting. i've gotten influential riders/personalities to come to the meetings before, they wont be back. why? for the above mentioned reasons. the younger crowd simply isnt interested in anything that sorba has going on.

    if the trails dont exist then its not considered poaching. some trails i agree are inappropriate for bikes. only because hikers should be able to enjoy the tranquility of the woods without interruptions.

    i am more interested in trails built with jumps and berms. i think i speak for a lot of people.

  10. #10

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    Park,

    To get any of this that you're talking about done, in any form, is a process. You just can't wish it to be and WAZAMM it's there.

    I want to point out a couple things and ask a few questions. First, I think your whole premiss that the FS may make opening trails that aren't on current maps but are on old USGS topos easier is based on one conversation I had with a FS employee and posted about on this forum. That's the only time they've ever mentioned this idea to my knowledge. And let me tell you something, I was speaking to him as a SORBA board member and SORBA trail coordinator. I don't think people could have had the conversation and not with those results a couple years ago before Pisgah Area SORBA was up and running at full steam. I think credit is due for that.

    Second, on trail work in the national forest. The FS has a system for assigning trails to differant user groups. We can't just go out and do what we want on any trails in the national forest. A couple years ago mt bikers wheren't assigned hardly any trails. Now we have Farlow, Laurel, Squirel, and all of Bent Creek. I think credit is due for that.

    Third, I know some Brevard area guys are VERY active in trail work and otherwise with SORBA. I've never met you at a trail work day in the few years I've been doing them. Not that you're not out there, but appairently you're not at a lot. So to say those few guys are the only ones from Brevard to show up is just false.

    Fourth, you need more fortutude to get something done if you've been turned off of SORBA by your attendence at that ONE SORBA meeting you attended a year ago. I know the ONE you're talking about. And if you're "influential riders" are of the same feeling I'd tell them the same thing...sounds like an excuss to me.

    Fifth, I disagree with you about Richmond Hill, but that's okay. Like someone said, there's enough woods to go around.

    Sixth, find a landmanager who will let you build jumps and berms. Good luck. You're not the only one who would like to ride that stuff. I would too. And so do many of the young people already helping in the club who are gravity oriented. But mtbers need to build cred with the landmangers before they'll even think about going all out.

    Seventh, opening some new trails is a great idea. I've talked with the FS about it and if some people want to form a team to get on it, let's do it. You don't need to reinvent the wheel though. SORBA's talked to them about it and we (mountain bikers) have a foot in the door. Seriously though, we just need more active people, not people whining on a message board. When we meeting?

    ~Shaun

  11. #11
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    I agree that Richmond Hill is not relavent for people living in Brevard, except that we're planning on hosting a weeknight XC race series there when done, which might be of interest to some.
    It's super relavent for those of us who live in Asheville and have to drive around 40 minutes-plus to ride anywhere besides Bent Creek or Black Mountain (town) trails. Bent Creek looks like CRAP in a lot of places because of overuse- we need more options. Moreover, Richmond Hill would be a safe place to ride your bike to from town, something that is important moving forward for a less fossil fuel dependent society.

    That's why everyone of my posts have emphasized the Asheville MTB community- that's who it's relavent for. In truth, it'll also be a great place for kids, runners, school groups, birdwatchers, anybody who wants to get out into the woods. There's a lot of value in having venues like that and we've been promoting the trail system to those user groups as well. For example, we're going to host trail work days specific for kids involving several Boy Scout troops and a city version of Outward Bound. Where's the negative in something like that?

    Secondly, I personally would love to see more "youth" involvement and more involvement from the freeride/DH community with PAS. Would you like to be nominated to the PAS board so that community could be represented?

    Finally, if you just don't want to be involved with PAS at all, start your own group and establish your own relationship with the FS. I'd be happy to send you the contact info for the person who coordinates volunteer work in Pisgah district.

  12. #12
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    Park -

    I donít like the PAS bashing. I am PAS SORBA member, and have become a big advocate for what they have done and are doing.

    Some facts about me.
    ∑ I go to some of their meetings.
    ∑ I attend some of their trail workdays, mainly the ones in DSF.
    ∑ I most likely will never ride Richmond Hill unless it is for a race.
    ∑ I live in Tuxedo.
    ∑ I dont give as much time or $$$ as I can or should.
    ∑ I like riding on my time off.
    ∑ I have yet to go to a planning meeting by anyone (city, forest service, etc).

    What I have learned about PAS SORBA
    ∑ A lot of people give a lot more time than I do and appropriately their wants get more time.
    ∑ PAS / People have developed good relationships with DSF, Forest Service, City of Asheville. This gives mountain biking a good name. It is a group they can speak when they want to get the word out, or bounce ideas off.
    ∑ PAS gets things done, lots of trails rebuilds at DSF, Pisgah trail maintenance, Richmond Hill as a few examples.
    ∑ PAS will most likely back and support an endeavor I want to pursue so long as I lead it and put in the time.
    ∑ It is filled with a lot of independent thinking intelligent people.
    ∑ I am very thankful for all the time put in by others.

    PAS is not
    ∑ David George mountain biking club.
    ∑ It is not a bunch of people sitting around waiting for me to tell them what to do and what to work on.

    I feel that PAS has given a good name to mtbing in DSF (my backyard riding spot), and if mtbing was ever threatened there, PAS would be there to help. I think a name organization is help over random individuals for getting things done, especially when dealing with the govt.

  13. #13
    drunken pirate
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    Quote Originally Posted by park baker
    all of the ridges off of 215.

    the ridge that comes back down to the intersection of bradley creek and yellow gap road off of laurel mtn trail.

    ALL of the ridges on the old survey maps.

    there is a ridge that goes from my house in strauss park all the way to fish hatchery. its up high, rocky, and fast. off that ridge there are two or three trails that come off it.

    half of these trails are not illegal, they simply do not exist

    iron mtn trail off of the top of heartbreak.
    Good to hear that you don't want much. And I am beginning to think that you prefer ridge top trails (personally I enjoy riding a wide variety of trails)...

    But if you are serious about this endeavor I would encourage you to narrow down your wish list and start with one or two old trails and work to get them open. Once you are successful with those then move on to a few more.

    I don't have the usgs maps but I know there are some old trails on Lickstone Ridge and wouldn't be surprised if there is a trail that goes from Balsam Knob all the way to 276. If you get that trail open and built it could be the best run around and could get you a lot more support. That would be my suggestion of where to start (since you are dreaming big).
    Quote Originally Posted by park baker
    yes, bradley creek is a gutter. theres another ridge that bypasses all of bradley creek trail and stays up high all the way down to where it hits the river. i rode bradley creek once.

    i cant say i consider crossing a creek 90 times whats left after removing high speed ridge runs from the equation.
    I like Bradley Creek . It is absolutely gorgeous and fun to ride. I like to link it up with other trails. But like I said I enjoy a variety of trails. The variety is one of my favorite things about Pisgah. You might want to give Bradley another try, maybe on a hot August day. Or maybe you should just stick to your ridges...
    Quote Originally Posted by park baker
    unfortunately sam, getting everyone together is probably more of a process. where do you suggest? in brevard i have only seen todd branham, mark allmond, thad walker and myself at any trail day. in 5 years.
    If getting "everyone" together is a process you might be surprised to find that getting all those trails built and open is a slightly bigger process

    Good luck.
    Quote Originally Posted by park baker
    i dont think i took a cheap shot at sorba. i admittedly have a bad taste in my mouth for the organization because every meeting i have been to has been a ***** fest with finger pointing and head butting. i've gotten influential riders/personalities to come to the meetings before, they wont be back. why? for the above mentioned reasons. the younger crowd simply isnt interested in anything that sorba has going on.
    If you didn't take a cheap shot before you sure did now.
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  14. #14
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    If you are referring to the Haywood County side of Highway 215, most of the ridgelines between the Blue Ridge Parkway & Sunburst Campground are within either Middle Prong or Shining Rock Wilderness Areas which = no bike access. The ridgeline running from Richland Balsam along Lickstone to highway 276 is either USFS land(that is not within the wilderness areas) or within the Town of Waynesville's Watershed( it depends on which side of the ridge you are on), and as you approach Pigeon Gap at highway 276, private property. The one old roadbed located on the USFS lands above the Lickstone Ridge Road( the gated road that starts at Sunburst) that provided access to Lickstone Ridge is now, (along with a couple of other old road beds in that area) a Linear Wildlife Clearing and is closed to all traffic, but foot traffic.
    Last edited by wncbiker; 06-15-2009 at 05:34 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown
    Secondly, I personally would love to see more "youth" involvement and more involvement from the freeride/DH community with PAS. Would you like to be nominated to the PAS board so that community could be represented?
    Myself and 2 other "downhillers" attended the SORBA meeting last year in which (after the subject of a freeride park got mentioned), you stood up and proudly asked the group if anyone actually wanted a freeride park. The entire reason that I went to that meeting - and convinced at least one other person to go - was because of a conversation I had with Woody regarding the feasibility of a dedicated Freeride/DH park. After that (and a few other comments to be fair), it was hard to go back.

    Just my opinion - and take it for what it's worth (nothing) - but until we get past the classification/stereotyping of other riders then we'll never organize a diverse group of people to accomplish a well-rounded approach to trail management.

    Park - there is a group based out of Atlanta called SOFA (SORBA Freeride Alliance). I think there are a lot of people in this area that would love to see a nice DH/FR trail but IMO the only way to get this done is to form a SORBA chapter devoted to the discipline. That way, the 2 SORBA chapters could (hopefully) work together and each one would respect the purpose of the other.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by drkenan
    Myself and 2 other "downhillers" attended the SORBA meeting last year in which (after the subject of a freeride park got mentioned), you stood up and proudly asked the group if anyone actually wanted a freeride park. The entire reason that I went to that meeting - and convinced at least one other person to go - was because of a conversation I had with Woody regarding the feasibility of a dedicated Freeride/DH park. After that (and a few other comments to be fair), it was hard to go back.

    Just my opinion - and take it for what it's worth (nothing) - but until we get past the classification/stereotyping of other riders then we'll never organize a diverse group of people to accomplish a well-rounded approach to trail management.

    Park - there is a group based out of Atlanta called SOFA (SORBA Freeride Alliance). I think there are a lot of people in this area that would love to see a nice DH/FR trail but IMO the only way to get this done is to form a SORBA chapter devoted to the discipline. That way, the 2 SORBA chapters could (hopefully) work together and each one would respect the purpose of the other.
    These are very fair statements. I also hate the stereotypes- I was at an event last weekend that included XC, time trials, DH, dirt jumps, skinnies, trials, what have you. It was a blast.

    I'd like to point out the context of my question. The meeting was a "planning" meeting and another active member had just spoken up about needing people to lead their passions if they want stuff to happen. I was trying to ask to see who would raise their hand and lead freeride development. It's not going to be me- it's not my passion because while I'm relatively fast in a woods/trail environment I can't ride the stunts to save my life. I'm sorry if it came across some other way- wasn't my intent.

    EDIT: Note I say "not lead." I'd be happy to lend my labor to efforts led by somebody else.

    I'd prefer to see us able to work together as one group because I think two groups just encourages the divisions, but that's just me. If it's going to take two groups, sweet, let's see it happen.

    Mike
    Last edited by Mike Brown; 06-15-2009 at 07:07 PM.

  17. #17
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    I think to get anything done, all mountain bike forums must be shut off so people will step away from the computer and pick up a shovel..
    BS'ing less, riding more.

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by extrmtao
    I think to get anything done, all mountain bike forums must be shut off so people will step away from the computer and pick up a shovel..

    Beautiful!
    I unsubscribed from the Green's Lick thread a week ago so (hopefully) I could restrain myself from reading it. So far, so good.
    If the internet wasn't necessary for my work and, at this point, information dissemination, I'd cancel it in a fricking heartbeat (although my post count certainly belies that statement).

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown
    (although my post count certainly belies that statement).
    An addiction, is just that.

    Why am I still on the computer when I could be going for a night ride? Oh it rained, right.
    BS'ing less, riding more.

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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown
    The meeting was a "planning" meeting and another active member had just spoken up about needing people to lead their passions if they want stuff to happen. I was trying to ask to see who would raise their hand and lead freeride development. It's not going to be me- it's not my passion because while I'm relatively fast in a woods/trail environment I can't ride the stunts to save my life. I'm sorry if it came across some other way- wasn't my intent.

    EDIT: Note I say "not lead." I'd be happy to lend my labor to efforts led by somebody else.

    I'd prefer to see us able to work together as one group because I think two groups just encourages the divisions, but that's just me. If it's going to take two groups, sweet, let's see it happen.

    Mike
    Kenan, and others,

    As a PAS Board member I'd say I agree totally, at the same time, with Mike's assesment and with Kenan and Park's expression of the desirability of more freeride type features in the area.

    I want to stress what Mike said about needing someone to step up within PAS to lead that effort. That's really ALL it takes. And I'd also stress that these things don't happen over night unless you have a private landowner and a pile of money that wants it done. Anyone has to also understand that there is quite a bit of resistance from land owners about building trail features and upping the anty so to speak. That results in a hard row to hoe and some sceptism from people who have to deside were to put in their volunteer efforts. BUT if there are people who want to put there time there, more power to them. I'll help.

    I dont' think there is as much "division" as many think within the WNC bike community. And I'm also confident that the current PAS Board of Directors would be very supportive of any one with passion, dedication, and tact, who steps up with-in the club and leads the efforts you're talking about (heck, there are two openly stating that right here). And to be frank, if people think there aren't riders within PAS's ranks who ride the stuff you're talking about then they really don't have a clue who PAS is.

    No need to create another division. I really don't think it'll help our cause with is more more riding opportunity and preserving what we've got.

    ~Shaun

    P.S. I think you'll be seeing info about the PAS BOD nomination process coming up soon here and/or on the PAS forum. If you want to get organized, I'd hope you'll organize around that.

  21. #21
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    I fully support the idea of further organization to push for this. Maybe a DH/FR rep within SORBA would be a good start. I don't live down here full-time so I can't step up for that role, but I certainly have a lot of time and knowledge to lend when the time comes to actually construct it. There ARE people in NC building LEGAL DH trails, perhaps a little organization and professionalism between groups could be the next step to expanding them beyond private land/ski resorts. I know a lot of people don't think that these type of trails belong in the national forest, but when built correctly they can be safe, sustainable, and appropriate to their surroundings. Wouldn't legitamizing some DH spots really cut down on poaching and illegal trail building?

    What's the first step in starting a High Country chapter of SORBA or some similar group? It really seems like the Boone/Banner Elk/Wilson Creek DH scene is blowing up, and the locals should probably be ready to fight to sustain/increase access.

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    by legitimizing a few dh spots i think all we would be doing would be giving people with big bikes a place to ride the way they wanted to. i doubt we would deter any poaching as i believe most of it occurs on big rides, not shuttling.

    i agree with you andrew that they can be sustainable, safe, and of course appropriate. as a majority i think downhillers/freeriders are more willing to get there hands dirty. i am not saying that your typical trail rider wont bust his or her ass working on a trail.

    i thought i was just going to wake up one morning and have everything done, thanks for bringing me back down to earth clay.

    i dont know if a separate organization would be any better. we'll see at the next meeting. i would also like to move the meetings. i like the idea of relaxing with a beer, but the beef place isn't big enough. we need an auditorium.

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    I'd like more Davidson River opportunities to move dirt. BC and Richmond hill are a haul from Brevard. The trails down here are in pretty bad shape and I would like to see us adopt a currently-neglected trail that drops right down to 276. This would allow the rangers to see the big difference we can make. (Heck, I could single-handedly fix Sycamore Cove if it were just allowed.) The current stewards of these trails are failing us, in many cases; I just don't see any work being done.

    DH and FR seem like a whole 'nother hurdle to me. These trails need to be new, not reclaimed, and they must be single-use and one-way, with shuttle roads. I wouldn't ride my bike up a road like that. Testosterone is a crazy drug.

    I can't be involved in the politics, but am willing to do work on the ground. If something is arranged for this area, please let me know. PAS has made great progress, but we still need to be patient.

  24. #24
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    Nominate Park for BOD and the DH/FR chairman!

    I will be the first to nominate Park. He wants change, lets see what he has...

    I will not only nominate him, but pledge to support his efforts any way I can. Time, labor, donations- anything for the cause. I am absolutely serious.

    Park you want to talk the talk, time to walk the walk.

    I mean it, I will be there for you, as will a bunch of other folks. You think that SORBA doesn't have any DH support and you are mistaken. You lead it and we will help build it.

    I need some seconds to get his name on the roster. Speak up!
    Should you do more trail work?

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    With this knowledge, I can finally go buy my DH bike. I have been waiting on some real trails.

    How did we get from opening all ridgelines to DH again?
    BS'ing less, riding more.

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    I'm really enjoying this thread. Everybody is so passionate and and that's a great sign. It means that people care. Just try to remember that we are on the same side. One of the challenges I see when organizing riders is that people in this sport tend to be individualists. Individualist by nature are hard to unite. But when you do get them together and talking we quickly realize that we all want similar things. So when you read these kind of threads try to remember that at the heart of the matter we are ultimately all on the same side.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maida7
    I'm really enjoying this thread. Everybody is so passionate and and that's a great sign. It means that people care. Just try to remember that we are on the same side. One of the challenges I see when organizing riders is that people in this sport tend to be individualists. Individualist by nature are hard to unite. But when you do get them together and talking we quickly realize that we all want similar things. So when you read these kind of threads try to remember that at the heart of the matter we are ultimately all on the same side.
    MayDuh, that kind of dribble belongs here. This forum is for h8ers!!!
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  28. #28
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    wow that hippie site is very distracting. They have a whole lot going on. Who knew?

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    How receptive is the forestry service going to be to moving dirt and creating obstacles on the trail? I know it's already done in some of the backcountry areas, I've hit some fun ladder drops and such that were obviously constructed by renegades, but I just wonder if the forestry service is going authorize these contrivances.

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    In my mind, anything is posible. Check out this http://www.freedomridersthemovie.com/AboutTheFilm.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    How receptive is the forestry service going to be to moving dirt and creating obstacles on the trail? I know it's already done in some of the backcountry areas, I've hit some fun ladder drops and such that were obviously constructed by renegades, but I just wonder if the forestry service is going authorize these contrivances.
    That's a good question that I think at least a couple other people around the 'hood can answer better than I. But I'll throw my $0.02 and let me preface this by saying in the last couple years things have changed a lot with the local FS and biking.

    So with that said, a few very simple things (log rides primarily (don't go off on me because I know we're not just talking log rides here)) have been proposed to go along with a few trail make overs and maintenance plans. They've said no. But a log strategically placed to "keep people out of the mud" has been seen differantly. A ladder ride, no. An "elevated boardwalk to keep people out of a bog", maybe. I know, we're talking a differant scale, but a few years ago we weren't even invited to sling a shovel in the woods.

    Another caviet. That's just my experience with the US Forest Service. There are other land owners out there. State Forests, State Parks, Counties, Cities, Universities, private land owners, etc. It's a tough row to hoe anyway you look at it, but probably a lot less tough than it would have been a few years ago. In my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by extrmtao
    How did we get from opening all ridgelines to DH again?
    Good question. They are definitly two totally differant asks as far as I'm concerned. And I think the FS is a lot more open to us asking for the first one right now.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    How receptive is the forestry service going to be to moving dirt and creating obstacles on the trail? I know it's already done in some of the backcountry areas, I've hit some fun ladder drops and such that were obviously constructed by renegades, but I just wonder if the forestry service is going authorize these contrivances.

    The creation on an obstacle for the sake of creating an obstacle has not been endorsed yet despite repeated efforts.

    The creation of grade reversals that promote sustainability and water run-off and happen to make good jumps is a-ok.

    So far, we've been able to get away with the use of natural materials that happened to fall in a way that was ride-able, even with some modifications such as hatch-marking a tree. You can see a lot of this on Laurel Mountain, where we've tried to make for some "obstacles" off the side of the trail or build ways over downed trees instead of cutting them out. When possible, we've tried to just leave any downed trees alone so long as they're about knee height or less- otherwise known as rideable by more skilled persons and easily stepped over by other users, including hikers.

    When dealing with the FS, it's important to remember that their primary mission is the preservation of our natural resources, not recreation.

    Built-up stunts have absolutey not been endorsed by any local land manager other than the kids area at DuPont.
    We had the opportunity to build a freeride area at Alexander years ago, but that window closed. I'm not sure if it could be re-opened.
    When I sat down with the city manager regarding Richmond Hill, his only immediate, unsolicited comment was that he'd support whatever we wanted to do, so long as it wasn't a bunch of bridges, decking, and drops. For context, know that some people got busted building renegade stuff out there several years ago and that's why the city manager was hyper-alert to these issues.
    Another way of explaining what it's like dealing with land managers is that I have to submit engineer-stamped drawings and pull full-on construction/grading permits for all work at Richmond Hill.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.F.L.
    I'd like more Davidson River opportunities to move dirt. BC and Richmond hill are a haul from Brevard. The trails down here are in pretty bad shape and I would like to see us adopt a currently-neglected trail that drops right down to 276. This would allow the rangers to see the big difference we can make. (Heck, I could single-handedly fix Sycamore Cove if it were just allowed.) The current stewards of these trails are failing us, in many cases; I just don't see any work being done.

    DH and FR seem like a whole 'nother hurdle to me. These trails need to be new, not reclaimed, and they must be single-use and one-way, with shuttle roads. I wouldn't ride my bike up a road like that. Testosterone is a crazy drug.

    I can't be involved in the politics, but am willing to do work on the ground. If something is arranged for this area, please let me know. PAS has made great progress, but we still need to be patient.

    Steve- I specifically asked on several occasions if we could "have" Sycamore a few years ago. The hiking group currently assigned the trail was not willing to give it up. They built the bridges and feel responsible for them. I agree this would be worth revisiting.

    The way the process works with the district, if you have a concern about a trail, call the ranger station with specific information about your concern. A volunteer is supposed to fill out a 3 x5 card and place it on a bulletin board in the mysterious back of the building. Volunteer groups are supposed to check the board regularly and follow-up on any concerns (That they feel are address-able. We actually received a request to "take out the hills" once...).

    Just so everyone knows, the current PAS board has talked a lot over the last year or two about how we need to reach out to the Hendersonville and Brevard areas more. I truly hope this thread is part of a movement that leads to that happening.

  35. #35
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    That's cool. I have to revise my statement: I have seen work done, but it's about 1/10th of what's really needed. I'll make sure to get in and make my comments known to the rangers.

    The rules are frustrating. I could get a lot done my doing 30 minutes to a couple of hours work in there whenever I find time. Having to organize a group really works against my ability to contribute... not sure there's a solution.

  36. #36
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    Should we take better care...

    ...of what we have before we ask for more trail? I'd like to have more trail mileage on the District and at DSF, but don't we appear more than a little hypocritical when requesting (even demanding!) more trails when in the same post we gripe about the condition of current trails? Why would a land manager approve new trails when he doesn't have the paid staff or the volunteer labor to properly maintain (by our own demanding standards!) the existing trail inventory?

    Simply placing a trail on a ridge is no guarantee of proper water management, either--even well-outsloped tread can cup from the compaction of use and start to move water down-tread. Water management on District and DSF trails will become even more important if the area's weather is indeed returning to the rainfall patterns of the '70s and '80s. And it's poor water management that's caused some trail segments to act as drainage ditches...

    Quote Originally Posted by ThoughtfulPirate
    There ARE people in NC building LEGAL DH trails, perhaps a little organization and professionalism between groups could be the next step to expanding them beyond private land/ski resorts. I know a lot of people don't think that these type of trails belong in the national forest, but when built correctly they can be safe, sustainable, and appropriate to their surroundings. Wouldn't legitamizing some DH spots really cut down on poaching and illegal trail building?
    So is this jump "safe, sustainable, and appropriate" to its surroundings? Does it belong on public lands?

    http://forums.mtbr.com/attachment.ph...1&d=1245353851

    Many would say "yes"--it's well-built and is situated off-trail on an old road bed that will withstand the impacts of jumps. Because it's an optional line, users make their own safety decisions...


    http://forums.mtbr.com/attachment.ph...1&d=1245353851

    Others might point out that in the second photo the fall-line route (to the right of the old bridge abutment) being used to cross the creek to access the jump is already (after only a few weeks' use) showing major erosion through a sensitive riparian area. What will the land manager decide?

    TZ
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by TrailZen; 06-18-2009 at 01:46 PM.
    Geriatric mountain biker and trail maintainer... ...with digital braking!

  37. #37
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    "Why would a land manager approve new trails when he doesn't have the paid staff or the volunteer labor to properly maintain (by our own demanding standards!) the existing trail inventory?"

    He probably wouldn't, but to the other point...

    It's sounding like most/all of the trails have volunteer groups already assigned to them. Maybe we can diplomatically explain to the FS that some areas need additional volunteers, in the form of an additional, sponsoring group (PAS). Perhaps, for a trial period, we would be allowed to demonstrate how much additional good could be done.

    These other folks are on the right track, but they don't seem to understand the scale of the work/features that are needed to make the repair work effective and lasting.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrailZen
    ...of what we have before we ask for more trail? I'd like to have more trail mileage on the District and at DSF, but don't we appear more than a little hypocritical when requesting (even demanding!) more trails when in the same post we gripe about the condition of current trails?
    TZ
    Ohhhhhhh sure, applying common sense!! You must be new to trail building as everyone knows you lay tread first and think about the impacts after 10 - 12 years of rain and use. DUH!

    Everyone please take note, NO MORE COMMON SENSE in this thread, its not the MTBR way.

    Yes I will continue with my sarcasm as long as I shall live. I love being a contributor!!
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  39. #39
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    Excuse me for being an ignorant South Carolinian, but how has PAS done with its existing trail assignments in the ranger district and does the existing organization have the people power to take on additional trails?
    BS'ing less, riding more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by extrmtao
    does the existing organization have the people power to take on additional trails?
    It'd take the US Army to fix everything that's "wrong" with our trails, so in that light, we do what we can. But more trails? We have diggers but we need more digger leaders.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by FeloniousDunk
    It'd take the US Army to fix everything that's "wrong" with our trails, so in that light, we do what we can. But more trails? We have diggers but we need more digger leaders.
    Quote for truth!!!

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by FeloniousDunk
    We have diggers but we need more digger leaders.
    Last time I was to lead a group, they revolted and I was overthrown. Seriously. They decided that they should ignore the instructions and add some 'flair' to the rock armoring. It was undone and redone correctly, during the NEXT session.

    Let us all know what is involved in 'leading'. How many hours of paperwork? Background checks, random testing, etc.

    I think there're enough folk down here to put something together. What are the chances we can get access to some trail (already-sponsored) that's easily-accessible? I'd like to have something that we can get to quickly and work for 2-3 hours in the evening. Squirrel is an all-day event. I'd like to see maximum reward with minimal time spent traveling in/out.

    Do I need to attend the meeting for this? Sean, David, Carlos?

  43. #43
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    Steve- If we could get something like this started here, I'd be glad to spend some random evenings working on this also. It never fails every time there is a group planned workday, I'm either slammed at work or busy with prior family engagements.
    "I ride to clear my head, my head is clearer when I'm riding SS. Therefore, I choose to ride SS."~ Fullrange Drew

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.F.L.
    Last time I was to lead a group, they revolted and I was overthrown. Seriously. They decided that they should ignore the instructions and add some 'flair' to the rock armoring. It was undone and redone correctly, during the NEXT session.
    That happens sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by D.F.L.
    Let us all know what is involved in 'leading'. How many hours of paperwork? Background checks, random testing, etc.
    Leaders coordinate efforts with the club and the FS at meetings and thru emails. You may want to do some publicity for your work days so you can get some helpers to show up. The only paper work is to collect the info on who shows up for trail work and how long they work. You then turn over the completed sign in sheet to the club so we can keep track of what work was done where.

    Quote Originally Posted by D.F.L.
    I think there're enough folk down here to put something together. What are the chances we can get access to some trail (already-sponsored) that's easily-accessible? I'd like to have something that we can get to quickly and work for 2-3 hours in the evening. Squirrel is an all-day event. I'd like to see maximum reward with minimal time spent traveling in/out.

    Do I need to attend the meeting for this? Sean, David, Carlos?
    So this would be like the dirty Thursdays? Yes, I think a meeting would be best so we can get you up to speed. Would you like to join the board of directors and be the Brevard area Dirty Thursday guy? Would you like to meet with the board and talk about what that means?

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by FeloniousDunk
    That's a good question that I think at least a couple other people around the 'hood can answer better than I. But I'll throw my $0.02 and let me preface this by saying in the last couple years things have changed a lot with the local FS and biking.

    So with that said, a few very simple things (log rides primarily (don't go off on me because I know we're not just talking log rides here)) have been proposed to go along with a few trail make overs and maintenance plans. They've said no. But a log strategically placed to "keep people out of the mud" has been seen differantly. A ladder ride, no. An "elevated boardwalk to keep people out of a bog", maybe. I know, we're talking a differant scale, but a few years ago we weren't even invited to sling a shovel in the woods.

    Another caviet. That's just my experience with the US Forest Service. There are other land owners out there. State Forests, State Parks, Counties, Cities, Universities, private land owners, etc. It's a tough row to hoe anyway you look at it, but probably a lot less tough than it would have been a few years ago. In my opinion.
    The reason I ask is because I know our Florida forestry and park services are vehemently opposed to anything that is "constructed." Forget about anything where lumber is brought in, and forget about anything that could be considered a risk. Our local freeriding, and the trails I am personally involved with are actually on a state greenway, so it doesn't fall under the same forrestry umbrella. I am pretty convinced that most freeriding is going to be done in parks such as the greenways or on private land. As much as I would love to see some good freeride in PNF I just honestly don't see it happening. There will have to be a change in the mentality of the people who run the forests before this will happen. There is a reason freeriding has taken place in a renegade fashion for so many years. Not only is there a negative connotation involved with it, but there is a serious risk as well. Until we can prove that we can manage risks adequately and create sustainable, non-invasive features, our future looks pretty grim. Anyway, maybe there is a similar greenway or locality that can be used rather than PNF. I wish I could be there personally to help with these sorts of projects, but living in Florida limits my abilities. I'm just thinking that as far as freeriding goes, national forests may not be the best or easiest places. I'm not trying to sound negative here, and if anybody can get the work done it's SORBA.

  46. #46
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    August 10 is the next meeting?

    The club might not survive me being on the board. And vice-versa. Nor do I think I could devote adequate time to it.

    I'd be a lot better at organizing D.T.South. Still plenty of questions, like how would we handle the tool situation? And what do we fix? Details, details.

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    Come On Up!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by extrmtao
    Excuse me for being an ignorant South Carolinian...
    There is really NO excuse for being an ignorant South Carolinian--U-Haul rates are quite reasonable! Move on up and be an ignorant NORTH Carolinian!
    Regards,
    TZ
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  48. #48
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    Considering the link was something extrmtao recommended - I just had to look.



    Didn't read any of the posts - the numbers were funny enough:

    Random Thoughts
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    This forum is for nostalgia buffs, or those just testing their long-term memory
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    OK - back to trail topics.....
    Now you're cast of steel and cast aside. Broken dreams maybe, but you haven't died

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrailZen
    There is really NO excuse for being an ignorant South Carolinian--U-Haul rates are quite reasonable! Move on up and be an ignorant NORTH Carolinian!
    Regards,
    TZ

    MOVE UP THERE!! Where the trails are muddy and no good ridgelines are open to ride. . . No way.
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  50. #50
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    Don't Get Us Back On Track!

    Quote Originally Posted by extrmtao
    MOVE UP THERE!! Where the trails are muddy and no good ridgelines are open to ride. . . No way.
    FOUL!! Are you trying to get this thread back on track or something??? What a dirty trick!

    TZ
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    i think a trail work day in the brevard area would fit better on wed. nights. tuesday night is etowah worlds and thursday nights is the sycamore group ride. there's a few dozen people that would probably be willing to attend a wed. work day, but if it was on thursdays or tuesdays a bunch of people would be missing it. again, where would we be authorized to work?

    talk about industrious, has anyone been to the brevard dirt jumps? or the other side of town dirt jumps? these kids dig and dig and dig, all for the love of riding, and i know that if given an incentive to ride the way they want, amazing things can be done.

    if you read the forest service web site, it says that towns affected the most by our current recession are ones located near federal land. more and more, the care and use of our land is being regulated not for natural resources, but for recreation. yes, a large part of it is still resource based, but i know tons of people who forego the savings account in pursuit of the recreation that makes them happy. with 13 bike shops we can make things happen the way we want them to.
    Last edited by park baker; 06-23-2009 at 06:56 AM.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrailZen

    So is this jump "safe, sustainable, and appropriate" to its surroundings? Does it belong on public lands?



    I wouldn't consider anything with that kind of penalty for failure "safe".

    My argument was that with legitimate spots to ride big bikes, people wouldn't HAVE to sneak shovels into pisgah and build crap like that. Somebody falls in that creek and breaks their neck, before you know it the whole forest is shut down.

    In my opinion, even if one way trails get built, the forest service will demand that they be dumbed down (for good reason; liability and safety) to the point that the real DHers will just complain and continue to ride what they already do.

    This is why i've turned my attention towards private venues that could be opened to the public in the future. I could gripe on the internet all day, but then my callouses might get soft. I'd rather dig and solve the problem myself. I HAVE a legal place to ride my DH bike...pisgah is where I pedal and appreciate all the fantastic trails we already have.

  53. #53

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    There have been a lot of good points made about the issue of freeride trail building in this thread. Unfortunantly, from my percepective, the original talk about trying to open old trails has wained. But that's fine. If there isn't enough passion to talk about it, there isn't enough to get it done.

    I think it would be productive, or at least fun, to arrange a talk around sjanes's showing of "Freedom Riders" http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=530983

    Park, we're playing phone tag. I'll try again. I'm heading out of town tonight and won't be back till the 6th. May have to get back with you then.

  54. #54
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    Getting old trails opened hasn't lost interest for me at all. I've hiked and biked (always starting at a legal point) a lot of old trail in the last year or two and there is so much forest out there which is currently ABUSED by locals on motorized vehicles and occasionally used by some fool like myself who then invariably finds said users in some very remote spot

    I've got old maps, GPS routes, pictures, etc... and am willing to meet with the right FS people any time if someone can make the right introduction.

    And for me Tuesdays or Thursdays would be better for Brevard workdays.
    many gears, some pies

  55. #55
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    Are the Brevard dirt jumps "legal" or are they just another unauthorized area that simply seems to tolerate it? It seems that most of the people who are out digging and building are the personality types that like to go out and do things rather than sit around and talk about them. They are more interested in building and digging rather than asking for permission or dealing with red tape. That coupled with the inherant risk from dirt jumping and concerns from land owners. It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission

  56. #56
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    I can't get logged into the PAS site. Can't request a new password, either. Anybody?

    I can't imagine the dirt jumps are legal. If so, I'm demanding that the city get them up to (9th St/Sheep Hills) code.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.F.L.
    I can't get logged into the PAS site. Can't request a new password, either. Anybody?

    Sorry Steve, somehow your account was blocked. The site has a mind of it's own. We are working on giving it a full frontal lobotomy in the next few months.

    I've unblocked you. If you have any more problems with the PAS site just email me

  58. #58
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    Park:
    you said "i am more interested in trails built with jumps and berms. i think i speak for a lot of people."

    I disagree. I do not believe most MTB riders out there are up for a Greenslick experience. Give me 50 miles of solitude or a 50 miles of single track. Keep the berms and jumps where they belong-- in a single user application like a BMX track or a Freeride park or Pump Track. Maybe designate a few trails as "Greenslick" style but limit the jumps and berms.

  59. #59
    Its got what plants crave
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    Quote Originally Posted by djcnwriding
    Park:
    you said "i am more interested in trails built with jumps and berms. i think i speak for a lot of people."

    I disagree. I do not believe most MTB riders out there are up for a Greenslick experience. Give me 50 miles of solitude or a 50 miles of single track. Keep the berms and jumps where they belong-- in a single user application like a BMX track or a Freeride park or Pump Track. Maybe designate a few trails as "Greenslick" style but limit the jumps and berms.

    Doesn't sound like you're a freerider to me then! Don't the XC guys already have a zillion miles of trail? How about sharing some of the land for the freeriders/DHers? If most riders out there aren't in it for the "Greens Lick" experience, then why is Greens Lick the first trail on so many people's lists? Limiting the jumps and berms? Doesn't that defeat the purpose?

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    Doesn't sound like you're a freerider to me then! Don't the XC guys already have a zillion miles of trail? How about sharing some of the land for the freeriders/DHers? If most riders out there aren't in it for the "Greens Lick" experience, then why is Greens Lick the first trail on so many people's lists? Limiting the jumps and berms? Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
    I wouldn't use Greenslick as a barometer for interest in Freeride/DH trails. It's a cross-country trail with a bunch of dirt piles on it, nothing more. It's gotten a lot of hype since the name was changed, but in principle it's still the old Milk Run, Heinous, Upper Whatever-you-want that's been there for longer than most can remember. It is not, however, a Freeride/DH trail.
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  61. #61
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    i don't think most mountain bikers that like riding jumps and berms are up for a green's lick experience either. flat corner to water bar aren't the proper ingredients.

    i'm not sure if a trail with jumps and berms is feasible in the forest, the exception might be bent creek, or dupont. after several long conversations with a good friend who has more experience than anyone i know dealing with the forest service, it seems the logistics will be a nightmare, and it might not be worth it. but i am still willing to try, because i do think i speak for a lot of people.

  62. #62
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    Update?

    How is this coming?

    I'd like to rip some sweet ridges next year instead of having to still ride the same lame Pisgah gutter trails. Thanks!
    More Trails, Not Less

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  63. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood
    How is this coming?

    I'd like to rip some sweet ridges next year instead of having to still ride the same lame Pisgah gutter trails. Thanks!
    Ah, an oldy but a goody.

    Good question. I can give you the basics from the general PAS Board of Directors percpective. When this first came up we said every big effort like this one would need a dedicated person/people to take on and lead the project. To date, PAS hasn't had anyone step up and take it and run with it. Some people have time to talk about it but apparently haven't found the time to act on it in an effective way. I know it's something everyone is interested in and the PAS board of directors would love to support a good effort, but currently all the board members have other big projects they're working on and the ones who don't have something big on their PAS plate either aren't interested in leading such a big effort or haven't gotten around to running with this under the PAS banner yet.

    I think it's a very viable thing for the club to be working on if someone wants to work together with us to lay out a plan and lead it.

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  64. #64
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    dont worry clay

    hopefully you can dismount on new climbs and skid down some new downhills sooner than expected. merry christmas!

  65. #65
    drunken pirate
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    Well, it sounds like you have made real progress, Park, and for that I truly applaud you. Dealing with the FS is not easy but somehow you have managed to get something done in just six months. Can you share just what progress has been made with this and what needs to happen going forward? Thanks!
    More Trails, Not Less

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  66. #66
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    Why would anyone want to step up and do anything for the Asheville scene?

    All you get is grief.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.F.L.
    Why would anyone want to step up and do anything for the Asheville scene?

    All you get is grief.

    Interesting question that seems simple and possibly even nebulous but it made me think a bit and I want to throw in my $0.02.

    First of all "grief" is a somewhat touchy feely/emotional response to others' words and actions so here's a touchy feely reply

    Speaking as someone who has stepped up to do something (Bent Creek trails co-coordinator and general PAS stuff) I have to agree that there is some grief that comes with giving back in the local mtb community. And it actually comes from some surprising places at times. But the VAST majority of what I get back personally is very positive and I'm seeing more and more truth to the idea that the grief givers/complainers are few in number but are the loud ones you hear in public forums but the praise givers and good vib givers most often dish that out quietly and privately.

    YMMV.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by FeloniousDunk
    .... the praise givers and good vib givers most often dish that out quietly and privately.

    YMMV.
    Simple, well said and very much on target.
    SORBA-Woodstock Diggin' dirt since 1999.

  69. #69
    drunken pirate
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    I'd like to clarify that I am not trying to give anyone grief by bumping this thread. Park seemed to be motivated to work on getting the old trails that are on the usgs maps (as well as new trails built on every ridge in Pisgah) onto the 780 map and legally open to bikes. I heard that he got on the PAS board and was wondering if his change in heart about PAS was because he really wanted to work on this project. So, after six months I thought I'd check and see if any progress had been made. FeloniousDunk, whose posts always seem genuine and reliable, says that nobody has stepped up. But Park appears to be saying that he is working on it. Hmmm....

    Why would anyone want to step up and do anything for the Asheville scene?

    All you get is grief.
    With few exceptions I think the reason why people volunteer their time for causes is because they personally feel passionate about them and enjoy giving back to things that they enjoy. Sure a few people might show up for a trail work day because they feel guilty but for the most part I think they are out there because they enjoy it and get satisfaction from it. The leaders, who put in more work than most of us realize, I don't think are doing it because they want a pat on the back or need fodder for their resume. They are doing it because they want to.

    People b*tch and moan on the internet. That isn't going to change. Like FeloniousDunk says, grief is an emotional response. Emotions are hard to control so grief is bound to come when someone rips on something you worked hard to do but I hope that in the end the positive outweighs the negative.

    Like Park, I b*tch and moan plenty on the internet. I'll admit it. I'll also admit that other than paying a few nominal dollars every year to PAS/IMBA I'm a bad PAS member. I've been to one meeting and a few work days and that is it. I could give a bunch of excuses why that is but all they would be is excuses. I could also try and say all the things I do in the forest that I consider to be my way of giving back but this isn't the place for that so I won't. There is a lot I would like to do but sadly I just never seem to have the time. One of these days I'll get my first aid certification and try and do that whole mtb patrol thing. One of these days....

    PAS is getting a lot of stuff done and that is quite admirable so to everyone who is out there putting in the work and time I say sincerely want to say thanks. I don't know what I would do without trails.
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  70. #70
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    "I'll also admit that other than paying a few nominal dollars every year to PAS/IMBA I'm a bad PAS member."

    That makes you a supporting member with voting rights.

    "I could also try and say all the things I do in the forest that I consider to be my way of giving back..."

    Meh - as a SORBA member, and I'm unsure what the official rule is - but with proper contact and documentation, those "things" you do might be valid volunteer hours.

    Nice post.
    Now you're cast of steel and cast aside. Broken dreams maybe, but you haven't died

  71. #71
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    love that stream jump, chances are much better that someone could fall off on a twisty steep switchback and break their neck than trying that gap and falling into the gap. There are alot of very dangerous things on mtn bike trails that don't look dangerous, that gap is one of the things that looks more dangerous than it really is.

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