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  1. #1
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    another B Street trail question

    What's the name of the new (to me) trail that runs from the top of Lizard King to Technical Trail? I haven't been out on LK at all this year until yesterday and ended up taking this trail down to TT. Whoever built that did a beautiful job.

  2. #2
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    I can never find that trail!! lol.. Is it right in the beginning of LZ? (starting from the top). I know when I went LZ today there is a hairpin turn and an option to go left. I always go right which I assume is LZ.

    I went on the new end of JL today -- It's a bit hairy in spots but will probobly get better as it wears (the one rock formation that sticks up is insaine).

    I wish someone would update the bstreet map with some of the new stuff.
    “People fear death even more than pain. It's strange that they fear death. Life hurts a lot more than death." JM

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    I heard some dudes in the parking lot calling it Unsolved Mysteries.

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    Ive heard the name unsolved mysteries thrown around as well. Fun trail!

    As for jacobs ladder i rode that yesterday and thought it was fun. It was real dry tho. will probably ride real nice after alittle rain..

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    A more general question...

    I'm new to the area: What's the diff between B-street & Earl's? All postings seem to indicate the same start point

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjamin View Post
    I'm new to the area: What's the diff between B-street & Earl's? All postings seem to indicate the same start point
    116 separates earl's and b-street. earl's is on the west, and b-street the east side.

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    B-st vs Earl's

    Thanks Basso. How do the trails compare?

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    Earl's is smooth and flowy, b street is very technical.

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    Much appreciated!

  10. #10
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    Earls - Smooth, flowing, climb and drop.

    B-street - technical to ultra technical. Large rocks, boulders. Some easier trails some insaine trails. Wicked fun.
    “People fear death even more than pain. It's strange that they fear death. Life hurts a lot more than death." JM

  11. #11
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    [not worth it]
    Last edited by am_dial; 08-13-2011 at 08:52 PM. Reason: not worth it

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    "oversold" lol.. I guess we are all just mortals compared to you...
    “People fear death even more than pain. It's strange that they fear death. Life hurts a lot more than death." JM

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    [not worth it]
    Last edited by am_dial; 08-13-2011 at 08:53 PM. Reason: not worth it

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    "Some easier trails some insaine trails" was a quote in my post. Compared to most places in the area Bachelor is very technical is some sections.
    “People fear death even more than pain. It's strange that they fear death. Life hurts a lot more than death." JM

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    I would like to share an objective opinion, as an outsider, as to what am_dial and Pauldotcom are discussing, but unfortunately I can't. After driving 5 hours to get to Holyoke to ride Bachelor St., I found out that all the trail markings have been removed. WTF???

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    Trail Markings??? Removed?? Never existed. Never will either (except those numerical intersection signs which few can make hide nor hair of!).

    Sorry, B-street and Earl's aren't a resort-there is a very detailed map on line that is fairly easy to navigate by. Finding the trails is pretty easy too as one trail leads to another and nothing is hidden and everything is worth riding. Also, the Parking area always has a few game locals willing to show a visitor around. And, if you post on this forum or other forums plenty of folks will step up to guide you around. Oh, and there are several posted, public rides held here each week. Who needs trail markings?

    Now, as for the 'insanity' level of B-street trails. I guess that is all in the eye of the beholder. I'd say entrance exam, Private Investigations, and a few other newer (or newly enhanced trails) push the very limits of what can be called technical xc--and while not death-defying, they certainly demand the best technical skills of very strong riders.

    B-street is not a 'freeriding' haven, it's just very burly, very excellent xc technical riding-that over 20 miles of biker built single track rarely lets up. Which makes b-street pretty wonderful and a fit expert's delight.

    Hey mballad, isn't this your busy season, when are you finding time to ride b-street (or is that now part of your squad's training regimen?)?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperbMan View Post
    Trail Markings??? Removed?? Never existed. Never will either (except those numerical intersection signs which few can make hide nor hair of!).

    Sorry, B-street and Earl's aren't a resort-there is a very detailed map on line that is fairly easy to navigate by. Finding the trails is pretty easy too as one trail leads to another and nothing is hidden and everything is worth riding. Also, the Parking area always has a few game locals willing to show a visitor around. And, if you post on this forum or other forums plenty of folks will step up to guide you around. Oh, and there are several posted, public rides held here each week. Who needs trail markings?
    According to a local bike shop, the trails markings were there before, so maybe you have your thoughts crossed with another riding area.

    Trail markings allow people not only to navigate, but to remember trails they liked and those they didn't like so much. This also encourages people to come back and ride it again, leaving tourist dollars in the area, not that Holyoke seems to need it.

    And no, it's not easy to navigate this place; the IMBA trail forked off 3 times in the first 15 minutes, I had no clue where I was going and I didn't have 5 hours of riding time in front of me. As for the map, it's quite condensed. And what good is a map when you're riding in spaghetti-land? "Let's see, how many left and rights turns have we done so far??"

    Of course you're riding from a local perspective, so yeah, it's pretty easy when you know the area by heart. Holyoke is a Government State Park, having trail indications should be a minimum, so maybe it just needs a bit of organization.

    Not having marked trails sure is an effective way of deterring new riders. As for asking the locals, it's not up to all the locals to be responsible for showing newcomers around; they have they're own riding plans that day and not everyone rides at the same pace.

    With trail indicators, everybody wins.

  18. #18
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    I for one am real glad there are no trail markings. I'd rather it stay small with less crowds!
    “People fear death even more than pain. It's strange that they fear death. Life hurts a lot more than death." JM

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pauldotcom View Post
    I for one am real glad there are no trail markings. I'd rather it stay small with less crowds!
    Exactly.
    And considering that the State Park does not charge a fee to ride it, why should non-locals be allowed to ride there? Makes perfect sense to me.

  20. #20
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    Superbman,another week before they roll in. My kids have something every night now so I haven't been able to hit a group ride at all this year. B Street was easier for me to navigate than Earls when I first started riding there 7-8 years ago. I remember thinking that every intersection in Earls looked the same where B Street trails were easier to identify.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by xfimpg View Post
    According to a local bike shop, the trails markings were there before, so maybe you have your thoughts crossed with another riding area.

    Trail markings allow people not only to navigate, but to remember trails they liked and those they didn't like so much. This also encourages people to come back and ride it again, leaving tourist dollars in the area, not that Holyoke seems to need it.

    And no, it's not easy to navigate this place; the IMBA trail forked off 3 times in the first 15 minutes, I had no clue where I was going and I didn't have 5 hours of riding time in front of me. As for the map, it's quite condensed. And what good is a map when you're riding in spaghetti-land? "Let's see, how many left and rights turns have we done so far??"

    Of course you're riding from a local perspective, so yeah, it's pretty easy when you know the area by heart. Holyoke is a Government State Park, having trail indications should be a minimum, so maybe it just needs a bit of organization.

    Not having marked trails sure is an effective way of deterring new riders. As for asking the locals, it's not up to all the locals to be responsible for showing newcomers around; they have they're own riding plans that day and not everyone rides at the same pace.

    With trail indicators, everybody wins.

    Start with..the trails aren't in Holyoke, they are in the Holyoke Range SF, which is in the towns of Granby and Amherst (and maybe a little bit in South Hadley)

    1. Don't know what local shop you mean, but in the last 15 years there have been no trail markers other than the sign on the technical trail and the afore mentioned arcane numerical intersections...which are still there.

    2. The 'government' had nothing to do with a single mountain bike trail in the park. Nothing. Those trails are not part of any state park envisioning scheme or anything like that. So neither yours nor anyone else's tax dollars have gone into creating or maintaining those trails. They are open to every non-motorized trail user who has the gumption to go out and enjoy them. Oh, and many of the trails are NOT on state land, but on a chunk of private land with owner approval (Missing Persons, Far Out, etc).

    Who are you to demand the local volunteers who put in countless hours of work, not to mention their own hard-earned cash (every single bridge, every tool employed, all done with private volunteer labor and money), creating and maintaining those trails put up more signage so you can more easily navigate it?

    3. Preventing new riders?? Recent experience says otherwise, there are more Batchelor St riders than ever...newbies and old-guys alike (just look at this forum with the number of new B-street riders looking for info...and getting it in spades). Somehow, with a little intrepid hutzpah and some sense of adventure (and a dose of common sense) all these folks have found their way around.

    4. Tourist dollars--thanks, but the central pioneer valley isn't some cash-starved backwater in desperate need of some well-healed mountain biker's extra spending cash. There are plenty of tourists (not to mention the 30,000 seasonal college students spread out between the 5 colleges) to keep the local economy vibrant. Yeah, that's what we needs, more tourists. I'll ponder that need the next time I'm kicking back a few cider doughnuts at Atkins Farm. But thanks for the advice on how to revitalize our region.

    Anyway, even without the tourist-attracting trail signage, Batchelor St and Earl's somehow, someway continue to attract eager riders from Near and afar whose numbers increase every year. Imagine that.

  22. #22
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    Wooden Engraved Signs

    As someone who rides there all the time, I can verify that there were wooden engraved signs attached to trees about 8 to 10 feet off the ground. These signs were put up by ??? about 3 or 4 years ago and were quickly taken down by ???.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperbMan View Post
    Start with..the trails aren't in Holyoke, they are in the Holyoke Range SF, which is in the towns of Granby and Amherst (and maybe a little bit in South Hadley)
    15 minutes away, big deal. Still part of the region even if you chose to shun it.


    Quote Originally Posted by SuperbMan View Post
    1. Don't know what local shop you mean, but in the last 15 years there have been no trail markers other than the sign on the technical trail and the afore mentioned arcane numerical intersections...which are still there.
    See the response below from Craig2007.


    Quote Originally Posted by SuperbMan View Post
    2. The 'government' had nothing to do with a single mountain bike trail in the park. Nothing. Those trails are not part of any state park envisioning scheme or anything like that. So neither yours nor anyone else's tax dollars have gone into creating or maintaining those trails. They are open to every non-motorized trail user who has the gumption to go out and enjoy them. Oh, and many of the trails are NOT on state land, but on a chunk of private land with owner approval (Missing Persons, Far Out, etc).
    If your Government has nothing to do with the mountain biking trails, then why do they publicize it on their publicly available trail maps?
    http://www.mass.gov/dcr/parks/trails/holyoke.pdf

    I think you need to get in touch with what you're Government is and shouldn't be doing.


    Quote Originally Posted by SuperbMan View Post
    Who are you to demand the local volunteers who put in countless hours of work, not to mention their own hard-earned cash (every single bridge, every tool employed, all done with private volunteer labor and money), creating and maintaining those trails put up more signage so you can more easily navigate it?
    Funny you should assume I was referring to local volunteers, when I had already stated that it isn't their responsibility to shoulder out of town riders. Nice try.


    Quote Originally Posted by SuperbMan View Post
    3. Preventing new riders?? Recent experience says otherwise, there are more Batchelor St riders than ever...newbies and old-guys alike (just look at this forum with the number of new B-street riders looking for info...and getting it in spades). Somehow, with a little intrepid hutzpah and some sense of adventure (and a dose of common sense) all these folks have found their way around.
    Adventure isn't possible when you have 2 hours to ride because you're family is waiting for you. Welcome to the grown-up world.


    Quote Originally Posted by SuperbMan View Post
    4. Tourist dollars--thanks, but the central pioneer valley isn't some cash-starved backwater in desperate need of some well-healed mountain biker's extra spending cash. There are plenty of tourists (not to mention the 30,000 seasonal college students spread out between the 5 colleges) to keep the local economy vibrant. Yeah, that's what we needs, more tourists. I'll ponder that need the next time I'm kicking back a few cider doughnuts at Atkins Farm. But thanks for the advice on how to revitalize our region.
    I could see the vibrancy of Holyoke when I drove through it. And yes, it is only 15 minutes away, so close enough to be considered part of the region.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperbMan View Post
    Anyway, even without the tourist-attracting trail signage, Batchelor St and Earl's somehow, someway continue to attract eager riders from Near and afar whose numbers increase every year. Imagine that.
    I don't think so. You can keep your trails. There are too many better places to ride that actually give a damn about their tourists. I even went to the Welcome Center to buy a pass, and when I asked the lady about the mountain bike trails, she said she had no clue because she'd been out on Earl's and was only able to identify two trails on the map. And she's a local. I guess she's lacking "a little intrepid hutzpah and some sense of adventure". Imagine that.

    I've said what I've had to say so good luck with your trails.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by xfimpg View Post
    15 minutes away, big deal. Still part of the region even if you chose to shun it.




    See the response below from Craig2007.




    If your Government has nothing to do with the mountain biking trails, then why do they publicize it on their publicly available trail maps?
    http://www.mass.gov/dcr/parks/trails/holyoke.pdf

    I think you need to get in touch with what you're Government is and shouldn't be doing.




    Funny you should assume I was referring to local volunteers, when I had already stated that it isn't their responsibility to shoulder out of town riders. Nice try.




    Adventure isn't possible when you have 2 hours to ride because you're family is waiting for you. Welcome to the grown-up world.




    I could see the vibrancy of Holyoke when I drove through it. And yes, it is only 15 minutes away, so close enough to be considered part of the region.



    I don't think so. You can keep your trails. There are too many better places to ride that actually give a damn about their tourists. I even went to the Welcome Center to buy a pass, and when I asked the lady about the mountain bike trails, she said she had no clue because she'd been out on Earl's and was only able to identify two trails on the map. And she's a local. I guess she's lacking "a little intrepid hutzpah and some sense of adventure". Imagine that.

    I've said what I've had to say so good luck with your trails.

    Need a tissue with all that crying? Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Somehow the Pioneer valley (and even Holyoke) will have to get on without you.

    Oh, they aren't my trails, I'm merely grateful to the folks who build and maintain them. And I don't denigrate one of the best riding areas on the east coast because they didn't coddle my free-loading, spoiled tourist butt.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperbMan View Post
    Need a tissue with all that crying? Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Somehow the Pioneer valley (and even Holyoke) will have to get on without you.

    Oh, they aren't my trails, I'm merely grateful to the folks who build and maintain them. And I don't denigrate one of the best riding areas on the east coast because they didn't coddle my free-loading, spoiled tourist butt.
    EXCELLENT post. I ride with some of the folks that build the trails and these guys put in a ton of hours including training to do what they do. Excellent trail network, and even better because we DONT have tourists from chowda town riding on them!

    It's too bad you just didn't message someone on these forums to show you around. I for one am always happy to take people unfamiliar with the trails for a couple of loops.
    Last edited by Pauldotcom; 08-15-2011 at 04:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperbMan View Post
    Need a tissue with all that crying? Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Somehow the Pioneer valley (and even Holyoke) will have to get on without you.

    Oh, they aren't my trails, I'm merely grateful to the folks who build and maintain them. And I don't denigrate one of the best riding areas on the east coast because they didn't coddle my free-loading, spoiled tourist butt.
    Your insults don't replace the fact that you didn't respond to my previous points.
    I guess in lieu of intelligence or even common sense, resort to insults. Good for you.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pauldotcom View Post
    EXCELLENT post. I ride with some of the folks that build the trails and these guys put in a ton of hours including training to do what they do. Excellent trail network, and even better because we DONT have tourists from chowda town riding on them!

    It's too bad you just didn't message someone on these forums to show you around. I for one am always happy to take people unfamiliar with the trails for a couple of loops.
    You guys are really disorganized in your thinking.

    1. The locals maintain the trails.
    2. Your Government advertises the trails but doesn't charge a fee to help cover the local's maintenance costs.
    3. And now it's the tourists fault because we're pointing out that that trails aren't marked, compared to all the other popular riding areas.

    I think you guys need to go back to school and enroll with those 30 gazillion students in your area, whom are obviously making you rich on their student-poor budgets.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by xfimpg View Post
    You guys are really disorganized in your thinking.

    1. The locals maintain the trails.
    2. Your Government advertises the trails but doesn't charge a fee to help cover the local's maintenance costs.
    3. And now it's the tourists fault because we're pointing out that that trails aren't marked, compared to all the other popular riding areas.

    I think you guys need to go back to school and enroll with those 30 gazillion students in your area, whom are obviously making you rich on their student-poor budgets.
    What the hell are you talking about ('sides, didn't you say that you were done posting on this subject?)?

    The locals created the trails and maintain them. The DCR has a map that shows some (about less than half) of the trails at B-street and Earl's. Lot's of people ride there and love it and have figured it out all on their own, or by riding with others in the community.
    You, a lame visitor from elsewhere, show up and grouse that there aren't any trail signs.

    You go on to make a silly argument that trail signs will revitalize Holyoke, and another that our 'Government' should charge money so that we can put up signs to help tourists who like to complain.

    I tell you that there are many publicly posted group rides for all abilities held here each week hosted by volunteer organizations, that if you post up on these forums and ask for some guidance, you'll get it, and that there is a very, very detailed and informative map available that aids self navigation (replete with detailed trail descriptions) and it is available for free (not to mention a host of downloadable GPS content).

    You go on to cry that along with your proud 'tourist' status, you're a beleaguered, time-strapped family guy who couldn't possibly invest some time in finding his way around a riding area.

    Honestly, you strike me as a typical whiny, indulged, individual who grouses when something isn't completely tailored for them. If putting up trail signs will bring more people like you into the sport, or into our riding area then maybe all trail signs everywhere ought to be removed. Seriously, iWhat galls me is that you can't get a handle on what a treasure has been carved out of the Holyoke-skinner range for mountain biking and are willing to dismiss the whole riding experience because it doesn't spoon feed lackadaisical tourist riders with trail signs. Maybe one day Disney will build a mountain biking ride, then you'll have a place to call home.


    Like I said, your visitation won't be missed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperbMan View Post
    What the hell are you talking about ('sides, didn't you say that you were done posting on this subject?)?

    The locals created the trails and maintain them. The DCR has a map that shows some (about less than half) of the trails at B-street and Earl's. Lot's of people ride there and love it and have figured it out all on their own, or by riding with others in the community.
    You, a lame visitor from elsewhere, show up and grouse that there aren't any trail signs.

    You go on to make a silly argument that trail signs will revitalize Holyoke, and another that our 'Government' should charge money so that we can put up signs to help tourists who like to complain.

    I tell you that there are many publicly posted group rides for all abilities held here each week hosted by volunteer organizations, that if you post up on these forums and ask for some guidance, you'll get it, and that there is a very, very detailed and informative map available that aids self navigation (replete with detailed trail descriptions) and it is available for free (not to mention a host of downloadable GPS content).

    You go on to cry that along with your proud 'tourist' status, you're a beleaguered, time-strapped family guy who couldn't possibly invest some time in finding his way around a riding area.

    Honestly, you strike me as a typical whiny, indulged, individual who grouses when something isn't completely tailored for them. If putting up trail signs will bring more people like you into the sport, or into our riding area then maybe all trail signs everywhere ought to be removed. Seriously, iWhat galls me is that you can't get a handle on what a treasure has been carved out of the Holyoke-skinner range for mountain biking and are willing to dismiss the whole riding experience because it doesn't spoon feed lackadaisical tourist riders with trail signs. Maybe one day Disney will build a mountain biking ride, then you'll have a place to call home.


    Like I said, your visitation won't be missed.
    What strikes me the most is how you've managed to get away from my initial comment and made this a complaining tourist thing; Hey buddy, there are no trail markings to show folks where to go, to make sure they don't end up on a double black and injure themselves. How hard is it for you to wrap your head around that? We're talking about trail markings here. SIMPLE COMMON SENSE.

    But that's not important to you because you know the area. You know the trails. So your needs are taken care of. So screw common sense and screw tourists who can't spend 5 hours trying to find their way around. Buddy, we can't see the potential gem you may have there BECAUSE WE CAN'T FIND OUR WAY AROUND. Do you get it? Would you like me to explain to you the concept of having city street names? It's very similar, you know.

    Charge a fee to ride the trails, put the trail markers back on, and that's the end of this conversation. You had them before, why did you remove them? You probably removed them yourself.

    And I wasn't planning on responding, but close-mindedness pushes my buttons.

    If your intention is to keep your trails for the locals only, then just say so. I'll respect that a lot more than lame excuses why marking trails is not important. There were trail markings before and now someone took them down. It's pretty obvious why, you don't have to be a genius to figure that one out. And stop harping on the whiney tourist thing, that's just stupid talk.
    Last edited by xfimpg; 08-15-2011 at 12:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xfimpg View Post
    What strikes me the most is how you've managed to get away from my initial comment and made this a complaining tourist thing; Hey buddy, there are no trail markings to show folks where to go, to make sure they don't end up on a double black and injure themselves. How hard is it for you to wrap your head around that? We're talking about trail markings here. SIMPLE COMMON SENSE.

    But that's not important to you because you know the area. You know the trails. So your needs are taken care of. So screw common sense and screw tourists who can't spend 5 hours trying to find their way around. Buddy, we can't see the potential gem you may have there BECAUSE WE CAN'T FIND OUR WAY AROUND. Do you get it? Would you like me to explain to you the concept of having city street names? It's very similar, you know.

    Charge a fee to ride the trails, put the trail markers back on, and that's the end of this conversation. You had them before, why did you remove them? You probably removed them yourself.

    And I wasn't planning on responding, but close-mindedness pushes my buttons.

    If your intention is to keep your trails for the locals only, then just say so. I'll respect that a lot more than lame excuses why marking trails is not important. There were trail markings before and now someone took them down. It's pretty obvious why, you don't have to be a genius to figure that one out. And stop harping on the whiney tourist thing, that's just stupid talk.


    My "outsiders" opinion of Bachelor street differs greatly from yours. I'm from Rhode Island, not quite as far as you but still 2-2.5 hrs away. My wife and I have a passion for checking out/riding new places through out New England pretty much every weekend. We've been doing this for about 2 years now (that's the beauty of New England...you never run out of places!). When exploring somewhere new, I usually do as much research as possible before the trip to help out with navigating. Check out garmin connects, bikerag.com, nemba, mtbr.....lots of great resources out there.

    In preparation for our first trip to B-street, I searched Mtbr and came up with a 15 mile loop someone had posted (can't remember who....this was a while ago). The trail names of the loop were listed in order from beginning to end. Bikerag.com has an spot on map of Bachelor street with trail names. I printed the bikerag map, highlighted the loop from MTBR, printed the DCR map of Holyoke range. The DCR map pretty much has only the fire roads but it does have all the reference numbers that are nailed to the trees.

    With the Bikerag map we got around the entire loop only getting lost once. When lost, we eventually came out to a fire road where I saw a number on a tree, referenced the DCR map and got right back on track Of course we had to reference the map very frequently but big deal.....It's part of the fun.

    Since then we've been back a dozen or so times, hit pretty much every trail there and can navigate the park without a map. The moral of this story is that research ahead of time goes a long way and you can't always expect your first trip to a park to go without some navigational issues. Who cares if the park doesn't have trail signage, it's not necessary if there is a really good map available. Finally, if you have negative feeling towards a park so much that you have to come on a forum and whine about it, don't go back to the park......there are plenty more to choose from within a 5 hour drive

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSumner13 View Post
    My "outsiders" opinion of Bachelor street differs greatly from yours. I'm from Rhode Island, not quite as far as you but still 2-2.5 hrs away. My wife and I have a passion for checking out/riding new places through out New England pretty much every weekend. We've been doing this for about 2 years now (that's the beauty of New England...you never run out of places!). When exploring somewhere new, I usually do as much research as possible before the trip to help out with navigating. Check out garmin connects, bikerag.com, nemba, mtbr.....lots of great resources out there.

    In preparation for our first trip to B-street, I searched Mtbr and came up with a 15 mile loop someone had posted (can't remember who....this was a while ago). The trail names of the loop were listed in order from beginning to end. Bikerag.com has an spot on map of Bachelor street with trail names. I printed the bikerag map, highlighted the loop from MTBR, printed the DCR map of Holyoke range. The DCR map pretty much has only the fire roads but it does have all the reference numbers that are nailed to the trees.

    With the Bikerag map we got around the entire loop only getting lost once. When lost, we eventually came out to a fire road where I saw a number on a tree, referenced the DCR map and got right back on track Of course we had to reference the map very frequently but big deal.....It's part of the fun.

    Since then we've been back a dozen or so times, hit pretty much every trail there and can navigate the park without a map. The moral of this story is that research ahead of time goes a long way and you can't always expect your first trip to a park to go without some navigational issues. Who cares if the park doesn't have trail signage, it's not necessary if there is a really good map available. Finally, if you have negative feeling towards a park so much that you have to come on a forum and whine about it, don't go back to the park......there are plenty more to choose from within a 5 hour drive
    Re-read my previous post about having a time limit and not being on an adventure. It makes your comments irrelevant right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xfimpg View Post
    Re-read my previous post about having a time limit and not being on an adventure. It makes your comments irrelevant right now.
    With all due respect, how could my comments not apply to a 2 hour ride? You just pick a shorter loop. And when is mountain biking not an adventure? Our sport is a very unpredictable one.

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    I liked the signs. The trails are as man-made as the signs, so I think that respect for the work of others applies equally.

    Besides, I don't think the signs bring ppl in droves, it just makes bragging/bullshitting easier in the parking lot over beers. People will come because these are some of the best trails anywhere, and word is getting out.

    Anyway, it is strange to plan a ride that takes longer to get there and back than the ride itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSumner13 View Post
    With all due respect, how could my comments not apply to a 2 hour ride? You just pick a shorter loop. And when is mountain biking not an adventure? Our sport is a very unpredictable one.
    How do you pick a shorter loop when you don't know the area? You don't.

    It's not an adventure when you're on a schedule. Do you have kids? I didn't think so.

    "Our sport is a very unpredictable one." Yes, exactly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A1Zero View Post
    I liked the signs. The trails are as man-made as the signs, so I think that respect for the work of others applies equally.

    Besides, I don't think the signs bring ppl in droves, it just makes bragging/bullshitting easier in the parking lot over beers. People will come because these are some of the best trails anywhere, and word is getting out.

    Anyway, it is strange to plan a ride that takes longer to get there and back than the ride itself.
    Good point and I should clarify that we were there for the weekend. I also rode Ascutney Basin, which is absolutely beautiful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xfimpg View Post
    How do you pick a shorter loop when you don't know the area? You don't.

    It's not an adventure when you're on a schedule. Do you have kids? I didn't think so.

    "Our sport is a very unpredictable one." Yes, exactly.

    How do you pick a shorter loop when you don't know that area? As I mentioned earlier....research.

    Scheduled rides turn into adventures in the blink of an eye......Unexpected mechanicals, injuries, etc. As I mentioned, our sport is unpredictable! I tried to make my point but you're not pickin' up what I'm putting down here so I'm done. Happy trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSumner13 View Post
    How do you pick a shorter loop when you don't know that area? As I mentioned earlier....research.

    Scheduled rides turn into adventures in the blink of an eye......Unexpected mechanicals, injuries, etc. As I mentioned, our sport is unpredictable! Obviously you're not pickin' up what I'm putting down here so I'm done. Happy trails.
    Again, read the original post = marked trails, not research.

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    Wow, I go away from the computer for 36 hours and look what yall get yourselves into. I feel compelled to respond because it's the wackiest thread I've seen in the MA forum for some time.

    1. Ascutney has great trails.

    2.
    Quote Originally Posted by xfimpg
    Charge a fee to ride there
    Lots of dumb stuff said in this thread, but this is the dumbest by a miiiiiile...

    3. Use the Hampshire College Holyoke Range map (google for it) next time, cuz the DCR map is beyond useless. Waaaaait a minute - Hampshire College has a good map, but the DCR doesn't? And hey, 'member that experience you had with the lady at the ranger station? Like their maps, the DCR is useless. I think they're basically a jobs program for inept people, because their specialty is tripping over their own toes.

    4. Though my comments indicate otherwise, I'm a pretty nice guy and will be more than happy to show you around b street if you ever want to make another trip.

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    WOW. Some thread we got here! I am a local and know every inch of trail in the Holyoke Range. I like it just the way it is - no signs. Perhaps as other have mentioned, 10 minutes of research on the interwebernet would have provided some great info about the trails.....like the lack of signage. I mean, if you were expecting to show up, buy a pass, get a super duper map and ride marked trails, you certainly were disappointed to find otherwise. Some questions on these forums could have helped you avoid that. At any rate, if you want a tour, drop a PM or just ask here or on the NEMBA forum. We like to show folks our great trails. Enjoy your time in the Valley.

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    I know for myself, I wouldn't mind having signs. In fact, if people wanted to, I would be down to meet with a bunch of guys/gals who know and ride there all the time and have a weekend day to put some signs up or something. I dont know much of the trails at B-street but still love riding there.

    The main reason for my posting is to say STOP ARGUING!

    the MA thread should be more about talking about our experiences and growing our biking community, not arguing over signs.

    But I totally agree with A1Zero,
    "it just makes bragging/bullshitting easier in the parking lot over beers. People will come because these are some of the best trails anywhere, and word is getting out."

  41. #41
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    I cannot believe people are arguing about signs lol.. I went to Vegas and rode the "Hurl" trail. I found it because I brought a map, you guessed it, it wasn't marked with a "sign".

    Please no signs; we dont want this xfimpg dude anywhere near our trails.
    “People fear death even more than pain. It's strange that they fear death. Life hurts a lot more than death." JM

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pauldotcom View Post
    I cannot believe people are arguing about signs lol.. I went to Vegas and rode the "Hurl" trail. I found it because I brought a map, you guessed it, it wasn't marked with a "sign".
    It's usually pretty easy to find the trailhead, but this thread isn't about finding the trailhead, is it?

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    "The Hurl" is a trail in the "Cottonwood Valley" trail head system
    “People fear death even more than pain. It's strange that they fear death. Life hurts a lot more than death." JM

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    Quote Originally Posted by smelly View Post
    Wow, I go away from the computer for 36 hours and look what yall get yourselves into. I feel compelled to respond because it's the wackiest thread I've seen in the MA forum for some time.

    1. Ascutney has great trails.

    2.
    Lots of dumb stuff said in this thread, but this is the dumbest by a miiiiiile...

    3. Use the Hampshire College Holyoke Range map (google for it) next time, cuz the DCR map is beyond useless. Waaaaait a minute - Hampshire College has a good map, but the DCR doesn't? And hey, 'member that experience you had with the lady at the ranger station? Like their maps, the DCR is useless. I think they're basically a jobs program for inept people, because their specialty is tripping over their own toes.

    4. Though my comments indicate otherwise, I'm a pretty nice guy and will be more than happy to show you around b street if you ever want to make another trip.
    If you don't want to pay an annual membership, that's your choice. But everyone benefits from additional revenue, especially the locals who work hard to maintain the trail system.

    Anyways, enjoy your trails, I'm sure they're nice. It's too bad that someone took all the signs down that would make it easier for outsiders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pauldotcom View Post
    "The Hurl" is a trail in the "Cottonwood Valley" trail head system
    From MTBR:
    "Head east out from the bike shop to trail and start climbing, grannygear is gonna get a workout, the climb is only about 3/4 of a mile, but you climb 800 to 1000 ft in that short distance, when you get to the top you can look back down at the town of Blue Diamond, from there its all singletrack winding its way back down the back side of the hurl, no siteseeing on this trail, you want to pay attention, cause if you go down its gonna hurt. Great tight, technical singletrack all the way down to the bottom."

    Sounds pretty easy to find when it leaves from the bike shop.

  46. #46
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    Now only if you'd have done some research on Bstreet - this entire conversation would have never happend
    “People fear death even more than pain. It's strange that they fear death. Life hurts a lot more than death." JM

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    Somebody needs to delete this thread.

    B-Street is perfect.

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    Outstanding trails, though I haven't been in @2years. Keep the trails unmarked! And even though the map is outstanding, I'd be fine with burning all copies of it so that everyone's left to their own devices to get in and out of there. (Sorry, I've been watching a lot of "Dual Survival' and the Bear Gryls show.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pauldotcom View Post
    Now only if you'd have done some research on Bstreet - this entire conversation would have never happend
    And where is it written that the trails are unmarked?

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    If you don't like it don't go. We already shell out money to every form of agency in this sate. Yes the trails are on private land and it's great they are providing them and being maintained by volunteers. But putting up signs would kill the scenery. If you're to lazy to do research or meet up with someone who knows the trails don't come. Put some signs up around your yard and ride there so we don't have to listen to you.
    (oh and I'll just go ahead and thank you for the neg rep that I know you are sending my way)

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    Quote Originally Posted by flippedr6 View Post
    If you don't like it don't go. We already shell out money to every form of agency in this sate. Yes the trails are on private land and it's great they are providing them and being maintained by volunteers. But putting up signs would kill the scenery. If you're to lazy to do research or meet up with someone who knows the trails don't come. Put some signs up around your yard and ride there so we don't have to listen to you.
    (oh and I'll just go ahead and thank you for the neg rep that I know you are sending my way)
    Kill the scenery?? Ummm, you're in the woods. At Ascutney Basin they have 4"x4" diamond-shaped markers and they work just fine.

    Not negative, just obvious. Well, obvious if you want to share your trails, that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xfimpg View Post
    Kill the scenery?? Ummm, you're in the woods. At Ascutney Basin they have 4"x4" diamond-shaped markers and they work just fine.

    Not negative, just obvious. Well, obvious if you want to share your trails, that is.
    You've hit nail on the head. Ascutney/STAB is in the process of advertising their trail system and the town has made an initiative to asssist in an effort to bring tourists into the town to spend money.....and ride. With the ski facilty closed, they have little to no tax base in town and they're trying to take advantage of their fantastic trail system. B street is NOT looking to become a tourist destination and it's not the point. We're happy to have people come and ride out stuff, but we have no economic incentive or reason to move in the direction of Ascutney. Apples and oranges.

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    b-street was packed today!

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    Quote Originally Posted by xfimpg View Post
    . After driving 5 hours to get to Holyoke to ride Bachelor St., I found out that all the trail markings have been removed. WTF???
    Who would drive 5 hours to ride somewhere new and only plan to ride for 2 hours? Man you must not have kids! And as for signs i dont think you will be seeing them any time soon.

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    With regards to Acutney.. the STAB mountainside trails represent less than 20% of all the biker built singletrack in that region. However, the other trails are NOT marked, and not mapped--The STAB Mountainside trails are set up as a tourist attracting destination, but they keep the real gems for the locals. Not that that they won't share them, you just have to attend a tuesday night ride and get the lay of the land from the local community and show up for a trailwork day or two. It's worth it by the way.


    The riding in the greater Ascutney region is some of the best in all of new England...and 2 hours closer than KT.
    Last edited by SuperbMan; 08-18-2011 at 09:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pulsepro View Post
    You've hit nail on the head. Ascutney/STAB is in the process of advertising their trail system and the town has made an initiative to asssist in an effort to bring tourists into the town to spend money.....and ride. With the ski facilty closed, they have little to no tax base in town and they're trying to take advantage of their fantastic trail system. B street is NOT looking to become a tourist destination and it's not the point. We're happy to have people come and ride out stuff, but we have no economic incentive or reason to move in the direction of Ascutney. Apples and oranges.
    I checked and the trail markers have been there for a few years. Apples and Apples.

    Additionally, Holyoke is the only place I've ridden all summer that didn't have trail markings. That just isn't normal.

    And if the Mass. Gov't is publicizing Holyoke Trails for Mtbing on their State Park websites adn trail maps, well aren't State Parks tourist destinations? I believe they are.
    Last edited by xfimpg; 08-18-2011 at 12:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperbMan View Post
    With regards to Acutney.. the STAB mountainside trails represent less than 20% of all the biker built singletrack in that region. However, the other trails are NOT marked, and not mapped--The STAB Mountainside trails are set up as a tourist attracting destination, but they keep the real gems for the locals. Not that that they won't share them, you just have to attend a tuesday night ride and get the lay of the land from the local community and show up for a trailwork day or two. It's worth it by the way.


    The riding in the greater Ascutney region is some of the best in all of new England...and 2 hours closer than KT.
    Actually a discussion I had with one of the board members was at 80%, not 20%. If they kept all the good stuff to themselves, they won't attract outsiders and therefore no revenue stream.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xfimpg View Post
    I checked and the trail markers have been there for a few years. Apples and Apples.

    Additionally, Holyoke is the only place I've ridden all summer that didn't have trail markings. That just isn't normal.
    Man, you're difficult. Please go away and never come back to Western Mass. I'm done wasting my time on knuckleheads like you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xfimpg View Post
    Actually a discussion I had with one of the board members was at 80%, not 20%. If they kept all the good stuff to themselves, they won't attract outsiders and therefore no revenue stream.
    The mountainside trails are not 80% of all their trails...they just didn't level with you. Or maybe he meant that 80% of the Mountainside west windsor town forest trails are mapped and signed-which could be true. But there is a lot more to that area than the Ascutney Mountainside/West Windsor Town Forest trails.

    Attend a couple of the tuesday night rides and you'll see how many more miles of great single track they have carved into those hills. Seriously, it's unbelievably good and plentiful, the STAB mountainside trails are just the tip of the iceberg up that way.

    They used to put a lot more info on the club website, but they've drastically reduced the amount of info regarding trails other than the Mountainside Trails, even for members. To get the lowdown on all the goods you have to actually show up and ride with that community a few times and it's helpful to put in a few trail work days. it's not a bad policy.

    I never said they kept all the good stuff to themselves: 1. the Mountainside trails are awesome-on that we can agree and 2. they (STAB) are more than willing to share the other goods in the region, but only on a face to face level. No maps, no freely distributed public info--except the location and times of STAB sponsor group rides (open to members and non-members alike).

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by xfimpg View Post
    I checked and the trail markers have been there for a few years. Apples and Apples.

    Additionally, Holyoke is the only place I've ridden all summer that didn't have trail markings. That just isn't normal.

    And if the Mass. Gov't is publicizing Holyoke Trails for Mtbing on their State Park websites adn trail maps, well aren't State Parks tourist destinations? I believe they are.
    This thread is a joke and you are the reason why. Thank God there are no trail markers; at least it keeps you and people like yourself away. You are totally out of hand and starting to sound like a complete moron. Sorry dude, but really. Just stop already and move on. Plenty of places in MA to ride, goodbye
    “People fear death even more than pain. It's strange that they fear death. Life hurts a lot more than death." JM

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    Signs

    The way I read DCR's Trail Guidelines Document, the signage at Batchelor Street complies fully with their expectations, specific name signage would be out of context for Class 1 and Class 2 trails
    Attached Files Attached Files
    http://facebook.com/CharlemontTrails
    NEMBA Past President...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pauldotcom View Post
    This thread is a joke and you are the reason why. Thank God there are no trail markers; at least it keeps you and people like yourself away. You are totally out of hand and starting to sound like a complete moron. Sorry dude, but really. Just stop already and move on. Plenty of places in MA to ride, goodbye
    It takes two (or more) to Tango, Man; go look at yourself in the mirror.

    You folks said everything except admit the one obvious thing, and by the looks of it your egos are never going to let you admit it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperbMan View Post
    The mountainside trails are not 80% of all their trails...they just didn't level with you. Or maybe he meant that 80% of the Mountainside west windsor town forest trails are mapped and signed-which could be true. But there is a lot more to that area than the Ascutney Mountainside/West Windsor Town Forest trails.

    Attend a couple of the tuesday night rides and you'll see how many more miles of great single track they have carved into those hills. Seriously, it's unbelievably good and plentiful, the STAB mountainside trails are just the tip of the iceberg up that way.

    They used to put a lot more info on the club website, but they've drastically reduced the amount of info regarding trails other than the Mountainside Trails, even for members. To get the lowdown on all the goods you have to actually show up and ride with that community a few times and it's helpful to put in a few trail work days. it's not a bad policy.

    I never said they kept all the good stuff to themselves: 1. the Mountainside trails are awesome-on that we can agree and 2. they (STAB) are more than willing to share the other goods in the region, but only on a face to face level. No maps, no freely distributed public info--except the location and times of STAB sponsor group rides (open to members and non-members alike).
    Thanks for the heads up.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by xfimpg View Post
    It takes two (or more) to Tango, Man; go look at yourself in the mirror.

    You folks said everything except admit the one obvious thing, and by the looks of it your egos are never going to let you admit it.
    Admit what???

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    I'd never set foot in the Holyoke Range until last year, when I moved here. I could have gone on group rides, but I prefer to ride alone. So I lurked in this forum, figured out where the local riding was (even before I'd moved here), and then printed out maps from DCR (pretty useless) and the detailed Hampshire one that's been referenced a number of times here. I took my dog for walks on the trails at B-street a few times (& still do) to do a little recon. The Hampshire map has trail ratings, descriptions, and mileage, and though, yes, it is a little out of date, most of the trails are shown there. With just that & a knowledge of one's usual pace, it's pretty easy to figure out a loop for an hour, two hours, whatever. Neither of these areas is large enough that you really risk getting lost for long, especially if you carry a map and are willing to stop & check it at intersections as you're learning the lay of the land. (If you're not willing to do that, then you should join a group ride, as various people have stated.)

    Also, in one of my now-deleted posts, I provided a pretty specific list of trails at B-street for a specific sort of riding. Had anyone PM'ed me or asked here, I would happily have elaborated that list into a suggested route for whatever kind / duration / etc. of riding that person wanted to do -- as would, I imagine, many others here.

    For that reason, I think Paul's comment that he hopes people stay away from the trails is regrettable. With very few exceptions, most of us didn't initially build the trails we ride, so we all benefit from someone else's sharing of trails with us. In my initial rides at both Earl's and B-street, I got directions and suggestions from riders I met on the trails, learned the names to the trails not on the map, and so forth. And since I've learned the trails myself, I've stopped anytime I see someone who appears to be lost to help them find their way wherever they're trying to go. Mt biking is a pretty fringe sport, and given the pressures on land use, having respectful riders on trails we all like is a good thing.

    Signs won't help in the absence of a map, so I really don't get what the big deal is about knowing the name of a trail if you don't also carry a map showing where it goes -- and if you do carry a map, why do you need the signs? Maps give topographical info (and other info) that a 4"x4" sign cannot provide.

    Finally -- with apologies for the length of this post -- there *are* -- or were, anyway -- some signs at B-street. The doubletrack trail that leads off MN through rooty pine trees toward the bottom of RC (but bypasses the parts of RC that start from the parking lot) used to have a sign saying "Rollercoaster." (It looked like someone made it at home with their router.) I feel like there was a sign at the SG/TE junction as well, maybe with black diamonds on it? These were there last summer, anyway, because I definitely saw them while riding. I don't recall others.

    I will cheerfully ignore all snarky, one-line responses...

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    Not the best rider, not the worst. I will say that I enjoy every inch of b-street and earls. I like the fact that the markings are minimal. I like finding new trails and features. i've gone out there with a map and without. Always managed to get back to the truck with a smile on my face. Been "lost" plenty of times. Let's face it, this isn't alaska, it's western mass. Go a mile in any direction and you hit a road or house. Staying on a well-worn trail is usually a safe bet and you will end up at a major intersection. What I don't like are other riding places that look like video games, bright trail markings on every tree. It's annoying, looks like $hit, and takes away from the experience of being out in the woods. Usually it also brings more people into the trail system that are inherently lazy, and disrespectful of the trails. There are trail "obstacles" or "features" on some other trail systems that I've tried to master for three years, and then someone will come along and remove the obstacle to make the trail "easier" to ride. That is total BS. That type of activity seems to happen more on well marked trails that allow easy access for the lazy and ignorant riding public.

    Save the full sets of detailed instructions for the cubicle life. Get out and get lost in the woods for a couple hours and ride. B-street is marked fine as it is right now. Go sit in the parking lot and watch the people coming back from a lung-searing, technical ride. They're drenched in sweat, sometimes bleeding a little, and always smiling ear to ear......even after riding those "poorly marked" trails!

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by am_dial View Post
    I'd never set foot in the Holyoke Range until last year, when I moved here. I could have gone on group rides, but I prefer to ride alone. So I lurked in this forum, figured out where the local riding was (even before I'd moved here), and then printed out maps from DCR (pretty useless) and the detailed Hampshire one that's been referenced a number of times here. I took my dog for walks on the trails at B-street a few times (& still do) to do a little recon. The Hampshire map has trail ratings, descriptions, and mileage, and though, yes, it is a little out of date, most of the trails are shown there. With just that & a knowledge of one's usual pace, it's pretty easy to figure out a loop for an hour, two hours, whatever. Neither of these areas is large enough that you really risk getting lost for long, especially if you carry a map and are willing to stop & check it at intersections as you're learning the lay of the land. (If you're not willing to do that, then you should join a group ride, as various people have stated.)

    Also, in one of my now-deleted posts, I provided a pretty specific list of trails at B-street for a specific sort of riding. Had anyone PM'ed me or asked here, I would happily have elaborated that list into a suggested route for whatever kind / duration / etc. of riding that person wanted to do -- as would, I imagine, many others here.

    For that reason, I think Paul's comment that he hopes people stay away from the trails is regrettable. With very few exceptions, most of us didn't initially build the trails we ride, so we all benefit from someone else's sharing of trails with us. In my initial rides at both Earl's and B-street, I got directions and suggestions from riders I met on the trails, learned the names to the trails not on the map, and so forth. And since I've learned the trails myself, I've stopped anytime I see someone who appears to be lost to help them find their way wherever they're trying to go. Mt biking is a pretty fringe sport, and given the pressures on land use, having respectful riders on trails we all like is a good thing.

    Signs won't help in the absence of a map, so I really don't get what the big deal is about knowing the name of a trail if you don't also carry a map showing where it goes -- and if you do carry a map, why do you need the signs? Maps give topographical info (and other info) that a 4"x4" sign cannot provide.

    Finally -- with apologies for the length of this post -- there *are* -- or were, anyway -- some signs at B-street. The doubletrack trail that leads off MN through rooty pine trees toward the bottom of RC (but bypasses the parts of RC that start from the parking lot) used to have a sign saying "Rollercoaster." (It looked like someone made it at home with their router.) I feel like there was a sign at the SG/TE junction as well, maybe with black diamonds on it? These were there last summer, anyway, because I definitely saw them while riding. I don't recall others.

    I will cheerfully ignore all snarky, one-line responses...
    Good post-I'm sorry I never got a chance to read your deleted posts. That's sincere and not snarky.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperbMan View Post
    Good post-I'm sorry I never got a chance to read your deleted posts. That's sincere and not snarky.
    Thanks. As the thread went downhill, it seemed not worth debating, but all I really said was that I thought "very technical" and "extremely technical" were overselling B-street a little bit. Some trails certainly meet that definition, but others (I offered a list) are only somewhat technical or only technical in a few short stretches -- and I am hardly the most technically skilled rider.

    I also said I thought Earl's was being undersold in terms of the amount of climbing one tends to do there. Yeah, it can be as flowy as anywhere, but you have to earn it...

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