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  1. #1
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    Winsor Trail Conditions?

    Hey all. I'm sure Winsor is ok but since I'm in ABQ I'd thought I call out to the forum for a trail condition check...

    We're heading up there on Thursday.

    Thanks in advance.

    Jay
    Last edited by jay29er; 05-10-2011 at 06:13 PM. Reason: .

  2. #2
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    The Winsor is in good shape. The SF Fat Tire Society has adopted the section above Borrego Trail and has started repairing the portion above Pacheco Canyon Road. Stream crossing are quite low compared to most years at this time.

    User conflict is still the biggest concern, so play nice, yield to hikers and ring a bell. Thanks.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sage_Cat
    The Winsor is in good shape. The SF Fat Tire Society has adopted the section above Borrego Trail and has started repairing the portion above Pacheco Canyon Road. Stream crossing are quite low compared to most years at this time.

    User conflict is still the biggest concern, so play nice, yield to hikers and ring a bell. Thanks.
    My thanks to the trail workers. Really, user conflict? In all my twenty years of riding the Winsor I have never witnessed or been involved in nothing but kind,considerate and politeness from hikers,bikers and horseback riders. Who's the ****** that has the User conflict ?
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    How could anyone have a conflict with you Maka? You're such a nice guy.
    The conflict is with the a$$holes that bomb down the trail without regard to anyone else.

    Chris sent me the pictures on the SFFTS site of the work on Windsor above Pacheco Canyon Road. That is looking really good. I have yet to play up there this year but hope to get out there with Chris this Saturday for a short ride. Thanks fo all the hard work that went into it.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by makachut
    My thanks to the trail workers. Really, user conflict? In all my twenty years of riding the Winsor I have never witnessed or been involved in nothing but kind,considerate and politeness from hikers,bikers and horseback riders. Who's the ****** that has the User conflict ?
    In my experience, user conflict happens on the lower 4 miles of trail between Tesuque and Chamisa trail. Dozens of dumbfounded d!p*****s with zero control over their obnoxious dung-dropping dogs. What a flustercluck. Exactly why I rarely ride that section. And refer to it as D0gshit Alley.

  6. #6
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    There is trail work actually happening again by the club at 9 AM today, meeting at Norski.

    Here are the pix that yogi referred to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bandagan
    Rancho Viejo?
    Good to ride along with REM,Capulin,Borrego
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    I bombed down Winsor (Borrego/Big T "figure 8") on Sunday w/ the IMBA crew, but made sure to put on the binders hard when I came near hikers (i'm one too after all), said hello and told them how many more riders coming. The free Trails Alliance bells work well. One can't be dingin the thing at every blind corner so the IMBA guy said that on busy trails (some near Boulder) many use a mini cow bell that rattles all the time. Hikers can hear you coming from far away and no surprises.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandagan
    I can't even stand the sound of chain rub, or the creaking of my outdated FauxBar.

    If I rode with someone that had a cowbell, I might have to buy an EyEpOd .
    You're so sensitive. Yea, a cowbell would drive me crazy too. I think I need a little Tinker Bell for my bike.....that fits my personality better.

    My current solution is to lube my brakes before a ride on a busy trail. That way, when I see a hiker I just slam right into them Just joking.....really. Cadabra has the right idea. The best thing is to be nice. I know a lot of people have a hard time with that...afterall it is hard to be nice when you feel bad about yourself.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogiprophet
    ...afterall it is hard to be nice when you feel bad about yourself.
    Oh Yogi... don't get 'em going!
    Dug-Da-Goat

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    ...so welcome to the Odyssey!

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    Thanks everyone for the input. I always have respect for all that share the trail.

    It will be my first time riding Winsor, si I'm pretty stoked!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandagan
    How the heck are they going to get those wheelchairs down REM?






    .
    SFFTS & IMBA will come in and turn those trails into sidewalks. Then they'll bargain them away in a deal with the New Mexico Wilderness Alliance for the lower Winsor
    Don't worry, as long as the wheelcahirs do not have motors, they'll still have access to REM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandagan
    How the heck are they going to get those wheelchairs down REM?






    .
    Wheelchairs, that's what I call a Full Suspension bike,and they are widening the trail on a daily bases
    SingleSpeed,in the way
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by delnorte
    SFFTS & IMBA will come in and turn those trails into sidewalks. Then they'll bargain them away in a deal with the New Mexico Wilderness Alliance for the lower Winsor
    Don't worry, as long as the wheelcahirs do not have motors, they'll still have access to REM.
    If you mean turning unsustainable eroded trails into ones that will last a long while, then yes, that is what they are doing.
    I know it does decreases the time it takes to get from one end of the trail to the other after their trail work is done and thus may decrease the fun factor for some like you and Bandos, but could it be possibile that you guys do not represent all users? May I suggest now trying to climb that trail and tell me how you feel about it. For me, climbing Windsor above Pacheco was very hard (almost impossible at spots) because of all the errosion, and I for one am looking forward to trying it now.
    You may even now save some natural resources by not needing to shuttle.

    What would be cool would be to get a group of hard core riders out there to add some features in places that would still allow all users to enjoy the trail.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by delnorte
    SFFTS & IMBA will come in and turn those trails into sidewalks. Then they'll bargain them away in a deal with the New Mexico Wilderness Alliance for the lower Winsor
    Don't worry, as long as the wheelcahirs do not have motors, they'll still have access to REM.
    Come on TJ, why the negativity. Have you been on the trail section in the past couple weeks?. It wasn't fun, technical stuff that was flattened. It was a trail that was cupped in the middle and would continue to get eroded and less fun to ride if it wasn't addressed. If you like the stuff in between what we repaired and N of Pacheho (rutted crap IMO) then it is true that you will not like what be did (take off the downslope berm so water can run off the trail and not down it, move trees). If you think water should run down the trails and not off the trail ASAP, then you are not in line with everything the FS and IMBA recommends. How about come out to a trail work day and help out and see what is happening first hand?

    Instead of posting here, why not speak with Jennifer Sublett of the FS directly, since she guided the Winsor work, and let her know your concerns.

    If you are concerned about Wilderness encroachment, why not come to a meeting or get involved? You are more than welcome.

    Yogi and I are going to ride Winsor Sat near lunch. Want to join us?

  16. #16
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    No good

    Quote Originally Posted by yogiprophet
    If you mean turning unsustainable eroded trails into ones that will last a long while, then yes, that is what they are doing.
    I know it does decreases the time it takes to get from one end of the trail to the other after their trail work is done and thus may decrease the fun factor for some like you and Bandos, but could it be possibile that you guys do not represent all users? May I suggest now trying to climb that trail and tell me how you feel about it. For me, climbing Windsor above Pacheco was very hard (almost impossible at spots) because of all the errosion, and I for one am looking forward to trying it now.
    You may even now save some natural resources by not needing to shuttle.

    What would be cool would be to get a group of hard core riders out there to add some features in places that would still allow all users to enjoy the trail.
    That trail has historically existed as an avenue to move livestock since before it was perceived as a recreational tool for modern users. It has endured all this time just fine. Especially considering the fact that livestock causes more erosion realted damage than cyclist/hikers. Those trails are sustainable without being turned into sidewalks. Sustainable is a relative term.
    I don't assume I represent all users. I'm sure people who want smooth paths do not represent all users, either. I even know a lot of hikers who despise the way those trails have been changed into a sculpted highway. I loved trying to climb it the way it was. Pushing a bike every now and then is completely acceptable to me. If you want to climb a wheelchair path, go ahead. It was much better the way it was.

    I don't shuttle Winsor. I climb it. I'll be climbing it to ride REM this Sunday with some other Bandoleros. I have no issues climbing the top of that trail and pushing any sections that are too hard to ride. I don't need it sculpted to accomodate my skill level. All of your assumptions about me and what I do on a bike are ridiculous. You are using pure stereotypical assessments to comment on someone whom you know nothing about.

    As far as incorporating certain features into parts of the trail, - that's a cop-out. That portion of Winsor trail, itself, was it's own feature. It was the best part of the Winsor - now it's dumbed down in the name of supposed "good deeds". That's why I decided I would not show up for that trail work day. I was not going to take part in dumbing down one of Santa Fe's only high alpine MTB accessible trails. We don't have much access in our own high alpine area that has that quality. It's so sad that organizations that are supposed to be "helping the community" are in fact subscribing to theory's that work against us. If these organizations want to play dumb, and choose to subscribe to forest service policies and IMBA suggestions that are rooted in errored philosophy, and ultimately dictated by their accomodation of ruling agencies, then they deserved to be called out. What ever happened to challenging the system instead of just blindly cooperating with it like a bunch of sheep? That's how the USA was created. It's not always a bad thing.
    The upper Winsor project is lame and sad. That is all. Those mountains are crying right now... and so am I.
    Last edited by delnorte; 05-12-2011 at 11:55 AM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by delnorte
    That trail has historically existed as an avenue to move livestock since before it was perceived as a recreational tool for modern users. It has endured all this time just fine. Especially considering the fact that livestock causes more erosion realted damage than cyclist/hikers. Those trails are sustainable without being turned into sidewalks. Sustainable is a relative term.
    I don't assume I represent all users. I'm sure people who want smooth paths do not represent all users, either. I even know a lot of hikers who despise the way those trails have been changed into a sculpted highway. I loved trying to climb it the way it was. Pushing a bike every now and then is completely acceptable to me. If you want to climb a wheelchair path, go ahead. It was much better the way it was.

    I don't shuttle Winsor. I climb it. I'll be climbing it to ride REM this Sunday with some other Bandoleros. I have no issues climbing the top of that trail and pushing any sections that are too hard to ride. I don't need it sculpted to accomodate my skill level. All of your assumptions about me and what I do on a bike are ridiculous. You are using pure stereotypical assessments to comment on someone whom you know nothing about.

    As far as incorporating certain features into parts of the trail, - that's a cop-out. That portion of Winsor trail, itself, was it's own feature. It was the best part of the Winsor - now it's dumbed down in the name of supposed "good deeds". That's why I decided I would not show up for that trail work day. I was not going to take part in dumbing down one of Santa Fe's only high alpine MTB accessible trails. We don't have much access in our own high alpine area that has that quality. It's so sad that organizations that are supposed to be "helping the community" are in fact subscribing to theory's that work against us. If these organizations want to play dumb, and choose to subscribe to forest service policies and IMBA suggestions that are rooted in errored philosophy, and ultimately dictated by their accomodation of ruling agencies, then they deserved to be called out. What ever happened to challenging the system instead of just blindly cooperating with it like a bunch of sheep? That's how the USA was created. It's not always a bad thing.
    The upper Winsor project is lame and sad. That is all. Those mountains are crying right now... and so am I.
    Those mountains are crying??? Do you mean to say - the physical world is a projection of our internal reality.
    This situation reminds me of something that happened in N.C. A friend and myself went out on a favorite trail of ours and cut down a bunch of downed trees and cleaned up a few loose rocks on a section of trail so we could bomb down it at hyperspeed without stopping. Another user was upset with us because he liked the downed trees and loose rocks. We were clueless that others would feel that way. This is not the same situation since we were not actually repairing a damaged trail. I run into situations all the time were a decision needs to be made and many people do not like the outcome of the decision even though a majority ruled....many did not get their way and are upset like you are now. I haven't seen the trail yet, but know that section and I am personally happy about it because certain sections of that trail were just getting worse with time from erosion. You may have liked it the way it was before and "know a lot of hikers" that agree with you. From my understanding (and I may be wrong here) IMBA is in the business of helping organizations like SFFTS repair and build sustainable cycling trails in that they drain well and will not wash out after hard rains and snow. The erosion on Windsor was just getting worse over the time I've been using it which hasn't been long. Now I know you don't see it that way and I understand your POV.
    I was mostly just blowing a bunch of hot air in my previous post to see how you would respond and what is on your mind. Everytime I ride with the Bandos we shuttle even if its for a couple of mile...no biggy, I drive my car to the trails so am I doing the world any better service. For that matter, are any of us really making the world a better place. I think that is the real question here. Are the choices we make for ourselves or for the planet or even for future generations? It would be interesting to get a glimps into the future and see what the trail would look like if nobody did any trail work and if they did..and even what the users felt about each situation. I can speculate, but we may never know.
    You didn't like my first suggestion, so I will make one more (I promise that will be it). Since you don't agree with how SFFTS operates, you could create your own society that builds trails that don't drain well so over time they will have deep rutts and over features that you and your hiker friends like....just a thought.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by foolsgold
    I like Turtles...

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    That's what I'm sayin.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabra cadabra
    Come on TJ, why the negativity. It wasn't fun, technical stuff that was flattened. It was a trail that was cupped in the middle and would continue to get eroded and less fun to ride if it wasn't addressed.
    Don't bother Bob, these are the same yahoo's that think it's OK to ride a muddy trail and leave deep track marks that turn into the "troughing" you're talking about and become gutters that turn into erroded ruts strewn with babyhead trash!

    I'm still seeing the results of this type of headset all over the North foothills here in Abq!

    And not to mention the poor kittens!
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  20. #20
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    Right on Bro!

    Quote Originally Posted by delnorte
    That trail has historically existed as an avenue to move livestock since before it was perceived as a recreational tool for modern users. It has endured all this time just fine. Especially considering the fact that livestock causes more erosion realted damage than cyclist/hikers. Those trails are sustainable without being turned into sidewalks. Sustainable is a relative term.
    I don't assume I represent all users. I'm sure people who want smooth paths do not represent all users, either. I even know a lot of hikers who despise the way those trails have been changed into a sculpted highway. I loved trying to climb it the way it was. Pushing a bike every now and then is completely acceptable to me. If you want to climb a wheelchair path, go ahead. It was much better the way it was.

    I don't shuttle Winsor. I climb it. I'll be climbing it to ride REM this Sunday with some other Bandoleros. I have no issues climbing the top of that trail and pushing any sections that are too hard to ride. I don't need it sculpted to accomodate my skill level. All of your assumptions about me and what I do on a bike are ridiculous. You are using pure stereotypical assessments to comment on someone whom you know nothing about.

    As far as incorporating certain features into parts of the trail, - that's a cop-out. That portion of Winsor trail, itself, was it's own feature. It was the best part of the Winsor - now it's dumbed down in the name of supposed "good deeds". That's why I decided I would not show up for that trail work day. I was not going to take part in dumbing down one of Santa Fe's only high alpine MTB accessible trails. We don't have much access in our own high alpine area that has that quality. It's so sad that organizations that are supposed to be "helping the community" are in fact subscribing to theory's that work against us. If these organizations want to play dumb, and choose to subscribe to forest service policies and IMBA suggestions that are rooted in errored philosophy, and ultimately dictated by their accomodation of ruling agencies, then they deserved to be called out. What ever happened to challenging the system instead of just blindly cooperating with it like a bunch of sheep? That's how the USA was created. It's not always a bad thing.
    The upper Winsor project is lame and sad. That is all. Those mountains are crying right now... and so am I.
    I have to concur with del Norte on this one. Sometimes things are best left alone. I remember laying many first st tracks at La Tierra and working with the neighborhood associations to keep it clean and open and then a well intentioned group took over and decided it needed to be manicured. Now look at it. Soon there will be posted speed limits. Can't and shouldn't mountain biking be a difficult self satisfying sport regardless of the hardscrabble, walkups, drops and such?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve O'Punc
    I have to concur with del Norte on this one. Sometimes things are best left alone. I remember laying many first st tracks at La Tierra and working with the neighborhood associations to keep it clean and open and then a well intentioned group took over and decided it needed to be manicured. Now look at it. Soon there will be posted speed limits. Can't and shouldn't mountain biking be a difficult self satisfying sport regardless of the hardscrabble, walkups, drops and such?
    your 2,000 miles away and you know what LT looks like,Dream traveler. The problem is that the trail groomers around here lack bike handling skills and want to ride what WE ride& talk about without gaining the experience & skills that comes from years of riding trails. Pay your dues ,crash and learn and stop dumbing down the trails for your interests only.
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  22. #22
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    You guys are correct.

    The biggest unmet need in the mountain bike community is for advanced riders (and beginner riders). The IMBA trail crew and Fat Tire Society made this clear at the recent trail building weekend.

    Could you please make a practical proposal for advanced trail segments or trail options? Then, we could all work with land managers to make it happen for you. Or, come help us plan where not to do maintenance?

    People with your experience are so needed in our planning for the future. Come help educate the trail community or give positive ideas. Meeting on June 13. I look forward to digging next to you and learning to crash better.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sage_Cat
    ....and learning to crash better.
    You're too funny, but you are right, there is an art to this... first step, take Judo, it will teach ya how to tuck and roll.
    Dug-Da-Goat

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    ...so welcome to the Odyssey!

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  24. #24
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    That sounds great! building sustainable trails that meet the needs of all users. Not sure how it would be done, but would like to learn. Cat, please post again for those of us without calenders on our desks.

    BTW, Cadabra and I rode Windsor yesterday and had a great time. There was only a small protion of trail that was redone, so those who love the chunky stuff shouldn't be bummed. To me, it is all about contrast. How can you appreciate chuck, if there wasn't portions of trail without it. It was kinda nice to ride the steep chunky stuff then have a short break to relax and then more ruts to manuever. Sweet riding for sure

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sage_Cat View Post
    You guys are correct.

    The biggest unmet need in the mountain bike community is for advanced riders (and beginner riders). The IMBA trail crew and Fat Tire Society made this clear at the recent trail building weekend.

    Could you please make a practical proposal for advanced trail segments or trail options? Then, we could all work with land managers to make it happen for you. Or, come help us plan where not to do maintenance?

    People with your experience are so needed in our planning for the future. Come help educate the trail community or give positive ideas. Meeting on June 13. I look forward to digging next to you and learning to crash better.
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=719528

    Here is an interesting thread on building fun sustainable trails.

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