2015 Carbon Norco Range with DBInline- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    2015 Carbon Norco Range with DBInline

    Any have a good set up for this combination?

    I am having trouble getting a good setting with the DBInline. FOr a few weeks i have been running it to the Norco sight settings at 165 psi. I didn't use the climb switch because it didn't seem to do anything. Now i am running the following settings.

    LSC +6
    HSC +1
    LSR +7
    HSR +2
    150psi
    No spacers

    The bike now pedals really well in climb mode only but is way too rough on the dh in this setting. I bought this shock because from reviews, people have said the DB air (i know its different) climbs really well in the normal setting and there is no reason to switch it into climb mode. How can i replicate the characteristics of the climb mode in the dh setting but make it plush enough to not rattle me to death??

    Any of you guys have this setup and want to share your settings??

  2. #2
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    I think I'm running like two clicks of lsc damping on mine.

    I've also got one spacer in the chamber.

    What do you weigh?
    STRAVA: Enabling dorks everywhere to get trails shut down........ all for the sake of a race on the internet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo View Post
    I think I'm running like two clicks of lsc damping on mine.

    I've also got one spacer in the chamber.

    What do you weigh?
    I am 165ish. 170 with gear.

    The spacer just allows you not to bottom out correct?

    How well does your climb? Are you switching the climb lever when you go up and down?

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    That's sort of what the spacers do. They also help move the air spring ramp up zone more into the midstroke. That's the main reason I stuck it in there.

    That shock has calmed down the suspension extending a good bit. It's the main reason I bought it. Most climb settings on most shocks won't help this bike because it doesn't squat under pedal loads, it extends. So that's going to be LS rebound damping.....which I've got at least as much or more dialed in than you I think.

    I've still never touched the climb switch. Haven't felt the need to.
    STRAVA: Enabling dorks everywhere to get trails shut down........ all for the sake of a race on the internet.

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    Are you the same weight running the same pressure?

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    I'm a little lighter (155 w/o gear) and correspondingly running a little less air pressure.

    But I have noticed it's pretty easy to over damp the compression side of these shocks and get them bucking like a hardtail.
    STRAVA: Enabling dorks everywhere to get trails shut down........ all for the sake of a race on the internet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo View Post
    I'm a little lighter (155 w/o gear) and correspondingly running a little less air pressure.

    But I have noticed it's pretty easy to over damp the compression side of these shocks and get them bucking like a hardtail.
    Ok so i tied adding one spacer but it didn't make much of a difference. Still climbs way better in climb mode.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo View Post
    ...That shock has calmed down the suspension extending a good bit. It's the main reason I bought it. Most climb settings on most shocks won't help this bike because it doesn't squat under pedal loads, it extends...
    Hmmm...I have the Monarch Plus on my Range. I haven't noticed the issue you are describing. Or maybe I am not understanding it correctly. But what you describe is precisely why I went with the Range over the Nomad (or so I thought, lol).

    My climbing (Calgary) is usually rocky, rooty, rough stuff. Inactive suspensions, or suspensions that firm up under load, have horrible traction in that kind of terrain (for me at least). I have 3 settings on that Monarch Plus. While I am still getting used to it, I have found the middle setting to be pretty good for slow, steep, techy climbing. Frankly, all 3 are pretty good, and certainly more active than the last couple of bikes I have owned - Scott Ransom LTD, Scott Genius 710).

    Not calling you out by any means. Just trying to understand my bike better in the early stages.

    Thanks.

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    How much the shock extends under power on the Range can vary quite a bit depending on both the front chainring size and the amount of suspension sag that the rider is running. A smaller chainring will make the issue worse as will running less sag. I'm running a double on my Range and when I'm on the 36T charinring the suspension is fairly close to neutral, but on the 24T granny it extends & tries to top out whenever I stand on the pedals. It was even worse on the stock 22T where it would extend even with seated pedaling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    How much the shock extends under power on the Range can vary quite a bit depending on both the front chainring size and the amount of suspension sag that the rider is running. A smaller chainring will make the issue worse as will running less sag. I'm running a double on my Range and when I'm on the 36T charinring the suspension is fairly close to neutral, but on the 24T granny it extends & tries to top out whenever I stand on the pedals. It was even worse on the stock 22T where it would extend even with seated pedaling.
    Well, I have now been on my 2015 C2 for 6 days in a row for a minimum of 2 hours per day, with plenty of extreme climbing, and I am happy to say that I have not experienced the issue you are describing. My Range climbs like a billy goat. I do have it down to a little over 27.5 pounds mind you, but that would not affect the suspension kinematics.

    The biggest issues I have are: a) it has THE worst paint job I have ever seen on a bike (I'm talking quality, not colour choice - it looks like they used a spray bomb in places); and b) every one of the little grommets where the cables meet the frame comes loose (I read they had corrected this with screws - my grommets do not have screws).

    Apart from that, zero complaints.
    Last edited by mtnbkrmike; 04-27-2015 at 09:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    Well, I have now been on my 2015 C2 for 6 days in a row for a minimum of 2 hours per day, with plenty of extreme climbing, and I am happy to say that I have not experienced the issue you are describing. My Range climbs like a billy goat. I do have it down to a little over 27.5 pounds mind you, but that would not affect the suspension kinematics.

    The biggest issues I have are: a) it has THE worst paint job I have ever seen on a bike (I'm talking quality, not colour choice - it looks like they used a spray bomb in places); and b) every one of the little grommets where the cables meet the frame comes loose (I read they had corrected this with screws - my grommets do not have screws).

    Apart from that, zero complaints.
    Hummm... any of you guys have issues with the rear tire slipping? It seems to happen all too much regardless of the condition (and i bought some new stick tires) so i think that it is either inherent in the bike or some shock setting.

    thoughts? Anyone running a DBInline?

    These are my settings right now.

    LSC +6
    HSC +1
    LSR +7
    HSR +2
    150psi
    1 large spacer

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoMO View Post
    Hummm... any of you guys have issues with the rear tire slipping? It seems to happen all too much regardless of the condition (and i bought some new stick tires) so i think that it is either inherent in the bike or some shock setting.
    I have, but that's because I'm running the "wrong" tires with too much air in them. I setup my tires to run nice & fast on 99% of the local trails and accept that they'll slip on a couple of the off-camber rooty climbs. If I drop 5-8 psi the problem goes away, but then the tires get too slow & squirmy for my taste.

    Without knowing what tires you're using, the tire pressure, drivetrain setup, and what kind of terrain you're slipping the rear tire on, it's hard to say if the problem is the tires, the bike, the shock, or your riding technique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoMO View Post
    Ok so i tied adding one spacer but it didn't make much of a difference. Still climbs way better in climb mode.
    Adding spacers does nothing to suspension movement while climbing so that makes sense. I just mentioned it as part of how I set mine up.

    CC claims the climb mode on these things damps both the compression and rebound side. It's the only shock that does that (enough that it's worth claiming at least)
    STRAVA: Enabling dorks everywhere to get trails shut down........ all for the sake of a race on the internet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    Well, I have now been on my 2015 C2 for 6 days in a row for a minimum of 2 hours per day, with plenty of extreme climbing, and I am happy to say that I have not experienced the issue you are describing.
    Just go pedal standing up while on something smooth....dirt road, whatever.

    Look down at the shock while you're pedaling, especially in a small ring up front.

    Here's what we're talking about

    Norco Range 27.5'' 2013 - Linkage Design

    Look at that first chart under the pic of the bike.


    I'm running a 32x11sp so it's pretty dramatic. Like aerius said, it doesn't start to chill out until around a 36t ring.
    STRAVA: Enabling dorks everywhere to get trails shut down........ all for the sake of a race on the internet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo View Post
    Just go pedal standing up while on something smooth....dirt road, whatever.

    Look down at the shock while you're pedaling, especially in a small ring up front.

    Here's what we're talking about

    Norco Range 27.5'' 2013 - Linkage Design

    Look at that first chart under the pic of the bike.


    I'm running a 32x11sp so it's pretty dramatic. Like aerius said, it doesn't start to chill out until around a 36t ring.
    Thanks. I don't really understand the chart Lol. To the extent the suspension stiffens under load though, I do note that this is contrary to what the Bike Bible guys appear to have found at 2:25 of their video (albeit they do say seated pedalling).

    I guess maybe I should just leave all of this alone. I am very happy with my Range. In fact climbing has been the surprise. I am actually much more shocked at how well it climbs, than how well it descends. It was a very pleasant surprise indeed. I leave it in the least compression mode of the three for everything - climbing, flats and the downs. It seems to rock it all. Then again, maybe I have just had crappy climbing bikes for the last while. As well, I have never been a big "out of the saddle" climber except for Slickrock-like short steep pitches, which may explain my inability to relate to any of this.

    As for traction, I am running a DHR II on the back and a DHF on the front, tubeless, 20 psi, and honest to God, my traction has been incredible. My tires have stayed glued to the snottiest, rootiest, rockiest, steepest, gnarliest crap I can climb.

    I'm completely stoked about that bike so maybe I should stop reading about it online. LMAO!

    Anyway, sorry for jacking this thread. I will stop now. I'm just delighted to have found some fellow Range owners. This site is DEAD for Norco. Wow! Norco is huge in my neck of the woods. It is non-existent on this site. Completely irrelevant.

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    SONOFA B! I knew I should not have translated that linkage site with Google translate, or read for about 3 more hours about all the anti-squat inherent in this suspension design. Dammit!

    I must say that in real world conditions, I don't feel as though I have been hampered in my climbing. I am not even going to reveal what my single front ring is, for fear of being called a puss. LMAO! But wow - it makes me wonder how much of a better climber I could be with a different bike (or a bigger ring).

    I could still return this bike and get something else. Part of the perks of being a 100% loyal customer for 25 years. I don't know if I have the balls to do it though. The only things that are stock on that bike are the frame, fork, shock and dropper. I'm sure my LBS will not be too impressed if I ask them if I can return it at this point. LOL! But I know they would if I asked.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    As well, I have never been a big "out of the saddle" climber except for Slickrock-like short steep pitches, which may explain my inability to relate to any of this.
    I'm fairly sure this is why the you have a different experience than us, and why the bike works so well for you. And if it works great then don't worry about the rest of us or how other bikes might be like, just go ride and enjoy.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    I'm fairly sure this is why the you have a different experience than us, and why the bike works so well for you. And if it works great then don't worry about the rest of us or how other bikes might be like, just go ride and enjoy.
    Wow. I can't begin to tell you how completely bummed I am right now.

    I bought that bike not because I thought it was a good value, but because I thought it would be the best or one of the best bikes available for my intended purpose. Money was no object. In the end, after Enve rims, Race Face this and that and some XX1 thrown in, I dropped about $8k on it.

    So...why would Norco design it like that? Quite frankly, I thought I was buying a Horst Link suspension design. In terms of anti-squat and pedal kickback, looks like they are not even close due to the pivot location.

    Why would Norco, which is located smack dab in the middle of some of the techiest trails in the world, design a bike that is intended to be a decent climber (although, granted, not its forte) that shits the bed on suspension independence? What could possibly be the rationale? Rearward travel for square-edged stuff? Pedalling platform so no need to mess with the shock lever? A subtle re-design to attempt to avoid Specialized patent issues on the Horst Link?

    The C1 and C2 (and others I suspect) come with a 1x drivetrain, spec'ed with a 30 tooth ring. That puts them squarely in the middle of pedal kickback hell.

    Any ideas as to the thought process by the design team at Norco?

    I may call them today. Seriously. I bet they are totally accessible. I called Race Face the other day and had a long chat with a couple of totally techie guys there about a few things. They were very cool. I bet Norco would be too.

    Crap! I tried to be so careful when I bought this bike. I tried to read everything I could. I missed the suspension design aspect because, like I said, I assumed it was Horst Link design and I have had a few Specialized over the years so I was familiar with how active the suspension design was, which is what I wanted for this bike - ACTIVE suspension.

    Aaarrrggghhh...

    [ColoradoMO - super sorry for the thread jacking.]

    PS - I was just out on my bike for 4 hours tonight. I think I see where you are coming from now. I did notice it firm up on the climbing. But I guess for me, I'm not sure whether that is such a bad thing. I cleaned a techie climb that I have only been able to nail maybe 50% of the time, and only way later in the season. I experience no spinning or traction issues at all. Zero. I do notice it firm up a bit though. I just read a February 27, 2013 article online in Flow magazine entitled "An Interview with Norco's Engineering Manager, P.J. Hunton". Here is how he summed up the difference between the FSR and ART suspension designs:
    Itís all about the rearward axle path, where a Specialized is less-rearward than a Norco with A.R.T. We feel it gives you better bump compliance because it allows the rear wheel to move back to help maintain the bikeís momentum, instead of the wheel moving just straight up.
    You have more chain growth with A.R.T., and thus more anti squat forces generated. It all helps the bike stay firmer under hard pedalling actions; even under braking it is more active than a typical FSR design. Bicycle suspension is pretty much all about the axle path, that is the key. We feel very strongly that what we have done with A.R.T. suspension really does work, and gives you an advantage on the trail.
    Last edited by mtnbkrmike; 04-30-2015 at 08:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    I'm fairly sure this is why the you have a different experience than us, and why the bike works so well for you. And if it works great then don't worry about the rest of us or how other bikes might be like, just go ride and enjoy.
    [deleted since double post]

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoMO View Post
    Hummm... any of you guys have issues with the rear tire slipping? It seems to happen all too much regardless of the condition (and i bought some new stick tires) so i think that it is either inherent in the bike or some shock setting.

    thoughts? Anyone running a DBInline?

    These are my settings right now.

    LSC +6
    HSC +1
    LSR +7
    HSR +2
    150psi
    1 large spacer
    Is this tire slipping occurring with the climb switch on?
    STRAVA: Enabling dorks everywhere to get trails shut down........ all for the sake of a race on the internet.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    So...why would Norco design it like that? Quite frankly, I thought I was buying a Horst Link suspension design. In terms of anti-squat and pedal kickback, looks like they are not even close due to the pivot location.
    You did buy a 4-bar Horst link design. What you didn't buy was Specialized's interpretation of the 4-bar Horst link design. Though an interesting thing to note is that the Specialized version is now a lot closer to what Norco uses compared to what it was in the past. When my friend bought his Enduro 7-8 years ago the suspension had pretty much zero anti-squat and depended heavily on the shock to keep suspension bob to a manageable level while climbing. Nowadays? It's at nearly 100% anti-squat with typical sag & chainring sizes and doesn't need a heavy platform on the shock to keep it from wallowing under power.

    As for why, I did speak with one of the Norco suspension designers about 3 years back regarding the rearward axle path and how it firms up the suspension while climbing. Short version is it's a design choice they made; they accepted that losing some suspension compliance under heavier pedaling loads was worth it for simplified shock requirements (no fancy platforms or valving needed), improved downhill performance, and better overall pedaling efficiency. He acknowledged that it can get hung up a little easier on technical climbs than something like the Rocky Mountain Altitude which stays fully active under power, however, it's more active under braking, works better on the downhills, and you don't need to hit the lockout or climb switch if you're climbing a fire road.

  22. #22
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    ^What he said.

    That's really my only gripe with the bike. An extending and I guess subtle accompanying forward axle path while extending, drives the back wheel into holes and ledges when you're on the gas climbing. It does cause the thing to hang up......and hence lose traction sometimes. It also really helps accelerate the bike if that power stroke comes down on the top of the same ledges.

    No bike is perfect because there's no such thing as perfect for every rider in every situation. The idea that just because there's more than 100% antisquat, the bike sucks is silly.

    I've owned 8 horst link bikes before this one. I'd rather have this setup over some of what specialized (and Norco) has made in the past with heavily squatting suspension. If you want that buy a knolly. Those things are smoother uphill but then suck under pedal loads in the opposite direction.

    But these ranges descend much better behaved than a lot of the other plastic wonderbikes that are more expensive and more popular.
    STRAVA: Enabling dorks everywhere to get trails shut down........ all for the sake of a race on the internet.

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    Since my last post I have spent another 12+ hours in the saddle. Yup - not sure why, but I am not really seeing the issue. Yes - it firms up a bit on climbing but I have yet to have a traction issue in even the gnarliest and most evil techy sections of roots, rock and ledges. And that includes wet stuff.

    I think I must be a kinder, gentler pedaller than the rest of you :-)

    Back out today now...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo View Post
    ^What he said.

    That's really my only gripe with the bike...
    Don't your grommets come free where the cables meet the frame for the internal cable routing? Every single one of mine pop out on every single ride. I need to figure out a fix for it. A first world problem for sure but nonetheless, a seemingly needless PITA.
    Last edited by mtnbkrmike; 05-03-2015 at 04:08 PM.

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    Ok sorry for the delay in posting back... i was in moab!

    So make things worse, I rode hi-masa/ahab, porc and mag 7 (whole thing) and the bike rode exceptionally well on all of the rides up and down (got 4 flats on Porc but that is a different thing any way). I didn't change a damn thing except altitude which was offset by beer.

    I rode a few other bikes out there (there must have been 10 different bikes in our group) and except for one proto, i think mine was the best all around up and down. Out of all the gnarly tech stuff, i may have not been able to go up a few things on my bike and that was just because i was out of steam.

    So since it will be raining all week, i will head out once it drys up on fresh legs and see if i keep having issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoMO View Post
    Ok sorry for the delay in posting back... i was in moab!

    So make things worse, I rode hi-masa/ahab, porc and mag 7 (whole thing) and the bike rode exceptionally well on all of the rides up and down (got 4 flats on Porc but that is a different thing any way). I didn't change a damn thing except altitude which was offset by beer.

    I rode a few other bikes out there (there must have been 10 different bikes in our group) and except for one proto, i think mine was the best all around up and down. Out of all the gnarly tech stuff, i may have not been able to go up a few things on my bike and that was just because i was out of steam.

    So since it will be raining all week, i will head out once it drys up on fresh legs and see if i keep having issues.
    Good to hear! I'm heading to Moab in September with my Range, and then to Hurricane later that same month with a different group.

    I would think that bike was made for The Whole Enchilada.

    What do you mean "So make things worse..."? Your post sounds like a good news story to me.

    Also, what do you mean by "one proto"? Prototype? Was it a carbon Process? I met Dick from Kona the other night and he told me he has been rocking a carbon Process 153 but that it is still at least a season away from going prime time. I bet that will be a sweet Moab bike too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    Don't your grommets come free where the cables meet the frame for the internal cable routing? Every single one of mine pop out on every single ride. I need to figure out a fix for it. A first world problem for sure but nonetheless, a seemingly needless PITA.
    They work themselves out about 3mm or so but never pop out. Even if they did, I'd just take them off. They don't really serve much of a purpose. It also has nothing to do with ride quality which is what I meant.

    Try running 5mm shifter housing if you're not. Or just take them off.
    STRAVA: Enabling dorks everywhere to get trails shut down........ all for the sake of a race on the internet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    Good to hear! I'm heading to Moab in September with my Range, and then to Hurricane later that same month with a different group.

    I would think that bike was made for The Whole Enchilada.

    What do you mean "So make things worse..."? Your post sounds like a good news story to me.

    Also, what do you mean by "one proto"? Prototype? Was it a carbon Process? I met Dick from Kona the other night and he told me he has been rocking a carbon Process 153 but that it is still at least a season away from going prime time. I bet that will be a sweet Moab bike too.
    Sucks because there is no consistency.

    My buddy is an engineer at a bike company and he was testing a new rig while we were out there.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoMO View Post
    Sucks because there is no consistency.

    My buddy is an engineer at a bike company and he was testing a new rig while we were out there.
    Got it. At least you may be trending in the right direction :-)

    That said, I think generally at least, even in the steepest and gnarliest of stuff, Moab is MUCH grippier traction-wise than my neck of the woods. I rented a Range from Chile Peppers second last time I was there and OMG was it a blast. Zero traction issues and it dominated on The Whole Enchilada.

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