Break in the rain doesn't mean lets ride- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Break in the rain doesn't mean lets ride

    Just a friendly reminder to please stay off the trails if the weather gives us a break today, local trails are way too wet to withstand bike traffic.
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    I was driving from Memphis back to Spartanburg yesterday and hit Polk County about 9. Holy cow, I have never seen so much rain. I would think it would take a week or more to dry out from that one. I saw that a woman was killed in a mud slide in Tryon. What a mess. Big thanks to the fire and rescue folks for a heroic effort getting things under control last night.
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    I saw a facebook post that said Green River Game Lands were in terrible shape, and would take months of work to repair. The pictures showed trails completely washed out. The post said that the water bars were washed away, and that Bishop Branch was impassable.

    I haven't heard much about DuPont, but in doing a quick check, there have been 2 or 3 dozen riders on the trails today according to Strava. I saw all the damage and flooding around Brevard earlier this week, so I can imagine that most of Pisgah was hammered.
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  4. #4
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    I will be out on some gravel roads tomorrow taking advantage of the one day break before the the next 2-3 days of rain come. But yeah, definitely staying off the trails.
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    Calling for rain at least through Friday, May 25th in upstate SC and WNC.

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    Yep I'll be road riding today before some trail work.



    A couple photos of Green River from south side (Green River Cove Road)

    Lowest switchback on Bluff, trail continues around the (former) switchback toward upper right of the photo.

    Break in the rain doesn't mean lets ride-419201813434.jpg

    Green River Cove trail, can't walk more than 100 yards without seeing a new slide. Trail is taken out.

  7. #7
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    Are people supposed to wait for a week of dry weather? It looks like we are in a typical summer pattern now, with an afternoon storm of shower every other day. Of course it looks like rain for the next week. I'm not saying the trails should be ridden right now, but what is a realistic timeframe for Bent Creek and DuPont? I'm sure by now most of the heavy rain has cleared out, with the usual wet spots still super soggy and the springs high. Is there a lot of trail damage in Pisgah/DuPont?

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    Rode Coldwater Mountain ( AL ) on Saturday ( 5-19 ) Dry and fast. Conditions were perfect. This Mountain drains exceptionally well. Steep and rocky so water sheds quickly. Called Wig's Wheels in Anniston on Thursday to check conditions, Mike said they hadn't had any rain all week. Called again on Friday, and they got rain Thursday night. Showed up early Saturday to dry conditions. Seems alot of other people did the same thing I did. Quite a few riders were there.
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  9. #9
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    Trails here were fine. Sure you'll spin your tire at places, hook more than usual, but if you can handle it like me, you can ride.

  10. #10
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    Great day to be in the Pisgah. Business as usual, choose carefully.


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  11. #11
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    Trace was shockingly good today. I didn't ride...we cleared corridor for a few hours though. Man that thing gets overgrown.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Are people supposed to wait for a week of dry weather? It looks like we are in a typical summer pattern now, with an afternoon storm of shower every other day. Of course it looks like rain for the next week. I'm not saying the trails should be ridden right now, but what is a realistic timeframe for Bent Creek and DuPont? I'm sure by now most of the heavy rain has cleared out, with the usual wet spots still super soggy and the springs high. Is there a lot of trail damage in Pisgah/DuPont?
    Everything appears to be super localized. Saw plenty of bikes in the vicinity of Bent Creek today while I was running errands. No idea if those folks stayed on gravel, or ventured onto the trails.

    Of course GRGL is trashed. Dupont probably hit a good bit harder than Bent Creek. Other spots in Pisgah will vary.

    Take a look at these precip history maps. These will give you an idea of areas hit harder or not.

    The view this should bring up is the 7 day precip totals, but you can switch the time interval to 24hr, 14 day, or 30 day. Dupont is certainly in one of the harder hit areas. Areas of Pisgah forest are hit-or-miss. Some have been dumped on. Others have not. My house has received a good bit less rainfall than many of the trails have. The pattern for me has been to get maybe half an hour to an hour of somewhat light rain during daylight hours. Maybe more overnight. But I can see that the mtns to the south and west of me have been wringing a decent bit of moisture out of the clouds before they get to me. I'm certainly in a rainshadow in the current weather pattern. Me? I'm staying off the trails for a bit. It's not like I don't have other things going on that I need to work on.

    https://water.weather.gov/precip/ind...domain=current

  13. #13
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    Late spring, summer, and early fall in the southeast is just going to be rainy in the afternoon. It's pretty consistent in that the size, location, speed, and lifespan of the storms is inconsistent, forecasting any of the above is near impossible the majority of the time especially in the mountains.

    It's a bit easier in winter because you have so many frontal storms that are well formed and stay that way well in advance of reaching us, whereas these summer storms just pop up and go away very quickly. You can pretty much guarantee we're gonna have them almost every day between now and October, but their size and where they hit will be really hard to know in advance, you could get super lucky and be the only person that doesn't get rained on in the forest or you could be in the only place where a storm hits, it's impossible to know in advance.

    This is in contrast to those associated with larger weather systems, which cover a much larger area and tend to last a lot longer, but are easier to predict.

    I was watching the radar the day of the GRGL storm, the storms seemed to cover Asheville all the way through Mills River and Fletcher, then the one over Saluda was just a small, isolated storm that wouldn't quit or dissipate. It didn't look like much was hitting Brevard. If you watched it today, there was a fairly large group of storms that moved from west to east at a fairly quick pace, but dropped a lot of rain quickly and covered a fairly large area, but they were still a series of isolated storms.

    These summer storms will come and go, they can't be avoided, and seeing a forecast of all rain for 7 days is not telling the entire story. That's why it's usually better to read forecasts that have a discussion and explain what type of storm activity to expect, like NWS or Ray's Weather. As a general rule, though, I just prepare to be potentially rained on after 2-3p even if the skies are blue. If you are worried about it, then the best advice is to have everyone in the bar by 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Are people supposed to wait for a week of dry weather? It looks like we are in a typical summer pattern now, with an afternoon storm of shower every other day.
    No, although last week's rain was pretty dramatic, the trails were fine, like they always are. Almost every time I see a post like this, I go ride later on and trails are fine. My suggestion is to focus on learning areas of the forest that drain well, have surfaces that are ok to ride wet, or are exposed to more sunlight and spend less time worrying about whether someone on the internet thinks you should be out riding or not.

    I will admit that the rain middle-end of last week was a bit more significant than normal, though, and could have created a problem on some trails, but it was a pretty consistent, steady amount of rain for a long period of time, which isn't the same thing as what you see in the normal afternoon activity.

  14. #14
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    I'd have to agree with the general consensus here; last week was unusual, since then the summer rain pattern has ruled. Ride with care.
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    I rode yesterday in the North Pisgah area. If you are strategic with your choice of trails, conditions are good...aka stay away from creekside and clay based trails and stay on technical ridgeline trails.

  16. #16
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    Hi guys,
    Can you shed some light on typical seasonal weather patterns? We're anticipating spending quite a bit more time in WNC and want to know what we'e in for. Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gasper View Post
    Hi guys,
    Can you shed some light on typical seasonal weather patterns? We're anticipating spending quite a bit more time in WNC and want to know what we'e in for. Thanks!
    Summer: Hot, humid, wet
    Fall: Warm to mild, mostly dry
    Winter: Cold and wet
    Spring: Cool to Warm and wet.

    WNC is a temperate rain forest so expect rain and wet as par for the course. Some years it can be really wet and others really dry

    Warm weather temps usually around 80s and deep winter around the 30s

    Shoulder seasons can give you any and all of the above so you never know. Elevation affects this and you can have wildly different weather in Asheville compared to Mt. Mitchell or Shining Rock.

    Always take a rain jacket...
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  18. #18
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    Rain jacket is on the list, just in case it rains during a race. How are the conditions at warrior creek?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dragracer88 View Post
    Rain jacket is on the list, just in case it rains during a race. How are the conditions at warrior creek?
    You can give them a call at 336-921-3390 for trail info/closures.

  20. #20
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    Kerr Scott trails closed until this weekend. Bummer. Looks like warrior creek is a fun ride. Perfect winding , wide trails to go crazy like Sam in Gamble. Well, maybe not that fast for me as I need to get a feel for new trails first and I'm not PRO yet, until I get enough wins or top 5s. But that all depends on money.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithified View Post
    Trace was shockingly good today. I didn't ride...we cleared corridor for a few hours though. Man that thing gets overgrown.
    Thanks for your work on that and I would concur with your assessment. Trace was one of my favorite trails about 15 years back but then the erosion gullies started developing and it was kind of sketchy. Seems like the bottom of the gullies have now flattened out enough to be a good tread again which is awesome because the Trace/Wash Creek/Wash Creek Rd/Spencer's/Trace back to BRP is a great evening loop. Loving all the small drops.

  22. #22
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    Thanks, I appreciate the info!

  23. #23
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    I was really surprised Trace didn't rut out more at the top. Last year, when we had rainfall like this, it was badly eroded at the top and the rut was opened back up again. It almost looks like some work was done after that short rock pile near the top, because that's where I remember it getting funky last year.

  24. #24
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    Black Buckwheat Bennett....hero dirt

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    Polk County asking voluntary evac for low lying areas by Sunday evening:

    Polk County Government recommending voluntary evacuation ahead of storm | Polk County government news

  26. #26
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    Talk about stress. Even more so if any racers are in polk county. Hotels aren't cheap.

  27. #27
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    Ride in the rain...don't wait till it stops.

  28. #28
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    Current 5 day forecast as of today. Riding in a little rain, esp around here, is not much of a problem. But when you start getting into this territory, probably best to get your riding before the rain, or wait until things clear up after.

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  29. #29
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    I agree with karthur and Harold. Why wait until ideal dry conditions? Riding in slick conditions or even just slightly muddy trails builds skill. I know I don't have time to wait for ideal conditions. Unless your nearest trail is closed, or you don't want to travel to ride, I see no reason why you need to wait.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Current 5 day forecast as of today. Riding in a little rain, esp around here, is not much of a problem. But when you start getting into this territory, probably best to get your riding before the rain, or wait until things clear up after.

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  31. #31
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    ^ You are either a recreational rider or your trails are closed. Again; riding in less than ideal conditions builds skill. Unless you are afraid to deal with hooking (Getting sideways) and spinning your tire.

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    [delete]
    Last edited by Lithified; 05-26-2018 at 04:53 PM.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragracer88 View Post
    ^ You are either a recreational rider or your trails are closed. Again; riding in less than ideal conditions builds skill. Unless you are afraid to deal with hooking (Getting sideways) and spinning your tire.
    I don't care who you are, or how much leeway others might give you for your assholery elsewhere, but this is terrible advice. There absolutely ARE conditions under which it is bad form and irresponsible to be riding. That varies from trail to trail, the soil conditions, and the geology. Regardless, there are obvious signs that your riding may be damaging the trail. A little slippery? Whatever. Small patches of occasional mud? Probably not a big deal. Extended mud bogs where you leave deep ruts? Ride elsewhere or stay home. Bringing home substantial amounts of mud on your bike after your ride? Ride elsewhere or stay home.

    If a storm drops 4-5 inches of rain on the trails in a short amount of time? Give the trails a break so they'll continue to be in good shape. Volunteers are going to have their hands full repairing lots of trails that have suffered extensive damage for awhile. Don't be a dick and add to that workload.

    Half an inch of rain after a lengthy dry spell? Hero dirt.

    The vast majority of the trails we ride are on PUBLIC land and we owe it to yourselves and to other riders to respect that public resource and behave in a manner that preserves access and quality for the future. Want to thrash the slop? Go find somewhere private where they are absolutely fine with that. Windrock, AFAIK, is fair game.

    Some places have more wiggle room/gray area than others. Better stay off of clay-based midwestern trails for weeks after a 4" rainstorm in the springtime. Here in WNC, we have a good bit more gray area, but we still need to be mindful because WNC is a destination for people all over the country and those visitors are going to have less respect for our trails than locals SHOULD. As locals, we need to set a good example to make sure our trails stay rad and continue to attract riders from elsewhere. In the end, it affects people's livelihoods. Tourism (and specifically, mtb tourism) is a major contributor to the local economy, and there's a lot of competition out there for rad trails. It's getting easier and easier for riders to choose to ride somewhere else, and spend their money somewhere else.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragracer88 View Post
    I agree with karthur and Harold. Why wait until ideal dry conditions? Riding in slick conditions or even just slightly muddy trails builds skill. I know I don't have time to wait for ideal conditions. Unless your nearest trail is closed, or you don't want to travel to ride, I see no reason why you need to wait.
    You took my point VERY incorrectly.

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    I just got back from Dupont/Pisgah today from what was supposed to have been a 4 day mtb weekend. We drove up Friday morning to Dupont and we had rain all the way to Cedar Mountain. Once we unloaded our gear into the cabin we sat and watched the rain fall till 3:00 p.m. At that point we headed to Brevard to eat dinner since we couldn't cook outside at camp. Once in Brevard, the rain was still coming down. Went by the Hub to look around and talked to a few of the shop guys. The bikes coming into the shop were covered in mud. The guys I was talking to just shook their heads. I asked them what they thought, and they replied "who is riding in this mess" Believe me, I wanted to ride just as much as the next guy, but I've got too much respect for the trails and the people who put in the effort to keep them up. It rained all through the night at Cedar Mountain. We packed up at 9:00 a.m. and headed home.

    As for assracer88, he's the type of rider that has no clue.
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    Stony Fork Rd. from Dillingham to Craggy Gardens is still gated and a great climb/descent. Neverending Rd. really never ends. You could probably get away with whatever road climbs up to Douglas Falls and come down Bearpen. Would definitely avoid Staire Creek though.

  37. #37
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    Looking like another sunny weekend coming up, after a shit ton of rain (nope, this isn't normal even for our temperate rainforest). So please stay off our delicate trails and get to know your gravel bike better.
    Pisgah Forest NC

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by FatTireGoose View Post
    Looking like another sunny weekend coming up, after a shit ton of rain (nope, this isn't normal even for our temperate rainforest). So please stay off our delicate trails and get to know your gravel bike better.
    Lol. The gate keeper has spoken. Just be smart and plan accordingly.


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  39. #39
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    The rate of rainfall out of the latest isn't so bad. Feels to me like some stuff will probably be GTG over the weekend, at least.

    I won't be riding IN the rain this week, but that realistically has more to do with opportunity than anything.

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  40. #40
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    FatTireGoose, I can't afford to wait. It's either ride slick, muddy conditions for one or two more practice runs or end up racing the Enduro with just the practice I've done.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragracer88 View Post
    FatTireGoose, I can't afford to wait. It's either ride slick, muddy conditions for one or two more practice runs or end up racing the Enduro with just the practice I've done.
    That's fine, just join Pisgah Area Sorba and come help us fix all the damage you'll do.
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by FatTireGoose View Post
    That's fine, just join Pisgah Area Sorba and come help us fix all the damage you'll do.
    Would PAS ever do a impromptu work day when we have these mega-rain events?

    Seems like a good time to get local riders working together while the trails are too nasty to ride... simple stuff like clearing drains, cutting back the corridor, etc...

    and then you can also publicly shame everyone you see out riding when they ought to know better... public shaming is grossly under-rated haha... win/win!
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjopickin View Post
    Would PAS ever do a impromptu work day when we have these mega-rain events?

    Seems like a good time to get local riders working together while the trails are too nasty to ride... simple stuff like clearing drains, cutting back the corridor, etc...

    and then you can also publicly shame everyone you see out riding when they ought to know better... public shaming is grossly under-rated haha... win/win!
    Yep, shaking your head (or better yet your finger) at the thoughtless riders as they pass by in the mud you're trying to shape. As gratifying as that would be, I much prefer when thankful riders pass by on a sunny day and say thank you for your work.
    Pisgah Forest NC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjopickin View Post
    Would PAS ever do a impromptu work day when we have these mega-rain events?

    Seems like a good time to get local riders working together while the trails are too nasty to ride... simple stuff like clearing drains, cutting back the corridor, etc...

    and then you can also publicly shame everyone you see out riding when they ought to know better... public shaming is grossly under-rated haha... win/win!
    Perhaps a more effective solution (working on trails in the mud/slop would...suck) would be akin to the Green River work weekend June 9-10. Trails get hammered by biblical rains, so let's have a shindig and work on trails for a couple days. Get some food and sponsors and camping and have fun and give back.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithified View Post
    Perhaps a more effective solution (working on trails in the mud/slop would...suck) would be akin to the Green River work weekend June 9-10. Trails get hammered by biblical rains, so let's have a shindig and work on trails for a couple days. Get some food and sponsors and camping and have fun and give back.
    Sounds good... and then we can publicly shame people after the cookout?

    Basically just let me know when/where to show up for the public shaming and ostracizing of other riders and I'll be there. I have a whole box of slowly rotting produce that needs to get thrown at someone ASAP!
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  46. #46
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    It's just been reported all trails in DuPont are closed until further notice.
    So there...
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  47. #47
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    Add Bent Creek to the closed trails list.


    "Pisgah Forest, NC - May 29, 2018 - Due to the effects of recent prolonged heavy rains and heavy visitation, the Pisgah National Forest will temporarily close the trails within the Bent Creek Experimental Forest starting today through at least Friday, June 1.

    "We've had some pretty bad soil erosion so far and we need the public's help to protect these trails by staying off them when they're this vulnerable to damage," said District Ranger Dave Casey. He added "It will take a few days for the trails to dry out and stabilize before they can handle the number of visitors we usually see in Bent Creek."

    Temporary trail closures related to weather are a part of maintaining a sustainable trail system. Trail users can cause long term damage to wet trails, often rendering water diversion structures ineffective and accidentally widening trails by going around puddled water. These conditions can contribute to increased erosion and sedimentation to streams.

    Forest roads and paved routes are more able to withstand bike and foot traffic at this time. Drivers, however, should take care not to create ruts on gravel roads."

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by FatTireGoose View Post
    That's fine, just join Pisgah Area Sorba and come help us fix all the damage you'll do.
    Who will fix the damage SORBA did to lower Ingles?
    Last edited by jamatt; 05-29-2018 at 06:45 PM.

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    I hope they station a ranger at Rice Pinnacle and Ledford this coming Saturday... It's going to be a tourist free for all as soon as we get one nice day without Thunderstorms. Same goes for Dupont.

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    Local rain gauge (Saluda) is at 21" for the month of May. Seriously.

    That is the average annual rainfall for San Francisco. It's more rain than Spokane or Honolulu. It's +/- 50% of annual rainfall for Seattle and Portland.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithified View Post
    Local rain gauge (Saluda) is at 21" for the month of May. Seriously.

    That is the average annual rainfall for San Francisco. It's more rain than Spokane or Honolulu. It's +/- 50% of annual rainfall for Seattle and Portland.
    Good lawd that’s a lotta rain.


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    17 days so far this month have had rain... Make it stop holy crap.

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    Models suggest my house got between 8-10 inches of rain in the past 30 days. Nearest weather station is a few miles away at a substantially lower elevation so I can't really go by that. Eventually, I am going to get a decent weather station setup.

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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by FatTireGoose View Post
    It's just been reported all trails in DuPont are closed until further notice.
    So there...
    Where is the best place to check trail status for DuPont and Bent Creek? I haven't been able to find a trail status website.

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    This was posted on the Upstate Sorba fb page:

    Due to the effects of recent prolonged heavy rains and heavy visitation, the Pisgah National Forest will temporarily close the trails within the Bent Creek Experimental Forest starting today through at least this Friday, June 1.

    "We've had some pretty bad soil erosion so far and we need the public's help to protect these trails by staying off them when they're this vulnerable to damage," said District Ranger Dave Casey. "It will take a few days for the trails to dry out and stabilize before they can handle the number of visitors we usually see in Bent Creek."

    Temporary trail closures related to weather are a part of maintaining a sustainable trail system. Trail users can cause long term damage to wet trails, often rendering water diversion structures ineffective and accidentally widening trails by going around puddled water. These conditions can contribute to increased erosion and sedimentation to streams.

    Forest roads and paved routes are more able to withstand bike and foot traffic at this time. Drivers, however, should take care not to create ruts on gravel roads.


    I also saw a similar notice for Pisgah and Dupont, but can't find the source again.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by AOK View Post
    Where is the best place to check trail status for DuPont and Bent Creek? I haven't been able to find a trail status website.
    Nothing in particular I'm aware of. There's the general FS notices page (website/RSS feed) but the Bent Creek trail closure isn't listed there (yet). PAS and the shops I follow on Facebook have been very good about getting these notices out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AOK View Post
    Where is the best place to check trail status for DuPont and Bent Creek? I haven't been able to find a trail status website.
    Unlike other trail systems that regularly close/open, neither of these close particularly often except in extreme circumstances, so there isn't a dedicated page to go check the status. I think the only other time I've seen either close in the last 12 months was due to a large amount of snowfall, a pretty considerable thaw, later followed by rain. In other words, they don't close enough for there to be a dedicated site to check.

    Your best bet would be to follow Pisgah SORBA, NC USFS, and Friends of DuPont, they'll post openings/closures in the rare case either of them closes.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by AOK View Post
    Where is the best place to check trail status for DuPont and Bent Creek? I haven't been able to find a trail status website.
    Also worth noting that both Trailforks and MTBProject allow users to update trail status for typical day-to-day conditions. I don't fet the impression that either tool gets a whole lot of use here, but of any place in the area, I could see it being especially useful at Dupont.

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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by AOK View Post
    Where is the best place to check trail status for DuPont and Bent Creek? I haven't been able to find a trail status website.
    Dupont closure as been extended until at least the 3rd.
    "I ride to clear my head, my head is clearer when I'm riding SS. Therefore, I choose to ride SS."~ Fullrange Drew

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by nitrousjunky View Post
    Dupont closure as been extended until at least the 3rd.
    Thanks for the info. I am going to be in WNC early next week and I am hoping something will be in good enough shape to ride.

    Not surprised at the extended closures. I am in North GA and our trails are a mess from daily thunderstorms the past week or two. Sounds like y’all are getting the same except you also had weeks of heavy rain prior to this.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by AOK View Post
    Thanks for the info. I am going to be in WNC early next week and I am hoping something will be in good enough shape to ride.

    Not surprised at the extended closures. I am in North GA and our trails are a mess from daily thunderstorms the past week or two. Sounds like y’all are getting the same except you also had weeks of heavy rain prior to this.
    Something should be rideable if the rain lays low for the weekend. Just be flexible and be prepared to bail to gravel in case you choose wrong.

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    Reports I hear are that Bracken, Spencer, Trace, and Pilot are all good (not sure anyone doubted that last one). I did hear some folks say Bear Branch was a mess, but not sure that's really a surprise, either.

    I'd suspect that anything that drains equally well as those or has similar trail surface will be fine.

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    I'm sure you guys are aware but Kitsuma is in bad shape. They pushed the Enduro to August 11th.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Brad View Post
    I'm sure you guys are aware but Kitsuma is in bad shape. They pushed the Enduro to August 11th.
    ...and I believe some of Mill Creek Rd slid down onto the Greenway.

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    Got first hand reports today of rad conditions on Pilot, Buckwheeeeat, and Bennett today.

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  66. #66
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    Yeah. A bit disappointed my race was postponed today. But had fun at Beech Mountain instead,

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    New Spencer and Fletcher running great yesterday. Trace also awesome. I'd think with the lack of weekend rain and forecast this week....we are in full shred season.....

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    Laurel-Pilot was strawberry jammin yesterday. Probably the best I’ve seen it aside from a big mud hole after the hike-a-bike...
    Thanks for the trail work on Laurel. Those rock moves were riding smooth brother. 👍
    On your left!

  69. #69
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    FYI-


    "Good News! The DuPont Forest single-track trails are now open! There are few trail closures still in effect including:

    Spur to base of High Falls
    Wintergreen Trail
    Little River Trail
    Staircase at Triple Falls (should reopen tomorrow)

    Thank you for helping us spread the word and protect our trails! Jason Guidry, Forest Supervisor"
    "I ride to clear my head, my head is clearer when I'm riding SS. Therefore, I choose to ride SS."~ Fullrange Drew

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