• 09-10-2010
    brokeONE
    Kitzuma closing for trail work.
    Rode Kitzuma today and ran into people taping off trees, and stumps.They told me to let people know that the trail will be closed Mondays thru Fridays the gate will be locked. From what they said the switch backs will be banked and also said the trail will not change much other than cutting out dead wood and roots. " I don't know but we'll see"
  • 09-10-2010
    motobutane
    They'll dumb it up for sure!
  • 09-10-2010
    brokeONE
    I can tell you they definately are not bikers.
  • 09-14-2010
    bizutch
    Who cuts out roots on a trail???? Removing roots is the ghey.

    So what trail contractor got the bid?
  • 09-14-2010
    cruso414
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bizutch
    Who cuts out roots on a trail???? Removing roots is the ghey.

    biting tongue REALLY hard on this one.
  • 09-14-2010
    bizutch
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cruso414
    biting tongue REALLY hard on this one.

    not starting a pissing contest here. I realize to cut drainage and to restore the switchbacks, it is understandable. I'm simply referring to the instances where fairies who can't ride remove a set of roots simply because "they are unrideable", rather than simply move on to more pressing repairs. :thumbsup:
  • 09-15-2010
    Woodman
    "So what trail contractor got the bid?[/QUOTE]"


    Federal Biz Ops website has all the details you seek. The contractor, award amount and also the specs for the project can be found here:

    https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportun...=core&_cview=1

    Gary Greer is new to trail contracting, in fact this is likely his first first major trail contract. Gary is a retired USFS employee, in fact he was the trail manager on the Grandfather District (and the Fire Management Officer).on the Grandfather District for many years.

    Woody
  • 09-15-2010
    aappling72
    So I'm assuming this is in effect for tomorrow already 9-16? What about rattlesnake- toll road 2 heartbreak ridge? Btw. Anybody have a map of this area?
  • 09-17-2010
    Dr Thunder
    Definitely his first major trail contract
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by brokeONE
    From what they said the switch backs will be banked and also said the trail will not change much other than cutting out dead wood and roots. " "

    What he meant to say was "We'll be making it into an ADA compliant doubletrack." Seriously, all semblance of tech has been removed in the sections that have been "worked on." Virtually every rock, most roots and all drops have been taken out. He seems to have dragged the blade over literally 98% of the trail, even in spots that drained perfectly well previously. It looks like he aimed to build a small logging road, which I suppose shouldn't be surprising given that that's what the Forest Service seems to do "best."

    I'll reserve final judgment until it's officially finished, but it's extremely unpromising thus far.
  • 09-17-2010
    bizutch
    So does he need some help? I'm off work on my birthday Monday and would be a great way to work up a sweat and get away.
  • 09-19-2010
    sjanes
    can I drive my mini van on it?
  • 09-20-2010
    zod
    This is upsetting....
  • 09-20-2010
    Jim311
    I for one am tired of rocks and roots getting in the way of my mountain biking.
  • 09-20-2010
    AaronFPeet
    Unless memory fails me, Kitzuma was originally built as a hiking trail by the CCC, way back when. Many of the trails built in this era were not designed in a way that would allow it to shed water, prevent erosion or promote a healthy ecosystem. Hopefully, these folks know what they're doing and will put in some work that gets the trail into better overall shape, while maintaining all of the off camber sections and brake bumps that riders come to expect.

    Also, when was the last time SORBA got out to Kitzuma?
  • 09-20-2010
    sjanes
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AaronFPeet

    Also, when was the last time SORBA got out to Kitzuma?


    what kind of question is that? :nono:

    when is the last time you came to a SORBA meeting? :eekster:
  • 09-20-2010
    Woodman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AaronFPeet
    Unless memory fails me, Kitzuma was originally built as a hiking trail by the CCC, way back when. Many of the trails built in this era were not designed in a way that would allow it to shed water, prevent erosion or promote a healthy ecosystem. Hopefully, these folks know what they're doing and will put in some work that gets the trail into better overall shape, while maintaining all of the off camber sections and brake bumps that riders come to expect.

    Also, when was the last time SORBA got out to Kitzuma?

    It has been quite a while since I have been on Kitzuma, but from what I remember it did not look like CCC work (and it is my business as a trail professional to know these types of things).

    As far as SORBA or any other mtn bike work, the last legal (with permission from USFS) work on this trail happened long before Pisgah Area SORBA. I am remembering 9+ years ago and the project was led by Bio Wheels and fell under BRBC (Blue Ridge Bike Club). In fact, that project was were I met my Trail Dynamics biz partner Ed Sutton. BRBC had a volunteer agreement in place with the Grandfather District at the time for that trail. Unfortunately, that agreement did not get re-newed due to a lack of motivation on local riders part.

    The complacency of local riders is the norm in western NC. PAS SORBA is making a difference but they can only take care of a limited number of trails without more support and help. Kitzuma is a bit out of range for many Asheville riders prefering to head west into Bent Creek or Pisgah district as there are more options.

    It would be good to see more riders in western NC step up to the plate and get trained to become crew leaders of adopt a section of trail.

    I am in Bend OR now working with Central Oregon Trails Alliance (COTA) and they have logged 3500 hours of volunteer work year to date, and in 2009 they pumped 7+K of time onto trails here: http://cotamtb.com/worklogs/ As a result, COTA has the attention of the USFS and are moving on to bigger and better things, like designing and building 40 new miles of single track for mountain biking. COTA has applied and received a grant and bought a small trail building machine and I will training members on how to use it. In addition to normally scheduled work parties, individuals adopt sections of trail and go out and work on these trails on their schedule (after going through a training session with more experienced trail mentors).

    Woody
  • 09-21-2010
    sjanes
    [QUOTE=Woodman
    individuals adopt sections of trail and go out and work on these trails on their schedule (after going through a training session with more experienced trail mentors).

    Woody[/QUOTE]
    Great idea!
  • 09-21-2010
    AaronFPeet
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sjanes
    what kind of question is that?

    when is the last time you came to a SORBA meeting?

    The question was intended as an honest one, not intentionally rude or accusatory. I was genuinely interested in when the last time Kitzuma received attention, and Woody confirmed what I had already heard. The guys at bio wheels told me about that last project, but they assumed something had been done since.

    I have never actually been to a Sorba meeting, but I do look forward to attending some next year. Being a full time student, with a part time job and not owning a car, means I'm pretty tired at the end of the day.
  • 09-21-2010
    bizutch
    Actually the most recent sanctioned work was completed by PAS SORBA members in the past 2-3 years. I assisted Todd Branham and 3-4 others in clearing brush from much of it a few years back. Actually got "chastised for widening Kitsuma by some guessing idiot as to what I did. He thought somehow in an afternoon 4 people with loppers and a single sawyer would gut it??? Laughable.

    The most recent was some tread work that Todd took a crew up and did after maybe the second pinnacle? He posted pics of the work here on MTBR some time back. It's such a long, long trail that you couldn't even notice they did anything b/c you fly through his handiwork so quickly. But it definitely helped.
  • 09-21-2010
    bizutch
    Found what I was looking for. Tread work photos by Todd and his crew in the 3rd post here:
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...hlight=kitsuma

    My bubbly little recall of my day there:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...hlight=kitsuma
  • 09-22-2010
    Woodman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bizutch
    Actually the most recent sanctioned work was completed by PAS SORBA members in the past 2-3 years. I assisted Todd Branham and 3-4 others in clearing brush from much of it a few years back. Actually got "chastised for widening Kitsuma by some guessing idiot as to what I did. He thought somehow in an afternoon 4 people with loppers and a single sawyer would gut it??? Laughable.

    The most recent was some tread work that Todd took a crew up and did after maybe the second pinnacle? He posted pics of the work here on MTBR some time back. It's such a long, long trail that you couldn't even notice they did anything b/c you fly through his handiwork so quickly. But it definitely helped.

    Thanks for the update and correction to my post, I remember this now. Todd is pretty good about working on trails he uses in his races, and these efforts several years back reflect that.

    Woody
  • 09-22-2010
    Maida7
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bizutch
    Actually the most recent sanctioned work was completed by PAS SORBA members in the past 2-3 years. I assisted Todd Branham and 3-4 others in clearing brush from much of it a few years back. Actually got "chastised for widening Kitsuma by some guessing idiot as to what I did. He thought somehow in an afternoon 4 people with loppers and a single sawyer would gut it??? Laughable.

    The most recent was some tread work that Todd took a crew up and did after maybe the second pinnacle? He posted pics of the work here on MTBR some time back. It's such a long, long trail that you couldn't even notice they did anything b/c you fly through his handiwork so quickly. But it definitely helped.

    Technically that work was done in the name of Blue Ridge Adventures. Todd owns BRA and does trail work to pay back the USFS for use of the trails during his races. The work BRA (and various volunteers) have done on Kitsuma is repayment for the ORAMM. Last I heard BRA had adopted Kitsuma.

    Blue Ridge Adventures & Pisgah Area SORBA support each other BUT credit goes to BRA for the work that Butch is talking about on Kitsuma. It's a subtle but important distinction in the eyes of the USFS.
  • 09-22-2010
    4000psi
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Woodman
    It has been quite a while since I have been on Kitzuma, but from what I remember it did not look like CCC work (and it is my business as a trail professional to know these types of things).

    As far as SORBA or any other mtn bike work, the last legal (with permission from USFS) work on this trail happened long before Pisgah Area SORBA. I am remembering 9+ years ago and the project was led by Bio Wheels and fell under BRBC (Blue Ridge Bike Club). In fact, that project was were I met my Trail Dynamics biz partner Ed Sutton. BRBC had a volunteer agreement in place with the Grandfather District at the time for that trail. Unfortunately, that agreement did not get re-newed due to a lack of motivation on local riders part.

    The complacency of local riders is the norm in western NC. PAS SORBA is making a difference but they can only take care of a limited number of trails without more support and help. Kitzuma is a bit out of range for many Asheville riders prefering to head west into Bent Creek or Pisgah district as there are more options.

    It would be good to see more riders in western NC step up to the plate and get trained to become crew leaders of adopt a section of trail.

    I am in Bend OR now working with Central Oregon Trails Alliance (COTA) and they have logged 3500 hours of volunteer work year to date, and in 2009 they pumped 7+K of time onto trails here: http://cotamtb.com/worklogs/ As a result, COTA has the attention of the USFS and are moving on to bigger and better things, like designing and building 40 new miles of single track for mountain biking. COTA has applied and received a grant and bought a small trail building machine and I will training members on how to use it. In addition to normally scheduled work parties, individuals adopt sections of trail and go out and work on these trails on their schedule (after going through a training session with more experienced trail mentors).

    Woody


    It is terribly difficult to get volunteers to do trailwork in the Carolina's. People seem to not care and only want to go riding. I can't even begin to think of how to get them motivated. Maybe we neeed them to ban biking at Bent Creek or the Fish Hatchery to get people to wake up and give back. 7000 hrs is awesome. Does Bend have more or less population than the Greater WNC area?
  • 09-22-2010
    Woodman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 4000psi
    It is terribly difficult to get volunteers to do trailwork in the Carolina's. People seem to not care and only want to go riding. I can't even begin to think of how to get them motivated. Maybe we neeed them to ban biking at Bent Creek or the Fish Hatchery to get people to wake up and give back. 7000 hrs is awesome. Does Bend have more or less population than the Greater WNC area?

    Bend is smaller than Asheville by a margin. Bend population is between 75-80K and I think Aville is more like 100K.

    You are correct that it is overly hard to get mtn bikers motivated to do trail work in western NC. I have been a mtn bike advocate for 20+ years now so know this all too well. it is the ones who have plenty of time to complain about what is being done by others (volunteers or trail contractors) on MTBR but never can seem to find the time to get their hands dirty by volunteering to do trail work. :confused:

    While other places are motivated to raise the money to build full on bike parks, western NC is getting left in the dust.

    Woody
  • 09-22-2010
    timdvm
    Not to hijack this thread- but I'm going to. Bent Creek needs some love. With PAS on what seems to be "double secret probation", what can we do to get some work done? I have time I'd love to give, but don't know where to start.
    Tim
  • 09-22-2010
    bizutch
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Maida7
    Technically that work was done in the name of Blue Ridge Adventures. Todd owns BRA and does trail work to pay back the USFS for use of the trails during his races. The work BRA (and various volunteers) have done on Kitsuma is repayment for the ORAMM. Last I heard BRA had adopted Kitsuma.

    Blue Ridge Adventures & Pisgah Area SORBA support each other BUT credit goes to BRA for the work that Butch is talking about on Kitsuma. It's a subtle but important distinction in the eyes of the USFS.


    The day I was there I am pretty sure every volunteer was also a PAS member as well. Two for one.:thumbsup:
  • 09-23-2010
    4000psi
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Woodman
    Bend is smaller than Asheville by a margin. Bend population is between 75-80K and I think Aville is more like 100K.

    You are correct that it is overly hard to get mtn bikers motivated to do trail work in western NC. I have been a mtn bike advocate for 20+ years now so know this all too well. it is the ones who have plenty of time to complain about what is being done by others (volunteers or trail contractors) on MTBR but never can seem to find the time to get their hands dirty by volunteering to do trail work. :confused:

    While other places are motivated to raise the money to build full on bike parks, western NC is getting left in the dust.

    Woody


    Could you imagine 40+ miles of new, flowy, sustainable trail network in Pisgah?? At this rate we will never know.
  • 09-23-2010
    D.F.L.
    Local governments, depending on tourism dollars, are going to have to pay for Nat. Forest trail improvements if any real improvement is going to happen.

    Volunteerism isn't going to get it done. All our fall-line trails are in terrible disrepair. Upper Black Mountain is an embarrassment. I don't know why there's so little enthusiasm among others, but I know that when I moved down here, I went from weekly trail work to almost nothing. Must be the vortex :(
  • 09-23-2010
    AlloyNipples
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by D.F.L.
    Local governments, depending on tourism dollars, are going to have to pay for Nat. Forest trail improvements if any real improvement is going to happen.

    This is the truth. Even though these are on Army Corp land, a good example is the Allegrippis Trails at Raystown Lake, funded by tourism, local govt, grants, etc; a well-organized, collabrotive effort. They "get it". http://www.allegrippistrails.com/ While these are not the Pisgah type trails that everyone thinks they love, it's what can happen when everyone works together.

    Until the us vs. them misnomer is shaken, I think Pisgah will continue to suffer.
  • 09-27-2010
    bizutch
    Where's all this suffering I hear about? I refer to it as technical and fun.

    Oh, and planning an A.M. ride later this week. How do I find out if Kitsuma is opened back up?
  • 09-27-2010
    Woodman
    "Oh, and planning an A.M. ride later this week. How do I find out if Kitsuma is opened back up?"

    Seem like calling the GF District Rangers office would be a good start.........
  • 09-27-2010
    stevehollx
    It was still closed on Saturday if that helps much. Talked to some hikers and they said the trail was destroyed, and that it was all loose soil and sand everywhere.
  • 09-27-2010
    "CHIEF"
    I will confirm that Kitsuma's lot was locked on Saturday.

    So is anyone down with removing some of the rocks on Old Toll Road? -Ha! Seriously though, it closes in four days. Be mindful.

    Blue Ridge Adventures also "sponsors" Heartbreak and trail work usually takes place to my knowledge at least once a year.
  • 09-29-2010
    bizutch
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by stevehollx
    It was still closed on Saturday if that helps much. Talked to some hikers and they said the trail was destroyed, and that it was all loose soil and sand everywhere.

    so did you ride it?;)
  • 09-30-2010
    stevehollx
    No, we chased bears up rattlesnake and down HB instead.
  • 10-06-2010
    crossboy
    Anyone have an update on Kitsuma? I've got a visitor in town hoping to ride if it's open. Thanks.
  • 10-06-2010
    Yerma
    kitzuma update
    I got a call from a buddy who rode Kitzuma yesterday. (There was no sign at the bottom indicating it was closed.) His report is grim. The trail is officially still closed. The work appears primarily done by a blade and he described it as a 4 foot wide swath with water bars every 20 feet. The workers are out of South Carolina and were upset that he was on the trail. He in turn was shocked at what they had done to it. Sigh.
  • 10-06-2010
    tallpaul
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by D.F.L.
    ...I don't know why there's so little enthusiasm among others, but I know that when I moved down here, I went from weekly trail work to almost nothing. Must be the vortex :(


    I agree, I used to live in central MI and the trails were nothing special, but they were very well cared for. In general the biking community there was a lot closer knit than what I've seen here. Very unfortunate considering what wonderful trails we have.
  • 10-06-2010
    timdvm
    Gate at the top was locked this afternoon.

    Yerma- How far up did your buddy get?
  • 10-07-2010
    bizutch
    If only Woody's crew could have gotten this gem, I can only imagine the amazing things that could happen.
  • 10-07-2010
    Snototter
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bizutch
    If only Woody's crew could have gotten this gem, I can only imagine the amazing things that could happen.

    +1 on that. :thumbsup:
  • 10-09-2010
    clarkbar
    Rode it yesterday, no indication that the trail was closed. The contractor pretty much destroyed the trail. Call it improvement if you so desire, but the damage I witnessed yesterday would have taken decades to achieve with regular (even heavy) mountain bike use. You could ride a 4-wheeler from top-to-bottom now.

    Based on Woody's intel on the contractor, seems like this is another win for the good 'ol boy network. Let's hope this doesn't continue.

    Anyone know how/where we can submit formal complaints to the USFS?
  • 10-09-2010
    Yerma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by timdvm
    Gate at the top was locked this afternoon.

    Yerma- How far up did your buddy get?

    They did the entire loop. Up old 70 and back down to the picnic area. They talked to the head "trail" builder and told them that 2' deep water bars was overkill. The response was- "It will slow you down". Ugh.
  • 10-09-2010
    bizutch
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by clarkbar
    Rode it yesterday, no indication that the trail was closed. The contractor pretty much destroyed the trail. Call it improvement if you so desire, but the damage I witnessed yesterday would have taken decades to achieve with regular (even heavy) mountain bike use. You could ride a 4-wheeler from top-to-bottom now.

    Based on Woody's intel on the contractor, seems like this is another win for the good 'ol boy network. Let's hope this doesn't continue.

    Anyone know how/where we can submit formal complaints to the USFS?

    Went to the arboretum today with the family for the first time in years. Wow...what a boatload of wasted money just to show off tiny trees. Trees that aren't even a native "hobby"?? Was thinking of Kitsuma the whole time thinking of how horrible the rest of the world will look paved.
  • 10-09-2010
    epicrides
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Maida7
    Technically that work was done in the name of Blue Ridge Adventures. Todd owns BRA and does trail work to pay back the USFS for use of the trails during his races. The work BRA (and various volunteers) have done on Kitsuma is repayment for the ORAMM. Last I heard BRA had adopted Kitsuma.

    Blue Ridge Adventures & Pisgah Area SORBA support each other BUT credit goes to BRA for the work that Butch is talking about on Kitsuma. It's a subtle but important distinction in the eyes of the USFS.


    Technically, that work was done in the name of SORBA. Check your records Maida. Blue Ridge Adventures makes no "payment" of work to the USFS. This is an important distinction in the eyes of the USFS. We simply feel like we should give back due to the number of folks we bring on to the trails. We have adopted Heartbreak Ridge, not Kitsuma. Although at the Grandfather Volunteer meeting today, talk of adopting Kitsuma came up. The Grandfather district is dying for someone to adopt and maintain this trail!

    Rode Kitsuma today on our way home. I have to agree, it is a completely different trail now.
  • 10-09-2010
    brokeONE
    I'm going to try to ride it tomorrow. I'll post some pics if I do. This is a sad thing to happen to one of the best mtn biking trails in WNC. Maybe the trail fairies will gradually fix the trail back.
  • 10-10-2010
    D.F.L.
    It's too bad we didn't step up to do the work before the FS decided to take action. It'll be too bad, again, when we've failed to preserve Black Mtn, Laurel, Pilot, Pilot cove, Slate rock, Buckwheat, Avery, Bennet, Farlow, Big Creek, Trace, North Slope, etc, etc.

    The only solution I can think of is to have far more leaders who are 'certified' (perhaps with cooperation from the PTBA) to assemble smaller, more flexible crews. These folks would be pre-approved to cut grade reversals and nicks and to re-establish the bench within the existing corridor. Nothing else, ever. They could go out, in groups as small as 2, and sneak in 1-3 hours whenever they have it. Eliminate as much of the hassle as possible, and participation should increase.

    The mountain bike community has the opportunity to establish itself as the stewards of the trails. We know the latest methods and have the most able-bodied participants. If we want to win over the FS, all we have to do is start showing up and make a difference. It's sort of ours to take...
  • 10-10-2010
    tallpaul
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by D.F.L.
    ...all we have to do is start showing up and make a difference. It's sort of ours to take...

    I'm in. I may even be able to round up another volunteer, he's only 3 yrs old, but big for his age.

    How does one become "certified"?
  • 10-11-2010
    timdvm
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by D.F.L.

    The only solution I can think of is to have far more leaders who are 'certified' (perhaps with cooperation from the PTBA) to assemble smaller, more flexible crews. These folks would be pre-approved to cut grade reversals and nicks and to re-establish the bench within the existing corridor. Nothing else, ever. They could go out, in groups as small as 2, and sneak in 1-3 hours whenever they have it. Eliminate as much of the hassle as possible, and participation should increase.

    The mountain bike community has the opportunity to establish itself as the stewards of the trails. We know the latest methods and have the most able-bodied participants. If we want to win over the FS, all we have to do is start showing up and make a difference. It's sort of ours to take...

    This is what I want to know about too. I have time and motivation. I need the tools- knowledge and physical tools- to make it happen. I plan on attending my first PAS meeting tonight- hopefully to gain some insight.

    Tim
  • 10-12-2010
    bizutch
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by motobutane
    They'll dumb it up for sure!

    quoted for hinsight being 20/20.;)
  • 10-12-2010
    ec13823
    It is all Gone!
    Kitzuma was one of my favorites (always top 5) that would keep you in check while providing a cyclic single track experience with no intersecting trail interruptions. I rode it this evening and cannot really place all my thoughts into this post but will describe a few. What an irreverent, disgusting, deliberate destruction of a trail I have ever laid eyes on. The trail worker machined every inch of the trail wether or not it needed attention. Trees were cut down that were not in the way! An example of this (and there are many) is where trees were cut just to lay in the way of the right-hand roller-coasters at the bottom. The poor slouch could have pulled some brush into the trail (if he really needed to block the right hand options) but instead cut down trees to have them fall in the way :madmax: WTF!

    Then we have the 2 million water berms.... is this meant to rock me to sleep! They are nearly every 8 feet and cover areas that did not have drainage issues! Survey says? We did not conduct one!
    Not to mention cutting roots out and then covering it with dirt. Good for the trees eh! Oh, and smashing all the rock formations.. are we trying to erode the applications even faster?

    Now you say, who is this guy who comments on trail work and did not participate in this flippin mess?. Oh, just a taxpayer hopefully like you. Tell us where to show-up and we will!
    So before yo get all up in my grill....
    This guy was paid for his work.... so it is really ok to comment
    :nono:
  • 10-13-2010
    zod
    Grab a hand full of brake over every waterbar, open them up and we'll have old Kitsuma after a few huge downpours. The fact that they installed so many waterbars to begin with shows they know little about modern trail building techniques. They're a (very) temporary fix, don't last long, and require ongoing attention. What a bunch of fuktard highwaymen.
  • 10-14-2010
    bizutch
    Is flogging legal?