1 1/8 vs 1 1/2 Inch Headset....- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    1 1/8 vs 1 1/2 Inch Headset....

    Can somebody enlighten me. What are the advantages of using a 1 1/2 inch headset on a bike? Does it give extra strength or stiffness?
    Also, If I plan to run a rock shox lyric coil which is 1 1/8, would it be any benificial to use this larger type headset? I have been asked what size I want on my Helius FR frame and need to understand the advantages/disadvantages of both. I don't think I will be using any larger forks on the FR than 160mm although the frame will take up to 170mm. Any larger and the ST would be the better frame.

    Many thanks for any answers.

  2. #2
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    Hi ya Lorni

    I have ordered the 1.5HS on my FR.... I am a fan of the 1.5 inch size, for the fact that I believe that it is stronger and can be made stronger by the fact that there is more surfact area etc. I am not an engineer, but to me it makes sense to have a large size.... On my TFR I have the 1.5 HS, but have a reducer HS to take the Totem fork....

    On the Helius, I am going with a Fox Talas fork with the 1.5HS

    I would be inclined to go this way, you can always run a reducer if needed, but cannot go the other way so to speak...

    it is interesting to note that the 1.5HS forks can be made lighter than the 1 1/8HS forks. Not sure if this was marketing, but does seem interesting..

    Also though, Dusty Bottoms has always made a good point, who has seen failures witht he 1 1/8th HS's, no one really....

    But I am going the 1.5 HS size...

    Have probly not been a great help....
    Last edited by Whafe; 10-24-2007 at 10:36 AM.
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  3. #3
    Err
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    Whafe pretty much said it all.

    A 1.5 head tube is generally stronger than a comparable 1 1/8 head tube
    A 1.5 steerer is stronger and stiffer than a 1 1/8 steerer
    A 1 1/8 steerer has the same strength weather used in a 1.5 or 1 1/8 head tube

    So, if you
    Run a 1.5 head tube and steerer you wind up with a stronger head tube and stronger, stiffer steerer
    Run a 1.5 head tube with an 1 1/8 steerer you wind up with just a stronger head tube

    The only potential draw back is a slight weigh penalty for a 1.5 head tube over a 1 1/8 head tube. The steerer, as Whafe pointed out, is often lighter in the 1.5 size.

    Note that they Lyric is availble in 1.5 and the Fox 36 will be available in 1.5 soon (as I understand). So, we have some more AM type offerings out there using the 1.5 standard, not just big FR forks.

  4. #4
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    Hey Whafe,

    Did you say in one of your previous posts that you have riden a FR 08 for a little time? If you did, what are your impressions? How long is your frame going to take for delivery

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by lornibear
    Hey Whafe,

    Did you say in one of your previous posts that you have riden a FR 08 for a little time? If you did, what are your impressions? How long is your frame going to take for delivery
    Hi Lorni

    I spent some time on an 07 Helius FR... I have not seen an 08 in the flesh as yet.

    Err, feels that a safe bet will be January. Mine is being built in the December run... Am also having a non standard paint job, so that takes a bit more. Also, your frame does not have to travel as far...

    I know that when Nicolai finishes a frame for the USa, it is not sent until there is a few frames to freight. Just my opinion, I dont agree with this. It needs to be looked at to speed the delivery process up, the long lead and delivery time will inhibit sales for sure in the longrun.... I am not phased to wait till January, although would love it sooner.. I know I need to be on it for a race in New Zealand at the beginning of February....

    When is yours estimated to arrive?
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  6. #6
    lazy piston
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    Some points to consider:

    1.5 headtube is stronger due to larger surface area when and only when the top and down tubes are manipulated to be wider, thicker at the joint. Nicolai on the other hand use same straight tubing (butted, yes, but round on the outside) on both versions.

    1.5 headtube is heavier. The 1.5 headtube + 1.5 headset + 1.5 steerer combo OR 1.5 headtube + 1 1/8 headset + reducers + 1 1/8 steerer will be generally heavier than 1 1/8 headtube + headset + steerer combo.

    The variety of forks with 1.5 steerers is not yet as large as 1 1/8. Same with stems, there are a lot fewer 1.5 stems than 1 1/8 ones.

    If you go with 1.5 stem, you are forced to go with oversize handlebars, because if I'm not mistaken there are no 31.8 steerer / 25.4 handlebar stems. Not a big deal, but still a thing to consider.

    1.5 looks cooler though.

  7. #7
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    Hey Whafe, sorry for the delay in replying. My delivery time is going to be around eight weeks, although I am now having second thoughts. Am thinking that I can build a Helius ST up at about 34lb. Thinking of the extra travel and using it as a do it all bike. I don't want it any heavier than 35lb. Not sure if you can use a triple chainring and a front mech on it. Any ideas?

  8. #8
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    Hi Lornibear,

    Yes, you can use a front mech and dual- or triple chainring on the Helius ST, there is a removable Mechdome.
    Average frame weight of the ST is 10,56 lb, average komplete bike weight is about 41,8 lb, so max. 35 lb is nearly impossible in my opinion with the ST, even with the lightest weightweenieparts! The Helius ST is for sure not a do it all bike - weight, travel and framegeometry are Big Bike-like.
    If you want to have one Bike for everything go with the FR!

    Greetings from Cologne, Germany
    NoStyle

  9. #9
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    No worries lorni....

    I am with NoStyle all the way. I too looked at the ST, is the bomb of a bike. I really dont think it would be possible to build it to the weight you mention...

    I do think the FR is the way to go. Look at building your FR slightly heavier as I am, hence the reason for me to go with a coil shock etc...

    I am not going to go a triple ring on my FR either, I never use the big ring, have once or twice just playing going down a fire road...

    8 weeks is good timing... If you order and get into the build list, the next batch of FR's is being built in December, so could possibly have it prior to Christmas.... Now thats a great present for Christmas.... Mine will have to go to Err in the US of A first......

    Am chomping at the bit.....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  10. #10
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    Fair point on the ST frame weights gentlemen, I think I was being a little adventurous. The FR it is then. Going with the coil front and rear and should still come out a shade under 33 lb.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by lornibear
    Fair point on the ST frame weights gentlemen, I think I was being a little adventurous. The FR it is then. Going with the coil front and rear and should still come out a shade under 33 lb.
    Yeah, I am confident we can get them at around 32 - 33 pounds, am happy at that for an all day thrasher that can take the hits and trail stuff...

    In the end, could well have a spare air shock to lighten things.... I have too many bikes....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  12. #12
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    You certainly have a nice stable Whafe. An RP23 would certainly lighten things up, albiet not by much when using the CCDB. I am off to a Nicolai dealer in UK on monday to have a play. Will post some pics on my return. Roll on christmas

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by lornibear
    You certainly have a nice stable Whafe. An RP23 would certainly lighten things up, albiet not by much when using the CCDB. I am off to a Nicolai dealer in UK on monday to have a play. Will post some pics on my return. Roll on christmas
    Yes thank you, do indeed, love everyone of them. See what happens when you are an expat in a country where you cannot speak the lingo.. Am very much looking forward to moving home to New Zealand at the end of the year....


    Look forward to some pics lorni.... Pics paint many many words.....

    Bit of CCDB love for you
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    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  14. #14
    lazy piston
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    Hey lornibear,

    My FR with coils both front and rear and a double-ring crankset with a bash and a chain guide weighed just a little bit over 34#. Now that I have switched to a single ring in front it's more like 33.5#. I picked parts that I thought would be light and strong enough. I'm not sure I could squeeze it into 33 pounds without putting carbon fiber stuff on it or stupid light XC components, but I probably could drop a few more grams here and there... my problem was that I was building an all-black bike so my choice of components was a bit narrow.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smith
    Hey lornibear,

    My FR with coils both front and rear and a double-ring crankset with a bash and a chain guide weighed just a little bit over 34#. Now that I have switched to a single ring in front it's more like 33.5#. I picked parts that I thought would be light and strong enough. I'm not sure I could squeeze it into 33 pounds without putting carbon fiber stuff on it or stupid light XC components, but I probably could drop a few more grams here and there... my problem was that I was building an all-black bike so my choice of components was a bit narrow.
    A very very Yummy all black stealth bike to, I might add!..................
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  16. #16
    lazy piston
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    Thank you Whafe!

  17. #17
    Err
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    RE the weight of the Helius-ST

    I just posted my full specs of my final build before I sold mine it weighed just under 39lbs with DH tires. By swapping out for AM tires I was just under 37 lbs. I was not running a front mech so adding it, chainring, and a shifter would add a little weight. However, it would have been easy enough to drop 100g at the cranks, 400g at the wheels, 100g at the pedals, maybe another 100g combined from other areas. I think my exact weight was 36.8 lbs, so figure 35.5 with a light build. And that's still using a CCDB with a Ti spring. If you were willing to run a DHX-A or Rocco-A more weight savings could be realized.

    As for riding it in AM style, I did a couple of 25-35 mile rides with big climbs on mine. Even with only a single ring up front it did great. I could really lay down the mileage on that frame and huck any stunts along the way. I actually left mine in the middle travel setting and ran it as roughly a 7&7" bike, dropping it to the 6.5" travel setting would have prob made it pedal even better.

    One big difference though is that mine was an '05 and had a 68 deg HT angle with a 66. The new one is going to be about 66 deg with a 66, making for a bit different climbing experience.

  18. #18
    Hard funkinī Kraut
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    Hmmm, sorry Err, in full respect, but building up the ST to 35-36 lb - canīt believe that! It would result in gearing down a Hardcore-frame with super lightweight XC-Parts just to have an overall ride - seems a bit senseless to me. Headangle is claimed at 65° now!
    A Friend of mine has a 05 model, same as yours with 68° HT - thereīs a lot of difference in the riding experience now because of the slacker Head- and Seattubeangles (I demoed a 07 Model).
    Iīm on my 03 BigHit DH for several Years now, first gearing it up, now gearing it down more and more to get it usefull for all purpose. I could end up spending even more money to have the build at 17kg, but at least the downhill-like geometry wonīt give it. So itīs time for me to change frame when I like to have this do it all thing!
    In my opinion itīs better to build up the wright frame with the wright parts for the wright intended use instead of downgrade Hardcore to AM.
    All the Helius STīs shown in the MTB-News.de Nicolai Picture-threads weight about 19 kg with worthy parts to fit the frame.

    All is good
    Greetings from Cologne, Germany
    NoStyle

  19. #19
    Err
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    NoStyle, I have an Ultimate digi bike scale that I'm quoting my weights from. I was hitting 15+ drops and big 'ol gaps on my bike as described. I had been to Whistler and the shore twice, diablo, snowshoe several times, all over the darn place and holding up with no failures at that weight. Check the exact specs of my build over in the Helius-ST setup database. Plenty of people had seen an even ridden my bike first hand. It really was that light.

  20. #20
    Hard funkinī Kraut
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    Hi Err, ok ok, still believe you - pretty damn god spec and weight ...

    But as for All Mountain Use Iīm sceptic, because thereīs a slightly change in geometry as you mentioned, and yes, that makes climbing a bit more "painfull". I had the chance of direct comparsion of the 05 and 07 model. Maybe itīs personal preference, but the 05 is a really good climber, because of the steep ST which give a good seat- and pedalposition on the bike. The 07 felt a lot more "slackish", but gave more confidence on going down rough and fast. Both were closely at the same weight, so I think itīs more the geometry that counts than the overall weight - just my opinion!

    Greetings from Cologne, Germany
    NoStyle

  21. #21
    Err
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    Hehe, right on NoStyle. I believe we are in complete agreement. The new geo will need to be tweaked if you wanted to trail ride much.

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