Motobecane lost their mojo?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Motobecane lost their mojo?

    With the arrival of Fantom 29PRO SL, the final piece of the 29er lineup is complete and I
    have to say is that it?
    Other manufacturers have caught up in the bargain niche. Sette Razzo, Performance Access XCL brand, Scott Scale 29er, even Gary Fisher XCaliber have better overall frames and components in my opinion. I suspect the same is true across their other bike lines.
    The gap has closed and I question their marketing choices. I eagerly awaited this years arrivals but I will buy elsewhere.

  2. #2
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    I'm assuming you mean the 2011 Fantom 29Pro for $1195, as the ProSL has been discontinued (though some are still available).

    The Razzo comes close, X7/X9 vs. XT/XTR with a Reba for $100 more. The frame and other components seem pretty even. Though I'm not sure who makes Sette brand frames.

    The performance Access 9.7 comes in a few hundred less (the same price as last year's Fantom ProSL), but only has a Tora fork, Juicy5 brakes, and full X7. Plus, the frame is made in China (vs the made in Taiwan Kinesis frame of the Moto), which was kind of a turn-off for me.

    The only Scott Scale model that has components on par with the new Fantom Pro is the Scale 29 Pro, which looks like a great bike, but it's also $2500...There;s cheaper models, but all have cheaper components.

    The X-Caliber is also a neat looking ride. Full X7 and a Reba with Juicy 3's for $1500 is a pretty good deal.


    I'll agree with you that BD isn't the only game in town, but I still can't find a place with better deals on current model completes.
    Everything in moderation. Including moderation.

  3. #3
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    There is one more bike to come the FS 29... I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to see those bikes...
    Motobecane still has some great bikes, sure others are stepping up, I'm not looking to buy, but if I do it'll be another Motobecane. It sure would be nice to have a 29,, HHHhhhmmm!! Maybe...???? well see !!!!!
    Last edited by manabiker; 12-21-2010 at 07:24 AM.

  4. #4
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    I have been looking forward to the new FS 29er as well, but with the new 29 SL priced at $1495 - I am not optimistic about the what the price of the new FS bike will be.

    http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/...9pro_SL_xi.htm
    Last edited by Squatcho; 12-21-2010 at 01:55 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squatcho
    I have been looking forward to the new FS 29er as well, but with the new 29 SL priced at $1495 - I am not optimistic about the what the price of the new FS bike will be.

    http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/...9pro_SL_xi.htm
    yep, if its priced over 2 grand, i'm out.

  6. #6
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    I stand corrected. I swear I didn't see a new ProSL when I looked last night. Glad I was able to get my 2010 ProSL for $500 less than that!
    Everything in moderation. Including moderation.

  7. #7
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    The 2010 Pro SL did not have xtr front derailler and XTR shifters either, as well as a better crank. The other bikes compared above do not have similar level drivetrains. I will agree that I feel for what I wanted from a BD bike the 2010 was a much greater value for me.

  8. #8
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    @Cuzinmike
    I stand corrected. I swear I didn't see a new ProSL when I looked last night.
    It probably may not have been there the other night. BD sends out a message and a link on its yahoo group when new bikes/new stock are available and they aren't visible on the BD site for a day or two. Also note on the BD site - at the end of some rows there is a link to more bikes.

    @Adim_X

    The 2010 Pro SL did not have xtr front derailler and XTR shifters either, as well as a better crank. The other bikes compared above do not have similar level drivetrains. I will agree that I feel for what I wanted from a BD bike the 2010 was a much greater value for me.
    Mike has always targeted Bikes Direct as a company that provides solid value in its product. Certainly the value is still there, but I see it beginning to evaporate in places. For example I hate to see SR Suntour components creeping into the 29er lineup. I'm sure that someone will be able to tell me that these products are better than I think,etc. - but when I see Suntour fork my perception is Walmart/Target quality. Since I would never even consider a bike at that level, in my mind the bottom of the true value line is the cheapest bike that doesn't have that junk on it. If I cross those bikes off the list, the effective bottom rung price has risen substantially. For me the 29 Pro SL was great at $995, but no longer on my list at $1495. I'd buy an X-Caliber or ante up a little more for the privilege of buying locally.

    That's how I feel, but ultimately it is a moot point. If Mike can't keep bikes in stock he can and should be moving his prices north - Its good business and I applaud it.

  9. #9
    DynoDon
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    there are 2 Pro SL's

    One is $995 the other is $1495 one is 20 speed one is 27 speed

  10. #10
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    I was under the impression that that the 995 model was being phased out and replaced by the new 27 speed. I hope I am wrong about that, but at present only 13" bikes are left in stock. And of course there are several other good deals in the 29er lineup.

  11. #11
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    When I saw the new 2011 Pro SL at $1495 I couldn't believe it. I had been waiting for this bike because I want a 20 speed drive-train (I think that 30 speed setups are pointless). I am going to go with a Salsa El Mariachi for $1600. It has a higher quality hand made frame, full X9 setup with a thru axle Reba and a great wheelset. I can also support my friend who owns the bike shop with my purchase. Bikesdirect obviously has the best deals for the Ti bikes, but they need to be careful of loosing the lower end market.

    http://salsacycles.com/bikes/el_mariachi/

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajs339
    With the arrival of Fantom 29PRO SL, the final piece of the 29er lineup is complete and I
    have to say is that it?
    Other manufacturers have caught up in the bargain niche. Sette Razzo, Performance Access XCL brand, Scott Scale 29er, even Gary Fisher XCaliber have better overall frames and components in my opinion. I suspect the same is true across their other bike lines.
    The gap has closed and I question their marketing choices. I eagerly awaited this years arrivals but I will buy elsewhere.

    The Answer is no - Motobecane has not lost it's Mojo
    in fact we will sell more next year than ever before; without question
    And I wish I could get more

    But you are correct, that some online selling are offering great value besides us

    But on quality of frame you have missed it; ours are not better than Fisher, Scott etc AND theirs are not better than ours -- these frames are all the same quality, QC level, and so on

    I think once our complete line is veiwed for 2011; we will be the value provider in every class. But it is hard when we keep a name [Like ProSL] and then completely change the specs and suppliers chance prices and the currency shifts

    By Spring / Summer we will add over 10 new 29ers and the values will be super.
    And all will sell out quickly; that is my forecast

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by davemk
    When I saw the new 2011 Pro SL at $1495 I couldn't believe it. I had been waiting for this bike because I want a 20 speed drive-train (I think that 30 speed setups are pointless). I am going to go with a Salsa El Mariachi for $1600. It has a higher quality hand made frame, full X9 setup with a thru axle Reba and a great wheelset. I can also support my friend who owns the bike shop with my purchase. Bikesdirect obviously has the best deals for the Ti bikes, but they need to be careful of loosing the lower end market.

    http://salsacycles.com/bikes/el_mariachi/
    The Salsa is a great bike; we have a steel Moto 29er [called the 9Iron] which is on the way and is the X7 level. It will be about $900 or so

    But you can not really compare Shimano's top components with Sram's 4th from the top.
    Take a close look at the specs - both are great bikes; but lookup cost of E-5 brakes vs E-CR or the cranks or the shifters

    We will be adding several bikes with 30-speed X7/X9 setups
    and the specs vs price will be the best in the industry

    ~~~~ Salsa spec
    Frameset
    Frame El Mariachi, Kung Fu CroMoly tubing with Alternator Dropout
    Color Charcoal Briquette
    Weight TBA
    Drivetrain
    Crankset FSA Comet, 27/40T, Black
    Chainring FSA, 27/40T
    Bottom Bracket FSA
    Chain SRAM PC1030
    Cassette Sram PG-1050, 12-36T
    Front Derailleur SRAM X7, 2x10, Low Clamp, Bottom Pull
    Rear Derailleur SRAM X9, 10-speed, Mid Cage, Red
    Components
    Fork RockShox Reba RL 29'er, Maxle, Black
    Headset Cane Creek S-3, Black
    Handlebar Salsa Pro Moto 11-Degree Flat, 31.8mm, Black
    Stem Salsa Pro Moto, 31.8mm, Black
    Grips Salsa Juegos de Fuegos, Black
    Front Brake SRAM Elixr 5, 185mm, 6-Bolt
    Rear Brake SRAM Elixr 5, 160mm, 6-Bolt
    Brake Levers SRAM Elixr 5
    Tires WTB Bronson Race, 29 x 2.1"
    Front Shifter SRAM X-7 Trigger, 2 x 10
    Rear Shifter SRAM X-7 Trigger, 10-Speed
    Seatpost Salsa Shaft 27.2mm x 410
    Seatclamp Salsa Shaft 27.2mm x 410
    Saddle WTB Silverado
    Wheels
    Front Hub Formula, 32H, Red
    Rear Hub Formula, 32H, Red
    Quick Release Formula, Red
    Spokes DT Swiss, Competition, Butted 2.0/1.8, Black
    Rims Stan's, Arch 29'er, 32-Hole


    ~~~~~~~ Motobecane Spec
    Frame MOTO29X Aluminum with TrailTuned PowerStay Design, DualProfile Downtube with reinforced Gusset, replaceable rear derailleur hanger, water bottle mount
    Fork RockShox Reba 29" RL Travel:100mm w/Pop Loc remote, Adjustable Rebound
    Crankset FSA Afterburner HollowForged Aluminum arms, 30BK/42SIL Rings
    (15":170mm,17"19"21":175L)
    Bottom Bracket FSA MegeEXO, external bearing, 68mm
    Pedals Mountain Platform
    Front Derailleur Shimano DynaSys XTR KFDM980M6 10 Speed, 31.8mm clamp
    Rear Derailleur Shimano DynaSys XTR KRDM980SGS 10SPEED
    Shifters Shimano DynaSys 2-Way Release XTR KSLM980 20 Speed
    Cassette/Freewheel Shimano DynaSys SLX KCS-HG81-10 11-36t 10Speed 11-32T
    Chain Shimano SLX KCNHG74112
    Hubs Gravity by Formula, Precision bearing Disc, Black Anodize finish with Quick Release
    Spokes Stainless steel
    Rims WTB Lazer disc Trail 29", 32h w/single eyelet Black anodized Aluminum
    Tires Kenda Small Block8 29x2.1, 120TPI, Folding Bead
    Brakes Avid Elixir CR Hydraulic Disc front and rear, 185mm G3 CleanSweep Rotor front/rear
    Brake Levers Avid Elixir CR for Disc Brake
    Headset FSA or CaneCreek (NoChoice) Sealed Bearing threadless 1 1/8 in
    Handlebar Ritchey COMP Rizer 20mm * 620w * 6 Alloy DIA:31.8Aluminum 6061 T6
    Stem Ritchey Comp 31.8mm Black Finish Aluminum threadless
    Tape/Grip WTB DualCompound
    Saddle WTB RocketV Comp
    Seat Post Ritchey COMP2B 27.2X400mm Alloy Black Finish Aluminum Mountain
    Seat Post Clamp Super Light Alloy with Quick Release


    ~~~~~

    I do not think you can directly compare these two specs
    and from an OEM cost point of view - they are no where close

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squatcho
    I have been looking forward to the new FS 29er as well, but with the new 29 SL priced at $1495 - I am not optimistic about the what the price of the new FS bike will be.

    http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/...9pro_SL_xi.htm
    There will be 5 Moto FS29ers; so we can have selection
    X9 30-speed will be the bottom and around $1295 [unless USD falls a lot more]
    XTR 30-speed at the top for about $1995 [unless YEN goes up a lot more]

    Final price of freshly imported bikes is much more tightly linked to currency than most cyclists think.

    Anyway
    there will be 2 in Sram, one 30s and one 20s
    3 in Shimano , two 30s and one 20s
    And X9, X0, SLX/XT, and XTR

    so there will be choices

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squatcho
    @Cuzinmike


    It probably may not have been there the other night. BD sends out a message and a link on its yahoo group when new bikes/new stock are available and they aren't visible on the BD site for a day or two. Also note on the BD site - at the end of some rows there is a link to more bikes.

    @Adim_X



    Mike has always targeted Bikes Direct as a company that provides solid value in its product. Certainly the value is still there, but I see it beginning to evaporate in places. For example I hate to see SR Suntour components creeping into the 29er lineup. I'm sure that someone will be able to tell me that these products are better than I think,etc. - but when I see Suntour fork my perception is Walmart/Target quality. Since I would never even consider a bike at that level, in my mind the bottom of the true value line is the cheapest bike that doesn't have that junk on it. If I cross those bikes off the list, the effective bottom rung price has risen substantially. For me the 29 Pro SL was great at $995, but no longer on my list at $1495. I'd buy an X-Caliber or ante up a little more for the privilege of buying locally.

    That's how I feel, but ultimately it is a moot point. If Mike can't keep bikes in stock he can and should be moving his prices north - Its good business and I applaud it.

    Thanks for pointing out the newsletter
    it is good when people sign up for it
    and in 2011 I intend to use the Newsletter to offer special deals that are never put on the site

    Two points:

    1 - SR Suntour Forks; these are excellent forks and you will find companies like Tre, Fisher, Specialized, Etc use them. In addition SR Suntour supplies some items that end up in Walmart [so does Shimano, Sram, etc]
    ~ 29er market is growing and I intend to have great bikes that budget minded cyclists can start on. This Includes the Fantom 29 Trail -- BUT also we will soon have the new Gravity HT 29er line-up with 5 models of bikes starting at $399 [a surprisely nice 29er 27-speed for under $400 delivered]

    2 - I have no intention of moving margins up in 2011 or 2012; in fact I am looking at how to cut costs and move margins and prices down. When comparing apples to apples; I intend to always have the best deals. Example: we will have a 29er that is Reba, Exlixar5, X9, 30-spd, etc at about $999 -- but that can not compare with ExlixarCR, XTR level as cost is much different.

  16. #16
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    When the FS 29er comes out will I be able to just buy the frame or will you just sell full bikes? If so what's the price looking like?

  17. #17
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    @Mike
    There will be 5 Moto FS29ers; so we can have selection
    X9 30-speed will be the bottom and around $1295 [unless USD falls a lot more]
    XTR 30-speed at the top for about $1995 [unless YEN goes up a lot more]

    Final price of freshly imported bikes is much more tightly linked to currency than most cyclists think...so there will be choices
    Thanks - good info. My next bike move will be to a FS 29er and I am glad to hear that there will be that many choices.
    Thanks for pointing out the newsletter
    it is good when people sign up for it
    and in 2011 I intend to use the Newsletter to offer special deals that are never put on the site
    I have to admit that I have been reluctant to point out the group site in the past, mainly because the early info may give me an edge on a good purchase in the future

    SR Suntour Forks; these are excellent forks and you will find companies like Trek, Fisher, Specialized, Etc use them. In addition SR Suntour supplies some items that end up in Walmart [so does Shimano, Sram, etc]
    I should say this first - perception is everything. It used to be that I saw Suntour forks etc only on Walmart bikes. Lately they have been showing up on Trek and Specialized at my local store, but my perception has been that overall the component levels across the board dropped a few notches while prices stayed the same or went up $100 or so. Obviously the move to Suntour wasn't because they are great forks, but because they cost less. That may end up being a good business decision, but there is a cost in perception when it comes to quality. Again, if you are selling all you can build none of that matters.

    29er market is growing and I intend to have great bikes that budget minded cyclists can start on. This Includes the Fantom 29 Trail -- BUT also we will soon have the new Gravity HT 29er line-up with 5 models of bikes starting at $399 [a surprisely nice 29er 27-speed for under $400 delivered]
    More good news. thanks. Part my concern was that the line seemed to be filling and I didn't see as much that I liked.

    While we're on the subject...I am looking forward to the 9Iron, but I would also like to suggest another steel bike. I have been wanting (beyond practical reason) a Gary Fisher Sawyer, and there is a danger that it may steal my money before your next batch of 29ers is available I would love to see BD do something like that.

    One final thought. I like the yahoo group site, but it still lacks something. The problem is that it only says "The bikes are here!". I think that you need something else, a blog or something that provides a more continuous/detailed news feed. I can tell you that a lack of info cost you one sale a few months ago. I had been holding out for the new batch of 29ers but I also had a planned ride coming up. I checked stock daily and waited for an email from the newsgroup, and as the deadline loomed I finally bought a used 29er. Two days later your new stock came in, I had to laugh! My point is that a news feed telling me that new bikes would arrive in a few days would have saved us both.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    ~~~~ Salsa spec
    Fork RockShox Reba RL 29'er, Maxle, Black
    ~~~~~~~ Motobecane Spec
    Fork RockShox Reba 29" RL Travel:100mm w/Pop Loc remote, Adjustable Rebound
    ~~~~~
    Through axles are the way to go in 2011, IMO.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    Through axles are the way to go in 2011, IMO.
    I agree, for me the 3 most important aspect to any bike purchase, (maybe because I weigh 205 lbs), are 1. the frame, 2. the fork, and 3. the wheel-set. These are the most expensive items to upgrade, and affect the ride quality of the bike the most. I know that I am going to wear out cassettes, chains, and break rear derailleurs, but I need the frame, fork and wheels to last. Through axle forks add durability and stiffness to any bike and wheel-set, they also are safer and much easier to use than the traditional QR.

  20. #20
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    Bd Fs 29

    Since the FS 29er prototype design was not well received has another been developed?

    Will the suspension design remain or do you have an alternative in the works?

    Will there be a Ti or carbon frame available? I am surprised that BD does not yet offer carbon HT and FS MTB frames.

    I own two Motos and look forward to the FS 29ers however spring is a long way off and the SC Tallboy sure is appealing.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ret4591
    Since the FS 29er prototype design was not well received has another been developed?
    Huh? A few smartasses who know nothing about engineering voicing off on a message board is "not well received"?

  22. #22
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    Sorry, I didn't look at the spec level of the new Pro SL vs the 2010 Pro SL that's still on the site. The new one does have some higher level items. I just worry that it's a whole new ball game when you reach $1500 for an aluminum HT. Still about the best value around though if you take the time to look at the components. Still, the big boys have a lot of ad dollars to throw at bikes in that price range. Trust me, I'm in marketing

    I won't be in the market for a new mtb again for at least another season, but when I am, I'll still strongly consider BD. I'm still very satisfied with my purchase from them.
    Everything in moderation. Including moderation.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    The Salsa is a great bike; we have a steel Moto 29er [called the 9Iron] which is on the way and is the X7 level. It will be about $900 or so
    Now this has me very interested. If it comes with a Reba and a nice small size (22.5) TT then count me in.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    we have a steel Moto 29er
    Don't you like how "Moto" sounds and looks on a downtube? I think you could grow up from your "Motobecane" and other inherited names marketing, and just go with the "Moto" brand of bikesdirect. It has its own history now.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenny7
    When the FS 29er comes out will I be able to just buy the frame or will you just sell full bikes? If so what's the price looking like?

    Yes
    Framesets will be available

    but the complete bikes will be such good deals
    few framesets will sell

    Frame with rear shock is about $895

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ret4591
    Since the FS 29er prototype design was not well received has another been developed?

    Will the suspension design remain or do you have an alternative in the works?

    Will there be a Ti or carbon frame available? I am surprised that BD does not yet offer carbon HT and FS MTB frames.

    I own two Motos and look forward to the FS 29ers however spring is a long way off and the SC Tallboy sure is appealing.

    I do not think CF is a good choice for off road bikes

    I know I could sell a lot of ATBs and CX bikes with CF frames; but since impacts on CF frames can create special issues and since most off road riders fall a lot; I really think metal frames are best. Just my opinion; although others suggest you replace a CF frame that has had am impact

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    I do not think CF is a good choice for off road bikes

    I know I could sell a lot of ATBs and CX bikes with CF frames; but since impacts on CF frames can create special issues and since most off road riders fall a lot; I really think metal frames are best. Just my opinion; although others suggest you replace a CF frame that has had am impact
    I totally agree and that's why I'll never ever buy a CF mtb frame. Direct impacts can crack the frame and most bike manufacturers won't cover crash damage. Even if a crack is not seen, there can be stress on the frame that may crack over time.

    Ti hardtail or alum FS for me.
    We Ride In God's Country!

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    Through axles are the way to go in 2011, IMO.
    Through axles are not an effective band-aid for a flexy design, but it certainly helps.

    My Fly Team 29 Ti has issues with the QR coming loose and I've heard others have the issue too. I'm in SoCal, which is known for fairly buff trails and I'm 135 lbs. I do ride fairly fast and am skilled enough to take bumps at speed, but it's happening far too often, noticeably on long rides. The bike's stays are just not stiff enough. After I catch the heavy clunk of a wheel loose in the drop outs, I typically notice my wheel has gone out of true too. My rear rotor went out of true the same way too. The only time I take off the rear wheel is to change a flat and I tighten the QR down rather tight ever since the first time I noticed it. Stiffer rear might help with chain drop too... annoying to have the chain slip off on any bump that bounces you... even on the road in the top gear, a bump (like dropping off a curb) makes the chain drop onto the crank arm (usually on the larger cogs in back). On trails, it usually drops down to the smaller ring or BB shell. Also causes chain suck too from pedaling under pressure trying to shift to the granny from a late shift... it just gets jammed between the chainring and the chainstay since all that torque is probably flexing the stays.

    I heard through axles like, the Maxle, come loose too. Friends say they notice others fiddling with them a lot more than they'd expect. Should be set and forget, right?

  29. #29
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    i have to say i totally love my 2010 Fantom 29PRO SL, and at 995 it was a no-brainer. and 3 friends got them after seeing mine! now at 1495, 30spd, 20spd whatever, it would have been out of my price range.

    the 2011 Motobecane Fantom 29PRO seems to compare pretty close to my bike, with a few improvements like better front derailleur and chain, and no downgrades i noticed(unless you got the elixer cr like me ) and at 1195 still seems like a killer deal.

    the 2011 Motobecane Fantom29 PRO SL seems like an entirely different bike, at 1495 it might have been less confusing to give it another name.

    at any rate, i still dont think anybody else can match the value to price ratio of the the moto bikes, and id still consider them for my next bike
    Quote Originally Posted by HamfisT
    I understand that engineering has value in and of itself. But in the end, it's still just a pile of aluminum tubes.

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