Yinding or similar with dynamo hub?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Yinding or similar with dynamo hub?

    First off, I'm pretty new to lights and off-road night riding so try not to laugh too hard.

    Long story short, I plan on getting a SON dynamo hub eventually so I always have power, but because of budget constraints that's about a year away at best, so I'm looking for something I can use in the meantime.

    I've been reading about lots of quality lights that can be run off battery packs and am curious if they can be easily adapted to run off a dynamo hub when the time comes. I'd prefer if I could power the lights off the dynamo directly, but would also be interested if its possible to recharge battery packs from a hub so I wouldn't need to carry an obscene amount for an extended night ride.

    I'm currently using USB rechargeable lights from Serfas and Light & Motion which I charge from a Goal Zero Guide 10 solar charger when commuting and touring. A big part of why I like this setup is that it will plug into a dynamo setup down the road so I wont have a bunch of extra stuff to buy or carry.

    Can one of the modern battery powered LED setups be adapted to a dynamo/USB powered setup? Any thoughts from people who know what they're talking about?

    -Nick

  2. #2
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    Not quite answering your question, but have a look at klite's, website. Kerry produces various dynamo and USB driven options. His facebook page has more info too. https://www.facebook.com/kLite.com.au

    Tim

  3. #3
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    I dont know much about dynamo hubs but seems 6v, 3w output give or take hub pending. No where near enough to run a bt21, yinding or anything like that. They run @ minimum about 7v-8.4v and at 2-3A current draw in high. Talking 10W.

    Now where and how long are you riding? Ones like nitefighter lights and yindings on low and medium setting can last for a few hours on a charge in a 4 cell pack. Get a quality 6 cell and your talking 8hrs+ on a charge easily.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    I dont know much about dynamo hubs but seems 6v, 3w output give or take hub pending. No where near enough to run a bt21, yinding or anything like that. They run @ minimum about 7v-8.4v and at 2-3A current draw in high. Talking 10W.

    Now where and how long are you riding? Ones like nitefighter lights and yindings on low and medium setting can last for a few hours on a charge in a 4 cell pack. Get a quality 6 cell and your talking 8hrs+ on a charge easily.
    I guess that's why you see more dynamos on road setups than mtb.

    8 hours is probably right around what I'm likely to use for most trips, but I'd like the ability to ride several hours a night for a few nights between charges. It might be a single dawn to dusk ride, or it might be several days on tour where the days are too short or two hot to happen when the sun is up.

  5. #5
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    Ya your probably looking at a pricey hub to get power requirements you need. and then the best hubs Ive found (this thread had me curious) is 5W avg, speed pending. So your going to be talking specific lights for use with dynamo hub as drivers have to be designed for the purpose. And power that we see from ours on packs you wont get.

    I know its more things to keep tracking of but a couple 6 or 8 cell panasonic packs, a yinding, bt21 (or actually a BT40 would be even better, almost as much light at lower power settings but fair bit less power requirements) and you could go for a few days between charges as long as you conserve your battery. I couldnt imaging pushing a dynamo hub around trails. the little added weight of 2 battery packs would be nothing compared dragging one of those around lol.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickandBruce View Post
    I guess that's why you see more dynamos on road setups than mtb.

    8 hours is probably right around what I'm likely to use for most trips, but I'd like the ability to ride several hours a night for a few nights between charges. It might be a single dawn to dusk ride, or it might be several days on tour where the days are too short or two hot to happen when the sun is up.
    I bet theres quite a few dyno setups out here:
    Race Tracker | Tour Divide

    If you just want a moderate amount of light you can just toss the driver and substitute with a smoothing cap and rectifier. The light will drive at 500mA from 10kph and you'll have enough light to ride by down to around 5-6kph.

    If you want to double the light swap out the XML leds for 6V XMLs and use circuit 9 here to drive it, like running 4 single LEDs. You'll need to house the electronics in a separate box.
    Dynamo LED Light Systems for Bicycles (electronic circuits)

  7. #7
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    Well I'm kinda disqualified from answering your question, N&B, because I don't know what I'm talking about, but here are a couple of items that might work together off a dynamo hub for you.

    http://www.kaidomain.com/product/details.S023820

    Amazon.com: BioLogic Reecharge Dynamo Kit: Sports & Outdoors

    Yinding or similar with dynamo hub?-image.jpgName:  image.jpg
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    I'm assuming that this lamp can be charged and run at the same time, as it has both in and out ports. You might want to confirm before ordering though!

    Little problem with the KD is that it is only available in Cool White (as are all the budget 4.2V lamps I've seen so far.) Dunno how big a deal it might be to swap out or reflow the emitters to Neutral White, if that kinda thing is important to you. Think tigris picked up this lamp but without the battery pack so he should know. Triangular screwheads on face plate most likely TA23. Also you'd probably want to upgrade the battery to higher capacity Panasonic or Samsungs, if possible. No idea if user serviceable, whether there's a wired pack inside or loose cells. BioLogic also offers their own power pack but it's only 1600mAh (though that might be max capacity you'd be able to generate from a dynamo riding all day) and kinda pricey, they sell it for around $100.

    Other expensive option might be to go with a [4.2V] Fenix lamp, rechargeable over USB. Only holds two cells (generally not included) but they are loose so you could get the highest quality/capacity, keep a couple spares as reserve. And of course all Fenix are Neutral White, the beam pattern is great and the lamps operate at high efficiency. Can be run quite long on the lower settings.
    Last edited by andychrist; 06-21-2015 at 07:11 AM.

  8. #8
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    Have a read through the Peter White pages on dynamo hubs and lights. Lots of roadie specific info but he's been a distributor of dynamo lighting for a long while.

    Schmidt SON hubs are pretty much the gold standard. They are the best but with that comes a hefty price tag. Schmidt lights are also pretty much the gold standard, at least on the road.

    Shimano makes a good budget all around hub that will not break the bank.

    Supernova makes a hub that is gaining in popularity. They also make some pretty sweet looking lights that get used on many custom builds. That said they don't manufacture the hubs and the Schmidt eDelux II light seems to have consistently better reviews.

    Shutter Precision manufactures the Supernova hub and sells hubs under their own label. I just had a wheel built with a Shutter Precision dynamo hub with 15mm thru axle. This hub comes with an axle conversion bit that allows the hub to be used with regulate 9mm axles as well. I will pair the hub with a Schmidt eDelux II light. This set up will work on my Niner RIP9 ROD and on my on/off road drop bar mountain road bike thing. In time I'll get a USB charging station.

    Good luck with your research.
    I thought of that while riding my bicycle. ~ Albert Einstein on the theory of relativity

  9. #9
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    Revo also make one of their light's available for dynamos: Exposure Revo Dynamo Light Only | Chain Reaction Cycles

    If you look around you'll see some package deals that include the dynamo. I think this is a re-branded shutter precision dynamo.

    It's a couple of years ago, but here's a blog on using an earlier version. bigrobracing.co.uk: Racing on a Dynamo - Charging My GPS, A Bright Light and Some Very Special Hub Dynamo Wheels

    Tim

  10. #10
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    Thanks for the link to kLite! I've actually already read most of the other stuff.

    I'm getting my Krampus ready for some bikepacking and EVENTUALLY I'm going to be running a dynamo to keep my GPS and iPhone going when outlets aren't available so I don't consider the hub when I'm weighing dynamo vs battery. I already have a Serfas TSL 500 and Light & Motion Urban 800 that I could use to supplement something like the kLite. It's really the price difference of the lights for the same power that gets me more than anything. I should probably dive into the DIY forum and see if I can figure out how to build or modify a similar setup.

  11. #11
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    I'd really like the get a battery powered setup for use until I get the dynamo. I could try to modify the light itself when I get the dynamo, or I could just use something like this:

    XTAR VC4 Universal 4 Channels LCD Ni - Mh Li - ion Battery Charger Compatible with USB / Wall Adapter-27.22 and Free Shipping| GearBest.com

    &

    Solarstorm New 2S2P 8.4V 2000mAh Dual Water - resistant 4 x 18650 External Battery Pack for Bicycle Light Digital Device-10.69 and Free Shipping| GearBest.com

    and a spare set of batteries which I could just rotate through the charger.

  12. #12
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    That setup would work but you have to watch it with the case, the protection is a half finished circuit. Some of us have modded them. As long as you balance charge (like that charger) and don't over discharge the case will work fine. DONT GET CHEAP CELLS. Brand name cells only or you'll just be wasting funds.

  13. #13
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    You know what, I just got a light in for review today that might work for you.

    Fenix BC30R. Not as cheap as the others but:

    Plenty of light and lots of run time on lower modes.

    Battery level indicator with actual time displayed as runtime remaining

    USB CHARGEABLE, the big point of what you were needing.

    Hope that helps because modding the other lights wont work just do to voltage requirements. This one will work now and later for you. Its a really nice quality light.

  14. #14
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    Tigris you are a bit out with your maths, but not to worry.

    There are fundamental differences between batteries & dynamo hubs that call for different solutions. A system designed for one, is not going to work well on another.

    A battery produces a fixed voltage for a given state of charge - as the charge decreases, so does the voltage, hence the range of 8.4-7v. The electronics needed for the light must limit the current to each LED - eg an XM-L is specified as needing less than 3A. At 10W each LED would be getting somewhere around 1.7A.

    As Znomit says, dynamo hubs deliver a pretty much constant 0.5A. I am aware of dynamos that deliver less power, I am not aware of any bike dynamo that delivers more. A bike dynamo will however deliver lots of voltage, provided the wheel is spinning fast enough. The higher road speeds is one reason they are more often found on the road than the trails.

    There are a number of solutions for getting more light from a dynamo hub, but the easiest one is more leds. Znomits suggestion of 2 x 6v XM-Ls is a good one. An option I played with was using 2 x triple XP-E2 leds, but it is a trade off - more light at 25km/h = less light at 10 km/h. I added a manual switch to turn 3 leds on or off, but ultimately went back to using 4 leds.

  15. #15
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    Actually my math is almost dead on, your rating based on battery voltage, not Vf (forward voltage of the emitters). 10W is 2.8A at xm-l2 Vf of 3.4v. Drivers in these lights step down the voltage to keep below maximum rated Vf. Pack voltage means absolutely nothing in the wattage calculations for these lights. Driver controls all that.

    My recommendation in my previous post is purely for the fact of op can extend run time and charge during the day via the USB while maintaining XM-L2 high output.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    ....Drivers in these lights step down the voltage to keep below maximum rated Vf.
    Assuming that the drivers in the lights you are referring to are current regulating drivers, this should really say "Drivers in these lights step down the voltage to maintain selected current level". The driver has no idea what the maximum Vf of the LED connected to it is. All it does is limit the output voltage to the point that the selected current (Amperage) is flowing to the LED.

    Some drivers are not true current regulators. Simple PWM drivers fall into this category. A change in Vf of the LED will result in a change in current too. If your driver measures voltage drop across a current sense resistor as feedback to the current control circuit or MCU, it is a true current regulator. It won't care if you connect a red led with a Vf of 1.4 or an XML with a Vf of 3.2, the current selected will remain constant.
    Last edited by Vancbiker; 06-23-2015 at 11:20 PM. Reason: fix bad HTML tag
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  17. #17
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    Ah see I thought the point of buck was to step down voltage. I guess in some drivers "direct drive" that would be the case. I thought all of these were buck on 8.4v packs???

  18. #18
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    A buck driver does reduce voltage to regulate the current to the LED. It just has to reduce it more if the LED Vf is low to maintain the desired current. A good example happened on one of my microlights. They have 2 XPG emitters in series configuration for a Vf of about 6.6 with the driver providing 1A on high from a nominal 11.1 battery. On the first use, one emitter died with an internal short so the Vf dropped to about 3.3. The driver still provided 1A to the remaining good LED, the light just lost half its output.

    Direct drive occurs when the V of the battery is equal to, or less than, the Vf of the LED. Direct drive can also occur when the battery can not provide as much current as the LED can tolerate. AAA powered single emitter flashlights are a good example. The batteries in a 3S configuration are 4.5V. That's about 1V higher than the Vf of the LED. The LED doesn't smoke because the battery can not deliver enough current to exceed the maximum current capability of the LED.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    Actually my math is almost dead on, your rating based on battery voltage, not Vf (forward voltage of the emitters). 10W is 2.8A at xm-l2 Vf of 3.4v.
    I don't know about your yinding, but mine has 2 leds & double the leds = double the power (2.8 x 3.4 x 2 = 19W) or to keep the same power, less current (1.6 x 3.2 x 2 = 10W)

  20. #20
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    Yinding doesnt pull 2.8A, well most dont, and mine pulls 3A I was referring to bt21 which runs at 2.8A.

    However, ya your correct on that, I should have been more clear. I was referring to draw off the pack. So power requirement to run the light. Appreciate you pointing that detail out (saves a bit of confusion) that its 19W at the emitters. Just didnt cross my mind as i didnt think it mattered for what the OP needed to know.

  21. #21
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    So I'm going to try working with a Light and Motion Urban 850 Trail on the helmet and a Serfas TSL S500+ on the fork crown for now. Most of my night riding will either be bikepacking or bailing out from a longer than planned ride, so not very fast.

    I'm using a 4xAA Goal Zero Guide 10 solar charging setup to extend my power right now but plan on building a dynamo wheel and moving my backup power to that, eventually adding something like the k-Lite setup and leaving behind whatever battery powered lights I don't need anymore. If I feel like I need more lighting then I'll likely migrate from the AA to an 18650 cell based battery backup and add one of the really popular lights mentioned in these forums.

    The Fenix looks interesting but I work at a Light and Motion dealer and liked the reviews, compact design, and employee price. I haven't had a chance to take it out yet, but it feels and looks good out of the box.

  22. #22
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    Honestly, I'd just go with the B&M Luxos U. It's pretty bright with a very useful beam spread and will charge your USB devices. It's a little pricey but I've been very, very pleased with mine. Supplant it with a helmet light and you'll be set.

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