Fly Team or Fly Pro? 600 Dollar Justifiability? Fly Team TI Then?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Fly Team or Fly Pro? 600 Dollar Justifiability? Fly Team TI Then?

    I am in the market for a new HT. I know that I want to buy a Motobecane (luckily there is a cycle spectrum that I will buy it from near my house), but I needed some advice. I am sorry in advance if this is a repeated question; I searched the forums vigorously for it, but I couldn't find anything.

    I am split between the Fly team and the Fly pro and still have the Fly team TI in the back of my head. Money is of secondary importance in my situation (but I still want the best cost-benefit ratio).

    First of all, Is it justifiable in your opinion for me to spend an extra 600$ for XTR componentry, better brakes (Avid 7's v. Avid Elixirs) and a better crankset by buying the Fly Team over the Fly Pro? I fear the dreaded "upgraditis", and I simply want a solid, reliable high-performance bike that I can truly enjoy the beautiful sport of mountain biking with. Should I spend a bit more to have the top of the line?

    Also If I should in fact spend the extra money for XTR, why not buy practically the same bike but with a Titanium frame for another 300$? (I am aware they are currently out of stock at BD) This might be a bad way to look at this, but it is a concern. Is this TI frame legitimate? Anything I read about Titanium seems to be extremely reserved for elitists... How can they offer this for an extra 300 bucks when bike shops will justify a similar setup for 5,000$? What is the true benefit of a Titanium frame in general? I have heard it is more rigid and strong, but is that the case with a mere 300$ investment in this situation?

    Also any pictures of these pretty ladies would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks in advance for any wisdom you could share on this decision.

  2. #2
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    Ti frame by a mile. It rides much better, and it is likely to be much more durable in the long run.

    I would only by an aluminum Fly to transfer parts to some nice steel frame - which would be a good deal.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=504752

  3. #3
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    The Fly Pro really is a great option if you are on a tight budget. But that does not sound like the case. It has V-brakes, and heavier wheels/components. If you have money for the Fly Ti that definitely is the bike to buy. The Fly Team is a nice bike, but when you compare cost/benefit, you get so much more for your money with the Fly Ti.

    Titanium (in genereal) is not as strong as steel, nor as light as aluminum. People in the bike world think it is some kind of magical metal that is the strongest and lightest metal known to man, but this just isn't true. It is also usually used in smaller tubing diameters than aluminum so it is less rigid and stiff than an aluminum frame. I personally have never ridden a titanium frame, mainly because I like very rigid frames, but the ride is supposedly comparable to steel, very comfortable and smooth. I have also heard that titanium is not good for heavier riders because it will flex a lot (but this probably depends a lot on frame design), but it is plenty durable for heavier riders. Titanium is typically expensive because you have to weld it in an oxygen free atmoshphere. So that means the welder has to have an oxygen supply. However lets remember that frames are made up of metal tubes, which are not too expensive. So the cost to make any frame is no where near what they sell them for. Motobecane keeps the markup low by have little overhead or marketing costs. Just because something is "cheap" does not neccessarily mean it is low quality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    It is also usually used in smaller tubing diameters than aluminum so it is less rigid and stiff than an aluminum frame. I personally have never ridden a titanium frame, mainly because I like very rigid frames, but the ride is supposedly comparable to steel, very comfortable and smooth. I have also heard that titanium is not good for heavier riders because it will flex a lot (but this probably depends a lot on frame design), but it is plenty durable for heavier riders.
    It does bend. I can mash on pedals and see it move. This does not bother me in this application, as it what gives it its ride. MB's frame is somewhat decent in this regard as it uses a shaped down tube that seem to increase the head tube and BB weld interfaces. It did feel stiffer then Litespeed I used to ride. I think in hardtails maximum possible stiffness is an enemy, or at least not the most important trait. Its the 160mm FS that I want to be stiff. I like ti over steel due to lack of rust and paint and lighter weight.

  5. #5
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    I have found that spending a little more in the beginning goes further in the long run. Usually the rule of thumb is spend more on the frame and less on the components. As you wear out the less expensive components replace them with higher quality components.

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    Thanks for responding all. I had the opportunity to see the Fly titanium in person, and pictures simply cannot do her justification. Thanks for any of the advice you guys put in. I am confident that I will take her home in the next couple weeks.

    However there was one last concern with the Fly line up in general that I had. As I was sitting on the Fly Team and Titanium respectively, I couldn't help to get the feeling that they are a bit skimpy. Could any owners of any of these bikes comment on the durability? The guys at Cycle Spectrum wouldn't let me put some pedals on them to test ride so I can't fully report on the bike. But I have ridden a Specialized Rockhopper for a while and the Fly's simply didn't seem sturdy. Are these bikes capable of most of the tough conditions I could throw at it here in Texas (Trails in my proximity have plenty of rocks and large logs leaving about a 2 foot drop)? I know they are designed as a race bike, but will it work for a bit more of all around use? Thanks for any help.

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    arm017 I know what you mean. I rode a friends steele Bianci and it felt fragile compared to my aluminum full suspension bike. I think it is just the difference in materials and what you are used to. My friend rode all the Austin trails including City Park without any issues. The Ti frame is said to be one of the toughest and lightest. I am 99.9% sure the bike will outlast you if you decide to purchase. That being said as stated the Fly series is designed as a cross country/race/single track bike not a hucking down hill bike. I can't wait to receive my Fly Ti 29er come July!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by arm017
    However there was one last concern with the Fly line up in general that I had. As I was sitting on the Fly Team and Titanium respectively, I couldn't help to get the feeling that they are a bit skimpy. Could any owners of any of these bikes comment on the durability?
    They are a bit skimpy indeed. I decided against the aluminum version some time ago.

    As far as titanium version, I did not ride it long enough to comment on long term durability, but I have bombed down some rocks with my 200lb butt, and nothing happened to it so far. Since titanium does not weaken with time like aluminum does I fully expect it to keep working.

    Somewhere in the forum I have posted a link to MTBR story where they had been testing their dirt jump spot on Fly Ti.



    I would not do it on aluminum version.. And you can destray anything if you keep landing drops in bad form.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    Titanium (in genereal) is not as strong as steel, nor as light as aluminum. .
    This is not correct -
    3/2.5 Titanium is quite a bit "stronger" in virtually every category

    http://www.matweb.com/search/datashe...93399de&ckck=1

    Mechanical Properties Metric English Comments
    Tensile Strength, Ultimate 650 MPa 94300 psi Typical
    Tensile Strength, Yield 550 MPa 79800 psi Typical 0.2% Proof Stress
    Elongation at Break 15.0 % 15.0 % Typical
    Modulus of Elasticity 105 - 120 GPa 15200 - 17400 ksi Typical
    Poissons Ratio 0.300 0.300
    Fatigue Strength 325 MPa 47100 psi Limit; test specifics not reported
    Shear Modulus 43.0 - 45.0 GPa 6240 - 6530 ksi

    vs 4130 CrMo

    http://www.matweb.com/search/DataShe...ebf35b1b2b6259

    Tensile Strength, Ultimate 560 MPa 81200 psi
    Tensile Strength, Yield 460 MPa 66700 psi
    Elongation at Break 21.5 % 21.5 % in 50 mm
    Reduction of Area 59.6 % 59.6 %
    Modulus of Elasticity 205 GPa 29700 ksi Typical for steel
    Bulk Modulus 140 GPa 20300 ksi Typical for steel
    Poissons Ratio 0.290 0.290 Calculated
    Machinability 70 % 70 % annealed and cold drawn. Based on 100% machinability for AISI 1212 steel.
    Shear Modulus 80.0 GPa 11600 ksi Typical for steel

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldassracer
    This is not correct -
    3/2.5 Titanium is quite a bit "stronger" in virtually every category
    You should check this out. Your problem was that you were comparing to 4130. Not many nice steel frames are made of this material.

    http://www.strongframes.com/material_tech/specs/
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    You should check this out. Your problem was that you were comparing to 4130. Not many nice steel frames are made of this material.

    http://www.strongframes.com/material_tech/specs/
    That link uses "ultimate strength" which is not the best definition if you want to look at the material on a logical basis of selection for the purpose
    When you do this, one does not know from their info if the maximum number was derived from tension, compression or shearing.
    A truly "strong/durable" material suitable for real-world use, would have good numbers all around. For example, it is no good if the bicycle material has 0 compression strength but very high tension strength - but it would show a high number on the "ultimate strength" chart.

    Explanation

    There are three definitions of tensile strength:

    Yield strength
    The stress at which material strain changes from elastic deformation to plastic deformation, causing it to deform permanently.
    Ultimate strength
    The maximum stress a material can withstand when subjected to tension, compression or shearing. It is the maximum stress on the stress-strain curve.
    Breaking strength
    The stress coordinate on the stress-strain curve at the point of rupture.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldassracer
    Yield strength
    The stress at which material strain changes from elastic deformation to plastic deformation, causing it to deform permanently.
    Ultimate strength
    The maximum stress a material can withstand when subjected to tension, compression or shearing. It is the maximum stress on the stress-strain curve.
    Breaking strength
    The stress coordinate on the stress-strain curve at the point of rupture.
    I am not sure about all the exact numbers, but the apparent end result is that titanium frames are typically (of course there may be counter examples) lighter, and just as strong, and last as long or longer then steel frames. They also do not need paint, which does add considerable weight, and maintenance.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldassracer
    That link uses "ultimate strength" which is not the best definition if you want to look at the material on a logical basis of selection for the purpose
    When you do this, one does not know from their info if the maximum number was derived from tension, compression or shearing.
    A truly "strong/durable" material suitable for real-world use, would have good numbers all around. For example, it is no good if the bicycle material has 0 compression strength but very high tension strength - but it would show a high number on the "ultimate strength" chart.

    Explanation

    There are three definitions of tensile strength:

    Yield strength
    The stress at which material strain changes from elastic deformation to plastic deformation, causing it to deform permanently.
    Ultimate strength
    The maximum stress a material can withstand when subjected to tension, compression or shearing. It is the maximum stress on the stress-strain curve.
    Breaking strength
    The stress coordinate on the stress-strain curve at the point of rupture.
    Show me the data then. Show me some data showing that 3/2.5 Titanium is a stronger material than Reynolds 853 which is the material almost all high end steel frames are made of. As I said earlier, it is really easy to compare it to 4130, which is a pretty low end steel. Reynolds makes both materials and not even they are claiming that their 3/2.5 Titanium is stronger. Do you know more than they do?
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    Show me the data then. Show me some data showing that 3/2.5 Titanium is a stronger material than Reynolds 853
    Should not it be normalized to density? Adjusted for head treatment after welding?

    Many variables here - but is not it a true statement that the end result is that titanium frames are usually lighter for a given strength, even when weight of paint is not included?

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    Evaluate how you are going to use this bike. For me, I wanted one bike for everything I ride - mainly singletrack with small jumps, fire roads and dirt roads .

    For me:
    - The 29er is the way to go. I have been sold on that after riding a bit. The 29" wheel on the rear feel like a soft tail.
    - The components are not top of the line (except for the XTR), but just a notch under. That keep the price and weight low while providing great performance. I get a little upgraditis...but a resistable level.
    - The bike is efficient and I have been pleased with the power delivery being instant. I am able to ride things I could not ride before and everything else faster. The faster speeds have actually taken some adjusting.

    I find myself riding the bike more and more aggressively the more I have it. No qualms at this point. Good luck with your decision - I highly recommend the Ti 29er!

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