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  1. #1
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    Ladder Bridges / North Shore

    Just curious if there are any public trails with ladders or north-shore style features in or around WNC?

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    Nope, we're missing something called Cedar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ds68698
    Nope, we're missing something called Cedar.
    that does not matter at all.it just has not caught on here,if someone got out and built some ripping ns trails maybe it would.but a lack of cedar matters not...

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    treated doesn't last very long when compared to cedar is what he means ( I think)

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    Lotsa Nat'l Forest land to get caught building in/on.......czech this forum bout th rangers opinions of that 1st.....they may not agree w/you. They've been lookin for those who ride unautherized trails and building on private & FS land. Just'a heads up.
    "Why are you willing to take so much & leave others in need...just because you can?"

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    Somebody needs to build a partnership with a land manager before permanent public trails get built NS-style. The horse goes before the cart....

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    mtn biking is still a crime in the southeast. It's all about liability.

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    Best bet for future real NS-Freeride DH suff in NC is to support the efforts of the guys doing the races at Beech and Hawks Nest. That may develop into something if the owners see potential $$$. Other wise its just not legal in NC and not worth the consequences.

    If you are willing to drive a little farther, Windrock TN (Just past Knoxville) has some legal wooden features that are built to last on what I think is the BEST DH system in the South East.. They are actually built for mtn bikes.

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    If you were a ranger, would you want to deal with that stuff? I wouldn't.

    (and that comes from someone who would love to have access to north-shore style trail.)

    As mentioned, if you want it, go make it happen on private land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.F.L.
    If you were a ranger, would you want to deal with that stuff? I wouldn't.

    (and that comes from someone who would love to have access to north-shore style trail.)

    As mentioned, if you want it, go make it happen on private land.
    I think this is the wrong way to approach this. Sure, we will probably never have wooden ladders 10+ feet off the ground but there is already a precedent set out West (ie Idaho, Wyoming, Utah) for downhill specific trails with natural freeride terrain. This is on Forest Service land with the blessing and help of Forest Service personnel.

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    I'm sure there are local folks who can better explain why this is not likely to happen any time soon.

    I want a shifter kart, a Quad, and rally and road race cars, but I don't have a place to use them. Because of this, I'm not actively pursuing them. Since our available trail doesn't require/benefit a freeride/DH bike, I don't own those, either.

    It's sort of a 'When in Rome' thing.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtdrew
    I think this is the wrong way to approach this. Sure, we will probably never have wooden ladders 10+ feet off the ground but there is already a precedent set out West (ie Idaho, Wyoming, Utah) for downhill specific trails with natural freeride terrain. This is on Forest Service land with the blessing and help of Forest Service personnel.
    Also western NC is veeery conservative and no where near as progressive as the western states are. The rangers are putting up signs in areas where people are doing things that they don't appprove of and leaving their bid-ness cards nailed up to let ya know they've been there and will be watching for "unlawfull activity". I for one don't wanna get busted over someone elses shenanigans and disregard for the whole NC biking culture.
    "Why are you willing to take so much & leave others in need...just because you can?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by man w/ one hand
    Also western NC is veeery conservative and no where near as progressive as the western states are. The rangers are putting up signs in areas where people are doing things that they don't appprove of and leaving their bid-ness cards nailed up to let ya know they've been there and will be watching for "unlawfull activity". I for one don't wanna get busted over someone elses shenanigans and disregard for the whole NC biking culture.

    Agreed, but if we don't start working towards that we will never have it. From my limited experience with the FS it is best to ask for the whole loaf of bread and settle for a couple slices.

    I am in no way advocating the building of pirate trails or doing unauthorized trail work. Like you have seen that has a greater chance of sabotaging our existing relationship with the FS.

  14. #14
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    Regarding Pisgah District itself: I have as much experience as anyone who's not a paid professional when it comes to dealing with them.
    Unless there is a very upper level change in management and policy, there will be no ladder bridges/ North Shore style riding. When I say very upper level, I mean like from the regional office in Atlanta and then down from there. If an individual was interested in developing a relationship with a land manager who might allow this, you'd be much better off focusing on other groups- think county parks, university properties, or watershed lands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown
    Regarding Pisgah District itself: I have as much experience as anyone who's not a paid professional when it comes to dealing with them.
    Unless there is a very upper level change in management and policy, there will be no ladder bridges/ North Shore style riding. When I say very upper level, I mean like from the regional office in Atlanta and then down from there. If an individual was interested in developing a relationship with a land manager who might allow this, you'd be much better off focusing on other groups- think county parks, university properties, or watershed lands.

    We are awefully blessed w/what we have now. People come from all surrounding states to western NC for all types of riding. The upper levels, if you will, view the types of built up obstacles as "liabilities" not assets. Until a more "progressive mind-set" prevails and dialoge between the land managers and land users becomes established, lets all keep th big picture in mind and respect all types of trail users & be happy w/ what we got. K?
    "Why are you willing to take so much & leave others in need...just because you can?"

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    one handed hombre- you know I agree.

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    Man this thread got totally derailed. The dude didn't ask if he should poach Pisgah with a truck full of 2 x 4s. Man people are sensitive round these parts... flashbacks from Nam, have we?


    I am surprised that nowhere in NC are there any public ladder drops or freeride parks. Maybe Florida is progressive. We have everything from 1 - 20 foot ladder drops at Santos.. I'm glad to be a part of it. No renegade trail building is necessary for us.
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    Alexander Mtn bike park had a grant at one time to build freeride trails but I'm not real sure what happened with the money. Everyone has a different answer on what happened with it. Alexander is the perfect place it just takes someone to step up, and take lead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brokeONE
    Alexander Mtn bike park had a grant at one time to build freeride trails but I'm not real sure what happened with the money. Everyone has a different answer on what happened with it. Alexander is the perfect place it just takes someone to step up, and take lead.
    Hit it up! I got your back...I live about 10 min away.

    I think the problem is with the landfill. Last I heard they would just cut in a new road any ole' where and destroy whatever trails may be in the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    Man this thread got totally derailed. The dude didn't ask if he should poach Pisgah with a truck full of 2 x 4s. Man people are sensitive round these parts... flashbacks from Nam, have we? .
    Haha... Yeah by no means was I encouraging illegally building these types of features on our systems; not sure how we got there. I simply asked if anyone knew where some pre-existing ns riding was located at.

    Thanks vpc-los, Windrock does look promising.

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    Everything else aside, the Alexander grant was for only 1500 dollars. Not getting too much done with that, frankly.

  22. #22
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    The bikePASA.com guys built a "starter" freeride-lite trail on Parks and Rec land in Huntersville (north of Charlotte) only to have it not get thru final sign off because the P&R didn't want to foot for the extra liability insurance required by the lawyers. Or something like that.

    And with people like in the story below around, who can blame a wary landowner, private or public.

    http://www.courant.com/news/connecti...,6140008.story

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    Using Richmond Hill Trail as an example, it would not have happened if one person (Mike B) had not taken the bull by the horns and spearheaded the effort with the help of hundreds of volunteers. The project has been in the works now for several years (3? I'm not sure) and while it has been frustrating at times, the project did not die. Why? Mike pushed through, worked with people and worked some more.

    If someone or a group wants ladder bridges etc, its gonna take work, lots of it, and perseverance.

    I would venture to say that this is the main reason we don't have them. Sure there are lots of access and liability issues, and it might not happen where you want it too, or where it is ideal, but you never know.

    So, until someone takes action and follows through, it's not gonna happen.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjanes
    Using Richmond Hill Trail as an example, it would not have happened if one person (Mike B) had not taken the bull by the horns and spearheaded the effort with the help of hundreds of volunteers. The project has been in the works now for several years (3? I'm not sure) and while it has been frustrating at times, the project did not die. Why? Mike pushed through, worked with people and worked some more.

    If someone or a group wants ladder bridges etc, its gonna take work, lots of it, and perseverance.

    I would venture to say that this is the main reason we don't have them. Sure there are lots of access and liability issues, and it might not happen where you want it too, or where it is ideal, but you never know.

    So, until someone takes action and follows through, it's not gonna happen.
    SO TRUE! The uphill climb is even that much harder for a bike park. Liability and maintenance are much bigger considerations then with a standard multi user trail.

    City and County lands are your best opportunities. It's hard but not impossible. There are 2 huge parks in Seattle. I just saw a brand new pump track last weekend in downtown Augusta, GA. Santos has a huge facility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maida7
    SO TRUE! The uphill climb is even that much harder for a bike park. Liability and maintenance are much bigger considerations then with a standard multi user trail.

    City and County lands are your best opportunities. It's hard but not impossible. There are 2 huge parks in Seattle. I just saw a brand new pump track last weekend in downtown Augusta, GA. Santos has a huge facility.
    Hey man, SC doesn't have much, but the pump track you saw was in North Augusta, SC!

    Carry on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seenvic
    Hey man, SC doesn't have much, but the pump track you saw was in North Augusta, SC!

    Carry on.

    Yeah, and quit stealing all of SC's grant money . . . There's none left for the UpState
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  27. #27
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    I'm heading for Wilsons Creek to do a little trailwork as soon as I get the truck loaded, anybody wanna' come help?




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  28. #28
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    There is plenty of places with ladders, drops, and dirt jumps around Asheville on private land, but no one will actually post up where they are, because they are private. Just check around with local riders and shops they may give you a little info in person.

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    God I hope you are joking Enoch...

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    Haha! Wow, me too...I'm sure he is because I can't fathom how much of an idiot it would take to put stuff like that out there after all thats been said about how it's wrong, pisses off the fs, and derails our efforts and progression with legal trails.

  31. #31
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    Just saw this img on another site...I think it applies to Enoch's post.


  32. #32
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    no duh but it is hard to convey my sarcasm back.

  33. #33
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    My first and only time trip to the North Shore of Vancouver was in 1998, at the beginning of "shore" style riding. What I learned from that trip and since that trip is that people just do not realize what work goes into maintaining these type features in a public park let alone a national forest. Material breakdown, load-carrying capacity, correct and incorrect building methods can all attribute to the safety of both riders and non-riders alike.

    The elevated features in the North Shore were created as a means to overcome both erosion and terrain problems. Now they are mostly viewed as an "obstacles" to conquer. The "stunts" can be both, but safety still has to be a primary concern for all. We had many wooden features at Pee Wee's Mountain Bike Park in Lincolnton, N.C. and they operated smoothly for years...but the cost of maintaining, travel distance, and materials have forced our park to go to a more natural means of creating "problems" with natural materials (rocks, dirts, covered fallen logs, etc.) to make the jumps, gaps, tabletops, etc. more maintainable. Now all of the rotting wood from the stunts has to be removed and discarded or destroyed, and new features will take their place. It's a lot of work, and you can't just leave it in a dilapidated state or more problems will arise.

    It is easy to say you want something, and want to create something...just remember that maintaining what you build has to happen, and with adequate help it can happen. There are successful areas where the people willing to make it happen...make it happen! The problem is that once something is made, the natural tendency is to make the next one bigger, or higher, or more incredible. As others have said on this forum time-and-time again, just be very happy that we have the great riding that we do in this area!
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    I think it's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.

    As far as giving mountain bikers a bad image, the sport was founded by rebels. That image will maintain. Promise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SICK
    I think it's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.

    As far as giving mountain bikers a bad image, the sport was founded by rebels. That image will maintain. Promise.
    When you get trails closed down, or you get fined in the 10's of thousands...you can find out how that "image" will work for you. Promise
    any time spent riding a bicycle is re-cycled goodness....

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by swaneedawg

    The elevated features in the North Shore were created as a means to overcome both erosion and terrain problems. Now they are mostly viewed as an "obstacles" to conquer. The "stunts" can be both, but safety still has to be a primary concern for all. We had many wooden features at Pee Wee's Mountain Bike Park in Lincolnton, N.C. and they operated smoothly for years...

    It is easy to say you want something, and want to create something...just remember that maintaining what you build has to happen, and with adequate help it can happen. There are successful areas where the people willing to make it happen...make it happen! The problem is that once something is made, the natural tendency is to make the next one bigger, or higher, or more incredible. As others have said on this forum time-and-time again, just be very happy that we have the great riding that we do in this area!



    All well spoken. Wooden feature are cool, but they can be a pain in the butt to maintain.

    Thanks for the work you do @ Pee Wees.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad
    God I hope you are joking Enoch...

    Yes I was joking ...all104 feet of that lumber got used on a local Charlotte trail to traverse some soggy ground that gets messy in the winter.
    The Truth is out there. Here it isThe TRUTH

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SICK
    I think it's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.

    As far as giving mountain bikers a bad image, the sport was founded by rebels. That image will maintain. Promise.
    That really was the case until recently, but with all the things that the forest service is trying to do and ways that groups are working with them and other agencies to increase the legal riding opportunities at a pretty good pace it is now best for everyone to ask permission because, chances are there is a legal way for you to do the exact same thing!

  39. #39
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    All I will say is the City of Asheville has niether forgiven nor forgotten the people who were busted doing guerilla building around Richmond Hill over a decade ago. That legacy is why, until we have a new city manager, that door is permanently closed to us.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown
    All I will say is the City of Asheville has niether forgiven nor forgotten the people who were busted doing guerilla building around Richmond Hill over a decade ago. That legacy is why, until we have a new city manager, that door is permanently closed to us.
    I still think city and county land is your best bet for a legal bike park. Maybe not Asheville city. Perhaps Buncombe County or a town like Brevard that is starting to understand that bikes can be an economic contributor.

  41. #41
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    It is the same way up here in wilson's. Unfortunately for the people who actually care there has been a lot of illegal building and buzz generated online in forums about riding illegal trails etc. We have been nice about it and told people how things work up here but they just don't care. They just want to ride now and build stuff with complete disregard for the future and other people who enjoy the forest (not to mention the law lol).Just take a look at the ride monkey forums if you have some time to kill.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maida7
    I still think city and county land is your best bet for a legal bike park. Maybe not Asheville city. Perhaps Buncombe County or a town like Brevard that is starting to understand that bikes can be an economic contributor.


    Absolutely agreed. Asheville is only one governing body amongst scores of other options.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad
    They just want to ride now and build stuff with complete disregard for the future and other people who enjoy the forest (not to mention the law lol).Just take a look at the ride monkey forums if you have some time to kill.
    It's literally one guy who is posting under a fake name that's creating all the drama. Want me to dig up some of the awesome ghost-of-threads-past over here on MTBR?

  44. #44
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    No please leave them be. I am glad those threads are dead. And it is two or three guys creating the drama. But it doesn't matter to us if it is one person or one hundred. Unfortunately the action of one person can easily undermine the positive actions of many.

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    Don't think its FS holding the SE back in the freeride scene. The community just doesn't stand behind that style of riding enough yet. If enough people (especially kids) get involved and push for trails like that it'll happen. Once the scene is there maintenance isn't an issue. People will be lining up to help build and have input on the newest coolest trail. Freeride trails are much more fun to build than hikings /horse trails. Two other things need to happen first though: Bike Specific Trails and Trail Rating (bike specific not the existing multi user rating system).

    Just had to throw down my 2 cents

  46. #46
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    Jon I will mention that at least in my area, getting the freeriders together for work days is pretty tough. I try to be pretty involved with our freeride stuff at Santos (public property, mind you) and it amazes me at the ratio of people who show up to ride versus show up to maintain. Once stuff is built it seems like freeriders have very little interest in maintaining. I am not saying this as a slam, as I am a novice freerider myself, but it is definitely my experience. They are so much more difficult to rally than the XC sect. Freeriding is still solidly rooted in renegade building and riding. You want to know why? Because to do it on public land requires OODLES of paperwork and red tape. It is a sport that is inherently dangerous, and it's quicker and easier to just construct crap on the local poach spot. You don't have to worry about engineering or whether some nails are good enough to hold boards or whether screws should be used. Keep in mind that I am not advocating this sort of behavior, but as mentioned above for many it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. Perhaps not in brazen cases such as the fabled 'Nam trail, but most of them are trespassing in areas where some farmer or landlord would just tell them to scram, not federal land.
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  47. #47
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    <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/R-yWFL8vOlg&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param

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