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    Electric bikes at Bent Creek

    I was out riding a gravel loop at bent creek Friday afternoon, and I came up on a group of e-bikers on the gravel roads. They were all older folks on Trek bikes. They were not being destructive or causing damage, but I looked back at the trailheads on my way out to see if there was any signage that specifically restricts the use of e-bikes out there, and I did not see any. It was my understanding that they are not allowed in the national forests. Also, I was curious if a lbs is renting these bikes. Seemed strange 5-6 folks all had the same Trek. Could be tourist...itís that time of year in Asheville.


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    Oh great. Here they come. Not allowed. Thank the gods.

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    I've repeatedly seen a couple on the forest roads in Dupont. Once they were left unattended near lake Julia. I had a strong urge to see if they were amphibious.

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    The trails have signs prohibiting e-bikes at Bent Creek. Not sure about the forest roads. I asked a ranger at DuPont after seeing an e-bike, and he said there were currently no specific rules against e-bikes at DuPont.

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    The general rule concerning motorized vehicles, e-bikes included, on USFS managed lands is that they are not allowed on gated roads. So, anywhere that you can go with your car, you can ride your e-bike.

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    It's really disturbing to see all the animosity directed at ebikes in the Asheville/Brevard area. If you guys sustain an injury or are lucky enough to make it into old age, there will be a time when an ebike might allow you to continue to ride in the woods, rather than being forced into a sedentary lifestyle.
    A class one ebike (pedal assist) will not move unless you are pedaling or coasting downhill. They do not make noise or emit exhaust, but yet folks want to lump them in with OHV's and cars. It's absurd.

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    Electric bikes at Bent Creek

    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    A class one ebike (pedal assist) will not move unless you are pedaling or coasting downhill. They do not make noise or emit exhaust, but yet folks want to lump them in with OHV's and cars. It's absurd.
    Most people are not against a low wattage pedal assist, but many are running higher power with throttle for which you donít need to pedal at all. By your logic, a Tesla should be allowed too since thereís no noise and exhaust.

    PS when I ride my bike, I make noises and exhaust, so maybe itís time to ban riders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkman999 View Post
    Most people are not against a low wattage pedal assist, but many are running higher power with throttle for which you donít need to pedal at all. By your logic, a Tesla should be allowed too since thereís no noise and exhaust.

    PS when I ride my bike, I make noises and exhaust, so maybe itís time to ban riders
    Ha. Touche. I wish you were right, but I find that most people are unwilling to make the distinction between a class one pedal-assist, or anything with a throttle. Or perhaps,it's just that the most self-righteous segment of the MTB community is the most vocal ? A poll in progress on MTBR has 88% of respondents against even class one ebikes, but I wonder how many of those same folks ride trails in wet conditions with no second thoughts?
    IMBA actually softened their stance on class one pedal assist in November and recognize that they are different classification from an OHV. BTW, just to be clear, I am not in favor of ebikes with throttles on singletrack.

  9. #9
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    Is there NO EBIKE signs at Pisgah and DuPont?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Is there NO EBIKE signs at Pisgah and DuPont?
    Pisgah (federal)-yes
    Last edited by 1-track-mind; 05-09-2018 at 11:41 AM.

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    There ARE no e-bikes signs throughout Pisgah. They're less common in Bent Creek, but all same manager, all same policy. The signs are REALLY obvious out at Tsali (same policy).

    Dupont has different management, different policies. Haven't seen signs either way out there. The comment above about no specific policy makes sense.

    Frankly, the pro-ebike crowd fails to see the major implications about their use. They throw out the age/injury argument every time. It's tired and is bunk. Frankly, if I become so limited that I cannot ride a regular pedal-only bike in the woods, I'd be a damn fool to take an e-bike out there. The battery/motor system adds significant weight to an ebike and if you have a problem in the woods that forces you off (either with yourself or the bike) that boat anchor becomes liability because you are ALSO talking about a less capable body. There's also the question about bad behavior from people with overpowered kits and modded ebikes resulting in lots of reports from other trail users to the land manager (and not distinguishing between powered bikes or human-powered). Seems to me that the pro Class 1 ebike crowd should be busting ass to distinguish themselves from THAT crowd, too, but I'm not seeing it.

    Now, I don't have an issue with them on frontcountry trails like Bent Creek in theory (especially the gravel). But I also don't have a problem with land managers who decide to prohibit them. I get it. How is a land manager going to tell on the spot (and even at a distance) the difference between a bone stock Class 1 ebike and a souped up ebay special kit, or even more difficult, a bike purchased as a Class 1 ebike and modified so it puts out more power with a throttle? Or between a Class 1 and Class 2? I can't blame land managers for not wanting to screw with that. It would probably require them to drag testing equipment out with them.

    Ebikes are different from pedal-only bikes and I have no issue with land managers treating them as such.

    I DO have a problem with shops actually recommending trails to ride that are NOT permitted. Last time I rode Tsali last year, there was a father/daughter pair who wanted to ride (the silver-haired father was on a regular bike, but his 20-something daughter was on an ebike) and they were confused when they got to the trailhead because of the profusion of signs prohibiting ebikes. They asked me for clarification, because some shop told them that Tsali was good for ebikes. I'm not going to call up the land manager and report every ebike I see on the trails. However if I am talking with a ranger/manager sometime later, I may mention it as a general issue (hey, you know that people on ebikes are riding out here, right?). Only time I'll file a specific report is if there's bad behavior involved, but that applies to any trail user.

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    I have no problem with class1 pedelecs anywhere. But, thatís not my call unless they are on my private land, which I allow. If everyone followed the rules, it could be cool, but there is always that person.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    It's really disturbing to see all the animosity directed at ebikes in the Asheville/Brevard area. If you guys sustain an injury or are lucky enough to make it into old age, there will be a time when an ebike might allow you to continue to ride in the woods, rather than being forced into a sedentary lifestyle.
    A class one ebike (pedal assist) will not move unless you are pedaling or coasting downhill. They do not make noise or emit exhaust, but yet folks want to lump them in with OHV's and cars. It's absurd.
    Itís not just here. As far as I can tell, itís pretty much everywhere. Actual bikers have worked pretty hard for a seat at the table, and becoming a legitimate user group. Motorized vehicles threaten this access on every level.


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    Conflicts and poor behavior are the results of the Pisgah District being the most heavily used forest in the east. To point the finger at ebikes as being the root of the problem without any facts to back it up, is just making them the new scapegoat, instead of blaming folks from Atlanta and Charlotte.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    Conflicts and poor behavior are the results of the Pisgah District being the most heavily used forest in the east. To point the finger at ebikes as being the root of the problem without any facts to back it up, is just making them the new scapegoat, instead of blaming folks from Atlanta and Charlotte.
    Damn, you read a lot into what I said. Youíre not the root of all the problems, just the really large, looming one. Electric motor bikes are illegal in pisgah. What else is to be discussed. Being a dick should also be illegal. Sadly, it is not.


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    Dont B Hatin'

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    Conflicts and poor behavior are the results of the Pisgah District being the most heavily used forest in the east. To point the finger at ebikes as being the root of the problem without any facts to back it up, is just making them the new scapegoat, instead of blaming folks from Atlanta and Charlotte.
    And if you could explain to me, how adding electric motor cycles to mix is going to help the situation, that would be great. Thanks.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
    Dont B Hatin'

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    Lol. All of them?


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    Class 1 pedelecs and electric motorcycles like Ktm has are slightly different to say the least. I agree they shouldnít be allowed everywhere, but certainly some trails should be acceptable. No?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Class 1 pedelecs and electric motorcycles like Ktm has are slightly different to say the least. I agree they shouldnít be allowed everywhere, but certainly some trails should be acceptable. No?
    Semantics. Trails? No. Roads? Sure. Iím of the zero tolerance notion concerning trails.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Class 1 pedelecs and electric motorcycles like Ktm has are slightly different to say the least. I agree they shouldnít be allowed everywhere, but certainly some trails should be acceptable. No?
    How do you propose underfunded and understaffed agencies police which electric motorized vehicles to allow?

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    I would think a ban on motorized vehicles (as many trail and bike path's signage indicates) would be enough to stop them. How do e-bikes get around being classified as non-motorized vehicles? Why should any park that bans motorized vehicles need to waste the time and money developing new rules/signs banning e-bikes?

    Being devil's advocate, I suppose they could be lumped in with electric wheelchairs.

    You want to see a nightmare, look at the e-scooter situation in San Francisco.

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    Instead of trying to vilify e-mtb's, wouldn't it be more constructive to address the real issues that result in loss of trail ;
    1) conflicts with other trail users
    1A) erosion/stream sedimentation

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    Instead of trying to vilify e-mtb's, wouldn't it be more constructive to address the real issues that result in loss of trail ;
    1) conflicts with other trail users
    1A) erosion/stream sedimentation

    1-track- how does a vehicle which allows users to go faster with less effort/thought not contribute to those very same issues?

    Really asking, not just trying to be argumentative or a smart A$$

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    1-track- how does a vehicle which allows users to go faster with less effort/thought not contribute to those very same issues?

    Really asking, not just trying to be argumentative or a smart A$$
    Good question Mike, but think about all the innovations to mountain bikes over the years and tell me that all the advantages (faster-less effort) of a new carbon FS mountain bike vs the original mtbs is not greater than the advantage of a class one ebike vs the same new carbon bike.
    I bought my first mountain bike in 1984, a Panasonic and I can tell you that it more closely resembles a hybrid than a mountain bike by today's standards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    Good question Mike, but think about all the innovations to mountain bikes over the years and tell me that all the advantages (faster-less effort) of a new carbon FS mountain bike vs the original mtbs is not greater than the advantage of a class one ebike vs the same new carbon bike.


    I bet it's not even close, depends on fitness levels but electric bike owners have routinely reported nearly double average speeds compared to their bicycle, some of them more. The same rider on a modern carbon bike would probably only be a few percent faster than they would on an old tech rigid bike.
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    I bet you are probably speculating...if you want an actual comparison, I average 7.4 mph on my emtb vs around 6 mph on my Turner Sultan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    I bet you are probably speculating...

    Of course, but so were you. Bet my speculation is closer to the truth
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    Instead of trying to vilify e-mtb's, wouldn't it be more constructive to address the real issues that result in loss of trail ;
    1) conflicts with other trail users
    1A) erosion/stream sedimentation
    So, Iíll ask you again: how is adding electric motor cycles into the mix going to help matters? A new user group, with a motor, going faster and farther than bicycles. Itís literally an access nightmare. Leave the motors on the roads.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    So, Iíll ask you again: how is adding electric motor cycles into the mix going to help matters? A new user group, with a motor, going faster and farther than bicycles. Itís literally an access nightmare. Leave the motors on the roads.


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    Sorry pal, I know nothing about electric motor cycles, so i can't answer that question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    Sorry pal, I know nothing about electric motor cycles, so i can't answer that question.
    So what are we talking about here? Do the vehicles youíre advocating have electric motors, or not? Itís a simple matter of semantics. Right, buddy?


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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    So what are we talking about here? Do the vehicles youíre advocating have electric motors, or not? Itís a simple matter of semantics. Right, buddy?


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    I'm talking about a class one pedal-assist ebike which are considered bicycles in 10 states. I can't have a reasonable discussion with you about it because your mind is made up and you have zero tolerance. It's not what you ride, it's how and when you ride it that creates access problems. Too fast/too wet is no bueno.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    I bet you are probably speculating...if you want an actual comparison, I average 7.4 mph on my emtb vs around 6 mph on my Turner Sultan.
    If I go uphill at 10mph at 320w, and add 250w (with a 15lb heavier bike) Iím going to go uphill at 16-17mph.

    Given that I spend the majority of my time climbing, thatís a huge change.




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    After testing out a e-bike my self a couple of years ago in Charlotte I have several concerns about them and in my opinion do not belong on trails that are having issues being maintained or impose rider conflict. My explanation below with some other observations I have seen.
    1. E-bikes will cause more erosion to trails when climbing by the additional power being put down, unless the trails are 100% maintained should we accept the extra erosion on trails that desperately need maintenance.
    2. Also when climbing an e-bike will be going much faster uphill than would be expected. When someone descending is expecting that person to be going slower they may not stop in time. While the downhill rider by all means should have given the right away there are times of blind corners etc that the e-bike even as pedal assist will be going to fast to stop in time dowhill or uphill. Expectation will be different.
    3. In my observation at the demo day in Charlotte I observed many of the e-bike testers not being able to control there bikes crashing on the uphill and downhills. In single track it takes quite a bit of skill to control an e-bike with the extra power being given. While I am sure it can be learned most e-bike riders are going to be the ones that don't have the technical skills to match the bikes power.
    4. Are their easier trails a e-bike could ride on? Yes, but should a e-bike be on a multi directional easy green trail where other beginner level riders are also learning how to ride a mountain bike? Will A beginner e-bike rider be able to control their bike and not run my child over or anyone else that is learning how to ride? So far my impression is no from what I have seen at the Charlote Demo day.

    In my opinion the only way I could see a e-bike acceptable is by having trails 100% maintained and the trail was directional or had 100% perfect site lines at good distance.
    Beginners or those unsure of their trail skills should not be on single track.
    As for gravel roads, I feel a pedal assist bike would be fine as none of these conditions apply. However if the Land manager does not approve it then we must respect the rules to not damage our trail access. Work from within the system if you want restrictions changed.
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    I'm talking about a class one pedal-assist ebike which are considered bicycles in 10 states. I can't have a reasonable discussion with you about it because your mind is made up and you have zero tolerance. It's not what you ride, it's how and when you ride it that creates access problems. Too fast/too wet is no bueno.
    You canít have a reasonable discussion because you canít admit to the obvious, that your chosen vehicle has a motor. Proponents always try to skirt the issue and just ignore that basic fact. I think itís your responsibility to get opponents to see your side. Dishonesty wonít work. And so far, you sound like all the other proponents, and your not doing a very good job of convincing anyone. What is your goal? What is it that you want to happen?


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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    I'm talking about a class one pedal-assist ebike which are considered bicycles in 10 states. I can't have a reasonable discussion with you about it because your mind is made up and you have zero tolerance. It's not what you ride, it's how and when you ride it that creates access problems. Too fast/too wet is no bueno.
    Pedal assist or not, the bike has a motor. How simply does this have to be explained to you?

    State definitions are really not applicable on trails. Different issues and definitions apply. Those state definitions define how those vehicles get regulated on open roads.

    Alternatives:
    ---Define even pedal assist ebikes as motorcycles. Requires a registration through the DMV and a plate to use on pavement. They don't fit that definition, really.

    ---Create a new definition category for these. I have seen some of this occurring (very limited basis) and it seems to really only be happening when states have legislators that actually understand the issues and the mechanical differences between ebikes and other two-wheeled transportation. Ebikes really are new territory due to technology and they really belong in their own regulatory/management category. But this option requires knowledge and work to apply well. So most will avoid it for awhile.

    So now we reach the point where even pedal assist ebikes get lumped with bicycles for street use. Because it's easy, and they're closer in behavior to actual bicycles than they are to my father's Harley. But there are notable differences, and the major one being the presence of a MOTOR that adds power to the rider's own output. It's worth noting that in NONE of the states that define an ebike as a bicycle, are land managers (even public land managers) required to use that same definition and management on TRAILS. Trails are different, and each land manager is mostly free to develop their own management plans regarding trails. Closed/gated roads are considered similarly. I know plenty of places where the majority of gated gravel roads on public land are not even open to regular bicycles.

    The land managers on the ground see the differences firsthand. A lot of them see the implications and difficulties of even allowing limited ebike use. Legislating something that makes sense intellectually is oftentimes MUCH easier than implementing that on the ground. And I have a very strong feeling that this is why ebike access is so vastly different from regular mountain bike access. This is why ebike advocates need to work on THEIR OWN LEVEL to close that gap. Don't expect 100% human powered mountain bikers to advocate on their behalf. Don't expect riders of 100% human powered mountain bikes to advocate everything exactly the way you like it, either. Because you won't like the outcome there, either. That's like asking thoroughbred horse racers to advocate for backcountry horse trails. They're different types of horse riders who use different facilities. They ride different horses.

    An ebike is different from a regular bicycle. The motor is the major difference, but we're also seeing differences cropping up in other components built specifically for ebikes. Suspension, drivetrains, etc. They're distancing themselves from regular mtb's even further, so the argument that they're basically the same holds less weight the more ebike specific components pop up on the market.

    Ebikers are going to have to do their own advocacy work. Talk to land managers and set yourselves up as good examples. Work within the system to get access to trails and land run by different managers. Show up to management plan meetings. Submit comments during public comment periods. Show land managers success stories at other properties and they'll be more likely to carve a place for you in their management plans. Don't delude yourselves into thinking you're the same as 100% human powered bicycles, because you're not. The motor makes all the difference, even if it's only pedal assist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logover View Post
    However if the Land manager does not approve it then we must respect the rules to not damage our trail access. Work from within the system if you want restrictions changed.
    I agree. That's good advice. I am not condoning breaking the rules. I'm just asking folks to have more of an open mind moving forward. I don't think it does the mtb community any good to throw one small,but growing segment under the bus, when we could be expanding our level of support.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    I don't think it does the mtb community any good to throw one small,but growing segment under the bus, when we could be expanding our level of support.
    Haha... Like folks that ride eBikes are all wealthy philanthropes ready to throw all their time and money at MTB access issues. Folks that ride regular bikes dont even do that so why would Ebikes riders be any different?

    I think there are only two good arguments for eBike access and that is when land managers are cool with it and for folks with clinically diagnosed disabilities that cannot physically pedal a regular bike. Give those folks a motor. Everyone else should pedal like the rest of us... and lose 15 pounds, eat more veggies, and get more sleep, and drink more water.

    Doing that alone is like adding a motor to your bike...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjopickin View Post
    Haha... Like folks that ride eBikes are all wealthy philanthropes ready to throw all their time and money at MTB access issues. Folks that ride regular bikes dont even do that so why would Ebikes riders be any different?
    Ha. Well let me rephrase that then; asking an ebike owner to volunteer on federal land trails project is about the same as asking a regular mountain biker to volunteer on a wilderness trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Pedal assist or not, the bike has a motor. How simply does this have to be explained to you?

    State definitions are really not applicable on trails. Different issues and definitions apply. Those state definitions define how those vehicles get regulated on open roads.

    Alternatives:
    ---Define even pedal assist ebikes as motorcycles. Requires a registration through the DMV and a plate to use on pavement. They don't fit that definition, really.

    ---Create a new definition category for these. I have seen some of this occurring (very limited basis) and it seems to really only be happening when states have legislators that actually understand the issues and the mechanical differences between ebikes and other two-wheeled transportation. Ebikes really are new territory due to technology and they really belong in their own regulatory/management category. But this option requires knowledge and work to apply well. So most will avoid it for awhile.

    So now we reach the point where even pedal assist ebikes get lumped with bicycles for street use. Because it's easy, and they're closer in behavior to actual bicycles than they are to my father's Harley. But there are notable differences, and the major one being the presence of a MOTOR that adds power to the rider's own output. It's worth noting that in NONE of the states that define an ebike as a bicycle, are land managers (even public land managers) required to use that same definition and management on TRAILS. Trails are different, and each land manager is mostly free to develop their own management plans regarding trails. Closed/gated roads are considered similarly. I know plenty of places where the majority of gated gravel roads on public land are not even open to regular bicycles.

    The land managers on the ground see the differences firsthand. A lot of them see the implications and difficulties of even allowing limited ebike use. Legislating something that makes sense intellectually is oftentimes MUCH easier than implementing that on the ground. And I have a very strong feeling that this is why ebike access is so vastly different from regular mountain bike access. This is why ebike advocates need to work on THEIR OWN LEVEL to close that gap. Don't expect 100% human powered mountain bikers to advocate on their behalf. Don't expect riders of 100% human powered mountain bikes to advocate everything exactly the way you like it, either. Because you won't like the outcome there, either. That's like asking thoroughbred horse racers to advocate for backcountry horse trails. They're different types of horse riders who use different facilities. They ride different horses.

    An ebike is different from a regular bicycle. The motor is the major difference, but we're also seeing differences cropping up in other components built specifically for ebikes. Suspension, drivetrains, etc. They're distancing themselves from regular mtb's even further, so the argument that they're basically the same holds less weight the more ebike specific components pop up on the market.

    Ebikers are going to have to do their own advocacy work. Talk to land managers and set yourselves up as good examples. Work within the system to get access to trails and land run by different managers. Show up to management plan meetings. Submit comments during public comment periods. Show land managers success stories at other properties and they'll be more likely to carve a place for you in their management plans. Don't delude yourselves into thinking you're the same as 100% human powered bicycles, because you're not. The motor makes all the difference, even if it's only pedal assist.
    Great post, Harold. Thank you. I did not know that gated roads were not always open to bikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logover View Post
    After testing out a e-bike my self a couple of years ago in Charlotte I have several concerns about them and in my opinion do not belong on trails that are having issues being maintained or impose rider conflict. My explanation below with some other observations I have seen.
    Alot has changed in the last two years regarding e-mtb technology. I encourage you to try a new mid-drive FS, if you get a chance. I think you will walk away with much different observations.

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    There are no ebike signs up all through Pisgah, but they are confusing and unclear. I've had several hikers point to the stickers and ask why we were riding bikes on the trail when there is a bike with a cross through it. It didn't occur to them that it was an ebike on the sign until I pointed it out. I think the design used could use some revision to avoid more confusion later down the line and this is something I think needs to be addressed sooner rather than later. I'm also not really sure how much they accomplish and whether they help more than they hurt.

    That said, I've seen several in both Pisgah and DuPont. I had a conversation with the riders on them, mostly older guys, who said they basically ride them to help keep pace with their younger counterparts. They weren't riding at 16mph, they were riding with other folks on the fire roads that most people climb on, then descending all the same. I've encountered a handful of these and none of them would have been identifiable as ebikes by their speed or behavior alone.

    I think all the arguments made against ebikes are the exact same arguments hikers are using to keep bikes off trails in the forest. We can keep regurgitating the same arguments, but I've seen nearly the same complaints from hikers all over about normal bikes, almost like they were cut and pasted and "mountain bike" was replaced with "ebike". It's discouraging and makes me a bit sad to see that our community is following the same trends as those who are trying to keep us out of the forest.

    That said, I understand the land use issue and that's the only reason I support a ban on ebikes. The fact is, our current society in the US can't get over their selfish mentality enough to educate themselves on things other people are involved in (or just not care in general), as a result we'll all get grouped together and it'll turn into a slippery slope argument and make the conversation more difficult. It's unfortunate, but we are having enough trouble with keeping access in the forest and need to just avoid the conversation altogether by supporting them not being allowed.

    I really don't think this is an issue worth harping on beyond that. I don't think we'll see a huge surge of ebikes around here, maybe a few here and there, but they don't seem popular in the US. For whatever reason, they seem more popular in Europe, but that may be due to access and social issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    Great post, Harold. Thank you. I did not know that gated roads were not always open to bikes.
    It varies from place to place. Some places (even different USFS districts) follow a "closed unless expressly open" policy. Others operate the other direction. This is partly why blanket national policies regarding ebikes will NEVER happen. It doesn't exist for pedal-only bikes, either, and it hasn't for a very long time. The only time it sorta did happen was before mountain bikes got big, and before anyone really had any kind of policies regarding mountain bike user management.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    There are no ebike signs up all through Pisgah, but they are confusing and unclear. I've had several hikers point to the stickers and ask why we were riding bikes on the trail when there is a bike with a cross through it. It didn't occur to them that it was an ebike on the sign until I pointed it out. I think the design used could use some revision to avoid more confusion later down the line and this is something I think needs to be addressed sooner rather than later. I'm also not really sure how much they accomplish and whether they help more than they hurt.
    I haven't encountered this one yet. I imagine it's only a matter of time, because I did a doubletake myself the first time I saw those signs. And even my wife recently expressed confusion about one of them, and whether it applied to all bikes. The "e" inside the rear wheel and the plug inside the logo didn't register at first. This is related to the major reason I see mt bikers oppose ebikes on trails, is because the average nonbike user isn't going to call the local office to complain about an ebiker behaving poorly. They're going to complain about the biker behaving poorly. So the distinction won't get passed on to the manager. It's a relevant distinction.

    That said, I've seen several in both Pisgah and DuPont. I had a conversation with the riders on them, mostly older guys, who said they basically ride them to help keep pace with their younger counterparts. They weren't riding at 16mph, they were riding with other folks on the fire roads that most people climb on, then descending all the same. I've encountered a handful of these and none of them would have been identifiable as ebikes by their speed or behavior alone.
    I really have no problem with ebikes being used this way. It's how it should be, tbh. I've seen them used this way at many places that technically prohibit ebikes. I might give them a "be careful" tip, because their bikes are prohibited, but I'm not going to call and report someone for this. But, the big caveat is related to your next comment. Those people aren't the only ones. You only need to troll through youtube to watch vids about people doing illegal mods to their ebikes to make them perform more like a motorcycle, or vids of people who bought one of the overpowered kits on ebay that does make the bike perform like a motorcycle. That's another aspect of the selfishness issue, too.

    That said, I understand the land use issue and that's the only reason I support a ban on ebikes. The fact is, our current society in the US can't get over their selfish mentality enough to educate themselves on things other people are involved in (or just not care in general), as a result we'll all get grouped together and it'll turn into a slippery slope argument and make the conversation more difficult. It's unfortunate, but we are having enough trouble with keeping access in the forest and need to just avoid the conversation altogether by supporting them not being allowed.

    I really don't think this is an issue worth harping on beyond that. I don't think we'll see a huge surge of ebikes around here, maybe a few here and there, but they don't seem popular in the US. For whatever reason, they seem more popular in Europe, but that may be due to access and social issues.
    I think ebike access will become more widespread and accepted in the states. What will need to happen, though, is for people who ride stock class 1 models to get together, distance themselves from the modding crowd, and show land managers that the way they ride is little to no different from the way pedal-only mtb riders ride. They need to avoid the whole handicap/mobility argument, though. Like I said above, it's mostly bunk. Federal law does NOT consider ebikes to be mobility devices. Just stick with the simple point that a lot of ebike riders ride one so they (as a less fit individual) can keep up with their more fit mtb rider friends. I still think heavier ebikes are a liability in backcountry settings, but that's an addressable challenge.

    This document addresses the USFS stance on the issue. It's certainly on the conservative side of things, but you can't say it's not logical. This means that if ebikers want designations/permissions changed, then they NEED TO BE at USFS planning meetings, especially when master planning or Travel Management Rule issues come up. This document reads to me that for ebikes to be permitted on nonmotorized trails, then new rules need to be written that specifically address ebikes. Because as of now, their position on ebikes on trails is related to the existing definitions for road and trail use that they are currently following. That's not going to happen until the forest staff sees it as a priority. Every other stakeholder showing up to those meetings is going to have their own issues and priorities and they're not going to advocate for ebikers. Ebikers will have to do that themselves.

    https://peopleforbikes.org/wp-conten...Fed-2016-1.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    I bet you are probably speculating...if you want an actual comparison, I average 7.4 mph on my emtb vs around 6 mph on my Turner Sultan.
    Ebikers claim that they are slower on decents than actual bikes, so you are only increasing speed on climbs. Most likely you are doubling your climbing speed. That is what causes problems. A one way trail, have at it. Multi use non directional trail, you have no business riding those.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Ebikers claim that they are slower on decents than actual bikes, so you are only increasing speed on climbs. Most likely you are doubling your climbing speed. That is what causes problems. A one way trail, have at it. Multi use non directional trail, you have no business riding those.
    Actually, I lose time in the flats (50 pound bike with power off),gain it back on the climbs and descents are about the same(power off). My climbing speed is not any faster than a 150 pound fit rider can do on a non-emtb.

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    You guys can take all your long words and go pound sand. Cycle with a motor is a motorcycle. Anything else is hand-waving sophistry. You don't deserve special dispensation to ride a motorcycle just because you're unable to ride a bicycle as fast as you'd like to. I'm the sh^ttiest technical rider in Pisgah because I'm handicapped with sucking, but I'm not lobbying to be allowed a 4-wheeler to compensate. If you want to ride a motorcycle, be a motorcyclist. This is beyond ridiculous.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    You guys can take all your long words and go pound sand. Cycle with a motor is a motorcycle. Anything else is hand-waving sophistry. You don't deserve special dispensation to ride a motorcycle just because you're unable to ride a bicycle as fast as you'd like to. I'm the sh^ttiest technical rider in Pisgah because I'm handicapped with sucking, but I'm not lobbying to be allowed a 4-wheeler to compensate. If you want to ride a motorcycle, be a motorcyclist. This is beyond ridiculous.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    You guys can take all your long words and go pound sand. Cycle with a motor is a motorcycle. Anything else is hand-waving sophistry.
    Good job on sophisty, if nothing else gets done here,maybe we can improve our vocabulary. I do think your post is a bit myopic because when the no motorized vehicles rule was implemented, motors were internal combustion and as we all know, it takes a veritable act of congress to get anything changed on federal lands.
    I tend to think that moving forward, we are going to see a distinction between internal combustion and electric on federal lands.
    That door was already cracked in 36 code of fed reg (CFR) 212.1
    which allows electric wheel chairs in Wilderness.

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    Most guys on Ebikes are current or past mtbrs who understand Trail etiquette. The trail dictates the speed period. Iím not old or disabled and own a Levo. Why? Itís fun. I ride it legally so whose to judge what people do for entertainment? Donít like them, donít buy them. The same guy having a cold one post ride, could be a damn ebiker! The horror...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    The trail dictates the speed period.
    Then why doesn't everyone ride at the same speed on the same trail? A riders ability and mentality dictates the speed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Most guys on Ebikes are current or past mtbrs who understand Trail etiquette. The trail dictates the speed period. Iím not old or disabled and own a Levo. Why? Itís fun. I ride it legally so whose to judge what people do for entertainment? Donít like them, donít buy them. The same guy having a cold one post ride, could be a damn ebiker! The horror...
    Oh, so our legs, skills and in your case, motors have nothing to do with the speed at which we make our way up or down a trail?

    Interesting theory.


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    Open site lines- faster speed. Tight singletrack, tech features-slower speeds, no matter what your riding. A guy that can haul ass up a technical steep climb on a ebike or mtb is someone that is skilled. Iíd much rather encounter them then some jack bringing his girlfriend down a black diamond trail. Again, idc if yíall like Ebikes or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Open site lines- faster speed.

    Only if you want to go faster and have the power to do it. There are a lot of people who would like to go faster on wide open trail sections but lack the required horsepower, sometimes I'm one of those people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Only if you want to go faster and have the power to do it. There are a lot of people who would like to go faster on wide open trail sections but lack the required horsepower, sometimes I'm one of those people.
    I agree. Everybody believes ebike riders max the bike out everywhere as fast as possible, because thatís what we do on our mtbs. In my case, I donít. Donít have to. I ride very low assist in the woods, unless Iím on a fire road, whatever. The bike taps out at 17mph. Btw, I tried JB Weld twice to try and fix my Kuerig, but no such luck!
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    It's amusing to see the insular, mountain bike fundamentalists referring to class 1 pedal-assist e-mtbs as motorcycles. Ask 100 people to describe a motorcycle and they will all tell you they are noisy, gas-powered and you sure as hell can't pedal them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    Ask 100 people to describe a motorcycle and they will all tell you they are noisy, gas-powered and you sure as hell can't pedal them.
    Only if you led them, more likely the typical answer would be something like a 2-wheeled vehicle with a motor.

    Ask 100 people if bicycles have motors and I bet at least 90 say no.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    It's amusing to see the insular, mountain bike fundamentalists referring to class 1 pedal-assist e-mtbs as motorcycles. Ask 100 people to describe a motorcycle and they will all tell you they are noisy, gas-powered and you sure as hell can't pedal them.
    It doesn't matter what 100 random people think, just the land managers. And as of right now USFS says that e-bikes are motor vehicles. I sure as hell hope it stays that way. So go tell the USFS that they are a bunch of 'insular mountain bike fundamentalists'.

    It's painful watching you guys twist around to justify this nonsense. E-bikes are cool - just ride them where motorized vehicles are allowed. Easy. Simple. Done.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    It doesn't matter what 100 random people think, just the land managers. And as of right now USFS says that e-bikes are motor vehicles. I sure as hell hope it stays that way. So go tell the USFS that they are a bunch of 'insular mountain bike fundamentalists'.

    It's painful watching you guys twist around to justify this nonsense. E-bikes are cool - just ride them where motorized vehicles are allowed. Easy. Simple. Done.
    I have no intention of telling the USFS that they are insular mountain bike fundamentalists. Is it not obvious enough who that comment was directled at ?
    It's equally painful to watch you twist around the definition of motorcycles to justify your point of view. It seems that you want to be the guardian of the forest,when we are all equal shareholders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    I have no intention of telling the USFS that they are insular mountain bike fundamentalists.
    Why not? They agree with me... for now, at least.

    The USFS defines e-bikes as motorized vehicles and regulates them as such. Shall I quote chapter and verse? I know you and folks like you are doing everything you can to change that, as is your right, but for now that is the truth.

    'Cycle + motor = motorcycle' is twisting, but some arbitrary set of maximum speeds and power outputs is not? *shrug*

    We ARE all equal shareholders, which means that we are all equally allowed to make our views on management known. My view is that e-bikes belong only on roads / trails designated for use by motor vehicles.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post

    We ARE all equal shareholders, which means that we are all equally allowed to make our views on management known.
    Hey, something we can agree on, great ! This may come as a surprise to you, but I don't think having e-mtbs in the Pisgah district is a good idea, since it is already overcrowded and conflicts are resulting in trail loss. I just wish you guys would be more amenable to allowing e-mtbs elsewhere. It rubs me the wrong way when my mtb brothers try to send me off to the OHV reservation and lump my class one pedal-assist bike with MOTORCYCLES. Fracturing the mtb community is not going to help any of us to gain access.

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    Ride on with your e-bike, seriously! I've got nothing against them on private land, designated areas, etc. My only beef is with the position that Class 1's should just be given carte blanche to all MTB trails. Sounds like we agree more than not.

    Cheers!
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    Ride on with your e-bike, seriously! I've got nothing against them on private land, designated areas, etc. My only beef is with the position that Class 1's should just be given carte blanche to all MTB trails. Sounds like we agree more than not.

    Cheers!
    Live and let live. If you ever get over to Boone, send me a message and I'll buy you a beer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    You guys can take all your long words and go pound sand. Cycle with a motor is a motorcycle. Anything else is hand-waving sophistry. You don't deserve special dispensation to ride a motorcycle just because you're unable to ride a bicycle as fast as you'd like to. I'm the sh^ttiest technical rider in Pisgah because I'm handicapped with sucking, but I'm not lobbying to be allowed a 4-wheeler to compensate. If you want to ride a motorcycle, be a motorcyclist. This is beyond ridiculous.
    Thank-you Broussard. No other words, or discussion is necessary. Plain and simple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    You guys can take all your long words and go pound sand. Cycle with a motor is a motorcycle. Anything else is hand-waving sophistry. You don't deserve special dispensation to ride a motorcycle just because you're unable to ride a bicycle as fast as you'd like to. I'm the sh^ttiest technical rider in Pisgah because I'm handicapped with sucking, but I'm not lobbying to be allowed a 4-wheeler to compensate. If you want to ride a motorcycle, be a motorcyclist. This is beyond ridiculous.
    This is 100% correct. It's the M-O-T-O-R, duh.
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    Man, this thread. Yes, the motor and the fact that some want to pretend that ďebikesĒ are the same as actual bikes, and should be treated the same. Meanwhile, mountain bikers everywhere are trying to distance themselves. Theyíre not the same. Pretending they are is silly. Where does it stop? The notion that ebikes are different because, theyíre electric, and not a 2 or 4 stroke is also silly. Itís not a noise/smell issue. And to claim so, is really just a hell of a stretch.


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    They are different, no doubt. They are fueling the industry. I doubt they will be allowed everywhere, but after awhile weíll see more class 1 pedelecs show up.
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    They are also different than moto bikes, so saying they(pedal assisted ebikes) are motorcycles just because they have a motor isn't correct, either. I've ridden on a trail that was popular with moto folks (Emma Long in TX) and riding an ebike among them would not exactly fit in, either. Bikes with a throttle tend to be considerably more powerful, larger, and faster, riding a pedal assisted ebike among them wouldn't be that much different than a regular bike.

    I don't think anyone is trying to argue they are the same as actual bikes, rather than the fear of them running people down or doing trail damage is largely unfounded. We can agree that they aren't bikes and should be handled differently, but also say the blanket ban on them on mountain bike trails isn't reasonable.

    So where do they fit? They either get in the way of the other motorized throttle bikes or are too fast for mountain bike trails, where do they belong? I don't think it's up to us to answer that question, but we need to stop pissing all over the ebike community over unfounded fears the exact same way hikers treat us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Ebikers are going to have to do their own advocacy work.
    I did not fully understand this comment when I first read it, after reading
    IMBA's softer stance on e-bikes in November;
    "IMBA now supports class 1 e-mtb access to non-motorized trails when local trail and cycling groups agree it's appropriate (on non-federal land)". I realize now, that 90% their locally affiliated members are not buying in, and would not support e-mtbs in any place or time for fear of losing their standing with land managers.
    Now I get it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    I did not fully understand this comment when I first read it, after reading
    IMBA's softer stance on e-bikes in November;
    "IMBA now supports class 1 e-mtb access to non-motorized trails when local trail and cycling groups agree it's appropriate (on non-federal land)". I realize now, that 90% their locally affiliated members are not buying in, and would not support e-mtbs in any place or time for fear of losing their standing with land managers.
    Now I get it.
    Because ebikes ARE different from bicycles, ebikers should not expect to piggyback on other mtb advocacy efforts. It's not going to work that way because of the notable differences between the bikes in question.

    What y'all need to do is form your own advocacy group(s) to push for access to trail systems. Sometimes, your goals will align with mtbers. Sometimes not. But mtbikers are not going to do ebikers' advocacy work for them. THAT is what I meant by my comment. It had nothing to do with IMBA's position.

    mtbikers have had to work hard for their standing with land managers. Much of that standing has come from positioning ourselves as an important volunteer labor force. But also for becoming extremely knowledgeable about better ways to build trails.

    maybe ebikers could just throw money at the issue and carve out a spot, but there aren't enough ebikers out there for that to make much difference. I expect y'all are going to have to go a similar route with the volunteer labor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Because ebikes ARE different from bicycles, ebikers should not expect to piggyback on other mtb advocacy efforts. It's not going to work that way because of the notable differences between the bikes in question.

    What y'all need to do is form your own advocacy group(s) to push for access to trail systems. Sometimes, your goals will align with mtbers. Sometimes not. But mtbikers are not going to do ebikers' advocacy work for them. THAT is what I meant by my comment. It had nothing to do with IMBA's position.

    mtbikers have had to work hard for their standing with land managers. Much of that standing has come from positioning ourselves as an important volunteer labor force. But also for becoming extremely knowledgeable about better ways to build trails.

    maybe ebikers could just throw money at the issue and carve out a spot, but there aren't enough ebikers out there for that to make much difference. I expect y'all are going to have to go a similar route with the volunteer labor.
    Reading IMBA's statement, you would think that ebike and the non-ebike factions could work together. Not so. PAS is going to oppose ebikes at every turn (federal or non-federal) for fear of how any co-operation with e-mtbs would look to the USFS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    Reading IMBA's statement, you would think that ebike and the non-ebike factions could work together. Not so. PAS is going to oppose ebikes at every turn (federal or non-federal) for fear of how any co-operation with e-mtbs would look to the USFS.
    PAS is not an ebike organization. Why should they?

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    They shouldn't, if they choose to ignore IMBA, but they should at least not oppose ebikes so vigorously to please the USFS. It's one thing not wanting to help ebikes gain access, which is fine, but to oppose is another. If we can't work together, let's at least try to coexist. Live and let live.
    Last edited by 1-track-mind; 05-09-2018 at 11:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    Actually, I lose time in the flats (50 pound bike with power off),gain it back on the climbs and descents are about the same(power off). My climbing speed is not any faster than a 150 pound fit rider can do on a non-emtb.
    That's a load of sh!t, why would you even ride an ebike then. You can cruise a fifty pound bike around but only use it for climbs? Turn it off on the flats- c'mon dude
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    That's a load of sh!t, why would you even ride an ebike then. You can cruise a fifty pound bike around but only use it for climbs? Turn it off on the flats- c'mon dude
    That's the way I roll, sue me...three long rides per charge.

    Hey listen, I know Cueto and BUM are on the DL and you are angry about it, but take it out on someone else. I'm a Giants fan for Pete's sake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    but we need to stop pissing all over the ebike community over unfounded fears the exact same way hikers treat us.
    Don't worry about it, it worked for the hikers, why not?
    Last edited by 1-track-mind; 05-10-2018 at 02:16 AM.

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    Let's just be honest about it. Ebikes are not the problem with current conflicts with other trail users, but merely a convenient scapegoat. 90% of the PAS members oppose e-mtbs and more importantly, so does the USFS along with the Brevard LBS. Draw your own conclusions as to why there is so much anti-ebike sentiment.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    Let's just be honest about it. Ebikes are not the problem with current conflicts with other trail users, but merely a convenient scapegoat. 90% of the PAS members oppose e-mtbs and more importantly, so does the USFS along with the Brevard LBS. Draw your own conclusions as to why there is so much anti-ebike sentiment.
    Nobody said it was. Where do you get this stuff? Ebikes, largely are illegal here. We donít see them much, so how could they be the problem. They just make things worse.


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    Just reading stuff here and there. Enough said.
    Last edited by 1-track-mind; 05-10-2018 at 02:03 AM.

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    I guess it's time to drop this. We all could be a little more altruistic, including myself. The land managers everywhere have a tough job anytime there is a multi-use situation. I can see why they are reluctant to add another user group to the mix.
    Last edited by 1-track-mind; 05-10-2018 at 02:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    Let's just be honest about it. Ebikes are not the problem with current conflicts with other trail users, but merely a convenient scapegoat. 90% of the PAS members oppose e-mtbs and more importantly, so does the USFS along with the Brevard LBS. Draw your own conclusions as to why there is so much anti-ebike sentiment.
    So now you're jumping to conclusions about the shops, too? After having worked in shops for many years, I can say that ebikes present some major issues for a shop simply from a maintenance and support side of things. All those electrical components are things that bike shop employees have to learn anew. Electronic drivetrains do to some extent, but honestly SRAM and Shimano have done a pretty bang-up job of simplifying the things that shop mechanics need to know to service those components. Ebike manufacturers...not so much. I have seen various components, including batteries, need replacement on ebikes. Dealing with that kind of stuff is difficult for shops. And not every shop wants to mess with that hassle. It doesn't always have to do with the conclusions you're so fond of jumping to.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    I guess it's time to drop this. We all could be a little more altruistic, including myself. The land managers everywhere have a tough job anytime there is a multi-use situation. I can see why they are reluctant to add another user group to the mix.
    Yes, maybe you should. Trying to get the non-ebike-riding mtb population interested in advocating for ebikes is a waste of time. Really only a small number are going to be hostile towards your goals. They're obviously going to be the most vocal about it. The vast majority simply don't care. Let that part stick with you. Your BS about "90% of PAS members oppose ebikes" is contrived garbage. Have you personally asked 100% of PAS members this question? I guarantee not. You're just making shit up.

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    [QUOTE=Harold;13654121]How do you propose underfunded and understaffed agencies police which electric motorized vehicles to allow?

    Sent from my SM
    Kinda like the way we self police now with trail signage and fines listed on signs. I think people get it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Kinda like the way we self police now with trail signage and fines listed on signs. I think people get it.
    How many extra signs do you figure that's going to require throughout the forest cover? What about questions of violations? How do you suggest rangers verify that questionable ebikes meet the requirements? Right now, it's about as easy as it gets - if it has a motor/battery, then it's in violation.

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    It would have been just as easy if it has wheels - its banned. Oh wait, we've been there.
    It's all new and nobody likes change. We ride in an area that has blown up and now all the locals hate the growth, as they want the forest to ourselves. I get it. But look at what it brings economically to the area. You don't think bike shops that are barely solvent now don't want more opportunity for revenue? How about the e-bike demographics, older, mature, and have cash. Restaurants, bars everything would thrive. Everybody sees only the downside and the problems instead of solutions. I don't have all the answers, but one thing for certain is they are here and they will grow. You may see poaching everywhere. I don't want that, rather a compromise. Is that illogical?
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  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    It would have been just as easy if it has wheels - its banned. Oh wait, we've been there.
    It's all new and nobody likes change. We ride in an area that has blown up and now all the locals hate the growth, as they want the forest to ourselves. I get it. But look at what it brings economically to the area. You don't think bike shops that are barely solvent now don't want more opportunity for revenue? How about the e-bike demographics, older, mature, and have cash. Restaurants, bars everything would thrive. Everybody sees only the downside and the problems instead of solutions. I don't have all the answers, but one thing for certain is they are here and they will grow. You may see poaching everywhere. I don't want that, rather a compromise. Is that illogical?
    Without answers to legitimate questions, then no compromise can or will occur.

  85. #85
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    Are you a land manager?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Are you a land manager?
    No, but I am currently staff on a land management team (private property, don't have anything to do with bikes), and I've worked with several over the years, including being an employee on a couple of USFS districts. I have a little bit of insight into the kinds of questions they ask, and the sorts of issues that they seek to address.

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    Cool man, Iíve been in the forestry industry most of my adult life. I understand the issues. Whatís bs is the ďotherĒ arguments. I.E - Lazy, Trail erosion, motorcycles etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    How many extra signs do you figure that's going to require throughout the forest cover? What about questions of violations? How do you suggest rangers verify that questionable ebikes meet the requirements? Right now, it's about as easy as it gets - if it has a motor/battery, then it's in violation.
    Nothing is really enforced now, either. I doubt any tickets have been written for ebikes in the forest. Maybe I'm riding in the wrong places, but I've never once encountered a forest ranger on a trail in Pisgah. Of the things they have to deal with, chasing down ebikes is probably pretty low on the list.

    Until the USFS gets more funding, and even then, rules in Pisgah will be loosely enforced and it's up to the community to make sure they are followed. I don't think in the current state of things, we can justify rule changes one way or another based on how easy they are to enforce, because they probably won't be enforced at all.

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    But that is really where I am going with all of this, anyway. Enforcement is so minimal now that there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that the land managers are going to allow new uses that increase the level of attention they have to pay to trail users on a day to day basis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    Nothing is really enforced now, either. I doubt any tickets have been written for ebikes in the forest. Maybe I'm riding in the wrong places, but I've never once encountered a forest ranger on a trail in Pisgah. Of the things they have to deal with, chasing down ebikes is probably pretty low on the list.

    Until the USFS gets more funding, and even then, rules in Pisgah will be loosely enforced and it's up to the community to make sure they are followed. I don't think in the current state of things, we can justify rule changes one way or another based on how easy they are to enforce, because they probably won't be enforced at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Your BS about "90% of PAS members oppose ebikes" is contrived garbage. Have you personally asked 100% of PAS members this question? I guarantee not. You're just making shit up.
    That is straight from the horses mouth (J.K.) two days ago.
    90% in a survey of their 300 members. I don't appreciate your attitude.
    You can apologize any time. Call up JK if you don't believe me.

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    I wanted to move on from this discussion, but when the resident condescending know it all questions my integrity, I just have to respond...90% Of PAS Members oppose ebikes. That's straight from the horse's mouth in a May 09,2018 conversation. Call the head honcho if you don't believe me.
    Last edited by 1-track-mind; 05-17-2018 at 03:21 AM.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    I wanted to move on from this discussion, but when the resident condescending know it all starts talking out of his ass, I just have to respond...90% Of PAS Members oppose ebikes. That's straight from the horse's mouth in a May 09,2018 conversation. Call the head honcho if you don't believe me.
    LOL. 90% of local cycling advocates disagree with your stance, and you're bragging about it because you think you won an argument.

    Can you also cite the survey you are referencing here -
    "Ask 100 people to describe a motorcycle and they will all tell you they are noisy, gas-powered and you sure as hell can't pedal them."

    You're windier than a sack of farts, duder.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    That is straight from the horses mouth (J.K.) two days ago.
    90% in a survey of their 300 members. I don't appreciate your attitude.
    You can apologize any time. Call up JK if you don't believe me.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    I wanted to move on from this discussion, but when the resident condescending know it all starts talking out of his ass, I just have to respond...90% Of PAS Members oppose ebikes. That's straight from the horse's mouth in a May 09,2018 conversation. Call the head honcho if you don't believe me.
    Maybe you need a lesson in interpretation of survey results.

    I guarantee they didn't get 100% survey response rate unless they watched each member fill out the survey. IME, 25% is a good return rate on these sorts of things. So, pray tell, what was the survey response rate? Because a survey is just a sample of a population. Especially with surveys that are not professionally written, you can't really extrapolate responses from the small group who actually responded, to those who didn't. Was the survey accessible by non-PAS members? It probably was, since these kinds of surveys usually are, which means it can be difficult to figure out how many actual members answered it.

    One major reason that you can't really extrapolate responses onto those who didn't respond, what was the EXACT question asked? What were the possible responses? The reason that professionally-written surveys give you better responses is because people are easily led by questions. Maybe this survey didn't have enough answer options to cover the possible range of opinions regarding ebikes. Maybe people were led by a question that presented the issue as an "oppose" or "support" scenario. Maybe the question was even so leading that it reflected a bias against ebikes from whoever wrote it. And even professionally written surveys are not immune from bias in the questions. But it's usually reduced when efforts are taken by professionals to reduce it.

    Another major reason addresses whether those who responded answer in a way that's representative of the entire targeted community. Usually not. Those who respond are typically the more engaged members of the community. Those who don't are less so, and often hold different opinions than the survey respondents.

    I can tell you that I'm a PAS member (since the fall) and I don't recall answering a survey question about ebikes. I suppose it's possible that I did and don't remember. I certainly don't claim infallibility.

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    I had a good chat with Jeff Keener on May 09 on the subject of ebikes, seemed like a really nice guy. Call him and confirm if you need to, but please, don't question my integrity before you do it.

    In the course of a cordial conversation, he said 90% of the PAS members are opposed to ebikes on two surveys. I don't know the dates or specifics, but I took his word on that. I agreed with him that ebikes did not need to be on the Pisgah District trails, given the current conflicts between mountain bikers and other user groups, but that I hoped there might be some openings on non-federal land. He was not optimistic about that happening in the Asheville/Brevard area.

    I realize that I'm going against the grain on the issue of ebikes, but my goodness, the tenor of the opposition to ebikes is just not something I would expect out of the Asheville/Brevard crowd. It's clear that y'all don't want to include e-bikes in the mountain bike community, but is it really going to help your position to start a feud with "another" user group ?

    One thing I learned is that the new IMBA stance has not taken root in PAS.
    Last edited by 1-track-mind; 05-15-2018 at 01:05 PM.

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    I just want to know when they are going to start putting in the charging stations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    They shouldn't, if they choose to ignore IMBA
    PAS isn't ignoring IMBA. IMBA said they support ebikes "when local trail and cycling groups agree it's appropriate." PAS (a local cycling group) doesn't think they're appropriate. Ergo, at this point, IMBA doesn't support ebikes in Pisgah since the local groups don't. Or am I way off?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
    I realize that I'm going against the grain on the issue of ebikes, but my goodness, the tenor of the opposition to ebikes is just not something I would expect out of the Asheville/Brevard crowd.
    Who would have thought that users of an over-used and under-funded trail system, that sees a ton of rainfall and the maintenance issues that comes with it, has had to fight to be taken seriously by the managers of said trail system, wouldn't be psyched to welcome even more trail users that will hasten the degradation of the trails, possibly cause user conflicts that will be attributed to them (since no hiker will realize if it's an ebike that hit their kid), and possibly get trails closed to them? Shocker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COTarHeel View Post
    Who would have thought that users of an over-used and under-funded trail system, that sees a ton of rainfall and the maintenance issues that comes with it, has had to fight to be taken seriously by the managers of said trail system, wouldn't be psyched to welcome even more trail users that will hasten the degradation of the trails, possibly cause user conflicts that will be attributed to them (since no hiker will realize if it's an ebike that hit their kid), and possibly get trails closed to them? Shocker.
    Most ebikers Iíve encountered are not new to the sport. You should have the same amount of riders on the trail system and Iíll tell you from experience that my Levo does not do anymore damage to trails. In fact the ebiker demographic IME is older, wealthier, and generally more chill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Most ebikers Iíve encountered are not new to the sport. You should have the same amount of riders on the trail system and Iíll tell you from experience that my Levo does not do anymore damage to trails. In fact the ebiker demographic IME is older, wealthier, and generally more chill.
    I didn't say new. People riding longer than they otherwise would = more users.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Most ebikers Iíve encountered are not new to the sport. You should have the same amount of riders on the trail system and Iíll tell you from experience that my Levo does not do anymore damage to trails. In fact the ebiker demographic IME is older, wealthier, and generally more chill.
    Since this thread is about e-bikes at Bent Creek, I'm hoping these ebikers you've encountered are staying on the gravel roads, since they are not allowed on the trails there.

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    I've seen 1 ebike in bent creek in the last 2yrs, he was on Ledford rd. Haven't seen any in Pisgah. I'd hardly consider them a problem. I also don't see how they are anymore likely to run into anything more than the normal biker. Yeah they can go faster uphill easier but is that really when you can't see well enough to notice hikers or other bikers? It's the downhill that's most bikers haul ass down. Ebikes aren't any faster downhill.

    I'm not saying I want ebikes out there I just think the "damage" they cause supposedly is blown way out of proportion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarlosTheJerk View Post
    I've seen 1 ebike in bent creek in the last 2yrs, he was on Ledford rd. Haven't seen any in Pisgah. I'd hardly consider them a problem. I also don't see how they are anymore likely to run into anything more than the normal biker. Yeah they can go faster uphill easier but is that really when you can't see well enough to notice hikers or other bikers? It's the downhill that's most bikers haul ass down. Ebikes aren't any faster downhill.

    I'm not saying I want ebikes out there I just think the "damage" they cause supposedly is blown way out of proportion.
    Ok, think about it... If a downhill rider is already going fast, and now the uphill rider is going faster than they were before, what do you think the problem is?

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    I still think 9 times out of 10 there is enough visibility to see and have time to slow down and move over. I'm not saying it can't be a problem it just like they are looked at as the devil who is going to ruin biking.

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    Then that's 1 out of 10 times a collision is possible. There have been numerous times that I have been riding downhill and came closer to hikers, bikers and horses than I felt comfortable, and I honesly feel that I am a very responsible rider. If I had come across an ebiker going uphill, we would have had some nasty collisions.

    Also, it's a slippery slope for mountain bike trail access. I know the arguments against slippery slope arguments, but it is almost impossible for land managers to differentiate and enforce different classes of ebikes. Even Class 1 ebikes enable much higher speeds on climbs.

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    I don't live in the area but 20+ years ago my dad and I used to ride together in Pisgah and Tsali all the time. He loved biking, it was one of his favorite things to do. He would always lament that he didn't start mountain biking sooner while he was younger (though at the time Mountain biking was still in it's infancy). He's in his 60's now and nerve damage doesn't allow him to move his left foot up and down which makes for very inefficient pedaling so he doesn't feel comfortable riding off road any more. He's looked at E-bikes a couple of times but never took the plunge since they weren't allowed on any of the trails around where he lives. I kind of wish there was some type of Handicap tag he could gets that would allow him trail access so I could ride with both my son and my dad cause that would be amazingly cool. If you were to have asked me a couple of years ago I would have been on the absolutely no E-bike access camp. Now that the issue has become more personal I'm relaxing my stance on the subject a little.
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  106. #106
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    I saw an "ebike" at Bent Creek this week. The person had no helmet on, the electric motor was LOUD, it had small diameter 16" wheels that were about 10" wide. Full throttle on Homestead- faster than anybody could pedal, at least 20mph in the flats on the same trail families haul their kids to the beach on to avoid the rec area fees.

    That's why there's a ban, because there's no way to filter/monitor user behavior and/or legitimate need.

    I will say, the dude stopped and was cool to talk to, listened to my polite feedback and said he was just trying to head to the gravel roads at that point, he'd talked to other bikers too.

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    Jefferson County has done some research regarding ebikes on trails if anyone cares to read it. They're about halfway down the page. Its nice because this started a couple of years ago and anyone who has ridden in Jeffco knows its a heavily used area with mixed use just like here.

    https://www.jeffco.us/3339/Research

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeoreDX View Post
    I don't live in the area but 20+ years ago my dad and I used to ride together in Pisgah and Tsali all the time. He loved biking, it was one of his favorite things to do. He would always lament that he didn't start mountain biking sooner while he was younger (though at the time Mountain biking was still in it's infancy). He's in his 60's now and nerve damage doesn't allow him to move his left foot up and down which makes for very inefficient pedaling so he doesn't feel comfortable riding off road any more. He's looked at E-bikes a couple of times but never took the plunge since they weren't allowed on any of the trails around where he lives. I kind of wish there was some type of Handicap tag he could gets that would allow him trail access so I could ride with both my son and my dad cause that would be amazingly cool. If you were to have asked me a couple of years ago I would have been on the absolutely no E-bike access camp. Now that the issue has become more personal I'm relaxing my stance on the subject a little.
    So he's not comfortable riding offroad because of nerve damage, but an ebike is going to help that?

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    So he's not comfortable riding offroad because of nerve damage, but an ebike is going to help that?
    Let me quote myself since it seems like you seemed to skim over what I wrote.

    "... doesn't allow him to move his left foot up and down which makes for very inefficient pedaling so..."

    Maybe an E-bike won't make up for lost power output from of one leg but we don't know since he has no trail access to try it out so he never bought one. He's considered one for pedaling around the city but hasn't felt to need for it in city riding yet.
    -DeoreDX

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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Since this thread is about e-bikes at Bent Creek, I'm hoping these ebikers you've encountered are staying on the gravel roads, since they are not allowed on the trails there.
    I have no desire to ride my ebike in bent creek. Itís too congested and small. If it was legal, Iíd maybe hit it every now and then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeoreDX View Post
    Let me quote myself since it seems like you seemed to skim over what I wrote.

    "... doesn't allow him to move his left foot up and down which makes for very inefficient pedaling so..."

    Maybe an E-bike won't make up for lost power output from of one leg but we don't know since he has no trail access to try it out so he never bought one. He's considered one for pedaling around the city but hasn't felt to need for it in city riding yet.
    Ok, let me spell out my question for you. If he is uncomfortable lifting up his left foot, would riding off-road be smart? Would it be possible for him to put his foot down to support himself if he was off balance or something that regularly occurs "off-road"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Ok, let me spell out my question for you. If he is uncomfortable lifting up his left foot, would riding off-road be smart? Would it be possible for him to put his foot down to support himself if he was off balance or something that regularly occurs "off-road"?


    Maybe.
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    Iíve seen ebikes in Pisgah and in Dupont. Guess what? The sky hasnít fallen. An ebike isnít for me, but it might be for someone else.
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  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomac18 View Post
    Iíve seen ebikes in Pisgah and in Dupont. Guess what? The sky hasnít fallen. An ebike isnít for me, but it might be for someone else.
    Guess what? I've seen trail access threatened from user conflict. An ebike isn't for Pisgah. It's on the trail signs.

  115. #115
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    I disagree. Class1 250w pedelecs should be allowed in Pisgah. Fireroad climbs and downhills, why not?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    I disagree. Class1 250w pedelecs should be allowed in Pisgah. Fireroad climbs and downhills, why not?
    Well, it doesn't matter if you disagree. That has already been decided. Also, there are many reasons why an individual may not want ebikes in Pisgah, which have been discussed in depth in just about every post about ebikes before they got their own thread. What makes you think ebikers wouldn't climb any of the Pisgah singletrack, anyway?

  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    I disagree. Class1 250w pedelecs should be allowed in Pisgah. Fireroad climbs and downhills, why not?
    Because, and stay with me now, it has a motor.

  118. #118
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    It will change in time.
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  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    It will change in time.
    I agree.

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    I disagree about Pisgah. Ebikes have motors, and unless the forest service decides to allow motorized vehicles on trails, ebikes will continue to be banned. I do agree that more and more trail systems will allow ebikes on certain trails, but I doubt those will be in national forests.

  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by motomike View Post
    I agree.
    Yup, in the next 3-5 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COTarHeel View Post
    Because, and stay with me now, it has a motor.
    Bikes have wheels, horses have hooves, and hikers have feet. So what?

    The fact it has a motor really doesn't mean anything. There are legitimate issues with eBikes, primarily perception from other user groups, but simply pointing out it has a motor is kindof a weak argument.

  123. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    Bikes have wheels, horses have hooves, and hikers have feet. So what?

    The fact it has a motor really doesn't mean anything. There are legitimate issues with eBikes, primarily perception from other user groups, but simply pointing out it has a motor is kindof a weak argument.
    Pointing out that ebikes have motors is not an argument. It's just a fact. Having a motor presents all kinds of potential issues that aren't just perception. It's like you pro ebike people just ignore all of the issues that people present and go right for the personal attacks.

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    Yup, in the next 3-5 years.
    Where, at Sugar Mountain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    The fact it has a motor really doesn't mean anything. There are legitimate issues with eBikes, primarily perception from other user groups, but simply pointing out it has a motor is kindof a weak argument.
    Well, it kinda means everything when motor/no motor is kinda a critical definition you use when determining trail access. It's the whole reason that USFS policy on ebikes is what it is.

    I see no way for trail permissions to change and permit some ebikes while disallowing motorcycles and other ebikes outside of allowable spec without making enforcement more complicated and expensive for land managers.

    Private operations and managers of smaller city/state parcels, I can see being able to adjust to that easier than the USFS.

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Well, it kinda means everything when motor/no motor is kinda a critical definition you use when determining trail access. It's the whole reason that USFS policy on ebikes is what it is.

    I see no way for trail permissions to change and permit some ebikes while disallowing motorcycles and other ebikes outside of allowable spec without making enforcement more complicated and expensive for land managers.

    Private operations and managers of smaller city/state parcels, I can see being able to adjust to that easier than the USFS.
    That makes logical sense.

  127. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Pointing out that ebikes have motors is not an argument. It's just a fact. Having a motor presents all kinds of potential issues that aren't just perception. It's like you pro ebike people just ignore all of the issues that people present and go right for the personal attacks.
    I'm sorry you saw it as a personal attack, it wasn't. I have nothing against the user that posted it, yet I see this come up in discussions all the time. Rather, I was responding to the idea that because ebikes have motors, the prohibition on their use in the forest is valid.

    I can understand a lot of the arguments against their use, but simply pointing out it has a motor and that's why it should be banned is not a strong argument when asked why they should be banned in the forest. As you said, it's simply stating a fact, not an argument, yet those against ebikes in the forest continue to use it as a standalone argument.

    I'm also not 'pro-ebike'. I'm not against them either. I think they should lobby for access themselves and it shouldn't be a mountain biking issue. They aren't mountain bikes, they shouldn't be lumped in with mountain bikes, let their users and owners lobby the USFS for access themselves. We have enough of our own problems, we shouldn't have to shoulder the burdens of other user groups.

  128. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    I'm sorry you saw it as a personal attack, it wasn't. I have nothing against the user that posted it, yet I see this come up in discussions all the time. Rather, I was responding to the idea that because ebikes have motors, the prohibition on their use in the forest is valid.

    I can understand a lot of the arguments against their use, but simply pointing out it has a motor and that's why it should be banned is not a strong argument when asked why they should be banned in the forest. As you said, it's simply stating a fact, not an argument, yet those against ebikes in the forest continue to use it as a standalone argument.

    I'm also not 'pro-ebike'. I'm not against them either. I think they should lobby for access themselves and it shouldn't be a mountain biking issue. They aren't mountain bikes, they shouldn't be lumped in with mountain bikes, let their users and owners lobby the USFS for access themselves. We have enough of our own problems, we shouldn't have to shoulder the burdens of other user groups.
    I didn't take your comment as a personal attack, but it is the common response around here. The reasons have been discussed ad nauseum since mtbr began posting motorcycle content, so it is pointless to keep bringing up the same points again in this thread. What it comes down to is that motors are the defining difference between mountain bikes and ebikes. There is very little defining difference between motorcycles and ebikes. There are many reasons why motorcycles are not allowed on mountain bike trails, and those are the reasons why ebikes should not be classified as mountain bikes.

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    Interesting thread. I generally think that if I'm not allowed to ride my KTM on mtb trails then e-bikes should also be prohibited. It's a slippery slope from e-bike to electric KTM

    I was riding Kitsuma last fall with my son and catching a breather at the little overlook near the top of the switchbacks when up the hill come two dudes hauling on e-bikes.. one of them appeared to be physically disabled. I thought to myself, pretty cool this guy is up here who might not otherwise be without some pedal assistance.. I'd be fine with providing limited exceptions to folks with disabilities.

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    If SORBA is going to turn Explorer Loop into a fire road, I donít see why E bikes shouldnít be allowed.

  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamatt View Post
    If SORBA is going to turn Explorer Loop into a fire road, I donít see why E bikes shouldnít be allowed.
    I think every single trail in Bent Creek is technically an unmaintained road in the USFS inventory. At any time, the experimental forest could decide to use it for forestry demonstrations and there is little, if anything, the user community can do about it. Sidehill trail proved this many years ago.

    Furthermore, Explorer Trail in particular has to be accessible to large equipment for the NC Wildlife Commission to get to the wildlife clearings off it for periodic mowing.

    So many factors...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    I think every single trail in Bent Creek is technically an unmaintained road in the USFS inventory. At any time, the experimental forest could decide to use it for forestry demonstrations and there is little, if anything, the user community can do about it. Sidehill trail proved this many years ago.

    Furthermore, Explorer Trail in particular has to be accessible to large equipment for the NC Wildlife Commission to get to the wildlife clearings off it for periodic mowing.

    So many factors...
    Yeah, I get it. But there's a difference between reasonable trail maintenance and some SORBA Silverback living out his Tim Allen fantasy on that little bulldozer.

  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamatt View Post
    Yeah, I get it. But there's a difference between reasonable trail maintenance and some SORBA Silverback living out his Tim Allen fantasy on that little bulldozer.
    Understood and absolutely agree that usually, the best trail work takes a minimum necessary approach, but other factors we as riders don't know about sometimes prevent that.

    Nice silverback reference...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    Understood and absolutely agree that usually, the best trail work takes a minimum necessary approach, but other factors we as riders don't know about sometimes prevent that.

    Nice silverback reference...
    Anyway, ranting and raving in ignorance of facts existent or otherwise is culturally consistent with our time.

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Where, at Sugar Mountain?
    Designated trails including trails in National Forests. 3-5 years is the projected timeframe if you work in the industry. To answer your sarcasm, not sure about Sugar but I just contstructed an Ebike accessible trail at Beech. Contrary to popular belief the world did not end as soon as we allowed Ebikes. The neighboring trail network Emerald Outback is also currently Ebike accessible and has been since their advent. No issues there either.

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    To answer your sarcasm, not sure about Sugar but I just contstructed an Ebike accessible trail at Beech.
    Are you related to that Beech Steve guy who works at Sugar? Asking for a friend.

  137. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamatt View Post
    Are you related to that Beech Steve guy who works at Sugar? Asking for a friend.
    You can tell your friend I work at both resorts.

  138. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    Designated trails including trails in National Forests. 3-5 years is the projected timeframe if you work in the industry. To answer your sarcasm, not sure about Sugar but I just contstructed an Ebike accessible trail at Beech. Contrary to popular belief the world did not end as soon as we allowed Ebikes. The neighboring trail network Emerald Outback is also currently Ebike accessible and has been since their advent. No issues there either.
    Lol, in the industry, huh? The industry doesn't even know where it's going yet, unless you know which new standards they have on tap. Who exactly are your industry connections, and how do they know the politics behind the classification and allowances of ebikes on federal lands?

  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    Designated trails including trails in National Forests. 3-5 years is the projected timeframe if you work in the industry. To answer your sarcasm, not sure about Sugar but I just contstructed an Ebike accessible trail at Beech. Contrary to popular belief the world did not end as soon as we allowed Ebikes. The neighboring trail network Emerald Outback is also currently Ebike accessible and has been since their advent. No issues there either.
    Right on! Iím gonna check them out for sure. Post ride Iíll probably spend money in the town on a hotel, beer and food. Itís a revenue thing...
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  140. #140
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    Would you happen to know which area would offer more technically advanced trails? Iím not looking for Rampage stuff, just good tech singletrack. And whereís the cool pub to hit? Thank you.
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  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    They aren't mountain bikes, they shouldn't be lumped in with mountain bikes
    Yeah, because they have a motor.

  142. #142
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    Maybe they should ban Peter Sagan from riding, he can put out more watts than I can on my 250w pedelec!
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  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Maybe they should ban Peter Sagan from riding, he can put out more watts than I can on my 250w pedelec!
    Is this some sort of weird fitness shaming thing youíre doing here?

    What a weird place weíre in now. One where people are so pathetic they insist on riding faster than their work and talent allow, then denigrate others who have put in the work.


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  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    Designated trails including trails in National Forests. 3-5 years is the projected timeframe if you work in the industry. To answer your sarcasm, not sure about Sugar but I just contstructed an Ebike accessible trail at Beech. Contrary to popular belief the world did not end as soon as we allowed Ebikes. The neighboring trail network Emerald Outback is also currently Ebike accessible and has been since their advent. No issues there either.
    That is what the ďindustryĒ wants, and is shoving down the throats of anyone who will open their mouth. Doesnít mean itís going to happen like that. I find the definitive attitude rather bizarre. Is the the forest service in on these crystal ball manifestos? Or just the ďindustryĒ insiders? Iíve heard from a friend of a friend of a friend, that itís not gonna go down like that.


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    I have no dog in this fight, but I ran into a guy on an ebike at Brown County in Indiana a couple weeks ago. He wasnít going up the hill much faster than me. Other than his down tube being a little wider than mine, you wouldnít know it was an ebike. I really Donít see a problem with folks, especially anyone with a disability that keeps them from being able to ride a regular bike, being able to enjoy the trails. I think there is a big difference between ebikes and motorcycles. Ebike Are not loud and they at least require some effort on the part of the rider.
    Friends don let friends ride road bikes.
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  146. #146
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    Just joking, how pathetic where we are that fellow bikers have completely lost their sense of humor. Kinda weak actually.

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  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Is this some sort of weird fitness shaming thing youíre doing here?

    What a weird place weíre in now. One where people are so pathetic they insist on riding faster than their work and talent allow, then denigrate others who have put in the work.


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    Are you implying that Iím lazy or something? I donít put in the ďworkĒ. Iím sure youíre the baddest dude on the mtn. Not too judgmental are you?
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  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeridesabike View Post
    I have no dog in this fight, but I ran into a guy on an ebike at Brown County in Indiana a couple weeks ago. He wasnít going up the hill much faster than me. Other than his down tube being a little wider than mine, you wouldnít know it was an ebike. I really Donít see a problem with folks, especially anyone with a disability that keeps them from being able to ride a regular bike, being able to enjoy the trails. I think there is a big difference between ebikes and motorcycles. Ebike Are not loud and they at least require some effort on the part of the rider.
    But you do realize that these low powered, pedal-assist ebikes can be relatively easily upgraded for more speed and more power, right? You also realize that there is a wide range of ebikes between what you saw and the full-on electric motorcycles, and that there is no efficient or reliable way of telling most of them apart, correct?

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Are you implying that Iím lazy or something? I donít put in the ďworkĒ. Iím sure youíre the baddest dude on the mtn. Not too judgmental are you?
    Are you honestly saying that you have put as much work into cycling as Peter Sagan? You know what he was saying. Stop with the victim thing you ebikers think you have going.

  150. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    Designated trails including trails in National Forests. 3-5 years is the projected timeframe if you work in the industry. To answer your sarcasm, not sure about Sugar but I just contstructed an Ebike accessible trail at Beech. Contrary to popular belief the world did not end as soon as we allowed Ebikes. The neighboring trail network Emerald Outback is also currently Ebike accessible and has been since their advent. No issues there either.
    Brad, excuse my unfiltered use of opinion, but if the so-called industry is arguing for equal access e-bike to pedal bike, then said industry needs to gets its head out of its collective ass. If by "designated trails," you mean a small percentage- less than 10- of trails being considered for opening because they had the potential for 1) unquestioned sustainability with increased user volumes, 2) Easy evac/ low potential for getting loss when people with less physical and "woods" skills go further away from infrastructure, and 3) could be easily monitored for appropriate use , then that seems like it would be a "reasonable accommodation" as rightly required by the Americans with Disabilities Act and I'd be ok. Unfiltered access without conditions like I describe- that's unreasonable and what people like me think would be the epitome of short-sighted sales gains causing irreparable harm to public lands and mountain biking overall.

  151. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    But you do realize that these low powered, pedal-assist ebikes can be relatively easily upgraded for more speed and more power, right? You also realize that there is a wide range of ebikes between what you saw and the full-on electric motorcycles, and that there is no efficient or reliable way of telling most of them apart, correct?
    You do realize that in the REAL world there has been no issues as Sugar Brad has witnessed at two parks and countless people have witnessed at Bentonville. You can argue til your blue in the face, then eventually change will happen, revenue will flow and you will be riding besides a mtbr on an emtb.
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  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Are you honestly saying that you have put as much work into cycling as Peter Sagan? You know what he was saying. Stop with the victim thing you ebikers think you have going.
    See you on the trails..
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  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    Brad, excuse my unfiltered use of opinion, but if the so-called industry is arguing for equal access e-bike to pedal bike, then said industry needs to gets its head out of its collective ass. If by "designated trails," you mean a small percentage- less than 10- of trails being considered for opening because they had the potential for 1) unquestioned sustainability with increased user volumes, 2) Easy evac/ low potential for getting loss when people with less physical and "woods" skills go further away from infrastructure, and 3) could be easily monitored for appropriate use , then that seems like it would be a "reasonable accommodation" as rightly required by the Americans with Disabilities Act and I'd be ok. Unfiltered access without conditions like I describe- that's unreasonable and what people like me think would be the epitome of short-sighted sales gains causing irreparable harm to public lands and mountain biking overall.
    Works in many, many areas. Why is this area so different?
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  154. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Works in many, many areas. Why is this area so different?
    Many? Some downhill oriented bike parks, and purpose built trails on private land in Arkansas? Is that what you are referring to as ďmany, manyĒ? Do you really think ďPisgahĒ is like those places?


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  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    You do realize that in the REAL world there has been no issues as Sugar Brad has witnessed at two parks and countless people have witnessed at Bentonville. You can argue til your blue in the face, then eventually change will happen, revenue will flow and you will be riding besides a mtbr on an emtb.
    So 1 person from 2 little used bike parks and a fairly new mountain biking mecca designed for mountain biking with respectable sight lines and I believe 1-way trails represent the "real world"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    See you on the trails..
    I tell you what. I'll be happy to meet you sometime. You bring your ebike to Dupont, because that's the only place here that they are legal that I'm willing to drive to, and you can show me just how going faster uphill with downhill riders coming down doesn't cause any problems. You can also prove to me that your bike cannot be modified to be faster and more powerful, and that it is easy to distinguise the low-power models from the motorcycles. PM me.

  156. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Many? Some downhill oriented bike parks, and purpose built trails on private land in Arkansas? Is that what you are referring to as ďmany, manyĒ? Do you really think ďPisgahĒ is like those places?
    I'd consider most of Europe, where e-bikes and mountain bikes are considerably less restricted, to be 'many' and yes, there are Pisgah-esque areas there, as well, with similar terrain and trail surface. Just because we have slow adoption in the United States (and a need to overregulate everything) doesn't mean the rest of the world is the same way.

    AFAIK the 'damage' caused by ebike use, compared to mountain bikes, is still theoretical, but it's something that could pretty readily be studied in countries where widespread adoption of them was pretty quick and uncontroversial. The user conflict angle could potentially be, as well, however I suspect that'd be more challenging since views on cycling in general across the pond are more positive and it's more accepted, both on and off trails, so reporting is likely to be scattered (not that it's consistent or even recorded here, either).

  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Lol, in the industry, huh? The industry doesn't even know where it's going yet, unless you know which new standards they have on tap. Who exactly are your industry connections, and how do they know the politics behind the classification and allowances of ebikes on federal lands?
    Product managers, engineers, marketing directors, and several CEOs of large players in the industry. You are incorrect. The industry is three years ahead. It takes 3 years to to design, test, refine peoduction and market a model year of a bike. The large companies are working on model years 2-3 years out right now as you guys argue and be dicks to each other.

  158. #158
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    The sky is falling...the sky is falling...
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  159. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    That is what the ďindustryĒ wants, and is shoving down the throats of anyone who will open their mouth. Doesnít mean itís going to happen like that. I find the definitive attitude rather bizarre. Is the the forest service in on these crystal ball manifestos? Or just the ďindustryĒ insiders? Iíve heard from a friend of a friend of a friend, that itís not gonna go down like that.


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    You know you don't have to purchase one...right? You guys act like it's going to be the apocalypse if the government allows them on a few trails. Ride more, worry less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    You know you don't have to purchase one...right? You guys act like it's going to be the apocalypse if the government allows them on a few trails. Ride more, worry less.
    Well said...

    These attitudes are WAY too close to religious fervor for my liking...
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  161. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Works in many, many areas. Why is this area so different?
    Because people are proud and scared. Those aren't bad things by any means. I love the forest and want it protected as well. That being said, the data that companies are relying on to increase legal areas to ride Ebikes debunk the fear based myths people are clinging on to.

  162. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by windsurfdog View Post
    The sky is falling...the sky is falling...
    Everyone panic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    Brad, excuse my unfiltered use of opinion, but if the so-called industry is arguing for equal access e-bike to pedal bike, then said industry needs to gets its head out of its collective ass. If by "designated trails," you mean a small percentage- less than 10- of trails being considered for opening because they had the potential for 1) unquestioned sustainability with increased user volumes, 2) Easy evac/ low potential for getting loss when people with less physical and "woods" skills go further away from infrastructure, and 3) could be easily monitored for appropriate use , then that seems like it would be a "reasonable accommodation" as rightly required by the Americans with Disabilities Act and I'd be ok. Unfiltered access without conditions like I describe- that's unreasonable and what people like me think would be the epitome of short-sighted sales gains causing irreparable harm to public lands and mountain biking overall.
    We don't expect them to be as widespread as Europe or New Zealand. We do however expect designations to change as well as a small percentage of trails becoming "Ebike legal". The four horseman of the apocalypse aren't going to show up on pedal assist bikes and force everyone to buy one like so many people on here fear...

  164. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by windsurfdog View Post
    These attitudes are WAY too close to religious fervor for my liking...
    I'd much rather discuss religion, if that's what you want.

  165. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    We don't expect them to be as widespread as Europe or New Zealand. We do however expect designations to change as well as a small percentage of trails becoming "Ebike legal". The four horseman of the apocalypse aren't going to show up on pedal assist bikes and force everyone to buy one like so many people on here fear...
    Why is this so difficult for you and apparently the "industry" to understand? Nobody is worried that we will be forced to buy ebikes. Keep dodging the real issues. You work at a resort. You are not the industry.

  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    The four horseman of the apocalypse aren't going to show up on pedal assist bikes and force everyone to buy one like so many people on here fear...
    If I ask one of them nicely, will they give me one? That'd be rad. I really want to try and strap a Tesla battery to my back and wire it up to an ebike, allowing it to morph into it's final form: Some sort of mecha Nikola Tesla that rips trails out of the ground and pedals with the force of a hurricane

  167. #167
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    We should ban fancy suspension, 29ers, WT tires and helmets with ear protections.

  168. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    I'd consider most of Europe, where e-bikes and mountain bikes are considerably less restricted, to be 'many' and yes, there are Pisgah-esque areas there, as well, with similar terrain and trail surface. Just because we have slow adoption in the United States (and a need to overregulate everything) doesn't mean the rest of the world is the same way.

    AFAIK the 'damage' caused by ebike use, compared to mountain bikes, is still theoretical, but it's something that could pretty readily be studied in countries where widespread adoption of them was pretty quick and uncontroversial. The user conflict angle could potentially be, as well, however I suspect that'd be more challenging since views on cycling in general across the pond are more positive and it's more accepted, both on and off trails, so reporting is likely to be scattered (not that it's consistent or even recorded here, either).
    Europe is different in many, many ways.


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  169. #169
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    Ebikes are gaining acceptance in some areas around the world and losing in a few. In time things will shake out. Like I said I have no desire to ride my ebike in bent Creek. Also, acknowledge that most ebikers that drop huge bucks on these ebikes are mtbrs! Holy shit imagine that. Iím sure yíall only prefer one music genre? And I do see the other side, but man things are getting blown way out of proportion. Imo, itís not the locals thatís the crowding, itís the vacationers.
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  170. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeridesabike View Post
    I have no dog in this fight, but I ran into a guy on an ebike at Brown County in Indiana a couple weeks ago. He wasnít going up the hill much faster than me. Other than his down tube being a little wider than mine, you wouldnít know it was an ebike. I really Donít see a problem with folks, especially anyone with a disability that keeps them from being able to ride a regular bike, being able to enjoy the trails. I think there is a big difference between ebikes and motorcycles. Ebike Are not loud and they at least require some effort on the part of the rider.
    IIRC, he was not riding said bicycle on legally permissible trails. I don't believe that any public land at the state level in Indiana is legal for them at this point. AFAIK, only some private and some city/county land is legal, as is true for most places right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    Brad, excuse my unfiltered use of opinion, but if the so-called industry is arguing for equal access e-bike to pedal bike, then said industry needs to gets its head out of its collective ass. If by "designated trails," you mean a small percentage- less than 10- of trails being considered for opening because they had the potential for 1) unquestioned sustainability with increased user volumes, 2) Easy evac/ low potential for getting loss when people with less physical and "woods" skills go further away from infrastructure, and 3) could be easily monitored for appropriate use , then that seems like it would be a "reasonable accommodation" as rightly required by the Americans with Disabilities Act and I'd be ok. Unfiltered access without conditions like I describe- that's unreasonable and what people like me think would be the epitome of short-sighted sales gains causing irreparable harm to public lands and mountain biking overall.
    Part of the problem with ebikes is that some folks with disabilities buy/ride them and don't behave any differently on the trails than anyone else on a bicycle. Some people without disabilities ride this way, too. But some people have zero desire to ride them this way. First off is the modder crowd, and that's an obvious problem. The others are the people who are plenty fit and use the extra potential speed on the climbs to be selfish jerks. I absolutely have encountered this sort on the trails.

    It's simply not possible to separate these people out beforehand with regulations. You can try to write rules to do this, but the only way to actually handle it is through enforcement. Either through the land manager, or through social pressure. Anything the land manager does is going to cost money that land manager money. ebikers themselves need to be involved in this process, and I don't see that happening. The industry sure isn't going to make any attempt to distinguish/promote responsible riding. If there's any evidence about what the industry will do, they're going to promote riding that might look cool in videos on empty and/or private trails, but that is absolutely irresponsible on busy public trails. Because that's exactly what they already do.

    ebikes are not considered accessibility devices under the ADA, so ADA rules can't be applied.

  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by park baker View Post
    We should ban fancy suspension, 29ers, WT tires and helmets with ear protections.
    And Gore-Tex, Dyneema, and anything carbon fiber.

    ps: What's a WT tire?

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  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    The four horseman of the apocalypse aren't going to show up on pedal assist bikes and force everyone to buy one like so many people on here fear...
    Literally nobody fears that. What a BS rebuttal.

  174. #174
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    Just ride what puts a smile on your face and if youíre legal, then there really is zero issues. If thereís judging beyond that then obviously a lame cyclist.
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  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    We don't expect them to be as widespread as Europe or New Zealand. We do however expect designations to change as well as a small percentage of trails becoming "Ebike legal". The four horseman of the apocalypse aren't going to show up on pedal assist bikes and force everyone to buy one like so many people on here fear...
    Lol. ďWeĒ.


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  176. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    Product managers, engineers, marketing directors, and several CEOs of large players in the industry. You are incorrect. The industry is three years ahead. It takes 3 years to to design, test, refine peoduction and market a model year of a bike. The large companies are working on model years 2-3 years out right now as you guys argue and be dicks to each other.
    Yeah, the market always plays out exactly how the engineers, directors and CEOs plan. Their crystal balls must be defective.

  177. #177
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    I have no problem with e-bikes on forest roads. Some people also have bad joint and want to enjoy the sport.

    However, I enjoy a good workout, so...

  178. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    See you on the trails..
    I'm still waiting for your PM. I guess you really don't believe what you are typing here, since you aren't willing to back it up. Come on, convince me that e-bikes are mountain bikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by park baker View Post
    We should ban fancy suspension, 29ers, WT tires and helmets with ear protections.
    Why, do those have motors, too?

  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    I'm still waiting for your PM. I guess you really don't believe what you are typing here, since you aren't willing to back it up. Come on, convince me that e-bikes are mountain bikes.



    Why, do those have motors, too?
    I have no desire to convince you or ride with you. Iíd rather watch paint dry.
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  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    I have no desire to convince you or ride with you. Iíd rather watch paint dry.
    I didn't think so. You know that everything said about ebikes being no faster than mountain bikes or not being a threat to mountain bike trail access is crap. I offer you an opportunity to prove that you and other ebikers aren't full of shit, and you decline. I don't ever want to hear another ebiker say that us anti-ebike people have no experience with ebikes.

  181. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    I didn't think so. You know that everything said about ebikes being no faster than mountain bikes or not being a threat to mountain bike trail access is crap. I offer you an opportunity to prove that you and other ebikers aren't full of shit, and you decline. I don't ever want to hear another ebiker say that us anti-ebike people have no experience with ebikes.
    Yes officer

  182. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by motomike View Post
    Yes officer
    I have been ignoring this thread... What did I miss?

  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    I have been ignoring this thread... What did I miss?
    A coherent, rational discussion around ebike usage on public lands. It's such a great discussion, you'd find the likes of it in the halls of Congress or in <insert party here> debates.

  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    I didn't think so. You know that everything said about ebikes being no faster than mountain bikes or not being a threat to mountain bike trail access is crap. I offer you an opportunity to prove that you and other ebikers aren't full of shit, and you decline. I don't ever want to hear another ebiker say that us anti-ebike people have no experience with ebikes.
    Like another poster said, Ride more and whine less.
    Why is my power bill so high?

  185. #185
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    Here is what I learned from this thread:

    1) There are some people so butthurt over ebikes that they think they should be banned from NFS roads open to motorcycles and 4x4's.
    2) There are huge numbers of people conjuring up the worst case scenario and then inflating that by orders of magnitude. A Class 1 ebike is not a KTM Freeride. Yes, you can tell them apart. Opening a trail to Class 1 ebikes does not mean people will be "secretly" roosting trails on high powered dirt bikes.
    3) People conjure up irrational fears over trail conflict. Jefferson County, CO have opened all of their trails that are open to MTBs to Class 1 ebikes. Jeffco has about 7 MILLION visitors per year, 45% more visitors than all of the Pisgah Forest combined, in a much smaller area. MTBs, hikers, equestrians, and yes, class 1 ebikes coexist. There was not a noticeable increase in user conflict when ebikes were allowed 18 months ago. They had a trial period, and the results were good enough that ebikes were allowed permanently.

  186. #186
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    45% more visitors in a smaller area, trial study done and accepted. This is what we will see in the future perhaps.
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  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Here is what I learned from this thread:

    1) There are some people so butthurt over ebikes that they think they should be banned from NFS roads open to motorcycles and 4x4's.
    2) There are huge numbers of people conjuring up the worst case scenario and then inflating that by orders of magnitude. A Class 1 ebike is not a KTM Freeride. Yes, you can tell them apart. Opening a trail to Class 1 ebikes does not mean people will be "secretly" roosting trails on high powered dirt bikes.
    3) People conjure up irrational fears over trail conflict. Jefferson County, CO have opened all of their trails that are open to MTBs to Class 1 ebikes. Jeffco has about 7 MILLION visitors per year, 45% more visitors than all of the Pisgah Forest combined, in a much smaller area. MTBs, hikers, equestrians, and yes, class 1 ebikes coexist. There was not a noticeable increase in user conflict when ebikes were allowed 18 months ago. They had a trial period, and the results were good enough that ebikes were allowed permanently.
    1). Who said that?

    2). I think you're misinformed about the potential of class 1 ebikes to be modified and peoples' willingness to exploit the rules.

    3). Pisgah is not Jeffco. Doesn't matter if it works there or not. The trails have much better sight lines there, for one thing. Ebikes are banned in Pisgah and Bent Creek. That's all this thread is saying.

  188. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Like another poster said, Ride more and whine less.
    Do you always call it whining when somebody is in disagreement with you? Actually, vomiting opinions and ignoring any criticism while refusing to offer any sort of actual action towards your desires kinda seams a bit like whining, does it not? You have zero credibility here.

  189. #189
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    Do you think I care about credibility on the web? Idk Iíve been asked to Mod a few times. You are a very closed minded individual, sad really. Iíll bow out of this thread and let you witness the future of ebike acceptance in WNC in time. When it happens, Iíll come back to this thread and laugh.
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  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    1). Who said that?

    2). I think you're misinformed about the potential of class 1 ebikes to be modified and peoples' willingness to exploit the rules.

    3). Pisgah is not Jeffco. Doesn't matter if it works there or not. The trails have much better sight lines there, for one thing. Ebikes are banned in Pisgah and Bent Creek. That's all this thread is saying.
    1) Read the very first three posts in this thread.
    2) I've been riding where ebikes are legal in Jeffco, in Colorado State Parks, and in Moab for over 30 years. I have *never* seen a modified ebike, *ever*, and I am an eBike enthusiast and would know one if I saw it.
    3) Many of the trails open to ebikes have zero sight lines. I just rode my eBike at Golden Gate tonight, and many sections of Snowshoe Hare, Burro, and Mountain Lion have no sight lines at all. The real issue is people bombing *down* trails with no sight lines, not someone going 10 MPH instead of 5 MPH uphill.

  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    1) Read the very first three posts in this thread.
    2) I've been riding where ebikes are legal in Jeffco, in Colorado State Parks, and in Moab for over 30 years. I have *never* seen a modified ebike, *ever*, and I am an eBike enthusiast and would know one if I saw it.
    3) Many of the trails open to ebikes have zero sight lines. I just rode my eBike at Golden Gate tonight, and many sections of Snowshoe Hare, Burro, and Mountain Lion have no sight lines at all. The real issue is people bombing *down* trails with no sight lines, not someone going 10 MPH instead of 5 MPH uphill.
    Yeah, you're still wrong.

    1) The first post was just asking if they were legal in Bent Creek. I didn't see any judgement or opinion in that one. The second one stated they are illegal in Bent Creek, albeit with clear anti-ebike tone that in no way was directed towards motorcycle trails. The third one was curious if they float, which again, doesn't say anything about banning them from motorcycle trails. You're being a bit sensitive.

    2) You wouldn't know a modified ebike just by looking at it. I fyou were so familiar with them, then you would know that. Unless, of course, if you'e never seen one, then how would you know?

    3) The trails I saw from Jeffco and Moab mostly have very clear lines of sight for their entire lengths. I'm not familiar with all of those trails, but I'd bet they have much better sight lines than most Pisgah trails. The issue of people bombing down trails is compounded by people "bombing" up them. I would much rather ban ebikes on those trails than impose a speed limit. Why are some of you so bent on getting ebike access everywhere? There are trails where it just doesn't make sense. Many of them in Pisgah.

  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    1) Read the very first three posts in this thread.
    2) I've been riding where ebikes are legal in Jeffco, in Colorado State Parks, and in Moab for over 30 years. I have *never* seen a modified ebike, *ever*, and I am an eBike enthusiast and would know one if I saw it.
    3) Many of the trails open to ebikes have zero sight lines. I just rode my eBike at Golden Gate tonight, and many sections of Snowshoe Hare, Burro, and Mountain Lion have no sight lines at all. The real issue is people bombing *down* trails with no sight lines, not someone going 10 MPH instead of 5 MPH uphill.
    1) I did, and they don't say National Forest roads open to motorcycles and 4x4's should be closed to eBikes. The 3rd isn't even referring to National Forests.
    2) Ooooh. I didn't realize you're an enthusiast! That certainly means that you know every detail of every eBike you pass by.
    3) Comparing the ability to do pilot programs and quickly change the rules to allow eBikes on a County's trails vs. Federal trails isn't exactly apples to apples.

    You and others seem quite upset that the rest of us aren't marching on the ranger station demanding eBike access to Pisgah trails. And even more upset that people are, correctly, pointing out that 1) eBikes are fundamentally different than 100% human-powered bikes, and 2) the fact that eBikes are currently illegal on Pisgah Trails.

    Ride where you can. Do your thing and advocate for your cause to the powers that be. But don't expect the rest of us to automatically join you and then get pissy when we don't want to due to legitimate reasons.

  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    2) I've been riding where ebikes are legal in Jeffco, in Colorado State Parks, and in Moab for over 30 years. I have *never* seen a modified ebike, *ever*, and I am an eBike enthusiast and would know one if I saw it.
    How would you know? Your statements of absolutes are part of the reason why a lot of folks think you and yours are full of shit. Iíve seen 2 ebikes in Bent Creek, and they were both modified. I know this, because the dudes on them told me that they did so, and had a top speed of 38 mph. I couldnít tell they were modified, and Iím a carpenter, but long ago, I worked for an electrician. So, yeah, Iím pretty qualified.



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  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    How would you know? Your statements of absolutes are part of the reason why a lot of folks think you and yours are full of shit. Iíve seen 2 ebikes in Bent Creek, and they were both modified. I know this, because the dudes on them told me that they did so, and had a top speed of 38 mph. I couldnít tell they were modified, and Iím a carpenter, but long ago, I worked for an electrician. So, yeah, Iím pretty qualified.



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    How would I know? When they start pedaling down the flat trail at over 20MPH which is *very* difficult to do on a Class 1 ebike.

    BTW, even if an ebike has been modified and has a "top speed of 38 MPH", if it is Class 1, it doesn't climb any faster than one that hasn't been modified. The limiting factor while climbing on a Class 1 ebike is the torque, not the speed limiter. On a downhill, the limiting factor is the suspension and the rider, just like on a regular MTB. The only "advantage" would be on completely flat ground where the speed limiter would usually kick in at 19-20 MPH.

  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    How would I know? When they start pedaling down the flat trail at over 20MPH which is *very* difficult to do on a Class 1 ebike.

    BTW, even if an ebike has been modified and has a "top speed of 38 MPH", if it is Class 1, it doesn't climb any faster than one that hasn't been modified. The limiting factor while climbing on a Class 1 ebike is the torque, not the speed limiter. On a downhill, the limiting factor is the suspension and the rider, just like on a regular MTB. The only "advantage" would be on completely flat ground where the speed limiter would usually kick in at 19-20 MPH.
    Umm... Yeah, 20 mph isn't hard to do with any bike on flat ground. And are you saying that more powerful ebikes don't allow riders to go uphill faster? You do realize that it is possible to modify beyond torque, right? Apparently, you know just enough to be dangerous, not useful.

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