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    e bikes?

    While riding DuPont this am I passed a couple and noticed that they were on e bikes. Nice older folks and they were just on Buck Forest Road, they said that they ride the gravel on Avery Creek Road and around the Hatchery, never the trails. I was wondering if there are any rules on their use in Dupont or Pisgah and where the heck this is headed. Every year I get closer and closer to "old".

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    Quote Originally Posted by pisgahrider View Post
    While riding DuPont this am I passed a couple and noticed that they were on e bikes. Nice older folks and they were just on Buck Forest Road, they said that they ride the gravel on Avery Creek Road and around the Hatchery, never the trails. I was wondering if there are any rules on their use in Dupont or Pisgah and where the heck this is headed. Every year I get closer and closer to "old".
    Not allowed in pisgah, as they have a motor. I think DuPont has yet to develop an official policy towards them.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    not allowed on trails or closed gravel roads in pisgah, as they have a motor. I think dupont has yet to develop an official policy towards them.
    ftfy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithified View Post
    ftfy
    Righto. In other words, ebikes are managed just like any other motorized vehicle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Righto. In other words, ebikes are managed just like any other motorized vehicle.
    I need to read more about this.

    Did anyone read the Dave Turner piece? There seems to be some fear of these things taking out the high end mtb market some time down the road.

    https://www.bikebiz.com/community/em...terminate-mtbs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithified View Post
    I need to read more about this.

    Did anyone read the Dave Turner piece? There seems to be some fear of these things taking out the high end mtb market some time down the road.

    https://www.bikebiz.com/community/em...terminate-mtbs

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    To hear some folks talk, youíd definitely get the notion that there is an e-pocalypse coming, and fast. Bicycles have been around for a long, long time. Adding gas powered motors to them didnít kill them off, and I donít think the electric version will either. I, like many, pedal for a reason. I donít think thatís going away. But they are out there, and should be watched with a careful eye.


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    All disciplines of biking are alive and well in Europe despite the advent of ebikes. Fear and misunderstanding seem to be synonymous with ebikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    All disciplines of biking are alive and well in Europe despite the advent of ebikes. Fear and misunderstanding seem to be synonymous with ebikes.
    The US is much different than the EU. Personally, I think some of the fears are justified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    The US is much different than the EU. Personally, I think some of the fears are justified.
    Meh, not really when you get down to it. I work in the bike industry so have an understanding of the implications from risk management to advocacy. I also have a pretty firm grasp on the European demographic vs US demographic. Arguing about ebikes on the internet is pretty low on my to do list but I respect your opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    Meh, not really when you get down to it. I work in the bike industry so have an understanding of the implications from risk management to advocacy. I also have a pretty firm grasp on the European demographic vs US demographic. Arguing about ebikes on the internet is pretty low on my to do list but I respect your opinion.
    And I yours, but I donít think that working in the bike industry gives you any better understanding than anybody else. There are many in the industry that disagree with you. It has nothing to do with demographics. Everything is different. I didnít realize this was an argument. Just a discussion on a discussion board.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    And I yours, but I donít think that working in the bike industry gives you any better understanding than anybody else. There are many in the industry that disagree with you. It has nothing to do with demographics. Everything is different. I didnít realize this was an argument. Just a discussion on a discussion board.
    Discussion, argument, whatever you want to call it. Being armed with knowledge and information usually gives someone a better understanding rather than having a rigid preconceived opinion. I'm not saying that's you, just saying the stigma and hatred surrounding ebikes based on fear rather than facts is pretty ridiculous. Let's see some videos of people at Dupont carving giant ruts from their evil ebikes. Let's see some soil studies from from trails all over where they are allowed. Anyway...going to ride bikes so happy trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    Discussion, argument, whatever you want to call it. Being armed with knowledge and information usually gives someone a better understanding rather than having a rigid preconceived opinion. I'm not saying that's you, just saying the stigma and hatred surrounding ebikes based on fear rather than facts is pretty ridiculous. Let's see some videos of people at Dupont carving giant ruts from their evil ebikes. Let's see some soil studies from from trails all over where they are allowed. Anyway...going to ride bikes so happy trails.
    Ok then, we can argue. Why donít you share some of your knowledge so we can better understand how a motorized vehicle sharing mountain bike trails is a good thing. I realize that the industry your in is all about making money via sales, and ebikes are the new thing, and that translates into sales. So, by all means explain to me how my concerns are not legitimate. There are few studies yet, because theyíre largely banned on public lands. To think that the primary concern is environmental degradation is short sighted at best, ignorant at worst. Please explain how working in a bike shop and a park makes you an authority on ebikes, besides the fact that you sell them. What exactly is your stance on ebikes and what is the ebike advocacy you speak of? Why would I want to see them in pisgah? Just share some knowledge, man. Gonna go pedal now.

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    Seems like people who hate on e-bikes have never even ridden one before. Itís so far from a real motorized vehicle, like a dirt bike, its laughable that that is even brought up. A couple weeks ago I used a fuel-injected, fire breathing motocross bike at Rocky Knob to haul up some concrete to the top. You couldnít even tell it happened. To think that a pedal-assist bike is going to be out there throwing roost around and ruining trails is pretty funny. I personally donít want an e-bike because I donít need one, but who cares if someone else does! Canít we all just argue about wheel sizes and bottom brackets like the good ole days?

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    Nobody likes change. Every emtber Iíve personally met, has been a seasoned cyclist. They know trail etiquette etc. Thereís always going to be that jack*** out there in whatever. But in the real world that is a minority. IMBA supports Class1 pedelecs. Ride one, talk to people riding them, and then judge them. Almost every rider I see going down Is going flat out on their mtb, myself included. Whatís the difference? No noise, no smoke.
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    *rolleyes*

    for awhile, fatbikes were the fastest growing segment in bicycles. Then gravel bikes. Now it's ebikes. Whatever. They'll all plateau just like fatbikes did and sustain as a niche segment.

    As for managing them, they're not exactly the same as pedal-only bicycles, and they're not exactly the same as motos. They should not be managed exactly the same as either. Let's not pretend that they don't have special considerations unique to the segment. The real concern has little to do with environmental impacts. Though some ebikes (modded ones and kits) absolutely are an issue from that standpoint. No, the real concern is a social one.

    Meh, who cares about them from a bike park standpoint? Everybody takes a lift/shuttle up and rides down. Maybe some ebikers will want to go up the access roads on their own. Whatever.

    The issue is related to more complicated trail systems with many different nonmotorized uses and multiple directions of travel. Some managers are approaching the issue from a different standpoint than others. It totally makes sense that smaller entities like local and state land managers would initially be more permissive, since they're more nimble and can more easily address issues after they arise, if they do. It makes complete sense why larger federal entities like the USFS would start with a more cautious approach and apply motorized vehicle management to ebikes to start with. They're not as nimble and it's easier for them to become more permissive over time than to become more restrictive over time.

    ebikers and the industry need to get it through their heads that ebikes need their own advocates. People who ride nonmotorized bicycles will not advocate for them "just because". ebikers have to be their own advocates. To change minds, they're going to have to present some real solutions to some legitimate concerns that other people have about them. Let me reiterate that. Many people have LEGITIMATE concerns. Yeah, okay, some people have a lot of misconceptions and fears that go beyond legitimate concerns. ebikers have to deal with those things, too. Mountain bike advocates had to deal with all of those same things. It's going to happen. It's how people are. ebikers can't be dismissive of all of it and tell everyone to go to hell the way they do on mtbr all the damn time. ebikers have to work really hard to be honest with themselves about their equipment and about how they differ from other user groups. Only then can they honestly and effectively advocate for themselves and focus on the similarities.

    There are two basic routes they can follow to accomplish this. One of them is going to be to go solo. Start their own advocacy orgs. Learn from other advocacy groups about what works and then invest the time, energy, and money into negotiating access and gaining acceptance. With the small number of e-mtbikers out there (largely due to a high cost of entry), you're not likely to make much headway without some level of cooperation with other groups, so you're going to have to find and emphasize common ground with nonmotorized mtbikers, hikers, and horse riders. e-mtbikers will absolutely have to reckon with concerns over bad behavior, just like nonmotorized mtbikers have always had to do. Nonmotorized mtbers's are STILL working on all of these things after decades of work.

    The other route is going to be to change mtb advocacy orgs from within. Show up to meetings, volunteer events, and social events. Run for office. You're still going to have to do all those other things. Some of them are likely going to be much harder, especially winning acceptance from members of the group itself. I'll put money down that many orgs handled this way will most likely split over the issue. MTB orgs have died or split over smaller issues.

    For now, the regs are what they are. Some areas are changing regs sooner than others. That's no surprise, either. But I see no solid efforts from ebikers themselves to do much of anything at an organized level to improve access and acceptance. What I see are a bunch of disjointed individual efforts, and that sort of thing will never be enough.

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    As I've been saying for years, the main reason mountain bikes are blamed for increased user conflict, and trail damage, is the ease of access they give us to more miles of trail. I bet 500 unique cyclists, at least, go through 5 points at Bent Creek this weekend. Before mountain bikes, I wonder if there were 50- or maybe even 5- persons who saw 5 points in a weekend. It's the volume of use, not the manner of use.

    E bikes have the potential- not the guarantee- to give even more people easy access to trails. While I get that has its benefits- and sharing is usually a good idea- it's also possible to love something to death. Eventually, there have to be some controls of how, when, where, and why we access what are supposed to be woods- remote places of natural beauty. They're not amusement parks.

    I guess my point is that it's not the speed or different riding style or whatever that worries me, its further increasing ease of access which increases user volume which, again, has the potential to just plain wear the wild places out.

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    Definitely valid points. Iím a mtbr and Iíll advocate for 250w pedelecs any day. NOT on every trail or trail system, but certainly some trails. Iíd rather take my Mtb on many places. What Iím seeing is mainly mtbrs riding both. You still need a bike skill set to ride emtbs on demanding singletrack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Definitely valid points. Iím a mtbr and Iíll advocate for 250w pedelecs any day. NOT on every trail or trail system, but certainly some trails. Iíd rather take my Mtb on many places. What Iím seeing is mainly mtbrs riding both. You still need a bike skill set to ride emtbs on demanding singletrack.
    It doesn't matter that you ride nonmotorized mtbs AND emtbs. What matters with regard to advocacy efforts is the fact that people like me, who ride ONLY nonmotorized mtbs (and have no desire to own an emtb) should not be expected to take the initiative and advocate for emtbs on your behalf. I have my own set of concerns regarding access. I might agree with emtb advocates (if there were people doing real emtb advocacy) from time to time on issues, but I might also disagree. The same way I sometimes agree with hiking or horse advocates, and I sometimes disagree. I don't have to have an unfriendly relationship with them. I just recognize that the things we want sometimes coincide and sometimes they conflict.

    I would never seriously suggest that because we're all nonmotorized that we should all be the same organization and all advocate for each other within that organization. We might partner up where it makes sense, and stay separate where it makes sense.

    I really believe this is the best way forward for ebikers. Their aims will probably overlap more with nonmotorized mtbikers, but I do feel like ebikers would be more effective advocating on their own and backing off on the confrontational attitudes. They need to be conciliatory with existing mtb orgs to find common ground and separate themselves from the 10,000W kits and the modders and the kinds of things that other trail users are really concerned about.

    I suspect also that some land managers are (rightfully) concerned about things like exploding batteries, which have gained some level of exposure. There's also (rightfully) concern that ebikes enable less fit riders to get deeper into trouble. And if/when the electric system fails, how is that less fit rider going to get themselves out of trouble deeper into the boonies with a heavier machine? Is that going to put more strain on emergency services?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Ok then, we can argue. Why donít you share some of your knowledge so we can better understand how a motorized vehicle sharing mountain bike trails is a good thing. I realize that the industry your in is all about making money via sales, and ebikes are the new thing, and that translates into sales. So, by all means explain to me how my concerns are not legitimate. There are few studies yet, because theyíre largely banned on public lands. To think that the primary concern is environmental degradation is short sighted at best, ignorant at worst. Please explain how working in a bike shop and a park makes you an authority on ebikes, besides the fact that you sell them. What exactly is your stance on ebikes and what is the ebike advocacy you speak of? Why would I want to see them in pisgah? Just share some knowledge, man. Gonna go pedal now.
    First off, slow your roll chief. I made zero assumptions with you and expect the same in return. If you want to have a respectful conversation, cool. If not you can stop reading now and go somewhere else.

    If you decided to be respectful and are reading this, cool! You have made a lot of assumptions with the previous post so let's get on the same page. My official stance since you "asked" is that ebikes need their own classification. Class 1 pedal assist, let's go with that for now. They obviously aren't a mountain bike. And just because they have a motor they shouldn't be classified with ATVs or dirt bikes. They need their own classification and should be allowed in designated areas. I never said "I want ebikes to share mtn bike trails". I never said "your concerns are not legitimate". I never claimed to be any kind of "authority on ebikes". Accusing me of being "short sided" or "ignorant at best" is pretty unfair since you are basing that conclusion on your assumptions which are completely unfair and quite frankly disrespectful. I also don't sell ebikes so not sure where you got that from.
    My official title is Risk Manager and Patrol Director at Beech Mountain Resort. I travel as a mechanic for a fast junior DH and Enduro racer. I am a former suspension tech at Motion Makers and Cane Creek. I still test and rep product for the awesome people at Cane Creek. I have had in depth conversations regarding ebikes with engineers, marketing directors, product managers, sales reps, risk managers and patrol directors, attorneys, insurance companies, land managers, trail builders, parks and rec directors to name a few. Sales were discussed, but most of the conversations were based on legitimate concerns regarding every aspect that you could possibly think of. You would be surprised how connected and in touch a big bike company like Specialized is for example. It's a common misconception that the big companies only care about selling product. The only true statement in your rant is the fact that ebikes are new. As a result, data is limited. A good friend of mine in the industry has some interesting data including a soil study that I can share as soon as he sends it to me. Here are some good articles for now:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bic...n-some-trails/

    https://www.outsideonline.com/230175...ke-park-e-mtbs

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    Quote Originally Posted by motomike View Post
    Seems like people who hate on e-bikes have never even ridden one before. Itís so far from a real motorized vehicle, like a dirt bike, its laughable that that is even brought up. A couple weeks ago I used a fuel-injected, fire breathing motocross bike at Rocky Knob to haul up some concrete to the top. You couldnít even tell it happened. To think that a pedal-assist bike is going to be out there throwing roost around and ruining trails is pretty funny. I personally donít want an e-bike because I donít need one, but who cares if someone else does! Canít we all just argue about wheel sizes and bottom brackets like the good ole days?
    I know right?! A lot of what I am running into with discussions with our attorneys and insurance company is that they still have no idea how to classify ebikes. This might be a weird analogy but ebikes to me are like drones. The FAA still has no clue how to handle them. This bizarre Pandora's box has been opened with both ebikes and drones. It will take several years for land managers, insurance companies etc to catch up. Hopefully we will see a shift towards data based conclusions and decisions once the industry has time to catch up. I for one embrace change and innovation because I think in the long run it's healthy for all aspects of the industry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motomike View Post
    Seems like people who hate on e-bikes have never even ridden one before. Itís so far from a real motorized vehicle, like a dirt bike, its laughable that that is even brought up. A couple weeks ago I used a fuel-injected, fire breathing motocross bike at Rocky Knob to haul up some concrete to the top. You couldnít even tell it happened. To think that a pedal-assist bike is going to be out there throwing roost around and ruining trails is pretty funny. I personally donít want an e-bike because I donít need one, but who cares if someone else does! Canít we all just argue about wheel sizes and bottom brackets like the good ole days?
    Lol. Iíve ridden one, and the acceleration was impressive. No doubt. What is laughable and why? Some ebikes are certainly capable of doing a lot of what a gas a powered motorbike can, like ďthrowing roostĒ, to think otherwise is just uneducated, but again trail damage is not always the primary concern. Who said that, anyway? Ride your gas machine up the trail a hundred times, with different riders, and see what it looks like. What is funny, is to think that one run on a anything, is any kind of legitimate representation. Laughable, for sure.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    First off, slow your roll chief. I made zero assumptions with you and expect the same in return. If you want to have a respectful conversation, cool. If not you can stop reading now and go somewhere else.

    If you decided to be respectful and are reading this, cool! You have made a lot of assumptions with the previous post so let's get on the same page. My official stance since you "asked" is that ebikes need their own classification. Class 1 pedal assist, let's go with that for now. They obviously aren't a mountain bike. And just because they have a motor they shouldn't be classified with ATVs or dirt bikes. They need their own classification and should be allowed in designated areas. I never said "I want ebikes to share mtn bike trails". I never said "your concerns are not legitimate". I never claimed to be any kind of "authority on ebikes". Accusing me of being "short sided" or "ignorant at best" is pretty unfair since you are basing that conclusion on your assumptions which are completely unfair and quite frankly disrespectful. I also don't sell ebikes so not sure where you got that from.
    My official title is Risk Manager and Patrol Director at Beech Mountain Resort. I travel as a mechanic for a fast junior DH and Enduro racer. I am a former suspension tech at Motion Makers and Cane Creek. I still test and rep product for the awesome people at Cane Creek. I have had in depth conversations regarding ebikes with engineers, marketing directors, product managers, sales reps, risk managers and patrol directors, attorneys, insurance companies, land managers, trail builders, parks and rec directors to name a few. Sales were discussed, but most of the conversations were based on legitimate concerns regarding every aspect that you could possibly think of. You would be surprised how connected and in touch a big bike company like Specialized is for example. It's a common misconception that the big companies only care about selling product. The only true statement in your rant is the fact that ebikes are new. As a result, data is limited. A good friend of mine in the industry has some interesting data including a soil study that I can share as soon as he sends it to me. Here are some good articles for now:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bic...n-some-trails/

    https://www.outsideonline.com/230175...ke-park-e-mtbs
    Donít call me chief. Iím not a native, ok sport? You entered this thread, the one you had no interest in being bothered with, yet here you are, with air of supreme knowledge and wisdom, because ď youíre in the industryĒ. So yeah, youíve not been respectful so much as condescending. And you continue to be. I asked you questions, they were not statements. Though I did claim you sold ebikes, by you, I meant motion makers. It seems that pretty much all of your ďadvocacyĒ is in the private sector, which I couldnít care less about. This discussion concerns public land, where the designations are decided and in place. It doesnít matter what your corporate attorneys designate or get confused about. Itís a different issue. I think you might want to reread your previous posts, and see if you canít understand where Iím coming from. And as an aside, Iíve had all manner of conversations, with all manner of people as well. I certainly donít feel that qualifies me for much. And an article/study from imba is worthless, as is one from a private bike park. They mean nothing to me and are not relevant. And again, trail degradation is not my primary concern. What do yíall focus so heavily on that? Thereís not enough data anyway. The only true statement in your ďrantĒ is that the big companies like Specialized only care about selling product.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Donít call me chief. Iím not a native, ok sport? You entered this thread, the one you had no interest in being bothered with, yet here you are, with air of supreme knowledge and wisdom, because ď youíre in the industryĒ. So yeah, youíve not been respectful so much as condescending. And you continue to be. I asked you questions, they were not statements. Though I did claim you sold ebikes, by you, I meant motion makers. It seems that pretty much all of your ďadvocacyĒ is in the private sector, which I couldnít care less about. This discussion concerns public land, where the designations are decided and in place. It doesnít matter what your corporate attorneys designate or get confused about. Itís a different issue. I think you might want to reread your previous posts, and see if you canít understand where Iím coming from. And as an aside, Iíve had all manner of conversations, with all manner of people as well. I certainly donít feel that qualifies me for much. And an article/study from imba is worthless, as is one from a private bike park. They mean nothing to me and are not relevant. And again, trail degradation is not my primary concern. What do yíall focus so heavily on that? Thereís not enough data anyway. The only true statement in your ďrantĒ is that the big companies like Specialized only care about selling product.


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    Lol, I guess you missed the "don't continue if you are going to be disrespectful? The only thing irrelevant is your attitude. Happy trails.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    Lol, I guess you missed the "don't continue if you are going to be disrespectful? The only thing irrelevant is your attitude. Happy trails.
    Ok man, if you say so. Careful coming down from that high horse. Peace.

  25. #25
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    E bike are still in their infancy. Listen to Dave Turner video and and pay attention to the part were people are already "tuning" them with their phones. People are never happy with just a little power when they can up grade to make it better.

    They are being sold as cute and cuddly little bikes that only help a little. THe problem will be when this puppy grows up and becomes a big dog. There are already some high powered e bikes out there that look just like a regular ebike. Who is going to say your ebike is too powerful once the smaller ones are allowed. They all look alike. At 20 feet you can't tell the difference. Its a slippery slope once anything electrified is allowed. Then you get the ones with large amounts of travel and powerful motors out flying up and down the trails. All regular bikers will suffer when this happens because we will all all be classed together. Land owners need to look past where this is at, and vision where this will be going. Comparing them to drones is a legit comparison. They started as fun little toys.

    The trail erosion discussion is pretty weak, but then so is the only people using ebikes are old and slightly handicapped justification.
    Last edited by Enoch; 07-15-2018 at 06:37 PM.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Ok man, if you say so. Careful coming down from that high horse. Peace.
    Not on a horse. Happy to continue this conversation face to face to prevent any further misunderstanding or convolution. Have a nice day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    Not on a horse. Happy to continue this conversation face to face to prevent any further misunderstanding or convolution. Have a nice day.
    You sure seem like it, Brad. Sure, face to face is great. But like any conversation, sometimes you need to listen. You have a nice day too.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    It doesn't matter that you ride nonmotorized mtbs AND emtbs. What matters with regard to advocacy efforts is the fact that people like me, who ride ONLY nonmotorized mtbs (and have no desire to own an emtb) should not be expected to take the initiative and advocate for emtbs on your behalf. I have my own set of concerns regarding access. I might agree with emtb advocates (if there were people doing real emtb advocacy) from time to time on issues, but I might also disagree. The same way I sometimes agree with hiking or horse advocates, and I sometimes disagree. I don't have to have an unfriendly relationship with them. I just recognize that the things we want sometimes coincide and sometimes they conflict.

    I would never seriously suggest that because we're all nonmotorized that we should all be the same organization and all advocate for each other within that organization. We might partner up where it makes sense, and stay separate where it makes sense.

    I really believe this is the best way forward for ebikers. Their aims will probably overlap more with nonmotorized mtbikers, but I do feel like ebikers would be more effective advocating on their own and backing off on the confrontational attitudes. They need to be conciliatory with existing mtb orgs to find common ground and separate themselves from the 10,000W kits and the modders and the kinds of things that other trail users are really concerned about.

    I suspect also that some land managers are (rightfully) concerned about things like exploding batteries, which have gained some level of exposure. There's also (rightfully) concern that ebikes enable less fit riders to get deeper into trouble. And if/when the electric system fails, how is that less fit rider going to get themselves out of trouble deeper into the boonies with a heavier machine? Is that going to put more strain on emergency services?
    You fail to see any POSITIVES that emtbs can bring to help mtbs and their communities. But your reaction is common, for some. Tides will turn. JMO as you have stated yours. Power in numbers. 99% of manufactures produce a class 1 pedelecs. Maybe emtbs wont be allowed on your federal land, but I guarantee youíll see more and more of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    You fail to see any POSITIVES that emtbs can bring to help mtbs and their communities. But your reaction is common, for some. Tides will turn. JMO as you have stated yours. Power in numbers. 99% of manufactures produce a class 1 pedelecs. Maybe emtbs wont be allowed on your federal land, but I guarantee youíll see more and more of them.
    Like what?

    The numbers are now and pretty much always be pretty low. Even fewer will join any advocacy groups. It is just how advocacy works. MTB orgs won't be missing out on anything substantial if emtbs start their own groups. Maybe a little bit of money and labor, but they can still take advantage of it to some degree if the groups occasionally partner for certain things.

    They sit in a strange place between mtbs and dirt bikes and will never be as popular as either. See, this is a great example of where ebikers need to be truly honest about themselves. They aren't going to revolutionize advocacy if mtb orgs include ebikes into their efforts. It'll be a few extra membership dollars and maybe a couple extra bodies at some work days. Maybe some groups would be lucky to find people with political connections, but most won't. Sure, every body helps, but most mtb orgs will gain more bodies by being more inclusive to women and minority bikers, and getting kids riding mtbs.

    I would like to know how many emtbers who think thet would make these huge impacts in mtb advocacy have actually done anything in bike advocacy before. Or going even wider, regular advocacy for any sort of nonprofit org.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Like what?

    The numbers are now and pretty much always be pretty low. Even fewer will join any advocacy groups. It is just how advocacy works. MTB orgs won't be missing out on anything substantial if emtbs start their own groups. Maybe a little bit of money and labor, but they can still take advantage of it to some degree if the groups occasionally partner for certain things.

    They sit in a strange place between mtbs and dirt bikes and will never be as popular as either. See, this is a great example of where ebikers need to be truly honest about themselves. They aren't going to revolutionize advocacy if mtb orgs include ebikes into their efforts. It'll be a few extra membership dollars and maybe a couple extra bodies at some work days. Maybe some groups would be lucky to find people with political connections, but most won't. Sure, every body helps, but most mtb orgs will gain more bodies by being more inclusive to women and minority bikers, and getting kids riding mtbs.

    I would like to know how many emtbers who think thet would make these huge impacts in mtb advocacy have actually done anything in bike advocacy before. Or going even wider, regular advocacy for any sort of nonprofit org.


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    I think it has a cascading effect. I think if the antagonism, from both sides, and therefore the stigma is dropped their numbers probably go up. There is also the difference in demographics that can allow for more funds and time for advocacy. I think that becomes more and more important as the battles start to land in federal courts and legislature.

    I don't think that goals will align in every instance and support will be on a case by case basis, but by toning down the rhetoric and being even passively supportive there are gains to be had.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    I think it has a cascading effect. I think if the antagonism, from both sides, and therefore the stigma is dropped their numbers probably go up. There is also the difference in demographics that can allow for more funds and time for advocacy. I think that becomes more and more important as the battles start to land in federal courts and legislature.

    I don't think that goals will align in every instance and support will be on a case by case basis, but by toning down the rhetoric and being even passively supportive there are gains to be had.

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    All of those things can be accomplished by different partnering orgs on an as needed basis. Like I said, I fail to see how mtb orgs lose out on all that much by letting emtbers chart their own path.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    All of those things can be accomplished by different partnering orgs on an as needed basis. Like I said, I fail to see how mtb orgs lose out on all that much by letting emtbers chart their own path.

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    It's a strength in numbers play. It's also presenting a combined front to the anti-access groups that have come to fear a combined front. There are also some indirect benefits to being the larger piece of the umbrella that get ignored I think.

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    Last edited by tuckerjt07; 07-17-2018 at 06:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    It's a strength in numbers play. It's also presenting a combined fronts to the anti-access groups that have come to fear a combined front. There are also some indirect benefits to being the larger piece of the umbrella that get ignored I think.

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    Again, the numbers of ebikers are so low (and will always be fairly low) that I don't think it's all that big of a deal. Again, different orgs partner ALL THE TIME on issues where there's mutual interest to specifically gain strength in numbers and a unified voice. I also feel like emtb-specific groups will do a better job of attracting more emtbers than a more general mtb group, which often has a difficult enough time attracting anyone who's not a middle-aged white male. As I said before, those groups have more to gain by figuring out how to involve and attract women and minorities, and programming to get kids on bikes. Compared to that, the potential for emtbers is pretty low.

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    Ebike #ís are low now, for sure. However, itís still early.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Again, the numbers of ebikers are so low (and will always be fairly low) that I don't think it's all that big of a deal. Again, different orgs partner ALL THE TIME on issues where there's mutual interest to specifically gain strength in numbers and a unified voice. I also feel like emtb-specific groups will do a better job of attracting more emtbers than a more general mtb group, which often has a difficult enough time attracting anyone who's not a middle-aged white male. As I said before, those groups have more to gain by figuring out how to involve and attract women and minorities, and programming to get kids on bikes. Compared to that, the potential for emtbers is pretty low.
    I think the numbers of ebikes definitely has the potential to grow. Prices will come way down, and will be available to the masses, at which point it will no longer be wealthy old dudes as the primary consumer. Young, lazy, shredders will want to be rad, and do rad things. That is a real concern. What happens then? Why would I, as a mountain biker want to be a part of that?

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    Let the young shredders shred!
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    Im not sure why these guys think that just because they purchased ebikes that all these trails will magically open for them. It doesn't matter the amount of bikes sold, or how much you paid for them, that is not what opens trails.

    We have been buying mountain bikes for 30 years and trails are closing to us all the time. I can't wait until you walk in to a room full of old ladies and LMs and tell them that your motor does nothing and it's just like a mountain bike. I would love it if you tried the old, "the law says it is not a motorized vehicle so it doesn't have a motor" line. You would get laughed out of the meeting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Im not sure why these guys think that just because they purchased ebikes that all these trails will magically open for them. It doesn't matter the amount of bikes sold, or how much you paid for them, that is not what opens trails.

    We have been buying mountain bikes for 30 years and trails are closing to us all the time. I can't wait until you walk in to a room full of old ladies and LMs and tell them that your motor does nothing and it's just like a mountain bike. I would love it if you tried the old, "the law says it is not a motorized vehicle so it doesn't have a motor" line. You would get laughed out of the meeting.
    Thanks for educating us. Slowly bite by bite you will be munching on your words as more and more trails open to ebikes. Maybe never on federal land, who knows.
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    Your mom rides and eBike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    Meh, not really when you get down to it. I work in the bike industry so have an understanding of the implications from risk management to advocacy. I also have a pretty firm grasp on the European demographic vs US demographic. Arguing about ebikes on the internet is pretty low on my to do list but I respect your opinion.
    Working in the industry means absolutely nothing when it's the bike industry that's pushing e-bikes. If you were smart, given your association with lift trails, you'd be anti e-bike.

    Quote Originally Posted by motomike View Post
    Seems like people who hate on e-bikes have never even ridden one before. Itís so far from a real motorized vehicle, like a dirt bike, its laughable that that is even brought up. A couple weeks ago I used a fuel-injected, fire breathing motocross bike at Rocky Knob to haul up some concrete to the top. You couldnít even tell it happened. To think that a pedal-assist bike is going to be out there throwing roost around and ruining trails is pretty funny. I personally donít want an e-bike because I donít need one, but who cares if someone else does! Canít we all just argue about wheel sizes and bottom brackets like the good ole days?
    One of the go-to responses to anti e-bike people is the "obviously you've never ridden one". A lot of us anti e-bike people have ridden them, and that's not counting the motorcycle guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjopickin View Post
    Your mom rides and eBike.
    And your point is?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Let the young shredders shred!
    They can, on mountain bikes. Iím all for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjopickin View Post
    Your mom rides and eBike.
    Mine? Not a chance. Sheís a ďpuristĒ and rides a ďlegacyĒ bike, cause sheís all old school and stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Mine? Not a chance. Sheís a ďpuristĒ and rides a ďlegacyĒ bike, cause sheís all old school and stuff.
    "Legacy" Bike... I like it! like my buddy's old 96' Subaru Legacy. Man that car wasnt flashy but had class and the tan interior with Tungsten paint was next level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    And your point is?
    I refuse to answer any question posed to me by someone who owns both a Niner AND a Focus... good God man! I really dont know what to say... take a long look in the mirror and our thoughts and prayers are with you...
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    Thatís cool, nothing gained on my end.
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    I rode one for the first time recently and I don't think it gave me much to work with that a normal bike wouldn't, especially considering the trails here. The bike doesn't really add much to your downhill, except maybe a faster initial start, but considering how easy it is to pick up speed on the trails here going down, I don't see that creating much of an issue. On the climbs, the thing climbs technical trails very poorly, so it may reduce fatigue on long, smooth trails, but my experience was that climbing it up any kind of technical features was more of a chore than my regular bike.

    My observation is that the problems with them and user conflicts will come down to trails that are narrower, smoother, (possibly) directional, and traditionally climbed, I think Jim Branch is a good example. Aside from that, I have a hard time seeing a case where user conflicts will occur more with ebikes than regular mountain bikes.

    As for weight causing trail damage, I feel using that argument only reinforces the idea in those advocating against mountain bikes that bikes damage trails. They aren't THAT heavy, the one I rode was around 45lbs, with a 220lb rider + 30lb bike, a 15lb weight increase isn't going to have that much of an effect on the trail surface. We have some riders that are heavier than I am, our loaded bike weight could come close to what an ebike weighs. Since most of our erosion is coming from steep trails traditionally ridden downhill (I could see an argument where spinning out on climbs due to the motor could rut out some sections of trail with heavy ebike use) and the weight of an ebike is marginally increased over standard bikes and heavier riders, I really don't think this is an argument worth making.

    It wasn't for me, but I could see where it'd be useful. I understand the advocacy reasons and don't expect mountain bike groups to advocate on behalf of ebikes, but from the time I spent on one, I see almost no reason that mountain bikers should be so up in arms over this issue and continue to throw ebikes under the bus. Let them advocate for themselves and stop displaying the same NIMBY mentality that every other user group does to us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    I rode one for the first time recently and I don't think it gave me much to work with that a normal bike wouldn't, especially considering the trails here. The bike doesn't really add much to your downhill, except maybe a faster initial start, but considering how easy it is to pick up speed on the trails here going down, I don't see that creating much of an issue. On the climbs, the thing climbs technical trails very poorly, so it may reduce fatigue on long, smooth trails, but my experience was that climbing it up any kind of technical features was more of a chore than my regular bike.

    My observation is that the problems with them and user conflicts will come down to trails that are narrower, smoother, (possibly) directional, and traditionally climbed, I think Jim Branch is a good example. Aside from that, I have a hard time seeing a case where user conflicts will occur more with ebikes than regular mountain bikes.

    As for weight causing trail damage, I feel using that argument only reinforces the idea in those advocating against mountain bikes that bikes damage trails. They aren't THAT heavy, the one I rode was around 45lbs, with a 220lb rider + 30lb bike, a 15lb weight increase isn't going to have that much of an effect on the trail surface. We have some riders that are heavier than I am, our loaded bike weight could come close to what an ebike weighs. Since most of our erosion is coming from steep trails traditionally ridden downhill (I could see an argument where spinning out on climbs due to the motor could rut out some sections of trail with heavy ebike use) and the weight of an ebike is marginally increased over standard bikes and heavier riders, I really don't think this is an argument worth making.

    It wasn't for me, but I could see where it'd be useful. I understand the advocacy reasons and don't expect mountain bike groups to advocate on behalf of ebikes, but from the time I spent on one, I see almost no reason that mountain bikers should be so up in arms over this issue and continue to throw ebikes under the bus. Let them advocate for themselves and stop displaying the same NIMBY mentality that every other user group does to us.
    👍 good post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    I see almost no reason that mountain bikers should be so up in arms over this issue and continue to throw ebikes under the bus. Let them advocate for themselves and stop displaying the same NIMBY mentality that every other user group does to us.
    In large part, this is what most people really want. IMBA didn't need to say anything about them. Too many ebike people are dishonest about what they are and how ebikes are different from pedal bikes. Too many ebike people overplay the similarities.

    I would love an e cargo bike or an e commute bike. I have ridden several. I do agree with you on emtb handling in tech, which is why I won't ever bother with one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    👍 good post.
    Yup, agree.
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    I feel like an e-bike rant. Directed to the world at large.

    We should all remember that when the bike access discussion first started back in the mists of time, we were all riding 35 pound rigid steel 26" bikes. By 'we' I mean the handful of old farts still reading here.

    At that time, riding was all about being in the woods and working, rather than throwing yourself down a mountain as fast as humanly possible so you could post sick vids and Go-Pro Instagram your Strava and all that. And as such, there was inherently less user conflict. Cyclists were still mostly operating in the same general realm as other trail users.

    Now, the brah in the woods may as well be from a different planet as the hateful-old-hiker. Their goals and expectations for trail use are now totally orthogonal. Yet they are still trying to use the same trails. MTB is now all about cramming more gears, and more suspension, and chips and sensors and shims and stoke and getting runs and shredding and ripping and roosting and all that. All that 'progression', brah.

    And you wonder why there's so much user conflict these days? And you want to go ahead and throw motors into that mix? You think encouraging and enabling MORE bikes and more bike-tech wankery on the trail is the answer to trail access?

    'The Industry' has 'Progressed' the 'Sport' to the point where it's too big and too fast for multi-use trails. You guys need to go 'shred' in the parks. 'Get your runs' there, and use your 'motors' there. That stuff is fundamentally incompatible with multi-use trails and if you keep trying to force that fit all you're going to do is get us ALL banned. Even old slow asses like me.

    25 years ago it wasn't unreasonable to make the point that bikes on trails weren't all that far off from foot traffic. Nowadays, go ahead and make the argument that e-bikes aren't THAT much worse than 'regular' mountain bikes - when what you mean is that 'regular' mountain bikes now are $6k 27.5+ bikes with suspension that makes my motorcycle blush, piloted by folks whose main objective is to cram them down the trail as fast as humanly possible... preferably by shuttle or lift.

    Surely they will be sympathetic to your argument. Surely it won't make them re-think bike access in total.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    And you wonder why there's so much user conflict these days? And you want to go ahead and throw motors into that mix? You think encouraging and enabling MORE bikes and more bike-tech wankery on the trail is the answer to trail access?
    The user conflicts come from trail users that are unwilling to accommodate others, that's a trait that extends well beyond mountain bikers and into every user group in the forest.

    I guess the point of my post was to point out that these conflicts are not going to escalate as a result of ebike usage, especially not here. The majority of the climbs in this area are on fire roads or double track, many areas accessible to cars and some wide enough to accept them (even if they are behind gates). The areas that aren't are technical enough that ebikes would be an absolute chore to ride and wouldn't really be any faster than a regular bike. As for the downhill, they really don't add anything at all to the experience especially compared to equivalent long travel bikes.

    I get your frustrations, I hate hearing when people have negative encounters with mountain bikers and I do as much as I can to smooth things over when I see my fellow riders acting like turds. The introduction of ebikes has real no bearing on that issue and I think this area is an area where you can expect considerably fewer conflicts related to ebikes as opposed to trail systems where the majority of the climbing is smooth singletrack, which is pretty much the only place I was able to go faster on one.

    I do agree that it makes the access issues more complicated and, once again, I don't think the mountain bike community should be on the hook to rep for ebikes. If manufacturers are pushing them so hard, then they should be the ones to form organizations to help with access and they should be handled differently. I also don't think mountain bikers bitching about them to the USFS or making literally the same arguments every other user group makes about is does anything to help our case, though.

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    I concur. Lots of things change, not always for the better- but none the less, do change.
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    Fair enough and well said. And yet....

    If you don't believe the MTB community should be on the hook to rep for them, why come here and offer e-bike apologia?

    You've sort of re-made my point. The Industry is going to say that they are not much different than regular bikes, and totally sidestep the point that while that statement is CORRECT, it also casts a harsh bright light on the fundamental problem. E-bikers are pointing at the current situation and saying IT'S NOT THAT DIFFERENT, when the current situation is in fact a complete sh^tshow.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    I concur. Lots of things change, not always for the better- but none the less, do change.
    If you're not careful, you're going to 'change' yourself right out of trail access. That's all I'm saying.

    *edit* In fact, that's exactly what I'm saying.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    Fair enough and well said. And yet....

    If you don't believe the MTB community should be on the hook to rep for them, why come here and offer e-bike apologia?
    I'm relaying my experiences and observations with conversations I've had and my time riding one and/or alongside others riding them. I think a lot of the hate on them comes from lack of understanding and the communally fed fire.

    Why bother when I don't own/plan on owning one? I find it frustrating to see the same NIMBY mentality that every other user group has against us aimed at ebikes. Many of the arguments mountain bikers are using against ebike access could almost be cut and paste from what hikers say about us. I don't expect us to advocate for ebikes, but I don't see why we should be advocating against them, either. We can advocate for ourselves and point out that ebikes are a different animal with their own advocacy efforts.

    Every activity I've ever been involved in, I always think: "Surely, no one has a problem with this" and eventually I find out that someone does and wants to shut it down/limit it. I get a bit frustrated when I see my own community exhibiting that behavior, especially when I feel a lot of it is based on misunderstanding and limited information.

    I also fear that we are digging ourselves a hole with our attitude towards them and, particularly, my observations in how we approach them with land managers. I'm not going to go to a USFS meeting and argue for ebike access, but arguing that they damage trails, creating more user conflicts, etc (all mostly unfounded fears IMO) will eventually come back to bite us. They will realize at some point that they aren't that much different and we're essentially backing up the arguments that every other user has against us.

    We have little to gain by ripping on ebikes, they pose little threat to us or the trails we ride. We can let them advocate for themselves and focus on our own battles rather than feel the constant need to push a negative agenda against ebikes while trying to advance our own.

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    E-bikes in Ranger District don't pose any threat to trails and access beyond 'regular' bikes, sure. Given that ripped up trails and skid marks and angry hikers are already the norm, and so what's a few more?

    I hear you, and I get what you are saying and agree 90%. We're just looking at it from different sides of the window or something.

    What's so hard about saying - "I'm a mountain biker, I support the USFS stance of no motorized vehicles on trails." Why is that so hard? You don't have to editorialize, you don't have to hate on anybody... all you have to do is accept and support the status quo. That's literally the easiest thing in the world. No ripping on anybody required.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    At that time, riding was all about being in the woods and working, rather than throwing yourself down a mountain as fast as humanly possible .... and getting runs and shredding and ripping and roosting and all that. All that 'progression', brah.
    You kids get off my lawn!



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    Oh, cool. So there's actually no problem now because people used to shuttle on an old road in Cali 40 years ago... and also Joe Breeze. Got it. Great point.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

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    I'm a mountain biker and I support the USFS stance of no motorized vehicles on trails unless already designated for motorized access.

    It wasn't hard at all, B. I did amend it as in other districts/states, there's some pretty great trails that motos have access to already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    Oh, cool. So there's actually no problem now because people used to shuttle on an old road in Cali 40 years ago... and also Joe Breeze. Got it. Great point.
    The point is that ripping down hills has always been part of the game. Sure, some people have never done anything but putter around the woods on barely adequate bikes and are happy about it, but riders looking for speed on modified / specialized machines have been in it right from the beginning too. If you think it was one guy at one place one time, you're simply delusional and have somehow completely missed noticing a major aspect of the sport for decades now.

    FWIW, I've been at it for 30 years now, still ride a steel 26" bike regularly and rarely if ever leave the ground if I can help it. Really can't say I take it personally if other people don't do everything the exact same way I do though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Ebike #ís are low now, for sure. However, itís still early.
    Ebikes have been around since the mid 2000ís. Numbers are low because they will always be low. Think about how popular mtbs were in the early 90ís, ten years after they first came out.

    Now take a look at ebikes. No articles about them in mtb magazines and none from the most popular web sites. This after they have been around for more than a decade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    Now take a look at ebikes. No articles about them in mtb magazines and none from the most popular web sites. This after they have been around for more than a decade.
    Not sure if serious...

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    If you think it was one guy at one place one time, you're simply delusional and have somehow completely missed noticing a major aspect of the sport for decades now.
    .
    Of course I don't believe that. But the 'progression' of the sport over the last 40 years has brought us from a couple dozen hippies shuttling a DIRT ROAD to heroes in full-face helmets and armor 'getting runs' on popular and busy public multi-use trails.

    That sort of 'progression' going to bite us in the ass, and I don't see any compelling reason to allow motors into that mix.

    I don't take anything personally - I'm not the mountain bike police. But I'm here to tell you that a line of suited-up begoggled try-hards 'shredding' and skidding their way down Black / Ridgeline is absolutely not good for the sport. And I'm adamantly opposed to letting them have motors to facilitate it.

    And yeah yeah yeah "but this old guy" and "some day you'll get old" and "they're not that much different" and "nobody talks about them" and "they will never be that many" and "they're not for that kind of riding" and blah blah blah. I've heard all that and for my part I don't buy it. It's coming - people are DYING to sell it to you.
    https://www.mbr.co.uk/buyers_guide/e...n-bikes-348254

    That's my opinion. It's worth about as much as you paid for it.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    If you're not careful, you're going to 'change' yourself right out of trail access. That's all I'm saying.

    *edit* In fact, that's exactly what I'm saying.
    I am careful, and legal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    Ebikes have been around since the mid 2000ís. Numbers are low because they will always be low. Think about how popular mtbs were in the early 90ís, ten years after they first came out.

    Now take a look at ebikes. No articles about them in mtb magazines and none from the most popular web sites. This after they have been around for more than a decade.
    Yup, youíre correct. Please show me emtbs from 2000? If they were around for nearly 20 years, than why the worry now?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    I am careful, and legal.
    Then I have absolutely no issue with you and wish you happy trails. I hope you have no issue with me. Nonetheless, I will advocate to not open any public local trails to e-bikes. That's not personal - it's just what I think. Cheers.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    Ebikes have been around since the mid 2000ís. Numbers are low because they will always be low. Think about how popular mtbs were in the early 90ís, ten years after they first came out.

    Now take a look at ebikes. No articles about them in mtb magazines and none from the most popular web sites. This after they have been around for more than a decade.
    Yup, youíre correct. Please show me emtbs from 2000? If they were around for nearly 20 years, than why the worry now?
    The year is 1905 - "Automobiles have been around for 20 years, why worry now?"
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    I don't take anything personally - I'm not the mountain bike police. But I'm here to tell you that a line of suited-up begoggled try-hards 'shredding' and skidding their way down Black / Ridgeline is absolutely not good for the sport. .
    Nope, I'd guess it wouldn't be.

    I would have to imagine that the the overwhelming majority of the fastest riders on the most MUTs are XC guys rocking full spandex kits though. Definitely that way anywhere I can think of in my region anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Nope, I'd guess it wouldn't be.

    I would have to imagine that the the overwhelming majority of the fastest riders on the most MUTs are XC guys rocking full spandex kits though. Definitely that way anywhere I can think of in my region anyway.
    I hear you, but that sure isn't the case here. We are a tourist town, and everybody wants to come here to 'shred'. Flats and tats flat-brim hats, bro. That sort of thing.

    There's plenty local guys in spandex that could hand them all their asses, but they all tend to ride respectfully, unassumingly, and fully under their own power.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    Then I have absolutely no issue with you and wish you happy trails. I hope you have no issue with me. Nonetheless, I will advocate to not open any public local trails to e-bikes. That's not personal - it's just what I think. Cheers.
    No worries, the only issues I have are the damn people in my head!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post

    The year is 1905 - "Automobiles have been around for 20 years, why worry now?"
    Exactly!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    I hear you, but that sure isn't the case here. We are a tourist town, and everybody wants to come here to 'shred'. Flats and tats flat-brim hats, bro. That sort of thing.

    There's plenty local guys in spandex that could hand them all their asses, but they all tend to ride respectfully, unassumingly, and fully under their own power.
    So, no flats or brimmed hats? Tevas, daisy dukes and a banjo on back? Cool, I fit right in!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    I hear you, but that sure isn't the case here. We are a tourist town, and everybody wants to come here to 'shred'.
    Ahhh..dig it.
    Yeah, that could get old quick.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    I hear you, but that sure isn't the case here. We are a tourist town, and everybody wants to come here to 'shred'. Flats and tats flat-brim hats, bro. That sort of thing.

    There's plenty local guys in spandex that could hand them all their asses, but they all tend to ride respectfully, unassumingly, and fully under their own power.
    Yeah, the unassuming locals who kill it are definitely flying under the radar. I have to wonder when/where they ride because I don't see them often. The tourists who come to shred are very obvious and rather tiresome at times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Yeah, the unassuming locals who kill it are definitely flying under the radar. I have to wonder when/where they ride because I don't see them often. The tourists who come to shred are very obvious and rather tiresome at times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Yup, youíre correct. Please show me emtbs from 2000? If they were around for nearly 20 years, than why the worry now?
    Ebikes have been around and gaining popularity very slowly since the mid 2000, just like mtbs were gettting popular in the mid 80ís. Difference is that mtbs attracted youth and just a few years after mtbs came about they were wildly popular. We are now easily over 10 years since functional ebikes have been available, yet there still not accepted by the greater cycling community and are only popular with the elderly.

    So why would i worry? Ebikes are specifically banned where I live and that will never change. Also, this is a huge mtb destination and having ebikes banned here and other popular mtb destinations that ban them does plenty to help detour people from buying an expensive toy that they canít use in the most desirable areas. That alone will help prevent them from ever becoming prevalent like mtbs are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Yeah, the unassuming locals who kill it are definitely flying under the radar. I have to wonder when/where they ride because I don't see them often. The tourists who come to shred are very obvious and rather tiresome at times.

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    The tourists are predictable, and they all ride the same shit. I canít tell you how many times Iíve seen smokers cove and the hatchery lots packed full, and then wondered where the hell everybody was once I got out in the woods. Itís funny, really, but yeah, the tourists are a pain in the ass. No doubt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    the tourists are a pain in the ass. No doubt.
    Not judging you directly... more of a broad brush here but whether you like them or not the tourists who come here and spend their hard earned money a the Hub/Sycamore/Squatch, buying gas or snacks at the local spots, eating at the restaurants, drinking at the breweries, etc, etc. are a GOOD thing.

    Without all these people traveling here to ride, our trails lose their economic value. That has the potential to cause access issues in the future. Try to be friendly to the tourists instead of acting like a snobby local... Nothing worse than a bunch of stuck up "locals" who think they're cooler than everyone.

    And where are you guys running into all these douchey riders? If its not the goggle/flat pedal crowd causing problems then its the lycra/XC folks causing issues? I ride with both groups and never have conflicts with either of them. I ride Pisgah and Dupont multiple times a week including busy weekends and never have problems with other riders either local or tourists on the trails.

    Just because someone rides faster than you or dresses different or prefers to ride a different way doesn't make them a bad person or mountain biker...
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    the only douchery I've been seeing a lot of lately is completely ignoring what are still the right of way rules. No, the downhill rider does not get to continue full speed while the uphill rider, hiker, or who/whatever dodges for his/her life...it's the opposite folks.

    I've seen a lot of that banjo, especially at BC.

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    I've lived in several destination cities before and tourists are the odd ones out everywhere they go. Something about being on vacation causes them to lose their mind and not act like they normally would. I'm sure I've been that guy somewhere before and I'm sure everyone here has, too. It isn't easy to fit into an environment when you have a limited amount of time there (this not excusing outright rude behavior like not tipping, etc).

    I find it is particularly noticeable on the road and that's probably the only place in this area they've gotten on my nerves. It's irritating to be stuck behind someone from FL doing 30 on 276, stopping at every corner, and trying to get back to the fish hatchery. I think this is where I get the most agitated by folks from out of town, I wish they'd recognize the line of traffic behind them and pull over to let people pass (sometimes people do).

    Trailside, I haven't had too much trouble with folks from out of town, but other user groups seem to. I think a lot of the problems we hear about come from people that ride in areas with different rules for riding. They may come from areas with trail systems where bikes have the right of way, trails are directional (so yielding to uphill riders isn't a thing), or there are no horses. This is, IMO, an education issue, most out of towners that ride here once or twice seem to get it pretty quick.

    OTOH, we like to think our community is all friendly, welcoming, and nice, but the reality is I've ridden in several states where the local mtb community is very cold and isolated, full of people who are only worried about their own ride and screw everyone else. I feel like these are the minority, but it does seem to be a cultural problem with people from certain areas. In my experience, areas like Brevard produce really good, talented riders, which tend to have the least attitude because there is always someone better, when you come from an area where you are hot shit because you can ride a buff piece of singletrack faster than the rest of your small community, you tend to get an ego.

    Bent Creek seems to be a bit more problematic for me, though, and that may be because Asheville draws a bigger tourist crowd. I've encountered rude mountain bikers that were local there just as much as tourists, though, but I wouldn't call their behavior disruptive, just not as welcoming as I am used to in other places.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    the only douchery I've been seeing a lot of lately is completely ignoring what are still the right of way rules. No, the downhill rider does not get to continue full speed while the uphill rider, hiker, or who/whatever dodges for his/her life...it's the opposite folks.

    I've seen a lot of that banjo, especially at BC.
    yeah I get that... but that seems to be everywhere not just WNC. Maybe its not as big of a deal to me. Even though its not the proper ettiquette I am happy to get out of the way and let a downhill rider have the ROW. Many of the trails here are wide enough to let both uphill and downhill have enough room... within reason. As long as they check a little speed and dont intentionally try to knock me off trail.

    Now I will admit the one thing that really pisses me off is littering/trash on the trail and at trailheads. That isn't a tourist only problem though...

    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    It's irritating to be stuck behind someone from FL doing 30 on 276, stopping at every corner, and trying to get back to the fish hatchery. I think this is where I get the most agitated by folks from out of town, I wish they'd recognize the line of traffic behind them and pull over to let people pass (sometimes people do).
    Yeah I agree with this as well... I try to take a few deep breathes and remind myself that thos Floridians are probably overwhelmed by the beauty of our forests and also they arent used to driving curvy mountain roads. I don't mind a 5min delay when I'm fixing to spend hours on a bike in the woods...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjopickin View Post
    Now I will admit the one thing that really pisses me off is littering/trash on the trail and at trailheads. That isn't a tourist only problem though...
    Some of the campsites and behavior from campers I've seen lately are an absolute disgrace.

    I rode up in N Mills a few weeks ago and some dude was walking on the road, drinking a beer, he finished it and just tossed it in the woods. I was at an absolute loss for words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    Some of the campsites and behavior from campers I've seen lately are an absolute disgrace.

    I rode up in N Mills a few weeks ago and some dude was walking on the road, drinking a beer, he finished it and just tossed it in the woods. I was at an absolute loss for words.
    That is, unfortunately, a pretty common and universal sight.

    Many people regard public land as their own personal dumpster.

    I try to negate that by searching out, picking up and properly disposing of waste produced by others every time I camp. Leave it better than I found it. The only hint of my time there is a little bit of charcoal and ash.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    Some of the campsites and behavior from campers I've seen lately are an absolute disgrace.

    I rode up in N Mills a few weeks ago and some dude was walking on the road, drinking a beer, he finished it and just tossed it in the woods. I was at an absolute loss for words.
    Did you call him out for that?

    Public shaming is the only thing that seems to work with morons like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    the only douchery I've been seeing a lot of lately is completely ignoring what are still the right of way rules. No, the downhill rider does not get to continue full speed while the uphill rider, hiker, or who/whatever dodges for his/her life...it's the opposite folks.

    I've seen a lot of that banjo, especially at BC.
    Ditto this. Happens all the time. Yesterday, whilst climbing lower side hill with my 11 yo, we encountered a group of folks coming down. The first guy slowed down and told us more weíre coming. The next two blazed past, were called out, and didnít bat an eye. The fourth guy stopped, and when we thanked him and explained what the other three did, he said ďIím sure they didĒ. Awesome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjopickin View Post
    Not judging you directly... more of a broad brush here but whether you like them or not the tourists who come here and spend their hard earned money a the Hub/Sycamore/Squatch, buying gas or snacks at the local spots, eating at the restaurants, drinking at the breweries, etc, etc. are a GOOD thing.

    Without all these people traveling here to ride, our trails lose their economic value. That has the potential to cause access issues in the future. Try to be friendly to the tourists instead of acting like a snobby local... Nothing worse than a bunch of stuck up "locals" who think they're cooler than everyone.

    And where are you guys running into all these douchey riders? If its not the goggle/flat pedal crowd causing problems then its the lycra/XC folks causing issues? I ride with both groups and never have conflicts with either of them. I ride Pisgah and Dupont multiple times a week including busy weekends and never have problems with other riders either local or tourists on the trails.

    Just because someone rides faster than you or dresses different or prefers to ride a different way doesn't make them a bad person or mountain biker...
    Who said anything about douchy riders? My response was simply referencing the crowds. And though I hear what youíre saying about the tourists, and to some to degree, I agree, I largely donít buy it. Iím sure Sam, and some the others reaping the benefits of their location would suffer, but all the trails in the pisgah were there long before the throngs of tourists showed up. They were just not crowded. Iím also not sure where youíre coming from with the garb/style thing. People are loving pisgah to death.
    Last edited by mbmb65; 07-21-2018 at 06:14 AM.

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    Asheville and Brevard advertise the P!$$ out of the Pisgah,and don't put put ANY dollars into trails.At least Myrtle Beach comes up with funding for beach re nourishment. Charge for camping and parking ,require permits for camping.And keep the money in the district,to pay for an E bike jammer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    Some of the campsites and behavior from campers I've seen lately are an absolute disgrace.

    I rode up in N Mills a few weeks ago and some dude was walking on the road, drinking a beer, he finished it and just tossed it in the woods. I was at an absolute loss for words.
    North mills, specifically wash creek rd between the turn off to trace and bad fork, is a shit show, and has been for a while. Iíve been in touch with USFS, through countless emails, and a few phone calls, and they that they are in the process of rectifying some of this, but it takes time. So we will see. It reminds me of Bent Creek 20 years ago. The answer then was to eliminate camping all the way up to the parkway. And as much as it sucks, I think the same should happen in NMR, if the FS canít patrol/control the place. Itís pathetic and said to watch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    That is, unfortunately, a pretty common and universal sight.

    Many people regard public land as their own personal dumpster.

    I try to negate that by searching out, picking up and properly disposing of waste produced by others every time I camp. Leave it better than I found it. The only hint of my time there is a little bit of charcoal and ash.


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    Good on you. I do the same thing. Often to the point that the back of my truck looks as if I work for the sanitation department. The level of disrespect is staggering. And Iím not pointing a finger at tourists for this either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjopickin View Post
    yeah I get that... but that seems to be everywhere not just WNC. Maybe its not as big of a deal to me. Even though its not the proper ettiquette I am happy to get out of the way and let a downhill rider have the ROW. Many of the trails here are wide enough to let both uphill and downhill have enough room... within reason. As long as they check a little speed and dont intentionally try to knock me off trail.

    Now I will admit the one thing that really pisses me off is littering/trash on the trail and at trailheads. That isn't a tourist only problem though...



    Yeah I agree with this as well... I try to take a few deep breathes and remind myself that thos Floridians are probably overwhelmed by the beauty of our forests and also they arent used to driving curvy mountain roads. I don't mind a 5min delay when I'm fixing to spend hours on a bike in the woods...
    Lol. I have a jobsite on the top of town mountain. I drive up and down town mountain rd countless times in a day. You wouldnít believe the number of tourists on that road. Iíve come to the conclusion that itís on a ďbest drive close to townĒ list or some shit. The curves are an issue for many, many folks. Itís nuts. And aside from the commuter section of the parkway, which has a lower speed limit anyway, I really donít get bothered. But damn, during the work a day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Good on you. I do the same thing. Often to the point that the back of my truck looks as if I work for the sanitation department. The level of disrespect is staggering. And Iím not pointing a finger at tourists for this either.
    The locals were the worst when I lived in VA. Iíd regularly see complete sets of bald tires dropped in the NF. And, I kid you not, the trail system parking lot was 3 miles from a public waste transfer station that took household trash, tires, used oil and car batteries. The person who did it probably had to drive past the waste transfer station to get to work, too.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    The locals were the worst when I lived in VA. Iíd regularly see complete sets of bald tires dropped in the NF. And, I kid you not, the trail system parking lot was 3 miles from a public waste transfer station that took household trash, tires, used oil and car batteries. The person who did it probably had to drive past the waste transfer station to get to work, too.


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    Lol. You assume they had a job. Plus, it costs monies to dispose of you trash properly.

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    It seems everywhere I've been with tourist traffic gets more people than usual who have problems with trail etiquette.

    Plenty of cool people, and I enjoy chatting visitors up on the trail or at the bar, but some segment of the population forgets their manners when they travel. That's what gets tiresome for me.

    I am not convinced that the people primarily responsible for trashing campsite could be called either locals or tourists. There are quite a few itinerant people who stay at free NF campsites until they get evicted and then they move on. They have no outdoor ethic, aside from the fact that it's free. The forest I worked for in UT kept close tabs on people and made them move at the cutoff time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Good on you. I do the same thing. Often to the point that the back of my truck looks as if I work for the sanitation department. The level of disrespect is staggering. And Iím not pointing a finger at tourists for this either.
    Itís gotta be those damn ebikers!!😂😂
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Itís gotta be those damn ebikers!!
    Lol. No doubt about it. Bastids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smells Like Fish View Post
    Asheville and Brevard advertise the P!$$ out of the Pisgah,and don't put put ANY dollars into trails.At least Myrtle Beach comes up with funding for beach re nourishment. Charge for camping and parking ,require permits for camping.And keep the money in the district,to pay for an E bike jammer.
    Sounds good. Plus, Transylvania county can redirect all the money it's STILL spending trying to get MORE tourists into the county, and spend it instead on mitigating all the damage that's being done as a result of all those people showing up. I'm all for it. Where do I sign up?

    Seriously. Why are we STILL advertising?
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  97. #97
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    The Truth is out there. Here it isThe TRUTH

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    Ebikes have been around and gaining popularity very slowly since the mid 2000, just like mtbs were gettting popular in the mid 80ís. Difference is that mtbs attracted youth and just a few years after mtbs came about they were wildly popular. We are now easily over 10 years since functional ebikes have been available, yet there still not accepted by the greater cycling community and are only popular with the elderly.

    So why would i worry? Ebikes are specifically banned where I live and that will never change. Also, this is a huge mtb destination and having ebikes banned here and other popular mtb destinations that ban them does plenty to help detour people from buying an expensive toy that they canít use in the most desirable areas. That alone will help prevent them from ever becoming prevalent like mtbs are.
    So again, why worry? Youíve stated they are obviously banned where you live and thatís not gonna change. Donít look now but thereís another ebike review. You know the ones nobody is discussing.
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  99. #99
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    I just personally witnessed one of the best use cases for an e-bike I've ever seen at an enduro today. We were waiting in line for stage one and noticed a guy on an e-bike. After the stage we were talking and wondering are those things allowed in the race. Later I saw one of the organizers standing around a start line so I mentioned it to him. He said, yeah the guy reached out to me about it, I told him he could ride, he told me he did not expect to podium or get anywhere close, but if he podiumed it would be between him and his competitors. Come to find out the guy was a combat vet who suffered a severe injury that significantly reduced his lung capacity. He was shutting it off for the downhills but the only way he could ride with his friends was to use it on the transitions. He didn't want to win, just wanted to have fun, which is what it is all about in my opinion and the bike enabled that.

    I know, cool story bro.

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  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    I just personally witnessed one of the best use cases for an e-bike I've ever seen at an enduro today. We were waiting in line for stage one and noticed a guy on an e-bike. After the stage we were talking and wondering are those things allowed in the race. Later I saw one of the organizers standing around a start line so I mentioned it to him. He said, yeah the guy reached out to me about it, I told him he could ride, he told me he did not expect to podium or get anywhere close, but if he podiumed it would be between him and his competitors. Come to find out the guy was a combat vet who suffered a severe injury that significantly reduced his lung capacity. He was shutting it off for the downhills but the only way he could ride with his friends was to use it on the transitions. He didn't want to win, just wanted to have fun, which is what it is all about in my opinion and the bike enabled that.

    I know, cool story bro.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    I think most everyone here has little to no problem allowing e-bikes for disabled folks and on closed courses; doesn't really have much to do with the overall issue.
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  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I think most everyone here has little to no problem allowing e-bikes for disabled folks and on closed courses; doesn't really have much to do with the overall issue.
    It does because the trails he was riding are already open to him and anyone else regardless of circumstances, have been for some time with no issue.

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  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    It does because the trails he was riding are already open to him and anyone else regardless of circumstances, have been for some time with no issue.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

    So they're open to motos already as well?

    That's the point- I view a pedal assist E-bike the same as motos and so do most people I know . I have no problem with motos on trails that are rated for them. I do have a problem with opening more trails to e-bikes because, by my own logic, they should then be open to motos too. Each trail needs to be looked at individually- which has already happened locally - again, you can ride where it's open for motos.

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    So they're open to motos already as well?

    That's the point- I view a pedal assist E-bike the same as motos and so do most people I know . I have no problem with motos on trails that are rated for them. I do have a problem with opening more trails to e-bikes because, by my own logic, they should then be open to motos too. Each trail needs to be looked at individually- just like, say Wilderness access for mtbs.
    No, they are open to bicycles, no motos. The fact that you personally view something one way does not make that viewpoint reality or even factual.

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  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    So they're open to motos already as well?

    That's the point- I view a pedal assist E-bike the same as motos and so do most people I know . I have no problem with motos on trails that are rated for them. I do have a problem with opening more trails to e-bikes because, by my own logic, they should then be open to motos too. Each trail needs to be looked at individually- which has already happened locally - again, you can ride where it's open for motos.
    Class 1 ebike is hardly a moto. Have you ever ridden a 450? Your logic is skewed.
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  105. #105
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    I agree my perspective is not every one else's reality, it is however a fact that at this point land management in Pisgah District share my perspective and I am glad they do.

  106. #106
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    At this point, you are absolutely correct, but as time goes on, this may change. We also pay taxes and will be entitled to use public lands. It may take awhile, but Iím quite certain class 1 ebikes will be there.
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  107. #107
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    Saying "class 1" e-bikes are the same as motos is even sillier than saying they're the same as bicycles.
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  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Saying "class 1" e-bikes are the same as motos is even sillier than saying they're the same as bicycles.
    Ok, let me clarify. I'm not saying it rides the same as a moto you're right that'd be a foolish thing to say. I'm saying that, in my opinion, they should have the same access as a moto under current rules.

    Respectful discussion is welcome. EDITED. Can we all try to keep it that way?

    Thanks!

  109. #109
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    I think rules should be updated to reflect reality. E-bikes are NOT the same as bicycles, but they're definitely a lot closer to them than they are to motos. I don't see why the access picture shouldn't reflect that.
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  110. #110
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    I agree, itís not like Iím running VP in my 2 smoke! Wait til they get more mainstream and all the tourists bring them here. Personally, Iíd welcome the cash flow and trail support. IME, almost all emtbrs ive ran into are current mtbrs. Howís that gonna play out?
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  111. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Wait til they get more mainstream and all the tourists bring them here. Personally, Iíd welcome the cash flow and trail support. IME, almost all emtbrs ive ran into are current mtbrs. Howís that gonna play out?
    It'll play out with The Hub starting to rent e-bikes and sending them all to the Thrift / Lower Black / Sycamore complex. Squatch might start too and send them all up Bracken.

    The motorcycle rental guy by the Marathon station will realize that 'real' motorcycles are too expensive and carry too much liability -so he will switch right over to renting out e-bikes to tourists also.

    Oskar Blues will buy Kay-Kays and run an e-bike rental fleet to hit Ridgeline with. They will rename it Yak-Yak's... because spelling words backwards apparently seems clever to them.

    In a short period of time, all the close-in trails here will look just like the side of the road at Looking Glass. It'll be great!
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  112. #112
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    I donít think that snowball is going to happen. Bicycles will always out number the emtbs.
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  113. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    It'll play out with The Hub starting to rent e-bikes and sending them all to the Thrift / Lower Black / Sycamore complex. Squatch might start too and send them all up Bracken.
    The staff at The Hub has made it pretty clear that they are opposed to ebikes and won't be renting them out. I'm not even sure they carry any brands that have ebikes except Pivot.

    Squatch, I think Rocky Mountain (Do they still carry RM? Who is the local RM dealer? Seems to change a lot) has an ebike, but AFAIK none of their other brands have ebikes.

    The most likely ebike demos are going to be out of Sycamore, being a Specialized dealer, but with the current attitude from them locally and, especially, nowhere locally to legally ride them, I doubt that's gonna happen anytime soon, either. I think if they did, some of the people that work there might ceremonially burn it as soon as it arrives. So yea, probably not going to happen.

    OB may actually be the only reasonable place you could demo one in the area because they aren't against the rules on the local property there AFAIK. I know at the last festival, they weren't letting people go into DuPont with them, but who are they going to carry? Reeb isn't going to make one. I think you are more likely to see a lawnmower engine attached to a Sqweeb doing laps out there than you are an ebike.

    While I expect attitudes to mellow and change, I don't see any of the Brevard shops offering ebike demos anytime soon. Asheville is a different story. Personally, I think it's gonna be 7-10 years before we see any meaningful change in attitudes and rules around emtbs.

  114. #114
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    If the BLM and USFS changes itís laws and allows ebikes in, every one of those shops will be selling and servicing them. Donít let them fool you. Always about the benjamins.
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  115. #115
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    Liberty, motion makers, and Asheville Bicycle Co all have e-bikes in stock ready to sell (I've been pedal cycle shopping). Youngblood has a rental fleet for tourist tours around town. They're here now.

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    So MM is selling Levoís? Thatís ironic with Bent Creek being NON ebike, correct?
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  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    So MM is selling Levoís? Thatís ironic with Bent Creek being NON ebike, correct?
    Correct. Theyíre a specialized store. If speshy makes it, theyíll sell it.

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