Bent Creek Exp. - Describe what your ideal trail would be for this trail system.- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Listen! Bent Creek Exp. - Describe what your ideal trail would be for this trail system.


    Include a short description of what your ideal trail would be in the Bent Creek Experimental Forest. Of course this is each persons opinion and no ridicule for ones idea is needed. But all opinions are welcome. If your opinion is the same as someone else's opinion please copy it into your post. (An opinion is an opinion there is no right or wrong everyone is entitled to their own so there is no need to say why it is a bad or good idea.)

    For Example:

    I would enjoy all the trails connecting to each other with the least minimal fire road usage.
    Please include more technical trails, for example more rocks in the trail, etc. Don't cut out trees to accommodate the trail. The trail should go around the trees.
    Last edited by Logover; 01-03-2012 at 03:40 PM.
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  2. #2
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    I would like to see a trail connecting the end of Greenslick/Sidehill to the top of Lower Sidehill. I find the gravel down/up to be annoying.

  3. #3
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    Comment from Facebook

    smooth flowing down hill with jumps and banked turns.
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  4. #4
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    I'd like to see new trails developed on the north side of ingles field gap
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  5. #5
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    I love the trails the way they are at Bent Creek. We, as mountain bikers are so blessed to have so many options. The Creek is close by and it's where I usually ride, but if I want more of a challenge PNF is just as close and with hundreds of miles to ride the options are unlimited.If there were changes to be made it might be that some trails are designated for use like Tsali does, where bikes and horses alternate days. Or maybe directional trails like Ingles Field Gap and Little Hickory become downhill only. I'd like to see hunting stopped at The Creek because it is used by so many others that I think accidents are going to happen sooner or later and that will reflect on all users.
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  6. #6
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    Something exactly like A-Line at Whistler would work really well!
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  7. #7
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    I'd love to see a trail that parallels shut-in from bent creek gap and follows the ridge line to south ridge/top of explorer.
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  8. #8
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    A trail with some light freeride stuff would be nice also. Jumps log rides,drops etc
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  9. #9
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    this on every trail

    Quote Originally Posted by Logover View Post
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    A trail with some light freeride stuff would be nice also. Jumps log rides,drops etc

  10. #10
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    Comment from Facebook

    A trail that parallels the gravel road from the base of greens lick down to lower sidehill
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  11. #11
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    How about a trail from bottom of greens lick to lower side hill instead of ridding down the gravel road?
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  12. #12
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    I think With All the trails out there in the area (PNF,DSF, & BC) there is not a lot lacking. Except something like FATS and some free ride stuff. Agreed Greenslick would be nice if it were downhill only. Ditto on some more connecting trails so as not to ride so many fire roads. Also a big flipping ramp into the lake. Maybe some skineys too.

    Just for fun put a Pub at the top of Greenslick. I think it would help cut down on injuries.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senor StrongBad View Post
    I think With All the trails out there in the area (PNF,DSF, & BC) there is not a lot lacking. Except something like FATS and some free ride stuff. Agreed Greenslick would be nice if it were downhill only. Ditto on some more connecting trails so as not to ride so many fire roads. Also a big flipping ramp into the lake. Maybe some skineys too.

    Just for fun put a Pub at the top of Greenslick. I think it would help cut down on injuries.
    not a pub, it needs a tiki bar

  14. #14
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    It looks like folks are interested in a trail from bottom of Greens Lick to Lower Side, so am I. This has been suggested for many years, if the FS is interested in seeing this at this point, it would be the place to start.

    Bent Creek lost a lot of it's character when all the connecters were 86ed and Sidehill got paved over. When I ride BC with people not from around here, the comments are always that it's a fun place to ride but there is a whole lot of gravel road. Anything that would help bypass the roads, give users options, and get people (joggers and hikers too) spread out more would help.

    I'd like to see a plan that includes:
    - The fabled Greens Lick-to-Lower Sidehill trail
    - A trail from Ledford TH to someplace near the top of Red Dirt/Boyd Branch
    - A trail from Upper Explorer to the end of South Ridge
    - A rebuilt Upper-to-Lower, including the continuation that went out to BC Gap Rd.
    - Rebuilt trails that have been obliterated like all the Broccoli shortcuts and the trails that went by all the backyards.

    Most of these already have the course and bed, they just need to be cleaned up and intelligently worked.
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  15. #15
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    I personally would not want to see an overabundance of human built features made from imported materials. A specific trail or area with said would be great and any features using natural terrain and/or materials are great, but I ride in the woods to be in woods and don't want to see even more human impact when I'm there.

    Anyone who is very passionate about these kinds of wishlists should consider attending Woodman's free trail work seminar so you can understand what goes into actually seeing major trail changes happen.

    Mike

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    I personally would not want to see an overabundance of human built features made from imported materials. A specific trail or area with said would be great and any features using natural terrain and/or materials are great, but I ride in the woods to be in woods and don't want to see even more human impact when I'm there.

    Anyone who is very passionate about these kinds of wishlists should consider attending Woodman's free trail work seminar so you can understand what goes into actually seeing major trail changes happen.

    Mike
    Link to seminar to RSVP

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  17. #17
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    My first thought too: "I would like to see a trail connecting the end of Greenslick/Sidehill to the top of Lower Sidehill."

    I recall that there was a discussion about re-opening an existing old road bed a few years ago to eliminate the gravel road and connect in to the lower section of Side Hill, but do not remember why the possibility of clearing it was abandoned. Did it cut through a research plot?

    (Will look for old notes)
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  18. #18
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    it would make sense to add more doubles/table tops to Greenslick... at least as options... and improve the berms. for the other trails, maybe integrating some more "natural" jumps and drops, etc...
    i need to develop my crashing skills...

  19. #19
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    Since we are requesting the "ideal trail"...

    How about a loooooong section of well laid bench from Yellow Gap to the hard corner on BC Rd....then across and down to South Ridge Rd...

    It would basically complete the circumnavigation option...

  20. #20
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    A comment from Facebook

    More advanced technical riding, there are too many trails have have become "groomed" for the every other weekend rider. Even Greens lick has become just an intermediate trail.
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  21. #21
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    A comment from Facebook

    I agree with person above. The persistent "dumbing down" of BCs trails has decreased my enjoyment of the BC trail network. We need trails at BC to challenge all levels of riders not just beginners.
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  22. #22
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    Additional info about comments.

    there were 5 others that agrees with various comments from Facebook above.
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  23. #23
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    Something with some jumps and berms and maybe a few gap/drop things would be nice. All the public land we have access to in western NC and there are no trails that cater to people that like that sort of thing. Greens Lick was cool for minute until it all got numbed down. I think that there are enough XC type trails to keep that particular style of rider busy for a long time and that gearing every single trail in western NC to that style of riding is a little selfish.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logover View Post
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    Something with some jumps and berms and maybe a few gap/drop things would be nice. All the public land we have access to in western NC and there are no trails that cater to people that like that sort of thing. Greens Lick was cool for minute until it all got numbed down. I think that there are enough XC type trails to keep that particular style of rider busy for a long time and that gearing every single trail in western NC to that style of riding is a little selfish.
    Oh brother. Please keep posting these, I'm freakin' dying! All these morans want someone to make Bent Creek into Whistler for them. ZOMG Awesome!
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by earl06 View Post
    Oh brother. Please keep posting these, I'm freakin' dying! All these morans want someone to make Bent Creek into Whistler for them. ZOMG Awesome!
    Dude you beat me to it! This thread has been killing me since it started.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by earl06 View Post
    Oh brother. Please keep posting these, I'm freakin' dying! All these morans want someone to make Bent Creek into Whistler for them. ZOMG Awesome!
    I fail to see how wanting a more aggressive style of riding complete with jumps and berm turns in Bent Creek makes someone a moron. The point of these treads are in fact to post opinions for the ideal trail system in each of our most popular ride venues and folks are doing just that (posting their opinions). I think Bent Creek is a good location for one or two trails built to meet the needs of riders looking for something a "little bigger".

    The use in BC is huge and user conflict would be an issue, but it could be dealt with. Funny that user conflict starts here on MTBR within our own community long before we hit the trails and have conflicts with other user groups.

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    1.Bent Creek is an experimental forest and has been since the 30's or so. The USFS has used the area for much research including timber cutting methods, oak re-generation etc.

    Recreation is much more of a part of what the USFS does now as is witnessed by the parting comments of the current Pisgah Forest Supervisor Mary Sue H. Why not use Bent Creek as as an educational and experimental forest for trails and managing recreation? Different trail techniques that could be applied on other forest trail systems throughout the SE and other places that have similar eco-systems.

    2. Develop some all weather single track trails on important connectors giving trail users options for single track even when the weather is bad. The techniques they have employed in other wet climates such as Scotland and Wales would be implemented in BC and would enhance the user experience and provide for more durable trails.

    3. More elevated wood structures to ride on. My friend Mike Brown does not like these as he wants to go into the forest to escape, but many BC problems could be mitigated by use of elevated timber trails and many would enjoy these. I just see them as a solution to real problems and if trails can not be moved (due to cultural resource issues) then we need many tools in our bag.

    4. Design and build a really cool kids trail and skills learning area near the campground.The site where they dumped all the soil from dredging the lake a few years back is perfect. Lots to work with there and easy for kids and families to ride in from anywhere in the campground. Make this kid friendly and just imagine how many would use this whether staying in the campground or not. Opportunity for the following here: Pump track, perimeter loop with rollers and berms and mini table tops, wood features to teach kids and novice riders about riding bridges and boardwalks, rock gardens and more. I have scoped this area and it is prime. No environmental concerns either, they just dumped a buch of soil that came from the lake there. No T+E species or cultural resource issues, the EA they did for the dredging project covered this issues. Also, this falls within the "developed recreation area" known as the campground and out of the control of the experimental forest staff. See photos:
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    More photos of the potential site for something really cool....
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    I fail to see how wanting a more aggressive style of riding complete with jumps and berm turns in Bent Creek makes someone a moron. The point of these treads are in fact to post opinions for the ideal trail system in each of our most popular ride venues and folks are doing just that (posting their opinions). I think Bent Creek is a good location for one or two trails built to meet the needs of riders looking for something a "little bigger".

    The use in BC is huge and user conflict would be an issue, but it could be dealt with. Funny that user conflict starts here on MTBR within our own community long before we hit the trails and have conflicts with other user groups.

    Woody I am all for a wish list of things to build out at Bent Creek(or Dupont or Pisgah) but this is Bent Creek. Let me say that again. It is Bent Creek! Now don't get wrong I love BC, I live 4 miles from it and consider it quite literally my backyard. But come on, legal free ride trails in the Creek and that is seriously what is most important to some of the BC faithful. Sorry I have to just laugh. Having several full seasons of trail volunteering out there and getting to know a fraction of the USFS's red tape has opened my eyes to what little possibilities we have of ever building new legal bike trails in Pisgah. Hell I just hope we get to keep access to some of our current trails. You may know something I don't?! Perhaps with the changing of the guard in the USFS Pisgah arena there will be a sliver of optimisim in regards to recreation and mtb in particular.

    Guess my biggest issue is we want to expand or add trails to Bent Creek (and Pisgah and Dupont) but we are hard pressed to maintain the ones the mountain biking community has already been entrusted with. Lets use that as our selling point to the USFS on building new trails and see how far that gets us! "Hi Ranger Ibarguen we the mtbing community would like to build some new trails in Bent Creek and Pisgah. Oh sorry we can't maintain the ones we have now but it sure would be nice to add some more to the inventory because we are tired of all the hundreds of miles of existing trails getting dumbed down by volunteers! ". Fu*k I can just hear them laughing now!

    In all honesty though Woody thanks for all your input on MTBR. I seriously learn more about our areas trails from your posts than any other resource out there. Looking forward to your trail workshop. Greg

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by snototter
    I just hope we get to keep access to some of our current trails.
    Well said
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  31. #31
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    Wood,

    I love your idea of developing that eyesore next to the campground into something other than a mudpit...but, would utilizing that land fall under the auspices of the campground folks themselves? I've been traipsing around BC for a bit over 30 years now and there has always been a bit of fuzziness on the multiple governing bodies that control the different pieces of ground in there...Dept of AG for some, Dept of Interior for some, NC Schools for another...who controls that mud?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jager66 View Post
    Wood,

    I love your idea of developing that eyesore next to the campground into something other than a mudpit...but, would utilizing that land fall under the auspices of the campground folks themselves? I've been traipsing around BC for a bit over 30 years now and there has always been a bit of fuzziness on the multiple governing bodies that control the different pieces of ground in there...Dept of AG for some, Dept of Interior for some, NC Schools for another...who controls that mud?
    You and I own the mud (along with all other US citizens). The campground is owned by the USFS, but a contractor concession runs it (Cradle of Forestry, a non-profit).

    Pisgah district manages the recreation in the developed recreation area including controlling the swimming beach. If they wanted to see this proposed development, then it would happen.

    My idea is make the proposal so they could not say no. Saying no to kids having fun in the National Forest, that would be like saying no Xmas this year.

    I really think we could pull this off if folks were willing to roll up sleeves and work for it.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    You and I own the mud (along with all other US citizens). The campground is owned by the USFS, but a contractor concession runs it (Cradle of Forestry, a non-profit).

    Pisgah district manages the recreation in the developed recreation area including controlling the swimming beach. If they wanted to see this proposed development, then it would happen.

    My idea is make the proposal so they could not say no. Saying no to kids having fun in the National Forest, that would be like saying no Xmas this year.

    I really think we could pull this off if folks were willing to roll up sleeves and work for it.
    I agree that if we could make this happen. Just like we could make a DH trail in Pisgah happen if we worked hard enough toward that goal. It is our land and the USFS does work for us. But I ask you this:

    Should this be a priority? Is a kids area and new trails more important to us than keeping currently designated trails open? Would we be happy if we lost 50% of the trails we can currently legally ride but got a kids trail and skills area in return? Snototter made an excellent point. We might want to focus on keeping what we have before we start fighting for other things.
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  34. #34
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    "3. More elevated wood structures to ride on. My friend Mike Brown does not like these as he wants to go into the forest to escape, but many BC problems could be mitigated by use of elevated timber trails and many would enjoy these. I just see them as a solution to real problems and if trails can not be moved (due to cultural resource issues) then we need many tools in our bag. "



    It's not that I'm opposed to elevated wood structures. I just don't want to see them littered along "every" trail. I had an awesome time riding in the West Coast BC several years ago...most of the trails I rode did not have elevated structures, they made use of natural terrain and materials and used elevated structures only in a few areas and/or where they just had to. Using wood structures in that manner and not to just create extra huck lines...that's A-Ok with me, and, again, if there was a freeride area or specific trail, I also think that'd be cool.

    All that said, I agree with s-otter that there's a lot mileage to be covered before we get to anything like any of that.

  35. #35
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    one could make a case that a new trail would help maintain the existing trails. For example if a new trail was developed to be all weather, it would give people something to ride in wet times reducing the load on the other trails. Just an idea

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    I fail to see how wanting a more aggressive style of riding complete with jumps and berm turns in Bent Creek makes someone a moron. The point of these treads are in fact to post opinions for the ideal trail system in each of our most popular ride venues and folks are doing just that (posting their opinions). I think Bent Creek is a good location for one or two trails built to meet the needs of riders looking for something a "little bigger".

    The use in BC is huge and user conflict would be an issue, but it could be dealt with. Funny that user conflict starts here on MTBR within our own community long before we hit the trails and have conflicts with other user groups.
    Ok, here's why they are morans.

    There already are plenty of technical/aggressive riding options in the area, why go through the trouble of manufacturing some at BC?

    Getting a trail like that built would take a lot of political capital, something that the mountain bike community doesn't have an abundance of. Say the FS agrees to something like that. One person getting seriously injured closes it, maybe forever. Then what? There might not be any new trails in our lifetime.

    I would much rather see more mileage open up rather than a small amount of major machine work. Catering to a small amount of trail users that don't have the imagination and skills to ride natural terrain would be foolish.
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  37. #37
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    People just want to fly bikes though the air... There is nothing wrong with that. And sorry but there is very little in the ranger district bent creek and DuPont that allow you to do that. ... And I'm talking about big jumps not the water bars at the bottom of black. It is clear that people want dh/ park type trails. No one wants all the trails to be like that but 1 or 2 out of hundreds in the area would be cool. 1 steep gnar double black trail would be great and a flowy jump trail would really round out the trail system. I love a good xc deathmarch but my heart and most of my riding friends hearts lie in ripping fast dhs with lots of airtime. Even a trail like headlys ( but a little more manicured) in the ranger district woudl be perfect. Every gap jump and drop has a go around and an easier line as well as te big boy stuff.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by earl06 View Post
    Ok, here's why they are morans.

    There already are plenty of technical/aggressive riding options in the area, why go through the trouble of manufacturing some at BC?
    I revised this post. why not discuss it.
    On a side note, it would be great to have a kids skills area and a skills learning area for all users that does not require a long drive to Dupont or Brevard. It also would be great to have more connected trails avoiding fire-road that is a bit more technical than what we have now for a daily use trail. Not everyone has the time to drive from Asheville and back during the week.
    Last edited by Logover; 01-06-2012 at 09:06 AM.
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  39. #39
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    I don't mean this in a bad way, but I can ask what the objective of this thread is specifically? I mean is it just for discussion or a wish list? Or is that input/wish list actually going to be used for something constructive at Bent Creek? Just wondering.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterdogs View Post
    I don't mean this in a bad way, but I can ask what the objective of this thread is specifically? I mean is it just for discussion or a wish list? Or is that input/wish list actually going to be used for something constructive at Bent Creek? Just wondering.
    I was curious to know what others would like out of there trails. I don't think they were ever asked. Should this information provided here lead to something then so be it. I think everyone's minds could be so numb to the status quo they forget to think outside the box and strive for something better.
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  41. #41
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    Build trail specifically for those who volunteer and donate. When people start caring, they'll get what they want.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.F.L. View Post
    Build trail specifically for those who volunteer and donate. When people start caring, they'll get what they want.
    LOL A private trail on public property
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood View Post
    LOL A private trail on public property
    I am not sure that is what the Stickle intended to mean.
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    Quote Originally Posted by supercusty View Post
    People just want to fly bikes though the air... There is nothing wrong with that. And sorry but there is very little in the ranger district bent creek and DuPont that allow you to do that. ... And I'm talking about big jumps not the water bars at the bottom of black. It is clear that people want dh/ park type trails. No one wants all the trails to be like that but 1 or 2 out of hundreds in the area would be cool. 1 steep gnar double black trail would be great and a flowy jump trail would really round out the trail system. I love a good xc deathmarch but my heart and most of my riding friends hearts lie in ripping fast dhs with lots of airtime. Even a trail like headlys ( but a little more manicured) in the ranger district woudl be perfect. Every gap jump and drop has a go around and an easier line as well as te big boy stuff.
    agree with supercrusty, it would be fun to have just 1 or 2 such trails, with go arounds, an easier line, and bigger stuff for all who want to to learn and progress...
    i need to develop my crashing skills...

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    A tailored trail on public property. The more you help out, the better your trail 'fits'.

    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood View Post
    LOL A private trail on public property

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.F.L. View Post
    A tailored trail on public property. The more you help out, the better your trail 'fits'.
    Still doesn't make sense to me and isn't the way trails in National Forests work. Just because I like to do tail whip 360's over 20' gaps doesn't mean I can go out and build them just because I showed up for a work day.

    Good info here:
    http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_...rdb5341754.pdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.F.L. View Post
    A tailored trail on public property. The more you help out, the better your trail 'fits'.
    I think what Stickel means is those who do trail work on PAS trails under the club should dictate what kind of trails are created.

    Driftwood: yes they would need to meet those guidelines you posted, which the way I read them, it could incorporate natural bike features should the trail be designated that way under the correct class of trail.

    On a side note: When advocating for anything should a MTB club or any club consider the opinions of its members before considering opinions from the open public for the type of trails they want? (of course anyone can become a member of any club and do this).

    After that, work with other trail user groups if that is an option and then the NFS.

    Of course there would need to be a volunteer advocate that would pursue all this or the club would need to be rich with fund raising and hire someone.
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    Also here is an example of some brand new trails at Uwharrie National Forest lands.
    I see trail features. Big log ride and lots of rocks!!
    New Bike-Specific Uwharrie Singletrack Open to the Public | International Mountain Bicycling Association

    This article also explains water issues well I think.

    Fifteen Tips for Building Excellent Downhill Trails | International Mountain Bicycling Association
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    Can't find my notes. Who recalls the GL to SH road bed? Z/Ben/Woody?

    http://forums.mtbr.com/north-south-c...ek-431558.html

    Edit: Too funny, I was reading the thread while Ben was also posting his link. BTDW Bump?

    Last edited by M-U-M; 01-06-2012 at 08:36 PM.
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    For a new trail at UWHARRIE there sure is a lot more rocks and roots than Bent Creek.
    Wonder how many rocks were there before the trail was built.
    it is a slow moving video, but it allows you to see just how narrow and technical it is.
    Third video has the most rocks and down hill at about 8:30 forward.







    Video post wrote the following about the trail
    Newly reworking and recutting of trails by Home. I love the Keyauee trail, but I can honestly say that the trails are better than I ever imagined. The trail builders used the terrain to its fullest extent, keeping fun in the equation with rules that allow for proper drainage and minimal erosion. Some of the favorite parts of the trail has remained and has been reworked. Other parts that did not follow IMBA guidelines have been abandoned and newly sections are in place. Overall, around 9 miles of mountain biking bliss. Thank you Ed and all those who participated in doing a terrific job.
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  51. #51
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    On a side note: When advocating for anything should a MTB club or any club consider the opinions of its members before considering opinions from the open public for the type of trails they want? (of course anyone can become a member of any club and do this).
    I would say ideally, yes. But also ideally the advocacy group would have a large and diverse enough membership that the opinions of the members reflect the opinions of the greater community. With regards to PAS* we have to keep in mind that we only have a hundred or so members out of 10,000 or so local mountain bikers. And out of those hundred members there are only a small handful of people who are active at all and those active members, for the most part, seem to be just a group of friends who all agree with each other (with a few exceptions, of course). I understand the point DFL is attempting to make, however; if a group like PAS with a tiny membership wants to expand that membership they might want to try and work to do what the greater community wants in an effort to grow the membership. If the attitude remains "We can do whatever we want because we are the ones doing it" that is only going to turn more people off to the club. I joined PAS because I wanted to have a say in what happens with regards to trail work in Pisgah. To a certain extent I have been able to influence the trail work in a minuscule amount but honestly it is just a few people doing exactly what they want and from reading the sanitizing and dumbing down thread it is clear there are people who do not agree with the work being done. PAS isn't winning new members over with the attitude of "We can do whatever we want because we are the ones doing it". They are turning them off.

    It is going to be in the 60's again today! I'm gonna go ride Bent Creek

    *I realize these are not supposed to be PAS posts as they would never agree to such open and public discussion, but let's face it: PAS is our local advocacy group and no matter how hard we try and pretend otherwise PAS and our response to the USFSinNC trail strategy is the unspoken undercurrent here.
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    PAS current membership is over 200 at this time and rising. And out of the 10,000 you state there 3-4,000 maybe that are local and the rest are from out of town. That would be my guess. Of course there is no real true way to find this out. Don't you think the group of friends you refer to had the friendship formed through PAS, not sure they are the force of eval that you portray them to me. "just" is a powerful suggestion. I also doubt that any MTB club will have the opinions of the greater community. In the clubs I have seen in areas with even greater population than here the members are even smaller than ours. The select individuals that do trail work are the ones that matter most. I am also willing to bet the ones that are members would like to see changes but are discouraged from NFS view on recreation. If there view changes in these meetings things will be different.
    Last edited by Logover; 01-07-2012 at 08:34 AM.
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    IMBA Trail Solutions designed this new trail, and SORBA did the legwork to put together the funding (combination of RTP grants, donation from Tarheel Trailblazers club in Charlotte and a local bank kiccked in some serious coin). Trail construction was performed by Trail Dynamics.

    The area has a lot of naturally occurring surface rock, something Bent Creek really does not have. IMBA guidelines have never said rock can not be present on trails or that trails have to be butter smooth. I worked with the team who wrote the IMBA book and was serving on IMBA Board of Directors at the time these guidelines were developed. Why there is this perception that IMBA says trails have to be smooth and groomed is a mystery to me, a clear misunderstanding of what IMBA has said over the years.

    The upcoming class will have some good info on rock armoring as a solution to trails too steep to be considered sustainable otherwise.

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    I was just being provocative. Some folks bought the wrong bikes for Pisgah and now want to change the trails to match their bikes' abilities. And they want someone else to do the work.

    The fact is that PAS's work benefits the majority of riders. PAS should continue to listen to all and then do what benefits the most people, most efficiently, and within the FS's guidelines. That's not going to please the critics, and that's OK.

    These folks don't seem to get that when I or others go trim briars and clean out drains, there's isn't a freeride or xc way of doing it. We do what's proven to get water off the trail, with limited people and time. It's absurd to think that the current work is changing the nature of our trails

    Everybody wants what they want, when they want it, and without paying for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logover View Post
    I think what Stickel means is those who do trail work on PAS trails under the club should dictate what kind of trails are created.

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    [QUOTE=Logover;8886718]I think what Stickel means is those who do trail work on PAS trails under the club should dictate what kind of trails are created.


    It is extremely rare if PAS or a contracted company has ever "created" trails on USFS land. Can anyone recall a time when a new trail that was purpose built with bikes in mind was cut on USFS land (WNC) besides opening up old road beds?

    Every bit of work that I have been involved with is correcting issues caused by erosion, poor drainage, trail creep, etc. I am not sure how the Greater Pisgah crew decides what trail needs work for a given scheduled workday but I know the Bent Creek crew tries to tackle the areas that are a constant slop hole, major ride around or any other serious trail issue. I assure you I will not waste my time on a section of trail that does not need attention and neither will the rest of the group. Also I know this is going to contradict a majority of the whiners that are constantly moaning about dumbing down trails in BC but all the work we do is constantly discussed on site to try and keep features on the trail to make it more challenging but also satisfying USFS guidelines. The problem is there are very few if any features on old road beds( which is what a vast majority of BC trails are) other than erosion and downed trees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.F.L. View Post
    I was just being provocative. Some folks bought the wrong bikes for Pisgah and now want to change the trails to match their bikes' abilities. And they want someone else to do the work.

    The fact is that PAS's work benefits the majority of riders. PAS should continue to listen to all and then do what benefits the most people, most efficiently, and within the FS's guidelines. That's not going to please the critics, and that's OK.

    These folks don't seem to get that when I or others go trim briars and clean out drains, there's isn't a freeride or xc way of doing it. We do what's proven to get water off the trail, with limited people and time. It's absurd to think that the current work is changing the nature of our trails

    Everybody wants what they want, when they want it, and without paying for it.


    Thank you D.F.L you are spot on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    IMBA Trail Solutions designed this new trail, and SORBA did the legwork to put together the funding (combination of RTP grants, donation from Tarheel Trailblazers club in Charlotte and a local bank kiccked in some serious coin). Trail construction was performed by Trail Dynamics.

    The area has a lot of naturally occurring surface rock, something Bent Creek really does not have. IMBA guidelines have never said rock can not be present on trails or that trails have to be butter smooth. I worked with the team who wrote the IMBA book and was serving on IMBA Board of Directors at the time these guidelines were developed. Why there is this perception that IMBA says trails have to be smooth and groomed is a mystery to me, a clear misunderstanding of what IMBA has said over the years.

    The upcoming class will have some good info on rock armoring as a solution to trails too steep to be considered sustainable otherwise.
    What class traill under the 80 page document for NFS guidelines was Unwarre built with. I am curious to see how they came about of a skinny log ride that long?

    And are these trail classes different from the ones that are already in place from the NFS?
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snototter
    It is extremely rare if PAS or a contracted company has ever "created" trails on USFS land. Can anyone recall a time when a new trail that was purpose built with bikes in mind was cut on USFS land (WNC) besides opening up old road beds?

    Every bit of work that I have been involved with is correcting issues caused by erosion, poor drainage, trail creep, etc. I am not sure how the Greater Pisgah crew decides what trail needs work for a given scheduled workday but I know the Bent Creek crew tries to tackle the areas that are a constant slop hole, major ride around or any other serious trail issue. I assure you I will not waste my time on a section of trail that does not need attention and neither will the rest of the group. Also I know this is going to contradict a majority of the whiners that are constantly moaning about dumbing down trails in BC but all the work we do is constantly discussed on site to try and keep features on the trail to make it more challenging but also satisfying USFS guidelines. The problem is there are very few if any features on old road beds( which is what a vast majority of BC trails are) other than erosion and downed trees.
    Good to hear this is the way the Bent Creek crew approaches trail work . As for the GPTC, of which I am a member, I'll just decline to comment as I don't know the answer.

    And for the record, I actually did ride Bent Creek today (by way of Mills River, of course) and it was a real eye opener. Lots of apparent beginners and very novice riders out which was very good to see. Everyone needs to start somewhere and Bent Creek seems to be providing a great experience for them. And there were still several surprisingly technical spots along the way that kept me on my toes. The trails were in very rough shape, likely due to the freeze/thaw and heavy use. I really felt bad about riding them
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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by pickledog View Post
    This is why PAS is not taken seriously. Carry on with your attitude, it seems to be working so well so far. As long as PAS continues to allow this kind of attitude to be their mouthpiece, they will never be accepted by more than 2% of the mtn bike community. These trails were here before, and will be here long after PAS is gone. Get more people like Driftwood involved in the direction PAS takes, he seems to be the only one who doesn't think he OWNS the forest.
    Yeah, but he sure can weld. Whine and weld.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by pickledog View Post
    This is why PAS is not taken seriously. Carry on with your attitude, it seems to be working so well so far. As long as PAS continues to allow this kind of attitude to be their mouthpiece, they will never be accepted by more than 2% of the mtn bike community. These trails were here before, and will be here long after PAS is gone. Get more people like Driftwood involved in the direction PAS takes, he seems to be the only one who doesn't think he OWNS the forest.
    Wait a second, what do you mean I don't own the forest? Some drunk guy at the Hub sold it to me for two PBRs and half a tube of peanuts! I have a hand written receipt on the back of a soiled coaster. The Pisgah is mine all MINE! I'm going to start charging five bucks a person for everyone who wants to ride Sycamore Cove! Cove Creek is going to be $6.50 and Farlow will be invite only (but you will still have to pay!).

    But really in all seriousness, pickledog, you should join PAS and become involved. The membership and their involvement is what makes the club what it is. If you don't agree with everything PAS does or is about, join and try and work to change it. Come to the next meeting and speak your mind. That is the only way things could ever change.
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  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by pickledog View Post
    This is why PAS is not taken seriously. Carry on with your attitude, it seems to be working so well so far.
    Read everything I wrote.

    And yes, it is working. Things are getting better, even without the assistance of the vast majority of riders in the area. Folks complain that PAS isn't building North Shore and DH trails when their job is to trim brush and empty puddles. Even if you don't get involved, at least learn about the process so that the absurd criticism of PAS can end.

    Or you can keep on condemning PAS and everybody's hard work because I got snarky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pickledog View Post
    Please elaborate as to how things are getting better. Ive seen more complaining about PAS in the last year than all previous years combined. Who is doing this absurd complaining about PAS? The other 98% of the mtnbike community? I'm glad you guys aren't running for office with a 2% approval rating.
    2% approval rating? That is fine if we only have a 2% approval rating lol! We are at least out there trying to make a difference. Please keep up your criticizing of PAS and the folks who are actually making a commitment to maintaining OUR trails! It always gives me a good chuckle and confirms the ignorance that abounds in WNC.

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    Perspective- Try it.

    Quote Originally Posted by earl06 View Post
    Ok, here's why they are morans.
    I think he meant morons?

    There already are plenty of technical/aggressive riding options in the area, why go through the trouble of manufacturing some at BC? Maybe because there is not one solid flow based, jump run in Pisgah/BC/DSF. There is nothing like FATS even. Greens Lick is OK at best and a step in the right direction but misses the mark. Farlow- I have never heard a single person describe it as a flowy jump run. Rocky Ridge, Ridgeline- Flow those and you make horse fodder. Black MTN- Heard of any user conflicts lately? But when you look at Burnt Mtn, there are far less conflicts. Why? Its is largely ridden one way and there are no horses on the main down hill section.

    If even one percent of trails on public land had this option we would have a much better palette of rides to choose from. And frankly I think your statement is short sighted and fear based.


    Getting a trail like that built would take a lot of political capital, something that the mountain bike community doesn't have an abundance of. Say the FS agrees to something like that. One person getting seriously injured closes it, maybe forever. I don't buy it. People kill them selves on USFS land and rarely does it lead to closures. A hunter shoots another so they close the area to hunting? A skier dies in the back country and no skiing? A rock climber takes a whipper and the cliff is closed? What matters is that EMS can extract injured folks with out a lot of time and $$$. Trails get closed when a rider is flying down the trail and comes around a corner, then spooks a horse, who throws and kills a 12 year old girl. That's how we lose trails. I have spooked a horse from 250' up the trail, luckily no little girls died, but I did get an ear full for riding recklessly. Even though I was doing less than 10mph at the time, stopped and dismounted 250' from the horse. Then what? There might not be any new trails in our lifetime. Lets not jump off the deep end with the dooms day mentality.

    It seems like closures come due to trail degradation and user conflicts. Sustainably built user specific trails require less maintenance and can ultimately help to eliminate/decrease user conflicts.

    I would much rather see more mileage open up rather than a small amount of major machine work. Catering to a small amount of trail users that don't have the imagination and skills to ride natural terrain would be foolish.
    I can't believe this final statement, talk about foolish. Catering to a small amount of trail users??? Are you serious? Are you referring to the younger generation, or maybe folks that ride with something other than a hard tail 29er?

    There are natural features. They are
    usually spread out and just off the trail. These get ridden by a myriad of users, that believe it or not, have some imagination and a fine set of skills. What is wrong with wanting to have a series of features in close proximity? Why not incorporate natural and man made features together? Look at how many ski areas have terrain parks. 15 years ago they would pull your pass for the smallest jump. The world is changing, might as well take a look around and gain some perspective.

    You refer to more mileage opening up vs a small amount of machine work. This doesn't even makes sense. Its not either/or. Period. You can maintain what ever type of trail you choose, so can I. Why is Greens Lick abused and one of the most talked about trails in WNC. Oh, its because of the small percentage of people that ride it, no. Ridgeline has a constant line of bikes on it, there are no jumps but it is flowy and horse filled. The forest has more than enough room for some purpose built trails.

    For the most part it comes down to the land manager and what they will allow. If there are flowy/free ride-ish trails on USFS land out west, then they can happen here. And PNF is getting a new sheriff... I personally hope that he comes from an open minded position. I haven't heard any one asking for huge mega jumps and massive drops. If we have a progression flow/free ride trails, then riders can gain skills and learn appropriately. And those that already have the skills can simply enjoy them.

    But time and time again flow trails keep coming up so there must be a demand. My guess is that the "small percentage" of riders (that want some flow/jump type trails) you speak of, is actually a much larger percentage than you expect.


    Yep, we are still on the same team, I just don't agree with you on this subject
    .
    Should you do more trail work?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pickledog View Post
    Please elaborate as to how things are getting better. Ive seen more complaining about PAS in the last year than all previous years combined. Who is doing this absurd complaining about PAS? The other 98% of the mtnbike community? I'm glad you guys aren't running for office with a 2% approval rating.
    I for one have not seen this complaining, can you provide examples?
    I can provide you with facts however which does not equal your 2%

    PAS web site has up to 550 hits per week.
    PAS Facebook has almost 800 likes
    And just how many hits are there on this form about PAS threads. I would say they are the most active.
    Complain all you like but get your facts straight if you want to throw around statistics.

    Now back to our regularly scheduled program. Lets keep this thread on track.
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    I see one person complaining. 1 out of 10,000 you do the math

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    Now back to our regularly scheduled program. Lets keep this thread on track.
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    How about we get back on topic and keep the conversation on what users want to see in Bent Creek and not what we like/dislike about PAS...

    I live in the BC neighborhood and as such know it as well as Clay knows Pisgah (actually, it may be impossible for anyone to know the woods like that). With that said here is what I would like to see:

    1) a connector from Greens Lick to Sidehill. Ideally for me you would have 2 connectors, one that runs from the bottom of greens lick to the bottom of sidehill, and one that would cut off in the middle of greens lick and intersect somewhere along the middle of sidehill.

    2) Any higher up singletrack that would run from near BC gap down to Explorer on the South side and either greens lick or sidehill on the north side. When I am climbing up to BC Gap to head into N Mills, all that land to the left up high looks like it would be sweet. Also, what about the old trail/road bed that continues past greens lick up to the parkway? any chance to gain access to that?

    3) singletrack on the North slope of North Boundary Rd where the logging took place

    4)Boyd Branch to Sidehill connector trail

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    Quote Originally Posted by pickledog View Post
    Is the ignorance what drew you here? I'm sure the native mountain bike community appreciates a PAS board member calling locals ignorant on a public forum. Let me guess, you are a floridiot? Your rhetoric is sure to make a difference.
    Awesome let the name calling begin, Mr.Pickle with 7 post! What did you get banned under another name? Same old sh*t just a different name. :roll eyes:

    Correction I am no longer a board member. Work took precedence over being on the board, just a lowly trail grunt now! But I will defend those who do go the extra mile to care for this areas trails regardless where they are from. Never been to Florida, sorry to disappoint you. Yes there are some ignorant locals but there are also ignorant transplants! Shame on both! Hell at times I am just as ignorant as any but I also make an effort to learn the truth before I spew lame rants about PAS. Of course there is always the good old name calling. Stick to what you know best Pickle!

    Sorry Logover this thread has been hijacked and once again is heading down the wrong path. Greg

  69. #69
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    pickledog has been sent to the corner....

    no more thread jacking from him...FWIW
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    I appreciate and support SORBA and I am not currently a member. I have been to at least a dozen workdays. They have all come off with out a hitch, were well organized, provided quality projects that were necessary, and gave everyone involved what ever aspect of the project they felt they could personally handle. I have usually been able to work on an alternative line that offered a bit more character to the trail.

    This tends to be the only place I hear folks B***H about the organization. The land managers I have personally spoke with sure didn't beat them down, it was quite the opposite. And it seems to be the same few B***hing over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

    So team "Lets Complain" about the one of the best trail advocacy groups in the area, I don't see a valid argument. I for one think that y'all are misguided and border line, well, self destructive at best. Next you will be complaining that MANNA food bank won't deliver the right spam to your house and if they can't get it right they are failures.

    If you don't like SORBA all you have to do is join. Then you can make it what you want it to be. If you have a better alternative lets hear it.

    Again, pickledog and company, unless you are showing up and making a difference or offering a better plan then you are simply tearing us down as a community.


    For the supposed 10,000 mountain bikers. If PAS is 2%, then the whiners and folks complaining seem to be .0002%. It really seems like a few people with multiple user names.

    I for one think that as an organization they are learning, growing and getting better. Not to mention successful.

    I thank all SORBA members, past and present, in all of the different chapters.
    Should you do more trail work?

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bfluid View Post
    I appreciate and support SORBA and I am not currently a member. I have been to at least a dozen workdays. They have all come off with out a hitch, were well organized, provided quality projects that were necessary, and gave everyone involved what ever aspect of the project they felt they could personally handle. I have usually been able to work on an alternative line that offered a bit more character to the trail.

    This tends to be the only place I hear folks B***H about the organization. The land managers I have personally spoke with sure didn't beat them down, it was quite the opposite. And it seems to be the same few B***hing over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

    So team "Lets Complain" about the one of the best trail advocacy groups in the area, I don't see a valid argument. I for one think that y'all are misguided and border line, well, self destructive at best. Next you will be complaining that MANNA food bank won't deliver the right spam to your house and if they can't get it right they are failures.

    If you don't like SORBA all you have to do is join. Then you can make it what you want it to be. If you have a better alternative lets hear it.

    Again, pickledog and company, unless you are showing up and making a difference or offering a better plan then you are simply tearing us down as a community.


    For the supposed 10,000 mountain bikers. If PAS is 2%, then the whiners and folks complaining seem to be .0002%. It really seems like a few people with multiple user names.

    I for one think that as an organization they are learning, growing and getting better. Not to mention successful.

    I thank all SORBA members, past and present, in all of the different chapters.
    You don't get out much, do you?

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    pickledog has been sent to the corner....

    no more thread jacking from him...FWIW
    Why? He hasn't done anything that the pas crowd has not done. Why is it that whenever someone has a strong opinion against pas, they get sent away? No one gets to see the whole picture, just the pas perspective. It's a crock of dung, really. This forum has turned into something full of a bunch of freakin' ninnies. It really is no wonder that the pas numbers are so low. Why can't this organization pull the bike community together to work towards a common goal? I have my theories. Carry on.

  73. #73
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    "spank: Also, what about the old trail/road bed that continues past greens lick up to the parkway? any chance to gain access to that?"

    I wanted to ask about that section too. Wasn't it closed off when they removed the two Heinous fall lines? If you kept going, it dropped out below the bridge on 479 - and I think, it was outside the Parkway limit. I miss it, but was waiting to hear others comments of the route(s) off of Greens. Any notes I would have had are not in the attic, so they may have been lost in the deceased computer.
    Now you're cast of steel and cast aside. Broken dreams maybe, but you haven't died

  74. #74
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    Mum...Heinous was before my time, so i have no knowledge on that but i did wonder where they were.

    A buddy of mine has hike-a-biked that section all the way to the shut in and it sounds like it would be great to turn it back into rideable trail, but i have zero knowledge on the logistics or possibilities to do so. I do love the thought of riding out my door and being on a gravel/singletrack climb (without using FS479) all the way to BC gap though!

  75. #75
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    " Why is it that whenever someone has a strong opinion against pas, they get sent away?"

    Why is every time someone praises PAS work you comment: " you don't get out much"?

    "It really is no wonder that the pas numbers are so low."

    PAS membership is over 200 and growing. Not where it needs to be, but going in the right direction.

    "Why can't this organization pull the bike community together to work towards a common goal?

    Why will you not step up, roll up your sleeves and help this orginization to pull the bike community together and working towards a common goal. Perhpa with your opinions, insight and help PAS could in fact improve and pull in some riders that it may have alienated.


    "I have my theories."

    Please share them. I for one would really like to hear your opinion (and I am being completly honest in saying that).

    PAS is not perfect, not advoacy orginizations is. PAS is run by volunteers doign the best they can. Is there room for improvement, yes. Is it possible that PAS can/should attact a wider base of riders, yes. Should PAS board and inner circle be willling to listin constructive feedback from the mountain biking community, yes. Should they listin to the contsant attack of a few (Moto under many different sign in names) but never really offers any good constructive feedback, hail no. Should they listin to those who show no real interest in helping out?





    -

  76. #76
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    Allow me to retort.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2bfluid View Post
    I can't believe this final statement, talk about foolish. Catering to a small amount of trail users??? Are you serious? Are you referring to the younger generation, or maybe folks that ride with something other than a hard tail 29er?
    I am referring to the thousands of people who ride in the area but didn't post in this thread, or on facebook, who could care less about those kind of trails. You're talking about a small sample size there.

    There are natural features. They are usually spread out and just off the trail. These get ridden by a myriad of users, that believe it or not, have some imagination and a fine set of skills. What is wrong with wanting to have a series of features in close proximity? Why not incorporate natural and man made features together? Look at how many ski areas have terrain parks. 15 years ago they would pull your pass for the smallest jump. The world is changing, might as well take a look around and gain some perspective.
    The only thing wrong with man-made features is that they take time, money and effort to build and maintain. There is not an abundance of any of those things around here. And your argument about terrain parks is flawed, ski areas are for-profit and use terrain parks to attract more visitors. They are a marketing tool. The FS could care less about attracting more mountain bikers to Pisgah.

    You refer to more mileage opening up vs a small amount of machine work. This doesn't even makes sense. Its not either/or. Period. You can maintain what ever type of trail you choose, so can I. Why is Greens Lick abused and one of the most talked about trails in WNC. Oh, its because of the small percentage of people that ride it, no. Ridgeline has a constant line of bikes on it, there are no jumps but it is flowy and horse filled. The forest has more than enough room for some purpose built trails.
    Effectively it is an either/or, unless you have sources of political clout with the FS you're holding back and a load of cash you're willing to throw down, there is a finite amount of trail-building that can take place in a given year. Retreading an old roadbed takes far less effort and requires less environmental impact than dozering something new.

    For the most part it comes down to the land manager and what they will allow. If there are flowy/free ride-ish trails on USFS land out west, then they can happen here. And PNF is getting a new sheriff... I personally hope that he comes from an open minded position. I haven't heard any one asking for huge mega jumps and massive drops. If we have a progression flow/free ride trails, then riders can gain skills and learn appropriately. And those that already have the skills can simply enjoy them.
    I don't know what you consider "out west", but in Colorado, the FS isn't interested in new trails, flowy or otherwise, built by anyone. Other than the touring companies that purchase/lease high-dollar permits, they have no use for bikers. All the flowy/free ride-ish trails (Junction, Fruita, Hartman Rocks, Moab, Gooseberry, et al.) are on land managed by the BLM, who are a joy to deal with comparatively.

    But time and time again flow trails keep coming up so there must be a demand. My guess is that the "small percentage" of riders (that want some flow/jump type trails) you speak of, is actually a much larger percentage than you expect.
    I agree that the subject comes up constantly, but I still say statistically it's not even close to a majority. If it was a large amount of people, a Windrock would have been built here years ago.

    Yep, we are still on the same team, I just don't agree with you on this subject.
    Fair enough.
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  77. #77
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    I received the below email from a rider from FL this week. He was not specific about where he rides when he comes up, but sounded as if he did visit our area on a regular basis. If we are receiving emails from out of town saying thanks for the work, PAS must be doing something right. Thanks to everyone whom helped to make this rider want to come back to our area on a number of visits and inspire him to write.

    I am a Florida resident that loves to ride all of the incredible trails that PAS and your teams spend so much time building and maintaining. As a past High School Band Booster President, I know firsthand how much work finding and recruiting volunteers is. I wanted to take a quick moment to say thank you in the biggest way possible! I truly appreciate your efforts and ALL of the PAS and local volunteer group efforts to support such a wonderful trail system. I pray that my future will afford me the opportunity to have one of my visits to your area fall on a date when you are coordinating a work day so that I can join in. I also dream of someday being able to relocate to your area and become involved as much as possible. In the mean time I continue to donate to IMBA and SORBA/PAS so that at least I can contribute something. I recognize the time commitments and rewards of being a volunteer and hope someday to be a part of your group efforts.

    THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH for ALL that you do for the Pisgah and Asheville Area trail systems!

  78. #78
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    Earl,

    Do you hail from out west? Sounds like you may have some experience working with the BLM. You are correct that they are generally easier to work with, but they still are a federal land managing agency.

    There is flexibility within the FS trails program. You are incorrect to assume that flow trails and other challenging areas are not being built on FS trails out west. To the contrary, there are many examples. I will start another thread here what I have seen in other FS areas out west.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    " Why is it that whenever someone has a strong opinion against pas, they get sent away?"

    Why is every time someone praises PAS work you comment: " you don't get out much"?

    "It really is no wonder that the pas numbers are so low."

    PAS membership is over 200 and growing. Not where it needs to be, but going in the right direction.

    "Why can't this organization pull the bike community together to work towards a common goal?

    Why will you not step up, roll up your sleeves and help this orginization to pull the bike community together and working towards a common goal. Perhpa with your opinions, insight and help PAS could in fact improve and pull in some riders that it may have alienated.


    "I have my theories."

    Please share them. I for one would really like to hear your opinion (and I am being completly honest in saying that).

    PAS is not perfect, not advoacy orginizations is. PAS is run by volunteers doign the best they can. Is there room for improvement, yes. Is it possible that PAS can/should attact a wider base of riders, yes. Should PAS board and inner circle be willling to listin constructive feedback from the mountain biking community, yes. Should they listin to the contsant attack of a few (Moto under many different sign in names) but never really offers any good constructive feedback, hail no. Should they listin to those who show no real interest in helping out?


    Well Woody, do I say that often? If I do maybe it's because they need to get out more and expand their world view. In this guys case, I said that because I hear people bemoaning PAS often and in many different circles. Pretty common really. For some to pretend that all is hunky dory and PAS does not have an identity crisis is insulting. And for the record I was involved and have been off and on for years, before PAS existed. I saw the writing on the wall and no longer wanted deal with them. They show no real interest, from what I can tell, in actually changing, because they think all is well and the "trolls" are the problem. PAS members consistently insult others on this board and have a very pervasive "attitude" that is freaking annoying. They seem to put off more than they attract. Although I certainly take issue, in regards to trail work, PAS biggest problem is their "personality", so to speak. Many, including myself, don't really want to be associated with them. I would be curious to see how many of the 200 members are recent transplants to the area. I personally don't know any long time residents to the area that are. I'm not a hater of people doing good things for a good cause, but I am turned off by this group. And I really do hope that they can one day get it together and create a cohesive group here.


    -

    Well Woody, do I say that often? If I do maybe it's because they need to get out more and expand their world view. In this guys case, I said that because I hear people bemoaning PAS often and in many different circles. Pretty common really. For some to pretend that all is hunky dory and PAS does not have an identity crisis is insulting. And for the record I was involved and have been off and on for years, before PAS existed. I saw the writing on the wall and no longer wanted deal with them. They show no real interest, from what I can tell, in actually changing, because they think all is well and the "trolls" are the problem. PAS members consistently insult others on this board and have a very pervasive "attitude" that is freaking annoying. They seem to put off more than they attract. Although I certainly take issue, in regards to trail work, PAS biggest problem is their "personality", so to speak. Many, including myself, don't really want to be associated with them. I would be curious to see how many of the 200 members are recent transplants to the area. I personally don't know any long time residents to the area that are. I'm not a hater of people doing good things for a good cause, but I am turned off by this group. And I really do hope that they can one day get it together and create a cohesive group here.


    -[/QUOTE]


    Well Woody, do I say that often? If I do maybe it's because they need to get out more and expand their world view. In this guys case, I said that because I hear people bemoaning PAS often and in many different circles. Pretty common really. For some to pretend that all is hunky dory and PAS does not have an identity crisis is insulting. And for the record I was involved and have been off and on for years, before PAS existed. I saw the writing on the wall and no longer wanted deal with them. They show no real interest, from what I can tell, in actually changing, because they think all is well and the "trolls" are the problem. PAS members consistently insult others on this board and have a very pervasive "attitude" that is freaking annoying. They seem to put off more than they attract. Although I certainly take issue, in regards to trail work, PAS biggest problem is their "personality", so to speak. Many, including myself, don't really want to be associated with them. I would be curious to see how many of the 200 members are recent transplants to the area. I personally don't know any long time residents to the area that are. I'm not a hater of people doing good things for a good cause, but I am turned off by this group. And I really do hope that they can one day get it together and create a cohesive group here.


    -[/QUOTE]

  80. #80
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    Triple rainbow?

    I would be curious to see how many of the 200 members are recent transplants to the area.

    Me too. I'd also be curious to know how many former members are not currently "paying members", but contribute when they can between job searches and taking care of their kids or an ill parent.

    Being able to bike ride and socialize is very precious on many levels. I could care less if they've lived here twenty years or twenty days or twenty hours.
    Now you're cast of steel and cast aside. Broken dreams maybe, but you haven't died

  81. #81
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    A triple rainbow!!! Oh my god what does this mean?!?! A triple rainbow!!!!! Seriously, I have no idea what happened there. Oopsie!

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Well Woody, do I say that often? If I do maybe it's because they need to get out more and expand their world view. In this guys case, I said that because I hear people bemoaning PAS often and in many different circles. Pretty common really. For some to pretend that all is hunky dory and PAS does not have an identity crisis is insulting. And for the record I was involved and have been off and on for years, before PAS existed. I saw the writing on the wall and no longer wanted deal with them. They show no real interest, from what I can tell, in actually changing, because they think all is well and the "trolls" are the problem. PAS members consistently insult others on this board and have a very pervasive "attitude" that is freaking annoying. They seem to put off more than they attract. Although I certainly take issue, in regards to trail work, PAS biggest problem is their "personality", so to speak. Many, including myself, don't really want to be associated with them. I would be curious to see how many of the 200 members are recent transplants to the area. I personally don't know any long time residents to the area that are. I'm not a hater of people doing good things for a good cause, but I am turned off by this group. And I really do hope that they can one day get it together and create a cohesive group here.
    So this is about personalities and image? I'm fairly certain PAS is not completely comprised of transplants. No more transplants then the mtn bike population in general. If PAS was all transplants would that make them worse. Why? If you could change PAS what would you change? Be specific.

    Personally I don't agree with you. I don't believe that many people have these kinds of problems with PAS. In fact most everybody I hang with thinks PAS is a very positive group. At least that's what they tell me. I also don't believe PAS has a bad attitude. What it looks like is that you have a bad attitude. I see one guy (you) with a bad attitude. That's really all I see. I'm not trying to sweep this under the rug but that's all I see. Maybe I'm out of touch. Maybe people are too polite to tell me anything negative to my face. If you really think there is a problem, perhaps you could provide some solutions. Please be specific.

  83. #83
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    65,

    Thanks you for the response (x3 ).

    I don't think this is a "locals" vs. "new to the area" issue at all. In fact 2BFluid was born in Hooterville, don't get much more local than that and his post was very supportive of the job PAS is doing.

    While PAS board members (or members of any mountain bike advocacy club) should be welcoming and inviting of new members and the community at large, serving on the board does not nor should it mean each baord member gives up thier right to a personal opinion or who they are as people. In fact, the best non-profit boards are made up of very diverse groups of folks with in fact differring opinions.

    I do belive that PAS and other clubs need to be open to constructive feedback, and perhaps react to it if improvements can be made in the areas of concerns raised through the process.

    Most (if not all) of the critical comments posted here on MTBR have not however been constructive and have lacked any real detail. Mostly: "you suck" kind of tone and it seems predictable that would result in knee-jerk reactions and defensive posturing.

    I do feel some level of break down within the community in terms of more aggressive riding styles vs. more of a XC or trail biking style of rider. Would you agree? This is common in trail advocacy groups. More aggressive riders think clubs are always dumbing down trails and making them less difficult only for the sake of making them easier, when the net goal is more often than not making them more sustainable through improved water management.

    I have never served on PAS board, but have tried on many occasions to seek out and get folks from the more aggressive side of our sport involved in a leadership role. No one has stepped up so if folks feel PAS does not represent their needs my response would be it is a 2-way street.

    I agree that communication needs to improve and am encouraged by your comment:
    " I'm not a hater of people doing good things for a good cause, but I am turned off by this group. And I really do hope that they can one day get it together and create a cohesive group here."

    PAS has a bit of an image problem among certain riders, and my guess is they would be willing to work on such if they knew specifics of how to do that. I reached out to MotoB (Randy)and offered to get together for a beer, he did not respond directly to my request. I did hear from Cruso (other Randy) noting Moto was not a bad guy just vocal here. I offered to buy them both beers and asked for such a meeting, but never heard back from Cruso. My intent in that outreach was to listen and learn, and I can not do that if they are not willing to meet for a friendly beer. How about you, can I buy you a beer or two to discuss how things could improve?

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    I agree that communication needs to improve and am encouraged by your comment:
    Being the New PAS communications Director I am open to any and all ideas to improve communication.
    Pisgah Area Sorba - Web Site Communications
    http://www.pisgahareasorba.org/

  85. #85
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    Another constructive thread, ruined by the forum troll.
    "Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go."
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  86. #86
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    It does seem lame he was quieted they weren't personal attacks. Sometimes differences in opinions are the beginnings of the best conversations. If we all loved and. Agreed with each other how boring would the world be?

  87. #87
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    thread is cleaned up a bit.

    All posts from a 'Previously Banned Member' have been deleted.

    If he shows up again let me know and I'll ban him.....again.

    thanks
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  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    thread is cleaned up a bit.

    All posts from a 'Previously Banned Member' have been deleted.

    If he shows up again let me know and I'll ban him.....again.

    thanks
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    Thanks. I feel much safer now.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by rion81 View Post
    I would like to see a trail connecting the end of Greenslick/Sidehill to the top of Lower Sidehill. I find the gravel down/up to be annoying.
    +1000

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maida7 View Post
    So this is about personalities and image? I'm fairly certain PAS is not completely comprised of transplants. No more transplants then the mtn bike population in general. If PAS was all transplants would that make them worse. Why? If you could change PAS what would you change? Be specific.

    Personally I don't agree with you. I don't believe that many people have these kinds of problems with PAS. In fact most everybody I hang with thinks PAS is a very positive group. At least that's what they tell me. I also don't believe PAS has a bad attitude. What it looks like is that you have a bad attitude. I see one guy (you) with a bad attitude. That's really all I see. I'm not trying to sweep this under the rug but that's all I see. Maybe I'm out of touch. Maybe people are too polite to tell me anything negative to my face. If you really think there is a problem, perhaps you could provide some solutions. Please be specific.
    Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I wanted to address this. I think you're wrong. I think PAS is largely transplants. Fairly recent ones at that. Maybe I'm wrong, but the point is that PAS is a fairly poor representation of the MTB community here. You are actually pretty small if you consider the shear volume of cyclists here. I know a lot, and I mean a lot of bikers that have lived here a long time that are not members. There is a huge disconnect. A lot of these people think quite poorly of PAS. Why do YOU think that is? I'm sure the crowd YOU hang with would never have a cross word about PAS. I would imagine that most of them either don't care or they're members. Again, maybe I'm wrong. But the fact is, whether any of ya'll believe it or not, that disconnect. PAS is a small faction of the diverse group of cyclists in the area. Ya'll are just the loudest, and frankly, the most obnoxious group.
    I don't know what the solution is. Maybe some sort of method of drawing in a more diverse group. Work together and not be so insular. Be open to different viewpoints. Respect. $h!t like that, you know. Most of you are way too up tight. I would suggest to you Maida, that if you really think I'm the only one that feels this way and you never hear a cross word about PAS, that you really need to broaden your horizons. Seriously, it's a big world out there. See some of it. Again, sorry for the beating. And by the way, no, being comprised of mostly transplants does not necessarily make PAS bad, or good. It just demonstrates that disconnect I was talking about.

  91. #91
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    65,

    I for one appreciate your thoughts here. You offered some feedback in a somewhat constructive way and hopefully it will be helpful.

    Many clubs across the US are in the same position. Name a city/town anywhere and the % of mountain bikers involved in an advocacy club is always small. You know the old saying 10% of the people do 90% of the work.

    If in fact your statement is true that much of PAS leadership is transplants: does that say more about the transplants who have jumped in and are willing to work to make a difference, or more about the locals who have not done the same? Also, is that not just indicative of our area? The Asheville/Brevard/Hooterville area has had tons of influx of mountain bikers over the past 10+ years and in fact when you look at the general mountain bike population it is an easy guess that there are more mountain bikers who moved to the area for the riding here (and found jobs) than there are locals (born here) who grew up on bikes riding trails.

    I don't know the life histories of all PAS board members and leadership or other members. I do know that Chuck Ramsey (though not a true local in terms of being born here) worked at the DuPont plant for 30+ years and that seems a good investment of time here. I know several others who do support the efforts who were in fact born here. Wes Dickson supports PAS and advocacy efforts and he was board in Brevard.

    Are you local to the area? Can you be the one that bridges the gap for PAS? Are you willing to help?

    If PS does not represent your views, will you be involved in the USFS Trails process happening now? I feel this is really important.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    65,

    I for one appreciate your thoughts here. You offered some feedback in a somewhat constructive way and hopefully it will be helpful.

    Many clubs across the US are in the same position. Name a city/town anywhere and the % of mountain bikers involved in an advocacy club is always small. You know the old saying 10% of the people do 90% of the work.

    If in fact your statement is true that much of PAS leadership is transplants: does that say more about the transplants who have jumped in and are willing to work to make a difference, or more about the locals who have not done the same? Also, is that not just indicative of our area? The Asheville/Brevard/Hooterville area has had tons of influx of mountain bikers over the past 10+ years and in fact when you look at the general mountain bike population it is an easy guess that there are more mountain bikers who moved to the area for the riding here (and found jobs) than there are locals (born here) who grew up on bikes riding trails.

    I don't know the life histories of all PAS board members and leadership or other members. I do know that Chuck Ramsey (though not a true local in terms of being born here) worked at the DuPont plant for 30+ years and that seems a good investment of time here. I know several others who do support the efforts who were in fact born here. Wes Dickson supports PAS and advocacy efforts and he was board in Brevard.

    Are you local to the area? Can you be the one that bridges the gap for PAS? Are you willing to help?

    If PS does not represent your views, will you be involved in the USFS Trails process happening now? I feel this is really important.
    Love or hate PAS, they are the IMBA Chapter, and the bottom line is that those willing to do the work are going to have a bigger say than those that sit back and complain. If you want to be part of the decision making, get involved.


    and my ideal trail? Good flow that does not follow the fall line and turn into a creek bed after it rains (Ledford ).
    Pisgah Area SORBA

    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    ... your idea of technical may be much different than other peoples idea of technical.

  93. #93
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    all yall are ridiculous
    it's mountainbiking, get out there and dig
    and if you dont like what someone has to say hit em' with a green grubber, hazel hoe, pulaski or whatever you have near by
    build tech **** when there not looking, then rebuild it again when they take it out

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerry68 View Post
    Love or hate PAS, they are the IMBA Chapter, and the bottom line is that those willing to do the work are going to have a bigger say than those that sit back and complain. If you want to be part of the decision making, get involved.


    and my ideal trail? Good flow that does not follow the fall line and turn into a creek bed after it rains (Ledford ).
    I thought pas was the local sorba chapter? So, no one outside the organization has a voice? Ledford? Really? Where?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChizmoNC View Post
    all yall are ridiculous
    it's mountainbiking, get out there and dig
    and if you dont like what someone has to say hit em' with a green grubber, hazel hoe, pulaski or whatever you have near by
    build tech **** when there not looking, then rebuild it again when they take it out
    That's a great policy if you don't want to keep access to your trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    I thought pas was the local sorba chapter? So, no one outside the organization has a voice? Ledford? Really? Where?
    PAS>SORBA>IMBA... Sure, everyone has a voice, but unless you are organized, your voice is just muffled b!tch!ng in the background, and Government agencies, City, County, State, or Federal are likely to pay you little or no attention.

    Trail running in the rain down Ledford from the FS to Wolf Branch it's a sloppy mess from the bridge to the intersection with Wolf.
    Pisgah Area SORBA

    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    ... your idea of technical may be much different than other peoples idea of technical.

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