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  1. #1
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    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics

    Just thought I'd throw this one out there as its of the moment.

    A few people have visited the factory now and ridden the GPI. The bike is on the website now too so I thought it was time people had an opportunity to comment and post setup if they have a Mojo Geometron build too since there are only subtle differences.

    I visited the factory last week to ride the GPI with Vincent and Marcel and to discuss questions I had about the bike and to compare the geometries with my own Ion16 which is similar but different.

    It turned out to be an interesting day and a bit..

    Mtb.de did a write up too which was interesting to me, I find the obsession with weight quite interesting, ( I would be lying if I said I had not been a little focussed on this issue in the past and maybe still a little now!) but the write up on the geometry and how the bike rode was good, although also obviously a first impression from people new to riding this kind of setup, it does take a small adjustment time for most, but not all, and some just plain don't like it.

    On the weight, before I rode the bike I was obsessing about how I could make it lighter. The technology, gearbox, belt potential rear suspension performance really appeal so I wanted to want this bike! But I worried about even a best case of 1kg heavier than my own bike, the guys suggested 800g heavier than an XX1 build, I think that could be slightly optimistic.
    I dived down the route of justification and did some energy use calculations using available software, this surprised and encouraged me. I am an engineer by background so am well acquainted with the benefits of mass centralisation for handling but this is a self powered vehicle!
    Anyway, my calculations revealed that even on a massive pedalling uphill day at mtb speeds, the weight difference would amount to around 100kCal extra energy expended, so not much. Hugely more significant is tyre size and compound...so I went into the test more open minded.

    Ride impressions:
    The weight, well I can honestly say I didn't notice it! I forced myself not to car park test it first. Afterwards I did a car park pickup test and even that was strange because the balance is obvious.
    We had a few logistical challenges since the bike was set up continental style with front brake on the left. We swopped them over but it wasn't completely successful and led to some other conclusions based on a few failing to brake in time for corner incidents and just trusting the traction, fortunately that was (mostly) successful!

    I rode the M or Longer bike first which is shorter than my current bike in the ETT; the same HA; longer chainstays, same BB height, steeper ST on paper but because of how my bike is set up effectively very close; 5mm longer stem.
    My immediate impression was it felt short and steep, this is apparently an unusual reaction to this bike! Probably only because of my current bike.

    Post analysis and comparison to my bike revealed why I felt this way, it was a bit of an illusion; short because of the slightly shorter ETT, steep because my weight and position in(not on) the bike was noticeably further forward and so the front looked less 'kicked out or slack' or 'flat' if you translate into English from German on Google so as is ever more clear to me the sum of the small changes to conventional geometry/trends and even recent forward geometry add up to significant differences in riding feel.

    The second impression was that the gearbox and gripshift were a non issue. (I have used a Rohloff in the past) the pinion on this bike was very easy to use, almost silent in operation with no perceptible drag, you could hear some noise in some gears (maybe as much because the bike was so quiet) but it didn't translate to a feeling of drag to me. Definitely no more than a 1x set up with narrow/wide where you can feel the chainline.
    It's also obvious when you try to pedal backwards on an unloaded 1x set up, it doesn't freewheel in the extreme gears and changes gear itself; anyway for me drag was a non issue. I feared it would be, so that was a big tick. The gripshift, well it's fine, I forgot how nice it is to change lots of gears at once. A trigger will be nice, apparently due early in 2016. If Pinion don't get the job done and a trigger released then Nicolai will. There is enough room in the gearbox for some and it's not rocket science. It's also a big enough deal to put people off the bike, rightly or wrongly, so I'm convinced it will happen. Pinion are automotive engineers and still learning we think what difference areas of biking want/need.

    Changing gear while loaded, well this was something I was worried about too. No issues changing up, easy as eating bratwurst . Changing down, you have to feel it, very quickly I was just changing in the right place in the rotation and looking ahead, when loaded you only have to back off a tiny bit, with some pressure already on the shifter for an instant change. The box really does change incredibly quickly, so quickly sometimes the only way to tell is the difference in cadence, which is also subtle for one gear. I think I could almost get away with the 9spd.
    Some load is fine sometimes, not enough riding time to figure out that subtlety, I got caught out once , but was still able to recover. (Tho I ran out of steam on the climb!)
    You do have the double freewheel lag, it didn't bother me, but the ascents weren't crazy techy, for mine I will probably fit an I9 rear hub with 120pt engagement, maybe try my CK first. We discussed this being an opportunity to engage with Hope for example to create a special hub with high engagement but also an even wider flange spacing since even an SS hub has lots of unused space with the belt drive sprocket.
    All in all, I had no problems with the feel of the gearbox which was important for me and I did not feel the extra weight in handling terms, more on that later..

    Rear suspension feel/belt drive. The rear was super sensitive and sat up really nicely around the sag point, this is clearly part of Chris Porter's feedback into the bike, the change in pivot point and anti squat, and it works very well, it needed more rebound for me it was so 'free'.
    This lack of stiction is part of the benefit of the belt and tensioner design according to Marcel and makes the bike feel like it has much more travel than 155mm. The sensitivity has to be enhanced by the 40% weight reduction of the back wheel too. I think a reduced travel shock for a really lively feel on regular trails could be nice then switch to a full travel shock for bigger stuff. Having said that I didn't think 'this has too much travel' the excellent pedalling performance was a factor in that.
    On that point I just didn't notice bob or inefficiency, for pedalling, in or out of the saddle it just felt stable and effective, definitely more so than my standard Ion rear set up and with more traction when out of the saddle, I would say helped by the longer chainstays.

    Cornering:
    This was fantastic, where the bike really excelled. Compared to my bike I could really feel the difference in the chainstay length and the extra reach in a positive way for my riding style, my Ion15 had longer chainstays than production and I also preferred that in cornering, it makes weighting the front very natural with a lot of feedback, added to the room in the bike it was very confidence inspiring. The M/Longer bike with 502mm reach has a little more room than on my bike when out of the saddle (for the same set up) and that was welcome for my 178cm height. My natural position relative to the centre of the bike felt great, it's a small change in absolute numbers compared to my current bike but it made a surprisingly big difference in conjunction with.....the low centre of gravity of the gearbox. The bike felt really planted in corners, very stable but also manoeuvrable, easy to change direction but without any fear of losing traction in the transition period. I loved this element of its character, it was exactly what I was hoping for.
    As mentioned earlier, one of the corners I came in too hot due to no brakes and just had to throw it round, it just went round, no drama, lots of grip, very natural. I did bale and overshoot one corner but that was pilot error

    Manualing the bike or lifting the front takes a bit more effort than a similar geometry non gearbox bike, but it's not terrible, Vincent was still popping wheelies with ease. I'm rubbish at wheelies so my front wheel action was limited to lifting over roots and a bit of minor testing, it felt fine to me so I didn't dwell on it.

    I also tried the longest/L version briefly, it felt more normal to pedal as its close to my bikes ETT but it also felt a little long, the reach was pushing it for my size I think with a 35mm stem. With a 10 or 15mm like a P-Dent or Mondraker it would be fine but I'm happy around 30mm I think now.
    M/Longer just felt right.

    Then there was a happy accident...because my brakes were getting worse (don't turn your Hope brakes upside down kids) we took the fast, steep and very loose double track fire road back to the village to avoid any more overshooting incidents.
    This gave me a chance to really feel my position on the bike on a sustained descent whilst cornering on a flaky surface, it turned out to be the best test of the size of the bike too (i couldn't shake the 'is it too short' feeling' I had.)
    It was a real eye opener, I was able to change direction very easily at high speed without significant effort, initiate a good carve, but the most impressive thing was I could really feel the grip across the bike, but particularly on the front to the point I was front wheel drifting, but also could manage that drift with confidence, it made me whoop out loud.

    Clearly some of the traits of the bike are due to the suspension set up(Fox 36/Floatx) but I think I know my bike and the suspension setup well enough to say that the big changes I could feel were due to the differences in geometry/weight distribution and rear suspension set up/changes I.e. the change in pivot point/progression.
    It is pretty clear that the work Nicolai have done with Chris has really paid off, the suspension works brilliantly with this geo and gearbox/belt setup as a package.

    So despite initial weight reservations I've decided the advantages far outweigh(no pun intended) the disadvantages of this bike as a package.

    I keep providing the feedback on seat tube length too (too long for most relative to length) so my bike will have a 420mm ST, the Long/S ST on the longer/M frame. But apart from that my first almost stock bike in a number of years.

    It will be a long wait now to week 44 and an agonising decision on colour as usual...but yes I have ordered a frameset package.
    The next thing to await is a trigger for the pinion...

    Since there will not be many of these around to test and its a lot of money if you haven't tried one, I have said to the guys at Nicolai I will make the bike available to ride (obviously with me present!) in the UK to people who are seriously interested in the bike. Obviously it's down to me to decide if people are seriously interested or just after a shot! It's only one size but it's also probably the most common size.

    Nicolai are looking to come to the UK next year to run some demo days of their range..

    In the UK to try or buy a std Nicolai/Mojo Geometron Ion obviously Chris Porter at Mojo is your guy, he and Nicolai have put a lot of time , multi prototypes and effort into it and it's paid off, you will only get frame/bike through Mojo.

    The packages include the ability to tune shock length/travel and you can go frame only too, just get in touch with Chris at Mojo...

    For those who want the Geometron geometry outside of the UK...keep an eye on the Nicolai website after Eurobike or contact your dealer...

    Ok, it's long, there are probably some errors, I hope it's useful. If I can answer questions or you feel inspired great. I'm writing this on holiday so don't expect too much too quickly...

    The shop NICOLAI ION GPI PRO

    The bike
    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-image.jpg


    Some video


    Video: Nicolai ION GPI - Vorstellung - MTB-News.de
    Last edited by the_pilot; 08-21-2015 at 08:26 AM. Reason: typos's..
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  2. #2
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    Hi the_pilot. Many thanks for your post. It is a very interesting reading as I am very interested in the ION GPI. Unfortunately my funds are limited so I will have to wait a little bit longer :-(. Anyway did guys at Nicolai mention the price of frameset only? At the moment the Nicolai website lists only the whole bike option. Thanks again for the excellent post.

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    @slavdo I believe the frame package option will be listed in the website but I think after Eurobike now. The GPI has a number of inclusions with the frame set for example the belt cogs/pully's, the tensioner, guard, belt etc so it's not as simple to price as a normal frame. It is also very much a package with the rear shock so that too may be factored in or an option.
    If you contact Nicolai I am sure they will help with what you may be looking for. Either call or email, they are very busy getting ready for Eurobike so may not be as quick as usual right now.


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    Good job! Great write-up, as usual from The Pilot

    Hey Pilot,

    Nice write up, very thorough and informative, as usual. You certainly do a lot for awareness of Nicolai, my friend. I bet you've inspired a few sales with your various posts to say the least.
    Having read that GPI piece, I am really looking forward to having a go. And seriously considering a Pinion too!

    You wrote that on holiday! On a phone? Even on a big phone, dedication to fueling all our interests , that is.

    Again thanks, I am sure the factory visit was great fun again and you've done your best to share that with us all. More pics please.

    Enjoy the holiday.
    Last edited by mudfish801; 08-21-2015 at 09:16 AM.

  6. #6
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    Thanks Mudfish, you're dead right on both counts. Corrected now I hope. And yes, but it is quite a big phone! It's quite sunny now and the memory is fresh!
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    Hey Pilot,
    Do you perhaps have any observations about the BB height? Plainly, that low BB aids stability and according to CP, helps the front wheel to roll better. (Feet below axle), so there are a lot of positives - but how about on rooty trails, did you get to ride enough, despite the non functional brakes to know whether pedal strikes are an issue? I guess one could always ride in the higher/steeper configuration in rooty woods. It would still be low but perhaps more manageable?
    Oh, one more thing, is the chainstay pivot in the same place as on the non-Pinion Geometron version, in the pics it looks like it might perhaps be pushed back just a touch by the gearbox location?
    If it is different then I guess that would affect the suspension kinematics somewhat?
    Thanks

  8. #8
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    Ok BB height. Not really, but it has a Very slightly higher BB height than my current Ion16 which has 5mm more rear travel. We did ride some rooty sections (mostly tech up) and a couple of logs (down) and I didn't notice any problems. Pedal strikes were an original concern of mine. Talking with Marcel they are not worried and the BB height was considered from this point too.
    I like a low BB and have had only occasional problems with my bike. When that has been a concern/issue the 7mm lift from switching the chip (changing the GPI to 64.2 HA, has sorted it out. I've only had to do this once in Spain.
    Having said that I will use 165mm or maybe even 160mm cranks to minimise the risk further.
    You can choose from many sizes with the cnc cranks. Most science says there are no downsides to shorter cranks, many of us are on cranks too long.
    The chainstay pivot is in a different position to a std Ion, yes. But the effective chainstay length is the same I understand and so the kinematics a are too, I.e designed to work the same.

    In summary I have had no serious problems with strikes on my current, lower Ion. I had no problems on my ride and I would expect that the fact this GPI sits up so well around the sag point and has slightly less travel it should be better still.

    One thing I didn't mention is gear ratios.
    I'm still tempted by the 9sp. The 12sp has a range much wider than xx1 but in this implementation the same low gear as 30/42 but much higher gearing. The 9sp has bigger gaps between the gears (feels like 2 gear gaps apparently) it's 150g lighter.
    I would have liked a slightly lower gear. That's possible with the 18sp. But the belt does restrict the options slightly to going much lower than 30/42 equivalent with the 12 or 9sp. It's about the same as a 24/36.
    I have asked how low it's possible to go with the belt.


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    Last edited by the_pilot; 08-24-2015 at 01:09 AM.
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    Wow, epic review, Pilot. I'll watch with interest.

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    while ive nothing useful to add having never seen one or ridden one, id just like to say.... ive ordered one! if its rubbish then im blaming Phil!
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    Thanx for that excellent write-up!
    Unfortunately I don't have the funds for a Geometron/custom-geo Nicolai... but it all sounds very interesting and logical to me and I really would like to demo a GPI for a couple of days. At 189cm I'm somehow always between L/XL and my Ion16(26) in L ist definitely to small...

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    Quote Originally Posted by dipper View Post
    while ive nothing useful to add having never seen one or ridden one, id just like to say.... ive ordered one! if its rubbish then im blaming Phil!
    Yeah, Phil is a great brand ambassador here in the UK

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    Thanks the_pilot for sharing your experiences!

    I wander how would "geometron" geometry interact with 29er wheels...

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    I thought about this before I went down this route originally with my own bike (The Ion16 fwd) and discussed it after putting together the Ion15 and then going to the fwd geo 16. The principles of the geometron geo package applies equally BUT the advantage/disadvantage distribution gets taken to extremes in my opinion, the bike would get really really long to deliver the same weight distribution, but at the same time it's not necessary due to significant stability coming from the additional trail and gyroscopic stability inherently generated by the wheel size. Using a really slack HA isn't 'necessary' and would be detrimental to handling overall in my opinion with 29 whereas its actually part of the value of the package with the smaller wheels.

    A key part of the Geometron philosophy is to accept that making the front centre long and HA slack, and chainstays longer (to centralise weight and improve how the front is weighted) does not make the bike slow handling at speed or poor handling at low speed (In fact using the slack HA to its advantage at slow speed) and then in conjunction with the very steep SA still delivers a bike that climbs well but does not create a poor pedalling position due to its integration with the shock/pivot sag design.

    So for me, I'll stick my neck out and say that on balance I don't think it would work very well with 29 wheels other than perhaps to create a 'rocket sled'
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    Great write up the_pilot.

    I have been waiting for them to bring a belt drive gear box bike to market for quite some time.

    I am lucky enough to live only a couple of miles away from Mojo, and I am wondering if its worth spending £200 to demo the Geometron with the view to buy the GPI as a frame set when available.

    Speaking of which anyone got an idea on the frameset price? might be more attainable!

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    I have one remark regarding gearing. I just checked the gear ratios on pinion website:
    P1.12 Gearbox | PINION | DRIVE TECHNOLOGY |

    It seems to me, that the ION GPI has very reasonable gears:
    Chainring size: 39
    Sprocket size: 34
    Wheel circumference (27.5 inch with 715 mm diameter): 2247 mm

    The resulting wheel development is 1410 mm.

    In comparison with, lets say 26 inch bike (690 mm diameter) and the lowest gear ratio 22/34, the resulting wheel development is 22/34*2170=1404 mm. I think that this is from my point of view perfect gearing.

  17. #17
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    the_pilot

    How would you make the ION GPI lighter? What would be your proposed spec?

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    At some point, hopefully early, in the new year we will be bringing a GPI into the UK and making it available to demo.

    After the success of the Forest of Dean Demo weekend and the interest in the GPI as well as the GeoMetron it seems like a good thing to do. The GeoMetron really is a bike you have to ride to appreciate and the GPI perhaps even more so with the 'box and belt too.

    It will be on a similar basis to the current Geometron, If potential customers are interested we can either meet at a location close to Mojo like the FoD and ride, providing set up advice etc. Alternatively by arrangement, we can meet up and the (potential) customer can ride the bike on his/her home trails or trails of choice to get a feel for how the bike works for them on home/familiar or aspirational turf!

    The bike will be specced to keep the weight down but durable and will have the signature Mojo/Fox suspension package.

    It will be a M in size but I am looking to get hold of a suitable seatpost (200mm dropper) so even tall guys can get comfortable given this is a 502mm reach/640mm TT bike already. (20mm shorter than the L/Longest)
    Similarly if we can get one built with a lower ST/TT (Likely 440mm) so smaller guys can also get comfortable and a good feel for how the bike rides with some minor set up changes e.g. tweaks to saddle/stem/bar.

    A Long/S and L/longest GeoMetron will be available to test to get the sizing spot on. Cornering and feel is very close obviously with the principle difference being the 'box and belt.
    I'll keep this post updated as we (hopefully) make progress towards that goal.
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  19. #19
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    Good news Mr. Pilot!

    You're a excellent Ambassador for Nicolai and the whole "longer geo" thingy!

    2 Thumbs up

    ra

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    thanks raschaa. Appreciated. I try.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    At some point, hopefully early, in the new year we will be bringing a GPI into the UK and making it available to demo.

    After the success of the Forest of Dean Demo weekend and the interest in the GPI as well as the GeoMetron it seems like a good thing to do. The GeoMetron really is a bike you have to ride to appreciate and the GPI perhaps even more so with the 'box and belt too.

    It will be on a similar basis to the current Geometron, If potential customers are interested we can either meet at a location close to Mojo like the FoD and ride, providing set up advice etc. Alternatively by arrangement, we can meet up and the (potential) customer can ride the bike on his/her home trails or trails of choice to get a feel for how the bike works for them on home/familiar or aspirational turf!

    The bike will be specced to keep the weight down but durable and will have the signature Mojo/Fox suspension package.

    It will be a M in size but I am looking to get hold of a suitable seatpost (200mm dropper) so even tall guys can get comfortable given this is a 502mm reach/640mm TT bike already. (20mm shorter than the L/Longest)
    Similarly if we can get one built with a lower ST/TT (Likely 440mm) so smaller guys can also get comfortable and a good feel for how the bike rides with some minor set up changes e.g. tweaks to saddle/stem/bar.

    A Long/S and L/longest GeoMetron will be available to test to get the sizing spot on. Cornering and feel is very close obviously with the principle difference being the 'box and belt.
    I'll keep this post updated as we (hopefully) make progress towards that goal.
    I think only Vecnum Moveloc fits the 200mm requirement.

  22. #22
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    ITs not crucial tatankainlond, but I had a 200mm Moveloc on my previous Ion, they are almost impossible to get so I will ask my friend who had it if he will let me have it back!
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  23. #23
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    haha think 9point8 !

    9Point8 Fall Line Dropper Posts - 2016 Bike Components at Interbike - Mountain Biking Pictures - Vital MTB

    and.. anticipationName:  gpi chainstay .jpg
Views: 2778
Size:  14.7 KB is sometimes unbearable...


    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    At some point, hopefully early, in the new year we will be bringing a GPI into the UK and making it available to demo.

    After the success of the Forest of Dean Demo weekend and the interest in the GPI as well as the GeoMetron it seems like a good thing to do. The GeoMetron really is a bike you have to ride to appreciate and the GPI perhaps even more so with the 'box and belt too.

    It will be on a similar basis to the current Geometron, If potential customers are interested we can either meet at a location close to Mojo like the FoD and ride, providing set up advice etc. Alternatively by arrangement, we can meet up and the (potential) customer can ride the bike on his/her home trails or trails of choice to get a feel for how the bike works for them on home/familiar or aspirational turf!

    The bike will be specced to keep the weight down but durable and will have the signature Mojo/Fox suspension package.

    It will be a M in size but I am looking to get hold of a suitable seatpost (200mm dropper) so even tall guys can get comfortable given this is a 502mm reach/640mm TT bike already. (20mm shorter than the L/Longest)
    Similarly if we can get one built with a lower ST/TT (Likely 440mm) so smaller guys can also get comfortable and a good feel for how the bike rides with some minor set up changes e.g. tweaks to saddle/stem/bar.

    A Long/S and L/longest GeoMetron will be available to test to get the sizing spot on. Cornering and feel is very close obviously with the principle difference being the 'box and belt.
    I'll keep this post updated as we (hopefully) make progress towards that goal.

  24. #24
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    I don't appear to be able to get 9point8 in the UK. THe direct website doesnt appear to work and we have no distributors!

    Quote Originally Posted by AttitudeBikes View Post
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  25. #25
    yet another stupid german
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    I had no peoblems reaching 9point8.ca just now...
    Maybe German Distribution can help you:
    Shocker Distribution

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    I got to the home page fine, it just wouldn't allow the selection of anything! however, I really need them to make the longer one, the 175mm would be ideal. Next year again I guess...
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    Hello people..

    I will be in line for a new bike soon and i am looking very seriously at the Geometron and i would like to hear any comment from owners or people who have ridden one i'm very interested in its climbing capabilities
    I know it's a marmite bike looks wise but if it does everything it's meant to then i'm very interested..
    Also has anyone any insider knowledge regarding the 29er version that was recently tested alongside the 650b version in a recent mag (can't remember which)

    Many Thanks in advance

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    Squid69 If you have a search on here you will see I can answer yes to all of the questions on that. Scan the threads. It climbs great.
    I do know about the 29 also. But unless you really really want one, and Chris would probably rather not make them ;-) it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist in many ways. Kind of wheel size for wheel size sake.
    It was only commissioned to demonstrate to journalists why it doesn't work as well with this kind of geometry.
    I could probably set up a test of someone was very serious about it, but back to back, I'd bet 9 out of 10 people would choose the 27.5 wheeled bike.
    PM me if you want to go into more detail.
    Last edited by the_pilot; 11-28-2015 at 11:54 AM. Reason: Typo

  29. #29
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    Thanks for the quick reply the_pilot

    I was only curious about the 29er nothing serious....but the 650b version i am very interested in....i presume you meant "PM me" not "On me" if not whats "On me"....?

  30. #30
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    I see you also have an Ion 16 what are your personal views on this compared to the Geometron as this was also on my list of 2 bikes....

  31. #31
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    Yes! Corrected now! Just easier than the thread if you have detailed questions. However , If you have questions you think are relevant to a wider audience. Post away. I'm happy to reply.👍

  32. #32
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    So we will be getting a GPI over here in UK to make available as a a demo. Longer size as it's flexible enough to set up for taller and shorter riders to get a good feel and we can have the right size std bike available to confirm sizing.

    It will also be possible to demo both bikes back to back if there's genuine interest in th GPI.

    Should be available after Xmas. The intention is to use a nice light but still robust build.
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  33. #33
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    Just for information there are now some more Geometron frames in Stock at Mojo from Nicolai, The next production will see frames landing towards the end of February.
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  34. #34
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    Geometron Demo Info

    UK Riders:

    There are likely to be some more demo days next year with Nicolai staff in attendance again, like the Forest of Dean day, with the full range of Nicolai bikes and in a addition dedicated Mojo/Fox Geometron demo days with Geometrons/Nicolai GPI options and maybe the odd special project…

    If anyone is interested in a Demo ride in the meantime the following options are available in 2016. The range of bikes/frame sets with the GeoMetron geometry is now
    Derailleur equipped Mojo/Nicolai 27.5 GeoMetron in S/M/L (Long/Longer/Longest) - usually available from stock
    Derailleur equipped Mojo/Nicolai 29 GeoMetron in L (Longest) - available to order only - only available in Size L(Longest)
    Nicolai GPI – Pinion gearbox, Gates Belt Drive equipped Geometron geometry/suspension – available in S/M/L (Long/Longer/Longest) - available to order only

    Bikes available for demo in 2016 are;

    All sizes of Mojo/Nicolai Geometron 27.5, S(Long) M(longer) L(Longest),
    M(Longer) Nicolai GPI (Pinion Geometron),
    L(Longest) Geometron 29
    Demo Options are;

    Option 1 -
    A full day at Bike Park Wales, with Chris and or a Mojo setup technician, bike size of your choice/bars/stems/suspension/wheel/tyre options/setups available depending on preferences/options discussed before the day.
    The day(s) will be uplifted and focussed on getting exactly the right set up for you. This day(s) is aimed at maximum time on the bike. Riding it is the only way to appreciate the sum of the parts and numbers!
    Cost: £200, refundable against a full bike or frame package purchase.

    Option 2
    A ride/day with Chris and or Mojo technician on Mojo local or nearby trails e.g. Forest of Dean This day is without all of the varied setup options offered by the uplifted day at Bike Park Wales, and is likely to involve pedalling up. The demo bike will be sized for you, it may be possible to have more than one size available if you are unsure/borderline (except GPI and 29), and it will be set up for your weight/height/style based on pre-discussion. Setup support during the ride.
    Cost: £0 but coffee and a cake might not go amiss

    Option 3
    A ride/day with either Chris or a Mojo nominated rider with good experience and knowledge of the bike on your local or nominated trails, within reason and the UK, on a demo bike sized for you and set up in terms of suspension based on pre-discussion. Setup support during the ride. Again likely to involve pedalling.
    Cost: £to be agreed -If significant travel/fuel/other costs are involved then some (non-refundable) charge will have to be made since its a fair bit of work to make happen. Timing will depend on location and mutual schedules.
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  35. #35
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    "Dear chain (or rear derailleur), I can't do this anymore. We've had this relationship for years and I am really exhausted of being the one to maintain it every single time things get gnarly. I do appreciate those times that you did your best to shift into things, but I am in this for the long haul and not at all keen to keep worrying about replacing you as an important part of my life."

    Today, a few of us finally wrote Dear John letters to chains and conventional drivetrains, and it's all thanks to the Nicolai Bikes ION GPI. The two builds that rolled out last night were taken to the trails for an inaugural test ride session, and all of us there who got to try them out have since found a whole new level of infatuation with mountain biking.
    The bike looks intimidating with its limousine-like wheelbase, and there is an almost definitive appeal about this bike with its Forward Geometry that is available in four different sizes. It does take a little getting used to, once you hop on and take on that first pedal stroke. But with more strokes taken, you find yourself hopelessly consumed by the entire experience the bike offers, from engineering aspects to the technological feats achieved with it.

    The drivetrain is impeccable. It stays reliable, feels out of this world, regardless of what we put it through. The new Pinion boxes are a step up from the earlier predecessors too!

    Here's the cold hard truth. It climbs and descends unbelievably well...
    Those are just some initial thoughts we have gathered on the bike, but we'll be sharing more in the coming week when we do more rides with them!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-12347923_10203522625025156_602650448415881269_n.jpg  

    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-12341081_10203522625145159_1808886588622410536_n.jpg  

    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-11227604_970069013063238_4336312003820057050_n.jpg  

    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-12347807_970500926353380_1474910306546477104_n.jpg  

    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-12347886_970501176353355_7820595388783254129_n.jpg  

    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-11219612_970500923020047_5817767730767197765_n.jpg  

    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-12346560_970500919686714_501945714611303125_n.jpg  

    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-12366407_970068883063251_6734114084388798933_n.jpg  

    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-12313561_970069003063239_5172349009527799271_n.jpg  

    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-12376027_970068879729918_1516377967147836565_n.jpg  

    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-img_4288.jpg  

    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-img_4296.jpg  


  36. #36
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    Squid69. I did have an Ion16 but a custom one which was closer to the Geometron than a std bike except the suspension was standard Ion16. The lever/curve of the geometron is a lot different to the standard bike. It changes how it feels massively.
    Whether that's a good or bad thing is down to personal preference. I personally prefer the GeoMetron lever/curve for what I like to ride.
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  37. #37
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    Hey Pilot,

    the linkage ratio thing is quite interesting, unfortunately N has no linkage ratio posted for the GPI/Geometron...

    Where do you feel the differences lie?

  38. #38
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    The Geometron is more progressive I think and specifically designed to work with an air shock.
    It feels much 'tighter' in the early part of the stroke, much firmer pedalling once sat at the sag point in the 3rd/4th gears at the rear with a 32t front, even more with a 34t front.

    It remains very progressive through the stroke but but is very smooth as you reach the end of the stroke. I get less pedal kickback despite the anti squat characteristics, this could be due to the different gear I am usually in when pedalling vs braking into corners.

    You can replace the stock lever with a GeoMetron lever but you also need to change the seat and compression stays. The down tube mounts are the same I believe. (I would have to confirm with Marcel)

    I would say overall it just feels more controlled when using an air shock. I have no external control compression set on mine, high or low. Only rebound.
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  39. #39
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    Here is nice video from mbr about Nicolai GPI:

    Is the Nicolai Ion GPI the most radical enduro bike ever created? (VIDEO) - MBR

    I think they exaggerate the weight issue in the video a little

  40. #40
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    They sure did exaggerate he weight of the gearbox and the bike.

    I'll weigh ours when its fully built and post a picture :-) Target is under 33lbs...
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    The Geometron is more progressive I think and specifically designed to work with an air shock.
    It feels much 'tighter' in the early part of the stroke, much firmer pedalling once sat at the sag point in the 3rd/4th gears at the rear with a 32t front, even more with a 34t front.

    It remains very progressive through the stroke but but is very smooth as you reach the end of the stroke. I get less pedal kickback despite the anti squat characteristics, this could be due to the different gear I am usually in when pedalling vs braking into corners.

    You can replace the stock lever with a GeoMetron lever but you also need to change the seat and compression stays. The down tube mounts are the same I believe. (I would have to confirm with Marcel)

    I would say overall it just feels more controlled when using an air shock. I have no external control compression set on mine, high or low. Only rebound.
    Thx for the input. I'm actually quite content with my X-Fusion Vector Air HLR at the rear, was just wondering how "big" the difference might be as I am very interested in a Geometron frame... my first production run 26er Ion16 is slightly messed up in terms of reach + stack. It just never felt right for me and I have done quite a bit of tweaking with an EC headset on top +25mm spacers and a 35mm rise bar, also played with 50mm, 40mm and 35mm stems. It's OK to ride, but far from brilliant

    Have to get a ride on a longer and longest Geometron, hopefully in March/April when we officially open our trail that we're building just now and Nicolai put that on their "Test Days" list.

  42. #42
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    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics

    Ok some updates news etc...

    First Nicolai will support a new WC Downhill team this year. On a little modified Geometron

    One Vision Global Racing Signs With Nicolai Bikes for 2016 - Pinkbike

    Exciting stuff, the team tested a lot of bikes before wanting to go this way, Mojo supporting too understandably.

    The Geometron is back in stock at Mojo.

    The 29er is available to test by booking and available to order only in Longest or longerer still sizes, but this also means you can tweak it a bit if desired when paying the welding jig upcharge. This doesn't apply a I don't think if just ordering a Longest 29 std. Check with Mojo.

    There will be some full demo days next year. Hopefully one in Scotland at Inners or Glentress in Feb with all the bikes there including a Longer GPI and the 29.

    I hope to get some pics up of the demo GPI after xmas with a build.
    It does look like unless I buy some new wheels I can't quite get it down to 15kg, the frameset is a touch heavier than informed but it does look like 15.3kg is possible with the build kit I had planned anyway.

    King hubs, whilst not the lightest, suit the GPI due to their quick engagement.
    Also running strong wheels, big discs, wide bars, tyres with puncture protection and a 150mm dropper.
    Last edited by the_pilot; 12-24-2015 at 05:07 AM.
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  43. #43
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    Hi the_pilot, if you don't mind what is your planned build spec for the GPI? Thanks.

  44. #44
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    I wanted to refine it a bit Slavdo to get weight as low as possible but also strong but here goes for now.
    Frame: Nicolai Geometron GPI
    Gearbox:Pinion 12 gearbox, 165mm forged crank.
    Shock: Fox Float X/X2 shock
    Fork: Fox Float a Factory 36, 180mm, 44mm offset Mojo modified (seals/fluids/neg spring)
    Headset: Works Components -1deg.
    Wheels:
    F:-Chris King Iso Disc, 20mm hub, 32x Sapim CX-Ray Spokes, DT Swiss brass nipples, Derby 40mm Carbon HD rim, DT Swiss tape, Schwalbe Nobby Nic 2.35, DD/Snakeskin, Trailstar TL tyre. 60mm sealant
    Wheels:
    R:-Chris King Iso Disc, 142x12, steel freehub, Spokes; 32x Sapim CX-Ray, Derby 40mm Carbon HD rim; Schwalbe Nobby Nic 2.25 DD/snakeskin, Pacestar TL, DT Swiss tape, 60mm sealant.
    Stem: Hope 35mm AM
    Seatclamp: Hope
    Seatpost: KS Lev Integra 150mm
    Saddle: Selle Italia SL Kit Carbonio
    Bars: Renthal Fatbar Carbon 780mm
    Grips: ESI
    Brakes:
    F: Hope Tech3 lever, Hope X2 caliper, 203mm Magura Storm SL disc, Hope 180mm adaptor.
    R: Hope Tech 3 lever, Hope X2 caliper, 180mm Magura Storm SL.

    Planned pedals are Xpedo Baldwin. Spds.

    Areas where I could go lighter without compromise are by using Ti bolts (all bolts are steel) but not sure I will bother! Maybe for the brake discs/stem/calipers.

    I could use a Hope race lever rather than tech 3 but the tech 3, whilst heavier has a nice lever bearing/feel and is tool free reach/bite adjust so for a demo bike ideal.

    In the future a Vecnum post when available.

    I could use a 350g Carbon rim from LB or Nextie and 250g/160g DT hubs (or even my Extralite hubs at 170g/86g) which would drop 320g and 470g and for me that would work fine but I am only 70kg. There will be riders of 100kg or more testing the bike and it would be a risk to use wheels like that.

    So I have to revise my weight up a bit for this bike to make sure it will be strong whoever is riding it.

    I also have to think a little of my wallet since this bike is for others to ride too, I have my 'normal Geometron!'

    Pics to follow. Here is part build..


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  45. #45
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    Thank you very much for the information. I want the GPI soo badly but I'll have to wait a bit longer.

    I am just not sure if benefits of pinion gearbox outweight the possible downsides/troubles (proprietary equipment, impossible to repair by myself, more expensive etc.).

    I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts/experience on the GPI. Enjoy the ride and I wish you Happy Christmas.

  46. #46
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    I don't think the proprietary parts should be a worry. The box being warrantied for 5 years no questions is good support, the belt is the only thing I think you would want a spare of.

    My main bike is still my 'normal' Geometron but I expect to get a lot of test miles on this GPI with demo's.

    It will be a good test as it is the same bike I tested before it was released and the same bike used by Nicolai for all of their demos last year, all the journo's and customers, so it has a lot of miles on it already. You will see that when I show some pics of the crank arms!

    Now we will run it through a British winter, it hasn't stopped raining for some time and the slither is plentiful, so overall it will be a good test bed for longevity and should give people confidence.
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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    ...
    I hope to get some pics up of the demo GPI after xmas with a build.
    It does look like unless I buy some new wheels I can't quite get it down to 15kg, the frameset is a touch heavier than informed but it does look like 15.3kg is possible with the build kit I had planned anyway...
    What is the frame's weight then?

  48. #48
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    @tatankainlondon I am not sure of the exact frame only weight but for the longer 7.5kg with the pinion ancillaries e.g belt, cogs, tensioner etc.
    Also things like the length of the gear cables makes a difference (50g) etc.
    I probably won't shorten them even though I think they are too long! However, it still doesn't 'feel' that weight. 15.5/34lb for a long, gearbox AM bike, with pedals, capable of DH is hardly heavy!
    It rides light. the front and rear wheels are similar weights.


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  49. #49
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    Not for a second I suggested this bike was too heavy. I am just interested in the real vs quoted weight numbers. Would you mind confirming, whether the 7.5kg is with or without the rear shock?

  50. #50
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    7.5kg is without shock but without shock but with drivetrain! So not a usual comparison.
    Longer Frame, pinion box, crank arms, front sprocket, rear sprocket, belt, tensioner, bash guard, shifter, cables, snubber, shock hardware.

    You can add another 500g for an X2 slightly less for a Float X I think.

    So 8kg Frame, shock, drivetrain.
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  51. #51
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    15.39kg/33.8lb.

    Not really anywhere else to save significant weight without compromise in my mind.
    I mentioned there's -100g you could lose in the hubs without any great issue with something like a Tune or American Classic.
    -50g with a Syntace Magaforce stem (I have that on my 'normal' Geometron
    Rims are already only 465g Carbon so no lighter there in my view.
    Vecnum Post around -70g.

    I'm happy at this. It's a good strong, light in the right places build.
    The Long would be 15kg with this build.

    Some setup to do on the rear shock as the back needs a bit more low speed compression and/or use the climb switch and rebound than the standard bike to control pedalling and calm the back down. It's very lively with the rear wheel weighing so little, it's close to the front weight. Anti squat is not as high as the std Geometron.

    For demo's I can swop the shock between the Float X and the X2 I have on my std bike.




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  52. #52
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    Hi the_pilot, the bike looks stunning.

    In my case the bike would end up around 16 kg. I prefer Maxxis tires (about 400-500 grams heavier than yours) and more powerful brakes (Hope Tech V4). I think the 9 speed version of pinion might be sufficient for me and I could save a little bit of weight. I am not obsessed by weight but nevertheless it is importat to me as I have to carry my bike to get to some of the trails I ride. Based on my experience the 15 kg bike is just about the upper limit.

  53. #53
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    NN front and rear??? Have fun in the mud.

  54. #54
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    New Nobby Nic 2015 loamranger, allegedly pretty good in the mud, in fact all round, different pattern to previous versions, we shall see. If not, I'll put them on a different bike and fit either the DHR/MM combo or the quest/charge.

    I was going to put some Storms on but these seem like a good compromise for multi condition.

    Don't forget I rode Staunton and FOD in the slop with a Rock razor and had an absolute gas. 😀
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  55. #55
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    @slavdo, I've ridden all sorts of steep and long in the Alps and Spain with X2.s and xtr trail brakes and big 203/183 rotors and never needed more brake, I can lock the wheels, front or back with sticky 42a tyres, once you are at that point more power is no use, what did the Pirelli advert say, 'power s nothing without control'
    You won't have to slow down once you get one anyway,😀
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  56. #56
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    Hmmm. Good luck. Tried them on the back I didn't get on with them. Fronts will be a disaster IMO. But I know you like to ride loose and wild, so you might like them.

    For me I have MM front and Michelin back. Bit slow but I can count on them in these conditions.

  57. #57
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    What puzzles me is how in this day and age with all the testing mfrs do tyres can still be so polarising
    I hate high rollers with a passion but like ardents.
    I was worried about profile on the Derby's with Storms/Dirty Dans. I don't really want to put different wheels on it. I'll try some though perhaps.
    In the rear they must have more grip than an RR so are bound to be fine. We shall see on the front.


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  58. #58
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    I also hated Hand Dampfs when everyone else loved them up!


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  59. #59
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    I have had a very negative experience with Schwalbe tires. Poor quality (side knobs were tearing off after a few rides) and they were very easy to cut in a rocky terrain. I threw away a brand new Hans Dampf after second ride when I cut the rear tire. I guess that Schwalbe tires just don't suit my riding style.

  60. #60
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    I've had mixed results. Love the Magic Mary on the front and Rock Razor rear. Maxxis are usually my go to tyre, Minion DHF 2 in the rear and Mary front is great. Also like the Minion on the front.
    But sometimes can be very draggy on long rides.

    Will give these guys a go. I also rather like the new Mavic tyres but again overkill for quite a bit of my riding.

    I can imagine a Minion front with Minion SS rear being good.
    Once Specialized storms come back in stock I'll probably out some of them on!" The way the weather is shaping up!


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  61. #61
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    I find this very interesting what JP (who has a lot of experience) has to say and how Jack responds too.
    A different way of getting across some aspects I have been trying to convey before a demo on the Geometron or when answering questions after (sometimes natural) conclusions drawn based on potential rider's experiences when seeing headline or out of context angles. The Geometron is most definitely a package, not just a frame. It allows you to be more dynamic in the bike not less you can feel the suspension working with you and thus the trail, you get feedback from the frame and suspension, but that's very different to just feeling the trail....can't wait to see it on the WC DH circuit.
    Jack Reading on Nicolai 2016 ? ALine Coaching

  62. #62
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    excellent reading... also really excited to see how that WC DH project progresses

  63. #63
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    I was hoping I could get some opinions on a couple of questions. Can the bike be kept in a straight-ish line at slow speed, such as on a skinny trail with a dropoff, or on some of that slow skinny North Shore type stuff?

    I ask because I'd been trying to have this geometry concept, without going custom, 15 years ago with a hydroformed Ellsworth Dare as a trail bike. I found it difficult to control at slow speed and is the only bike I've ever ridden that I think threw me off the side of one of my skinny local trails going uphill. It had a slack seat tube angle unlike this design.

    I like trying different concepts and like going fast sometimes, but I equally like crawling slow sometimes. Second question is might I still be a good candidate for this bike if I don't live and die by the stopwatch? I had a Process 153 with short chainstays I liked and thought was precise line-choice-wise. And I demoed an SB6C that I thought was great, but the Geometron intrigues me.

  64. #64
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    Going slow in a straight line on a Geometron is no problem at all, plenty stable, no more wander than any other bike.
    And YES. It's just a great handling, fun, all round bike. Sure it's very very fast if you are, but it's a flattering bike for all abilities. Very few people that have bought the bike like and die by the stopwatch. They do however all LOVE corners


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  65. #65
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    Thanks pilot. I appreciate the response. I'm no pro in corners, but I'm pretty sure I fall in the camp of loving them when I'm on wheels.

  66. #66
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    Proper shakedown spin at the weekend. Faultless and fun.
    More thoughts forming..




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  67. #67
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    Let us hear those thoughts then...

  68. #68
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    I'm forming them!


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  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    I'm forming them!
    Such a teaser...

  70. #70
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    Mostly how much I like it, how it doesn't feel heavy, how great the rear suspension is and how useful it is to change loads of gears when not pedalling.
    And how QUIET it is. So quiet.
    But I will no doubt documents some more detailed musings as we go along...


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  71. #71
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    More riding of GPI and GeoMetron. I measured all the angles this week with a digital inclinometer.
    The GPI is currently 61deg HA 78deg SA. The GeoMetron 62deg/77.5deg.

    The difference is noticeable. The GeoMetron feels much more neutral to ride at very slow speed (Not that that happens very often) you can feel the willingness of the GPI to fall in more due to the increased flop factor. It isn't noticeable climbing however, which I think is due to the increased seat angle.

    It has a beneficial effect on turn in on the brakes, its very easy to turn in on the brakes the slacker bike in comparison and you can keep the tyre loaded.
    Also noticeable that you do need to be a bit more agressive to make the front work comparably to the GeoMetron at 62deg but it feels very good.

    Tuning of the X2 has resulted in a good compromised of pedalling and supple suspension performance. That is a stand out feature of the GPI, it does maintain speed through rough sections more easily and takes square edged hits superbly. Just 2 clicks of LSC and 1 HSC with 18 HSR and 4 LSR and the rear is nicely tamed for pedalling.
    It has been faultless in the mud and crap in the UK too, its nice not worrying about cleaning it or wearing it out!

    The next stage is to drop a -2deg headset in the GeoMetron to see the effect of running it at 60deg. Chris Porter has been testing in Spain and reckons it is fantastic.
    I will reserve judgement based on my experience so far. It does seem to still get better with some advantages if the GPI at 61 is to be taken as the example but it is also moving ever closer to the better when pushing hard and aggressive end of the spectrum i.e. racing. We don't all race all the time.
    I fear that 60deg may be too far, but we shall see, if it is then flipping the trail key to bring it back a little steeper is the next option.

    I will say its amazing how quickly I got used to 61deg!

    Worth looking here for some sneak pics of the development of the DHbike for 2016 too.

    https://www.facebook.com/Nicolai-Bikes-282678971751628/
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  72. #72
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    The_pilot may I ask how active is the GPI when climbing? I am asking because I prefer more active suspension designs which absorb bumps when climbing. I can live with less efficient suspension as I can use a lockout feature on the shock to reduce suspension movement on smooth climbs. One of the advantages of the GPI (or any other fullsuspension bike with pinion gearbox) in my opinion is the ability to tune the amount of antisquat/pedal kickback by changing the size of the chainring (in case one chooses to use chain instead of the belt) and rear sprocket without affecting the overall gearing ratio.

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    It is active Slavdo but supportive at sag point, not as supportive as the std bike though rear is more supple on GPI.
    Anti squat not as much, you can tune within reason but the belt restricts it a little in terms of length. Chain has more scope for that but other disadvantages of the chain.



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  74. #74
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    Slavdo, for technical climbing I don't think it gets any better than this, the rear suspension action with such a light wheel is stunning.
    I was following my friend at the weekend, he was on the GPI, I my standard bike, the suspension on the standard bike is stunning but through rough sections the GPI is visibly smoother and loses less speed, that may also be because of the gearbox but it just seems to track the ground very easily.

    I wrote to Pinion this week outlining the case for a trigger shifter and why I think it is the single biggest barrier to wider acceptance in the mtb market.

    We have further weight reductions possible with the 9spd gearbox and wider hubs with smaller freewheels, but the comment I constantly get is 'when there is a trigger shifter'

    Certainly in the UK it's not possible to use it to its maximum due to not being able to shift dynamically whilst descending/braking. It is something you get used to but again in mud and rain its harder than it needs to be to use the grip shift.

    A trigger with a 3 or 4 gear sweep in either direction would be perfect. Electronic maybe even better...

    Lets see what they say...
    Last edited by the_pilot; 01-27-2016 at 07:51 AM.
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    Thank you for the information the_pilot. This is what I wanted to hear (active suspension when climbing)

    I personally don't mind using grip shift at all. I usually don't shift gears when riding technical trails.

    As for the 9 speed vs 12 speed gearbox it is a little bit difficult for me to decide because 9 speed gearbox offers more than enough gear range, it's a little bit lighter and maybe slightly cheaper. On the other hand I am not sure if I can get away with such big steps between gears.

  76. #76
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    Electric gear changes on GPI would be great. Good to know all the positive feedback re suspension characteristics, should be very handy in the UK, especially on tracks where you need to keep your momentum.

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    The downside of the electric option is it would almost certainly not be a retrofit option and would require a new gearbox. a huge outlay, although only one as expensive as a high end groupset but one that the pinion is specifically designed to avoid.

    I think for the foreseeable future any decision on the GPI should be made on the basis of accepting the GripShift.

    Just to be clear its very effective and easy to use, its just that I think it could be taken to another level with a trigger! Unfortunately it is not something our friends at Nicolai have any control over. They would dearly like that as an option...
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  78. #78
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    Gripshift is all fine with me. I have no preference. There are specific riding conditions where Gripshift is actually a better option, at least in my opinion. I have had two Rohloff equipped bikes so I understand the mechanics of gear-changes. But then the maintenance is limited to the minimum. I lost count of times when people would report either a broken rear mech hanger or the entire rear mech, or any combination of those two. Think about the lower section of the Megavalanche track and the huge clay/mud bath that has taken down so many guys...

    The idea of electric shifting is a good one, but not a deal-breaker for me. I would assume it would cost a lot of money, on top of already an expensive piece of kit.

    It is also very impressive how adaptable these two bikes are in relation to the head tube angles. I am waiting with anticipation for more. GPI with 61deg HA 78deg SA, the GeoMetron with 62deg/77.5deg. Not that long time ago these would simply be called and utter madness

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    More riding of GPI and GeoMetron. I measured all the angles this week with a digital inclinometer.
    The GPI is currently 61deg HA 78deg SA. The GeoMetron 62deg/77.5deg.
    Hi, the_pilot, how did you achieve 61 deg HA and 78deg SA? Angle headset alone or some other mods?

  80. #80
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    Just a single -1 headset.
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  81. #81
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    I would have thought that ION GPI has 63.5 degree HA so -1 degree headset takes it to 62.5 degree HA. Or is the test bike with a different head angle when compared to the standard frame?

  82. #82
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    Lots of things influence the HA. The 63.5deg reference is with a 715mm diameter Conti trail King. Many tyre wheel combinations are smaller than that. I use a Magic Mary front and usually a semi slick rear (Rock Razor or Minion SS) but a Minion DHF2 is 705mm, the MM is 720mm so this changes the HA, much like using a different fork. Then I am using the 180mm fork modification too.

    The Std GeoMetron as I use it is 62deg HA when I measure it using a digital inclinometer/protractor.
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  83. #83
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    When you say fork modification you just mean putting on a 160, 170 or 180 fork right? You don't need to do anything special do you? And do you think 180 is the way to go over 160?

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    The forks modifications are done by Mojo and include lifting the 170mm standard fork to 180mm height. That is a simple mod can be done by any owner by removing a spacer.

    Mojo also do some internal modifications to increase the size of the negative spring over standard, change the seals used for aftermarket ones and also the lubricant blend and quantities used.

    The big changes to performance are the height and consequent ability to increase the size of the negative spring which makes the fork super plush but still super progressive.

    The seals and fluids are marginal, but noticeable, gains and come with a penalty of more frequent servicing.

    Although the fork is set to a height of 180mm the changes mean that it will never see more than about 165mm of travel.

    The 160mm Fox 36 can't be increased to 180mm. Other 160mm forks have similar a2cs to the Fox 170mm.
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  85. #85
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    That's a different answer than I expected. Thanks!

    If I may ask another opinion of you or anyone here, though I don't really expect an answer for this one. I was looking at the geo chart for Pole bicycles' Evolink 150 and it looks like they use 18" chainstays vs 17.5" on the Geometron. Do you think there would be any merit at all to experimenting with longer chainstays?

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    Longer chainstays can be of benefit but it depends what you are riding and how big you/the bike is.

    There is some work going on to look at how the chainstays could be made adjustable on the Geometron. I asked about this sometime ago on my previous customs. It is not an easy option to implement due to the need to maintain correct alignment.

    Chris did many experiments with chainstay lengths up to 460mm and 445mm was considered to be the best compromise for most riding for climbing/descending and maneuverability. However if you were only downhilling then 460mm could be better.

    It is possible to specify longer chainstays in a custom version.

    So the answer is there may be some benefit, but it depends on the rider, style of riding, size and use.

    If Nicolai are able to develop an adjustable system, then I'm sure that would be great. For now it has to be a personal decision.

    The Pole geometry is a direct result of their conversations with Chris last year...
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  87. #87
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    Once again more info than I expected. Thanks much!

    I have an XC 29er from 2002 or so that has 18" chainstays. It also has a steepish HA and shortish TT. One thing I do know is that long chainstays alone don't stop a bike from making hairpins. I can get that bike around some tight local turns. Not sure how a long and slack front end would pair with that though.

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    Tight turns aren't a problem!



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  89. #89
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    Can I ask another question for The_Pilot? (I have tons, but I will ask 1 for now) Do you think there is enough clearance for a 27.5+ tire in the rear or even a 29 2.25? If that is the case I might avoid a very technical conversion to 29 that involves a 125 teeth belt and a lot of design/rapid prototyping/milling.

    My GPI frame will arrive week 15 if all goes well. So looking forward to it. Sold my last Nicolai this Christmas, currently "in between N's" on a Trek 4900 26 inch, it's uhm... different.

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    Neohammer, could please share some more details what kind of conversion would you like to achieve?

    If I buy the GPI one day I would like to have three wheelsets - one wheelset for serious all mountain riding, one wheelser for road (for getting better fintess in the spring) and one very light wheelset for all day 100+ km long XC rides. It might be interesting experiment to try a light 29 inch XC wheelset with 2 inch tires on GPI (if it fits of course).

  91. #91
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    I don't own a car, so my bike needs to do everything, including daily commute on flat as a pancake roads, but also trips in the Ardennes or straight trough the woods where there is no trail at all, or in a vulcano, or on the moon. My previous Nicolai was 29 and I loved it, but I also wanted to try the GPI system, so I got informed 6 months ago that a Helius 29 GPI would become available. Perfect as for pure rolling nothing beats a 29'er. That Helius however never made it, so I asked for a custom frame from Nicolai. They declined the idea of a 29'er GPI for now. Mainly because they can't guarantee it will work as good as the 27.5 (longer belt, chain-stay issues etc.) If it would be rushed out or not work well their reputation and that of Gates could be harmed. I understand that. It might become available next year.

    So my plan B became plan A: Project Hyperion, or Hyper Ion, cheesy, but I'm Dutch.

    In short and in "too simple": I now ordered a standard "longer" 27.5 version, when it arrives the chainstay and seatstays will be removed, they will be sent to a 3D scanning company, they will scan and sent them back and also give me digital files. I load the files in my 3D package and start designing longer versions of both, using the originals as overlay, guidance. I have to do some strength calculation, to see if it holds up. I then print the parts out of plastic for a testfit, if it's all ok (probably not in one go) I have the parts milled. Single aluminum pieces would be my preference. Add a 125 teeth belt the conversion is done. If all of that fails, I still can mount the originals and ride a very cool 27.5 bike. I know Chris Porter likes his bikes playful, I'm just glad if I arrive safely, in (on) a tank, that does not care what kind of weather it is or what the terrain type is.

  92. #92
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    Neohammer, 1. I'm speechless! 2. Respect. 3. Don't do all of this until you have tried the bike, and done some miles as it is! I have designed 29s, the Ion15 was my baby, I had AC29 custom evolutions before that. This bike is different. Chris doesn't design his bikes playful either, they are to go fast!
    The weight distribution is different, it rolls much better than a std 27.5 as there is less weight on the rear wheel only, it is better distributed. A friend swears it's similar to his previous 29er Mondraker crafty (loan ranger on here)
    Just a 650b touring tyre is likely to be pretty damn good for commuting, you can run a road tubular if you wanted (tho it could look a bit odd)
    I can have a look at the fit, it will be really tight I think for a 29 or 27.5+ but it's possible. The GPI has more clearance than std bike. However not to ride properly off-road, I'm sure there would be clearance issues to the ST unless travel was reduced.
    It would be much much cheaper to buy a disposable commuter bike!

    I have both 29 and 27.5+ 2.8 I can try so I'll have a go for you this weekend but I think you'd be better with a slick 27.5 tyre.
    Very interesting though, sounds exactly like the kind of crazy out there thought processes I have in quiet moments!
    Pictures to follow...


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  93. #93
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    Thank you so much The_Pilot, that would really help me out!

    I'm still in doubt about this conversion as well. It might be too much, but it's also good to learn new things. What I don't want is an invalid solution or a destructive approach. If there would be far too little "debris" clearance or a ST rub on flat-out, it's a no go. If my own solution to fit a 29'er would be non valid I will drop it as well. I calculated an overhead of 7,5mm that is in essence not needed. (But it's there because of a default belt length.) If I can win 8.5mm somewhere in the design a 122T belt might fit.

    I tried disposable commuter bikes, even belted versions. They are not compatible with my riding style. (Or lack thereof.) It's all nice and calm until I start to hunt a Pedelec. Also I have a nice forest climb/descend at the end of my commute, but it can be extremely muddy. (I have been on MTB's for everything since 1991, so I'm sort of used to the extra work.)

    Thanks again!

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot
    The Pole geometry is a direct result of their conversations with Chris last year...
    Sneaking back in, in between the custom rear end discussion, I was continuing to think about it and wonder if Pole went with 18" chainstays because their double suspension links are taking up room in there and Chris' 17.5" is plenty long enough for the amount of stability he wants. Seems good enough for Yeti too.

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    Chris has tested longer chainstays and there are some benefits, but also some downsides too. Adjustable chainstays would be the 'daddy' I reckon, but not as easy as you'd think to pull off I reckon.
    Chris did have 460's on his bike at one point.
    Ultimately the GPI/Geometron production lengths are what was considered to be a good compromise for stability, weight distribution, climbing and manoeuvrability.


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  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    .....
    I can have a look at the fit, it will be really tight I think for a 29 or 27.5+ but it's possible. The GPI has more clearance than std bike. However not to ride properly off-road, I'm sure there would be clearance issues to the ST unless travel was reduced.
    It would be much much cheaper to buy a disposable commuter bike!

    I have both 29 and 27.5+ 2.8 I can try so I'll have a go for you this weekend but I think you'd be better with a slick 27.5 tyre.
    Very interesting though, sounds exactly like the kind of crazy out there thought processes I have in quiet moments!
    Pictures to follow...
    How did this test go? Any pictures available?

  97. #97
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    I'm curious about that too, but I don't want to rush anyone.

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    I've been busy, sorry, but looking at it I am almost certain its a no go. I will do the actual test though!
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  99. #99
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    No worries! I would have canceled the entire project if it wasn't for the ION 29 Geometron. Waiting for a frame, trying to get all the other parts before that. (Except for wheels, tires and axles obviously.) Syntace helped me out big time, love these guys.

  100. #100
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    So you've gone for the 29 anyway and I don't need to do the test?
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  101. #101
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    Well the fact that Nicolai/Mojo tested with a 29'er version with Geometron sort of justified my attempt to try the same on a GPI version as well. At this moment I'm still in the race to do the conversion to 29. If you eyeballed it on a tight fit in the current stays, than that's good enough for me. It's too tight and I have to bring out the CAD tools. :P (*start the A-team music here.) I will quite soon start a topic about it. I'm still very curious what a 27.5+ tire would do, either in 2.8 or 3.0

  102. #102
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    I think a 2.8 or 3.0 27.5+ tyre will make it bouncy but not in a good way!..and not a little draggy from my experience with those tyres, I don't like them at all.. Not something I would want to add to a GPi, But everyone is different and that makes the world interesting. They though Chris was mad....
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  103. #103
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    I do fear that a bit, turning it into something it was not meant to be. 29 2.4 is probably the largest I will go, but if I'm going to do all that chainstay work, I might as well make 3.0 fit. (Wider triangles are stronger! :P)

  104. #104
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    Here is mine. Custom ION/Geometron. It's a longest Geometron but with a 30mm drop on the seat tube and custom Fox 36 from MOJO SUSPENSION ::: Home. Big thanks to gravity-sports
    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-image1.jpg
    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-image2.jpg
    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-image1-1-.jpg
    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-image1-2-.jpg
    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-image2-1-.jpg

  105. #105
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    Nice ride! Quite sure you scare away a lot of bikers with this monster! (I like that we can use the term monster without degrading its meaning in this case.)

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    What's the deal with everyone going belt drive instead of chain with the Pinion?

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    PUNKY, its lighter, lower maintenance, longer lasting...restricted lengths is the only downside requiring careful design.
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  108. #108
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    I was testing a modified Longest/L version of the GeoMetron at the weekend with Chris.

    Longer Swing arm running a 222 shock for 175mm rear travel and a good curve. -1 on the head angle and the full 180mm fork as usual.

    I loved it, was slightly concerned I wouldn't be able to move it around etc, given I up until now I have ridden a Longer, but I fancied trying to push even harder on the front, but no such problems, I could really load the front and get tons of grip, was great. Moving it around and cornering was briliant. Harder to lift the front for me, (i'm 5'10.5") but I am pretty poor at that anyway. I need more practice. I could do it but I was clumsy.

    The rear set up allowed you to carry great speed through roots and chunder. it did take a little more getting up to speed on the pedally stuff.

    It's not such a great 'trail' bike as the std bike. But the idea is to allow you to either swop shocks (by flipping the chip to account for the length) Or we are also checking how the 222mm shock (216mm std) feels with sufficient volume spacers to increase the progressiveness and reduce the travel to 155mm for normal use. Key is to see if it is possible to replicate the feel with the shorter length shock.

    This setup allows you to set the bike up for either the alps or uplifted trips but then easily return it to being a normal everyday trail bike.

    The longer travel version pedals just as well as the 155mm version when seated, but the softer initial travel is noticeable when honking out the saddle whereas the std bike is much firmer in that aspect, but thats expected and partly the point.

    The longer swingarm will be available as an option. Something to consider of you do big alps trips or even if you are a very big guy.

    I wouldn't run it in the long travel config unless I had access to good descents, but the ability to swop between is great.

    The latest batch is about to come into stock now too and there will be a limited number of dealers (geographically spread) that will have access to/carry bikes this year, for example Leisure Lakes included the bikes in a demo recently at Cannock.
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  109. #109
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    I have found an article in German in which efficiency of Pinion gearbox is discussed and compared to the other types of transmission systems:

    Tretlagergetriebe Pinion P1.18*? Wirkungsgrad-Messungen an Nabenschaltungen*? Teil*3 | Fahrradzukunft - Ausgabe 20

    I new that Pinion is not as efficient as a standard drivetrain but efficiency quite below 90% (including losses in chain) is very disappointing for me.

    Note: thin line in the graph represents 50 W output, thick line represents 200 W output.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-pinion-efficiency.jpg  


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    Thats sounds fair to me Slavdo. You can feel it at times, particularly in higher gears, much less so in lower gears. I think it comes down to if the advantages outweigh the disadvantages to each user.
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    If you come from an Alfine (or Nexus) hub, the Pinion does feel a lot more direct and for me it also feels like very little power is lost in the drivetrain. I think the feeling of a drivetrain being effective is quite important. I read this article too, his measurements are not entirely precise because of the test setup. (Slipping belt at high torque, an electro motor as power input etc.) Don't want to sound like a Pinion fanboy (but I am lol) but the real life effects are not so dramatic as this graph is showing. Edit: However I now need to get me a Rohloff as I have no experience with it. :P

    P.s. Pilot, the bike you tested was it a "normal" Geometron or a GPI? Sounds like this bike could end up in the Gravity/Freeride section. (For my own riding style the stock GPI is already enough, if I ever grow a pair and start jumping this might be interesting.) Frame is almost done I hope! :P

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    I totally agree the_pilot with your statement regarding advantages/disadvantages and personal preferences.

    I was just a little bit surprised by the test results that Pinion gearbox's efficiency is lower than the Rohloff's since the Pinion guys claim the exact opposite on their website. Maybe it is beacuse of inaccurate testing method as Neohammer mentioned.

    I have also found this thread on mtb-news.de forum:
    Erfahrungen mit Argon TR Pinion 1.12 mit Gates Riemen ? | MTB-News.de

    There is a guy who bought Argon TR with Pinion and Gates in order to use it for commuting. He said that he was 15 minutes slower with the Argon TR with pinion when compared to his old commuter. When riding his old commuter one trip takes him approx 48 minutes. I think this is quite significant output difference and it made me search for some information on Pinion efficiency.

    That being said I am not trying to hate the pinion gearbox (I like it a lot actually) but the above mentioned information made me think a bit about efficiency loss of the gearbox when compared to conventional drivetrain.

  113. #113
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    I understand the concern, I was also very worried. In 2012 I dropped 3800 on a Helius Pinion frame without even knowing how it would feel. Coming from a horrendous Alfine hub, I was very afraid it would have that same soggy/draggy feeling especially at the higher gears. (It was as if you where pumping 50% into the hub, that was on a sporty commuter bike btw.) I have my bike for everything so I commuted on the Helius as well, after 12000 km I never had the feeling the gearbox was an issue. If you are considering a Pinion, perhaps you can test it somewhere, I think that is the only way to know if it's for you. My "old" one is for sale on bikemarkt.de (By the guy I sold it too) Nicolai Helius AC Pinion Gr L | Bikemarkt.MTB-News.de The box is as new, as it was serviced at Pinion directly after I sold it. I'm still in the loop as the buyer is a co-worker of mine.

    I now for while went back to an entry level 26 inch Trek and I'm seriously getting depressed by it. I can't wait much longer for my next Nicolai. I canceled the plan to convert it to 29, too much time is already lost and I have new projects coming up for my work.

  114. #114
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    Thank you for information Neohammer. If I buy a pinion frame in future it will definitely be the ION GPI ;-) I'll just have to wait a bit longer until I pull the trigger since currently I have to invest my money elsewhere. In the meantime I'll be collecting as much information about Pinion as possible

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    PUNKY, its lighter, lower maintenance, longer lasting...restricted lengths is the only downside requiring careful design.
    The other downside of a belt drive is efficiency
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  116. #116
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    Hi,
    Last week my GPI was delivered, 3 weeks before announcement (perhaps due to missing color?;-)
    Built it up immediately and tried it ignoring the rain: great!
    Uphill like my old Helius AC, downhill way faster than my ion18 (which is running in 200mm config with DH fork!) and quiet!!
    Shock does a great job, no need for me to update yet
    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-imageuploadedbytapatalk1460905675.117601.jpg
    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-imageuploadedbytapatalk1460905699.194543.jpgNicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-imageuploadedbytapatalk1460905728.845401.jpg

  117. #117
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    Hi drurs, the bike looks perfect. How are you satisfied with the Mattoc's performance on the GPI?

  118. #118
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    Very nice looking! Can you reveal what size this is?

  119. #119
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    Hi slavdo,
    I upgraded with the irt kit, up to now I'm very happy with the fork (but to be honest, only 3h riding very muddy trails up to now..)
    Size is "longer"

  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by drurs View Post
    Size is "longer"
    Thanks! One more question: Does this one have a lower than normal seat tube?

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    Hi Neohammer,
    No, that's the normal config, I have a 150mm LEV installed, still about 5cm left to push down manually (I'm 1,83m)

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    No more info on the 29er besides PinkBike :/

  123. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUNKY View Post
    No more info on the 29er besides PinkBike :/
    What do you want to know Punky? I have been mailing a bit with Nicolai's engineer about a possible 29'er version of the GPI. (Not happening any time soon...) A "normal" Ion/Geometron 29 is available.

  124. #124
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    ^I'm not sure what I want to know.

    Sort of interested in the Mojo versions of these bikes, unless I could get one sans shock.

    I think this may've been the article I was looking for

    My largest issue with the Pinion is the grip shift. Have't used one on a bike since the 90s. Little disappointed Pinion doesn't have a trigger shifter or is working on something like effigear is.

  125. #125
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    Punky, I have a strong suspicion Pinion will develop a trigger, the grip shift is the single biggest issue riders have when they try the GPI and I have done wuite a lot of demo's now with riders that just want the bike (who are already willing use/compromise) but also those who are considering it alongside the standard bike. For most of those riders, the increase in weight is not an issue, the gear change a little hard to get use to but mainly they struggle with the grip shift in variable terrain.

    I'll see if I can get the current Mojo 29er geometry from Chris and put it up on a separate thread.
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  126. #126
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    Thanks.

    Look forward (pardon the terrible pun,) to seeing the numbers.

    I really like the ODI TLD grips, before that the Peaty ones. That is a large issue with a grip. And that I really like X.0 triggers

  127. #127
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    Here is a linkage analysis of Nicolai Mojo Geometron:

    Nicolai Geometron 2016 - Linkage Design

  128. #128
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    The 29er GeoMetron uses an identical head angle and bottom bracket height (Although the BB drop is larger due to the 29er wheels, while the chainstay is just 5mm longer than std at 450mm and the reach of a longer is just 7mm shorter.
    The chainstay is the same as my current modified (But available to order) bike shown below.

    The 29er uses a standard 29er 51mm offset fork, this compensates for the higher front axle, resulting in a trail figure that's almost identical.

    Interesting reading in the Linkage blogspot. Chris does some interesting things with the shocks too to match.

    All are also now supplied with the originally intended Float X2, which wasn't quite available at the time the bike was released.

    This is my current version.

    It has a lower TT/ST than previously. The Longer has a 450mm ST, the Longest a 470mm and the new XL model 490mm. The Long is unchanged.


    Mine has a 450mm swingarm to allow for a 222 x 70 shock. This allows me to run up to 175mm of travel at the rear with a nice curve, very slightly different to the one analyzed.

    IMG_4112 by Phil, on Flickr" width="549">

    We have also tested tuning to reduce the travel of the shock using spacers. i have mine set to approx 155mm of travel for trail riding and a similar curve to std but with slightly more small bump compliance.

    When I ride big stuff I switch to 175mm rear and adjust the front fork progression (180mm fork) to match the rear.

    The swingarm allows this change without any changes to the overall geometry or BB height.

    It's also running -1deg compared to standard and measures in at 60.8deg HA with a Minion DHFII 2.35 rear and Magic Mary 2.35 front tyre.
    WB is 1333mm.

    It's fantastic for me, so much confidence in cornering and so much grip..

    2016

    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-screen-shot-2016-04-21-15.35.30.jpg
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  129. #129
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    Hi the_pilot, are you still riding the Nicolai ION GPI or have you changed it for this new version of Mojo Geometron?

  130. #130
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    I'm a lucky boy Slavdo, because I'm doing Demos, development and supporting both Mojo and Nicolai with feedback on the bikes I ride both👍 So still riding the GPI regularly, still -1deg😊
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  131. #131
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    I am sooooo jealous of you You are doing a great job. Please keep us informed

  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    I'm a lucky boy Slavdo, because I'm doing Demos, development and supporting both Mojo and Nicolai with feedback on the bikes I ride both👍 So still riding the GPI regularly, still -1deg😊
    do you have a preference between the GPI and the traditional drivetrain?

  133. #133
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    Hi
    I am ready to buy Nicolai geometron

    I am 170cm tall
    What size should I choose ?

    I am riding Norco range a7.1 S size 2015,

    And I am ready to join the Nicolai family this weekend😍

    Dealer suggest me to buy not so long (xs size), with 35mm stem

    But there no sample frame in my country

    I don't know is it really fit for me..

    And I looking to install the fox float x2, but not sure that the xs frame have enough space to install.


    Sorry for my bad English 😓

  134. #134
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    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics

    Hi Garnetchu,


    I would put you squarely in the long/S size. So 620mm ETT size and with 35mm stem.

    Your Range has a 60mm stem which means the effective TT with stem is 572mm+60mm =632mm
    The Nicolai will be 655mm or +23mm
    The reach on your range is 398mm so 458 mm with stem.
    Your Nicolai will be 520mm

    There is plenty of room for an X2 (see picture of a Long/S below)

    I would suggest you get the Fox 36 in 180mm and make the Mojo modifications or have it supplied like that. It makes for a fantastic match to the rear suspension set up and the correct head angle.

    I'm sure you will love it. My friend is the same size as you (actually 3cm taller) this is him with his bike complete with 180mm fork and x2.



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  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    Hi Garnetchu,


    I would put you squarely in the long/S size. So 620mm ETT size and with 35mm stem.

    Your Range has a 60mm stem which means the effective TT with stem is 572mm+60mm =632mm
    The Nicolai will be 655mm or +23mm
    The reach on your range is 398mm so 458 mm with stem.
    Your Nicolai will be 520mm

    There is plenty of room for an X2 (see picture of a Long/S below)

    I would suggest you get the Fox 36 in 180mm and make the Mojo modifications or have it supplied like that. It makes for a fantastic match to the rear suspension set up and the correct head angle.

    I'm sure you will love it. My friend is the same size as you (actually 3cm taller) this is him with his bike complete with 180mm fork and x2.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Thank you so much🙇🏻

    How about XS (Not so long)?

    ETT 600 with 35mm stem
    Reach 465 with stem=500

    Is this not fit for me??

    Thank you again

  136. #136
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    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics

    Well, I personally wouldn't put you on the XS.
    If it felt slightly too long for pedalling when you get it (I am confident it won't) I would suggest either a 30mm stem (Syntace or similar) or a 25mm (Pacenti) or even a 20mm (OnOff) and adjust headtube spacers to suit. You could even use either an angleset or a reach adjust headset for another 5mm adjustment, but I would not put you on a smaller bike than the Long.
    Personally, I would suggest the S/Long with a 30mm Syntace stem.
    Between that and the saddle you would get comfortable to pedal I'm certain. The reach is no problem for you I assure you once you begin to ride.
    It may take a few rides to adjust how much you can weight the front wheel (a lot!) but for some it feels natural immediately.


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  137. #137
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    This is mine

    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-20160329_065758...jpg

  138. #138
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    Nice Chamua. Someone other than Chris running 40's. At 180mm?


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  139. #139
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    Nice Chamua. Someone other than Chris running 40's. At 180mm?


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  140. #140
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    Hey the_pilot; first thing cheers for the thread, been reading it through trying to get an opinion of the bike. If you have a moment, would be great to get your opinion on a few things.

    I'm essentially looking for a bike that will replace my Yeti SB66c, kind of set on building a bike with a Pinion box, the Ion GPI naturally made the short list.
    Now first question is to do with sizing, I stand 189cm tall, my Yeti is an XL frameset that I fit the lower range of could have gone a Large with a different setup quite comfortably. My cockpit, measured from the tip of saddle to middle of handlebar is about 510mm on all my bikes. I feel like I'd be in between the Longer and Longest (with the -40mm seatpost length on this option), but the reach numbers are really throwing me off with how large the cockpit feels, and your initial post was saying how your weight sits forward a little more because of the cockpit.

    I also usually run Shimano Brakes, and would plan on putting Saint M820's on the build, but concern is on the front brake reach past the gripshifter. Shimano brakes generally have smaller levers. If you've got a photo of how your brake/shifter setup looks, that'd be great to have a look at.

    Sorry if you've answered these questions before in the thread, i'm still working my way through.

  141. #141
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    Hi Zaf,
    Can I as k why set you are set on the pinion? Any info on type of riding/amount of riding.

    On sizing I don't think you should try and compare beyond the basic cockpit measurements but even then I wouldn't compare like for like.
    You have more than 40mm relative adjustment in the saddle so you need to look at the horizontal ETT to middle of handlebar really which then accounts for the stem.
    For me the most important measurement is what we call the range which is middle of BB/crank to tip of handlebar.
    At 189cm that puts you very much in Longest size for me. Which is now made as standard with a 470mm seat tube. Given I can fit a 175mm dropper with my little legs with are 775mm inseam, I would have thought you would not need -40. But of course this is user preference. Dynamically you ride the bike differently to a std bike and so get 'over the back' less and need the saddle less out of the way. Of course it being out of the way as nice just less critical on steep stuff.

    The cockpit pedalling set up is completely different to the dynamic, standing position on this bike. So size it for how you prefer to pedal and dial in with the stem and saddle, because of the head angle the front sits low and you will use steerer tube spacers I'm sure so you can easily use 10mm, 20m, 25mm, 30mm and 35mm stems. I wouldn't go longer than 35mm.

    I'm my opinion the GPI is for certsin kind of customer and the new version of the bike in the picture with 189mm/175mm travel gives a very similar feel in the suspension to the GPI. So I think you need to want the gearbox and belt. I recommend riding one more than once on the kind of riding you will do before committing.

    As for gearshift set up here is the one I use.



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    Last edited by the_pilot; 04-28-2016 at 05:33 AM.
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  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaf View Post
    Hey the_pilot; first thing cheers for the thread, been reading it through trying to get an opinion of the bike. If you have a moment, would be great to get your opinion on a few things.

    I'm essentially looking for a bike that will replace my Yeti SB66c, kind of set on building a bike with a Pinion box, the Ion GPI naturally made the short list.
    Now first question is to do with sizing, I stand 189cm tall, my Yeti is an XL frameset that I fit the lower range of could have gone a Large with a different setup quite comfortably. My cockpit, measured from the tip of saddle to middle of handlebar is about 510mm on all my bikes. I feel like I'd be in between the Longer and Longest (with the -40mm seatpost length on this option), but the reach numbers are really throwing me off with how large the cockpit feels, and your initial post was saying how your weight sits forward a little more because of the cockpit.

    I also usually run Shimano Brakes, and would plan on putting Saint M820's on the build, but concern is on the front brake reach past the gripshifter. Shimano brakes generally have smaller levers. If you've got a photo of how your brake/shifter setup looks, that'd be great to have a look at.

    Sorry if you've answered these questions before in the thread, i'm still working my way through.
    I'll dive in and say at 6ft 2ins you would need a Longest (520 reach). Cockpit feels totally normal with a 30mm stem IMO. I believe the latest versions have a slightly lower seat tube length than before.

  143. #143
    Zaf
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    Cheers for the response guys, really appreciate it.
    Like I was saying, the reach figures aren't as clear a measurement with this geometry and the reviews I've been reading, a lot of smaller riders look to be comfortable on sizing that doesn't immediately look small.

    The Yeti has a massive seatpost, with a 125mm reverb is right down in the tube, 450-470mm is right on the money for a nice seatpost length, that's where I'd like to keep it, didn't realise the newer longest models came with a shorter seat tube.

    I'm sold on the idea of a gearbox, I think it's a better solution to an industry that is forcing shitty standards to overcome a problem the gearbox cleverly solves. So there's an idealism to it, I should support what I agree with so it can better gain traction in the market.

    My quiver is now a 2016 Stumpy FSR, the SB66c and a Kona Honzo. The SB66c, has been made a little bit redundant, so looking for a bigger bike to fit my big mountain quiver. Think the GPI fits that bill nicely, I would be buying it blind though, haven't been able to rest ride anything but a tourer hardtail with a gearbox, which is a very different application from mtb'ing. But every bike has its quirks, is it that radical you think it would completely unsell you on the bike?

    Sent from my Agora 4G Pro

  144. #144
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    Zaf, I'm completely sold on this bike, you can't go wrong with either version. I ride XC and DH with the one bike. Two wheels sets would be a good idea for different types of riding.

  145. #145
    Zaf
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    Likely build would be a CCDB coil with a Fox 36 Float 160mm up front.
    The next thing I wanted to know was wheel builds. I'd be planning on building the rear using a single speed hub to get the flange out and even dishing to maximise on the advantages the gearbox gives, it looks like the belt line sits fairly outboard for a good line anyway.
    Has anyone else build their wheels this way? And if so which hubs were you using?
    All my bikes to date run Hope Hubs, don't see too much of a reason to change at this point, but would be interested if you guys are just spacing out a 142x12 or building the rear up as a single speed.

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  146. #146
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    Just one remark regarding hubs. I've read somewhere in the German forums, that the drivetrain with pinion tends to destroy rear hubs more often due to higher belt/chain tension. On the other hand there are many happy users with their pinion equipped bikes without any issues.

  147. #147
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    Zef, I have no experience of the GPI so Pilot is your man on wheel builds. What I would say is that you should consider using the Fox shock and fork that is recommended for the bike to get the best performance. The linkage is designed for that shock and the fork is set-up for the bike. I would recommend the minimum package of the frame, shock and fork.

  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by loamranger View Post
    Zef, I have no experience of the GPI so Pilot is your man on wheel builds. What I would say is that you should consider using the Fox shock and fork that is recommended for the bike to get the best performance. The linkage is designed for that shock and the fork is set-up for the bike. I would recommend the minimum package of the frame, shock and fork.
    Cheers Loam, I'll keep it in mind.
    I've got a Float X in 216x63 that I can get performance tuned for the frame (keeps costs down also). I've quickly become a big fan of coil shocks since running one on the Yeti, the rear end is so planted with the Vivid R2C, it completely out rides the Pikes up front.

    I could also get a decent deal on a DVO Diamond/Jade setup, which would be the next option for the bike. But I'd much prefer the Float R2C controls and the 20mm axle the 36 offers.

    The bike will fill more of a Gravity/Race rig niche in the quiver as I have the Stumpy for all round trail riding, not saying it'll only come out for those occasions, but the diversity of the current quiver does leave room to give the bike the bias I want.

  149. #149
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    Hi zaf,
    I use a hope single speed hub, advantage is the steel freewheel witch 80 ticks; there are rumors that the axle is not so stable (thinner) as on the normal hope hubs, but I had no problems up to now...
    You could also use the pinion hub which is a labeled acros hub
    Regards,
    Uli

  150. #150
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    Belt tension on the GPI is low, much lower than on a derailleur with a clutch.

    I'd advise against a coil, as Loamranger says, the curve is optimised to work with air, like an x2 or CCDB Air. similarly the fork is optimised to work with an X2 and provide the right balance.

    The Float X is a good shock but it's not an X2..

    I am using a std hub but the belt sits very wide yes and a SS hub would work well. I'd suggest a really fast one if possible to counteract the 3 pawl gearbox engagement. Something Like an Industry 9 would be good in my opinion, failing that a Chris King.
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  151. #151
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    I might have made an error in assumption. I was under the impression that the Ion-GPI was based around a similar progressive leverage ratio to the Mojo Geometron (3.05~2.05), which would suit a coil as the progressiveness has been built into the suspension system.
    What kind of sag and tunes are you running on the Float X2? How often are you bottoming the shock out and under what circumstances?

    Also with regards to the hubs and engagement, other than existence, there'd be no reason not to run a fixed hub on the rear would there?

  152. #152
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    Zaf, of course you could run a coil. But when Chris put the curve together he specifically had an air shock in mind. I'll ask his view on that.
    It may be no concern if the bike is mainly for descending although obviously the weight will increase markedly.
    The curve/shock combination, when tuned, provides support at the sag point due to the air Spring characteristics.
    The GPI does require more damping for pedalling anyway as it has less anti squat than the std bike.


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  153. #153
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    Here is an interesting article on the development of the GeoMetron via a cool website.

    http://radventure.cc/mojo-nicolai-geometron/


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  154. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    Zaf, of course you could run a coil. But when Chris put the curve together he specifically had an air shock in mind. I'll ask his view on that.
    It may be no concern if the bike is mainly for descending although obviously the weight will increase markedly.
    The curve/shock combination, when tuned, provides support at the sag point due to the air Spring characteristics.
    The GPI does require more damping for pedalling anyway as it has less anti squat than the std bike.


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    Is it a similar leverage ratio to the Geometron? I might send Nicolai a few questions as well, see what their take is on it.
    My Yeti has a more linear curve with a slightly progressive/regressive nature and the coil meshes well with that. I'm guessing the GPI is a similar progressive to the Geometron, it would just run a slightly higher spring pressure to achieve sag and then have bottom out protection in the leverage rate.

    But again, my assumption is that the GPI runs a comparable leverage rate to the Geometron, and what you're saying would imply they might vary more than I'm accounting for.

  155. #155
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    It does have the same leverage ratio and curve as the GeoMetron, the anti squat properties are different because of the restriction in sprocket sizes due to belt length.
    My only point is that the curve itself, as opposed to just the overall ratio was optimised for an air shock.
    The coil will work, one of the Mojo staff ran a coil but it wasn't the intended shock for that curve.


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  156. #156
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    Zaf, from the guy that initiated the concept and designed the curve, Mr Porter...

    "There will be more support earlier in the stroke with the air, a flatter mid stroke and more bottom out resistance... Also better(softer)initial touch with FLOAT X2...
    A coil with the correct spring for support (to deliver the intended dynamic ride height) will be firmer/harder in the middle and softer at the end stroke...
    It will not be as nice on the initial touch... And it will be heavier..."
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  157. #157
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    Would they be able to engineer a consistent anti-squat throughout every gear because it no longer has a changing rate that a derailleur setup does?

    Chris Porter's experience is something worth taking note of, the guy knows his stuff and I'd be a fool not to take note of what he has to say. The great article you linked kind of covers how they tailor the suspension to the rider as part of that service (so i'm sure the suspension curve is robust enough to handle variations on it), and a coil damper gives different damping properties which may or may not be desirable for certain riders. My experience so far in going to a coil over air damper has been entirely positive, so I naturally wish to explore that avenue with the next bike.

    The X2 dampers are Fox's take on the Ohlins twin tube system that Cane Creek use in their own right, so it'd be surprising if you couldn't replicate results between the two systems.

    That said, I'll just keep reading up about what has been working for people, what set ups and settings have suited them and what deals can be wrangled. There's no rush to dive into any purchase just yet, although the more I look at the GPI and Geometron the more I fall in love with them.

  158. #158
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    Zaf,

    The anti squat is consistent on the GPI yes and at a lower level than the derailleur bike. It is possible to make it really nice with only minor damping tweaks to LSC and LSR, certainly on the Float X2. The rear suspension is lovely on the GPI. There are lots of things to love about the GPI.

    The consistent anti squat is both an advantage and a disadvantage in my view but that's a whole different discussion!

    I think Pinion do need to address the GripShift with an electronic trigger shift this year to make it a more all round bike.

    I think I'd also take the 9spd version over the 12spd and save the extra weight.
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  159. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    Zaf, of course you could run a coil. But when Chris put the curve together he specifically had an air shock in mind. I'll ask his view on that.
    It may be no concern if the bike is mainly for descending although obviously the weight will increase markedly.
    The curve/shock combination, when tuned, provides support at the sag point due to the air Spring characteristics.
    The GPI does require more damping for pedalling anyway as it has less anti squat than the std bike.


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    Looks like it's a pretty progressive design, 20% more than Ion 16, not sure that's a good idea for an air shock, in fact, optimal would be something somewhat reverse of an air-shocks basic profile, which is progressive to flat to progressive through it's stroke. Usually it takes more linkage magic to come up with something like that and it usually makes it much less optimal for a coil shock, but this doesn't seem to be that.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  160. #160
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    Jayem,

    Ignoring any interpretation of the analysis, and speaking as someone who has spent a lot of time on the bike(s), I can say that Chris (Who I think we could probably agree is a suspension expert) took a hybrid of the curves of his preferred linkages and matched that, with Marcel tweaking the linkage/design, to the characteristics of the Float x2 to give as close to an optimal curve as possible with the design for the desired ride. Taking account of the amount of anti squat he wanted, using between a 30 and 34t sprocket and where he wanted the support to be within the stroke and the end stroke characteristics.

    It is, and feels, significantly different to the Ion16 to ride, particularly in the pedalling and how 'tight' it feels at the rear. The other odd thing is I get far less pedal kickback with this system yet in theory it is more, but I think this could be due to how little I have to use the rear brake into corners due to the level of traction to be had from the front.

    It is very lively at the rear, pedals without the need for any additional damping, is super supple in the stroke and in small bump but gives up its travel when needed, except for the last few mm where it does resist bottom out heavily, slightly less so on my 175mm version.

    The DH bike, which I don't know if you have seen, has the same linkage and again optimisation for the air shock although it does allow for a longer stroke shock still to max out at 200mm, Jack is often running at 180mm however.

    There are some other tweaks on the DH bike
    Jack Reading's Nicolai GeoMetron DH - Lourdes DH World Cup 2016 - Pinkbike

    All in all I can say its a great curve for an air shock, at least the Float X/X2 and their design.

    Of course the proof of the pudding is in the riding :-)
    Last edited by the_pilot; 04-30-2016 at 02:14 PM.
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  161. #161
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    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-20160430_170819044_ios.jpg

  162. #162
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    I have been doing some testing recently with different angles and fork offsets with this new bike (Longest size, I am 178cm tall) I'll also be doing some testing of the impact of stem length (10mm/20mm/25mm/30mm/35mm) too at a later date.

    I put this together to give a basis of reference so that I could try to analyse ride thoughts and feedback, from me, other riders and Chris, and relate them to figures rather than just feelings.

    Points to note are;
    Tyre sizes on my bike are different not equal. The angles are calculated from a std setup with 715mm diameter front and rear.

    Our bikes have a smaller rear tyre and 715mm front (Magic Mary F / Minion/Minion SS/Rock Razor/Aggressor rear.
    This gives HA's approximately 0.3deg - 0.5deg slacker than in the table when measured with a digital angle finder on a level surface.

    The wheelbases are with the longer swingarm I have fitted.

    CSu is crown steerer unit (I have both 26" and 27.5" CSU's, usually I use 26" with 30mm stem and 27.5" with 35mm stem but have been just using 30mm stem with both recently.

    AS I use works components headsets the ETT/reach is also reduced by 5mm due to the offset top cup however the range remains as I want by adjusting bar roll and spacers so the effective reach (or range) is the same on each set up.

    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-screen-shot-2016-04-30-22.23.20.jpg

    One thing we have noticed is the bike is super adapatable, I think for the same reasons that I can be very dynamic 'within' the bike to enhance grip/balance without being close to disaster.



    The GPI I use currently has a -1 headset but of course the std swingarm.
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  163. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post

    It is very lively at the rear, pedals without the need for any additional damping, is super supple in the stroke and in small bump but gives up its travel when needed, except for the last few mm where it does resist bottom out heavily, slightly less so on my 175mm version.

    How often, and under what circumstances are you bottoming out the bike harshly? And what settings are you using on your Float X2? HSC, LSC, HSR, LSR, sag and bottom out tokens?

  164. #164
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    Zaf, I've never bottomed it out harshly, I suspect due to it being super progressive at end stroke, something Chris was keen to achieve but perhaps also because I don't tend to do huge jumps.
    My rear shock settings are currently
    Shock 6 volume spacers 177psi 20% sag
    Clicks from closed
    HSC22 LSC22 ( both fully open)
    HSR17 LSR 4

    This is with the 222x70 shock at 175mm travel. Not something you can do on the GPI

    On the GPI I have
    Shock 4 volume spacers 160psi 25% sag (216x63) 155mm travel
    HSC22 LSC20
    HSR16 LSR 3



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  165. #165
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    How much stroke is being used when you bottom out?
    Have you ever tried a coil on the system yourself?

    Sent from my Agora 4G Pro

  166. #166
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    within 2mm of the end Zaf on both bikes, GPI 216x63 and the 222x70 on my std bike.
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  167. #167
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    on a typical trail ride I'll get within 10mm-15mm of the end of stroke, but more when I throw jumps in and more square edged hits at high speed.
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  168. #168
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    Cheers for the info. I'm waiting for a quote back from Nicolai before proceeding, but think I've got a fair idea of how I want to proceed with the bike.

    Really appreciate your feedback, I'll update this thread once things have proceeded. Last information was that the frame would be available mid year, plenty of time to think it over in the mean time.

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  169. #169
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    My frame arrived yesterday, very happy how it turned out. I decided to abandon my other topic, instead post it here, will post again once it's build up. (Within 2 weeks I hope.)




  170. #170
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    Hi Neohammer, your frame looks awesome. I wish you many happy kilometers.

  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by slavdo View Post
    Hi Neohammer, your frame looks awesome. I wish you many happy kilometers.
    Thank you, thank you!

  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neohammer View Post
    Thank you, thank you!
    What build kit do you plan to run on it?

  173. #173
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    Nice


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  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaf View Post
    What build kit do you plan to run on it?
    I hope this works, Dropbox link to the partlist: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fjeaeu630x...tlist.jpg?dl=0

    I think I'm over-detailing my planning for a new bike, but I kind of like that part of it all too.

  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neohammer View Post
    I hope this works, Dropbox link to the partlist: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fjeaeu630x...tlist.jpg?dl=0

    I think I'm over-detailing my planning for a new bike, but I kind of like that part of it all too.
    Link works a treat, glad to know there are others like me. I do spreadsheets with multiple options on the build kit (and frames) that make the short list and then I can mix and match parts as I go to get a cost benefit from it.

    She's a nicely spec'ed machine! Let me know how you get on with the Cleg's and those Onyx hubs.

  176. #176
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    Neo, which frame is that?

  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUNKY View Post
    Neo, which frame is that?
    It's a standard ION GPI in "longer" The color is Atomic Yellow. (RAL 1026)

  178. #178
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    Good review.
    http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/ca...ometron-50373/


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  179. #179
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    Does anyone know what is the best source the UK for gates belts for ION GPI? I do not how but I snapped one on my bike.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-wp_20160527_15_20_31_pro.jpg  

    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-wp_20160527_15_20_42_pro.jpg  

    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-wp_20160527_15_21_10_pro.jpg  


  180. #180
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    WOW! Check alignment. But apart from that PM me your address and I'll send you one.


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  181. #181
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    This is how it sits in relation to the snubber (that little device to keep the belt on). Thoughts?


    I will email you my address. Many thanks for your help.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-wp_20160527_16_16_51_pro.jpg  


  182. #182
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    I think your rear sprocket is facing the wrong way, the text should be inwards. (I saw another picture of your excellent looking bike from Chris, and I kind of noticed it.) Did you get the hub spacer with the frame?

  183. #183
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    I do not think the sprocket is directional, i.e. that it has to rotate in one specific direction. The belt does not appear to be directional either, i.e. it could be run in either direction. The key here is to establish the chainline, as per my last picture. This is what i am concentrating my mind on.

  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by tatankainlondon View Post
    I do not think the sprocket is directional, i.e. that it has to rotate in one specific direction. The belt does not appear to be directional either, i.e. it could be run in either direction. The key here is to establish the chainline, as per my last picture. This is what i am concentrating my mind on.
    It is unidirectional indeed, but what I mean is that if you flip the sprocket, so that the text on the sprocket is facing towards the bike, the offset might be different. Below are 2 examples of Nicolai's or Mojo factory build ups.

    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-flipped.jpg

    Nicolai GPI/Geometron Ride/Info/Pics-flipped2.jpg

  185. #185
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    Hi, I've been reading this thread with interest, owning an Ion16 already the Geomotron looks like a good natural progression. I also absolutely love the idea of the gearbox and I've been looking at the pinion for a couple of years now, my only concerns have been weight and gripshift (same as everyone I suppose).

    I came across this video today of the Zerode G1 using a gearbox and trigger shifter?? Am I missing something or could this not be used with the pinion on a Nic?
    http://youtu.be/e2KRlsBwa9Q

  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by ButchSchlong View Post
    Hi, I've been reading this thread with interest, owning an Ion16 already the Geomotron looks like a good natural progression. I also absolutely love the idea of the gearbox and I've been looking at the pinion for a couple of years now, my only concerns have been weight and gripshift (same as everyone I suppose).

    I came across this video today of the Zerode G1 using a gearbox and trigger shifter?? Am I missing something or could this not be used with the pinion on a Nic?
    http://youtu.be/e2KRlsBwa9Q
    The Effigear gearbox has a trigger, it has a different kind of actuation. The Pinion may get a trigger in the next year, but that has been promised for several years, although there seems to be more momentum right now.
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  187. #187
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    Just woke up to this on my newsfeed, Singletrack Magazine | push'R for Rohloff: Trigger for Twister and Fluid for Wires
    Could this work on the pinion??

  188. #188
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    That kind of system but not that specific one no.



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  189. #189
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    Butch, the Zerode G1/G2 uses a Shimano Alfine geared hub and trigger shifter

  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    The 29er GeoMetron uses an identical head angle and bottom bracket height (Although the BB drop is larger due to the 29er wheels, while the chainstay is just 5mm longer than std at 450mm and the reach of a longer is just 7mm shorter.
    The chainstay is the same as my current modified (But available to order) bike shown below.

    The 29er uses a standard 29er 51mm offset fork, this compensates for the higher front axle, resulting in a trail figure that's almost identical.
    Came across with researching the effects of offset on trail. I went from a 42mm offset fork for 650b to 51mm on the same bike, and the change has been dramatic, and maybe not in the best way. I've been trying to figure out how I can keep this 51mm offset fork, slow down the steering a bit, but not go any longer on stem. Seems like the easiest way would be to add a 29er front wheel and offset shock bushing. Lower and slacker with slower steering front wheel.
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  191. #191
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    There is an ex demo Long size Ti anodised GeoMetron frame and shock available at Mojo if anyone is thinking of one. Message me for more details.


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  192. #192
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    Hi
    I have a bit of play at the cranks of my Pinion p1.2 If it was a normal bottom bracket you would say it is on the way out. Anyone else get that?

  193. #193
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    Front end of Geometron harsh

    Anyone else find the front end of the Geometron too harsh? I have the mojo tuned 36 180s with correct sag and zero compression yet I have never been able to get them to stop feeling too harsh on the rough descents here in the Lake District.

    I know the Geometron is very stiff as are the 36's and the carbon bars but the rear end X2 feels fantastic so I need to sort the front out too!

  194. #194
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    Quite the opposite Scarlet. Recently serviced? They do 'go off' and the feeling is more harsh. First I would take them apart and check the travel and neg chamber mod just in case, they occassionally slip through the net.
    Then perhaps instigate the 'supple' modes if you haven't already, low friction seals, slick 50 in place of foam rings, float fluid between bushes, make sure the additional oil levels are in there.
    Lastly check for stiction in the bushes, resistance when pushing vertically down on the bar, not in the plane of travel. they have been known to go, Chris has sorted ones that have for owners i.e. change the bushes.
    Double check compression and rebound settings, too much rebound can have the same feeling if it packs or is too slow so you could try backing off that a little too.
    If they still feel harsh, I would speak to Chris and get the damping checked and/or modded to be lighter for you. As you mention all compression off here.

    Definitely should not feel harsh even over roughest of ground.

    The caveat is the carbon bar makes a big difference in terms of vibration but it depends which one and if the owner is sensitive to it, its very personal.
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  195. #195
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    Cheers the_pilot great advice as usual. I run zero compression and fast rebound (6 from full open). I have been noticing it most on wide open high speed descents that are very rough with loads of loose boulders and rocks. The harshness has translated into a lack of front end grip which has caused some unhappy memories!

    They are due their first annual service but have felt harsh all year. New low friction seals and strip has not made a difference. I would expect them to be buttery smooth just like the X2, that said since my X2 air can was replaced and serviced it feels better than before.

    My bars are Renthal carbon 780s but I also have those on my hardtail and don't feel too harsh so probably not them. I have lost a chunk of weight in the last 18 months due to illness so that may be a factor but less air pressure should fix that. The bars are 30mm rise and I have 20mm of spacers under the stem so lowering the bars could be a fix for lack of front end grip.

    Time to call up Mojo and send them in for a service and tune up I think!

  196. #196
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    How many spacers and what colour are people using in their 36's?

  197. #197
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    One blue, 2 blue was too progressive, one blue one orange was alright but I found more air pressure rather than reduced chamber volume suited the set up for me, others too have backed off on volume spacers. I cant believe I forgot to ask you about that!

    I had to do a lot with my 40 in Spain as my UK setup was very problematic, basically much too progressive, I went from 3 orange to one and it was a transformation. However your normal terrain sounds more like the Spanish stuff.

    What are you running and how heavy are you if that isn't too personal!
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  198. #198
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    I think I am about 95kg in riding gear and I run 1 blue spacer.

    A lot of the riding here tends to be big days out and several thousand feet of rough technical descent is normal.

  199. #199
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    With one blue spacer at 95kg thats not the reason for any harshness.
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