Hawk Hill 1 - Rear Hub / Dropout Info- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Hawk Hill 1 - Rear Hub / Dropout Info

    So I've been toying with the idea of upgrading the wheels on my HH1. I'm looking at a set of wheels from SpeedGearBike built with Stans Flow MK3 rims and Hope Pro 4 Hubs.

    The front is pretty straight-forward - just get a 100x15 and put it on... same as stock.

    The rear is a bit more involved though from what I can tell and it is just not obvious what I need to get. The specs say that the frame will support a 142x12 thru axle rear wheel. The stock wheel is actually a 135 QR and has some adapters on each side of the axle as well as some plastic/aluminum pieces on the QR skewer and the dropouts for mounting.

    I'm trying to figure out what else I need to get to mount a 142x12 thru axle hub to this frame. If I buy this wheel I assume that I need to also get a 142x12 thru axle because I don't think that it comes with the wheel.

    One question is: what does this axle thread into? It looks like the cap/spacer for the QR on the drive-side dropout must be removed - is this side of the dropout threaded to accept the axle directly? Or do I need some sort of cap on this side to accommodate the threads on the axle?

    Second question: is there some sort of cone or washer that needs to go on the axle prior to insertion into the non-drive-side dropout? The QR has a plastic washer/adapter on that side, I assume that the thru-axle will require something as well. None of the axles that I see come with this sort of hardware though - where would I obtain this?

    So there you go. Surely some of you Hawk Hill 1 owners have done a rear wheel upgrade... Anyone?

  2. #2
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    I do not own a Hawk Hill, rather a Rift Zone 2, so I am going completely on hearsay here. Somewhere along the line (but I can't find anymore) i saw something about the adapter and was of the understanding that once the skewer and its bits were removed, and the loos-ish parts of the dropouts and hub endcaps also removed, it was ready to go with a 12mm thru axle. Lube the threads and go. Different hub endcaps might be needed, though, not sure.

    You can get a variety of 12x142 axles, some with QR style levers, if they'll fit.

  3. #3
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    Thanks for the quick reply. I think that the HH and RZ do use the same frame/dropouts so you are probably right. It really should be that simple and it may be that I'm imagining that it is more complicated.

    I did look at some of the thru-axles out there and there seems to be many many different lengths specified for 142mm hubs. Also, I've found at least 3 different thread pitches out there - 1mm, 1.5mm, and 1.75mm. So it turns out that it is a bit more complicated...

    I found a site called Robert Axle Project as well. I plugged in the specific Bike info including the make (Marin) and it presented a Lighting axle that was 172mm long with 1.5mm thread pitch as the one that I needed. It is nice and light but a bit pricey and I'd like an integrated lever if possible.

    So I guess I need to just remove the wheel on my bike, then remove all of the QR pieces and see what's left. I bet that the drive side is threaded so I'll have to verify that it is 1.5mm pitch. Then guess I'll just have to order an axle that matches the length (at least within a mm or two) and the measured pitch.

    Anyone else have experience with this? I expect that all of the "MultiTrac" models (Hawk Hill, B17, and Rift Zone) have the same dropout arrangement. The higher end models (2s and 3s) probably come with the 142x12mm thru axle already. Does anyone have the details on the stock thru-axle?

  4. #4
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    Actually, no no help on that. The Rift Zone is boost 12x148 rear, as are most/all of the 2/3 levels.

    Personally, I went straight from 9mmQR to 12mm boost, so I am unfamiliar with the idiosyncrasies of 12x142. I note that the hubs are Formula, but it is the frame/dropouts that specify the length. I do note that some 12mm axles have a "nut," while others seem to be longer and intended to thread directly into the dropout? It might make sense that with the 9QR "insert" the "nut type" axle is used, which seems to include 1.5 threading.

    You could call or email Marin. They've been responsive and helpful with a couple of questions I have had.

  5. #5
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    Thanks again for the reply. Ok, that makes sense that the higher levels use boost spacing nowadays.

    I did send a message to Marin on their "contact us" page. It's still early out in CA so I haven't heard back from them yet. Hopefully they can either sell me an axle or point me toward one that isn't too terribly pricey...

  6. #6
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    Here is the reply I got from customer service

    Hi here are the shimano compatible axles, AX58 or according to Shimano AX78 is also compatible.
    -Thanks
    -Ian

    Ian McElroy
    Global Warranty Manager
    415-382-6000 ext. 103
    265 Bel Marin Keys ,
    Novato , CA 94949
    United States

    I can pull the axle tonight and get the Length and Pitch off the markings.
    All I did was removed the 9mm adapter on the drive side of the frame, it is already tapped for the 12mm
    Go over the Obstacles, Not around them.

  7. #7
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    Thanks for the info.

    I just got a reply from Ian @ Marin a short while ago. He said that "a Shimano AX-MT500 142mm version axle will work just fine".

    I've seen the AX-58 and AX-78 axles at a few places including Amazon. I guess I will look for these and see what the dimensions are.

  8. #8
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    It appears that the AX58 and AX78 are discontinued by Shimano. It kind of looks like the AX56 and AX76 are the replacements.

    I sent a note to Ian to see if they are compatible with the HH1.

  9. #9
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    Looking at the Shimano corporate site, no the 58 and 56 and 78 and 76 are not interchangeable. The 56 and 76 use a nut and have a longer by 5mm axle for their "E-thru" axle system. I dunno what the e-thru axle is, but yeah, according to their corporate site, the AX-MT700 is the same size as the AX58 and 78.

    https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-AX-MT700-I-TYPE-Mountain-Bicycle/dp/B073JFFCVG?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag =duckduckgo-ffab-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creative ASIN=B073JFFCVG


    This might work too, but says the thread length is 9mm, where everything else is 15?
    https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-AX-MT...SIN=B073JG3HTR

    Bike "standards" are utterly insane.

    Sorry this is turning into a goosechase.

  10. #10
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    You are correct. I looked closer and they are different. Crazy... this should be much simpler than it is.

    I guess I will order the AX-MT500 since that is the one that Ian @ Marin said would work. I'll report back when I get the axle and wheels - hopefully it will all come together.

    Thanks again for the insight and info.

  11. #11
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    I pulled my axle out of the bike it's a SM-AX58.
    The markings on it are "M12xP1.5 Length 166".
    I measured the thread length at 9mm.
    You can go about 1 to 2 mm longer on the axle length before sticks out beyond the frame.
    Go over the Obstacles, Not around them.

  12. #12
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    Awesome, thanks for the info. I went ahead and ordered the AX-MT500 as it is the same size as you note - 166mm in length.

    It seems to be the SLX version of this axle and maybe the replacement for the AX58. There is also a AX-MT700 axle and it seems to be the Deore XT version. They are the exact same dimensions but the 700 is all black and has a slightly different shape handle.

    Thanks again. Hopefully I'll have it in a week or so.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbf909 View Post
    Awesome, thanks for the info. I went ahead and ordered the AX-MT500 as it is the same size as you note - 166mm in length.

    It seems to be the SLX version of this axle and maybe the replacement for the AX58. There is also a AX-MT700 axle and it seems to be the Deore XT version. They are the exact same dimensions but the 700 is all black and has a slightly different shape handle.

    Thanks again. Hopefully I'll have it in a week or so.
    Yep, I saw that with reference to the AX58/78. One was one level and one was another. Looked to be otherwise the same. And the 5x/7x difference seemed to be all-black vs. black and gray/silver metal. Maybe anodized all the way.

    Bizarro. Glad it got sorted. Kind of good to know that one 12x142 thru-axle is not the same as another. I don't know if the Boosts might be or not.

  14. #14
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    Just curious, do you think the frame will accept 2.6 tires?

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

  15. #15
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    Probably depends on the tire and the rim you are using.

    The 2.35 Hans Dampfs that come stock on the HH have a bit of room on the fork and the frame - they measure 2.43mm mounted on Stans Flow rims on my bike. I've noticed scratch marks on the frame right where the side knobs are. This may be from rocks that are picked up by the tire and pinch in the frame.

    While an ACTUAL 2.6mm tire may fit, it will probably rub when cornering and will definitely pinch trail mud and rocks worse that the stock tires.

    Unless they were road type tires with very little tread, I would not go to a 2.6. 2.4 is about a wide as I would be comfortable.

    Others may have different experience though...

  16. #16
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    Im also curious with HH1 rear mount. Is it possible to post photos when you upgrade to 142x12?

    Sent from my ASUS_X00QD using Tapatalk

  17. #17
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    Thanks to dbf909 for the PM on this old thread. Replaced cassette, wheels (Mavic 424), rotors, and pedals on my 14 year old son's bike. Kept tires and turned them tubeless. Started at 32.26lbs and ended up just over 31.00. Feels like most of it came off the rear end. The 12X142 fit prefect with the AX-MT700 axle.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by b622r View Post
    Thanks to dbf909 for the PM on this old thread. Replaced cassette, wheels (Mavic 424), rotors, and pedals on my 14 year old son's bike. Kept tires and turned them tubeless. Started at 32.26lbs and ended up just over 31.00. Feels like most of it came off the rear end. The 12X142 fit prefect with the AX-MT700 axle.
    Awesome. Glad it worked for you.

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