Corn Mill Shoals crossing in DuPont- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Corn Mill Shoals crossing in DuPont

    I received the following email from David Brown over the weekend:

    "I have had a couple of calls this week about the CMS crossing. It may be
    that the water is up causing the current to be stronger and more dangerous.
    I don't know how practical it would be to route the trail to another
    crossing point. In the meantime, do you think we should put up a warning
    sign and recommend that horses do not cross?"
    David Brown- Forest Supervisor


    Water levels are indeed higher than normal for this time of year thanks to a wet summer/fall 09 and continued wet winter and to now. I think we can safely say we are out of the drought and water tables are back to normal. This is good news for farmers and in general, but it means that Corn Mill Shoals crossing is higher than normal for this time of year and there have been a number of recent accidents at this ford.

    Equestrians are at the greatest risk and there have been several fairly serious falls resulting in injury. Mountain bikers who tried to ride this are also pretty sketchy and again there have been some falls and injury (including a broken hip). Mountain bikers should use good judgment and caution when crossing, be aware the water is more pushy than past years. For best traction, take your shoes off but keep your socks on to cross.

    Signs will soon be posted as a heads up to all users:

    "Attention:
    Due to seasonal high water flow and swift currents, Corn Mill Shoals crossing is more difficult to cross than more normal levels of water. Extreme caution is advised. This ford is not recommended for equestrian users due to the high water and slick rock under foot. Hikers and mountain bikes should use good judgment and caution if you choose to cross. The best technique for traction on wet rock is to remove your shoes but leave your socks on. All users crossing at this location do so at your own risk. Long term solutions for an easier crossing here are being explored."

    If there is an increase in accidents and injuries at this ford, forest management will almost be forced to act with exploring a safer way to get across at this location. I know some of you have whined about not wanting to see a bridge here, but that very well may be a solution adopted (though would not go in until budget allowed). I have studied the location and the best place for a bridge is upstream 50+ feet, this would leave the crossing open for those who wanted to go across there.

    Woody

  2. #2
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    I would love to see a bridge there. The walking across bit loses its charm in the winter. Or maybe just some BFRs in the creek that you can walk on, like they have at Reasonover.
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  3. #3
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    when did sharing an opinion become whining? oh, i'm sorry was that whining?

  4. #4
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    I say put in a bridge and why are people whining about one???? People whining about something on this forum should not have any impact on what David Brown or (You)Woody does. And yeah lets get those signs up

  5. #5
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    As a stopgap, or during periods of higher flow, can't you just run a line across at shoulder height for folks to hang onto? Won't help the horses, but everyone else will benefit.

    Probably improving the crossing will invite lawsuits though, so any improvement would have to be pretty near foolproof. Like an actual bridge. Which is a bummer.
    When the going gets weird its bedtime.

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    Would a bridge have to be built for horse traffic? It seems like it to solve the problem. Sounds like a pretty $ub$tantial project.

    I really don't have a problem with a bridge IF the current trail and ford are left untouched. That crossing is a right of passage in Dupont. There is nothing more satisfying than riding through the current, past a bunch of tourons sitting on the side scratching their heads and flashing the rooty exit.

    As far as rocks go. Have you seen that section of river at flood stage. You would have to use VW bus sized rocks if you wanted them to be there afterwards.

  7. #7
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    I spoke to one horse guy who said that the metal horseshoes grip that rock like crazy... dunno.

    For those who don't know, later in the summer (not in the winter or spring!)when the black moss/algae/critters develop on the downslope of the falls, there is great grip.

    I would use a bridge if it had one. Upstream from there would be good.

  8. #8
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    So is it the difference of opinion that constitutes whining?

  9. #9
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    I'd be happy to use a bridge. Or stepping stone rocks. The rocks could be doweled to the existing stone.

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    gap jump
    ride fast...take chances...

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    + 1 for stepping stones, like reasonover. or, why not a temporary pontoon or rope bridge during heavy flow days. call it operation kotex.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostbear51
    + 1 for stepping stones, like reasonover. or, why not a temporary pontoon or rope bridge during heavy flow days. call it operation kotex.

    steppin stone and rope bridges aren't going to address the horse issue. that would mean a bigass bridge sollution like conservation road bridge or buckforest

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by brado1
    steppin stone and rope bridges aren't going to address the horse issue. that would mean a bigass bridge sollution like conservation road bridge or buckforest
    agreed! Maybe this needs to be a steel bridge with concrete abutments so it will outlast then next flood stage.

    Sounds very expensive. Perhaps they can pay for it when the new management team starts charging admission. Or perhaps it could be a toll bridge.

  14. #14
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    "Steppin stone and rope bridges aren't going to address the horse issue."

    Correct, and if we are going to invest in a crossing it should carry all users.

    "That would mean a bigass bridge solution like conservation road bridge or buckforest[/QUOTE]"

    Not correct. TD has build a number of bridges that were 4-5' width that were plenty strong enough to carry horses. This is a long span and that poses some problems. I would recomend a fiberglass bridge such as this:
    http://www.ettechtonics.com/

    There are several of these down in SC state parks.

    Woody
    Last edited by Woodman; 06-02-2010 at 09:57 AM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by wooglin
    As a stopgap, or during periods of higher flow, can't you just run a line across at shoulder height for folks to hang onto? Won't help the horses, but everyone else will benefit.

    Probably improving the crossing will invite lawsuits though, so any improvement would have to be pretty near foolproof. Like an actual bridge. Which is a bummer.
    Iffy at best, and you are correct it could lead to a lawsuit if the rope or cable caused an accident. Also does not solve the safety issue for horses, and they are the greatest risk in this crossing. I watched a horse go down there one time, no injury but it scared the poo out of me (and the rider on the horse).

  16. #16
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    "Would a bridge have to be built for horse traffic? It seems like it to solve the problem. Sounds like a pretty $ub$tantial project."


    Yes, bridge would need to carry horses. Yes, this would be an expensive bridge. My guess is 15-25K.

    "I really don't have a problem with a bridge IF the current trail and ford are left untouched. That crossing is a right of passage in Dupont."

    Yes, the idea would be to go upstream a ways and not affect the current ford. That is really the best location for a bridge.

    "As far as rocks go. Have you seen that section of river at flood stage. You would have to use VW bus sized rocks if you wanted them to be there afterwards."

    Correct. The water just upstream is very deep at normal levels. Putting stepping stone rocks there would be huge. Smaller rocks down sitting on what we all know to be slick slab rock just would not work. The stones at R. Creek crossing are sitting in river sand and rock. Though I don't think DSF management got such for that, putting large rocks in a stream for stepping stones requires a permit from the Army Corp of Engineers as doing so can change the hydro flow.

  17. #17
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    Maybe a rope swing like in Indiana Jones or something?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65
    So is it the difference of opinion that constitutes whining?


    No not really. Folks are obviously free to post what they want in this context, a forum which has no real bearing on decision making.

    The last time this came up a few years back, there was however a lot of whining about how a bridge would ruin the whole DuPont experience. As a professional trail consultant, I have to think bigger picture and greatest good (what is good for many users not just "hard core" mountain bikers, risk management issues, resource protection etc.). Though I am not getting paid to offer advice and consult in this case, I still give similar opinion when I am doing pro-bono work (doctors doing charity work in Haiti act the same as when do paid work here in the US).

    Land managers (and me for that matter) tend to listen more to the folks who are helping with the work required to manage any given piece of public lands. Those who simply talk but never show up for work projects, public meetings etc. tend to get ignored by most land managers. Those who contribute a lot tend to get their voice heard.

    Each rider should from time to time ask not "what do I want" but instead try and understand what is the best solution for many.

    That is not to say that every trail must accomodate every rider. Look at the work we did on Burnt Mountain trail. David wanted to re-locate the steep section and put it on a more sustainable grade. I was able to convince him that a trail system as large as DSF needs some most difficult trails and that we could do a lot of armoring work to make that section work. TD donated the design, a lot of paid labor, machine use and we managed our crew some days and SORBA volunteers on other days to complete the project. This section has held up well and still provides a good challenge to many riders.

    Woody
    Last edited by Woodman; 06-02-2010 at 11:20 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman

    There are several of these down in SC state parks.

    Woody

    and they don't allow the horses on 'em

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/brado1/4534835081/" title="DSC_0327 by brado1, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4023/4534835081_ff622a62ab_b.jpg" width="687" height="1024" alt="DSC_0327" /></a>


    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/brado1/2753468086/" title="Croft Passage Palmetto Trail by brado1, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3062/2753468086_442d2decb9_b.jpg" width="1024" height="685" alt="Croft Passage Palmetto Trail" /></a>

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/brado1/2752643249/" title="Croft Passage Palmetto Trail by brado1, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3103/2752643249_efcea678f0_b.jpg" width="1024" height="685" alt="Croft Passage Palmetto Trail" /></a>

  20. #20
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    Nice photos, thanks for sharing. I have some photos of these, but as always am not quick as you are.

    They don't allow horses perhaps for some other reason (are the trails shown open to horses at all?). ET-T designs bridges that are plenty strong enough for horses, and many of these are in place in different places. Though we have never built one, I have spoken to the engineers there at great length.

    Woody

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman
    No not really. Folks are obviously free to post what they want in this context, a forum which has no real bearing on decision making.

    The last time this came up a few years back, there was however a lot of whining about how a bridge would ruin the whole DuPont experience. As a professional trail consultant, I have to think bigger picture and greatest good (what is good for many users not just "hard core" mountain bikers, risk management issues, resource protection etc.). Though I am not getting paid to offer advice and consult in this case, I still give similar opinion when I am doing pro-bono work (doctors doing charity work in Haiti act the same as when do paid work here in the US).

    Land managers (and me for that matter) tend to listen more to the folks who are helping with the work required to manage any given piece of public lands. Those who simply talk but never show up for work projects, public meetings etc. tend to get ignored by most land managers. Those who contribute a lot tend to get their voice heard.

    Each rider should from time to time ask not "what do I want" but instead try and understand what is the best solution for many.

    That is not to say that every trail must accomodate every rider. Look at the work we did on Burnt Mountain trail. David wanted to re-locate the steep section and put it on a more sustainable grade. I was able to convince him that a trail system as large as DSF needs some most difficult trails and that we could do a lot of armoring work to make that section work. TD donated the design, a lot of paid labor, machine use and we managed our crew some days and SORBA volunteers on other days to complete the project. This section has held up well and still provide a good challenge to many riders.

    Woody

    Well said Woody! Thank you for all you do in regards to the trail politics, design,construction and maintenance of our areas trail systems.

  22. #22
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    In this context horses are limited more by footing than by water depth. Is there somewhere upstream with better footing that, while deeper than most of us want to go, would not be too deep for horses and their riders? How deep are equestrians comfortable wading their mounts? Waist deep for a person is probably just over belly deep for a horse.

    Bridges are expensive. Especially ones that either wash away or won't wash away.
    When the going gets weird its bedtime.

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    "In this context horses are limited more by footing than by water depth."

    True, but I would add that depth and speed of current also are a factor.

    "Is there somewhere upstream with better footing that, while deeper than most of us want to go, would not be too deep for horses and their riders? How deep are equestrians comfortable wading their mounts? Waist deep for a person is probably just over belly deep for a horse."

    Yes, horses will go in deeper water than humans as they are taller. There are however limitations. The technical answer to your question is I have looked upstream a bit and there are no natural fords anywhere close. To create a crossing or ford in the area upstream would require disturbance of the banks which de-stabilizes them, but also requires an Army Corp permit (which is not cheap or fun). Bridges do not require any permitting as they do not: change water flow, or disturb stream banks.

    That idea also only solves a problem for horses and does nothing for mountain bikers and hikers. You would also have to address that some other way and the combo of 2 crossings (ford for horses, stepping stones for people) would likely cost more than a bridge that could carry all users.

    https://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y1...t=DSCF0973.jpg

    That is Carlos going for an unexpected wet entry. There have been at least 2 broken hips here doing the same thing. What if someone drowned in the process of being seriously hurt and caught up in the bike?

    "Bridges are expensive. Especially ones that either wash away or won't wash away."

    Yes, my guess is 15-25K for this location. There is not a likely-hood of one being built any time soon due to $ reasons. The state has to however explore options and try and to make this a safer crossing (and giving a bridge would do it).

    Remember the accident several years back where a young boy fell to his death off a elevated boardwalk at Chimney Rock? The family has filed a suit against the state and the previous park owner? I am the expert consultant for the defense team in that case.

    If there was ever a serious injury at CMS (death or loss of lower extremities due to back/neck injury), it would likely result in a lawsuit. Remember, this is America (though I am also under retainer for several other lawsuits: 2 in Canada and 1 in the UK).

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman
    Nice photos, thanks for sharing. I have some photos of these, but as always am not quick as you are.

    They don't allow horses perhaps for some other reason (are the trails shown open to horses at all?). ET-T designs bridges that are plenty strong enough for horses, and many of these are in place in different places. Though we have never built one, I have spoken to the engineers there at great length.

    Woody

    Horses are not allowed at all on the other side of the bridge. Don't know if the bridge can hold them, but do know they are not allowed over there anyway.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  25. #25
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    i think it's funny how modern society feels the need to protect people from the dangers of nature... when it's nature that needs to be protected by dangerous people....

  26. #26
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    Glad I read this post before ordering! The ad stated I could shotgun a lanyard 63 feet.

    I do have a "fear factor" regarding that crossing and have choked bad enough (3x) that I detoured. This was never an issue, til I got my bionic metal knee, but I love that area!

    If a bridge vote is on the table - I'd say "yeah", but further up and out of sight.

    Please don't spoil the beauty of the rocks & river.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Corn Mill Shoals crossing in DuPont-magicial_bike_bridge.jpg  

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  27. #27
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    This wet entry by Carlos wasn't completely unexpected :



    I told him to follow my line and he didn't Good thing I had the camera ready!

    Maybe in addition to the signs we could also paint a line on the bottom to show people the line across?

    I'm not fond of big bridges in the woods. If you can't cross it, turn around and go back from where you came!

    Edited to add:

    Here is a dry exit by the extreme tomato:

    Last edited by driftwood; 06-02-2010 at 07:12 PM.
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  28. #28
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    It is funny, you tell folks exactly where to go at this crossing and they just don't believe you. For those of you who don't know, the best grip is on the black growth just down from where the riffles start. The worst grip is where is looks natural to go, the quiet water just up from there but this is polished granite and slick as owl ****.

    Driftwood,

    Just wondering, do you cross the Bill D. Bridge or do you take the horse ford when riding R. Creek Trail?

    Bridges are pretty standard structures found on trails. Trails to have a range of management strategies, we call these TMO (Trail Management Objectives). The USFS has a trails matrix of Classification of 1-5 with 1 being a primitive trail in a Wilderness area (say Shining Rock) and 5 being fully developed (for instance a asphalt or gravel trail in a developed recreation area). Class 1 trail may not provide a bridge or if there is a bridge it is primitive, where as Class 3-5 trails would provide a more formal bridge to cross a stream. The National Park Service has a similar matrix, but they often just refer to them as Backcountry vs. Frontcountry trails. Here is some more info on trail classifications:
    http://www.alaska-trails.org/trail_c..._1_31_2005.pdf


    In DuPont, there are again management strategies for different trails. This crossing would certainly not be considered in a Backcountry area. It is within 1.5 miles of the car and sees a lot of casual users (Clay would be considered to be a hard core trail user).

    It is difficult to have "backcountry area" as a designation where there are 5 parking areas surrouding the forest. These 5 parking areas do however divide the forest up into different "experiences" and help reduce user conflict.
    Last edited by Woodman; 06-03-2010 at 05:48 AM.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman
    It is funny, you tell folks exactly where to go at this crossing and they just don't believe you. For those of you who don't know, the best grip is on the black growth just down from where the riffles start. The worst grip is where is looks natural to go, the quiet water just up from there but this is polished granite and slick as owl ****.

    Driftwood,

    Just wondering, do you cross the Bill D. Bridge or do you take the horse ford when riding R. Creek Trail?

    Bridges are pretty standard structures found on trails. Trails to have a range of management strategies, we call these TMO (Trail Management Objectives). The USFS has a trails matrix of Classification of 1-5 with 1 being a primitive trail in a Wilderness area (say Shining Rock) and 5 being fully developed (for instance a asphalt or gravel trail in a developed recreation area). Class 1 trail may not provide a bridge or if there is a bridge it is primitive, where as Class 3-5 trails would provide a more formal bridge to cross a stream. The National Park Service has a similar matrix, but they often just refer to them as Backcountry vs. Frontcountry trails. Here is some more info on trail classifications:
    http://www.alaska-trails.org/trail_c..._1_31_2005.pdf


    In DuPont, there are again management strategies for different trails. This crossing would certainly not be considered in a Backcountry area. It is within 1.5 miles of the car and sees a lot of casual users (Clay would be considered to be a hard core trail user).
    Are there any Backcountry trails in DuPont?

  30. #30
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    Quote function didn't work:

    dwood said:

    "Maybe in addition to the signs we could also paint a line on the bottom to show people the line across?

    I'm not fond of big bridges in the woods. If you can't cross it, turn around and go back from where you came!"



    Unfortunately, common sense is very uncommon.

  31. #31
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    Again, there is no black growth there in Winter/Spring. No growth = no grip.

  32. #32
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    Add me to the list of people that have biffed in the drink, once when it was cold outside and it made the rest of the ride suck. I just don't really see a disadvantage to having the bridge there if the ford is left intact in addition. It makes everybody happy.
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  33. #33
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    I agree with the bridge idea. Horseback traffic could be routed across upstream a little from the bridge.

  34. #34
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    My flashing idiot sign in my mind has been officially dimmed after seeing those pictures above. For the longest time I thought that I was the only member of the Corn Mill Shoals Swim Club. I have dried out my gear on those rocks on several occasions.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65
    Are there any Backcountry trails in DuPont?

    65,

    No, not really. It is really hard to have a defined backcountry area with so many points of ingress (fancy park planning term). Reasonover Creek would be the closest thing.

    There really is no forest management plan. David has been working on that for years, but it has not been completed or adopted. The plan he is working on has 9 different forest compartments with different emphasis in each. For some, recreation is the main management focus. In others, improving wildlife is the key emphasis. This is pretty standard forest planning stuff and mirrors somewhat the LRMP (Land and Resource Management Plan) for Pisgah.

    There is also not a real trail management plan. One was developed many years ago, but is not a real valid tool and is seldom if ever referenced. It was developed by a NC State Grad student in Forestry/Resource Management and he really knew nothing about trails. It certainly did not have any specific management recomendations, and thus why it is not really used. There has been talk about developing a new trails and recreation plan for DuPont, but it is just talk at this point. One of the selling tools by the state for the idea of state park involvement is that state parks does have planners on staff.

    Another fun angle to this is that NC Division of Forest Resources does not have any guidelines for trails and is not really in the business of managing recreation. Again, that is the continued reason for some state parks involvement as they do have trail guidelines and experience managing recreation. We have been able to greatly infuance trail management in DSF down through the years and David, Bruce and the rest of the staff have been great to deal with and eager to learn. We were getting permission to build log rides and other TTFs in DuPont when state parks has been resistant to just plain mountain biking. We got permission for the kids trail, skills area and pump track, that is pretty progressive management. When looking at new trail alignments with David, he will say things like: " This rock here will make a pretty nice jump want it?".

    There is however a limit to how far we push the envelope. Don't think for a minute that ladder bridges and full on free ride trails have a place in DuPont, that will never happen.
    They have however been great to work with and we continue to improve trails for mountain bikers of all abilities and other users as well. DuPont was rated #1 mountain bike trail system by the readers of Blue Ridge Outdoors. It is cool that hard core riders enjoy some trails and aspects of DuPont, but at the same time families with riders of a lower skill level can come out ride down Ridgeline and have a big smile on.
    Last edited by Woodman; 06-03-2010 at 03:04 PM.

  36. #36
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    fwiw, there are already holes drilled in the rock at the current crossing. what used to be there?
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    Quote Originally Posted by iridetitus
    fwiw, there are already holes drilled in the rock at the current crossing. what used to be there?

    A low water bridge for timber extraction (logging) was in place there many moons ago. The road used to go straight up and Trail Dynamics (under contract) closed that section and did the re-lo that includes the rock slabs section and the great overlook of Cedar Rock Trail. The Shoals trail was also an old steep extraction road that we re-located onto the current alignment, that work was done as part of an IMBA workshop back in fall 2004.

  38. #38
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    Accentuate the Positives.

    Though you are unfortunately on the mend, it's great to have you posting important local information!



    I like new words.

    Yes - to a bridge. No - at Corn Mill Crossing
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman
    Just wondering, do you cross the Bill D. Bridge or do you take the horse ford when riding R. Creek Trail?
    Is that the bridge at the bottom of Reasonover? If so, yes I take it. The approach to the ford is rather sandy and the bridge actually is a little challenging to ride. I know bridges are part of trails. In fact I love the simple log bridges that are all over Pisgah. I usually will ride the fords if possible but those bridges have a certain aesthetic appeal. A couple of big logs lashed together seem natural and other than a few fasteners most of the parts are all from the surrounding forest. They don't seem out of place at all.

    I think why people are not too excited about a big bridge being built (or placed) at Corn Mill Shoals is because it is naturally a beautiful spot. A big bridge would change that. Also the shoals do provide a real challenge. I've stood there in the winter looking at it wondering if I should try it (sometimes I do, sometimes I don't).

    Anyway, this conversation really isn't too relevant at this time. Signs are going up, not a bridge. There is no contract for a $25,000 bridge right now, just some signs. Signs, signs, everywhere signs....
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  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation: "CHIEF"'s Avatar
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    Driftwood's axles don't even get wet.

    People have choices. They can stop. That's their first choice. They can proceed or turn around. They can use their common sense and turn around on their bike, or off their bike. Same goes for horses. Equestrians can assess that the situation might be tricky. Or that a miscalulation or inherent risk may place themselves in harm's way. No one is forcing them to cross the river. At all. Consult a map and move on. Think that if your horse slips and falls on you that it might hurt. A little.

    This reminds me of the event that I set up in Dupont in which a rider deemed Johanna Road too technical to be featured in the route choice. There were lots of flags up, caution tape, and heck it was even played up in the marketing: "No views, no waterfalls, no slick rock, lots of babyheads, and less horse poop!" The rider was upset that medical staff was not present at that location despite their presence at three other locations within the forest on the route. If the trail is too freaking challenging, dismount. Duh! You're only on a bike. Walk around it. No one's looking.

    "For anyone else out there reading this thread, I understand that there is some concern about having the seven-mile ride travel on the rocky section of Johanna Mtn. Rd. While we are presently considering offering a reroute through our property proper that is less challenging and may be slightly shorter, we still plan on offering the original route which will feature Johanna. Be forewarned that this may present the less experienced crowd with a confusing set of intersections, a different sort of issue, so really it's kind of no-win. This will be explained to riders day of and will be well marked. But I do want to acknowledge your feedback and encourage anyone to dismount if they feel that they are getting in over their heads."

    I'm a pus. I am. I dislike Corn Mills Shoals because I hate getting my feet wet at the start of the ride or at the end of the ride when I have managed to stay dry all day. So, I choose other routes. Where I stay dry. And when I'm with Driftwood, I don't think I'm a stud who can ride across it and not fall. But seriously, if you ride with Driftwood anywhere in NC he's going to find a way to ride through at least all of the river crossings. Needless to say, water does not negatively influence his choices.

    Keep it as it is. Not having a bridge cuts down on traffic in that area. Having a bridge will create more erosion, parking issues, and user group conflict. It's like a filter of sorts.
    "You can make some of the people happy some of the time, but you can't make all of the people happy all of the time."

  41. #41
    drunken pirate
    Reputation: driftwood's Avatar
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    Nice post, Chief! Well said. But allow me to clarify one thing:

    Quote Originally Posted by CHIEF
    when I'm with Driftwood, I don't think I'm a stud who can ride across it and not fall. But seriously, if you ride with Driftwood anywhere in NC he's going to find a way to ride through at least all of the river crossings. Needless to say, water does not negatively influence his choices.
    I no longer ride my bike through water hub deep. If it is under my hubs you'd better bet I'm gonna try it but if it is over I dismount and run through. Ever since starting Broussard Training Systems I've learned that sealed bearings rotating through water is not a good thing

    The first time I rode with the WNDC I was surprised when we got to the river and everyone got off and walked across. I thought maybe there was a new under water obstruction or something I didn't know about so I walked as well.... The next week Cook was there and rode across and I followed him, everyone else walked... Now, everyone rides it. One night we had at least 8 make it in a row
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