Ti Fly 29er brake squeal update...- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Ti Fly 29er brake squeal update...

    Some know that many Ti Fly 29er owners report rear brake squeal in spite of multiple attempts at cleaning the rotor, sanding pads and adjusting the brakes per the service spec.
    Many bikes due to frame geometry and material promote this resonant frequency aka squeal.
    I did a ton of research on this issue because it is so common and I didn't want to overreact to it and make any radical changes or even change the brake caliper or holder. I love the bike as it is outstanding and honestly, this seems like the only issue I have had with mine. Btw I built mine up with Avid BB7 mech brakes, G2 Cleansweep rotors. I came to find out that the BB7 brakes come with semi metallic pads. Bikes that were bought complete with Avid hydro brakes are reported to squeal in back as well. The long and short of this issue is...run Avid organic pads in the rear. Yes organic pads don't last quite as long but they are dead quiet. I had got used to the squealing but now the bike is quiet as it should be. Another workaround for those that want to keep their metallic or sintered pads be it hydro or mech brakes is run Alligator Windcutter rotors. These are said to change the resonant frequency and eliminate squeal and will work with metallic pads. They are reported to be a bit tough on organic pads however as they have less surface area.
    Anyway, if anybody with this great bike is toiling with this issue, that is how I resolved it.
    Cheers.

  2. #2
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    Thanks! Good info...

  3. #3
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    I called Avid and they said the pads can be the problem, and that there was a production run of the rotors that had "varied thickness" which could be a cause of the vibration and noise. I emailed BikesDirect, and they are getting the pads/rotors from Avid and shipping them to me. Should be here next week.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBrewing
    I called Avid and they said the pads can be the problem, and that there was a production run of the rotors that had "varied thickness" which could be a cause of the vibration and noise. I emailed BikesDirect, and they are getting the pads/rotors from Avid and shipping them to me. Should be here next week.
    It can be debated whether Avid components are at fault. Suffice to say that Avid metallic pads and G2 Cleansweep rotors don't play nice with the resonant frequency of the rear triangle of a Ti Fly 29er. As mentioned this is very common with many 29ers and Avid's squeal on a lot of bikes. Avid ships a lot of "kits" comprised of organic pads + solid rotors for resolution of this issue...or their latest rotor de jour. Have a look at the link below if you are a gearhead and want an interesting read. A lot of Specialized 29er owners are up in arms about paying $3K for a bike and then having the rear brake howl. The reason that I say it is an interaction and not blame ascribed to Avid per se is because in the front metallic pads and G2 rotors are quiet on many 29ers...different vibration frequency. Longer chain stays likely aggravates the issue with 29ers in back.
    The reason I posted this is to let those that own these bikes know that a...this is a common issue across brands and b, there is a low cost fix....and free if you pursue it through BD or Avid and LBS.

    Specialized Brake Squeal that applies to our bikes as well with one distinct difference. The Specialized issue is even more insidious...a pretty hefty vibration coupled with a squeal...likely due to rear suspension pvot play:
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...ght=bb7+squeal

  5. #5
    Rollin 29s
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    I fixed my squeal/ turkey gobble/ vibration issue (front and rear) on my Fly Ti 29er by replacing the Avid rotors with Alligator Serration rotors. This after spending lots of time and money on different pads, sanding, cleaning, pad chamfering, Avid cleansweep rotor hole beveling, caliper centering, multiple bleeding sessions, more rotor and pad sanding and pad modifications.

    I have not come across anyone who this has NOT worked for. I would not waste any more time or money a second time trying to figure this out. Just buy the Alligator rotors and be sure to use metallic pads. Organic pads with Alligator rotors got chewed up and caused heavy pulsation when braking.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65
    I fixed my squeal/ turkey gobble/ vibration issue (front and rear) on my Fly Ti 29er by replacing the Avid rotors with Alligator Serration rotors. This after spending lots of time and money on different pads, sanding, cleaning, pad chamfering, Avid cleansweep rotor hole beveling, caliper centering, multiple bleeding sessions, more rotor and pad sanding and pad modifications.

    I have not come across anyone who this has NOT worked for. I would not waste any more time or money a second time trying to figure this out. Just buy the Alligator rotors and be sure to use metallic pads. Organic pads with Alligator rotors got chewed up and caused heavy pulsation when braking.
    To be clear...Isle, are you saying that you tried organic pads with the Cleansweep rotors that came on your Ti Fly and they still squealed? Not the case with me.
    For the record for me:
    Front: no squeal with Reba Race Fork + G2 cleansweep + metallic pads.

    Rear: Squeal with G2 cleansweep + metallic pads. No amount of adjustment, pad sanding or rotor cleaning would resolve this. Switch to organic pads in back: Quiet

    So it was simple resolution for me. Front never squealed and rear organic pads fixed my annoying squeal...kept the same rotors.

    That said, I understand the Windcutter rotors are the ticket for running metallic pads. In fact, I have one in waiting which I likely will switch out. It also makes sense that the Windcutter rotors will tear up organic pads because they are so serrated. What you have done maybe the best solution overall...but if others just have a rear squeal issue, organic pads with Cleansweep rotors works well and should last pretty well given a smoother rotor surface.. in my case with Avid BB.7 mechanical brakes.

    Its a different bike with it now so quiet.
    Cheers.
    Last edited by dirtrider7; 08-26-2010 at 01:42 PM.

  7. #7
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    Yes, mine with cleansweep rotors squealed/ gobbled with organic and metallic pads alike, both front and rear. The squealing started any time the rotors got cold or wet and remained even after they dried out and warmed up. Removing, sanding and cleaning the pads and rotors with IPA would solve the problem until the next time I rode in cold or wet conditions.

    I did try the organic pads with windcutter rotors for one ride and I could feel the pads pushing into the large openings in the rotors as they went around, giving a strong pulsing effect while braking. It felt like the pads were going to sheer off of the backing plates, so I removed them in exchange for metallic pads after that ride and have not had as much as a squeak since.

    I credit Windcutter rotors with saving my Avid brakes from going on Craigslist. I was going to pull the trigger on Shimano XT hydraulics a few days from when I read a forum where someone mentioned the Alligator rotors solving their Avid squeal problems. It took hard consideration thinking about spending even more money trying to solve the squeal problem, but I had tried every 'fix' from every forum and giving up without taking it to the final frontier seemed short sighted. That last $35 was the best money I spent.
    Whoever invented the bicycle deserves the thanks of humanity.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65
    Yes, mine with cleansweep rotors squealed/ gobbled with organic and metallic pads alike, both front and rear. The squealing started any time the rotors got cold or wet and remained even after they dried out and warmed up. Removing, sanding and cleaning the pads and rotors with IPA would solve the problem until the next time I rode in cold or wet conditions.

    I did try the organic pads with windcutter rotors for one ride and I could feel the pads pushing into the large openings in the rotors as they went around, giving a strong pulsing effect while braking. It felt like the pads were going to sheer off of the backing plates, so I removed them in exchange for metallic pads after that ride and have not had as much as a squeak since.

    I credit Windcutter rotors with saving my Avid brakes from going on Craigslist. I was going to pull the trigger on Shimano XT hydraulics a few days from when I read a forum where someone mentioned the Alligator rotors solving their Avid squeal problems. It took hard consideration thinking about spending even more money trying to solve the squeal problem, but I had tried every 'fix' from every forum and giving up without taking it to the final frontier seemed short sighted. That last $35 was the best money I spent.
    Thanks for your thorough explanation. Quite possbile the Avid hydro brakes that come on assembled Ti Fly's are even more problematic to squealing. Lots of complaints about Avid hydros for squealing independent of bicycle mfr it seems. I will likely run Windcutter rotors front and back with metalic pads as you suggest eventually...likely the best solution as organic pad wear even with G2 Cleansweep rotors probably isn't as good as metallic pads with less surface area of Windcutters. It makes sense as you write that Windcutters would shear and shred organic pads quickly. BTW, I didn't have the dreaded gobble noise...only a squeal and only in back as mentioned which seems to be the most common resonance. Meanwhile, I will wear down my organic pads in back with Cleansweeps. I don't ride much in cold or wet conditions yet but with the winter coming this will be a more common occurrence and its nice to ride a quiet bike.
    Thanks again.

  9. #9
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    Free sample offer of Squeal Out Disc Brake Treatment. For a limited time only. This is not SPAM ! this is a free offer to help any of you that would like to try Squeal Out. Send me your address and I will send you a sample that will do both your brakes. Happy Turkey Day to all !
    LOL and here is to getting the Turkey's out of your brakes .
    Got disc brake squeal !
    http://www.squealout.com

  10. #10
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    I don't get the squeal but do feel a slight vibration from when I first squeeze the rear brake; the front is fine. Once more pressure is applied there are no vibrations; only felt on the initial press. I am using Magura Louise disc brakes with stock rotors and pads. I wonder if the rotor is also the culprit but I have the same setup on two other bikes without this issue.

  11. #11
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    I currently run a 185mm Cleansweeep G2/BB7 in the front and a 185 Roundagon/BB5 in the rear and have had the same problems as described above. It looks like the Alligator Wind-Cutters come in a 180mm diameter. Is the size difference a problem?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by intotheblue
    I currently run a 185mm Cleansweeep G2/BB7 in the front and a 185 Roundagon/BB5 in the rear and have had the same problems as described above. It looks like the Alligator Wind-Cutters come in a 180mm diameter. Is the size difference a problem?
    Nope, the pads run true to the braking surface on the Alligators with the stock Avid set-up that the bike comes with. The Alligators have so much less metal that there is always more brake pad exposed at any time than on the Cleansweeps, but braking power is as good or better, and I'm sure this has something to do with why they are quiet.
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  13. #13
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    I also get warbling with metallic and organic pads on my Fantom with Elixr CR's. Doesn't affect brake performance, but it is annoying and seems to be common to cleanweep rotors. Alligator rotors are on my short shopping list right now.
    Everything in moderation. Including moderation.

  14. #14
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    I can tell you that Formula RX's do not squeal even with G3 rotors.

  15. #15
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    This type of squealing is common on cars, and it is solved by applying a rubber compound on the back side of the pads to curb resonance. Has anyone tried this on bike pads?

    If the compound is allowed to dry before the pad is installed I cant see it causing a problem.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squatcho
    This type of squealing is common on cars, and it is solved by applying a rubber compound on the back side of the pads to curb resonance. Has anyone tried this on bike pads?

    If the compound is allowed to dry before the pad is installed I cant see it causing a problem.
    I tried this with the blue NAPA anti-squeal compound. It didn't work.

    When I removed the pads after a few rides, the piston had pushed through the compound and was directly contacting the pad backing plate. Maybe this is normal, but in any case the squeal continued.

    The best anti-squeal product I ever used for a car was an adhesive backed heavy-duty aluminum foil-looking product. It isolated the piston from backing plate and had a gummy material in-between the foil layers. I've never seen that product since.
    Whoever invented the bicycle deserves the thanks of humanity.
    - Lord Charles Beresford

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