Motobecane Owners: Are You Taunted by Fellow Mountain Bikers?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Motobecane Owners: Are You Taunted by Fellow Mountain Bikers?

    It seems like motobecane/bikesdirect bikes are treated like pariahs of the industry in a way that other direct to consumer brands are not.

    There are so many posters who lambast the company and brand. I have yet to see any of the more outlandish claims substantiated in any way shape or form.

    On the other hand, owners of these bikes rarely if ever post review videos or speak up in defense of their bikes and brand. Reviews from the mtb press or from well known youtube channels are non-existent.

    I've run into industry employees who taunted me because I own and ride a Gary Fisher hardtail so it's not inconceivable.

    Motobecane owners, do you run into this: snooty riders at group rides or individuals you encounter while on rides? I could see it happening, actually. Not sure if it does though.

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    If it wasn't for Bikes Direct bikes for snobs to be snooty about they would pick something else. I've heard BD bikes called bike shaped objects, even though that would put them in the far away territory of department store bikes.

    Mountain bikes more and more are very specific to the application. BD sells many that are very well suited to the application, if the application is properly matched to the bike. The snobs and snooty types, they will claim they know something you don't. It is the geometry, the parts spec, the country of origin, even the label on the thing or some other complaint. If you think those types are experts that really know something then I guess they are worth listening too. If not, get a bike that works good for the application. The naysayers are really hard to hear if you are riding anyway.

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    I have a 2015 Motobecane Fantom 29 Pro SL that I ride in group rides and never - ever has anyone said something snooty about my bike. Most people that talk about it say something like "Gee - that has some nice components - did it come that way?" It did.

    Honestly - I don't think many folks that I run into know about BD.

    Eric

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    I would hope that adults would be mature enough to recognize a bicycle is just a bicycle and that we don't identify emotionally with our purchases, they're just for fun and recreation.

    I don't get that sense on this forum however, which is why I ask. Every time I've mentioned motobecane or bikesdirect, there's a torrent of hate and name calling.

    I've got multiple weirdos following me around the forums trolling me simply because I mention motobecane or bikes direct. I don't want these loonies losing it on a group ride.

  5. #5
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    I started BMX riding when I was a kid. My brother taught me to ride a dirt bike when I was 10 and I got my first Yamaha 80 that year. I raced motocross through high school. I got my first road bike at 18 and then graduated to a Gixer 750 crotchrocket. I began MTBing in the late 80's. I have seen much come and go in the 2 world realm. One constant in all genres is people are quick to jump on the trendy bandwagon. A select few people will always look at products with a cynical eye for discerning what's a legitimate product and what's the flavor of the week. I feel the people who bash Motobecane are simply jumping on the uneducated bandwagon. All bikes share the same basic component manufacturers. Almost all bike frames come from Asia, many from the same factories. I feel that Motobecane strikes a point between boutique brands and big box brands.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by westernmtb View Post
    I would hope that adults would be mature enough to recognize a bicycle is just a bicycle and that we don't identify emotionally with our purchases, they're just for fun and recreation.
    Well now, that's an interesting comment. You see, I most certainly do identify emotionally with my bikes. And doing so doesn't mean I can't have fun with them and recreate with them. I can appreciate them emotionally and still utilize them as the amazing recreational machines they are. But a good bike -- a really good bike-- is damn near loveable.

    I've got nothing against Bikes Direct or Motobecane or Cannondale or DiamondBack or Santa Cruz or Yeti or any other brand. To a point. I certainly respect some brands more than others. Whatever the product -- bikes, apparel, furniture, guns, electronics, lawnmowers, any product -- can be built with quality or it can be built as cheaply as possible. I don't find the latter type of products loveable. Not in the least. In fact, usually when I try to go the cheap route, I end up getting frustrated because the product doesn't work right or it breaks or it wears out quicker than I want.

    Decades ago I heard something that's stuck with me, here it is: "Quality is the only true economy."

    Are Motobecanes quality bikes? I don't know, I don't own one. Quality is in the eye of the beholder, it's for each of us to decide. Does BD unload crap on an unsuspecting public? I don't know, I've never bought a bike from BD. But if they do, then that's the reputation they're creating for themselves. If they don't, then they're being maligned.

    Buy whatever bike you want. Ride it a lot. Love it or don't -- up to you. Meanwhile personally I've found that I'm a happier person whenever I don't care so much about what others think of what I buy or what I do.

    Time to ride,
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by westernmtb View Post
    I would hope that adults would be mature enough to recognize a bicycle is just a bicycle and that we don't identify emotionally with our purchases, they're just for fun and recreation.

    I don't get that sense on this forum however, which is why I ask. Every time I've mentioned motobecane or bikesdirect, there's a torrent of hate and name calling.

    I've got multiple weirdos following me around the forums trolling me simply because I mention motobecane or bikes direct. I don't want these loonies losing it on a group ride.
    Can you link the threads where this happened?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    Can you link the threads where this happened?

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    That happens all over the mtbr forums (and elsewhere)--especially when someone is asking for advice about whether to buy a motobecane.

    I don't own a Motobecane (yet), although I do own a Windsor from bikesdirect. I'm really interested in Motobecane bikes, and have been actively searching for a good deal on a used one. If I needed a new bike, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Motobecane if it met all my needs.

    I think the reason Motobecane/Bikes Direct gets so much hate (online) stems from a few factors. First--people who have been riding for years are (by necessity) coming from a paradigm where their LBS was their only link to the sport. They're extremely biased towards local brick & mortar bikes. But the entire global economy has shifted away from that paradigm and moved towards online purchases. Next, Bikes Direct does themselves no favors with their 2003-era website, coupled with some of their over-the-top marketing claims (e.g. crazy MSRP claims, constant boasting about the value of their tubeless-ready wheels). It's just cheesy and looks relatively low-class IMHO. Finally, Motobecane/Bikes Direct isn't an innovator in any way. They're basically selling Kinesis engineered reference designs. The geometry sometimes lags behind current trends and dudes who are buying new high-end bikes each year scoff at this.

    Bikes Direct could do lots to improve their standing with bike snobs, but I honestly don't think they care. They seem to be selling plenty of bikes as-is, and I'm not sure what the benefit to their pocketbook would be if they made any attempts. Personally, I think they should overhaul their website, maybe do some YouTube sponsorships (like Diamondback has with Seth's Bike Hacks), and generally just preach the gospel of Motobecane as a high-end bike at a killer price. But again--it doesn't appear that not doing this is affecting their sales.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forbin View Post
    That happens all over the mtbr forums (and elsewhere)--especially when someone is asking for advice about whether to buy a motobecane.

    I don't own a Motobecane (yet), although I do own a Windsor from bikesdirect. I'm really interested in Motobecane bikes, and have been actively searching for a good deal on a used one. If I needed a new bike, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Motobecane if it met all my needs.

    I think the reason Motobecane/Bikes Direct gets so much hate (online) stems from a few factors. First--people who have been riding for years are (by necessity) coming from a paradigm where their LBS was their only link to the sport. They're extremely biased towards local brick & mortar bikes. But the entire global economy has shifted away from that paradigm and moved towards online purchases. Next, Bikes Direct does themselves no favors with their 2003-era website, coupled with some of their over-the-top marketing claims (e.g. crazy MSRP claims, constant boasting about the value of their tubeless-ready wheels). It's just cheesy and looks relatively low-class IMHO. Finally, Motobecane/Bikes Direct isn't an innovator in any way. They're basically selling Kinesis engineered reference designs. The geometry sometimes lags behind current trends and dudes who are buying new high-end bikes each year scoff at this.

    Bikes Direct could do lots to improve their standing with bike snobs, but I honestly don't think they care. They seem to be selling plenty of bikes as-is, and I'm not sure what the benefit to their pocketbook would be if they made any attempts. Personally, I think they should overhaul their website, maybe do some YouTube sponsorships (like Diamondback has with Seth's Bike Hacks), and generally just preach the gospel of Motobecane as a high-end bike at a killer price. But again--it doesn't appear that not doing this is affecting their sales.
    Did you read my post? Is this just a very long 'no'?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    Did you read my post? Is this just a very long 'no'?
    Yeah, I did, but the hate directed at Bikes Direct is so ubiquitous on the internet that I figured you were joking that you wanted examples.

    Since you do, here's one from the mtbr forums.
    Bikes Direct = social darwinism for the twentyteens.

    Betting Joebikesdirect will have this thread closed and removed in under 15 minutes.

    All you have to do is google for info on a Bikes Direct bike, and you're almost certainly going to come across anti-Bikes Direct screeds in virtually every online forum.

  11. #11
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    If Motobecane got geo "right", they could be a respectable name brand, considering some of their highest priced stuff is made in the same "factory" as Transition, Mondraker, Niner, Haibike, KHS, Vitus, etc. (Astro engineering). They instead seemingly go for the bottom dollar open designs, and from factories like Kinesis that further reduce frame cost, in order to hang their fancy spec on, to pass on the OE price savings. Their marketing and site is quite dated too...

    Hard to tell the difference between someone getting brand X for better geo and compromising on spec, and someone getting Motobecane for better spec and compromising on geo. If they paid the same price, I question if you can really call the former a snob if they challenge the latter to see who got the better deal in the end. I personally lean on the geo > spec side of the argument.

    I admit to being a snob when seeing anyone on something super cheap, in the sub-600 MSRP range, and making an attempt to tag along. I blame my competitive nature. The comparisons just have to be made... I can name 2-3 parts on my bike that cost me about that much alone (fork, frame w/o shock, and maybe rear wheel w/insert+tire+cassette+rotor). I give credit to these parts for contributing hugely to confidence levels, and I'd feel a hard-to-control urge to demonstrate the difference. If it were a Motobecane rider, who got something as pricey, I'd just warn them to be careful of drops and jumps that I'd likely be hitting, and hope they don't go OTB... xD

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    The most recent post on that was from the end of 2015. I don't see much hate around here anymore. I think most people are pretty over the whole discussion. What is worth saying has been said... hundreds? thousands? of times. This thread sounds like some guy imagined people were hating on him and decided to complain on the internet. Then people jump on board because they want to feel like they're in some kind of club.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forbin View Post
    Yeah, I did, but the hate directed at Bikes Direct is so ubiquitous on the internet that I figured you were joking that you wanted examples.

    Since you do, here's one from the mtbr forums.



    All you have to do is google for info on a Bikes Direct bike, and you're almost certainly going to come across anti-Bikes Direct screeds in virtually every online forum.
    Sounds like a lot of pissed off old riders sporting $6k Ibis or the like getting passed by some young, cost conscious rider on a Moto


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    Quote Originally Posted by Semmtexx View Post
    Sounds like a lot of pissed off old riders sporting $6k Ibis or the like getting passed by some young, cost conscious rider on a Moto


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    Or like post #11 who initially says a $600 bike is garbage and can't keep up and ends with "If it were a Motobecane rider, who got something as pricey, I'd just warn them to be careful of drops and jumps that I'd likely be hitting, and hope they don't go OTB"

    I mean I just recently bought the most expensive Moto they sell and if I do a comparison shop to get the same thing off the BD site, it's pretty much double if not almost triple. But now I have to "careful of drops" and going OTB since the bike is not in that low price category any more. People just need to make excuses up to feel better about the $$$ they overspent on a downtube sticker.

    Same thing happens with the lowly GM ZR1 walking all over $300k+ exotics. The German/Italian owners just say "Yeah but my prestige and better technology".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfacecreations View Post
    Or like post #11 who initially says a $600 bike is garbage and can't keep up and ends with "If it were a Motobecane rider, who got something as pricey, I'd just warn them to be careful of drops and jumps that I'd likely be hitting, and hope they don't go OTB"

    I mean I just recently bought the most expensive Moto they sell and if I do a comparison shop to get the same thing off the BD site, it's pretty much double if not almost triple. But now I have to "careful of drops" and going OTB since the bike is not in that low price category any more. People just need to make excuses up to feel better about the $$$ they overspent on a downtube sticker.

    Same thing happens with the lowly GM ZR1 walking all over $300k+ exotics. The German/Italian owners just say "Yeah but my prestige and better technology".
    Iím right there with you. MTB is becoming very elitist at least in my area and by and large I see a lot of these big groups of people kitted out with the absolute most expensive bikes and full gear load out and it just seems like a fad to me. (Not to say there arenít serious riders out there). Any hate for any kind of bike anyone is riding really says something about the hate spewer. I started on an old beat up single speed rigid. Some people used to compliment with respect, others looked down with contempt.


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    People who think they are being looked down-upon for owning a BD bike are voluntary martyrs over nothing. No one cares what you ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    People who think they are being looked down-upon for owning a BD bike are voluntary martyrs over nothing. No one cares what you ride.
    Sorry, but weíre talking about words that people have typed on forums or have said verbally. If youíve never done either, my reply isnít addressing you.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Semmtexx View Post
    Iím right there with you. MTB is becoming very elitist at least in my area and by and large I see a lot of these big groups of people kitted out with the absolute most expensive bikes and full gear load out and it just seems like a fad to me. (Not to say there arenít serious riders out there). Any hate for any kind of bike anyone is riding really says something about the hate spewer. I started on an old beat up single speed rigid. Some people used to compliment with respect, others looked down with contempt.
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    Last edited by metalskool; 1 Week Ago at 06:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    People who think they are being looked down-upon for owning a BD bike are voluntary martyrs over nothing. No one cares what you ride.
    Go ahead and search through this subforum for a couple minutes. Eye opening to say the least if you're uninformed at the heat these bikes take. I made a thread right before I bought my last Moto and it all went sideways from the start with people attacking the idea of purchasing a Moto. Oddly enough and very pertinent to all this, somebody who doesn't even own a Moto just came out of their way to come in here and negative rep me and ghost off back into the rest of the forums safe from any Moto owners.

    Check it out:
    https://forums.mtbr.com/26-27-5-29-p...e-1118821.html

    Nobody is voluntarily martyring anything. People seek BD owners and attack like it's money their losing out of their own wallet. I imagine in some cases it does which is why some people seem so rabid on keeping sales away from BD. No question, best bikes for the $ but others are following their business model and doing the online thing so that probably will get a little of the hate off of BD as everybody adapts.

  20. #20
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    Post #11 is quite objective. It pointed out that expensive Motobecanes are made in the same factory as brands like Transition, but makes an opinion that geo is more desirable than the enhanced spec. It explains how they act out the snobbiness, giving me the impression that they'd attempt to drop someone on a sub-$600 bike, and would ride with someone on an expensive Motobecane, but would warn them if they're going "full send".

    I warn all riders before I go full send, if they plan on following me, even if I know they're skilled and on a superbike. I do it more cause I don't want to be liable for any penalty for failure regarding trail features. I also doubt the trail-worthiness of sub-$600 bikes. I wouldn't call it snobby. In terms of taunting and looking down on fellow mountain bikers, this seems normal and fully expected, considering the sport's male-dominance and competitiveness.

    You guys added the words "garbage" and reworded some of their lines, seemingly misinterpreting it to sort of prove your point. If I were to rearrange the words, I'd get the impression that Motobecanes don't have "full send" level of confidence. I wouldn't disagree with that, having ridden something that does have such confidence (despite only 5.5" of susp travel).

    From the posts I've read here, I believe the BD owners are giving themselves a bad name. I say this as a Motobecane owner myself, having bought their 2k Ti HT and $3.5k FS ebike and putting over 6k miles on each. I fully admit that I bought them due to price for spec level, and accepted some compromise on geo. I see more of a problem with you two, than the bikes themselves. The bikes have their flaws and much can be said of BD's business model, but I think you guys give things for people to target. Reading more carefully, you do say some BD owners themselves are being targeted...

    I have it potentially the worst being on a Moto from BD, and riding an emtb on trails with normal mtb riders. I don't really feel a need for safe space, nor feel that I've been sought out to be made into some victim. If I'm an exception, what's different between me and you guys? Perhaps it's a matter of character? You guys seem to have some complex...

    OT: I am curious about your name, "surfacecreations". What do you create?
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    OT: I am curious about your name, "surfacecreations". What do you create?
    Surfaces for different creations. Last big project was a rotating table that holds ceramic monkeys in a S&M super store.

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    Hmm, I notice a lot of critic bashing from moto/BD supporters in that thread. Like an echo chamber there.

    That banned UltraMTB1 guy switches his tune too, from saying there's no objective criticisms despite some posted earlier, to pointing out all the shady sales tactics like fake MSRP and discounts. His revelations on how BD operates highlights some things I couldn't put words to, regarding what I was seemingly turned off by.

    Thanks for sharing that. I'm more convinced that the reputations have been earned for good reason.

    Surfacecreations, so you've had 5+ months of ownership with that $3.5k carbon Motobecane SRAM AXS bike plus more on an alu Moto HT? Got any updates posted that I can find on that? I posted my Moto emtb experiences here, though I admit I misrepresented the number of crashes I had on it (I just listed OTBs specifically, not other crashes/falls): https://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/moto...p-1058744.html
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Hmm, I notice a lot of critic bashing from moto/BD supporters in that thread. Like an echo chamber there.

    That banned UltraMTB1 guy switches his tune too, from saying there's no objective criticisms despite some posted earlier, to pointing out all the shady sales tactics like fake MSRP and discounts. His revelations on how BD operates highlights some things I couldn't put words to, regarding what I was seemingly turned off by.

    Thanks for sharing that. I'm more convinced that the reputations have been earned for good reason.
    What's your end game here? Are you in here out of boredom or you really just out to stain BD/Motos for financial gain? I mean I'll post up pics of both Moto bikes I own. This one just purchased and the other in about 2011. You willing to post up pics to prove you actually own the bikes you say you do?
    I know there may be some shills peddling BD bikes in here but there is greater chance that companies that are threatened by BD are at it also doing what they can to keep people away from BD/Moto. When people take it too far, you begin to wonder what their intentions are.

    I don't post updates because I am not in the industry(with nothing to gain) or willing to kill time telling people about my life and bikes. I came in here 9 years ago and got what I needed to buy something and when the time came that I was getting outbiked with my fellow riders, I broke down and bought a 29" bike. I pop in here and there and more now since I was helping with some others questions on the bike but I will probably slowly fade away until it's time to purchase again. And that may be soon since my sons Diamondback 29" HT has gotten the snot beat out of it and I'll either make it a birthday present or since he's making good money now, let him buy it on his own. After doing heavy research on buying mine I know what BD has to offer and now know there are similar bikes out there for close to the same $ since they are realizing the internet sales are the future.

    The main reason even that I'm playing along is we are all kind of stuck at home so my reason for being in this thread is out of boredom.

    The old 26" alum HT is still fine and well. I really didn't take it out and bang it up as much as this new bike is getting. It was more of a once a month thing to mtb parks and several times a week short and fast night rides to get the heart pumping.

    The new bike is a monster as most any 29" full sus. bike is now. Several parts were swapped out to personalize it and other than the short 100mm dropper post(should have came with 150mm) it was all really good to go. The geometry is fine contrary to anybody poiting out the old geometry of some BD bikes and actually better than what BD has it at(at least for that new bike), which was pointed out in one of my recent posts. But to be honest, anybody thinking they can feel 5mm or 10mm differences on a bike are full of crap. Just buy what you can afford and have fun.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Hmm, I notice a lot of critic bashing from moto/BD supporters in that thread. Like an echo chamber there.

    That banned UltraMTB1 guy switches his tune too, from saying there's no objective criticisms despite some posted earlier, to pointing out all the shady sales tactics like fake MSRP and discounts. His revelations on how BD operates highlights some things I couldn't put words to, regarding what I was seemingly turned off by.

    Thanks for sharing that. I'm more convinced that the reputations have been earned for good reason.

    Surfacecreations, so you've had 5+ months of ownership with that $3.5k carbon Motobecane SRAM AXS bike plus more on an alu Moto HT? Got any updates posted that I can find on that? I posted my Moto emtb experiences here, though I admit I misrepresented the number of crashes I had on it (I just listed OTBs specifically, not other crashes/falls): https://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/moto...p-1058744.html

    Oddly, I feel like I have
    The Motobecane/BD online hate used to be much worse years ago, but it has gotten slightly less pronounced. The way the bike industry has evolved over the past 10 years is probably a big part of this. The rise of "respectable" direct-to-consumer bikes has defanged a lot of the criticism levelled against BD's mail-order model. Also, I think that younger (i.e. under 30) riders are far less biased having grown up in the sport where sourcing parts off Amazon and buying direct-to-consumer bikes was accepted. Older riders still often give me shit about using REI for mechanical work because they worship at the LBS. Apparently supporting a co-op that pays employees well and gives them healthcare is as heretical as riding a Moto.

    All of that said, I own a number of bikes (and only 1 Moto purchased for my GF). I agree that their website earns them legitimate criticism from more experienced riders. Still, there aren't any outright "lies" on the BD site, but the marketing is cheezy, and unless you REALLY know specs and pay close attention to their descriptions, you might end up with a $1000 bike with 9mm skewers for axles. But again, I can't fault BD for being dishonest, because they're not. And their prices are really solid for what you get. Still, it seems to me that riders who are vocally prejudiced and go out of their way online (or God forbid in real-life) to badmouth someone else's bike are just pricks. I've got a close friend who still rides a Gary Fisher 26'er with coil forks--I just offer to help him fix his bike and tell him I'd be glad to help him when he's ready to buy a new ride.

  25. #25
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    Yea, they're in that link I shared pointing to a different Motobecane forum thread, for my bike model in particular. Ti bike in my first post there, and my other posts there are regarding my emtb purchase and ownership experience.

    Just sharing my perspective, to show the difference between it and yours, considering we're both owners. Giving a bad name to social justice with this farce, IMO.

    Was gonna say something about my opinions on geo being driven by being relatively fined tuned to the point that I can notice 5-10mm of difference, but I see you edited your opinion on that too. Chainstay difference, crank length difference, BB height difference, saddle height difference, bar height, fork angleset, fork travel, and more are all noticeable in 5-10mm increments to me. I doubt that's odd, but claiming that I feel 5mm and under would be odd, which I am willing to prove, but not too willing to promote as that important.
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

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    Just looked at your link there and see that you actually are a Moto owner so I apologize thinking you were just out for heads in here.
    I've only ever seen one out once before in the wild and it was a family that had I think at least 6 bikes all piled up in their truck, all Motos. They said they bought them due to the value for what they got and they had no issues to speak of.
    I think some people are just too involved with small details and things like a 420 vs 440 length chainstay don't affect them that much. It is for sure true that the BD website and everything on it is dated and really is kind of insulting to peoples intelligence.

    "Order now for your best deal. Prices may rise when sales goals are met."
    "Price Will Go Up Soon and will sell out."

    Come on BD, you are better than that.

  27. #27
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    Typical customer service:

    Motobecane Owners: Are You Taunted by Fellow Mountain Bikers?-mjqlo8v.png

    Motobecane Owners: Are You Taunted by Fellow Mountain Bikers?-e5vynfp.png

    Impression: self-service and lots of waiting.
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

  28. #28
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    I'm sure one of those "LBS worshippers" will point out how direct-to-consumer customers are directed to rely on LBS, where they might not be getting paid for the warranty processing service. They should add at least an hour of general labor to the bill to handle such a request, rather than just offer it freely, IMO. My LBS charges only $20/hr for such labor.
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

  29. #29
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    Yep as everybody starts switching to online buying this becomes the issue. Out of curiosity, when a LBS bought bike has issues, do they just fix it all on the spot in all cases? I guess if you pay hundreds and in the case of higher end bikes thousands more, you better get something extra out of spending all the extra. Nothing is free when it comes to mountain bikes. Paying double or triple for a little extra customer service, I can do without.
    I do all my own maintenance and fall into the DIYer category. Engine goes, time to park it in the garage and swap in a new one. Shingle roof needs replacement...stuck at home for coronovirus so time to get that sucker swapped to a metal roof. No issues that have come up with the bikes but not paying a LBS for something I can figure out on my own.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Typical customer service:

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    Impression: self-service and lots of waiting.
    Of course that is part of the trade-off when you're trying to sell on thinner margins, right? If you don't buy from a LBS, you very well may run into the same scenario as you experienced if the issue is with a component and not the frame.

    If we're going to have real-talk about BD/Moto, my opinion is that their sub-$1000 bikes are built for novices and have no-fuss components unlikely to require warranty service. Nobody should order their $1000+ bikes unless they are a pretty seasoned rider who knows components & geometry and also has basic wrenching skills IMHO. The rub is that novice riders may still need stuff like derailleur adjustments so they'll have to take them to a mechanic, thereby mitigating some of the "value" of buying from BD. On the higher end, you might very well end up having to deal with a longer warranty turn-around--but that could easily be the case if you order any direct-to-consumer brand. It really just depends on benchstock, and most direct-to-consumer brands operate on razor-thin margins and have limited production and don't maintain benchstock for components that carry their own manufacturer warranty. Again, just my .02 based on buying/upgrading my GF's Moto and also owning a Diamondback Catch 2.

    I often read people tell potential Moto buyers to just buy a used bike. Again, this isn't necessarily bad advice, but a novice will again be going in blind and won't have any warranty at all at that point. Honestly, a novice/casual rider really can't really go wrong with a Motobecane IMHO. The bikes perform just fine. If you get into the sport, you'll learn more about what you need and can make a more informed decision in the future. If you're spending $1000+ on a Bikes Direct bike, you better know your shit going in...but that same advice goes when ordering a direct-to-consumer Canyon or Yeti too.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    I'm sure one of those "LBS worshippers" will point out how direct-to-consumer customers are directed to rely on LBS, where they might not be getting paid for the warranty processing service. They should add at least an hour of general labor to the bill to handle such a request, rather than just offer it freely, IMO. My LBS charges only $20/hr for such labor.
    I don't know that Bikes Direct/Canyon/Yet/Diamondback or any other direct-to-consumer manufacturer would steer somebody to an LBS to process a component warranty claim. Maybe they would? I honestly don't know, but it seems unlikely. And if they did, I agree that the LBS should get paid.

    But the LBS model of old should die. I'm sorry, but that business model just isn't viable in the 21st Century. They're just not price-competitive in an era when folks can order components off of Amazon or Ebay and direct-to-consumer bikes are ridden by both novices and pros. Plus, most of us have experienced the snobbiness so common in LBSs.

    Personally, I like going to REI for what little mechanical work I can't do myself. Their mechanics are great, their prices are competitive, they don't try to upsell me, they've taught me how to do lots of stuff (I buy most of my bike tools from them), and they don't care if I'm riding a $7000 Orbea or a $350 Motobecane. That said, the local Orbea dealer just went out of business because he was a big snob and literally belittled bikes he didn't sell. I bought carbon friction paste from him one time, and it took me all of 5 minutes to decide I'd never do business with him again.

  32. #32
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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Varaxis again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Typical customer service:


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    Impression: self-service and lots of waiting.
    Rigid SS 29er
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  33. #33
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    Interesting how the topic shifts to business.

    Business is like a shady word these days.

    Try to profiteer and people question your morals.

    Want someone to tell you something that may not make them look good? None of your business!

    I'm now reminded of secretive countries that do just this, being secretive with their stats on COVID-19. This is something virtually all private businesses do, hiding their data and research, that we can live with, but can't accept from a government.

    The country I'm part of being led by a businessman, who suggests it should be run like a business... XD

    How big data companies like Facebook and Google do business...

    The topic can get a bit crazy in scope, but I get the general impression that you go BD if you accept the lack of human/personal touch and don't want to pay for such. Maybe why a lot of boutique brands take pride in being "rider owned", wanting to show they care and want to humanize the dealing rather than be a bicycle vending machine that uses persuasive technology, preying on those weak to such predatory tactics. People probably just preaching why such care behind the boutique stuff matters, getting upset when they're disregarded...

    P.S. a lot of my email dealings with BD are like those two examples, where they redirect me to others. They did ask me for details in picture/video form, saying it was to better serve me, but they still just redirected me to others (maybe in one case, it was to determine if it were Shimano or Novatec that I needed to contact). It's just like a canned message, to act as damage control, as if that was the entire purpose of their public relations "service" line.
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

  34. #34
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    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Varaxis again."

    I've wondered about certain people in here. Is there some notification coming up about most recent thread activity so they chime in on the latest comments being made on the whole forum or do they seek the Motobecane subforum out specifically to come in and attack/harass?

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    I'm now reminded of secretive countries that do just this, being secretive with their stats on COVID-19. This is something virtually all private businesses do, hiding their data and research, that we can live with, but can't accept from a government.
    .
    It's when keeping secrets that actually harms the rest of the world when it becomes an evil process. Their government is corrupt and needs to be put in check. Not to stray too into politics but they(China since it's obvious who we are talking about) are not known to be too concerned with human lives as is evident by their twisted organ harvesting among other issues they are known for.

  36. #36
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    I bought a 2019 Hal Boost Eagle LTD as many on here already know. There is a LOT of elitism out there and even on my local trails. People are loyal to the bike shops where they bought their expensive boutique brand bikes. I personally don't care what you ride and welcome all new riders.
    That being said, I would buy a Moto again without hesitation. BUT, I am a good bike mechanic with a repair stand & tools so that is a factor.

    Motobecane Owners: Are You Taunted by Fellow Mountain Bikers?-71647937_10218469290755729_8254354207159615488_o.jpg

    I'm 250 lbs and trust my Kinesis Moto frame 100% and the components are the same as bikes costing 4k-6k but I paid 2k! My signature (I think from Keith Bontrager) is: 'Strong, Light, Cheap; Pick Two.' Well with a Motobecane you might get all 3.
    Strong, Light, Cheap; Pick Two.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfacecreations View Post
    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Varaxis again."

    I've wondered about certain people in here. Is there some notification coming up about most recent thread activity so they chime in on the latest comments being made on the whole forum or do they seek the Motobecane subforum out specifically to come in and attack/harass?
    I'd say a little bit of both.
    Strong, Light, Cheap; Pick Two.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfacecreations View Post
    It's when keeping secrets that actually harms the rest of the world when it becomes an evil process. Their government is corrupt and needs to be put in check. Not to stray too into politics but they(China since it's obvious who we are talking about) are not known to be too concerned with human lives as is evident by their twisted organ harvesting among other issues they are known for.
    Does a business tell you that their factory has a 5% defect/reject rate for their main production line? Does it tell you that it told the factory to make it using tech like another brands', but cheaper, intending to undercut that brand, also squeaking in better margins by cutting out various QA measures? Does it tell you any issues and complaints that other owners have? What things does it not tell you that could cause a potential customer to scrutinize?

    5% might actually be better than the industry standard, especially for niche specialty performance products on their initial production run, but does it help anyone if they pridefully brag about it? It might even result into a marketing war, where brands treat it as a target to "improve" for the sake of sales and brand image, if consumers treat it discerningly as a deal-maker/breaker. Maybe a brand like Cervelo wants to cut that down to 3.5% and, in order to do that, their engineer signs off on the acceptable tolerance range being 0.12mm for some of their parts, like their pressfit BB shells (BBRight). Does an average Joe understand how that differs from product with acceptable tolerances being 0.02mm? Such poor tolerances leads to premature bearing failure, but not immediate failure; perhaps they're counting on the average Joe to not notice when it subtly degrades, and looks to up their spending on a new BB from ~35 to well over 2x that? Does the engineer reveal that he got a bonus/raise for doing that, believing they deserve a cozy luxurious lifestyle that should come with his engineering skill, that they sacrificed for so long working in this industry?

    When people don't have info, it's expected that many will fill in with imagination. I made the last couple paragraphs up, based off my pre-existing knowledge. It's not deduction, not extrapolation & interpolation, nor conjecture. It's fictional, but some may find it possible enough to sway their opinion. They'll maybe even use that as a guide to find niche facts evidence to validate their imagination, perhaps even calling it research (hah!). It's mindnumbing to see people pit their belief vs another's, and simply defend their own. It's a farce to argue this way, and argue where the line is drawn regarding what's evil or intolerable.

    Some people drew their line at BD's form of commerce, and the habits it reinforces in consumers. Adding the argument style of some BD owners, who are trying to be defensive, is just another thing for others to knock, that stokes this fire. I come in here to analyze what's causing the fire, and it's like BD owners come in clad in paper armor with the word "innocent" typed in bold face on it, trying to get people put out the fire rather than enjoy it like a bonfire. Others see the paper armor and try to correct "innocent" to "ignorant", and try to warn that they'll likely catch fire too. Some offer legit facts and evidence but being pummeled with such causes the BD owners to back away and try to huddle with each other until their ass backs into the fire. It's like you think it's valorous to fight vs the world with only your anecdote (study size of 1, maybe 2 or 3, rise up BD owners!)...

    I just get the impression that ignorant folk are too ignorant to know how ignorant they are, and defensive folk like to think they're innocent to the very end, no matter how low they get, blaming their disgraceful acts on the antagonists. These behavior patterns stand out so much that my idea of actually decent folk seems fictional. I don't have much patience for those who are willfully ignorant.
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

  39. #39
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    LOL, you've gone too deep into this for me. I just buy the best bike I can for the $ and it ends there.

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    Honestly, we're just talking about bicycles. Bikes have been around for over a hundred years. Despite all the marketing, they're not extremely sophisticated pieces of machinery. Sure, we like them to be light, fast, stable, etc., but at the end of the day they're just simple human-powered machines. Nobody is endangering themselves buying a Motobecane. They're fine bikes. Maybe you're happier on something else--great! My primary bikes aren't Motos, but when my GF decided she wanted to ride, I got her an inexpensive Moto and built it up for her. And you know what? That thing performs better in XC riding than my primary full-suspension bike that literally cost 6x more. In fact, I'm currently riding her Moto because my $400 dropper post (which cost more than her stock bike) is currently busted. Everytime I take that Moto out in the mountains, I am just amazed at how well it performs.

    I get tired of the trolling in this forum from people who just come here to badmouth them and not interact in any constructive, positive way. Seriously...go do that in some other manufacturer's forum please. The owner of MTBR actually rides a Motobecane...and I think that pretty much says volumes.

  41. #41
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    Guess it's a deep down programmed habit to continue with farcical arguments, just laying out your stance and looking to defend it. Pointing out how stupid it is doesn't change it. XD

    Reading between the lines: you upgraded the sub-400 bike... clearly amazed by how well the Motobecane performed, and not how much certain parts can dictate the experience, like the tires and brakes.

    Beware the deteriorating quality/performance from virtually all of its moving parts. If your GF becomes upset that it feels all blown out after you ride it at actual mountains (seriously?), won't be too long before she wants a fresher one. Part of the reason why people pay more for sophisticated machinery... Walmart bike is like shopping the 99c store for tools, whereas BD is like Harbor Freight, and the truly desired brands are like Makita. There's higher end than that, but I imagine someone might have been burned by the F'ers at DeWalt, thinking it's almost the cost of a Makita and is a known name brand and should have good support being sold at a well known retailer, and had styling you liked better, but after a disappointing experience come to a conclusion that there's no reason to spend more for casual use.
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Guess it's a deep down programmed habit to continue with farcical arguments, just laying out your stance and looking to defend it. Pointing out how stupid it is doesn't change it. XD

    Reading between the lines: you upgraded the sub-400 bike... clearly amazed by how well the Motobecane performed, and not how much certain parts can dictate the experience, like the tires and brakes.

    Beware the deteriorating quality/performance from virtually all of its moving parts. If your GF becomes upset that it feels all blown out after you ride it at actual mountains (seriously?), won't be too long before she wants a fresher one.

    Yeah, I upgraded it because it was a fun project. But the only things I changed were 3rd party components--the Motobecane frame is super nice, and the geometry is great. There really was nothing wrong with the stock kit; it was just entry-level, which is 100% okay.

    I honestly don't know what you're doing in this sub. Do you have this much animus towards other brands that have their own issues (e.g. non-payment of their suppliers)? You're just shitting on a brand that lots of people are happy to ride. Look, I've criticized BD and some of the Moto line myself in this sub (even on my own bike-build thread), but you know what you're doing is just bashing....that's just not welcome in this forum, and I doubt you'd find that behavior welcome in any other manufacturer forum here on this site.

  43. #43
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    I'm here cause I don't like the bad name you types are giving other BD/moto owners, like myself.

    Opinionated garbage, especially the biased kind, receives bashing everywhere. I feel a responsibility to counter misleading information, with honest and realistic less-biased info.

    There's apparently a word to describe those who spread this opinionated garbage, thinking their mfg forum is a safe space from bashing: "Homers". I only really see this word used in the Turner forum, but they have a notorious rep for being cult-like in drinking their opinionated garbage like kool-aid. To me, it's an extremely strong reason to avoid those brands.

    The victim mentality (AKA victim-playing) is another shameful act that you guys are making me counter. I'm also noticing all sorts of child-like development habits that linger, like the stage boys have where they're all militant, liking weapons and fire of all sorts (including fighter jets, guns, explosives, large blades) wanting to instigate conflict so they can go on the offense, such as attacking peoples' character.

    Does anyone want to be associated with such people? Do you care about other BD/moto owners really? The amount/lack of care you show to humans in general, other than the ones in your exclusive circle, is really revealing, perhaps reinforcing the idea people have about BD/moto owners.

    My posts here are like troubleshooting to me. It's like my form of showing care. Made a few attempts to try and get through...
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

  44. #44
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    Never argue with an idiot, they will only drag you down to their level...
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  45. #45
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    Story about this style of arguing: https://medium.com/108-buddhist-para...t-b632f965681a

    It's a farce.

    My best guess at why people continue to engage in this is a matter of ego and self-esteem. It's a weird case of people seeking a life of non-regret by personally redefining what should be deemed tolerable, or what is innocent (not bad). They seek peace by calling for mercy, rather than strive for good and virtue.
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

  46. #46
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    Outsider here intrigued by the ongoing topic. Do I think there is anything wrong with owning a Moto bike? No, my good neighbor owns 2. They appear to be reasonably modern frames offering mainstream components at a great value, though some combos seem odd. Perception however is 100% presentation. What I dislike is the BD website...itís straight out of the 90ís, is a complete rats nest to navigate, itís impossible to comprehend the jumbled groupings of data, and the false MSRPs to give the appearance of a 50% off sale is absurd. What is worse? The Moto website...It is in no way, shape, or form anything resembling a manufacturerís website...a mere shell/front. In a word, Frightening.

    By contrast, Polygon hails from the same region offering value bikes with great component pkgs and is sold in the US through BO. The BO website is inviting, information is very well laid out, is easy to navigate and find what you seek. The Polygon website is a real manufacturer website containing all the information for their entire portfolio presented in a manner you expect from reputable businesses.

    Now on to the CD support topic. I own a consumer direct bike and I have had 3 component warranty claims. Did I contact the bike customer support? no... Did I ask my LBS for help? no... I contacted the component manufacturers and got fantastic support! What might I contact bike customer support for? Frame issues since that is that they manufactured. What do I go to the LBS for? All labor that is beyond my capability.

    Just my 2 cents...

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undescended View Post
    Outsider here intrigued by the ongoing topic. Do I think there is anything wrong with owning a Moto bike? No, my good neighbor owns 2. They appear to be reasonably modern frames offering mainstream components at a great value, though some combos seem odd. Perception however is 100% presentation. What I dislike is the BD website...itís straight out of the 90ís, is a complete rats nest to navigate, itís impossible to comprehend the jumbled groupings of data, and the false MSRPs to give the appearance of a 50% off sale is absurd. What is worse? The Moto website...It is in no way, shape, or form anything resembling a manufacturerís website...a mere shell/front. In a word, Frightening.

    By contrast, Polygon hails from the same region offering value bikes with great component pkgs and is sold in the US through BO. The BO website is inviting, information is very well laid out, is easy to navigate and find what you seek. The Polygon website is a real manufacturer website containing all the information for their entire portfolio presented in a manner you expect from reputable businesses.

    Now on to the CD support topic. I own a consumer direct bike and I have had 3 component warranty claims. Did I contact the bike customer support? no... Did I ask my LBS for help? no... I contacted the component manufacturers and got fantastic support! What might I contact bike customer support for? Frame issues since that is that they manufactured. What do I go to the LBS for? All labor that is beyond my capability.

    Just my 2 cents...
    I can agree with your criticism of BD. The website is atrocious. It is focused almost exclusively on novice riders who don't understand specs and instead pushes the value proposition. You really have to study the component list to REALLY figure out what's going on and where they might be cutting corners. But the average BD buyer is probably somebody who otherwise would be buying a sub $500 bike from WalMart. Pushing the "value" angle must be really effective. There is nothing dishonest (as far as specs go) on the website, but the focus on bogus MSRP and tubeless rims is manipulative to new riders. I would add that the bikes themselves are accurately represented, well-built, perform fine, and are a value over comparable entry level bikes offered by Trek/Specialized/Cannondale/et.al and sold at LBSs.

    I'd also add that if you look at direct-to-consumer/boutique brand manufacturers, a number of them have gone bankrupt or had to re-organize. Niner and Diamondback both come to mind. Bikes Direct, for all its cheeziness, doesn't seem to have a problem selling bikes and staying solvent. So even though more "serious" riders like many of us have complaints about their website, you can't necessarily fault them from a business standpoint. They've found a good niche and are exploiting the hell out of it. Is it cheesy? Absolutely. Is it manipulative? Hell yes. Do they misrepresent their bikes. No.

    I still don't understand the hate towards Moto/BD when it does pop up. It's just stupid. When I see someone on a BD bike, I just think they're a new rider or that they were trying to get into riding on the cheap. They're not bad people...at worst, they're novices and lacked the knowledge to find a good used bike. If I see someone on a $1000+ Moto, I generally just want to check the bike out and ask questions. I don't see a lot of them in the wild, but my experience is that most people who spend that amount know what they're getting into. As I commented previously--the owner of MTBR rides a Moto and loves it.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forbin View Post

    I still don't understand the hate towards Moto/BD when it does pop up.
    You think Moto/BD is the only brand being hated on? Blows my mind.
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfacecreations View Post
    But to be honest, anybody thinking they can feel 5mm or 10mm differences on a bike are full of crap.
    LOL!

    If you think no one can notice 1/2" difference in things like TT/CS length or BB height/drop simply because YOU can't, you're comically mistaken.
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  50. #50
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    Adjusting seat height 5mm, crank length 5mm, BB height 5mm, pedal pin length 2mm, brake lever distance 2mm...

    Geo flip chips like Ride9, adjustable dropouts, the geo differences caused by susp a few % of sag difference (or from preload or vol spacers)...

    Just saying, in case you didn't know about such difference between casual and enthusiast. Didn't want to list it, but people can feel a 0.2mm difference in a part in terms of tuning ride compliance, although it is 10% of the part's overall size. Enthusiasts take care making a conscious decision regarding this component. Care to take a guess at what it is? I bet you'd earn some respect among the enthusiasts here if you guess correctly.

    Like I've already been implying, there's been more judging based on what you let off as an individual than by the name on the downtube. There's a word for people who judge by brand, called brand snobs. Why let them get to you? I just straight up say without embarrassment that I ride a Motobecane, a BikesDirect bike, and acknowledge that I consider it to be the Harbor Freight of bikes. No need to pull BS out of my ass to excuse myself from judgement for such a choice, like some life story behind why I made such a decision. Rebelling against brand snobs is like giving brand snobs validation for existing...
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

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    I ride mainly ride a Haro these day.
    Somehow, I manage not worry about 'bike snobs' looking down on it.
    It's not as hard as you'd think.
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    Thanks Varaxis, I got me a new signature quote!
    d;o)
    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis
    I just straight up say that I ride a Motobecane, a BD bike, and acknowledge I consider it to be the Harbor Freight of bikes

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I ride mainly ride a Haro these day.
    Somehow, I manage not worry about 'bike snobs' looking down on it.
    It's not as hard as you'd think.
    When I got back into riding I ended up buying a used Haro as a second bike. I got it dirt cheap ($45). Boy, I loved that bike...I think it was a 2002 model, but the geometry worked really well for me. In fact, I credit that Haro with sensitizing me to geometry so when I decided to start throwing serious coin at the hobby, I took the time to get pretty educated & informed about geometry. Great bike. I'd love to own a more recent one as a spare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    LOL!

    If you think no one can notice 1/2" difference in things like TT/CS length or BB height/drop simply because YOU can't, you're comically mistaken.

    Yeah, comedy is exactly what it is. I guess this is like when kids install a fart can on their civic and think they can feel it on their butt dyno. Not going down this road.

  55. #55
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    I ride Michigan, mostly western and I have never seen anyone cares what the other Folks are riding. One of my bikes is high end and almost nobody knows or cares. Just ride...

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Didn't want to list it, but people can feel a 0.2mm difference in a part in terms of tuning ride compliance, although it is 10% of the part's overall size.
    1/128th of an inch? I call BS. And what part is 2mm?

    But I agree with Slappy on 1/2" being very noticable.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  57. #57
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    Had a few email messages regarding posts in here...

    Just to let you cats know, we're keeping an eye on things.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    1/128th of an inch? I call BS. And what part is 2mm?

    But I agree with Slappy on 1/2" being very noticable.
    Two exact bikes and I mean EXACT in every way except one difference, the chainstay 1/2" longer...if somebody can notice the difference and it actually making a difference? That I would pay to see them take the Pepsi challenge. That's just princess and the pea stuff to me. Now adding in a bunch of small changes not all apparent other than actually taking out the measuring tape, I can see how if will make the bike fit better/more comfortable/handle better/etc. And here's the real heart of the matter and why probably BD does so well, even if it was possible to feel such a small increment in anything on one bike to the next bike, is it worth paying double for? The biggest knock against BD bikes are the older geometry. I went through pages of side by side geometries compared for all sorts of bikes and realized that this "older" geometry that is often complained of was not really that at all. Now this is all based off of the bike I specifically bought(2020 Hal CF) so I can't vouch for the rest of their catalog since I didn't scrutinize every bike they sell.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by driver bob View Post
    Had a few email messages regarding posts in here...

    Just to let you cats know, we're keeping an eye on things.
    I vote to close the thread. Little good can come from it based on the topic and it's been discussed ad nauseam. Just beating a dead horse.
    Strong, Light, Cheap; Pick Two.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfacecreations View Post
    Two exact bikes and I mean EXACT in every way except one difference, the chainstay 1/2" longer...if somebody can notice the difference and it actually making a difference?
    You apparently have never owned a bike sliding dropouts or an EBB that make it really easy to test these sort of things using the EXACT same bike. True, correct?

    I own 2 bikes with EBBs as well as 4 with sliding dropouts (not counting an additional 5 BMX bikes with horizontal drop-outs). I don't have any with Anglesets, but these also offer ways to make 'small' but very noticeable changes to geometry.

    I'm by no means very 'fine tuned' compared to many here and even I can notice the difference in front wheel 'lightness' that sliding my rear wheel or rotating my BB forward/back makes. Rotating my BB from low to high, changing the BB drop, makes an even bigger difference.

    You're obviously speaking from a position of little to no actual experience with this sort of thing.
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  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forbin View Post
    When I got back into riding I ended up buying a used Haro as a second bike. I got it dirt cheap ($45). Boy, I loved that bike...I think it was a 2002 model, but the geometry worked really well for me. In fact, I credit that Haro with sensitizing me to geometry so when I decided to start throwing serious coin at the hobby, I took the time to get pretty educated & informed about geometry. Great bike. I'd love to own a more recent one as a spare.
    They put together some decent bikes at decent prices. GREAT customer service IME also.
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  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalskool View Post
    I vote to close the thread. Little good can come from it based on the topic and it's been discussed ad nauseam. Just beating a dead horse.
    I second this. This thread is now over a year old; personally I canít believe people are still arguing over brand snobbery (on one hand) or feeling picked on because they chose the budget brand they did (on the other.)

    Run what ya brung. Enjoy or donít ó itís your call. Be accountable.

    Bob, please lock this thread. Itís accomplishing nothing besides fostering arguments plus taking up space that it doesnít deserve. Thanks.
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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    1/128th of an inch? I call BS. And what part is 2mm?

    But I agree with Slappy on 1/2" being very noticable.
    Steel wire spokes, and their diameter.

    Shall I bring up how people seemingly feel a big difference regarding tubing diameter (e.g. 34 vs 35mm fork stanchion), rear hub engagement, suspension, handlebar sweep and roll, 0.1" or 2mm tire width, lubrication oil?

    P.S. to add to another post asking why I'm here, I got a negative rep from the guy who thinks it's all a joke. He tried to be sneaky, giving it to one of my posts in a different thread.
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Bob, please lock this thread. Itís accomplishing nothing besides fostering arguments plus taking up space that it doesnít deserve. Thanks.
    =sParty
    You just described a solid percentage of the threads on this site.

    Nobody is saying anything terrible here. While somewhat off-topic (oh no!), there's nothing but fairly standard discussion of bike geometry going on.
    I've been on this site a long time, and there's nothing in this thread that remotely rises to the level of what typically gets a thread locked, unless there's a bunch of deleted posts I'm not aware of.
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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Steel wire spokes, and their diameter.

    Shall I bring up how people seemingly feel a big difference regarding tubing diameter, rear hub engagement, suspension, handlebar sweep and roll, 0.1" or 2mm tire width, lubrication oil?

    Oh ya, part of the reason I'm here is that I got a nice negative rep from the guy who thinks it's all a joke, but he tried to be sneaky giving it to one of my posts in a different thread.
    Yeah, some people believe that they can feel the difference between the same tires at the same pressure if tubed or tubeless. I'm not very sold that anyone can do that in a blind taste-test, but 1/2" on a frame or fork can make a noticeable difference. Not anything most people can't adjust to quickly and easily, but still noticeable to many people who spend a lot of time on bikes.

    Positive rep given to cancel out the negative and then some.
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  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post

    P.S. to add to another post asking why I'm here, I got a negative rep from the guy who thinks it's all a joke. He tried to be sneaky, giving it to one of my posts in a different thread.

    Negative reputation received from Varaxis :
    03-22-2020 02:29 AM
    Thread: Motobecane Owners: Are You Taunted by Fellow Mountain Bikers?
    "Demonstrating terrible reading comprehension"

    Negative reputation given to Varaxis:
    03-22-2020 04:58 PM
    Thread: Help with removing ebike crank.
    "Mind your own business"

    Sorry didn't mean to hurt the tender feelings lol
    Nobody is sneaking, ALL reps given out come with our names attached. If anything you "sneaked" in and gave me some negative without being part of the conversation so I dished it right back to you.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Steel wire spokes, and their diameter.

    Shall I bring up how people seemingly feel a big difference regarding tubing diameter (e.g. 34 vs 35mm fork stanchion), rear hub engagement, suspension, handlebar sweep and roll, 0.1" or 2mm tire width, lubrication oil?

    P.S. to add to another post asking why I'm here, I got a negative rep from the guy who thinks it's all a joke. He tried to be sneaky, giving it to one of my posts in a different thread.
    Ok, I'll give you partial credit on the spokes. I'm lightweight and I doubt I'd notice a difference in the flex between 2mm and 1.8mm but maybe. But not on 1/128th of an inch difference on the other stuff you listed. There is a big difference between 0.1" (1/10th) and 0.0078125" (1/128th)

    I bet you can find variances of that amount on a lot of our gear. I'll notice my stem isn't quite 100% on straight visually while riding and it will bother me briefly and then I'll forget about it and not notice it at all.

    Possibly on the thickness of the tubing on a steel frame.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    You just described a solid percentage of the threads on this site.

    Nobody is saying anything terrible here. While somewhat off-topic (oh no!), there's nothing but fairly standard discussion of bike geometry going on.
    I've been on this site a long time, and there's nothing in this thread that remotely rises to the level of what typically gets a thread locked, unless there's a bunch of deleted posts I'm not aware of.
    Canít argue with you there. Guess Iím just tired of what I perceive ó right or wrong ó as whining.

    My bad.
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  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    I second this. This thread is now over a year old; personally I canít believe people are still arguing over brand snobbery (on one hand) or feeling picked on because they chose the budget brand they did (on the other.)

    Bob, please lock this thread. Itís accomplishing nothing besides fostering arguments plus taking up space that it doesnít deserve. Thanks.
    =sParty
    Ive had two separate requests to lock this now but really there's nothing here that really warrants it to be shut down. It had not had any activity in almost a year until a few days ago. There are many threads like that on this site and I don't see any of those shut down either.

    I'm continuing to get updates when replies are posted (maybe a little slower as I'm not on my work email everyday at the moment) so be assured I am continuing to watch this thread.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Canít argue with you there. Guess Iím just tired of what I perceive ó right or wrong ó as whining.

    My bad.
    =sParty
    No, you're right homey, there's plenty of whining in here.
    Apparently so much it's spilling over.

    But if we start shutting threads every time someone gets all upset about being disagreed with, this whole site would be done for. Someone apparently needs to HTFU.
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  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Possibly on the thickness of the tubing on a steel frame.
    Definitely, as well as butting, etc.
    Same goes for aluminum - wall thickness, butting, diameter/shaping.
    That stuff is mainly noticeable on HTs of course.

    When it comes to FS, the effects of moving a pivot point 1/2" can be incredibly noticeable.
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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by driver bob View Post
    I'm continuing to get updates when replies are posted (maybe a little slower as I'm not on my work email everyday at the moment) so be assured I am continuing to watch this thread.
    Thanks. I rescind my request to lock this thread. The content is actually quite revealing. People have a right to read it and draw their own conclusions.

    And I have the right to not click on it anymore.

    Thanks for your level headed patience.
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  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post

    But if we start shutting threads every time someone gets all upset about being disagreed with, this whole site would be done for.
    This.

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