Helius FR comparisons with other frames?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Helius FR comparisons with other frames?

    Can anyone with experience on a FR offer comparisons with other frames in the 6"+ travel class (RFX, El Guapo, Nomad, etc.)? I'm interested in hearing what you may or may not have liked about different frames in comparison with the FR, but I'm not interested in starting a flame war (seriously), so don't bother responding if you're gonna do brand bashing. If you can offer any perspective, I'm particularly interested in "quality" of suspension (how does it pedal/climb and descend), frame stiffness, how well geometry is suited to intended use, value (price vs. peformance), etc.

    I have perused a bunch of FR threads but was interested in hearing some specific comparisons if anyone cared to offer them. TIA.

  2. #2

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    Should you be interested, I could also post on your behalf in German on the mtb-news.de site. There are several there that have had RFX's and it's likely they could have had a Helius around. I'll have to translate the answer, but there's a viable option for you, should you be interested.

  3. #3
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    PCinSC, I think JC's option is a great one, there will be more peeps in Germany with real time on the Helius FR's up against others....

    Will be hard to get feedback though on the 08 model FR, which is a different beast all over.

    I got an El Gaupo as a demo for a weekends riding, of which I put in around 9 hours riding. The bike went great, pedaled and climbed great, felt good in the air, cockpit was tight, not cramped at all, but not open if that makes sense... I really enjoyed riding it. Was going to pull the trigger too.... But I felt in the longrun, I would out grow the bike, again if that makes sense... I think a really experienced rider would not benefit and move there overall riding ahead... Please peeps, dont want a flame war on my thoughts, its a great bike, but not right for me...

    I also had the chance to ride for the day a 07 Helius FR. I really enjoyed this bike, I got on it and just went, felt like I had been on it for many moons. It climbed great, railed the corners great, was really stiff, totally enjoyed it....

    I also rode for the day a Turner 5 Pack, this was a great bike, seriously was. Myself though I liked the FR better. Many will say am just saying that and stirring, I am not, I really enjoyed the bike.

    At the Nicolai factory this week when I made a visit, I only got to sit on a 08 Helius FR, was a medium, so not my size. But I could notice that it was stiffer in the rear than the 07 I rode 2 weeks previously..... I really dont think we have thought in depth just how different a bike the 08 FR is to the 07, totally different bikes.

    See here the 07 and the 08, 08 on the bottom....See the shortened stays, the pivot location change, subtle but very much changing the stiffness etc

    Hope that was of some help, and I am not jsut being biased, please know that...
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  4. #4
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    nice.. I would like to know some more too (subscribing )

    BTW..the bike we tried during the visit seem to be perfect for me but I doubt it was an M...probably an L... it was long...

  5. #5
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    How can you tell a bike is "stiffer in the rear" by just sitting on it?

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    Have all three

    Lets start with the Turner
    1 Very stable bike climbs well and handles very well great company
    2 Has a higher leverage ratio then other bikes that makes the rear shock work a little harder.
    Next the vpp bike is probally on of the best pedaling bikes but always has issues with pivot and has pedal feedback which is a pain in the neck.
    The FR is a four bar linkage the stiffest of all bikes very responsive climbs well tracks well and has adjustability which is always nice. I think one of the best thing is the 5year warranty that is transferable. There is one other bike you should consider and that is the Knolly it is as stiff as the FR my opion but i think it pedals the best out of all the other bikes have not rode the 08 fr so can,t comment on that one but think it will pedal better then the 07. All the bikes are great and you can,t go wrong . good luck.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan
    How can you tell a bike is "stiffer in the rear" by just sitting on it?
    Was waiting for this one.......

    As I said, I only got to sit on it and feel if there was any play, and there was nada at all. I myself could feel the difference..........But once again, this comment was made, of which I qualified it by saying was only carpark sitting on it.... And I am also taking into account the pivot, rocker change of position, which has shortened the stays. Also by talkign with Kalle Nicolai & Falco, as to why the big change for 08 for the FR. Extra stiffness was one point they wanted to increase....

    Hope that qualifies my comment, it was not made on a whim or for the sake of it....

    All good..........
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    which Knolly?
    breezy shade

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Should you be interested, I could also post on your behalf in German on the mtb-news.de site. There are several there that have had RFX's and it's likely they could have had a Helius around. I'll have to translate the answer, but there's a viable option for you, should you be interested.
    That would be great, if you have the time. I must say I'm particularly interested in the 2007/08 RFX models, if there's anyone that have ridden both a comparison would be great.

    Why, you ask? Couple of reasons. I bought my RFX as a compromise to be used for trail riding and DHing. And it can do both, obviously. But it is a tad small for me for trail riding. And it doesn't enough travel for "real" DHing. Plus, with the high leverage ratio I'm forced to run it in 5" travel mode, which means the geometry is kind of whacked out if I run my Zoke 66 with anything more 150mm of travel.

    Actually 145mm travel feels pretty good for trail riding, but the fork's performance goes down when it is run at anything other than full (170mm) travel. But even at 145mm travel the whole bike gets a bit slacked out because in 5" mode that frame is intended to be used with a 5" travel fork (of 2002 vintage, no less). Combine that with the fact that my saddle is already pushed back on the rails to create a bigger cockpit (I also run a 90mm stem) the bike is too small, with a too-rearward weight bias, with too much stem...all at the same time.

    Add to that the fact that the bike weighs 40lbs, and you can see why I'm looking for something more "trail appropriate". Especially since I'm looking to add a dedicated DH bike to the stable. I still want to use my 66 as my trail fork because I like the stiffness and performance at full travel. But I have to find a frame that can handle a 170mm fork. Hence my interest in a new(er) RFX, the Helius FR, Nomad, etc. I'd hang some new, lighter weight trail parts on it and use it as my ~35lb everyday bike.
    Last edited by PCinSC; 11-04-2007 at 05:04 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    Hope that was of some help, and I am not jsut being biased, please know that...
    Yeah, good info there. And don't apologize for being biased, we all are to some degree, otherwise we would never be able to pick out a brand/model of bike to ride. What's important to those trying to get info is to find out specifically what someone may like about one brand's frame over another so that we can be somewhat objective when considering that information.

    Sure does seem they changed that frame a bit for the '08 model year. When ride reports come in I'll be looking for them.

  11. #11
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    Thanks for the feedback. The 2007 and 2008 RFXs have a bit lower leverage ratio, which is one of the reasons I'm looking at them. For reference, I'm riding a '02 5" travel RFX. The Nomad has gotten praises from some clydesdales, but after riding a Horst link equipped bike I'll admit that the pedal feedback issue is a turn-off. I would like to ride one to see how big of a problem it is.

    I am curious about the FR and it's leverage ratio, I was under the impression that it's fairly high as well. Don't know if it's gonna be different on the new model. I didn't see anything specific about that in this forum.

    The Knolly's are certainly sweet and would fit the bill in terms of strength and stiffness. I'm looking hard at a V-tach for DH duties. But for what I'm gonna be using this bike for, I don't need the heft of a Delirium T. And I've got too much fork for the Endorphin. The future long-travel Endorphin make work well, but that's not gonna out be anytime soon. I'm hoping to make a move this coming season.

    Quote Originally Posted by ncig
    Lets start with the Turner
    1 Very stable bike climbs well and handles very well great company
    2 Has a higher leverage ratio then other bikes that makes the rear shock work a little harder.
    Next the vpp bike is probally on of the best pedaling bikes but always has issues with pivot and has pedal feedback which is a pain in the neck.
    The FR is a four bar linkage the stiffest of all bikes very responsive climbs well tracks well and has adjustability which is always nice. I think one of the best thing is the 5year warranty that is transferable. There is one other bike you should consider and that is the Knolly it is as stiff as the FR my opion but i think it pedals the best out of all the other bikes have not rode the 08 fr so can,t comment on that one but think it will pedal better then the 07. All the bikes are great and you can,t go wrong . good luck.

  12. #12
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    if your looking for a cheap frame to use the 170mm 66 on and can give up a little travel a preston might work well for both heavy trail riding and also for not so much DH bike freeriding, but a knolly or nicolai would prolly work better, but there is a price to pay for that upgrade

  13. #13
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    PC, I wrote up a big thing about the diff between the 05 Helius FR and the 06 rfx.
    Dat about all I can contribute
    It is in the thread, RFX vs Helius FR.

  14. #14
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    I Have experiance with 2 of the bikes you had mentioned
    My brother just got the 08 RFX and I have a 07 Nomad here at my house

    .....The rfx in the past 2 weeks we put it Through some nice tough trails but no real Downhill runs .. It pedals very nice the bike is responsive does not squirm on drops Jumps very balanced .. The bike is very stable in shore style stunts, skinies are a breese Overall exelent bike climbs like a goat , But unlike his 05 spot with H L it does need the pedal platform
    The Nomad we have had around for a while it is preety much same built as RFX this bike is a little less lively then the RFX.... But the rear end is butter smooth we have taken this bike to full on downhill runs and it kept up to my 303 on some very techy Runs Not as fast but very respectable
    On rough trails the Nomad was very capable jumps very nutral Over all again very nice bike ....... But the RFX is defenaitly a a quicker handeling and livelier of the 2 bikes
    I will have a Foes FXR to test in a few weeks I think this bike will also b a very intersting Option at the 6 inch trail bikes

    Unfortunatly No one here in the TO area has a Helious FR I would love to throw a leg over one and try it out ....I think the only way to see one of those up here is for me to pull the triger and buy one

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    Thanks for the feedback. The 2007 and 2008 RFXs have a bit lower leverage ratio, which is one of the reasons I'm looking at them. For reference, I'm riding a '02 5" travel RFX. The Nomad has gotten praises from some clydesdales, but after riding a Horst link equipped bike I'll admit that the pedal feedback issue is a turn-off. I would like to ride one to see how big of a problem it is.

    I am curious about the FR and it's leverage ratio, I was under the impression that it's fairly high as well. Don't know if it's gonna be different on the new model. I didn't see anything specific about that in this forum.

    The Knolly's are certainly sweet and would fit the bill in terms of strength and stiffness. I'm looking hard at a V-tach for DH duties. But for what I'm gonna be using this bike for, I don't need the heft of a Delirium T. And I've got too much fork for the Endorphin. The future long-travel Endorphin make work well, but that's not gonna out be anytime soon. I'm hoping to make a move this coming season.

    long...travel...endorphin...?
    ride fast...take chances...

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    I am curious about the FR and it's leverage ratio, I was under the impression that it's fairly high as well. Don't know if it's gonna be different on the new model. I didn't see anything specific about that in this forum.
    The 08 Helius FR uses the same size shock as the 07's, which is a 7.875 x 2.25. I was really hoping that they would use a bigger shock to bring the ratio down but this would also force them to use a longer chain stay or modified seat tube (ala Helius ST) to prevent tire contact with the seat tube. The good news is the horst link suspension of the Helius does not need much platform or compression damping so it is not overly taxing on the shock. But I'm getting older and heavier and 3:1 ratios make me pause and think there could be better performance out there.

    Sorry no comments on a comparison for you. I couldn't be happier with the UFO-DS but there is nothing there to compare with a 6" trail/fr frame.
    Enjoy the search.

  17. #17
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    Thanks for the heads up. A 3:1 leverage ratio is gonna be too high for me. If I were closer to 200lbs it'd be less of an issue. Of course, then I could just run the 6" rockers on my current RFX. I think a frame that has a slightly lower ratio (combine with me shedding a few pounds) will work out the best in terms of suspension performance. Thanks again.
    Quote Originally Posted by CAO
    The 08 Helius FR uses the same size shock as the 07's, which is a 7.875 x 2.25. I was really hoping that they would use a bigger shock to bring the ratio down but this would also force them to use a longer chain stay or modified seat tube (ala Helius ST) to prevent tire contact with the seat tube. The good news is the horst link suspension of the Helius does not need much platform or compression damping so it is not overly taxing on the shock. But I'm getting older and heavier and 3:1 ratios make me pause and think there could be better performance out there.

    Sorry no comments on a comparison for you. I couldn't be happier with the UFO-DS but there is nothing there to compare with a 6" trail/fr frame.
    Enjoy the search.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by boone
    PC, I wrote up a big thing about the diff between the 05 Helius FR and the 06 rfx.
    Dat about all I can contribute
    It is in the thread, RFX vs Helius FR.
    Yeah, I saw that. I'm was looking to get comparisons to the '07 RFX (which I wasn't really explicit about in my OP) and comparisons with other frames in this travel class, particularly those with moderate leverage ratios. I didn't realize that the leverage ratio was high on the FR, so it looks like it's a moot point anyway. I should've guessed that from the comments of several owners that they like the way it rides in 5" travel mode. Thanks for the reply.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    Thanks for the heads up. A 3:1 leverage ratio is gonna be too high for me. If I were closer to 200lbs it'd be less of an issue. Of course, then I could just run the 6" rockers on my current RFX. I think a frame that has a slightly lower ratio (combine with me shedding a few pounds) will work out the best in terms of suspension performance. Thanks again.
    Yep us big American's need lower ratio's to get better performance. You may want to check out the Titus Supermoto & ElGuapo or the Ventana El Terremoto they both use larger shocks on their 6-7" frames

    I rode a bodies Foes FXR about two months ago and the crunnut shock still clunked on every cycle just like the old ones. He was ok with it but it bugged me so much I had to hand it back.

  20. #20
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    Hey guys, don't forget there's an adjustable front shock mount on the Helius which - in theory - will allow you to put a longer shock with longer stroke thus lowering the leverage ratio.

    I'm not too familiar with the '08 model - I own an '07 - but I'm going to put a 222 x 70 shock instead of the stock 200 x 57. This way I will turn my bike from 115-163 mm travel (2:1 - 2.86:1 leverage ratios) to 140 - 160 mm travel with 2:1 and 2.28:1 leverage ratios. I guess it's pretty low, and I will still have two viable travel options.

    I guess if you put a longer shock on the '08 model you will be stuck with only one usable travel mode (using the lesser travel hole), but it's still possible. Your resulting travel will be approximately equal to [lesser travel with stock shock] DIVIDED BY [stroke of the stock shock] MULTIPLIED BY [stroke of the new shock]
    If the lesser travel mode on the '08 Helius FR is 4.5 in / 115 mm like I've read somewhere, and the stock shock has 57 mm stroke, by putting a 222 x 70 shock you will get
    115 / 57 * 70 = 140-something mm of travel,
    By putting a 240x76 you're getting
    115 / 57 * 76 = 150-something mm of travel,
    Both with 2:1 leverage ratio.

    I hope I'm not mistaken with my calculations.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artin Aga
    I Have experiance with 2 of the bikes you had mentioned
    My brother just got the 08 RFX and I have a 07 Nomad here at my house
    Thanks for the comparison.
    Unfortunatly No one here in the TO area has a Helious FR I would love to throw a leg over one and try it out ....I think the only way to see one of those up here is for me to pull the triger and buy one.
    That seems to an issue for a lot of these high end frames, unless you'd get a buddy who rides one it's tough to demo one before purchasing.

  22. #22
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    My 08 FR is on it's way. Give me a couple of weeks and I'll give you my opinions of it compared to a Turner 6-Pack and 5-Pack. can't wait!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smith
    Hey guys, don't forget there's an adjustable front shock mount on the Helius which - in theory - will allow you to put a longer shock with longer stroke thus lowering the leverage ratio.
    Correct, but with a longer stroke shock you increase the wheel path where at bottom out you would be rubbing or bending the seattube. Who know about the 08 model but I would test fit it before riding and make sure you can return the shock if/when it doesn't fit.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipper
    My 08 FR is on it's way. Give me a couple of weeks and I'll give you my opinions of it compared to a Turner 6-Pack and 5-Pack. can't wait!
    Can't wait for a review. Congrat's on you new frame.

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    oh...and i'm over 200lb as well. No idea what all the fuss is around the 3-1 ratio bikes. I know i struggled using some air shocks and the standard DHX-C, but set up well with a suitable shock and it should be fine. Roco TST or CCDB are my current favourites. I suspect the CCDB will be better but I've not put enough miles in yet to say for sure.

    Helious FR will be run with a Roco TST as well. And an 08 36 Van up front

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAO
    Correct, but with a longer stroke shock you increase the wheel path where at bottom out you would be rubbing or bending the seattube.
    Not necessarily if you use lesser travel hole on the swing-link.

    Quote Originally Posted by CAO
    Who know about the 08 model but I would test fit it before riding and make sure you can return the shock if/when it doesn't fit.
    Of course testing it before actually riding is a good thing to do.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipper
    oh...and i'm over 200lb as well. No idea what all the fuss is around the 3-1 ratio bikes. I know i struggled using some air shocks and the standard DHX-C, but set up well with a suitable shock and it should be fine. Roco TST or CCDB are my current favourites. I suspect the CCDB will be better but I've not put enough miles in yet to say for sure.

    Helious FR will be run with a Roco TST as well. And an 08 36 Van up front

    Nice can't wait to hear all about it

  28. #28
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    PC... It seems like the Delirium T could handle both trail, and DH for anyone outside BC ,even at your weight? Esp if it pedals as good as they say. But I know that you've looked into this bike extensively, and apparently see something that leads you to believe other wise?

    Also, as much as those who've ridden it say that the wieght is a non issue, it seems it would be even less of an issue considering the bike your coming off, and your weight?

    I guess your looking for little/no compramise since your looking for two bikes really, but damn that DT is heavy for AM, and yet they call it AM. It just seems that it would be a good bike for you since people in BC are pulling 20' gaps, AND pedaling it through ST, and climbs.

  29. #29
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    Sweet to hear dipper. Mine is a few weeks away too, I am puttign a CCDB on mine, I too am not concerned on the ratio......

    I have sent an email to Nicolai re what ratio shocks they have tried etc, will post back when I hear

    Cant wait to see your build and bike Dipper, please complete the build database, even now so we can drewl.....LOL
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  30. #30
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    Mine too is confirmed for the third week in November build. I should take delivery in early December. Like Whafe, I have mine ordered with a CCDB and I weigh 230lb. Bring it on!

  31. #31
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    be interesting to know what Nicolai say about shocks.

    I'll knock together a spec. I'll probably transfer most of the Turner build. It all worked well and should give a good comparison

  32. #32
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    I can't comment too much on the Nicolai bikes. I did put a leg over Crazy Fred's bike but his suspension was too stiff for me to get a good feel for it. They look like sick bikes and I'm sure I'd love owning one. My only hesitation would be the cost and the waiting time. I'm not very patient at all.

    I'm on the El Guapo now and I love it. I'm not sure what Whafe means when he says it won't help a rider move their riding ahead, but hey that's his opinion. Personally, it has advanced my riding a ton. I'm hitting bigger and bigger stuff with a lot more confidence than I've ever had. My riding buddies have even asked me how I've been able to improve my riding so much this year. My answer is that the EG is very confidence inspiring and just an overall blast to ride. The only downside to the EG right now is I'm not liking the DHX Air. I'm replacing it with a CCDB which should make this bike really shine.

    I also spent a good bit of time on 6.6. That bike was a blast to ride but the high BB and the flexy rear made me want to sell it. I'm real interested to hear some real world reports of the SS. That frame is supposed to fix all those issues that the 6.6 had. That bike looks like a fun ride. I've bounced around on my buddy's 5 spot. It felt pretty good but it didn't thrill me. I'd have to set it up for me to give a good report.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by lornibear
    Mine too is confirmed for the third week in November build. I should take delivery in early December. Like Whafe, I have mine ordered with a CCDB and I weigh 230lb. Bring it on!

    yeah ha, they will be made the same week..................
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  34. #34
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    As I said, I passed on the question to Nicolai re the shock ratio's etc, along with the question re running a longer shock etc

    The reply from Nicolai was tha tthe ratio on the 2008 Helius FR is 1:2.9 at 57 mm stroke.

    I am also at a loss re the issue with the perception that this is a huge ratio, I knwo that some heavier dudes may need a strong spring rate etc. But what shocks out there have focked out because of the ratio

    Nicolai stated they dont know of any shocks focking up becuase of the ratio of there frames

    Also they advised about the longer stroke shock, because of the reasons that were mentioned...

    Woody, I was not meanign my comment as a critical view of the El G. I was very near pulling the trigger on one. Just researched more and decided against it, still a great bike
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    Woody, I was not meaning my comment as a critical view of the El G. I was very near pulling the trigger on one. Just researched more and decided against it, still a great bike
    No worries! After seeing your pics of their factory it had me hunkering for a Nicolai myself. I also had a strange yearning for Sauerbraten and Becks Dark.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak
    No worries! After seeing your pics of their factory it had me hunkering for a Nicolai myself. I also had a strange yearning for Sauerbraten and Becks Dark.

    umm..Sauerbraten with a Hefeweizen for me

  37. #37
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    PSinSC will come around and realise that his soul is yearning to ride a Nicolai..............
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    Ratios...

    Dave Turner had some discussion regarding ratios when I queried him. I wanted a 2.5" stroke shock on the RFX, but he advised me why they are sticking with 2.25" stroke on the RFX. This is his post and was in reference to the RFX and Turner bikes so nobody get their knickers in a knot :

    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    I like to keep the total ratio to around 2.75:1 any less than that and I feel stock shocks are out of their clicker range for anyone less than 170 lbs, as much as I like riding PUSH shocks and we are offering Cane Creek as an option, I want to put out a frame that rides as well as it can with a production Fox shock, and yes we already spec the lightest rebound on most even with ratios in the two and three quarter to one range. Going to a longer shock on the current RFX would just make the rear suspension over damped.

    I'm 220 pounds so I prefer 2.5 to 1 for an air shock bike. But at the end of the day it's all about the ride and not the ratio.


    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    As I said, I passed on the question to Nicolai re the shock ratio's etc, along with the question re running a longer shock etc
    ....
    The reply from Nicolai was tha tthe ratio on the 2008 Helius FR is 1:2.9 at 57 mm stroke.
    pulling the trigger on one. Just researched more and decided against it, still a great bike

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Mountain
    I'm 220 pounds so I prefer 2.5 to 1 for an air shock bike. But at the end of the day it's all about the ride and not the ratio.
    Agreed but it is the numbers and the ride that makes each of these frames different. It has been my experience that given the same rear suspension I prefer a low 2 : 1 - 2.5 : 1 for xc riding and racing and 2.5 : 1 - 2.75 : 1 for faster or more aggressive riding. The ratio is a good indication of how the suspension will perform with available shocks.

    A 200 x 57 shock on a 170mm suspension frame yields a 2.982 : 1 ratio
    A 215 x 63.5 shock on a 170mm suspension frame yields a 2.677 : 1 ratio
    A 222 x 70 shock on a 170mm suspension frame yields a 2.428 : 1 ratio

    I am looking forward to the upcoming reviews of a fantastic frame and hopefully I can talk the good folks at BlackSheep into a parking lot test when they get some in. I've had too many frames to start compromising now. Nicolai has the ability to modify a frame to accept a larger shock, its only money and more time.

  40. #40
    thats right living legend
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak
    No worries! After seeing your pics of their factory it had me hunkering for a Nicolai myself. I also had a strange yearning for Sauerbraten and Becks Dark.

    Yeah the EG is very limiting. I mean it's a very exclusive "high end" bike that retails for nearly 2000$ frame only, but every body knows you' would have to have an even "more exclusive" 2600$ frame (or whatever) that you had to wait half a yr for, to really have ANY HOPE what so ever, to progress as an avanced rider.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    Yeah the EG is very limiting. I mean it's a very exclusive "high end" bike that retails for nearly 2000$ frame only, but every body knows you' would have to have an even "more exclusive" 2600$ frame (or whatever) that you had to wait half a yr for, to really have ANY HOPE what so ever, to progress as an avanced rider.
    Perhaps you'd like to post your thoughts on the El Guapo as it pertains to this thread.

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    Is it not also true the lower the ratio the more easy it is to fine tune a shock ??

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artin Aga
    Is it not also true the lower the ratio the more easy it is to fine tune a shock ??
    Generally...as long as you're not some lightweight dwarf or pencil thin cyclocross douchebag under the 170lb mark.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  44. #44
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artin Aga
    Is it not also true the lower the ratio the more easy it is to fine tune a shock ??
    Non-Nicolai owner posting....

    Most shocks are valved with an average spring rate in mind, that being somewhere in the 400-600lb range for coil springs.

    400-600lbs divided by 2.75 (as in 2.75:1 leverage ratio) = 145-218lbs. I would guess thats the average weight range of %90 of MTB riders.

    Bikes that have a slightly higher leverage will work better for lighter riders, whereas slightly lower leverage bikes will work better for heavier riders.

    2.5:1 is very low. For instance, a 150lb rider would need around a 350lb spring on a 2.5:1 bike. Thats getting close to below the spring rate most shocks were designed to run, which means the lightest compression and rebound damping settings may be too firm/slow for many people. Riders lighter than 150lbs might have a really hard time tuning these bikes in. Likewise, riders over 250lbs might not be able to get firm/slow enough settings using a 700lb spring on a 3:1 bike.

    Also, "leverage ratio" implies that the leverage on the shock is constant, which isn't the case. Some bikes start out firm and have a linear rate (great pedaling XC bikes designed for air shocks), where other bikes start out with a low leverage ratio and ramp up (i.e. FR bikes designed to ride plush with coil shocks and not bottom out)

    careful with the numbers they are only a starting point for reference. There seems to be a myth on MTBR that lower leverage is always better, however this is only true for the heavier riders. Long travel bikes with low leverage require longer shocks and springs which adds a lot of weight to the bike.

  45. #45
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    Good Info FM thanks

    Question when it comes to Air shocks is there an adventage for a lower ratio ??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Artin Aga
    Good Info FM thanks

    Question when it comes to Air shocks is there an adventage for a lower ratio ??


    I said the same thing as FM...without the cumbersome load of data and theory.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  47. #47
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    Tru Geo you did

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artin Aga
    Good Info FM thanks

    Question when it comes to Air shocks is there an adventage for a lower ratio ??
    Only when hot air is used

    Seriously, I think it depends more on which air shock.

    Quote Originally Posted by geolover


    I said the same thing as FM...without the cumbersome load of data and theory.
    I have a cumbersome load just for you, geo!

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    Yeah the EG is very limiting. I mean it's a very exclusive "high end" bike that retails for nearly 2000$ frame only, but every body knows you' would have to have an even "more exclusive" 2600$ frame (or whatever) that you had to wait half a yr for, to really have ANY HOPE what so ever, to progress as an avanced rider.
    right everybody knows that Titus does no wrong, and there is no better

    (I really like Titus, but hate this "there is nothing better than what I say/ride" view)
    Last edited by crisillo; 11-07-2007 at 05:10 AM.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by crisillo
    right everybody knows that Titus does no wrong, and there is no better

    (I really like Titus, but hate this "there is nothing better than what I say/ride" view)

    As for you, what I said could have been said about any high end bike out there so you can take your little fanboy comment , and shove it strait up your booty. I tell the truth as I know it, and no little punk b%tch like you is gonna stop me!


    Let's get one thing strait. I'm going to voice my opinion wether or not some asshat calls me a "Titus fanboy" in so many words or not. That $hit ain't gonna work on me. Just because some douche bag say's it, doesn't make it true. Because the truth is I'm not even looking at a Titus right now, and I'm no fan boy... The facts are the facts. If theres a hot bike, and I know it, I'm gonna tell the truth about that bike to the best of my ability.
    Last edited by blackagness; 11-07-2007 at 07:08 AM.

  51. #51
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    Well said FM

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    The facts are the facts. If theres a hot bike, and I know it, I'm gonna tell the truth about that bike to the best of my ability.
    What exactly did you say about the ElGuapo? As far as I see you added nothing to the conversation, the OP, comparison between the frames, or added any truth period. Maybe that was the best of your abilities...

    Maybe this is what you added:
    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    Yeah the EG is very limiting. I mean it's a very exclusive "high end" bike that retails for nearly 2000$ frame only
    Is Titus very exclusive? They are sold at more shops around me than Trek, Specialized, and Giant. They are so exclusive that the out sourced production to Taiwan to keep up with sales. And how does this matter on the ride? It doesn't, but I don't consider it as valuable as an inhouse build by a small company.

    Please take the name calling back to the Titus Board.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAO
    What exactly did you say about the ElGuapo? As far as I see you added nothing to the conversation, the OP, comparison between the frames, or added any truth period. Maybe that was the best of your abilities...

    Maybe this is what you added:


    Is Titus very exclusive? They are sold at more shops around me than Trek, Specialized, and Giant. They are so exclusive that the out sourced production to Taiwan to keep up with sales. And how does this matter on the ride? It doesn't, but I don't consider it as valuable as an inhouse build by a small company.

    Please take the name calling back to the Titus Board.

    Ok Titus sucks! They cost alot, and I've spent a couple day's on an EG, and can't for the life of me figure out how it would be limiting in any way compared to ANY bike out there. You see sarcasam is a funny thing.. you need to develope the skills to read between the lines.

    Titus makes limited production bikes. Be they al or ti. Like I said, I made a statment in regards to Whafes comment. If you don't get how it pertains to this thread that's your problem. As for name calling, if they wouldn't be the name I'm calling them, I wouldn't call them the name.

    And I'll take anything I want to any board I want. But just for you, I won't call you the name your being. Since it appears your so delecate. I wasn't aware there was a lady present.

  54. #54
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    As for you, what I said could have been said about any high end bike out there so you can take your little fanboy comment , and shove it strait up your booty. I tell the truth as I know it, and no little punk b%tch like you is gonna stop me!


    Let's get one thing strait. I'm going to voice my opinion wether or not some asshat calls me a "Titus fanboy" in so many words or not. That $hit ain't gonna work on me. Just because some douche bag say's it, doesn't make it true. Because the truth is I'm not even looking at a Titus right now, and I'm no fan boy... The facts are the facts. If theres a hot bike, and I know it, I'm gonna tell the truth about that bike to the best of my ability.
    blah blah blah

    BTW, I think the EG is a cool bike too, so as many other brands.... but let's just say you have a way with words.... and not a good way...

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by crisillo
    blah blah blah

    BTW, I think the EG is a cool bike too, so as many other brands.... but let's just say you have a way with words.... and not a good way...

    Hmmm? How? By giving a "friend" from the Titus board a little ribbing about the fact that he loves his Nicolai? And that he want's an FR over the EG IMO simply because it's a Nicolai? Wich theres certanly no harm in BTW.

    You people need to learn to pick your battles a little better, because the comment I made was in no way worth it.

  56. #56
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    God Damn Black are you Fighting again ???
    You know what for real US old Farts INCLUDING ME are realy a phetetic bunch, we are sitting here and arguing about which 6000 dollar bike is better then the other.
    Meanwihile there are kids out there on 1500 Dollar Kona stinky's who can ride circles around all of us on our bling ass bikes.
    I went to a dirt jump contest this weekend and I sat there and whatched some of these 16 year old kids do stuff on 400 dollar Hard tails that just blew my mind.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artin Aga
    God Damn Black are you Fighting again ???
    You know what for real US old Farts INCLUDING ME are realy a phetetic bunch, we are sitting here and arguing about which 6000 dollar bike is better then the other.
    Meanwihile there are kids out there on 1500 Dollar Kona stinky's who can ride circles around all of us on our bling ass bikes.
    I went to a dirt jump contest this weekend and I sat there and whatched some of these 16 year old kids do stuff on 400 dollar Hard tails that just blew my mind.

    No, no, no those kids are wrong. They can't really do the stuff they do, on those bikes. Someone just needs to tell them.

    I'm in a BAD friggen mood over my 175$ RC2 conversion of my my AM1 right now. It's got me more pissed off than even I expected... But than again I expected it to work. I CAN NOT express how TICKED OFF I've been the last two day's! Screw MTB'ing.

  58. #58
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    [QUOTE= I CAN NOT express how TICKED OFF I've been the last two day's! Screw MTB'ing.[/QUOTE]

    Dude your right I am with you Screw MTBing sell it all by big screen TV a bottle of Jack Daniels and a nice comphy couch

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artin Aga
    Dude your right I am with you Screw MTBing sell it all by big screen TV a bottle of Jack Daniels and a nice comphy couch


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    locked due to flames, PM being sent.

    -g

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