29er FS - design set at last- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    29er FS - design set at last

    After about a year and three different design tests: we have the Fantom 29er FS set
    and frame/bike is being ordered for 2011 production

    Test version below
    production model will have a curve spot in TT to allow lower standover


  2. #2
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    Very cool! Any idea when you can release the specs? I'm most interested in the geometry.

    And thanks for the advanced showing of the prototype.
    Last edited by motox72; 09-14-2010 at 02:02 PM.

  3. #3
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    I like, I like.

  4. #4
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    SWEEEET Nectar!


    I want one in the slate-gray color of my Fantom Pro
    "Fear not the ob-stackles in your path"

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    More details please . Is this something that B.D. designed ? Bushings or bearings ? Material ? Weight ? Pics of pivot please .

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    OMG!!! this is not a bike !! this is a monster

  7. #7
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    From the looks of the seat tube , this looks like a redesign of a hard tail , no ? I would also like to see pics of the pivot .

  8. #8
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    Awesome bike!

    I was going to ask about that open section of the seat tube. I know, I seen something similar before on a Yeti, but the open section was located on the top tube. I did a quick search for a Yeti photo..

    Last edited by Moto Rider; 09-14-2010 at 01:40 PM.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS
    From the looks of the seat tube , this looks like a redesign of a hard tail , no ? I would also like to see pics of the pivot .

    I’m not too sure about that. I was kind of thinking that same…but , the down tube looks designed to have the angle it does. The top tube shows no indication of being bent, It’s still linear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moto Rider
    I’m not too sure about that. I was kind of thinking that same…but , the down tube looks designed to have the angle it does. The top tube shows no indication of being bent, It’s still linear.



    I am speaking of the box section in the seat tube , if you look closely it simply looks like a work around to connect the two sections of seat tube that would otherwise not line up . This what makes me think that is a suspension rear triangle with an already existing front triangle that has been "made to work" . Whatever it is , IMHO it is not a very elegant solution . My two cents .

  11. #11
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    I agree with AZ MTNS... little odd looking and cant quite tell what it is. Wish they would dump this in a frame only fashion on bikeisland and I would be all over it. From the looks of it this will be the high end model as it seems to have carbon Ritchey stem/seatpost, Reba Team with Monarch rs, Vuelta XRP rims w/ Kenda Small Block 8 and Elixir brakes. Just what my untrained eye sees.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS
    I am speaking of the box section in the seat tube , if you look closely it simply looks like a work around to connect the two sections of seat tube that would otherwise not line up . This what makes me think that is a suspension rear triangle with an already existing front triangle that has been "made to work" . Whatever it is , IMHO it is not a very elegant solution . My two cents .

    Actually; the first proto type had bent seat tube as you sometimes see on other bikes; which ia good inexpensive solution

    We opted for a CNC junction box that stiffens up BB area and allows less flex on the frt der area amd BB

    in person; it looksd very nice too

    Like I said; we spent a year on customer design and testing on this frame

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash
    I agree with AZ MTNS... little odd looking and cant quite tell what it is. Wish they would dump this in a frame only fashion on bikeisland and I would be all over it. From the looks of it this will be the high end model as it seems to have carbon Ritchey stem/seatpost, Reba Team with Monarch rs, Vuelta XRP rims w/ Kenda Small Block 8 and Elixir brakes. Just what my untrained eye sees.

    We will do two complete bike levels:

    about $1995 [in 3 versions of Shimano XTR and Sram XO type -- 2 in 20-speed; one in 30-spd]

    about $1495 in a 30-speed SLX with recon type level

    object of course is best 29er FS performance at affordable price

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by motox72
    Very cool! Any idea when you can release the specs? I'm most interested in the geometry.

    And thanks for the advanced showing of the prototype.

    all specs and geo etc when we start pre-books; probably next March

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    Quote Originally Posted by HamfisT
    SWEEEET Nectar!


    I want one in the slate-gray color of my Fantom Pro

    Slate Gray will be one color we do
    and Gloss Black

    might do a polished

    I like Orange; but I am unsure how others would react to that LOL

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    Slate Gray will be one color we do
    and Gloss Black

    might do a polished

    I like Orange; but I am unsure how others would react to that LOL



    Orange ftw IMHO . Not flaming or trying to instigate but what customers did you run this design by ? IMHO a bent tube would be much more attractive and stiffening the BB could still be achieved . My two cents .


    EDIT : Just cant help but say that the interrupted seat tube just looks like ass , like the rest of it though . Peace .

  17. #17
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    P.S. can we get a pic of the pivot and a weight including shock and hardware ? Frame only ?

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    Looks nice! I've already bought a Tallboy and am very happy with it, but I'll make sure to steer people towards this ;-)

    Will the top tube length of the Fly 29'er carry over? That would be key for me if I were still looking.

  19. #19
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    15mm?
    Tapered HT?

    Orange is the best color for bikes.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS
    P.S. can we get a pic of the pivot and a weight including shock and hardware ? Frame only ?

    Of course, when the final production model is built this winter; I will get all data
    and tons of pictures

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    15mm?
    Tapered HT?

    Orange is the best color for bikes.
    Tapered HT - YES

    15mm - probably not; as this is a light trail bike for us

    I agree
    Orange is great!

  22. #22
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    Flat Orange...or Red!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    Tapered HT - YES

    15mm - probably not; as this is a light trail bike for us

    I agree
    Orange is great!
    That's too bad, the 15QR on my TALAS is a substantial improvement over the standard QR on the Reba that came with my Fly Ti or Revelation on my former ride. With the same hubs (Chris King ISO disk) it's a great improvement.

    Riding is light trail to XC race...

  24. #24
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    15 mm should be the standard for XC rides IMHO . It is such a leap in stiffness which is sorely needed especially with larger wheels . Nice to see that it will have a tapered head tube .

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    Man my life was so simple, now you have to complicate things. Old plan - Pay off ccards and save till bday in January. Buy DS Pro.

    Now I have to decide if I want to wait a few extra months and whether I want to be on a first-run bike. If you take preorders in march, any est. on when they'd start delivering?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS
    15 mm should be the standard for XC rides IMHO . It is such a leap in stiffness which is sorely needed especially with larger wheels . Nice to see that it will have a tapered head tube .
    I don't want to speak for mike but my guess is that it has more to do with the hubs vuelta can provide than the cost of the fork.

    Looks nice. 2 grand would be a steal.

  27. #27
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    Too bad on 15mm. In 2011 I would not want a bike without a through axle in front - it should be a standard from now on. Those extra few grams are some of the best weight you can add to a bike.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli
    I don't want to speak for mike but my guess is that it has more to do with the hubs vuelta can provide than the cost of the fork.

    Looks nice. 2 grand would be a steal.



    What , Vuelta can't produce a 15mm hub ? Everyone else does , I suspect Vuelta could provide a hub if their customers requested one . Keep up with the current technology or die a slow lingering death .

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS
    What , Vuelta can't produce a 15mm hub ? Everyone else does , I suspect Vuelta could provide a hub if their customers requested one . Keep up with the current technology or die a slow lingering death .
    I'm sure they can. Maybe mike already has 40,000 pairs of those wheels in a warehouse in taiwan that he has to get rid of. I don't know, I'm just saying its probably something other than what he said. I'm not badmouthing BD, but there are some pieces of component spec that he's probably getting rediculous deals on so he can hit price points with the bikes. Remember how long they shipped 29ers with 11-32 cassettes ?

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    Orange would be amazing, it would be nice to have colors other than black, white and polished Ti. I was going to spring for the Fly 29er Ti, but I think I'll wait till spring.

  31. #31
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    Do you know of a general cost for the frameset? I am about to pull the trigger on a frame for a winter season build but if this is going to only be a few hundred $$ for the frameset then I may just hold off!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli
    Remember how long they shipped 29ers with 11-32 cassettes ?
    There is nothing wrong with a 11-32 cassette.

    As far as a deal on 15mm - we do not know if can make assumption on the reason for this choice. What I do know is that at least some potential customers (like myself) will not care about a 50g weight difference when comparison shopping - but certainly would pay attention to the 15mm front.

    My current front runner for off-season purchase is Anthem X 29r. Also considering Kona Hei Hei 2-9. Both come with 15mm fork - one of the components I would rather have just as alike it from the start, as upgrading it is expensive. I would rather buy an new saddle to shave 50g.

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    Whats the travel on this thing? 100mm front and rear?

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    Another nod to include 15mm , deal breaker IMHO , should be standard equipment on XC ride . Seat tube looks funky though , hope that changes ..

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    I am a BD supporter, love my fantom sl pro. I was hoping to see hydro formed tubing, some sort of vpp, cva, dw, or maestro type suspension, and thru axle. I am kinda disappointed at first glimpse.

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    15mm front and orange I'd prepay now! This bike would have been spot on a year or so ago, I agree with others in saying 15mm is becoming standard, especially spring 2011. Even an optional build with a 15mm for a little more money would be a great. In for updates...

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by finny1999
    15mm front and orange I'd prepay now! This bike would have been spot on a year or so ago, I agree with others in saying 15mm is becoming standard, especially spring 2011. Even an optional build with a 15mm for a little more money would be a great. In for updates...

    Good idea
    I think I will do thru axle on top version
    and standard axle on 'entry' one

    that would make sense to me;
    but I may do thru axle on both

  38. #38
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    I'd like to see a longer swingarm for more travel, stability, and it would keep the front end down on climbs, and more travel in the front too, it seems bikes are built for small people, how about a bigger rider version..

  39. #39
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    What makes the 15mm the bees nees?

  40. #40
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    That looks good, maybe this will be the 'Voodoo Canzo' of 2011. I think the seat tube is fine as is, but I would totally agree with 15QR. I would not buy an FS without that or some improvement from the 9mm/QR standard.
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  41. #41
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    Mike,
    As a satified Ti Fly 29er hardtail owner, please consider:
    - Make frame sizing including top tube length, same as the Ti Fly 29er...and not shorter
    as with other Moto bikes.
    - Offer this dually in Ti....great combination of durability, lightness and ride quality.

    Lastly, a frameset would be a nice offering as well.
    Thanks for your consideration.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrice0118
    What makes the 15mm the bees nees?
    Stiff (quite noticable), easy to use, safer, and a very small weight penalty. Hopefully fork manufacturers will come up with a bolt-on (no QR handle) version of the axle, for even less weight penalty.

    Time for QR to disappear.

  43. #43
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    it's my opinion:

    1. why not straight seat tube+ direct mount front derailleur, without this cnc cube in middle seat tube? the frame with cnc cube is so strange...hydroformed it's ideal for this project but the costs will be higher than straight tubes... but is more beutiful


    2. another thing: thru axle ou qr15 option like niner rip9 please! another suggestion about axles its the dt swiss rws with 12mm.. I believe the Vuelta can made this setup

    3. is it tappered headtube?

    4. good room for 2.35 rear tires?

    5. when this bikes comes to Brazil?
    Last edited by ftajiri; 09-19-2010 at 08:12 AM.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ftajiri
    it's my opinion:

    1. why not straight seat tube+ direct mount front derailleur, without this cnc cube in middle seat tube? the frame with cnc cube is so strange...hydroformed it's ideal for this project but the costs will be higher than straight tubes... but is more beutiful
    I think Mike mentioned above that it is actually more expensive to make with a knuckle. Many bike use a similar feature to balance clearance for tires, chainstay length and steep effective seat tube angle for better climbing position. Personally, I like how it looks.

    Proprietory shock on Scott does not sound like a good idea.

  45. #45
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    I generally like the bike. I am wondering how deceiving the picture is, specifically regarding the seat tube 'cube'. It looks like 3 fairly thin rods CNCd in almost a spirol orientation to connect the top seat tube section to lower. I'm sure fatigue testing has been performed on this design, but it looks to my untrained eye like the weak point of the frame, not to mention a little funky looking.

    Are there any other frames that use this kind of Box method on the seat tube? If so, I'd like to see pictures.

    I would also like to see a Ti version as I can see that potentially being my next bike, though I'll admit that I will wait for the reviews of generation 1 of this bike to come out first. If people love it as much as they do the Fly Ti 29er, it will be a big hit!

    I LOVE my Fly Ti 29er. I ride it hard and aggressively 2x/ week and it always performs like a champ.
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  46. #46
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    I believe that gap in the seat tube is a mistake. Forget about the engineering for a moment. Think about customer perception. You'll have to explain and justify that gap to every customer who looks at the bike. The gap "looks" like a weakness, and thus it becomes an impediment that you need to work around for each sale that you make.

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    i don't talk about suspension system (the scott's pics not the best example for my explanation. ), but the form the seat tube is designed and located. i know about suspension action against seattube rear part... the sectionade seattube with cube/box is this form because trajectory of wheell, but i sugested something like this for front triangle with link points:



    pay attention on bottom bracket reinforcement, about this I'm talking, and put direct mount front derauleiur

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanGennick
    I believe that gap in the seat tube is a mistake. Forget about the engineering for a moment. Think about customer perception. You'll have to explain and justify that gap to every customer who looks at the bike. The gap "looks" like a weakness, and thus it becomes an impediment that you need to work around for each sale that you make.
    Completely agree. Mike, I hope you carefully consider the input you are receiving before you go to production. The lower seat tube construction is an aesthetic eye sore and will push buyers away including me. Even if a continuous seat tube is more costly, you will regain this in increased sales revenue. Incrementally adjust the price of the bike to reflect what it costs to make it beautiful. A 29er dually is sizable investment with many nice offerings now coming to the market and you don't want to release a bike with a cosmetic achilles heel.
    Respectfully, words from an engineer and Ti Fly 29er owner.

  49. #49
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    Just to reiterate my earlier post about the seat tube , another vote for "a more elegant solution" . The existing "cube" just look's like ass .

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtrider7
    Completely agree. Mike, I hope you carefully consider the input you are receiving before you go to production. The lower seat tube construction is an aesthetic eye sore and will push buyers away including me. Even if a continuous seat tube is more costly, you will regain this in increased sales revenue. Incrementally adjust the price of the bike to reflect what it costs to make it beautiful. A 29er dually is sizable investment with many nice offerings now coming to the market and you don't want to release a bike with a cosmetic achilles heel.
    Respectfully, words from an engineer and Ti Fly 29er owner.

    I appreciate you comments.

    Funny thing is - a continous seat tube is less money. The CNC transfer/contentor box is more more and work.

    I of course have the advanage of seeing it in person; and I really like it; Plus BB does feel a bit stiffer [but that could be in my head]

    I think I need better pictures of this frame; in order to get the feel across.

    Thanks for you support and your purchase

  51. #51
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    I'm curious if maybe there are other manufacturers using the box design in the seatpost and simply boxes it off for asthetic purpores???? If Mike or anyone for that matter has examples of bikes with a similar design please let us know.

    As someone else mentioned the box "looks" like a weakpoint. While i'm sure Mike did the testing many people may second guess their purchase due being unfamiliar with the design and therefore questioning it's reliablility. This may turn buyers away and decrease sales for what can potentially be a great bike at a great price.

    Is this going to be a 100mm travel bike?

  52. #52
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    I've bought 2 Fantoms over the past 3 years. One I ride the other I took stripped to build a racer X frame up.
    Was hoping to replace the Titus Racer X with your new full suspension.
    That bottom bracket junction is a deal killer.
    It might be the best design, but looks awkward and looks weak.
    Not a bike snob at all here, but seriously rethink that bottom bracket idea because it does not inspire confidence at all.

  53. #53
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    I can't believe you guys are making a big deal out of something that looks weak but was designed to be stronger and stiffer. Certainly that may not be the case, but I would trust the people who did the R&D more than how it appears to you -- especially if you're not an engineer.

  54. #54
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    Consumer perception > engineer design

    Many people forget this little fact and sell ugly superior products which fail to sell due to lack of consumer support.

  55. #55
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    I'd like to see closeups of the junction, but I'm in the "looks like a quick fix" crowd.


    I would gladly pay 50 or 60 bucks more for a frame with a gusseted or formed seat tube.
    "Fear not the ob-stackles in your path"

  56. #56
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    A properly bent tube , even hydro formed , would be a cheaper alternative and would more than likely sell a bunch more bikes . Two cents .

  57. #57
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    Maybe they can put a sticker around that hollow area

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by max621
    Maybe they can put a sticker around that hollow area
    Duct tape would be better.

    Edit: In all seriousness, it's probably stronger but I don't want to have to explain it to my friends when they ask what the hell is wrong with my bike.

  59. #59
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    Duct tape comes in beyatchin colors and patterns these days!


    I doubt the junction is just thin rods... Looks like a block machined natural aluminum.
    "Fear not the ob-stackles in your path"

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by finny1999
    I'm curious if maybe there are other manufacturers using the box design in the seatpost and simply boxes it off for asthetic purpores???? If Mike or anyone for that matter has examples of bikes with a similar design please let us know.

    As someone else mentioned the box "looks" like a weakpoint. While i'm sure Mike did the testing many people may second guess their purchase due being unfamiliar with the design and therefore questioning it's reliablility. This may turn buyers away and decrease sales for what can potentially be a great bike at a great price.

    Is this going to be a 100mm travel bike?

    This is a 4 by 4 bike --
    4" in front and 4" in rear

    I may have to rethink this seat tube design
    it works great
    it looks very nice in person

    but with so many people questioning this
    I may need to redesign it

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrice0118
    Duct tape would be better.

    Edit: In all seriousness, it's probably stronger but I don't want to have to explain it to my friends when they ask what the hell is wrong with my bike.

    I get it; it seems people would prefer something that looks 'normal'

    it is a CNCd item from a block of 6061; very expensive; works very well; but more work
    so I will probably use curved tube and increase spec where everyone can appreciate it
    that makes more sense

  62. #62
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    Thanks for listening and being open minded Mike. The feeling that voice of customer is important and heard is what makes Motobecane appealing to me.

    Consider posting a close-up shot of that seat tube feature. It will become clear to everyone what it looks like and will either confirm what you have been hearing or people will say "Wow, that does look like a great solution". Either way, you will go into the final design knowing what people want.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    I may have to rethink this seat tube design
    it works great
    it looks very nice in person

    but with so many people questioning this
    I may need to redesign it
    Can you post additional pics? Maybe the posted pic doesn't provide the seat tube the justice it deserves?

    I'm sure you don't want to go back to the drawing board after all the time it took to get to this point, but it seems like the increased costs of the seat post may be decreasing potential sales.

    This may been covered already, but why XTR and X0 for drivetrain over XT and X9? I would guess that people concerned with the higher end drivetrain would be the ones looking at frames in the 2k price range rather than bikes?

  64. #64
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    I'm one of the few people that think the seat tube looks cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    I get it; it seems people would prefer something that looks 'normal'

    it is a CNCd item from a block of 6061; very expensive; works very well; but more work
    so I will probably use curved tube and increase spec where everyone can appreciate it
    that makes more sense

    I think everyone would agree that they would like to see more pictures.

    Who knows, this design could become the 'norm'.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanGennick
    I believe that gap in the seat tube is a mistake. Forget about the engineering for a moment. Think about customer perception. You'll have to explain and justify that gap to every customer who looks at the bike. The gap "looks" like a weakness, and thus it becomes an impediment that you need to work around for each sale that you make.
    I would guess that with slick marketing this can be avoided - but slick marketing of technical features was never bikedirect's strong suit.

    As an engineer, I would not worry about this junction one bit.

    As far as perception - have not heard Ventana talking much about their similar looking seattube junctions - but then Ventana has an established reputation of making bombproof frames. Look at the BB area of DH-worthy La Bruja for example.



    Tha knuckle on seattube is probably the strongest point.

    Quote Originally Posted by odtexas
    I've bought 2 Fantoms over the past 3 years. One I ride the other I took stripped to build a racer X frame up.
    Was hoping to replace the Titus Racer X with your new full suspension.
    That bottom bracket junction is a deal killer.
    It might be the best design, but looks awkward and looks weak.
    Not a bike snob at all here, but seriously rethink that bottom bracket idea because it does not inspire confidence at all.
    Yeah, people indeed do not know what they are talking about - and it takes a glossy brochure to convince them otherwise. Alternative is a few years of education, but I guess that is harder to provide.

  67. #67
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    If this were on a test for Marketing 101, then surely the answer is obvious. You must know what the people want, and what they are willing to pay for it. BD will no doubt have the price right, but obviously from this thread the seat tube section is not what people want.

    It would be different if it were another company, but BD's consumer base is in the Internet and the consumers are talking now.

    Great business model too, free focus groups! Hahahahha

    Bryan d

    PS - very excited about this FS 29er.
    Just keep pedaling, don't stop pedaling.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    but with so many people questioning this
    I may need to redesign it
    That would be unfortunate - maybe not making a through hole will placate the doubters?

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_d
    , but obviously from this thread the seat tube section is not what people want.
    Speak for yourself. And people drool over frames like Ventana quoted above - I have no doubts that with just a few properly constructed words about this solution they will sell out everything they produce.

  70. #70
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    The appearance of the Ventana is a far cry from that of the BD piece . A more palatable solution is all that anyone is asking for , the original design IMHO is atrocious .

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS
    The appearance of the Ventana is a far cry from that of the BD piece . A more palatable solution is all that anyone is asking for , the original design IMHO is atrocious .
    True,

    Line break (seat tube to BB) is just too awkward on the BD while the Ventana clearly has no "break" in line when the eye follows the seat tube to BB.

    Curmy, imagine a down tube with the section like the BD, would you still feel the same. Then ask your self why?

    As previously mentioned before, the engineering might be sound but that means jack all if people do not want it.

    Design and engineering need to make love.

    Bryan d
    Just keep pedaling, don't stop pedaling.

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    The Ventana looks like crud as well.
    But it does look better than the Moto. The seat tube is out of alignment with the knub coming off the bottom bracket. Looks like someone took a saw to a front triangle and then shoved a knuckle in it.
    Shiny brochures and BS sells. Its a fact.
    No amount of math will ever change the human equation of want.
    No matter how good the bike is or how good it looks some people wouldn't buy it because of the name on the side of the bike.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by odtexas
    No matter how good the bike is or how good it looks some people wouldn't buy it because of the name on the side of the bike.
    What happens when you peel the name off the side of the bike?
    Just keep pedaling, don't stop pedaling.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS
    The appearance of the Ventana is a far cry from that of the BD piece . A more palatable solution is all that anyone is asking for , the original design IMHO is atrocious .
    It is a perfectly fine, and elegant engineering solution. If you do not get it - that is a marketing problem, not an engineering one.

    Too bad that part of the target audience for bikedirect's business model are teh interwebz opinionated blowhards

    Quote Originally Posted by odtexas
    Shiny brochures and BS sells. Its a fact.
    No amount of math will ever change the human equation of want.
    No matter how good the bike is or how good it looks some people wouldn't buy it because of the name on the side of the bike.
    The difference here is that it is not a BS solution.

    BS solutions are split seattubes to push shock through it - like Specialized did some time ago, and especially Tomac. You had to ride bowlegged on it.

    Another odd solution is a tiny stub for front derailler and seattube so steep that it moves saddle too much back when you raise it - like Knolly did.

    But, of course, when bikedirect come up with some actual engineering, everybody would sound off, like they know something.
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    It is a perfectly fine, and elegant engineering solution. If you do not get it - that is a marketing problem, not an engineering one.

    Too bad that part of the target audience for bikedirect's business model are teh interwebz opinionated blowhards



    The difference here is that it is not a BS solution.

    BS solutions are split seattubes to push shock through it - like Specialized did some time ago, and especially Tomac. You had to ride bowlegged on it.

    Another odd solution is a tiny stub for front derailler and seattube so steep that it moves saddle too much back when you raise it - like Knolly did.

    But, of course, when bikedirect come up with some actual engineering, everybody would sound off, like they know something.
    .


    There is no engineering in this , it is nothing more than a work around .If there was actually any engineering in it BD would not give it up so easily .

  76. #76
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    Engineering my ass , its nothing more than a cobbled together hack , semi solution . And a very poorly executed one at that .

  77. #77
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    You save alot of money, I like the Motobecane name, I've owned one since 1972, I should pay $1500 or $2000 more for a name,, LOL people are paying $4000+ for bikes, and don' t like the idea that I paid less for my bike,, not my problem, theirs, who is making all the extra money people pay on the bikes, I don't think its the LBS, probably middlemen, they keep riders in the name game and I'm stupid for buying a bike with Motobecane on the frame..LOL!!
    R&D? oh I should pay more for a bike to buy a racer a bike..LOL How much R&D does a TRAIL bike need??
    The price of riding a bicycle has gotten out of hand because people are crazy enough to pay insane prices for this stuff, when does it stop?
    The Harley-Davidson dealers used to have people paying way over MSRP and put on a waiting list for 5 years for a bike, thats what all MFGs would like to see happen to their products, well Harley doesn't have that going for them anymore. Time for the bicycle MFGs to come off their high horses too..LOL
    I'm on my way to the Triple Trail Challenge, have a good ride today I will.

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  78. #78
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    Mike posted to Finny 1999 above, he may have to rethink this seat post, yet you keep harping on it, looking for an opportunity to add some negativity seems to be your agenda on your posts, or did you have too much to drink tonight? LOL!!
    This bike is 5 or 6 months away from production, it looks like a great bike, I'm sure things will change, and Mike probably appreciates your negative comments to a degree, but it's getting old..
    Have a good ride today, I will !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by manabiker
    You save alot of money, I like the Motobecane name, I've owned one since 1972,

    2010 Motobecane Fantom Team
    2009 Motobecane Fantom Comp
    2005 Harley-Davidson Ultra Classic


    They are not even the same company , how well do really know Moto's ?

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS
    Engineering my ass , its nothing more than a cobbled together hack , semi solution . And a very poorly executed one at that .
    Are you an engineer? I will admit that it is not pretty. But it is funny how you can be told that this "solution" is more expensive, and provides more strength and stiffness, yet you want to claim it is a "cobbled together hack" simply because it is ugly. Ultimately what this means is that they are going to make a more elegant and pretty frame at the expense of strength and stiffness. Engineering is only concerned with results, not how pretty the solution was. Pretty is for the marketing guys to worry about, which is why this frame will ultimately be changed, not for engineering reasons. No matter how good a frame is, if its ugly it won't sell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    Are you an engineer? I will admit that it is not pretty. But it is funny how you can be told that this "solution" is more expensive, and provides more strength and stiffness, yet you want to claim it is a "cobbled together hack" simply because it is ugly. Ultimately what this means is that they are going to make a more elegant and pretty frame at the expense of strength and stiffness. Engineering is only concerned with results, not how pretty the solution was. Pretty is for the marketing guys to worry about, which is why this frame will ultimately be changed, not for engineering reasons. No matter how good a frame is, if its ugly it won't sell.



    You are assuming it was engineered . Because the seller said it was engineered does not mean it was . Looks like an economic decision to me , not a finite analysis decision .

  82. #82
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    The frame sort of reminds me about picking up women at a bar..........She may be the greatest in bed but if she is ugly as hell ya won't be taking her home!

    I do like it though.I do get stares because I ride a Moto so a few more because of the box seat tube won't make a difference.

    But on the other hand most people are concerned with form over function.Gots to be pretty!

  83. #83
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    No kidding..LOL!!! How well do you know people,,???? DOH!!!! do I have to explain every little thing so someone won't look for an oppertunity to make me look stupid???? LOL you will have to try much harder..I won't make it that easy!!! old men are wise!! I happen to be old..

  84. #84
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    So many speculations about the seat tube yet no one knows yet. At $2000, I only wish the Anthem x1 29 I'm eyeing cost so little.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    I get it; it seems people would prefer something that looks 'normal'

    it is a CNCd item from a block of 6061; very expensive; works very well; but more work
    so I will probably use curved tube and increase spec where everyone can appreciate it
    that makes more sense
    The good news is...the cube is expensive. That means you can replace it with a more conventional closed tube construction and:
    1. Not elevate the cost of the bike to the consumer or erode your profit margin.
    2. Make the frameset more traditionally appealing thereby appealing to broader demographic and thereby improved sales...this is a pretty informed focus group I would say.
    3. Not impair function. A more traditional closed sectioned tube joining the BB will not decrease stiffness or measurably increase weight....a cosmetically appealing workaround exists.

    Mike, thanks for your careful consideration as there are quite a few that look forward to a new Moto FS...me personally in Ti. No doubt you know there is a fine line between being leading edge and allienating traditional buyers. There are a lot of engineers here including me and if function can be achieved with the most aesthetic solution, that is the one that will sell the most. Your success is our success.
    Cheers.
    PS: Remember...plenty long top tube lengths....why the Ti Fly is a good seller among other reasons.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtrider7
    PS: Remember...plenty long top tube lengths....
    +1

  87. #87
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    Only 100mm F/R? Boo... another XC FS bike. Where's the high end trail bike? It would be sweet with a Reba 140, which would put the tapered head tube and maxle/thru axle front to good use. The much requested maxle is overkill for a 4" travel XC FS bike, IMO. Does the 100mm Reba even come with a tapered steerer?

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    I would think a clean sheet design would be more like the other 4" XC designs by Santa Cruz, Cannondale, Specialized and Scott with the rear shock in-line with the top tube.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    Actually; the first proto type had bent seat tube as you sometimes see on other bikes; which ia good inexpensive solution

    We opted for a CNC junction box that stiffens up BB area and allows less flex on the frt der area amd BB
    Ever thought about going Press-fit 30/BB30 for the purpose of stiffening up that area? FSA makes parts for that design too. Higher end road bikes use a similar sized shell, so I'm sure you're familiar with it.

    http://www.bb30standard.com/

    This is one new standard you can put on your bike at least, that has clear benefits with the only downside of possible high prices for compatible parts (but that's also the case with 10-spd, and you picked that up). All the other folks here seem to be rabid for new "trickle down tech" that the pros have used and wary of tech they've never seen before. I guess this isn't as glamorous as something more useful for more abusive riding styles, such as tapered head tube and thru axle up front. Why not ask for a thru axle in the back too or is it something people are wary of because they haven't heard much about it (Trek ABP Convert for example)? Let's hear someone in the know confirm whether or not Rock Shox Reba has an option for maxle and tapered steerer in 100mm (I thought it was exclusive to the 140mm).

    I've got nothing against the CNC box personally, but I don't care much for aesthetics as long as I know there's a good reason for it. I know how alu frames fail from fatigue... the box is less ugly than a bike that is broken at a potential weak point like that, which was worn out from the suspension action.

    Have you also considered a larger diameter seat tube? Say a 34.9 mm OD-31.6 mm ID seat tube? That should provide some beef for that area.
    Last edited by Varaxis; 09-20-2010 at 09:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    It is a perfectly fine, and elegant engineering solution. If you do not get it - that is a marketing problem, not an engineering one.

    Too bad that part of the target audience for bikedirect's business model are teh interwebz opinionated blowhards



    The difference here is that it is not a BS solution.

    BS solutions are split seattubes to push shock through it - like Specialized did some time ago, and especially Tomac. You had to ride bowlegged on it.

    Another odd solution is a tiny stub for front derailler and seattube so steep that it moves saddle too much back when you raise it - like Knolly did.

    But, of course, when bikedirect come up with some actual engineering, everybody would sound off, like they know something.
    .
    Others may but I am not disputing it works or is well engineered. Moto may have even done a CAD driven FEA with dynamic load analysis. The fact is many including me don't like how it looks which will affect sales. Marketing is irrelevant. You are in the minority as you say it either looks fine to you or form follows function. Reality is in this context an alternative elegant and functional design is available that is aesthetically pleasing as well. No reason for a controversial design from a cosmetic standpoint when something pretty and functional can be achieved for potentially less mfg. cost. A no brainer and why focus groups exist. Credit to Mike for placing a trial balloon of the design here which will bode well for both his company including the consumer...us.
    PS: one of the reasons for the success of the Ti Fly is its minimalist, elegant design. Simple and clean with no gimmicks. If Mike keeps the same minimalist and clean design for the upcoming Moto FS, they will sell a boat load of them for the same reason.
    Last edited by dirtrider7; 09-20-2010 at 09:40 AM.

  91. #91
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    Well, if BD had a marketing team, they could make that CNC box sound like like something amazing. They'd name it (ex. "Monster link") list all it does for the bike and contribute other features to the bike to it, saying it's all made possible due to it, make it a selling feature, and even patent it and trademark the name. That's what the big guys do...

    People can be pretty petty with how something so small is made into a big deal. Can't criticize anything else about it? I did the same thing before I bought a Moto, criticizing the cassette, crankset, headset... in the the end, it's still an unbeatable deal and I'd rag on the big names even more for having a crappy fork, wheelset, and brakes, things that matter more for ride quality.

    To me, this looks like a sophisticated way of solving a number of problems. Maintain a traditional front triangle geo, with consideration of top tube length and seat tube angle and traditional "knee over pedal" fit. That small bit of CNC is a lot better than a larger more intricate pivot point "tab" to reinforce the spot needed for optimal leverage on the shock. It still maintains simplicity, with an prime alternative being monocoque alu.
    Last edited by Varaxis; 09-20-2010 at 10:38 AM.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis
    Well, if BD had a marketing team, they could make that CNC box sound like like something amazing. They'd name it (ex. "Monster link") list all it does for the bike and contribute other features to the bike to it, saying it's all made possible due to it, make it a selling feature, and even patent it and trademark the name. That's what the big guys do...

    See GT
    "All GT full suspension bikes are designed around our patented Independent Drivetrain (ID) system."
    Been a few threads here on MTBR about trying to get replacement parts. PITA and all that and something about the European GTs don't use this design since the horst/specialized patent wasn't an issue over there.
    Just saying you can market it all you want. If it is ugly or doesn't work its not going to sell that well.
    Especially since most of us who buy Motos are the unwashed, uneducated, non-LBS supporting, bike whores who are ruining the industry by supporting crappy online bike stores.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    BS solutions are split seattubes to push shock through it - like Specialized did some time ago, and especially Tomac. You had to ride bowlegged on it.

    Another odd solution is a tiny stub for front derailler and seattube so steep that it moves saddle too much back when you raise it - like Knolly did.

    But, of course, when bikedirect come up with some actual engineering, everybody would sound off, like they know something.
    .
    Dude, you need to ease your rudder a bit. I have an MSME and I'm not extremely excited about the machined seat tube junction either. Wouldn't necessarily prevent me from buying one, but...would not be my first choice for solving the seat tube problem.

    Aesthetics matter, whether you want them to or not. Few engineers get to design things in a bubble no one will look at later.

    If it were me I'd consider just steepening the seat tube angle like Rocky Mountain is doing. STA is the least of concerns for rider position and geometry anyway.

  94. #94
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    The picture I have of the Motobecane in production (in my mind) is a bit similar to this Kona Hei Hei:



    A major difference is that I think Mike is going for axles for the frame pivots and he wants to allow full use of the seat tube for the seat post. A minor difference is how Mike opted to handle fork crown clearance with the formed downtube and stiffness in the rear triangle with the box shaped tubing and CNC yokes. With the pivot in front, I suppose he can get away with a smaller rocker arm too. Kind of interesting how it's being designed engineering-wise. I wonder if and how the Moto's design addresses issues with the 4-bar design which is known to have issues with pedal bob, squat, and brake jacking. Kona did some magic to their bikes to counter those issues fairly well and I don't think is was due to their magic link.
    Last edited by Varaxis; 09-21-2010 at 09:26 PM.

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    Whether the FS 29er comes with the CNC junction box or not is of no concern to me. What IS a concern is what is stronger and the correct choice from an engineering perspective. I think in general the BD frames look "traditional"; non-hydroformed tubing, normal 4-bar linkages on FS models, etc. But aside from some problems with the seat tube on some models, these frames have been bulletproof and err on the side of strength, sometimes at a cost of extra weight. I'd much rather have a strong frame to a "pretty" or "light" one, and BD seems to get this and makes it a bargain as well.
    "Got everything you need?"

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    I don't see anything inherently wrong with the CNC junction in the middle of the seat tube, but I also understand the concern that it will "look" like an engineering kludge due to the discontinuity in the tube. One might be able to avoid this perception by visually/physically tying the junction into either the pivot bearing or lower connector of the rear shock. That would give the junction a more functional/positive appearance.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by TXNavy
    STA is the least of concerns for rider position and geometry anyway.
    I assume you mean the physical angle - since the actual angle, measured from BB to the saddle is very much important - seated climbing in particular.

    As for the physical angle - when you use an adjustable seatpost, it is a concern, for example. Including the issue with sideloading seatpost bushings, and moving saddle too far back at full extension when you have sized frame reach for DH performance.

    As MSME you probably agree that there are no problems with this junction that solves front derailler attachment and clearance - and gives a larger range of front deraillers positions then a formed tube.

    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott
    There is no engineering in this , it is nothing more than a work around .If there was actually any engineering in it BD would not give it up so easily .
    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS
    Engineering my ass , its nothing more than a cobbled together hack , semi solution . And a very poorly executed one at that .
    When I have mentioned opinionated inerwebz blowhards I was referring to your posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    I assume you mean the physical angle - since the actual angle, measured from BB to the saddle is very much important - seated climbing in particular.

    As for the physical angle - when you use an adjustable seatpost, it is a concern, for example. Including the issue with sideloading seatpost bushings, and moving saddle too far back at full extension when you have sized frame reach for DH performance.

    As MSME you probably agree that there are no problems with this junction that solves front derailler attachment and clearance - and gives a larger range of front deraillers positions then a formed tube.




    When I have mentioned opinionated inerwebz blowhards I was referring to your posts.



    Typical , resort to personal attacks when losing an argument .

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott
    Typical , resort to personal attacks when losing an argument .
    Argument? I have not seen any argument presented here. Just incoherent rambling.

    Argument would contain some semblance of logical analysis. There was none whatsoever.

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    Mike from Bikes Direct Hates me!

    i never could spoke about seattube.... i do no about all controversal and changes your plans

    sorry Mike!

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    23" frame option? Pretty pretty please???

    From a sales perspective, I know you can't expect to move as many 23" as you can in the other sizes. On the other hand, I can guarantee that you'll have the only 23" FS frame anywhere near that price range.

    Every other FS 23" frame costs 2-3X the price of your entire bike. Performance seems to move their budget 23" AL hardtail, so my guess is there is a market for big budget frames.

    Did I say please? I'll pre-order!

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    I assume you mean the physical angle - since the actual angle, measured from BB to the saddle is very much important - seated climbing in particular.
    It's called the seat tube angle for a reason. ;-) It's never used in any convention to infer some kind of actual angle relative to the saddle. There is no colloquial equivalent for the seat tube length or angle in relative to, say, ETT.

    As for the physical angle - when you use an adjustable seatpost, it is a concern, for example. Including the issue with sideloading seatpost bushings, and moving saddle too far back at full extension when you have sized frame reach for DH performance.
    Many frame designers are finally realizing that STA is largely irrelevant because of the adjustable nature of the saddle and seat post, and the availability of offset posts. See Rocky Mountain's new Straight Up geometry, or road bikes the BH G4 moving to a steeper STA. Or Cervelo just flat out saying the only thing that matters for fit (not handling of course) is the relative position of the saddle, BB and bars - and calling a new convention "reach."

    Better than that, we can put a mathematical bound on this concern. My 34" inseam translates to a 31.5" BB axle to saddle top distance. Changing nothing means that the saddle is going to move half an inch one way or the other per degree of rotation.

    But of course, to achieve the exact same saddle position relative to the BB you would lower or raise the post as well as move it laterally on its rails. The actual change to the saddle to post interface would end up being around 1/3 of an inch. Or not much different.

    You could put an extra steep STA in, specify a 20 or 30mm set back post to make up for the two or three degrees away from "average" for people with long femurs and call it a day. You're hardly going to be overstressing any parts here.

    And the tremendous upside for a 29'er is that you can tuck in the rear wheel with shorter chain stays. Short chain stays are critical for a 29'er in my opinion. The Tallboy (which uses a curved seat tube) doesn't feel like a boat thanks to them.

    As MSME you probably agree that there are no problems with this junction that solves front derailler attachment and clearance - and gives a larger range of front deraillers positions then a formed tube.
    Maybe...maybe not. I don't think it really matters. I was somewhat annoyed that my Tallboy required a different derailleur type than I already had, but since that's maybe the cheapest part of the drive train to replace with a still great part ($50 for a new XT on eBay)...it doesn't matter much. I am extremely finicky about drive train performance (much moreso than my own pedal performance) and really can't tell the difference between a top or bottom swing. As in even with Yokozuna cable and housing sets cut carefully square at the ends with a Dremel, between various combinations of XT and XTR...I can't tell a difference. I also remember the days when SRAM only had one front derailleur model across price points, because they probably didn't think it mattered much either.

    As for whether there are "problems," I don't know, and neither would anyone at this point so long as they're not obvious. I can say it would "work." I would also say this is a point where it doesn't matter. Except for maybe Fisher Rigs (maybe) I've never heard of bikes routinely breaking in the middle of the seat tube outside of a manufacturing defect, like when Specialized had a bad run of Dolce heat tubes a few years ago. At this point, relatively far from the BB it's going to experience almost strictly compression and pure bending. Other bike frame tubes are going to experience much more interesting forces and moments, but not the seat tube.

    I am not sure that a machined section of stronger material plus welds like my 2006 Stumpjumper I can't seem to unload on eBay is somehow better or worse at that location than a conventional tube of some sort. But I am 99.9% sure it doesn't matter. You're probably not going to break either, and neither is going to contribute very much to things like BB stiffness or ride quality situated where they are.

    I'm sure due diligence was done in the engineering to make sure this thing isn't going to snap like a twig, but beyond that it's inclusion or deletion in the final product can't change important characteristics that I can see. It will however change the aesthetics, and that matters.

    While everyone is wanking about FEA and modeling and whatever they think was done here, consider the difference between car and motorcycle modeling. Cars are well understood dynamically, because the vehicle mass is far greater than the passengers and cargo, and they operate in a pretty specific envelope. Motorcycles are much, much harder...a sport bike is less than 400 pounds dry, leans way over, and the rider can be around half of that. And he moves. Despite zillions of dollars being dumped into modeling, many improvements such as allowing more lateral flex in swing arms are still found by rider impressions at the track.

    We're going beyond that seriously complex problem and talking about a 25-30lb mountain bike of various sizes being ridden by humans much heavier in an extremely wide performance envelope. (You know someone is going to ride this thing upside down eventually.) And let's face it, Honda has way more money for things like FEA than big companies like Giant or Specialized, even if we scale things between a CBR and an SL3.

    Oh, and whoever it was that thinks that engineering works in a bubble isolated from aesthetic concerns does not get a passing grade in systems engineering or other engineering management topics today. Even in defense where we're generally okay with ugly, we will pick the prettier candidate. Look at the number of customers saying that this is important to them. How do we define value and quality in 2010 again? Right...

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by TXNavy
    It's called the seat tube angle for a reason. ;-) It's never used in any convention to infer some kind of actual angle relative to the saddle. There is no colloquial equivalent for the seat tube length or angle in relative to, say, ETT.
    Yes, but just like with top tube, most time it is the effective length/angle is what important.

    Quote Originally Posted by TXNavy
    Many frame designers are finally realizing that STA is largely irrelevant because of the adjustable nature of the saddle and seat post, and the availability of offset posts. See Rocky Mountain's new Straight Up geometry, or road bikes the BH G4 moving to a steeper STA.
    I have concluded the exact opposite - designers realized that they can add stability to frames by adding a slacker head tube angle, and still get good climbing by moving the saddle forward.

    Ragley's designer (formerly of On One) posts here as "brent". His frames - like Blue Pig, seem to follow this philosophy - you should ask him.

    On a side note - I think BD should borrow his geometry for "trail" hardtails. Check the new 456 titanium (post Lynskey) frame from On One..

    Quote Originally Posted by TXNavy
    Look at the number of customers saying that this is important to them. How do we define value and quality in 2010 again? Right...
    As long as they remain your customers - nobody cares. I am sure that BD will sell out all they make with just some minimal marketing around an engineering solution that few of us may not perceive as esthetically pleasing.

  104. #104
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    box-fan

    Love the bike Mike... I have been following this forum for almost two years waiting for you to offer this bike. All I ask is that you PLEASE offer it with the 15mm "thru" axle and a 2x20 configuration. The box is fine by me (especially if you've tested it out and it's not a weak link in the frame construction). Heck, I don't even think it looks ugly. I rather like it actually.

    So... 15mm and 2x20.
    I will pre-order 2 of them (one for me and one for the gf).

    Thanks!!!

  105. #105
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    Motobecane TTT or t3 (Team Ti Twentyniner) :)

    Mike, very late to the discussion, but my two cents.
    1) Would love to pay whatever it takes to have them in titanium.(spec with WCS?)
    2) Love the APS (active pivot system) on the BMC fourstroke bike with NO pedal bob, even with racing uphill out of the saddle. Love the Rocky Mountain Element suspension (3D linkage) for the same no bob.
    3) Love the propedal rear shock
    4)Love a front remote lockout
    $3,000 and sub 27 lbs.
    Star Stevenson

  106. #106
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    Thanks again Mike for listing to your customers. please keep a open mind to everyones ideas. your never going to please 100% of us but we appreciate you listening to us. I've read most of the threads pertaining to the FS 29er and am eagerly awaiting the pre sale notice. I currently ride your Ti Team fly and have fallen in love with the Ti look and more importantly the feel of the metal/Ti alloy. Can you verify the model/alloy choices that are under development for the first wave coming in March? And yes I also vote for a solid tube. I hope the re-design won't take to much time. I would love to have this bike for the 2011 LT-100 race.

  107. #107
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    Anymore updates, pictures or component specs? This really has my interest piqued. Joe

  108. #108
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    I hope orange is still being planned. I want one of these! I also want a 24'' ETT. Make it an 18'' model. Perfect for a 6 footer like me.

    I'll buy that bike the day it is offered!
    60; it's the new 40!

  109. #109
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    +1 for Orange.

    Not sure if I'll get a FS, but will get a Moto if I do.

  110. #110
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    I wonder how many of the naysayers would have been masturbating if the PROTOTYPE pic said (INSERT NAME BRAND LABEL HERE) Instead of Motobecane.

    It would be nice to see the new FS with a variety of options, Different materials, frame only, frame/fork only, etc.
    may not be practical tho.

    I don't own a moto but its definitely on my very short list i've made for my new bike purchase.

  111. #111
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    I would very much like to see a frame/shock combination for around $500. The Salsa Big Mama was on clearance a while back for $500 with a Fox RP23, which was just a steal. I wish I could have afforded it at the time, because now they are up to over $1,000.

    Also, it would be nice to see a Tora/Ario/X-7 build around the $1,000 level and a Reba/Fox Float RL/XT build around $1500. And then if possible, a high end with Fox 32 F29/Fox RP23/XTR around the $2,000 price point. Judging from the other bike lineups, something like this should be possible. If they nail the frame I can see this being a very popular model.
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  112. #112
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    Need to swap that wimpy 160mm rotor up front for a 180/185mm one.
    We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking.

  113. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBrewing

    Also, it would be nice to see a Tora/Ario/X-7 build around the $1,000 level and a Reba/Fox Float RL/XT build around $1500. And then if possible, a high end with Fox 32 F29/Fox RP23/XTR around the $2,000 price point. Judging from the other bike lineups, something like this should be possible. If they nail the frame I can see this being a very popular model.

    I couldn't agree more. As a casual rider I would love to see a full suspension 29er with decent components between that $1000-$1500 price point. That would make this bike a huge reality for me. And I believe there is a x10 system available in the X7, as a trail rider who almost only uses the middle ring I'd love to see a 2x as opposed to a 3x, but whatever would make that price a reality would be perfectly welcome, and drooled over

  114. #114
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    I would also like to see a frame/shock only option.

  115. #115
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    Im in the market for a fs 29er frame/shock for the 2011 season and this frame would be PERFECT! any updates on design or production of these bikes?

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    Thank you for the open discussion

    I was very impressed with how well Mike listened to the concerns of all postings.
    I might suggest asking Santa Cruz for data on how well the orange Tall Boy sold compared to the gray.

    I would love to see the next version of the bike so I can print it and hang it on the Christmas tree. I have permission for a full suspension 29er and now you've made an excellent product affordable.

    Thanks

  117. #117
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    I like the direction of the proposed Bikesdirect 29er FS bike. Would like to see it in Ti or carbon even more... or as an alum only frame/fork option. Been also looking at the Canzo and it's similarities with the proposed design. Will wait and see in early 2011!
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  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked
    I wonder how many of the naysayers would have been masturbating if the PROTOTYPE pic said (INSERT NAME BRAND LABEL HERE) Instead of Motobecane.
    That would have been me, and I'm not even a naysayer.

  119. #119
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    I really like the looks. I would really like to have one. I think every thing looks sweet. My recomendation for the production bike is to leave off the silly graphics like "trail tuned power stay". That is the only complaint I can find on my current Phantom Pro 29er....and something as stupid as that crawls all over me for some reason....but I guess that says what a value the bike really is if all I can gripe about is the sticker on it

  120. #120
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    Took another look at the suspension linkage, trying to predict what kind of shock rate it has. At first glance, it looks like the first 1/3 of the travel is made to be very stiff and the mid stroke very soft and a bit more stiffness in the end of the stroke. Matched up to that small can air shock, I see it sort of makes the air shock, normally highly progressive, have more of a linear feel and more bottom out resistance. I can forsee issues though in regards to people wanting to set up "proper" sag, trying to get 30% and to improve small bump compliance. Going lower is going to cause issues with blowing through midstroke, bottoming out, and bobbing, just because the rider wants sag and small bump compliance. Also will cause issues with people swapping out the rear shock to a "better model" like the Manitou ISX or whatever.

    Have you guys considered moving the linkage point on the seat tube up higher a bit? 5-10mm there would make a significant difference. Asymmetric chainstays would be another plus that may save some weight. I'm no expert, but that's just how I see things. I wonder if you've had similar comments during prototyping.

    Also, what kind of BB shell and chainstay length have you guys decided on? Press-fit BB92, Press-fit BB30, 73mm? Is there a lot of clearance between the chainstay and chainrings to avoid chainsuck issues (one of my main beefs with the Ti 29er frame)? I'm not a fan of the current external bb cups on 73mm shells. They don't last as long and don't spin as freely--my ceramic GXP SRAM BB only gets 6 spins, while my 5 year old Octalink (never serviced) spins over a dozen times. I do notice a difference in stiffness, but that's also cause it's an XX crank vs a Deore crank.

    I'd like to see updated pics, especially the one of a small frame with the sloped top tube. Almost didn't read the note about this being a proto without sloped top tube and was worried about standover.
    Last edited by Varaxis; 01-08-2011 at 04:27 PM.

  121. #121
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    Mike, what does the final design of the MOTO FS 29er look like?

    I am getting back into mountain biking after 10 years of abstinence. I have followed this forum for a while. What impresses me most are:

    A) quality contributions from a diverse crowd that addresses engineering, marketing, and sales aspects.

    Being an engineer from Germany that works in MFG in the US, I can appreciate all of the contributions that are kept clean and focus on the topic at hand.

    B) the forums ability to educate. I still have to look up some of the technical terminology that is being used. That challenges me and improves my game.

    C) the contributions from Mike at BD. It's fantastic that you interface directly with your customers in this forum. You seem to be knee-deep involved from R&D through sales and customer support at BD. No idea how you can do that, but it's awesome. That you know of the added value for your business by contributing design specs to the discussion is invaluable.

    Here are my questions: I will buy a FS 29er this year and am interested in what your final bike frame for the MOTO looks like. With your frame probably in production at this point, what did the construction issue design end up being? Especially the controversy regarding the seat tube "box" is what I am interested in, and also the colors that will be offered on the higher end models.

    When will the bike be available for pre-order and most importantly, when can you ship product?

    Thanks in advance for any information/pictures you can release at this point.
    Last edited by Fahrvergnuegen; 01-15-2011 at 02:33 PM.

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    Tapered HT - YES

    15mm - probably not; as this is a light trail bike for us

    I agree
    Orange is great!
    What does "light trail bike" mean? Is this going to be similar to the HiFi Pro 29er and the Epic 29er?
    I road a Superfly 100 and it handled well trail riding (no monster obstacles) and assume this ride may be similar w/o the graphite frame.
    My concern was "light trail" and hoped it didn't mean it was unable to handle the normal abuse of general trail riding.

    Thanks

  123. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnburn
    What does "light trail bike" mean? Is this going to be similar to the HiFi Pro 29er and the Epic 29er?
    I road a Superfly 100 and it handled well trail riding (no monster obstacles) and assume this ride may be similar w/o the graphite frame.
    My concern was "light trail" and hoped it didn't mean it was unable to handle the normal abuse of general trail riding.

    Thanks
    It's just the naming convention for travel on a FS bike (considering 26" wheels): XC 4" or less, Trail 5", AM 6", Freeride 7", DH 8" or more. Or XC less than 120mm, Trail 120-140mm, AM 140-160mm, FR 160-180mm, DH 180mm or more. As travel increases, the designers often beef up the frame to allow you to make use of it. If someone designed their frame as a light AM frame, it may simply not be as beefed up as much compared to other AM frames, to appeal to the XC/trail crowd moving up a category, a rider wanting extra cush for the same trails they currently ride, a lighter weight rider wanting to ride gnarlier stuff, or a weight conscious rider who would trade off durability for lightness. A light 29er trail frame would be similar, maybe appealing to the weight conscious XC riders who want a 29er and consider weight to be a significant factor in their buying decision.

    Example illustration, stolen from the Turner bikes website, which likely highlights the same category this bike is designed for:

    29er wheels give the performance of a bike with a bit more travel, so the 100mm on this may feel like a 5" trail bike, but they're spec'ing lightweight parts on it so you can ride it fast in XC conditions. It may be tough enough to handle some more rugged trails that aren't commonly ridden, but it's not recommended or targeted for such trails. It's really meant for well ridden trails. It's hard to generalize though, with terrain characteristics varying throughout the world. Probably better just pick a bike that everyone else seems to be riding in that area, as an easy trail in the Hudson Valley may be considered very technical to a SoCal rider.

    As an example, the Anthem X 29er is another 100mm 29er and has 15QR and was ridden to victory in a pro Super D race at Sea Otter and overall in Downieville (crushing the competition in the XC/climbing portion). The competition rode 5-6" travel bikes. I think the Downieville DH winner was on a SC Nomad (6") and the runner up for overall was on a 5" bike (Trance X?). Since the Anthem X 29er had a 15QR, it gave the rider the confidence that it would be able to ride such courses well, which is why people are asking for it, but this bike is being designed for lighter duty apparently.

    "Normal abuse" varies greatly. Some people really push their bikes and rely on momentum to carry them through rough sections, though some people on lighter bikes carefully pick their line and unweight their bike accordingly to try and float over obstacles. Some hit jumps which are very smooth and easy and drops with perfect transitions and some just throw their bike over anything that might get them air and worry about the landing after the fact. The bike typically "tells you" how fast and hard it likes to go, with flex, bouncing around like a pinball, and other signs of control loss. The less the bike can handle, the more the rider has to make up for it to ride at a specific performance level.

    It's no fun riding a heavy bike up a mtn, so it's common to go as light as possible. Lots of designs shave weight and increase stiffness with each generation, but I have a feeling that this one will be getting heavier. That's just coming from my experience riding a Motobecane Fly Ti 29er HT and its component spec--with a much beefier wheelset, it feels fairly solid now. My FS bike's rear end is tons stiffer, but the constrast of its front being flexy kind of bugs me, while the flexy rear of the Ti hardtail and its flexy front are balanced enough to not really bug me.
    Last edited by Varaxis; 01-15-2011 at 08:23 PM.

  124. #124
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    Thank you

    That was excellent.
    Thank you for the definitions and the details.
    Now we just need to wait for the new bike to show up.

  125. #125
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    Mike,
    I have been waiting for this very bike from you guys. I have come close to buying one of the other bigger name FS 29'ers out there for the last 6months but now that you are soo close to getting this to production I am determined to nurse my old ride a little longer.

    I disagree with all the above posts hating on the CNC box. True it doesn't look good but if it makes the bike stronger and lighter then do it! In the end many (myself) of us make our purchases based off of rider reviews from forums like this not just the picture on a website. I want something that will hold up to abuse.

    After looking at the pics why not just elongate the "box" a little so that it follows the ST line a little better? This may cost more as the CNC section would be larger but it would 'look' better. Personally I'm a huge fan of the CNC parts on bikes coming out like the Voodoo posted above.

    Also please do the 15mm!

    Thanks!

  126. #126
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    Please, please, please, please do this bike in "polished" and use a 15mm front axle for any model offered. By the way, please do the top model in POLISHED! If you're talking around 2 grand for a FS 29er with the build previously mentioned...sign me up. Here it is: XL polished 20spd (SRAM or Shimano). Can I submit a preorder before the preorders are offered? Any news on release or actual preorder date? Time is slow...

  127. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by titusquasi
    Please, please, please, please do this bike in "polished" and use a 15mm front axle for any model offered. By the way, please do the top model in POLISHED! If you're talking around 2 grand for a FS 29er with the build previously mentioned...sign me up. Here it is: XL polished 20spd (SRAM or Shimano). Can I submit a preorder before the preorders are offered? Any news on release or actual preorder date? Time is slow...

    There will be 5 spec levels; top ones in Polished

    Bikes will go on presale in June and land in July

    Pre-book prices from $1295 to $1999
    top versions use 15mm

    I think everyone will be happy with these

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    Any pics ? Does it have the Moose Knuckle in the seat tube ?

  129. #129
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    Any idea how the $1300 model might be spec'd?

    I'd be extremely interested in trying a FS 29er in that price range.

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    There will be 5 spec levels; top ones in Polished

    Bikes will go on presale in June and land in July

    Pre-book prices from $1295 to $1999
    top versions use 15mm

    I think everyone will be happy with these

    Forgot to ask, what sizes will be available? Will there be an XL?

  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by titusquasi
    Forgot to ask, what sizes will be available? Will there be an XL?

    I am sorry
    There will be no size as large as that

    will be more like the normal S, M, and L sizing

  132. #132
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    Sadly, as a tall guy making due on a size L Motobecane, I will most likely look elsewhere on my next bike purchase. This is America, not Asia, and it's dissapointing Moto ignores the tall rider in their sizing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott
    Any pics ? Does it have the Moose Knuckle in the seat tube ?
    I'd like to see the new design as well...

    Need to decide soon whether i'm going to spring for a purchase at the local bike show in march or hold off.

  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    I am sorry
    There will be no size as large as that

    will be more like the normal S, M, and L sizing

    No problem if a L has a 22" ST and around 26" ETT. Probably not?
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  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starkonian
    Sadly, as a tall guy making due on a size L Motobecane, I will most likely look elsewhere on my next bike purchase. This is America, not Asia, and it's dissapointing Moto ignores the tall rider in their sizing.
    How tall are you? I'm 6' 4" with 36" inseam and ride a Large Fly Ti 29er and the fit couldn't be better. Is 26" sizing that different?
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  136. #136
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    No XL , that is going to leave a bunch of big guy's out .

  137. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    There will be 5 spec levels; top ones in Polished

    Bikes will go on presale in June and land in July

    Pre-book prices from $1295 to $1999
    top versions use 15mm

    I think everyone will be happy with these
    Thanks, Mike. I, for one, am very happy and looking forward to ordering a polished medium with a 2x10 XO Group.

    And thanks for staying involved with this site. Its nice to see builders listening to the folks out there.

    Cheers,

    Joe

    PS. Not to whine, but I wish the top level bikes were in that cool apple green on the Tracer 29er.
    Last edited by JBull_64; 02-10-2011 at 03:16 AM.

  138. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    This is a 4 by 4 bike --
    4" in front and 4" in rear

    I may have to rethink this seat tube design
    it works great
    it looks very nice in person

    but with so many people questioning this
    I may need to redesign it
    I wouldn't change the ST design based on a few "shoot from the hip" opinions that a few people are gathering from looking at a single photo. I especially wouldn't change it if it offers a performance advantage! You are gonna sell these faster than you can get them in regardless of which route you take!

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    Agreed. They are going to sell out no matter what the ST design looks like. HOWEVER, I simply want to know which design BD went with. Mike, c'mon, let us know which design you went with on the ST. Thanks in advance.
    treat earth as if your life depends upon it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starkonian
    Sadly, as a tall guy making due on a size L Motobecane, I will most likely look elsewhere on my next bike purchase. This is America, not Asia, and it's dissapointing Moto ignores the tall rider in their sizing.

    Actually, Motobecane has more tall bike options than most companies
    there are road and CX bikes and touring bikes in 64cm
    there are mountain and comfort bikes in 24" frames
    but it is hard to do every model and/or type in a super tall frame [or a super short frame for that matter]


    plus 29ers already require special packing with both wheels off in many cases to get under UPS limits - super tall 29ers would require two box packing or shipping via motor freight - a whole new set of issues


    this is a case of picking your battles; beleive me I understand and try to address as much as possable the issues of very small and very large riders

  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fahrvergnuegen
    Agreed. They are going to sell out no matter what the ST design looks like. HOWEVER, I simply want to know which design BD went with. Mike, c'mon, let us know which design you went with on the ST. Thanks in advance.

    we are using a curve ST
    and I think the entire package looks great

    we will post pictures and prebook in late spring
    I think people will be excited and that they will sell out

  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starkonian
    Sadly, as a tall guy making due on a size L Motobecane, I will most likely look elsewhere on my next bike purchase. This is America, not Asia, and it's dissapointing Moto ignores the tall rider in their sizing.
    I think a lot of people are putting a lot of stock in this bike when maybe they shouldn't. Motobecane is by no stretch the end all of bicycles of any genre. I thought Moto put out a great value with the Ti Fly 29er hardtail and why I bought the frameset...but...that is not to say their first foray into dual suspension 29ers will be as effective. I believe with the added complexity of a dually to get just the right level of performance takes tremendous R&D.
    So...for those considering a 29er dually, look at the myriad of other options out there.
    Hey maybe Moto's new dually maybe OK...probably not for real tall guys and I get it as I ride a 130mm stem on size Large Fly so if taller than me at 6'1", I believe one needs a XL.
    But don't sweat it. Not every bike mfr makes a great bike across the board. The new dually maybe decent but I would wait for others to own it and do your beta testing based upon the business model of Moto in particular. Will finish and say I still love my Ti Fly 29er hardtail but keep in mind the geometry of that bike is cloned verbatim from Gary Fisher's hardtail therefore was low risk. If the new dually isn't mimicked which may not be permissible due to potential patent infringement, without exhaustive R&D that Moto can't support because of their business model, much greater probability their new dually won't be as good a bike. Conjecture only and TBD of course.

  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtrider7
    I think a lot of people are putting a lot of stock in this bike when maybe they shouldn't. Motobecane is by no stretch the end all of bicycles of any genre. I thought Moto put out a great value with the Ti Fly 29er hardtail and why I bought the frameset...but...that is not to say their first foray into dual suspension 29ers will be as effective. I believe with the added complexity of a dually to get just the right level of performance takes tremendous R&D.
    So...for those considering a 29er dually, look at the myriad of other options out there.
    Hey maybe Moto's new dually maybe OK...probably not for real tall guys and I get it as I ride a 130mm stem on size Large Fly so if taller than me at 6'1", I believe one needs a XL.
    But don't sweat it. Not every bike mfr makes a great bike across the board. The new dually maybe decent but I would wait for others to own it and do your beta testing based upon the business model of Moto in particular. Will finish and say I still love my Ti Fly 29er hardtail but keep in mind the geometry of that bike is cloned verbatim from Gary Fisher's hardtail therefore was low risk. If the new dually isn't mimicked which may not be permissible due to potential patent infringement, without exhaustive R&D that Moto can't support because of their business model, much greater probability their new dually won't be as good a bike. Conjecture only and TBD of course.

    I do understand your points
    However, we spent over a year and a half on this project and I feel it will be very well received. Our testers have loved the design but every cyclist has their on taste; we are expecting people will be shocked by what they get. And actually I am not interested in any highend bike that does not shock buyers in value and performance.

    By this time next year; lots of customers and magazines will have had a chance to comment on our work - I look forward to that

  144. #144
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    Geo on the Large size ? Effective top tube length is primary interest . Any pics ? Thanks .

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS
    Geo on the Large size ? Effective top tube length is primary interest . Any pics ? Thanks .

    No pictures yet to be posted on final product; sorry

    Large size is 20.5"; eff TT of 615; HT angle 70; ST angle 74

  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    No pictures yet to be posted on final product; sorry

    Large size is 20.5"; eff TT of 615; HT angle 70; ST angle 74
    I wrote what I wrote about round peg into a square hole for others to consider because it really isn't fair to come here and criticize your best efforts. But whoever is in charge of your geometry and for example decided to not offer a XL when your competion offers XXL and...your biggest offering is a horizontally short version of an industry std L (conventional size L tt = 625mm w/ 73 deg sta) in particular with 74 deg sta,,,really needs another career. The same dynamic applies to your 26" Ti Fly bike with ridiculously short top tubes throughout the range of sizes. At 6'1" I can't even ride the XL version of the Ti Fly 26er because the bike has too tight a cockpit. Your XL in your Ti 26" hardtail has a shorter tt than any of the big bicycle makers...bad decision.
    When you stuck to the script of Gary Fisher to create your Ti Fly 29er, you make one hell of a bike. When you inexplicably deviate away from industry std, well, thats where large companies with copious R&D get it right...in particular with respect to geometry. In the case of geometry, I don't think it take copious R&D, just need a smart bicycle guy calling the shots. Your manufacturing seems top rate as no doubt you make your bikes the same place they do.
    Good Luck Mike.
    Last edited by dirtrider7; 02-10-2011 at 01:08 PM.

  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtrider7
    I wrote what I wrote about round peg into a square hole for others to consider because it really isn't fair to come here and criticize your best efforts. But whoever is in charge of your geometry and for example decided to not offer a XL in essentially a horizontally short version of Large as you biggest bike for your new dually..with 74 deg sta really needs another career. The same dynamic applies to your 26" Ti Fly bike with ridiculously short top tubes throughout the range of sizes. At 6'1" I can't even ride the XL version of the Ti Fly 26er because the bike has too tight a cockpit.
    When you stuck to the script of Gary Fisher to create your Ti Fly 29er, you make one hell of a bike. When you inexplicably deviate away from industry std, well, thats where large companies with copious R&D get it right...in particular with respect to geometry. Your manufacturing seems top rate as no doubt you make your bikes they same place they do.
    Good Luck.
    You're critiquing a bike which isn't even available yet!

    My Giant Anthem X 29 has the exact same ETT as the Moto 29.
    STA on the Anthem is 73. The Moto is 74. I guess Giant R&D need to do some homework to come up with numbers to satisfy you.

  148. #148
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    ^^^ This. I was just going to say that the 19" HiFi has a ETT of 617. and the 21" is 630mm. It's just 0.6 inches different, and at least "in the ballpark" for a 20.5" frame. I do agree that BD is going to lose some sales by not having a 22-23" frame for the big guys, and for the kind-of big guys that like a more stretched out cockpit.

    The Superfly has the same ETT, and the STA is 73.6. Seems like it's a pretty close, but like all first attempts they will likely need to adjust based on rider/customer input (whether that input is right or wrong).
    "Got everything you need?"

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    Wow that's a tiny large. I would think most people over 6' would be cramped with that short of a ett. It's a shame that your finally offering a full suspension 29er that leaves all the big guys out...Good Luck.

  150. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by finny1999
    Wow that's a tiny large. I would think most people over 6' would be cramped with that short of a ett. It's a shame that your finally offering a full suspension 29er that leaves all the big guys out...Good Luck.

    I think there is no question that we may need to add an XL [which would be 22" or 22.5"]
    and come up with a new method for packing [as standard packing on an XL version could only ship LTL freight - which is a real pain on single bike shipments]

    You may notice; we sell no tandems; even though we get more requests for well spec'd high dollar tandems than we do for even 29er FS -- and I have 2 factories that are setup and ready to sell us super nice road & mtb type tandems - but same issue - all packing exceeds UPS and FedEx limits and bikes must go LTL. And LTL to residental locations can be tricky -- just one of those little issues that can make decisions less easy than they might seem. [bikes that are hard to find in LBS are good for us; so tandems might be great]

    Right now we get 29ers from 4 factories; two have done 2 wheel off packing successfully; the other two who make most the high priced 29ers are still working on 'developing' packing of that type of real big 29er. Once I get everything straight on all fronts I am sure I can do some super large 29ers in HT and FS - still will be hard to figure out tandems however.

  151. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    No pictures yet to be posted on final product; sorry

    Large size is 20.5"; eff TT of 615; HT angle 70; ST angle 74


    Large size is pretty generous in the TT , should fit many guy's up to about 6'2" depending on inseam I would think . Thanks for the reply .

  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS
    Large size is pretty generous in the TT , should fit many guy's up to about 6'2" depending on inseam I would think . Thanks for the reply .
    Maybe guys who like to ride like Mary Poppins. Lance Armstrong is 5'10" on a good day and rides a Trek dually with 625mm top tube and 120mm stem with 73 deg sta.
    Even he won't fit this Moto size Large which is inexplicably a shorter Large than the Ti Fly with 622mm top tube and 72.5 deg sta.

  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtrider7
    Maybe guys who like to ride like Mary Poppins. Lance Armstrong is 5'10" on a good day and rides a Trek dually with 625mm top tube and 120mm stem with 73 deg sta.
    Even he won't fit this Moto size Large which is inexplicably a shorter Large than the Ti Fly with 622mm top tube and 72.5 deg sta.
    So what...i guess he likes to ride in a different position than I. Not to mention not everyone with the same height has the same proportions. I'm over 5'-10" and ride a medium SC Blur LTC...top tube WAY smaller than Lance's 625...oh and I use an 80mm stem. Sure the STA and HTA may be a little different, but no matter, point being all people ride differently. So, we get it, you think it's too small, but many other's think Moto's sizing will be fine. They can buy the bike, you can pass it up, simple as that.

  154. #154
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    Lance who ?

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  156. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus
    You're critiquing a bike which isn't even available yet!

    My Giant Anthem X 29 has the exact same ETT as the Moto 29.
    STA on the Anthem is 73. The Moto is 74. I guess Giant R&D need to do some homework to come up with numbers to satisfy you.
    You are right...maybe I shouldn't have spoken up. This geometry doesn't work for me but it very well may work for you and others. I can't ride a 74 deg sta with my long femurs.
    The Anthem is one hell of a bike and if I rode one, would be a XL. Yes I do like to ride stretched out and have long arms.
    No offence and peace out of this thread.

  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalare
    So what...i guess he likes to ride in a different position than I. Not to mention not everyone with the same height has the same proportions. I'm over 5'-10" and ride a medium SC Blur LTC...top tube WAY smaller than Lance's 625...oh and I use an 80mm stem. Sure the STA and HTA may be a little different, but no matter, point being all people ride differently. So, we get it, you think it's too small, but many other's think Moto's sizing will be fine. They can buy the bike, you can pass it up, simple as that.
    You are right. I probably shouldn't have spoken up. We each are proportioned differently and therefore there is no universal geoemetry that works for each of us. Likely Moto will bring in a XL over time if sales are good for this bike.
    Cheers and no offense.

  158. #158
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    Thank you for filling us in

    Thanks for all the updates.
    You do a great job of receiving critiques and trying to make it work.
    I really appreciate hearing about how all the side issues (packing, etc) impact your decisions.
    Talked to LBS yesterday and was told that due to the falling dollar their prices on major brand bikes will soon be going up.
    Are you fighting the same issue?

  159. #159
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    S & S couplings work great on a friend of mines Tandem.

    This isn't his bike, but you get the idea.



    Looking forward to seeing geometry and pictures of the new bike.

  160. #160
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    Any updates? I sold one of my bikes for this bike and I am waiting to hit "order"...

  161. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnburn
    Thanks for all the updates.
    You do a great job of receiving critiques and trying to make it work.
    I really appreciate hearing about how all the side issues (packing, etc) impact your decisions.
    Talked to LBS yesterday and was told that due to the falling dollar their prices on major brand bikes will soon be going up.
    Are you fighting the same issue?

    Everyone is fighting price increases
    situation is very hard

    USD falling
    floods and demand driving up rubber & steel
    increased oil prices are driving up ocean freight
    workers in Asia are getting big increases in wages

    Trek, Fuji, specialized, electra, felt and about everyone have increased prices
    and all factories will deal with are increasing prices

    Very hard to keep prices down; as the entire business is fairly low margin to start with

    I think we will all see higher food, electronics, clothing, gas, etc prices during this year
    I wish it were not that way; but I do not see how it can be avoided

  162. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by odtexas
    S & S couplings work great on a friend of mines Tandem.

    This isn't his bike, but you get the idea.



    Looking forward to seeing geometry and pictures of the new bike.

    this is a good option; but expensive
    I have just not gotten around to this yet

    thanks

  163. #163
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    Hey Mike, I love my Outcast 29er, but I was wondering if BD ever thought of building/marketing a DJ/urban bike? Tell me what you think.

  164. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected]
    Hey Mike, I love my Outcast 29er, but I was wondering if BD ever thought of building/marketing a DJ/urban bike? Tell me what you think.

    I am actually thinking about that now
    please post which you like best of bikes available today

  165. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtrider7
    You are right...maybe I shouldn't have spoken up. This geometry doesn't work for me but it very well may work for you and others. I can't ride a 74 deg sta with my long femurs.
    The Anthem is one hell of a bike and if I rode one, would be a XL. Yes I do like to ride stretched out and have long arms.
    No offence and peace out of this thread.
    x2. Tall guy like myself, 6'5", the short cockpit makes for a scary ride on the steep decents I see regularly in the Santa Cruz mountains. It's tough to keep my upper mass low enough because I'm not sitting in the bike but rather perched above it. I suppose a tall rider on tamer altitude trails might not have an issue.
    When I'm not windsurfing, I'm mountain biking

  166. #166
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    I'd like to see a monstercross bike with a 1x9 / 1x10 set up.

  167. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeGrazing
    I'd like to see a monstercross bike with a 1x9 / 1x10 set up.

    4 monstercross in the works now
    1 triple and 3 doubles
    but I agree that a 1x10 makes a lot of sense
    and after our first run on monstercross; it would be easy to add a single cr one

    thanks

  168. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    4 monstercross in the works now
    1 triple and 3 doubles
    but I agree that a 1x10 makes a lot of sense
    and after our first run on monstercross; it would be easy to add a single cr one

    thanks


    Any teaser pics ? Fender mounts ? Disc brakes ? Your going to sell a bunch of these I predict . IMHO a taller head tube and sloping top tube would be cool , CX style cable routing would be cool .

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    Well Mike, Haro Steel Reserve, Specialized P1, Mongoose Ritual, Eastern DJ bikes are good ones. Dunno if that will help. Maybe just a simple SS with single disc brake. I always like the option of changing from SS to geared and back if I wanted. As far as frame material, take your pick, but for the DJ bike, I like cromo.

  170. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected]
    Well Mike, Haro Steel Reserve, Specialized P1, Mongoose Ritual, Eastern DJ bikes are good ones. Dunno if that will help. Maybe just a simple SS with single disc brake. I always like the option of changing from SS to geared and back if I wanted. As far as frame material, take your pick, but for the DJ bike, I like cromo.
    The Spesh P.1 and Haro Steel Reserve are popular mainstream ones. Easy to build up one like that.

    For a DJ/SlopeStyle/4X a bit more dirt worthy to reference, I think the Yeti DJ is quality but I think the Banshee Amp is more drool worthy, IMO.


    Others to consider that weren't listed: Kona Shred, Giant STP for mainstream and BlkMrkt Mob/Riot for boutique.

  171. #171
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    metal type

    Mike could you please verify that you will be producing a Ti frame in the FS 29er. I think you discussed this in a earlier post but I can't find it thanks.

  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    4 monstercross in the works now
    1 triple and 3 doubles
    but I agree that a 1x10 makes a lot of sense
    and after our first run on monstercross; it would be easy to add a single cr one

    thanks
    I suppose gears make sense since monstercross is really a do-it-all type of bike. Glad to hear this is going to happen. I really think these things are going to get sold out quick if they are priced right. I'd like to see one with disc brakes for sure.

  173. #173
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    Mike any updates or more details on specs/options on this bike? Also any idea on what a medium will weigh?
    Last edited by subspd; 02-24-2011 at 03:31 PM.

  174. #174
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    Actually, a 622 top tube at 72.5 degree seat angle is probably effectively a bit longer than a 615mm top tube at 74 degrees. The idea is, since your saddle position shouldn't change relative to the bottom bracket, you need to consider the effect of the SA on the effective top tube length. I worked out the trigonometry once, and IIRC 1 degree of SA was worth about 8mm of top tube (it depends on the frame size). So in this case, a 1.5 degree change of the seat angle would make the top tube of the FS bike about 12mm longer (=627), longer than your size L Ti Fly, if the seat angles were the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtrider7
    Maybe guys who like to ride like Mary Poppins. Lance Armstrong is 5'10" on a good day and rides a Trek dually with 625mm top tube and 120mm stem with 73 deg sta.
    Even he won't fit this Moto size Large which is inexplicably a shorter Large than the Ti Fly with 622mm top tube and 72.5 deg sta.
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  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by seat_boy
    Actually, a 622 top tube at 72.5 degree seat angle is probably effectively a bit longer than a 615mm top tube at 74 degrees. The idea is, since your saddle position shouldn't change relative to the bottom bracket, you need to consider the effect of the SA on the effective top tube length. I worked out the trigonometry once, and IIRC 1 degree of SA was worth about 8mm of top tube (it depends on the frame size). So in this case, a 1.5 degree change of the seat angle would make the top tube of the FS bike about 12mm longer (=627), longer than your size L Ti Fly, if the seat angles were the same.
    Geometry is a personal thing. Most go for a target for sta and tt separately. You are right about the trig...1 deg of sta = 8-10mm of top tube depending on seat height. For me the geometry of this bike is all wrong. I have long legs so like a 72-73 sta to keep my knees in line with pedal spindle and CG back. I don't want any bike with a 74 deg sta unless its a time trial bike 615 is short for a Large top tube. Hugely short? No...but quite a few Larges out there with top tube =622-625mm which I also prefer as I don't like to ride bolt upright and have long arms as well. Now...one can run a setback seatpost on this bike which will lengthen the tt dimension as well. I think the point here is...don't ram a round peg into a square hole. The Fly Ti 29er has a very different geometry than this bike and I like the Fly Ti 29er geometry which was 'borrowed' from Gary Fisher...but not the Ti Fly 26" geometry incidentally which has a woefully short top tube. Gary Fisher's 26" mtbs don't have short top tubes. With all the great 29ers out there, simply purchase the frameset with the geometry that best matches your proportions and riding position as fit is perhaps the most important ingredient in a frame purchase. This bike gets a pass for me but may fit others with shorter legs who like to ride more upright and may like it.
    Cheers.

  176. #176
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    Hey Mike... any update? March was mentioned in a previous update as a possible release time.

  177. #177
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    Mike please consider red and white as frame colors. How about going all out and making a titanium version? Why not step it up to 120mm?

  178. #178
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    I agree, that funky bend looks like a weak point for sure. I could be wrong though. Hopefully they've tested the design and have good QC during production!

  179. #179
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    MIke we are dying for some updates!

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    Does anyone know if Mike is planning to build a Ti version of this bike? If not I need to start looking in a different direction.

  181. #181
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    March is almost over and still no word. I wonder if the trouble for our friends in Japan is slowing down production? Certainly justified.

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    i re-read the thread... pre-sales in june and shipping in july *pout*

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    Mike,

    1st off, THANK YOU for being so open and active with your customers! I've had my Fantom Comp for over five years and I tell everybody and their brother how great a bike and great a value they are.

    I've been shopping very hard lately for a DS 29er and it's like Christmas, New Years and my wedding night all rolled into one to know MB DS 29ers are on their way. Thanks also for having a fairly wide price point. It's been frustrating trying to get into this segment for under $2k and everytime I look at a Trek or Specialized, etc I always come back to BD to comtemplate your HT 29ers (both Alu & Ti).

    For the love of all that's holy, make a bike in RED! Heck, even a nice blue would be okay. I really think there's too much polished/silver in your inventory, they all look the same.. I still think my 2005 MB Fantom Comp in Red is one of the best colors I've seen on any vehicle, let alone a bicycle.

    Thanks again for being AWESOME and making great bikes for a great price, I'll keep spreading the word!

    Craig

  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaalllen
    i re-read the thread... pre-sales in june and shipping in july *pout*
    Wow I had it in my head that it was March for some reason... Still hope he goes with a 15mm or 20mm front fork and gives us a color other than silver, black or grey...

  185. #185
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    I like the white color, personally. This white+blue looks amazing, but I wonder about its durability.

  186. #186
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    9/14/2010: Mike said more info by march

    2/8/2011:

    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    There will be 5 spec levels; top ones in Polished

    Bikes will go on presale in June and land in July

    Pre-book prices from $1295 to $1999
    top versions use 15mm

    I think everyone will be happy with these

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    FS 29er design--Eagerly Awaiting!!

    I had mentioned before the no bobbing suspension systems of the BMC APS (active pivot system) on the BMC fourstroke bike and the Rocky Mountain Element suspension (3D linkage) for the same no bob. You can add the suspension system of the Niner Jet 9 to the list. I hope the Motobecane system is great!
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  188. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by starstevenson
    I had mentioned before the no bobbing suspension systems of the BMC APS (active pivot system) on the BMC fourstroke bike and the Rocky Mountain Element suspension (3D linkage) for the same no bob. You can add the suspension system of the Niner Jet 9 to the list. I hope the Motobecane system is great!
    You do realize that most of those "no-bob" systems are extremely dependent on shock valving to reduce bob? It's really hard to eliminate bob through suspension design, though some have tried by purposely designing in high anti-squat at the beginning of the stroke. Even then, if you take your pedaling technique you had from another suspension design and try to use it on an "anti-squat bike", you'll be like, OMG this bike bobs way more than my current one!

    Point is, don't read too much into suspension design hype. They all smooth out a ride and provide traction. I admit there are differences, like ones that consider chain lengthening and shortening, locking up when braking, flexy designs, high maintenance pivots, creaky, durability issues, weight, compatibility with front derailleurs, etc. That's the kind of stuff you should be looking out for and not faux bar is worse Horst which is worse than Ellsworth ICT which is worse than DW Link or ABP, etc etc.

    The Moto uses one of the most common designs, which works fairly well. It's a faux-bar, a cross between a 4-bar and single pivot. They could market it like a BMC, or not market it like Turner TNT, Ventana, or Kona, who all had them really well dialed. It's sad to see so many falling for marketing hype.

  189. #189
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    ^^^ yep!

    I have a "faux bar" with a swing link on my Rize4 and I can't detect any bob. And the only way I can the rear end to stiffen up (brake jack), it to lock both brakes and keep the tires from moving in either direction. If that happens, the least of my worries is inactive suspension...I'll be going over the bars! The downside of the linkage type designs is more pivot points = more maintenance and more points of failure.

    A single pivot swingarm is pretty bulletproof, especially provided there are big bearings at the pivot such as the Santa Cruz Superlight, Nickel, Bullit, and Butcher. And with a proper lockout/platform on valving you can have a very efficient pedaling bike at a low cost with minimal maintenance.
    "Got everything you need?"

  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaalllen
    9/14/2010: Mike said more info by march

    2/8/2011: Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    There will be 5 spec levels; top ones in Polished
    What a shame!!! I really wish they would have gone with white, red or orange for the top level ones...I really like the white and blue Pivot linked above. But a fire engine Red would have been sharp. But I will probably still go with the top end bike when it comes. That is if I don't end up buying something with more travel...

    What is the seat post diameter of this bike?
    Also what wheel set will the 15mm axle bike come with?
    What will the rear end wheel be? 135x20mm?
    Last edited by subspd; 03-24-2011 at 02:31 PM.

  191. #191
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    Hey Mike, thank you for the ride for less $$$.
    Being some one that rides a 21" Moto Fantom Pro 29 SL with a 120mm by 7deg stem, a 25mm set back post with the saddle way back on the rails, and 175mm crank arms that will soon be 190's. I am wondering about the geometry of the FS Moto coming out. My measurements are a none point because I have figured out the cockpit fit that I want, at least on this bike.

    Will the large have a long enough ETT for me based on what I have said of my current setup, and the geometry you stated earlier in the thread?

    And
    , what if you took pre-orders for XL frames(22.5" with 26"+ ETT) or frame & fork combos on the BikeIsland site? It would give big people the size frame we possibly need/want and you would not have to worry about the logistics of the whole shipping complete bikes thing you wrote about earlier in the thread. Please at least consider the frame & fork combos in XL on that site, I bet they would sell .
    I know I have card in hand, waiting.
    Last edited by Dark_Rider; 03-24-2011 at 04:14 PM.

  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Rider
    Hey Mike, thank you for the ride for less $$$.
    Being some one that rides a 21" Moto Fantom Pro 29 SL with a 120mm by 7deg stem, a 25mm set back post with the saddle way back on the rails, and 175mm crank arms that will soon be 190's. I am wondering about the geometry of the FS Moto coming out. My measurements are a none point because I have figured out the cockpit fit that I want, at least on this bike.

    Will the large have a long enough ETT for me based on what I have said of my current setup, and the geometry you stated earlier in the thread?

    And
    , what if you took pre-orders for XL frames(22.5" with 26"+ ETT) or frame & fork combos on the BikeIsland site? It would give big people the size frame we possibly need/want and you would not have to worry about the logistics of the whole shipping complete bikes thing you wrote about earlier in the thread. Please at least consider the frame & fork combos in XL on that site, I bet they would sell .
    I know I have card in hand, waiting.


    That would be a XXL.

  193. #193
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    I'm starting to get cold feet on this bike. I know pre order is soon. Throw us a bone Mike. some pics? specs? anything. I still haven't received a answer if this bike will be made with a Titanium frame. LETS GET THIS THING OUT ON THE MARKET! Sorry Mike, just really want to get this bike. We have been waiting a looooong time.

  194. #194
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    I agree,
    Sent e-mail last week and BD said this week would be pre-order for FS 29er.
    Sent e-mail today and they said June. I love the way they stand behind their product (and price), however I hate the way BD communicate inventory dates. Wanted to order a bike this week but will put off until they get the 29er HT I want or the 29er FS comes in.

  195. #195
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    Kinda depressing then. I am really wanting to go order one. I passed up a fantastic craigslist deal which was a 'visually new ' bike since it would keep me from grabbing a new one from BD.

    Grrr.....

  196. #196
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    Any 'production' pics and component specs yet for this 29FS?
    As stated above, I don't want to pass up any more potential bikes w/o knowing exactly what I am waiting for. Thanks!

  197. #197
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    X2 ^^^
    will it be available in frameset/fork only right off the bat?

  198. #198
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    X2 ^^^
    will it be available in frameset/fork only right off the bat?

  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisFranz
    Any 'production' pics and component specs yet for this 29FS?
    As stated above, I don't want to pass up any more potential bikes w/o knowing exactly what I am waiting for. Thanks!
    ]

    My situation exactly... The wait has been very long, and at this point I started looking elsewhere. There won't be Motobecane FS 29er delivery until late July at the earliest. It's hard to wait for something on the promise that it will be good, without anything to grab onto. Just a quick picture of a prototype which will be heavily modified. If they don't have anything to show now, what's to say it isn't delayed again?

    New 2012 models from many companies will start rolling out in August, with more 29er offerings. Very poor PR on their part.

  200. #200
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    I bet this is the last sneak preview we get because everyone is waiting for their full suspension bike at half the price of competitors and acting like a sourpuss about it. Mike was sharing with enthusiasts not advertising. He would have put it on his website if that would have been the case. His estimates of when it will be ready are just that….estimates….I am no expert on Taiwanese bike factory tool up times or lead-times, but I bet they are horrendous as there are only a couple that make everyone’s bikes. I assume they keep prices low(which we all know they are the best in the business) by taking advantage of low demand time at MFG facilities. And as far as trim levels, I don’t suspect they source components until the last minute for the production run and are subject to change until that time. Manufacturing 101. I am no expert on Bikesdirect.com’s business model and make no statements on their behalf…Just my opinion based on my knowledge of business and international manufacturing.
    Thanks for sharing Mike. I apologize for some of our peers as they are just stoked about the prospect of your first FS 29er offering as am I. I hope you will not let this taint your decision to post future crumbs for us.

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