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  1. #1
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    Otero conditions?

    A post in an earlier thread got me thinking that most, if not all, of Tunnel & Otero are clear and good to go. Can someone confirm or deny that form me please?

    If it's clear, planning to ride out there around 10:00-10:15 tomorrow morning. The more, the merrier.

    Thanks,
    ABQ Clyde

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    Not exactly clear, but definitely rideable. I plan on starting at 4pm when it starts to firm up a bit. I plan on being out there for a few hours. You'd be welcome cuz everyone else bailed on the ride, but bring lights. I did a loop yesterday - Otero, Tio Juanita, West Ridge, Birdhouse. It was fun, fun, especially BH! The only negative is that you have to HAB up TJ, since no one has been hiking, but once you top out on WR it's all rideable. Birdhouse is especially "interesting."

    Guilty Pleasures

    Otero conditions?-solotero-8-.jpg

    Otero conditions?-dsc00003.jpg

    Otero conditions?-solotero-1-.jpg

    This is about as bad as it gets on WR.

    Otero conditions?-solotero-3-.jpg

  3. #3
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    onetwothree, thanks for getting back to me. That looks like too much snow and too much HAB for our taste. We're going to stick with the south footies tomorrow.

    Thanks again,
    ABQ Clyde

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABQ Clydesdale View Post
    A post in an earlier thread got me thinking that most, if not all, of Tunnel & Otero are clear and good to go. Can someone confirm or deny that form me please?

    If it's clear, planning to ride out there around 10:00-10:15 tomorrow morning. The more, the merrier.

    Thanks,
    ABQ Clyde
    Its pretty cherry now. Otero only had two HAB. Everywhere else was nyoce

  5. #5
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    Got about an inch of snow last night.
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  6. #6
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    damn we were in the perfect window then.... OneTwoThree likes riding in the snow, when hes on a fat bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuglio View Post
    damn we were in the perfect window then.... OneTwoThree likes riding in the snow, when hes on a fat bike.
    In all earnest, we could have used an inch of snow and the lower temps. My internal barometer needs a little calibration.

    Fat = PHUN!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by onetwothree View Post
    In all earnest, we could have used an inch of snow and the lower temps. My internal barometer needs a little calibration.

    Fat = PHUN!
    I was happy exactly what i wanted.I just got winded quick and couldn't go any faster then slow. It would have been fun if bird house was as slick as some of the lower shit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuglio View Post
    I was happy exactly what i wanted.I just got winded quick and couldn't go any faster then slow. It would have been fun if bird house was as slick as some of the lower shit
    I was looking forward to the packed snow, myself.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by onetwothree View Post
    I was looking forward to the packed snow, myself.
    We got about 3-4in overnight and still snowing. More expected Wed. Just in the nick of time.Thank you mother nature
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  11. #11
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    Onetwothree must have done a snow dance,he loves that snow pack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuglio View Post
    Onetwothree must have done a snow dance,he loves that snow pack.
    When you guys weren't looking on the Black Moon ride.

    The additional moisture will likely help conceal any "evidence."

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    Im not worried about evidence, because there was no crime. A sow pack ride would be fun. Maybe next Friday?

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    I wish I had onetwothree's money. A new phatbyke? danga.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the_owl View Post
    I wish I had onetwothree's money. A new phatbyke? danga.
    lol, you do. $20 to be exact, Dawg!

    Seriously, I would no sooner own a Fatty than I would a hot tub. Too much maintenance.

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    poor kittens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the_owl View Post
    poor kittens.
    Kittens eventually grow into cats as they are extremely resilient creatures. There are way too many cats. Just doing our part to reduce the population, so they don't suffer.

  18. #18
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    At the risk of being redundant with my request for updates over there, can anyone tell us how the conditions at Otero and Tunnel are after all the warmth this week?

    Thanks,
    ABQ Clyde

  19. #19
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    Muddy or perfection. .. its kind of a grey area. Otero is slow to dry out in that cold shady canyon. Surrounding trails may be fine for Saturday. Tunnel up west ridge to bird house and bomb back. Try out lps lunas for a sure thing

  20. #20
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    Thank you, sir!

  21. #21
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    I rode up the dump road (462) at Cedro today. Dump road is fine but any single track that was shaded was nasty mud-I didn't ride in it, just headed down trails until I hit the slop then back tracked.

  22. #22
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    I haven't been in Otero lately but there's still snow on the slopes and we had a couple come in reporting snow, ice and mud on a hike of Tunnel and Birdhouse. I'm betting another week and the trails will be in good shape.

  23. #23
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    Thanks everyone. I really appreciate the info. We'll be sticking to the foothills today with an eye toward Tunnel and Otero next week.

    ABQ Clyde

  24. #24
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    Gutierrez canyon trail in Cedar Crest is about 95% dry and in good shape. I only ran into two other riders there today. Bet the foot hills were packed.
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  25. #25
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    Warm weather has me dreaming of Otero. Any news. Rideable by Saturday?
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  26. #26
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    Thats the expectation. Saturday it was still muddy. But Saturday should be good. Its probably a good idea to get your riding in now before it gets locked up.

  27. #27
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    From what I'm told. there is still plenty of muddy stretches in Otero as of yesterday. So I wouldn't count on great conditions. Earlier the better. There are some good dry stretches in sunny areas up on top.
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  28. #28
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    Not to hijack but has anyone rode Oak Flats recently? I was thinking of getting out there Sunday.
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  29. #29
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    Areas around David Canyon are in pretty good shape. 3-Bottles had a little mud but not bad. Otero has more mud than anywhere I rode today.Some spots were pretty bad. West ridge and Tunnel are in great shape. Dry and fast. Otero needs more time.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52 View Post
    Areas around David Canyon are in pretty good shape. 3-Bottles had a little mud but not bad. Otero has more mud than anywhere I rode today.Some spots were pretty bad. West ridge and Tunnel are in great shape. Dry and fast. Otero needs more time.
    Drop In was pretty "clumpy" and the top of Gnasty was also wet. Bottom of Tio Juanito was a little moist. Very top of Birdhouse also muddy... anything north facing up high with snow... other than that it seemed OK. I'd say by next weekend all should be pretty good to go!
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  31. #31
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    Otero is drying out quick. Everything from the PL to Tio Juanito were good to go today Only a few small soft spots.
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  32. #32
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    Sweet. Looks like I'll be on a post work ride tomorrow. Three Bottles area was looking dryish on Mon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mungry View Post
    Not to hijack but has anyone rode Oak Flats recently? I was thinking of getting out there Sunday.
    Bump!
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  34. #34
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    I haven't been over there but it should be ok. I'm just across the hwy on Raven and my property is dry now.
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  35. #35
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    Hope you got your ride in early. Pretty wet up here now.
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  36. #36
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    Sweet! Yay for rain!

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  37. #37
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    How's it looking for this weekend?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjlama View Post
    How's it looking for this weekend?
    Without more moisture it should be GTG
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  39. #39
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    Thanks! Hopefully I have enough time to get up there Saturday morning.

  40. #40
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    How is it looking out there?

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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighSpeedChase View Post
    How is it looking out there?

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    Good to go. No moisture over night here. Rode through Three bottles yesterday afternoon and lots of hero dirt.
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  42. #42
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    Any rain out there today (Saturday)?
    No rain forecasted tonight.
    Want to hit it tomorrow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlx john View Post
    Any rain out there today (Saturday)?
    No rain forecasted tonight.
    Want to hit it tomorrow.
    No rain and I left at 3pm. Did see a few snow flurries. Some damp (not muddy) spots at the top of Birdhouse. Conditions on Gnasty and DropIn were extraordinary! Have fun.
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  44. #44
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    WE got quite a bit of rain and about an inch of snow yesterday, East mtns will be muddy today.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52 View Post
    WE got quite a bit of rain and about an inch of snow yesterday, East mtns will be muddy today.
    Heh, yeah I got stuck out there in some of that around 4pm. It was hailing pretty hard for a bit, then turned into rain. It also got cold as hell pretty quick. Had to start braking with my middle fingers cause my index fingers were numb! Quite an interesting ride! Maybe that's why Lynn was telling me to carry a hard shell....

  46. #46
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    Otero-Tunnel are GTG.
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  47. #47
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    Otero conditions?-april-snow-001.jpgGo figure. Started coming down about an hour ago. Probably melt just as fast.
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  48. #48
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    Sandias too

    Otero conditions?-ski-cam-latest.jpg
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  49. #49
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    I am actually happy to see it get some moisture after what I saw yesterday. It was dry dry dry. The wind was blowing the dust down the trail big time. If it can get a little moisture every 1-2 weeks it will be for the greater good.
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  50. #50
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    Any word on how things look out there for this weekend? Did yesterday's..."event" put down enough moisture that we should avoid it for this weekend or is it good to go?

  51. #51
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    You would never know that it snowed. All GTG
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  52. #52
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    Mountains look pretty doom and gloom from town. Any moisture up there or is it all for show?
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  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighSpeedChase View Post
    Mountains look pretty doom and gloom from town. Any moisture up there or is it all for show?
    We got a little snow over night. Trees are flocked and a dusting on the ground. Light flurries right now. I'll take whatever we can get.
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  54. #54
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    Thank you, thank you, thank you mothernature! We had a big Thunderstorn in the middle of the night. Lots so rain. In about the 3/4 in range.Nice and wet right now. Just what the new trails in 3-B needed.
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  55. #55
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    Woohooo! Should be ride-able by this afternoon though right?

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skelldify View Post
    Woohooo! Should be ride-able by this afternoon though right?
    Just keep your eye to the sky. More thunderstorms expected today.
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  57. #57
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    As of an hour ago, perfect conditions. Not dusty but no mud either. Basically great traction with nothing sticking to tires.
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. 68 Hundred View Post
    As of an hour ago, perfect conditions. Not dusty but no mud either. Basically great traction with nothing sticking to tires.
    Another Thunderstorm has moved in now. Very hard rain and hail. 1:45pm. I wouldn't want to be out there right now. Ground is nearly white.
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  59. #59
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    I was just about to ask haha! Saw the radar online and was curious if my eyes were deceiving me...Hooray for rain!
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  60. #60
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    So glad to hear there's rain at home. After 16 days outta town, I'll be itching to ride! Hope the new stuff on 3 Bottles gets well packed!

  61. #61
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    I'm guessing it'll be muddy tomorrow?

  62. #62
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    The Oak Flat rain gage is only showing 0.35 inches, but I don't think it accounts very well for the hail. Hopefully Steve will chime in soon with a live report!
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  63. #63
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    Right now it's nice and moist. Ground is still pretty firm and not really muddy. You'll probably run into some mud in a few typical areas. But hero dirt by mid morning I bet. Go hit some sh!t and while your at it. Go pack in 3-B. It needs some riders on it
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    Thanks Steve!
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    Another hour and a half of good solid rain again today. Sweet! Sure hope this keeps us out of closure this year. Things are starting to get nice and saturated.
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  66. #66
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    It's going to be an awesome day. Hero Dirt Day! Go hit that sh!t!
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  67. #67
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    Anybody ride out at Otero or Cedro today? What what is like? Raining in Edgewood again tonight. Nearly an inch since Friday!

    NMc

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmcaseman View Post
    Anybody ride out at Otero or Cedro today? What what is like? Raining in Edgewood again tonight. Nearly an inch since Friday!

    NMc
    Three days in a row here at Raven Rd. Been raining for about an hour and a half steady. Amazing the change in just a few days. Didn't get out on the trail but condititons here at my place were good.
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  69. #69
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    Guessing I should cancel my morning ride for tomorrow?
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmcaseman View Post
    Anybody ride out at Otero or Cedro today? What what is like? Raining in Edgewood again tonight. Nearly an inch since Friday!

    NMc
    Rode otero at 10:30 up to 3 bottles today, it was perfect dirt! A couple muddy spots thats it.

  71. #71
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    Thanks for the reports mtbike52 and palerider. Stopped raining here but not sure what to think about tomorrow. Probably venture out and see what things are like.

    NMc

  72. #72
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    It's pretty wet out right now, but the ground is still pretty firm. I bet in just a couple of hours things will be GTG.
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  73. #73
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    Rode Tunnel/Otero Ridge Birdhouse a few hours ago and it would be hard to find anything to complain about. Surface was tight and fast. Doubt the rain had any effect on the fire danger, so ride while you can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrebyter View Post
    Rode Tunnel/Otero Ridge Birdhouse a few hours ago and it would be hard to find anything to complain about. Surface was tight and fast. Doubt the rain had any effect on the fire danger, so ride while you can.
    I think the last round of soaking will most certainly have an effect. My internal barometer senses more is on the way in the next few days.

  75. #75
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    I didn't get to make it to three bottles yesterday but Tunnel/Otero and especially that north face of Gnasty was sick!
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    Got to finally go for a good long ride today. David Canyon, 3-Bs, Otero and Tunnel. Longest ride for me in three months. Since I broke my collarbone. It was awesome! Trail conditions are pretty dang good. It's dry, but not as bad as last year. Last year the trails were powder. While heading down Otero I came across some Bern. Co Fire- Rescue guys walking a bike. They were with a biker that just broke his collarbone. Wow! Talk about flashbacks. He was in good spirits and walking out with the Fire guys. A slow healing process ahead. Every body take care out there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52 View Post
    Got to finally go for a good long ride today. David Canyon, 3-Bs, Otero and Tunnel. Longest ride for me in three months. Since I broke my collarbone. It was awesome! Trail conditions are pretty dang good. It's dry, but not as bad as last year. Last year the trails were powder. While heading down Otero I came across some Bern. Co Fire- Rescue guys walking a bike. They were with a biker that just broke his collarbone. Wow! Talk about flashbacks. He was in good spirits and walking out with the Fire guys. A slow healing process ahead. Every body take care out there.
    Odd that there were 3 or more ppl in his group, but they opted to call the firemen instead of helping him out themselves. They were all huddled in the p-lot while they firemen had to hump 3 miles up to fetch him. It only took one of them to bring his bike down, but there were 7 total. Pretty sure most, if not all, of his group had left by the time he made it out. The firemen were in good spirits, though, as was the dood from the pain meds.

  78. #78
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    Excellent out there this afternoon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrebyter View Post
    Excellent out there this afternoon.
    Most!

  80. #80
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    Conditions are very wet. We got hours of steady rain overnight last night. Just the kind of soaking we were needing. Going to make for some great conditions.
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  81. #81
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    and now its quiet again..

  82. #82
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    Would you think it'd be too muddy/wet for an after work ride around 5 or so?
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    I rode Birdhouse yesterday and the bottom was pretty dry. W. ridge, Otero, Tunnel connector as well. I am sure even if the trails got a lot of moisture, you would be good to go today.

    Even when ABQ gets a lot of rain, never sure about the trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrickd72 View Post
    I rode Birdhouse yesterday and the bottom was pretty dry. W. ridge, Otero, Tunnel connector as well. I am sure even if the trails got a lot of moisture, you would be good to go today.

    Even when ABQ gets a lot of rain, never sure about the trails.
    The East Mtns have been skipped with most of the rain Abq has been getting. Everything was getting dusty. There was about an hour of rain over by the Sandias earlier today. But no more south of I-40. Looks like hero dirt here now unless we get more rain later.
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    Sweet thanks or the update!

    Now to play the waiting game...*stares at work clock*
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    Well.... There went that idea!
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    With rain pretty much every day, and rain overnight. Conditions up here in the David Canyon area are fairly soft, wet and some mud. A little sunshine will help a lot. Conditions usually get better the further down the mtn you go toward Tunnel. Hoping for lots of hero dirt by mid morning. See you on the trail.
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    Looks like a great day to ride. Conditions are great today!
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    we tormented a few kittens, but there were no fatalities.......
    Don't hate me because I'm Ti

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    There was quite a bit of rain up here yesterday. Going to make for some great conditions later today and over the weekend.
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    Conditions were amazing today!!! My friend and I rode around noon and wow that was an amazing trail! A little soft at the very top where there is an intersection, being that it was our first ride on Otero and we are not from ABQ we decided to turn around, assuming we were at the top. Amazing ride on the way back down. Fast, flowy, jumps, log rides, drops, and perfect dirt. One of the best true mountain bike trails that I have ever ridden. You guys are lucky to have such an amazing trail literally 20 minutes from town.
    Last edited by provin1327; 08-10-2014 at 02:54 PM.
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    My friends chain broke and with no quick links it took a while, plus we played around on some logs and jumps. I think all around it was 2.5 hours but if it were just me up and down about 5 miles each way would have probably only taken about an hour
    2 Hands Working Do More Than 1000 Hands Praying

  93. #93
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    Quite a bit of rain over the last couple of hours. Might be wet early tomorrow but I bet some good hero dirt by mid morning.
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    Got to Otero around 10am and the water in the arroyo right out of the PL was running with lots of mud. After that one spot the trail conditions were as good as they can get. All the way up and including Three Bottles were perfect. Blue sky, tall green grass and great trails. What else can you ask for?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52 View Post
    Got to Otero around 10am and the water in the arroyo right out of the PL was running with lots of mud. After that one spot the trail conditions were as good as they can get. All the way up and including Three Bottles were perfect. Blue sky, tall green grass and great trails. What else can you ask for?
    Hotties on trail would be what else I'd ask for!

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    Anyone have a condition report for this Saturday morning?
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighSpeedChase View Post
    Anyone have a condition report for this Saturday morning?
    I was on the trail early or I would have let you know that conditions were some where between killer and bad ass. Hope you went out and got some.
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  98. #98
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    Quite a bit of rain up here over the last 24 hours. Some steady rain right now at 6 pm. Probably going to be some muddy conditions early tomorrow.
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    Chyeah, I tried Lower Pine for the first time this morning. I climbed for a while, it got muddy, I turned around, and promptly got a flat. Remind me never to ride within 24 hours of rain again!

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    Guessing its snowy and/or crappy over there?

  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skelldify View Post
    Guessing its snowy and/or crappy over there?
    We got about 4-5in up here. Sun has popped out now. Might be time for a snow ride now.
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  102. #102
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    Hi Steve,

    If you happen to see this, do you mind providing an update as to how trail conditions are in your neck of the woods as of now?

    Thanks,
    ABQ Clyde

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABQ Clydesdale View Post
    Hi Steve,

    If you happen to see this, do you mind providing an update as to how trail conditions are in your neck of the woods as of now?

    Thanks,
    ABQ Clyde
    Just got home. Looks like quite a bit melted today. About 1/2 of the ground has still got some snow up here at Raven Rd. Lower down will have less snow. I would hit it early or it could get muddy.
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    Thanks Steve!

  105. #105
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    Anyone ride east mountains Saturday?
    Mud, snow?
    2020 SC CC Hightower

  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlx john View Post
    Anyone ride east mountains Saturday?
    Mud, snow?
    Early was not to bad, Afternoon was bad. Blue Ribbon was prob in the best shape and Otero the worst shape. Lots of mud.
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  107. #107
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    Any recent rides in the east mountains? Should be warm on Thursday and Friday and I'll be riding, just need to determine where.

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    Any updates? I've been out of town....

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skelldify View Post
    Any updates? I've been out of town....
    I was told that by late today conditions were pretty good. There are prob the typical spots that dry last. More rain possable tomorrow.
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    Well, I was unaware that it rained last night. Parked at Otero and rode as far as the intersection with Tunnero. It was really muddy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skelldify View Post
    Well, I was unaware that it rained last night. Parked at Otero and rode as far as the intersection with Tunnero. It was really muddy.
    Mud sucks! I had to head out early today other I would have posted the conditions. Looks like lots of fairly warm weather ahead. If we dont get some snow we might be riding Otero at Christmas.
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    Checked it out again today, it was only slightly less muddy than it was on Sunday. I'd still call it unrideable. My drivetrain and tires get pretty gunked up in just the 1/2 mile that I rode. Buuuut, it looks like people have been riding anyway, and widening the trails up nicely....

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    Is the Cedro side as bad? It tends to be drier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by warimono View Post
    Is the Cedro side as bad? It tends to be drier.
    I haven't had a chance to get out there in December, and I don't remember when the last moisture was. But the west side of Cedro was mostly dry. I entered the trail from five hills road, and never got too far east. There were muddy spots, but in general, it was dry.

  115. #115
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    About 6 in. of wet, heavy snow here near Mars Ct. This one will probably end the East Mtn. season. Don't think if there will be enough dry and warm weather to dry it out again.
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    This is good. Trails need winter, gives them a break, sets us up for some good riding come spring.

  117. #117
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    Nice Brian
    Bandolero

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    For he two weeks a year a fatbike would be advantageous. Looks like fun! :-)

    I ridden north footies in the snow, but total snow cover that lasts for more than a day is so rare. If it is still like this I might be down to hit it up again this weekend.

    Pax

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    Quote Originally Posted by warimono View Post
    For he two weeks a year a fatbike would be advantageous. Looks like fun! :-)

    I ridden north footies in the snow, but total snow cover that lasts for more than a day is so rare. If it is still like this I might be down to hit it up again this weekend.

    Pax
    Fat Bike, Schmat Bike...

    Otero conditions?-snowtero-4-.jpg

    Otero conditions?-snowtero-3-.jpg

    Otero conditions?-snowtero-5-.jpg

    Just add vigor.

  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by warimono View Post
    For he two weeks a year a fatbike would be advantageous. Looks like fun! :-)

    I ridden north footies in the snow, but total snow cover that lasts for more than a day is so rare. If it is still like this I might be down to hit it up again this weekend.

    Pax
    Yup, with 2.4/2.3" tires on 21mm rims, at my usual tire pressures I had no issues whatsoever climbing up to the base of the tram and bombing back down in the middle of that snowstorm - as long as the moisture content of the snow is decent, anything short of a CX bike is going to handle that snow beautifully.

  121. #121
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    Nice to tough it out I just take my Commencal mini dh with 2.5
    out there. It does ok.
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  122. #122
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    I've resorted to riding a few fat bikes in my past due to being drunk.... Well, kinda drunk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash88 View Post
    Nice to tough it out I just take my Commencal mini dh with 2.5
    out there. It does ok.
    It's nice to have suspension to smoove out the rough parts,...

    and maybe for the occasional skinny.



    Otero conditions?-snowtero-1-.jpg

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    Nice on the snow and ice did you make the hole thing?
    Bandolero

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash88 View Post
    Nice on the snow and ice did you make the hole thing?
    Not even close! The traction was there, but I just couldn't hold the line.

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    What's good for the goose (turkey in this case), is good for a gander.

    Happy Holidays!

    Otero conditions?-turkey-1-.jpg

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    Anybody going up xmas morning?

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    Quote Originally Posted by warimono View Post
    Anybody going up xmas morning?
    If you are riding Otero, you had better get there early. It gets ugly after 11am. The snow is melting fast at the lower elevations. Up top, it's getting soft also.

    We were planning on riding up there tomorrow (Friday) starting at around 9am. I'm thinking even earlier than that after my ride yesterday, though.

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    Eeeesh. Yeah, there may have been a kitten or two killed. That last 1/4 mile down to the otero parking lot was ugly. I started at 10, but should have started at 8. It was a really warm day.

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    No problem with mud now, About 7-8 in of snow here near Raven Rd. Still snowing right now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52 View Post
    No problem with mud now, About 7-8 in of snow here near Raven Rd. Still snowing right now.

    Bah Humbug!

    Just 24 hours shy of a white X-Mas.

  132. #132
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    Well It don't look good now but we really need it and much more! :-)
    Bandolero

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash88 View Post
    Well It don't look good now but we really need it and much more! :-)
    Snow and sustained, below freezing temperatures so we aren't inhaling locusts and gnats this spring.

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    Still snowy and muddy? is it worth checking out this weekend?

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    Otero= no go. Not good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52 View Post
    Otero= no go. Not good.
    Thanks.

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    So I went out to Otero yesterday afternoon and was expecting some hikers or snowshoe's to have tamped down the new snow but not a sole had headed up tunnel. I got about 75 yards in the 8+ inches of powder and gave up.

    Maybe this weekend will have seen some traffic?

  138. #138
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    Where's all the fatbikers?
    Cool BandolArrow

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  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhazard View Post
    Where's all the fatbikers?
    in the foothills!
    "Mi amor Nuevo Miércoles!"

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  140. #140
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    I headed to south foothills for a few minutes after wimping out at otero and it was already bone dry. Ok, it was slightly damp in spots but perfectly good to go. I want to ride on some snow pack damnit.

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    Man, on my way home today I saw 3 motos coming off of Tunnel covered in mud. I hate to see what they did to the trails. These trails are no where near ready to ride with a bike, much less a heavy motorcycle.
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  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52 View Post
    Man, on my way home today I saw 3 motos coming off of Tunnel covered in mud. I hate to see what they did to the trails. These trails are no where near ready to ride with a bike, much less a heavy motorcycle.


    Dammit!!
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  143. #143
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    Any update on Otero conditions with all the warm temps lately? I'm guessing still too muddy but thought I'd ask.
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    Otero area still needs to dry out quite a bit. Cedro always drys out quicker. Havent been in there but it looks much closer to being dry enough.
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  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52 View Post
    Otero area still needs to dry out quite a bit. Cedro always drys out quicker. Havent been in there but it looks much closer to being dry enough.
    I spoke with Kerry about an hour ago. He said that Cedro still has lots of mud as well.
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  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52 View Post
    I spoke with Kerry about an hour ago. He said that Cedro still has lots of mud as well.
    Thanks a lot man! Your knowledge is always appreciated!
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  147. #147
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    any word on Otero?
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    Anyone know how the trail is looking this week?

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    Any mud or is it pretty dry

  150. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighSpeedChase View Post
    any word on Otero?
    I talked with someone that went in at Otero and up to 3-B today. Mostly good with a few pretty muddy spots. What mud there is can be deep. Still a little snow in shade and some hill sides. Depending on rain tomorrow, I'm going to ride out there Sat. By next weekend it should be all good.
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    Thanks for the info guys much appreciated

  152. #152
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    Getting that tingly feeling. We were riding Otero this time last year.

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    Just have to keep telling myself that this is a good thing. If they only close the trails for 4th of July weekend that would be fantastic.

  154. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by warimono View Post
    Just have to keep telling myself that this is a good thing. If they only close the trails for 4th of July weekend that would be fantastic.
    It's been a much better winter for snow this year. Last year was kind of sad up here. With some spring rains as predicted. Hopefully we'll get to ride all summer up here. Pretty windy today. That should help clear up some of the remaining mud
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  155. #155
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    Not sure Otero is quite ready. There are still a few mud patches and the trail is 100' wide in spots with mud ride arounds. Not to mention the places where there used to be turns. Somebody decided that Otero was to twisty for their taste so they cut most of the corners. WTF! If you can't ride the turns then stick to the bosque. It's so dumbed down its not even fun. There are plenty of new jumps for some reason. I don't get it...

  156. #156
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    No turns eh? Sounds like some wanton Stavafication going on.
    sweet sweet trails

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    I hiked Otero/Tio/West Ridge/Tunero yesterday with my dog. I didn't think it looked too bad. There are definitely a lot of new "cheater" lines around rock gardens and stuff, but there are some new features that look pretty sweet too. The more popular trails are going to evolve with more traffic, and that's just how it is. There are another 50 miles of trails that no one ever rides.

    I'll admit that I blocked off a few of the cheater lines out of frustration. Then I got home and thought about it more, and realized that the people who ride the cheater lines are gonna be pissed now, and might do something to our cool features. I won't do that again, and I apologize.

    A friend of mine made a good point: add what you want to the trails, but don't take away. I think that makes sense. If people want to add easier lines around rock gardens, let 'em. They're just doing themselves a disservice, and their skills will never improve. Meanwhile, (with the Forest Service's blessing, of course) we can build new stuff that challenges us and improves our skill.

  158. #158
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    There are substantial changes every day right now. Just got back from Otero- 3 Bottles ride. Otero was great. Only a couple of muddy areas left. Right at the junction of Tunnel and Otero, and a little higher up Otero.3 Bottles was much better than I expected. Pretty big snow drift still at sub rock. The rest of three bottles is gtg. I didn't do Tunnel but heard from another rider that said only a little wet area near the top of Tunnel where the sun never hits. Time to Hit That $h!t.
    Sent on my Droid while hitting that $h!t

  159. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmtim View Post
    Not sure Otero is quite ready. There are still a few mud patches and the trail is 100' wide in spots with mud ride arounds. Not to mention the places where there used to be turns. Somebody decided that Otero was to twisty for their taste so they cut most of the corners. WTF! If you can't ride the turns then stick to the bosque. It's so dumbed down its not even fun. There are plenty of new jumps for some reason. I don't get it...
    On the contrary, now is the perfect time for scads of people to hit the trail, if only to bed in and smooth the ruts created when people shouldn't have been riding. Conditions were great today, with only one real puddle (which I witnessed several people ride around)...

    While pedaling up, I was saddened to see that a nice jump had been "dumbed down" (sabotaged/destroyed) . If you cant jump things, why not just leave them be so more skilled riders can still enjoy them...

    To my surprise, by the time I made my back down someone had repaired it - very nice! Noticed a number of little jumps here and there on the down. Really added some fun on the way out..

    Totally agree about not dumbing things down!
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  160. #160
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    By the way, I would bet a majority of the widening was caused by hikers... I saw plenty of tire tracks going through the centers of trails, and not one footprint. Did see some horse tracks too...
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    Stravers..
    I too dont understand why people are tearing out stuff, especially "up" there.
    Although I did get a chuckle out of one particular one that was torn out over and over until the builder finally fixed it :roflopter:

  162. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhazard View Post
    By the way, I would bet a majority of the widening was caused by hikers... I saw plenty of tire tracks going through the centers of trails, and not one footprint. Did see some horse tracks too...
    I kinda doubt the hikers were cutting out trees when avoiding the mud.
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  163. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhazard View Post
    On the contrary, now is the perfect time for scads of people to hit the trail, if only to bed in and smooth the ruts created when people shouldn't have been riding. Conditions were great today, with only one real puddle (which I witnessed several people ride around)...

    While pedaling up, I was saddened to see that a nice jump had been "dumbed down" (sabotaged/destroyed) . If you cant jump things, why not just leave them be so more skilled riders can still enjoy them...

    To my surprise, by the time I made my back down someone had repaired it - very nice! Noticed a number of little jumps here and there on the down. Really added some fun on the way out..

    Totally agree about not dumbing things down!
    The problem is not that there are jumps. The problem is that we already have a delicate relationship with the Forest Service and building up features without the proper buy-in is not helping anyone. Maybe the 3B adoption didn't go as some people expected, the bigger picture is that the Forest Service worked with the users of the trails and helped build an official trail with technical features. For a first of it's kind trail build I think we got pretty lucky, and if we want to keep progressing our trail options we should respect that the land is managed by the Forest Service for EVERYONE. We can't go around cutting down trees, short-cutting corners and building jumps. That is self-serving and narrow minded, and regardless of how long it took the person to build said features that is not justification for destroying a prospering relationship with the FS.

    I am actually relieved to see that is has bothered so many trail users. Yes we all want more features, we want trails that challenge us. But it is nice to see that not everyone thinks we live in the Wild West and can take whatever we want. It is painfully obvious who is responsible for the work, and the irony is that he fashions himself as a trail advocate.
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    We must be thinking of two different areas. One managed by the FS, the other is not. I havent been up there yet this year..

  165. #165
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    Owl, we were speaking about Otero proper, not any offshoots or spurs... It is (or was?) obvious when you see it.

    Snarkyness aside... My point was really more about dumbing down things in general rather than building.

    But I agree, cutting of trees when they're not blocking an established line is going a bit too far. In the general sense of right and wrong, yeah, that step-down to step-up and some of the other thing were no-no's. Some of the Strava corner-cutting was happening last season, but I was really surprised to see how obvious it became in just a few days of riding (I'd actually like to see MORE turns...)

    There's a strange grey area that (some) local riders seem to operate under; doesn't make rogue building "right", but I see riders playing both sides of the fence (I'm not including or excluding myself!) when we should all be flying the same flag. I hope that this particular occurrence has not harmed any FS relations, maybe it will bring more riders together for the common cause, rather than cause division.

    Can't argue 3Bs, I don't know what specific expectations were not met, but it's a great start and can only hope its the beginning. Looking forward to working on the extension, the more people involved in that, the less wild-west type building we'll see.
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    Definitely some grey areas riding a bike in NM, and I am aware that I am also guilty of riding on both sides of the fence.

    Yes I want to ride challenging trails, and have features that scare me. And yes I enjoy riding those features both in the Foothills and in the Manzanos. But I think it is completely selfish to designate a well traveled trail as my own personal skills park and build whatever jump meets my desire, cut out any tree that interrupts my sweet 1ft kicker, and straight line that pesky turn that slows down my brap. All of this was accomplished by one self involved person with no desire to help anyone but themselves. The guy even excuses himself by saying "it was just an experiment."

    We are on the same page about not dumbing down trail options, and there is a lot of potential for features on our local trails. But insulting the FS and taunting them will not result in more features.
    "Mi amor Nuevo Miércoles!"

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    Kerry and crew were up there today with shovels. Looks like those features are going away.
    Kerry did talk a bit about the 3Bs extension and he will shoot an email out soon. yay!!
    Yea Jerry, quite obvious after getting up there. The mud at tunero connector is horrible!! other than that it packed in my bald tires up top

  168. #168
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    Not my intention to call any one person out, just a recognition of user groups... 😆

    Didn't hear the "experiment" line. Thats an interesting way to put it.
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  169. #169
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    Perhaps I'm more of a gray area rider/proponent than most... but I'll hold on to the rest of that opinion until I see you over a beer or whatever.

    Either way, we're probably mostly on the same page, except I tend to get caught in the moment from time to time, and to be honest - the trail "experiment" just happened to tickle me (hey I used to run around and paint on walls). That's all. Personally, I understand the implications, and hope this did't harm current opportunities.
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  170. #170
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    I'll bring the beer Jazzard
    "Mi amor Nuevo Miércoles!"

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    Wow, sorry to hear about this. I think most riders operate on both sides of the fence, but there are times when you have to think about the big picture and know where your bread is buttered. Adding real obvious features by cutting trees on a super popular trail is not a good idea. The new 3B stuff is great and more is coming thanks to working through the proper channels and being patient. Build features in the back 40 somewhere or do it in an established technical area (like we have at La Tierra). You guys are lucky to have Kerry and a FS district that is willing to work on tech stuff. I'm getting a relationship established in SF for tech trails, it takes a lot of time.

    On another note, just because corners are cut doesn't mean someone was doing it for a Strava time. People have always cut corners, especially when there is mud. Then it dies down when things dry out. I think placing branches on alternate lines is a great idea when there is no technical feature to avoid. Personally I think Strava is one of the best things to happen to MTB, for me, but cutting corners for a time is only cheating yourself. How does one feel good about that? Off my slippery Strava box.

    Great interview here discussing cheater lines:
    THE JARED GRAVES INTERVIEW - Mountain Biking Pictures - Vital MTB
    "babies don't drink coors" - del norte

  172. #172
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    Well put CC.

    The corners being cut (at least the ones I'm speaking of) were being cut in non-muddy conditions - at least last season. However, I only jest when calling out Strava peeeps, as I use it to. I just find the caricature amusing, no harm intended - and I love corners. Its where races are won (not that I'd personally know)

    That's a cool interview, btw...
    Cool BandolArrow

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  173. #173
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    Ask herbold about cutting lines. Blaming stuff on strava is so easy! Bad relations with hikers? Its pov'ers and stravers

  174. #174
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    Hopefully no more old growth vanilla pines will be cut down for someone's log ride, (ehhem cough, cough).

  175. #175
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    Wasn't 3 Bottles once a rogue trail? Then it became legitimate? Sometimes it takes people stepping outside the bounds of legality to further the development of trails technically speaking. I wonder if 3 Bottles had never been built originally would the legitimate building of technical trails ever of happened (in Otero)? Just a thought. I know I don't know all that has transpired down there between all you "locals".

  176. #176
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    I think the comparison is: building a new trail on uncharted waters/
    Compared to hiking pallets up to the foothills to make rollers.

    Off topic but Jerry that pic of yours overlooking Durango from like 2012 has been my background all winter.
    Awesome shot!
    Otero conditions?-jerry-hazzard-durango.jpg

  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSweetleaf View Post
    Wasn't 3 Bottles once a rogue trail? Then it became legitimate? ...
    Same with Tio Juanito. Total bootleg, and for several years it was, in its original form, the only "legal" way down off the Ridge into Otero before it was finally legitimized and modernized by the FS.

    The big picture is that the FS rightfully adheres to a conservative assessment as to what is, and isn't, a worthwhile addition to the trail system. On the other end of the spectrum, you've got the wild-west, bad-boy, in-yer-face approach that gets so far out of hand that it even alienates riders with common interests, or so I gather from this thread.

    Some people just can't get over themselves sufficiently to appreciate how sensitive the whole issue of Otero is, and how there is so much goodness out there that's not supposed to be available to us, but somehow is.

    You can always count on peer pressure to clarify the distinction between civil disobedience and juvenile delinquency, and if the mtb community functioned like the Mafia, I get the feeling a few would get stuffed into the trunk of car just for making life difficult for the rest.

  178. #178
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    prosperity
    Quote Originally Posted by andradab View Post
    Well now, I'm in quite a pickle here aren't I? Defending any of these accusations one only risks digging the hole deeper than it is. But, I digress...

    I will say this, and lucky are the few who actually get to read it, almost everyone in here is reacting in their own best interest. That is not a bad thing mind you, but there are a couple who are getting their jollies by retaliating. I suspect it has been a long time coming, and they are really getting their munies worth. Then there are a few who are quite entertained by the idea that the big rats have one of the smaller rats cornered, and are chumming the proverbial taste buds. To really solve this problem, a neutral observer only has to know who is who, and who is saying what, and for what ends. If it is a general concern for progress within the community, then I personally don't see how many of these comments are in any way a contribution. I suspect much has been exaggerated, and if one were to ride Otero tomorrow for the first time since last fall, they probably would not notice anything different. It's still one of the funnest rides around.

    Respect to the people who have entered (and are reading) this discussion with a genuine motivation to bring about a more cohesive community, I hope you will continue your efforts when there are opportunities to provide your support through trail development/maintenance, and/or continued efforts towards more access.

    For those of you who want to continue to pile on in the absence of your "enemy," keep on chasing your tails. You are Emperors without clothes.

    To rest of you, who I will assume to be unwitting victims of trail abuse and slanderous posts, the issue of the jump in question has been addressed. It's very likely that it never even existed, except for a few pictures obtainable through the Forest Service by way of a FOIA request. As for the tree referenced in palerider's post; that poor old growth vanilla pine had a much bigger adversary that me. And the other tree? I think that one grabbed one too many handlebars. It was on borrowed time, and you really shouldn't be trespassing anyway.

  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_owl View Post
    I think the comparison is: building a new trail on uncharted waters/
    Compared to hiking pallets up to the foothills to make rollers.

    Off topic but Jerry that pic of yours overlooking Durango from like 2012 has been my background all winter.
    Awesome shot!
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Thanks! Glad you enjoy, it's one of my faves from the time I lived there. Ironically, it was shot from the top of a bootleg trail (rumor is that Missy Giove and her contemporaries used to practice there back in the day) *edit - it was a foot hiking trail, at times frequented by downhillers.
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  180. #180
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    ya I know exactly where that shot is and talked to a few locals about a trail up there. Looks gnarly, I bet the Missle used to bomb it.

  181. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by andradab View Post
    I can't help it.

    I've got a soft spot for ratas and cockroaches. It's my cross to bear. My poor wife thinks it's disgusting.
    I dont even know what that means. Youre not married.
    I assume you are saying I snitched on you. Im ok with you thinking that

  182. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by andradab View Post
    Well now, I'm in quite a pickle here aren't I? Defending any of these accusations one only risks digging the hole deeper than it is. But, I digress...

    I will say this, and lucky are the few who actually get to read it, almost everyone in here is reacting in their own best interest. That is not a bad thing mind you, but there are a couple who are getting their jollies by retaliating. I suspect it has been a long time coming, and they are really getting their munies worth. Then there are a few who are quite entertained by the idea that the big rats have one of the smaller rats cornered, and are chumming the proverbial taste buds. To really solve this problem, a neutral observer only has to know who is who, and who is saying what, and for what ends. If it is a general concern for progress within the community, then I personally don't see how many of these comments are in any way a contribution. I suspect much has been exaggerated, and if one were to ride Otero tomorrow for the first time since last fall, they probably would not notice anything different. It's still one of the funnest rides around.

    Respect to the people who have entered (and are reading) this discussion with a genuine motivation to bring about a more cohesive community, I hope you will continue your efforts when there are opportunities to provide your support through trail development/maintenance, and/or continued efforts towards more access.

    For those of you who want to continue to pile on in the absence of your "enemy," keep on chasing your tails. You are Emperors without clothes.

    To rest of you, who I will assume to be unwitting victims of trail abuse and slanderous posts, the issue of the jump in question has been addressed. It's very likely that it never even existed, except for a few pictures obtainable through the Forest Service by way of a FOIA request. As for the tree referenced in palerider's post; that poor old growth vanilla pine had a much bigger adversary that me. And the other tree? I think that one grabbed one too many handlebars. It was on borrowed time, and you really shouldn't be trespassing anyway.
    In no way does your post even resemble the use of basic human logic, let alone an argument for your actions. I'm not jumping on any bandwagon here. As a matter of fact, I gave you multiple chances to prove that you are a worthwhile person to ride with, despite being forewarned by others. Yet, you continued to prove your worth by insulting my friends (in their absence) and bringing an air of negativity to any ride you were a part of. How you continue to find a handful of unassuming fellas to ride with is purely befuddling.

    You are a spiteful individual, that thrives on past hatred--refusing to let go of the past and how you've been ever-so wronged. Your word-play and semantics are only amusing to you and frustrating to others. You speak of a "cohesive community", yet with whom did you consult with when you decided to reroute trails and cut down trees in Otero? This is, of course, a rhetorical question. It does not require your response. This post does not require your response. I realize that we are all just giving in to your little game here. I have wasted hours of precious breath trying to find a common ground, but you are absolutely unwavering on your stance. We've just continued to fuel your fire with each response. This will be my last post regarding you and your antics.

    One last thing: your metaphor is slightly off. It is not the big rats (us) cornering the little rat (you). No, it is a b$#@* in heat parading its tail around, driving all the neighborhood dogs crazy (and enjoying the hell out of it)...and no one gets any rest until she's safely in the pound.

    Peace.

    More relevant to the thread, Otero is perfect now with only a few muddy spots (biggest being at the Tunnero and Otero intersect). The frost-heave is nicely packed down now, and the trails are fast again.

  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoLions View Post
    More relevant to the thread, Otero is perfect now with only a few muddy spots (biggest being at the Tunnero and Otero intersect). The frost-heave is nicely packed down now, and the trails are fast again.
    Thanks for the trail update.

    My $0.02 on additional trails.
    I just want to ride, so I have concern that illegal trails and features could put that in jeopardy. I think that is a legitimate concern.

    I also believe (don't know to be fact) that sometimes illegal trails become legal. That adds to my enjoyment, so I may or may not choose to ride those questionable trails, I surely don't post about them in public until they become official trails. I think this helps reduce the jeopardy I mentioned above.

    While I don't have the love of rock gardens as many posters on this site, I see them as a challenge, and sanitizing them sucks. Therefore, having a minor line around those sections is better than trying to clean them up. Also, secondary paths can sometimes provide opportunities to get around another rider going the opposite direction, and that's not a bad thing. My only concern at that point is if the work around is a sustainable trail, and is the original path still in tact.

    Finally a big thank you goes out to all who work trail days, or just fix things that need to be fixed.

  184. #184
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    Well. It looks like I missed the dry days of otero. Itsa rainin now. I had my chance yesterday but just couldn't muster a ride after 4 days in Moab. Rats. Or roaches. Whatever.
    A.K.A. The Blood Orange.

  185. #185
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    you still rocking that AM hardtail Pat?
    did you ever get to 100 pushups? I didnt

  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_owl View Post
    you still rocking that AM hardtail Pat?
    did you ever get to 100 pushups? I didnt
    1) YYyyyyuuuuUUUP! Still loving my HT although I didn't take it to moab this time. Outerbike supplied the bikes.
    2) Nnnoooooope! I maxed out at 77 consecutive. Those last few workouts are friggin TOUGH. I never could complete em.
    A.K.A. The Blood Orange.

  187. #187
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    Were you part of that NM caravan up there? I saw the email. how was it? did you ride a $8k bike you have to have?

  188. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_owl View Post
    Were you part of that NM caravan up there? I saw the email. how was it? did you ride a $8k bike you have to have?
    Outerbike is fun. This was our second trip. I didn't fall in love with anything I can't afford but I did ride a Polygon Colossus and was pretty impressed with it. $1700 frame only. I just go for the schwag and the shuttles. And the food.
    A.K.A. The Blood Orange.

  189. #189
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    Man Pat, Go ahead and rub in 4 days at Moab. I would. Were going there near the end of April.
    Sent on my Droid while hitting that $h!t

  190. #190
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    Pretty steady rain in the Otero area right now
    Sent on my Droid while hitting that $h!t

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garson View Post
    The big picture is that the FS rightfully adheres to a conservative assessment as to what is, and isn't, a worthwhile addition to the trail system. On the other end of the spectrum, you've got the wild-west, bad-boy, in-yer-face approach that gets so far out of hand that it even alienates riders with common interests, or so I gather from this thread.

    Some people just can't get over themselves sufficiently to appreciate how sensitive the whole issue of Otero is, and how there is so much goodness out there that's not supposed to be available to us, but somehow is.

    You can always count on peer pressure to clarify the distinction between civil disobedience and juvenile delinquency, and if the mtb community functioned like the Mafia, I get the feeling a few would get stuffed into the trunk of car just for making life difficult for the rest.
    WOW!!! I just had to show up and say how awesome this quote was!!! Way to go Garson!

    And what's with the Bando's beating up on Bry? Has there been a falling out with Papa? Man, I've missed all the winter episodes of "How the Trail Turns".

    Damn!!!
    Dug-Da-Goat

    Something changes at 12,000'
    ...so welcome to the Odyssey!

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  192. #192
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    And Now back to trail conditions.
    Not much in the way of drying out today. Kind of just staying wet and gloomy up here. Think I'll pass on Otero tomorrow
    Sent on my Droid while hitting that $h!t

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    Thanks for the timely updates, Steve.

  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1lluminaughty View Post
    How's tomorrow looking?
    There's probably some mud here and there. But it's looks pretty good. I'm going to give it a try. I saw quite a few cars at Tunnel PL today. Perhaps someone else has better info.
    Sent on my Droid while hitting that $h!t

  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52 View Post
    There's probably some mud here and there. But it's looks pretty good. I'm going to give it a try. I saw quite a few cars at Tunnel PL today. Perhaps someone else has better info.
    Yeah I rode there (Otero/Cedro) last weekend and it was a bit muddy but ridable. Can't be any worse then it was last Sunday right? There was the moisture we got up here in Santa Fe but that was mostly up on the mountain. Did you guys get that moisture down in Tijeras? Want to come ride there tomorrow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSweetleaf View Post
    Yeah I rode there (Otero/Cedro) last weekend and it was a bit muddy but ridable. Can't be any worse then it was last Sunday right? There was the moisture we got up here in Santa Fe but that was mostly up on the mountain. Did you guys get that moisture down in Tijeras? Want to come ride there tomorrow.
    Hard to say. We got 0.82" in Edgewood, and it stayed muddy here all day with fairly cool temps and some clouds. I expect a decent amount of mud is still out in Cedro/Otero.

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    In case anybody was wondering about the other side of the street, Cedro(Chami, delberts, coyote) was perfect. Hit dat shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by warimono View Post
    In case anybody was wondering about the other side of the street, Cedro(Chami, delberts, coyote) was perfect. Hit dat shit.
    Yep! Hero dirt every where. Otero, Three Bottles were all good as well.
    Sent on my Droid while hitting that $h!t

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    I miss douchenozzle 123...
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