CORP February Meeting 2/25/10! FREE BEER!- Mtbr.com
Results 1 to 46 of 46
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Nater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,856

    CORP February Meeting 2/25/10! FREE BEER!

    Hey all you Madison/Dane County area mountain bikers!

    What: Capital Off-Road Pathfinders monthly meeting

    Where: Fitchburg Community Center
    5510 Lacy Rd.
    Fitchburg, WI
    Upstairs large conference room

    MAP HERE

    When: Thursday February 25th at 7:00 PM.

    Why: Become a charter member of CORP. Get your voice heard concerning mountain bike trails in and around Madison. Free beer. Talk bikes with bike junkies. FREE BEER!

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Walt Dizzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    1,414
    Planning to be there.

  3. #3
    VENI VEDI BIKI
    Reputation: skankingbiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    836
    Ditto

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    123
    How can you miss FREE BEER? And these CORPers know what good beer is. No Miller Lite swill. Usually a good mix of Ale Asylum, Furthermore, Capital and other tasty brews Come on out and see what is going on in South Central Wiscovakia!

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Nater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,856
    Bump!

    Meeting is this Thursday! C'mon out and find out what CORP is all about.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    113
    First off, let me say that I appreciate all of the hard work every single one of you guys at corp puts into the trails and the sport.

    I am a bit confused as to why you are now asking for paid memberships to corp? I know you say some of it goes back to the trails....that's why you have to buy trail passes. Yea yea, QR doesn't require them - as it shouldn't. Now you cannot vote without paying for a membership? Now not only do you have to become an active member of your club but you also have to pay to have any voice about public trails? There is no reason to start charging...especially if that is the only way you can vote. I'm sure you think you have "needs" like tools and equipment and whatnot.......borrow some of the city's/get menards to donate/use your own/a million other ideas that do not require charging to have a vote.

    You guys do great work on the trails.....but come on what's with all the BS? I even read somebody on here thinks he is the "manager" of quarry park? Let's not forget blue mounds is a state park, cam rock is a county park, and QR and QP are city parks.

    Now you are becoming a non-profit corp? ......Really?

    Nater- you really put "CORP Board of Directors" in your name.....You guys need to seriously chill out and not let this "power" go to your head. Just ride a bike.

    Why don't you guys just cut the BS and do trailwork if you want to, and if you don't then don't. Quit messing around with bylaws, membership fees, voting rights, etc. You're a bunch of people that like to bike, not anything more.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Walt Dizzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    1,414
    Quote Originally Posted by wisbike
    I'm sure you think you have "needs" like tools and equipment and whatnot.......borrow some of the city's/get menards to donate/use your own/a million other ideas that do not require charging to have a vote.

    You guys do great work on the trails.....but come on what's with all the BS? I even read somebody on here thinks he is the "manager" of quarry park? Let's not forget blue mounds is a state park, cam rock is a county park, and QR and QP are city parks.

    Now you are becoming a non-profit corp? ......Really?

    Nater- you really put "CORP Board of Directors" in your name.....You guys need to seriously chill out and not let this "power" go to your head. Just ride a bike.

    Why don't you guys just cut the BS and do trailwork if you want to, and if you don't then don't. Quit messing around with bylaws, membership fees, voting rights, etc. You're a bunch of people that like to bike, not anything more.
    "I'm sure you think you have needs" Great passive-aggressive construction there, extra creativity points.

    Seriously, you are offended that CORP is incorporating? You think we're doing this for some kind of weird power trip?

    Take a moment and consider an explanation that conforms to reality: the land managers and financial granting organizations we have to deal with in order to build the trails you (presumably) enjoy prefer to deal with legally constituted organizations. Not so much with bunches of guys who just like to ride bikes. You want to see a trail at Elver? It isn't going to happen without incorporation.

    I'm offended at the insulting assumptions you make about the motivations of the people involved in CORP. Nobody is forcing you to be a paying member. You, and your opinions are none the less welcome at any CORP function.

    BTW, I don't know exactly who you are referring to as the presumptive manager at Quarry Park. However, the City of Madison Parks Dept. may require a manager affiliated with CORP as part of the price for access to Elver. This may not be to your liking, but the choice may not be up to either of us.

    One more point: you imply that we shouldn't need funds because there are already passes required at most area trails. CORP doesn't get any of that money. For instance, at Blue Mound, any funds I've received have come through the Friends of BMSP, REI, or Pacific Cycle. The one and only time the State has contributed has been to build the bridge in Pleasure Valley.

    I work my a$$ off for your benefit, and I don't think it's out of line to request a pittance of financial support in return.

    Walt

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Nater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,856
    As for putting CORP BOD under my name...I put it there in case people are wondering why I'm the one announcing the upcoming meeting. I certainly don't have some kind of power trip over whether or not I'm the treasurer of the club.

    As Walt said, we need to be incorporated to increase our chances of getting grant money, gaining access to new parks (think Elver), and just generally having a more legitimate organization for the county and the state to deal with...believe it or not, they really like that!

    We really struggled with the membership dues issue. This is the first time we've done it. We're not requiring it. Non-paying members are ALWAYS welcome at meetings, trail work days, weekly group rides, and our upcoming montly rides and CORP Fest.

    At the heart of it, we're still a bunch of guys that love to ride bikes in the woods...we're trying to ensure that opportunity expands and continues into the future.
    Last edited by Nater; 02-23-2010 at 11:04 AM.

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    113
    So you are saying you do get paid for your work with CORP?

    BTW, none of this has anything to do with me wanting anything done differently to the trails or anything else , as I said I appreciate all the work you have done to the trails and I do like all of them.

    Your reason to incorporate makes a little sense to me, although I don't know why you actually had to legally form a corporation...that isn't free and you could have formed a partnership - less formal and FREE. It's not like you will be dealing with tens of thousands of dollars. And yes, I am very familiar with the legal side of business, which is why it doesn't make sense to me.

    I just don't understand why you NEED to charge for a membership and now you cannot vote on anything if you have not paid your dues. I thought you guys cared about the biking community....not just the ones that are willing to pay you.

    It is the principle behind what you are doing that is troublesome - blocking out people's voice unless they pay. I have heard you guys repeatedly say on here if you don't come to the meetings you don't have a voice and if you want to have an opinion come do the trailwork and come to the meetings.....that all makes perfect sense to me. If you aren't willing to do that then you shouldn't be able to have an opinion about how the trails go....I just don't understand why you are requiring your members to pay dues now. Couldn't you have just started done more fundraising? It's not like the numbers you will get from dues are anything spectacular that you couldn't raise from fundraising.

    I apologize for sounding like an a$$hole, you guys do great work are are greatly appreciated...I just don't understand why you are blocking people out. (not me, I won't be living in the area for more than 6 months anyway)

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    113
    Nater - You have all great ideas except taking away voting rights to people that do not pay dues. I would bet that most of your members that attend your meetings are passionate enough about what they are doing that they would pay your fees regardless of any real benefit.

    Case in point - I pay $20 a year to a forum I belong to....much like mtbr.com. There is no benefit to me to paying it - not even a sticker! I just like the forum a lot and want to support it because its something I believe in. However if I HAD to pay to use the forum I can guarantee you I would not pay and not use it as it.

    If people feel passionately enough about something, your fees won't matter. I just think your voting rights idea is alienating and too exclusive. I've never been to your meetings, however I have thought about it. Considering your new rules I would now never attend until that is changed.

    I'm sure there are more people that feel the same as I do. If you didn't have this rule maybe I would go to a meeting maybe I wouldn't, but I can assure you if I went and really hit it off, $20 or $50 in dues wouldn't bother me at all as long as I wasn't forced into it.

    I know you can still attend meetings and go do trailwork if you don't pay....but who really wants to put in the time and effort if they have no say?

  11. #11
    I need skills
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    1,061

    CORP, Inc.

    Interesting questions Wisbike. I think your mindset can be applied to every group in the State building trails.

    On the State of WI incorporation forms it is required that ONE person be listed as the main contact person for the State. It can be any Officer/Director the club chooses.

    For our trail I deal with the USDA US Forest Forest Service. They required that we be Incorporated before they would sign an agreement.

    From the WI DNR site:
    "Why do these trails require a state trail pass?
    They were selected by DNR staff for a variety of reasons, including the quality of experience they offer, their popularity, their maintenance costs, and the DNR ís ability to enforce the requirement in these locations."

    No money collected via trail passes goes back to the clubs that build the trails.

    No Gov't entity is going to have an agreement with out a specific person as a contact.

    As for asking Menards...etc for donations.... Much easier said than done. The local REI, for example, probably gets 6+ donation requests every single day. A club can only beg so much. At some point many groups find it easier to rely on themselves for funding basic operations of the club. (I hate fund raising. My time is so much better spent doing trail work).

    Give back and be proud. Thank the folks who give you the opportunity to do so.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    113
    Walt - Here is the manager reference I was referring to -

    "We recently completed a pump track right in a park in downtown Madison. A couple of us who built it are kinda the trail managers now, so mor stuff is to come."

    This was taken in the "recently moving to madison" thread and was written by JCUZZ.

    If madison requires a manager, that makes all the sense in the world to me. reading this post, you can tell that is not what has happened to this guy.

  13. #13
    =========
    Reputation: ~gomez~'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,869
    3 things every person that considers themselves a mountain bike need to do

    1- volunteer at their local trail care event(s) - you don't have to go to every work day - we all have busy lives with big responsibilities - volunteer once and you'll find it can be very enjoyable - even family friendly

    2- chip a little money into the kitty - we need to pay to play - most of our trail is on public land - funding for recreational land management has been cut drastically - trail pass money doesn't get funneled to trail care organizations or trail care events.

    3- Make trail advocacy an essential part of Mountain Bike Culture. Share this with everyone you know that rides mountain bikes. Teach the importance of volunteerism to your kids. Make advocacy as important as racing in the minds of all mountain bikers. There is a reason that hunters and snowmobilers have so much power on public lands. They're organized and they pay to play. They do the things that mountain bikers need to adopt as part of our sports culture.

    If I lived in Madison, I'd be going to this meeting. I attended the WORBA Southen Kettle Chapter Meeting last Saturday and learned all kinds of things that are going on at the trails that I enjoy riding so much. If you get involved at your trail, good things will happen.

    g

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: brassnipples's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    400
    Quote Originally Posted by wisbike
    Now not only do you have to become an active member of your club...
    Anyone and everyone is invited to the meetings, and your voice will be heard there regardless of your membership status.

    It's important for us to understand what parts of the trail building process you've been involved in and how you feel the new membership option excludes you from participation. Have you helped in any of the approval processes for Dane Co trails? Have you been to trail work days? Have you been to some of the meetings?

    How exactly do you feel that the membership fee is preventing you from having your voice heard?

    It sounds like you have little to no exposure to the processes that the trail managers have to go through to get new trails approved and keep existing trails open.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    7
    Wisbike
    Let me boil it down -
    1) if you want more trails in the county, this is our path. There are years of experience in CORP working with land agencies, the municipalities, IMBA - all points down the road of non-profit. There is a lot in the works that you don't see and take for granted that we are trying to do in Dane County and this was an essential element.

    2) Asking for paying members is not unique - if you look broadly you'll find this is common in mountain bike clubs that are self sufficient. We looked hard at what others were doing to try to find a basis for the club and then tune it to what most members said was reasonable.

    3) Whether you pay or not, you are still welcome to come help build the trails and give input that way, and of course you can ride our trails regardless.

    4) There are many club benefits we are working on beyond voting rights so don't presume we're being exclusive and alienating people. Quite the opposite is true. We are working with bike shops on possible member beneifts, planning to organize family events, planning to offer a lot more than "voting rights". Understand that this is a formality associated with the non-profit side. We are working on a lot of things to make CORP a bigger and better thing and looking to really grow the group. Not to make money. To make it survive so we can keep developing new trails systems and maintain and grow the ones we've got.

    My suggestion is to get involved rather than broadcast presumptuous uninformed criticism. The guys you're spouting at are the lifeblood of the trails in Dane County.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    113
    Guys - All great points!

    The main concern with everything is that you MUST pay if you want to have any voting rights. I understand the benefits of paying to be a member like shop discounts, outings with food, etc.

    I just don't see why you couldn't give everyone the same voice/vote/opportunities/etc...regardless of if you are a paying member. Here's a suggestion - why not have a general membership and a supporting membership but give everyone the right to have a voice in the decision process? Give all the perks such as shop discounts/trail outings/whatever else you have planned only to the supporting members?

    That way everyone can still have a vote without being FORCED into paying for it? There would still be a clear benefit to the individual by becoming a supporting member while at the same time allowing for input for people not ready or passionate enough to contribute any $.

    An even better idea would be to give more votes to people that have attended more meetings.....everyone can vote without paying, but you get more of a say by attending more meetings (a way to exactly measure how much someone is contributing to corp)

    It just seems to me that there are better ways to get supporting members than by forcing them.

    Again, you guys are very appreciated and do great work, please do not be offended.

  17. #17
    Bear
    Reputation: sbaryenbruch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    328

    Differentiation.

    It's all about differentiation.

    Think about it like being a shareholder in a publicly traded company....want a say in how the company operates...buy some shares. Want to bit** all day but never be "heard" don't buy shares.

    Yes, CORP will still listen to everybody regardless of membership status. However, when it comes time to vote on critical issues, paid members are the voting constituency.

    Part of this serves as a way to quell whining and complaining about choices we have made. Say, for example, that we reroute a downhill and somebody doesn't like it. If they voice their opinion and complain loudly and obnoxiously we will hear them. However, because they weren't a voting member, they had no part of the actual decision.

    If you care about the trails in the area joining is an easy decision.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Nater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,856
    Quote Originally Posted by wisbike
    So you are saying you do get paid for your work with CORP?
    Not sure where you got this from, but it couldn't be farther from the truth. None of the board members are getting paid a cent.

    As far as trail managers, yes many of the MOUs with the governing bodies of trails and riding areas require a trail manager. Quarry Park has been the exception...until now. The City of Madison is looking for some more formal oversite of QP.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    113
    You are not a real corporation, so it doesn't make sense to compare voting rights in a real company to your club.

    I assume to a referring a past post of mine about a rerouted downhill - all I asked was if it was done for sustainability reasons, which it was, and I said ok. You should read the whole thread before you judge.

    The fact is, there are other and better ways to go about giving voting rights to people. I have clearly outlined a few. Why will you not consider them?

    I do not want to b**ch about the trails because I like them. If I did want a voice I would join corp. If that time comes, which I doubt it will, It will be annoying that I have to pay to have a vote on anything, hence my posts.

    Again, there are clearly better ways to go about dividing votes and getting money from members, why won't you consider them?

  20. #20
    Bear
    Reputation: sbaryenbruch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    328

    corporation...

    Last time the bank checked we are formally listed as: Capital Off Road Pathfinders Inc.

    Tax ID and documentation to prove it.

    Try again.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Nater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,856
    Quote Originally Posted by cjohnson
    Interesting questions Wisbike. I think your mindset can be applied to every group in the State building trails.

    On the State of WI incorporation forms it is required that ONE person be listed as the main contact person for the State. It can be any Officer/Director the club chooses.

    For our trail I deal with the USDA US Forest Forest Service. They required that we be Incorporated before they would sign an agreement.

    From the WI DNR site:
    "Why do these trails require a state trail pass?
    They were selected by DNR staff for a variety of reasons, including the quality of experience they offer, their popularity, their maintenance costs, and the DNR ís ability to enforce the requirement in these locations."

    No money collected via trail passes goes back to the clubs that build the trails.

    No Gov't entity is going to have an agreement with out a specific person as a contact.

    As for asking Menards...etc for donations.... Much easier said than done. The local REI, for example, probably gets 6+ donation requests every single day. A club can only beg so much. At some point many groups find it easier to rely on themselves for funding basic operations of the club. (I hate fund raising. My time is so much better spent doing trail work).

    Give back and be proud. Thank the folks who give you the opportunity to do so.
    Thanks for the outsider perspective!

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    113
    last time I checked i wrote that you weren't a REAL corporation.....not a literal definition.

    In a previous post I already acknowledged you had formally incorporated.

    Try again....

    Out of everything I wrote, that is the only thing you will comment on?

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    113
    I already addressed your differentiation issue by suggesting giving more votes to people that have attended more meetings.

    If you guys are really as understanding and nice as you say, you would see that this is constructive criticism and it makes a lot more sense than doing what you are doing.

  24. #24
    Bear
    Reputation: sbaryenbruch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    328

    Agenda....

    I'd be happy to discuss this in further detail.

    Thursday 7pm.

    Fitchburg City Hall.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Nater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,856
    What's your definition of a "real" corporation then?

    You seem to be hung up on the fact that we're requiring people to pay. We're not. Non-paying members are still free to voice they're opinion at meetings and workdays all they want. In fact, at meetings, I don't know who is a member and who isn't.

    When it comes time to vote on how to spend the club's money (and this is the only issue that will get voted on frequently), the paying members get the vote since they contributed to the kitty.

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    26
    How much are the Dues?

  27. #27
    Bear
    Reputation: sbaryenbruch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    328

    dues

    $25 individual

    $35 family

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    113
    Look, I could make a corporation this afternoon if I wanted, so lets not get hung up on the definition. Just because you filed doesn't mean you are able to start making comparisons to publicly traded corps or acting like one.

    I understand what you are saying about only contributers should get to decide how to spend money. Right now, I'm sure that most of the money you have is from your member dues, however I am sure that within the next year or so that will drastically change. If 90% of the money is not from membership dues, which will be the case soon, then there isn't really much entitlement of decision making from only paying members.


    I would like someone to try to argue this -

    The more meetings and events you go to, the more of a vote you get. For every meeting or event you get one vote. Everyone starts out with zero votes upon free membership. If people are attending meetings and events, trail workdays, who would honestly not donate to become a supporting member (the supporting member gets the perks you guys were talking about). This way people do not feel like they have to donate, although will have to if they want your perks. This also rewards people for working harder. All of you guys will have more of a say than someone that just pays for a membership and goes to one meeting to b*tch about something and vote on it.

    somebody please tell me why that is not a superior way than FORCING people to pay if they want to become a member of corp. (yes, I know you can still help out without becoming a member)

    No dancing about definitions, my old posts, etc. Tell me why your idea is better.

  29. #29
    Bear
    Reputation: sbaryenbruch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    328

    Agenda....

    If you want to discuss please be at the meeting Thursday night.

    Want me to put you on the agenda?

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation: brassnipples's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    400
    Quote Originally Posted by wisbike
    If you guys are really as understanding and nice as you say, you would see that this is constructive criticism and it makes a lot more sense than doing what you are doing.
    To say that your idea "makes a lot more sense" is an awfully bold statement for someone who was not there for any of the discussions that led to these decisions. You have to admit that you're a little late to the game for this particular topic. We are listening to your opinion and defending our decisions but it's entirely unrealistic for us to alter months of planning because a post from a single rider who has never been involved in the club and never plans to be. Really, what response are you expecting?

    The fact is there was a lot of discussion about weather to incorporate, pros, cons, alternatives. There was also a lot of discussion around dues, if they were a good idea, how much, benefits to paying them, etc... These discussions were not held behind closed doors, it all happened at open meetings and forum threads. Not everyone agreed on every point and the current system was born from the opinions from the open debate.

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    113
    No, I already pm'd scott and told him that I may go to some trail work days, but I like everything you guys have done and don't have any need to be involve with your decision process.

    Everything you guys do and decide (save for this minor detail) is great.

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    113
    sorry I misread the last message scott, I didn't realize you wrote that.

    Brassnipples, very good point, and it makes sense to keep it how it is simply because you already have the ball rolling. That being said, I'm sure it wouldn't take much to change it and I am sure none of you would ask for a refund.

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Walt Dizzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    1,414
    Quote Originally Posted by wisbike
    So you are saying you do get paid for your work with CORP?

    Your reason to incorporate makes a little sense to me, although I don't know why you actually had to legally form a corporation...that isn't free and you could have formed a partnership - less formal and FREE. It's not like you will be dealing with tens of thousands of dollars. And yes, I am very familiar with the legal side of business, which is why it doesn't make sense to me.

    I just don't understand why you NEED to charge for a membership and now you cannot vote on anything if you have not paid your dues. I thought you guys cared about the biking community....not just the ones that are willing to pay you.

    It is the principle behind what you are doing that is troublesome - blocking out people's voice unless they pay. I have heard you guys repeatedly say on here if you don't come to the meetings you don't have a voice and if you want to have an opinion come do the trailwork and come to the meetings.....that all makes perfect sense to me. If you aren't willing to do that then you shouldn't be able to have an opinion about how the trails go....I just don't understand why you are requiring your members to pay dues now. Couldn't you have just started done more fundraising? It's not like the numbers you will get from dues are anything spectacular that you couldn't raise from fundraising.
    "I thought you guys cared about the biking community....not just the ones that are willing to pay you."

    "It's for your own good dear".

    The legal end: Your business experience may not apply to 501(C)3 charitable organizations. Look it up.

    We are required to be a corporation to qualify for federal tax status. We are required to have a dues paying membership. Could we have chosen something other than voting rights as a reward? You bet. However it was discussed to the point where nothing was getting done, so I pushed for voting rights as a way to break the log jam. The actual reason that it pulled through...you'd have to poll the other people involved in the process. The relevant points have been aired ad nauseum on the CORP website and at public meetings.

    Look at it this way: your voice is being heard. Actual board members and trail stewards from CORP are discussing your concerns in a responsible manner right now. That's the way it will be in the future too. Are you being "blocked out" now?

    But like all other organizations, CORP is not a perfect democracy. Instead, we chose to organize ourselves in a way that gets us to a decision in a reasonably fast manner. The fastest way I know to cut off people who want to argue for its own sake is to ask them to put up, whether it's time or money. In this case it's both.

    If you feel strongly that CORP has taken the wrong way (and I know you aren't the only one) I urge you to consider standing for election to the board next time. The club presidency is up for grabs next year, it may be your lucky day.

    Good to hear that fund raising is easy for you. We could certainly use your help.

    Member dues are important. Putting together a club that can tackle the work of access and construction is not free. We are pursuing funding from a variety of sources, but if our members don't have enough confidence in the worth of what we're trying to do to contribute, that makes a weak case for corporate giving.

    We've tried all the stuff you bring up and it hasn't worked. We've run a shoestring budget club for years, and far from making people happy they stay away, in droves. Why? I'd guess it's because we couldn't afford to do anything for fun. Offering free trail work days alone was not generating a lot of enthusiasm.

    I'm in this to make great trails, and lots of them. If that getting to that goal means I have to put pressure on people to contribute, I'll do it. If that offends you, just ignore me, enjoy the trails and don't worry about it. Hope to see you on the trails or hear you at the club events.

    You're welcome.

    Walt

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation: motoscotch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    9
    without dues the free beer would run out sooner or later. further, the club was getting too big to expect the old time members to keep using their own money to buy beer when the club didn't.

    I think the whole voting thing had really nothing to do with being a paid member, it was just tossed in there as a benefit of becoming a paid member. I don't think we put in nearly as much thought, or energy, than what's been used to get this point in this thread.

    seems a lot of making a mountain where a mole hill was.....

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation: brassnipples's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    400
    Quote Originally Posted by motoscotch
    making a mountain where a mole hill was.....
    Heh, as a mountain bike club in a vertically challenged state, that's actually a pretty good slogan for CORP

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation: motoscotch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    9
    Quote Originally Posted by brassnipples
    Heh, as a mountain bike club in a vertically challenged state, that's actually a pretty good slogan for CORP
    should we vote on it???

    actually, it would be a good add on to our logo somewhere.

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    113
    Walt -

    Good answer.

    I sometimes forget that in every situation someone will be unhappy. I don't think this issue is big enough to keep debating. Thanks for clarifying everything for me, and in the future if I ever have any real trail issues I will certainly join corp. In the meantime I'm sure I will see you guys on the trail or at workdays.

    Regardless of my feelings towards voting rights, you guys do a great job with the trails and I appreciate everything you do for the biking community.

    BTW, any guesstimate as to when the park in Middleton will be completed?

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,117
    Quote Originally Posted by wisbike
    Walt - Here is the manager reference I was referring to -

    "We recently completed a pump track right in a park in downtown Madison. A couple of us who built it are kinda the trail managers now, so mor stuff is to come."

    This was taken in the "recently moving to madison" thread and was written by JCUZZ.

    If madison requires a manager, that makes all the sense in the world to me. reading this post, you can tell that is not what has happened to this guy.
    "JCUZZ" was at my home this evening. He is among a few who have been the recent liaisons with the city and they hold the key to the gate.

    As far as your mentioning tens of thousand of dollars. When I shared duties with Walt at BMSP we did do a $10,000+ project. The new project I am working on has a $30,000 budget, has had people working at it for 4 years, and we have not dug dirt yet. I hope to have some very good news regarding funding this week. It has been without exception that the grant applications require non-profit incorporation and that the land managers have rules so please understand that.

    Finally be nice and consider helping. A surprisingly small number of people bring you the trails you ride. Several people log up to a few hundred hours of volunteer time a year doing this and some burn out. The power thing is not being a trail manager, crew leader, director, whatever... the power thing is seeing what has been done that will last generations.

    Thank you.

    P.S. Nate and others should wear their title with pride. It has been a weight off of some of our shoulders and heart warming to have the help we have and be making new levels of progress.

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,117
    Quote Originally Posted by wisbike

    BTW, any guesstimate as to when the park in Middleton will be completed?
    That gets back to the issues at hand here, money, help, rules, and a lot of work whether we like it or not. I hope to have some very good news about our funding yet this week.

    Much or most of stage 1 should be done in May. Keep your eyes open for volunteer dates to be posted and mark your calendar for riding there May 23. We hope to get done in weeks what has historically taken years. I hope that explains the significance of the cooperation, planning, help and money we're all discussing.

    FYI: Success and acceptance if stage 2 will drive (or not) stage 2.

    I hope we can meet and hope ya'll can pass the word because there's no turning back now.

    Thanks.

  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by wisbike
    I would like someone to try to argue this -

    The more meetings and events you go to, the more of a vote you get. For every meeting or event you get one vote. Everyone starts out with zero votes upon free membership. If people are attending meetings and events, trail workdays, who would honestly not donate to become a supporting member (the supporting member gets the perks you guys were talking about). This way people do not feel like they have to donate, although will have to if they want your perks. This also rewards people for working harder. All of you guys will have more of a say than someone that just pays for a membership and goes to one meeting to b*tch about something and vote on it.

    somebody please tell me why that is not a superior way than FORCING people to pay if they want to become a member of corp. (yes, I know you can still help out without becoming a member)

    No dancing about definitions, my old posts, etc. Tell me why your idea is better.
    Because your loyal attendance at meetings and your "spirited support" will not run leaf blowers to clean off Blue Mounds in the Fall. Well, then again, maybe all your hot air could be used for something.

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Walt Dizzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    1,414
    Quote Originally Posted by fagundes79
    Because your loyal attendance at meetings and your "spirited support" will not run leaf blowers to clean off Blue Mounds in the Fall. Well, then again, maybe all your hot air could be used for something.
    Not everyone will do trail work, contribute money, or be vocal supporters. It doesn't make them an enemy. But we appreciate those who do choose to help.

    Thanks,
    Walt

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Walt Dizzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    1,414
    "Walt - Here is the manager reference I was referring to -

    "We recently completed a pump track right in a park in downtown Madison. A couple of us who built it are kinda the trail managers now, so mor stuff is to come."

    This was taken in the "recently moving to madison" thread and was written by JCUZZ.

    If madison requires a manager, that makes all the sense in the world to me. reading this post, you can tell that is not what has happened to this guy."

    You're on the right track, but the timing is what's confusing the matter.

    There is no "official" trail manager position at Quarry Park as of today. Reading Josh's comment, I think the "kinda" covers the fact that he's acknowledging his status is ambiguous.

    Take this with the appropriate size lump of salt because it's all second or third hand information: The City of Madison Parks Dept. is thinking (not official yet) of asking CORP to take on a supervisory role at Quarry Park as part of the deal allowing us access at Elver Park. Independently of this, Josh (CORP member) and Tom (not) have approached the city Parks Dept. about building a pump track at Quarry Park. Their proposal was accepted to the point that they were given a key to the gate.

    IMO, it's quibbling over words to worry whether they are trail managers, power trip junkies, or something else altogether. The important point is that Quarry Park has a liaison to the City Parks Dept. That means that there is some level of acknowledgment that riders have a stake in the park, and their work may stand instead of being subject to destruction at the whim of whatever Parks employee happens to be in the area at the time.

    I don't care whether a trail manager position for QP is under CORP supervision or not. Quit getting yer undies in a bundle about who is in charge and look at the bigger implications. The City of Madison is taking notice of mountain bikers for the first time, and trying to figure out a way to fit us into their system!

    If you feel like you have something to contribute, I again urge you to get involved. Just speaking for myself, debating the rules is a waste of time. Rules are important, but they are only guideposts. People who show up when there is work to be done get a hugely disproportionate influence on the process.

    Walt

  43. #43
    Ballstein Models
    Reputation: hogprint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    344
    Quote Originally Posted by wisbike
    (not me, I won't be living in the area for more than 6 months anyway)
    If this is true then why do you care at all about this subject? Perhaps just to troll for attention?
    ________________

    The source for mountain biking information in the Madison Wisconsin Area:

    Capital Off Road Pathfinders

  44. #44
    =========
    Reputation: ~gomez~'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,869
    How'd the meeting go?

  45. #45
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Walt Dizzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    1,414
    Quote Originally Posted by ~gomez~
    How'd the meeting go?
    We had a great turnout. It went long, lots of discussion about upcoming trail projects featuring the new trail at Middleton (Pleasant View golf course), an update about Elver Park, and plans for more trail at Cam-Rock. Blue Mound is scheduled for another mile of trail split between reroutes and Pokerville.

    We had a proposal from a representative of WORS about putting on a Madison area race in 2011.

    We discussed the incorporation of CORP, and progress toward 501(c)3 status.

    The new owner of the Mt. Horeb bike shop, Allan Best showed up and visited with us. I believe his shop will be named Sweet Ride Bikes.

    Several people brought good beer.

    Oddly enough, Wisbike didn't make the meeting.

    Walt

  46. #46
    =========
    Reputation: ~gomez~'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,869
    Very Cool!

    Any news on CORP-Fest?

    WisBike is saving himself for workdays

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2019 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.