True lumen testing - Lupine vs. Light&Motion!!!- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Idea! True lumen testing - Lupine vs. Light&Motion!!!

    Independent optical verification performed by www.deepsea.com

    http://www.bikelights.com/info.asp?uid=358

    Lupine Tesla
    lumens (claimed): 700
    lumens (actual): 492.1104
    Accuracy: 70.3%

    Lupine Betty
    lumens (claimed) 1400
    lumens (actual): 784.0381
    Accuracy: 56.0%

    Hope Vision 4
    lumens (claimed): 960
    lumens (actual): 608.97
    Accuracy: 63.4%

    Cygolite Tridentx
    lumens (claimed): 600
    lumens (actual): 381.7637
    Accuracy: 63.6%

    Niterider Minewt USD
    lumens (claimed): 110
    lumens (actual): 97.3741
    Accuracy: 88.5%

    Light&Motion Seca 900
    lumens (claimed): 900
    lumens (actual): 953.4991
    Accuracy: 106%

    Thanks L&M!

  2. #2
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    So the Seca 900 turns out to be brighter than a Lupine Betty? Wow.
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  3. #3
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    I'll play Devil's Advocate....

    Let's see some beamshots....Lumen testing is pretty silly and misleading in my opinion. That is like putting a "measuring" device right in front of a lens to capture the most focused part of a beam coming right of of the lens.

    A true and representative test occurs (and is useful to consumers) when we test the beams and see the illumination, distance, beam pattern, and beam color on a trail. That translates to real-life experience.

    So when this Lumen testing was done, were there any practical tests done and any beamshots captured? Who performed the test and how?

  4. #4
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    also need to consider battery life... are those claims accurate?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    I'll play Devil's Advocate....

    Let's see some beamshots....Lumen testing is pretty silly and misleading in my opinion. That is like putting a "measuring" device right in front of a lens to capture the most focused part of a beam coming right of of the lens.

    A true and representative test occurs (and is useful to consumers) when we test the beams and see the illumination, distance, beam pattern, and beam color on a trail. That translates to real-life experience.

    So when this Lumen testing was done, were there any practical tests done and any beamshots captured? Who performed the test and how?
    Read the links.
    Lumen testing is actually the opposite of what you described.

  6. #6
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    On the contrary, I didn't describe lumen testing at all. I prefer testing lights on the trail, where it matters...and I'll leave the lumen testing to others....I just have better ways to test lights.

    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    Read the links.
    Lumen testing is actually the opposite of what you described.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    On the contrary, I didn't describe lumen testing at all. I prefer testing lights on the trail, where it matters...and I'll leave the lumen testing to others....I just have better ways to test lights.
    Its the opposite of a lux reading which is what you described:
    That is like putting a "measuring" device right in front of a lens to capture the most focused part of a beam coming right of of the lens.

    But yes, only gives part of the story.
    Lumen testing is essentially the same as HP in cars.
    MPG and 0-100 may be more useful to the driver.

    Regardless, if you're going to provide specs for your lights they need to be correct, especially at the premium lupine price. These ones aren't even in the ballpark.

  8. #8
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    I think we are talking about two different things. Some are concerned about claimed and standardized testing. I think most or many makers simply take the LED manufacturer's claimed output and multiply it by number of LED or measure lumens in some way if a reflector is involved (Tesla or ARC, for example).

    So if Cree says each LED produces 200 Lumens, a 5 Cree LED light is claimed to produce 1,000 lumens. That same light can be diffused evenly through a lens (like a wide car headlight) or made to produce a really concentrated beam (with way more reach) though a reflector or through a special lens. So I'd rather test my lights on the trail, though I see why some would like to see standardized lumen output testing.

    I am much more interested in practical testing and use claimed lumens simply as one data point. I prefer to look at beamshots when comparing and try to capture some of my own. I also like to ride with the light to see if it has a concentrated hotspot or if the peripheral beam is wide enough and transitions well from the main beam. I think lenses and reflectors can change the beam enough to where it can be very diffused or very concentrated so lumens can't be relied upon that much unless you are looking at the same lenses or reflectors between different lights. That said, I am sure some lumen claims are overdone but again, I'll figure it out through beamshots and practical testig/reviews, as should any buyer. Now I sound like a light geek!!
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    I think this is going to get really interesting. I've been saying for a while that Lupine is going to be feeling some serious competitive pressure and will be compelled to reduce pricing. This is a major shot across the bow.

    Here's how it I think it will go -

    1. Study is published. DONE.
    2. There will be the arguments made by users that "well, I know differently...." and will turn out to be largely subjective and not verifiable data. STARTING NOW.
    3. Lupine will either (a) try and refute; a poor tactic or (b) change the rules of the game (make a big push on some other issue and attempt to hold their price premium); a better choice if they want to try and hold on to their premium - or at least some of it.
    4. Lupine will lower price in face of competitive pressure. If they can't do this through cost reductions or other avenues, then they will be forced to sell unprofitably or retire from the market.

    How many times have we seen this played out? Ask Sony about Walkmans. Or Palm about smartphones.

    J.

  10. #10
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    More competition simply produces better products. Each light plays out on the trail- nobody will bother much with refuting or championing anything but each will simply produce better and better products. Lupine is a high-end player and people who buy them don't care as much about price. Dinotte is more of a value play. I don't like Nite Riders myself but they have sold well. Local shops move Lupines as well. Dinottes sell well too, as more of a value brand...as do some others. Very rarely do these buyers ask for lumen ratings and tests. At best, they get recommendations from friends or light them up in a dark room at the shop or the parking lot after dark.

    I like the competition...makes everyone up their game and that is always good for us...the night riders.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    More competition simply produces better products. Each light plays out on the trail- nobody will bother much with refuting or championing anything but each will simply produce better and better products. Lupine is a high-end player and people who buy them don't care as much about price. Dinotte is more of a value play. I don't like Nite Riders myself but they have sold well. Local shops move Lupines as well. Dinottes sell well too, as more of a value brand...as do some others. Very rarely do these buyers ask for lumen ratings and tests. At best, they get recommendations from friends or light them up in a dark room at the shop or the parking lot after dark.

    I like the competition...makes everyone up their game and that is always good for us...the night riders.
    But often not by the same players who started it all. It's hard for companies used to high margins found in expanding markets to scale back when the competitors figure out how to make it better and cheaper and the market matures.

    The point you missed is when the competition comes up with an equivalent solution at a cheaper price, then suddenly all those who swore never ending loyalty to the brand suddenly aren't around anymore.

    Presuming this testing is accurate (I believe it is) AND you just know there have to be more lights about to pop with more capability at a lower price. Then Lupine needs to be dropping their pricing dramatically this fall or they will lose market share quickly. The proper strategy would be for them to lead the market down and to make barriers to entry for competitors by removing the ability to recoup investment. Unfortunately, most companies don't do this and try and survive by holding their margins up when they should have been looking at ways to make their businesses more efficient and leaving no room for their competitors.

    We'll see what happens here shortly.

    J.

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    For L&M to play the lumen-counting game while leaving their product's shortcomings unaddressed is a bit disappointing. That's my take on it. Their new mounts are disappointing (particularly for helmet use, but bar use as well), and the Seca control button is vague, to name two things that would be relatively easy to fix without a full redesign. I could name some more. Seems like they've gotten heavier on the marketing side of the marketing/engineering see-saw.

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    L&M is a bit annoyed since the ARC used to be the king (well, Queen...second to NR) of high-sales HIDs. They really had some awesome beam patterns. The Seca has a lot of catching up to do. In the LED arena, L&M was late to the game and showed up with okay-ish lights. They do still have some good engineers and I expect they will improve their offerings. I was a huge ARC fan but they are mid-pack now and there are too many superior choices. The new L&M lights are clunky, heavy, and not cheap either. They are still being outsold by the cheaper Nite Riders and are trying to go after the high-end market without really being high-end anymore. If yoiu ask the shops that sell L&ms, most will tell you that they don't sell anywhere near the volume of ARCs they used to sell. The two-ARC setup is still a common sight here in Colorado and second to Nite Rider, (ARCs are way better) the most common HIDs.

    Heck, when the Wilma first came out, I said the ARC beam pattern was superior for a one-light setup even though the Wilma was brighter. They know reflectors but don't know compactness and weight and mounts. I can't figure out why- they did such a fantastic job with the ARCs.

  14. #14
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    First of all, I am not any kind of authority on light testing. That being said, I always view these types of test results with skepticism. Evidently L&M hired the cited firm (Deepsea) to conduct an experiment comparing lumens of L&M lights with others. I looked at the graphs that plot something called uW/nm on nm. L&M claims the area under curve (i.e., integrate the function between two given values of nm described by the curve) is "more light" and imply more area means more lumens. But we have no way of knowing if the results are significant. Most experimental designs take into account replication, which means you average the results of several tests. Impecision in testing procedures means you need to replicate results to identify whether the observations are really true or a consequence of random experimenal error (anybody remember "cold fusion?"). The form of the results, for example Cygo Tridenx has 381.7637 lumens, implies a level of precision that I suspect is not really there. L&M cites an important feature of the data is that the lights were tested to a NIST standard. What that means is that the contract lab has periodically calibrated their testing instrument using some device that is traceable to a NIST standard. That means that their test results are reliable. Clearly that is a good thing, but just because your equipment is calibrated doesn't mean that your experiment and its analysis is correct. As long as they are citing NIST, they should have cited the test method used (ASTM, ANSI, or whatever) so we could properly couch the results. I would imagine there must be various methods of measuring lumens and probably each method means something a little different. Another issue is that this is not really an independent study, and to their credit L&M is careful not to claim that it was. I think L&M just hired a lab to run tests and it could be more accurately described as independent testing. An independent study means L&M would have turned everything over to a independent firm to conduct the study. Maybe they did that, but it's not what the info says. An independent study would be a lot more credible. Such testing would be blind, i.e, the testing firm does not know whose lights they are testing. There should have been a placebo (for example, an L&M light with "lumens" purposely dialed down to see whether the testing caught it) used so that we could judge the reasonableness of their data and experiment. Similarly, it would make most sense for the independent lab to collect the lights to be tested. Maybe they did that. Probably the best evaluation would have been for the independent lab to test lights that been in service for a given period of time.

    Lastly, these results would mean a lot more if they were published in a peer reviewed professional journal. I would not normally bring that up, but somebody above mentioned that the study was "published" which probably is not true. If L&M is going to market their products with what they want us to think is a sophisticated scientific study, then I believe it is fair that their science be questioned. Maybe I missed it, but this experiment is not even mentioned on the deepsea.com web site much less published. If this study has been accepted by and published in a credible, peer reviewed journal, then I gladly stand corrected on all my points.

    Bob
    "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." - Neil Kendall

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    Do you honestly think that the average consumer of these lights cares if it is a "peer reviewed journal?" (or even knows what that is.) They will take these messages back with varying degrees of agreement but it will definitely leave the perception (and, therefore, reality) that Lupine is not what they say they are.

    This is about marketing, you can diss it all you like, but it will have an impact on the marketing. In this sort of stuff, every action generates a reaction from the competition. Until now, Lupine has owned the high lumen output high premium corner of the market. For years, nobody could touch them. They will need to respond or it will be tantamount to giving up that market space to these guys. What can their response be? That will be the interesting part.

    My bet is that they did this well so that it will be tough to argue with. The response will need to be something else. If it gets into technospeak from Lupine, these guys win because it will be "me too" and now Lupine doesn't own the differentiator anymore.

    J.

  16. #16
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    L&M must know that Lupine and others have the money to make them look like fools and prove them wrong with their own (perhaps independent) testing.

    Like JohnJ80 says, L&M must have done a very accurate test for that very reason...........
    ..........if they didn't they are fools and the other light makers will never let them forget it.

  17. #17
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    Exactly right. None of these companies are large companies so there are no GE size war chests to fight protracted battles. This should play out quickly. If Lupine doesn't answer quickly with a powerful argument they will lose the title of being the brightest - a big piece of their ability to charge such a high premium.

    J.

  18. #18
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    Test Conditions

    So I cruised over the Lupine forum and found this posted by a German rider. I have cut/pasted so I hope nobody has a problem with that since we should hear all sides.


    ================================================== ==============
    So, with a little help from a friend who owns a SECA and some test equipment I could find out a little bit more.

    The SECA uses a PTC for temperature regulation which works like a level sensor and a switch.
    The lamp starts with 19,5 W (measured) and has an outstanding light output for the first 1 to 2 minutes. Than the temperature exceeds the switch level of the PTC (even in a test with a cooling fan) and the lamp regulates down to 7,9W with an visibly lower output.
    As a result of this regulation technique the SECA has a very high output even in the lumen-measurement sphere for approximately 1 or 2 minutes which is enough for the measurement.
    The LED’s and electronics are overheated in this moment (you could smell it) which decreases the lifetime of the lamp. Not good for a 700$ product.

    Lupine uses a NTC which works like a sensor which continuously measures the temperature and regulates the light output to prevent the LED’s and the electronics.
    As a result in a closed room like the lumen-measurement sphere without any airflow the Betty regulates the output down immediately after switched on. This prevents the electronics from overheating as fast as possible.
    So it is almost impossible to measure the maximum output properly in a lab because of the influence of the test equipment to the test result.

    On the other hand this does not mean that the Lupine also regulates the power on the trail down to the same level. The CNC-machined aluminum body is not to show off but works as a heat sink (like the cooler in your PC) an with the airflow which usually is on the trail the temperature in the lamp is much lower than it would be in a similar lamp with a plastic body.

    My conclusion is, that the SECA is constructed for better test results in the lab but not for better beams on the trail.

    By the way, I couldn’t find out why L&M tested an two year old model of the Betty. The current version was improved in output and temperature regulation.


    Greetings from Germany

    Jörg
    ================================================== ============

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    Just like a thought. If this is their response then they have just lost their position as the "bright guy." and have been "me too-ed."

    J.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    Do you honestly think that the average consumer of these lights cares if it is a "peer reviewed journal?" (or even knows what that is.) They will take these messages back with varying degrees of agreement but it will definitely leave the perception (and, therefore, reality) that Lupine is not what they say they are.

    This is about marketing, you can diss it all you like, but it will have an impact on the marketing. In this sort of stuff, every action generates a reaction from the competition. Until now, Lupine has owned the high lumen output high premium corner of the market. For years, nobody could touch them. They will need to respond or it will be tantamount to giving up that market space to these guys. What can their response be? That will be the interesting part.

    My bet is that they did this well so that it will be tough to argue with. The response will need to be something else. If it gets into technospeak from Lupine, these guys win because it will be "me too" and now Lupine doesn't own the differentiator anymore.

    J.
    Of course, you are exactly right, nobody cares about peer reviewed journals on this forum. Again, I only brought it up because you said the study was "published." I'm guessing you probably meant "advertised" or "posted." Actually I agree with you, it's for sure marketing and may or may not be good science. Somewhere on here it was said that competition would result in better products. I agree with that. Along those same lines, I might add that more critically thinking consumers (who try to understand and be wary of and call BS on marketing hype) sometimes result in better products.

    In any case, good discussion.

    Bob
    "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." - Neil Kendall

  21. #21
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    Hi Bob - we agree.

    I didn't mean to sound like I was demeaning the idea of a the need for an objective review of light performance. That would be great for sure.

    I agree that competition will bring better and lower cost lights in this case as the market moves from embryonic to more mature. I guess my point is that it may not be/probably won't be the current leaders. We've seen this play out in the tech markets so many times. Sony with Walkmans, Kodak with Film, Union Pacific with transportation, Palm with smart phones, etc... I'd suggest that this time around, with this pretty niche market it will be Lupine with Bike Lights unless they start a fast downward price move and avoid the "me-too" corner.

    J.

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    Seems like a classic case of adjusting the test conditions to end up with the result you want. So basically, the heat management system of the Lupine kicks in fast as intended and drops the lumen output. Why? It appears the answer is no airflow.

    What is strange is that the Seca does this as well and is a significant drop but not for the duration of the test...1-2 minutes, I gather. So once the test time-fame is complete, the Seca drops its lumen rating significantly but voila...the test is over. Nice test condition and one well paid for, I assume.

    Maybe a better test would be to run cooling airflow and measure the lumens then? Would that maybe be a bit more realistic?

    Also, could someone with a Seca see how they work in the rain? You can see light seeping out of the plastic seams and even catch a glimpse of the circuitry under the fins at the back. Since we are talking about L&M doing some testing, let's do some real-life testing. Are they even considered weather-resistant? Could we run a Seca under some water spray and see what happens?

    francois, are you available for another light shootout?

  23. #23
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    I do find it a bit suspicious that they(L&M)have made themselves to look top of the pile and a clear winner in the honesty test. They have only included the ones who they think or know exagerate their lumen fiqures.
    NiteRider and Dinotte were not included as they are not known for exagerating the lumens.

    It would be nice to think that if it is obviouse to me that a light needs a fan blowing on it to simulate the conditions that it will be used, then surely L&M would have done that in order to make the test fair.

    In the end it's all just numbers and I'm too old and cynical to believe any marketing [email protected] anymore.
    As others have already said Lumens aren't everything, battery life, type of mount, beam pattern, water resistence etc. are just as important.
    Last edited by yetibetty; 09-01-2009 at 05:52 PM.

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    Yeah, but it has all of you guys arguing about it, doesn't it? That's what happens when they achieve a "Me too" perception in customer's minds. Raises doubts and diminishes the premium the market leader in a particular segment can achieve.

    Look for Lupine to have to lower prices soon.

    j.

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    Good point john, that's why I have never bought a ready made light, I build my own then at least I know what's in it
    I have just got in from doing some beam shots to compare my home built 800ish honest lumen light to a friends magicshine 900 quoted lumens.

    I know I said that it's just numbers but now I've done this comparison I take it back, real lumens do matter.

    May post the pics on the DIY lights beam shot thread in the future.

  26. #26
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    From the video the light is shone into the front port of the sphere, so theres no reason why a fan couldn't be used to cool the lights.

    Couple of gripes:
    Only the failing competitors lights are listed in the summary, Niterider
    MiNewt X2 doesn't make the hit parade.

    Interesting that they haven't tested their full lineup of lights yet





















    Or have they?

  27. #27
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    Well I own a Lupine Betty light, as well as a Light n Motion..... The tests in the first post in this thread may well state that the LnM light has far more Lumins than the Betty...... But trust me, I have ridden with both back to back, my 4 main riding buddies all have LnM lights..... The Betty just creams the LnM lights on the actual trail under riding conditions. It is night and day difference.....

    I am no expert on lights, but real time experience forces me to say BS to the tests, again, not just saying that to rark people. Put it another way, all my riding group would sooner take the Betty than a LnM light any night ride!

    In saying that, the LnM lights are awesome, but the Betty is in another league......
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  28. #28
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    JohnJ80 you are just dying to get a Lupine.... whining and crying to see if they can decrease their price so you can have one for yourself

    Why instead of trying to bash things and talk down, don't you say something positive about DiNotte for example or any other thing in life... G!!!!!!!! you are one negative dude

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    Look for Lupine to have to lower prices soon.
    Nah... maybe look for Lupine to have their own test results.

    If they lower their prices it'll be from the "Magicshine" effect on the market, not out of reaction to L&M's stacked test.

    I would hope L&M understands how simple it is for any amateur to do a quick twin beamshot pic of a Seca 900 and a Betty side by side (in the same image).

    They claim Betty = 784 and Seca 900 = 953 ...I've seen both of those lights on the trail before (though I don't own either one) ...the Betty washes out the Seca 900.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    Well I own a Lupine Betty light, as well as a Light n Motion..... The tests in the first post in this thread may well state that the LnM light has far more Lumins than the Betty...... But trust me, I have ridden with both back to back, my 4 main riding buddies all have LnM lights..... The Betty just creams the LnM lights on the actual trail under riding conditions. It is night and day difference.....

    I am no expert on lights, but real time experience forces me to say BS to the tests, again, not just saying that to rark people. Put it another way, all my riding group would sooner take the Betty than a LnM light any night ride!

    In saying that, the LnM lights are awesome, but the Betty is in another league......
    Agreed. I've ridden with both. It's much fairer to compare Seca to a Wilma or Tesla if one wants to stack up the L&M light against one from Lupine.

    Trying to compare Seca to Betty is misleading and foolish.

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    Trying to compare Seca to Betty is misleading and foolish.
    They (L&M)did though, it could all get very interesting if it backfires on them.

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    Well I have owned my me Betty light since December 15, 2007 so at that time I don't remember any other led bike light putting out what the Betty did in lumens. I wanted a really bright and a reliable bike light so it was an easy choice at the time. There are more options now than there was back in 2007, but I still the Betty holds it's ground just fine.

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    I work in the lighting fixture industry and this type of confusion is going on everywhere with LED's. Misleading data is commonplace. The thing with LED's is that the published DATA that CREE (or any manufacture will publish) is with the LED junction temperature at 25°C (room temperature). They test it for the first instant that it comes on, kind of like a flash on a camera. The LED will never operate at that temperature and therefore never put out that amount of light. With a properly designed fixture (thermal management wise) you can get about 80% of that number - with a poorly designed system it could be 50%. What we do in our industry is to run the fixtures for four hours to let the temperatures stabilize out then run the measurements. Hard to do with lights intended to be used like bike lights are but that is where the confusion comes from. Like it or not though, it is misleading to customers to use CREE's data as you are NEVER going get there in real life. You might have the ability to test multiple lights but the average Joe does not.

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    I see the words "under ideal conditions" with the spec for almost everthing we buy these days, from battery life of a mobile phone to the life of a light bulb, even how many miles to expect from a tyre.

    There should also be spec for "under most likely conditions".

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBW
    JohnJ80 you are just dying to get a Lupine.... whining and crying to see if they can decrease their price so you can have one for yourself

    Why instead of trying to bash things and talk down, don't you say something positive about DiNotte for example or any other thing in life... G!!!!!!!! you are one negative dude
    Actually not interested in Lupines at that price point. Have to come down significantly before I would (and will, I'm sure). I think they are top of the heap, but I also think that this year will show them to be trying to get too high a premium for it. If they don't address that, I think they may not even be in the heap in a couple of years.

    Don't you find this interesting as a case study? I sure do. BTW, I think Dinotte is the best value out there. We haven't heard from them lately and it's about time. I would expect that to be pretty interesting.

    I am surprised that you love Lupines pricing and don't want the price to come down. Isn't that a little odd? One would think that if you liked them were they are, you'd like them more at 40% less in price.

    I'll have to remember that strategy - make a personal attack instead of dealing with the issue. That ever work for you?

    J.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    Actually not interested in Lupines at that price point. Have to come down significantly before I would (and will, I'm sure). I think they are top of the heap, but I also think that this year will show them to be trying to get too high a premium for it. If they don't address that, I think they may not even be in the heap in a couple of years.

    Don't you find this interesting as a case study? I sure do. BTW, I think Dinotte is the best value out there. We haven't heard from them lately and it's about time. I would expect that to be pretty interesting.

    I am surprised that you love Lupines pricing and don't want the price to come down. Isn't that a little odd? One would think that if you liked them were they are, you'd like them more at 40% less in price.

    I'll have to remember that strategy - make a personal attack instead of dealing with the issue. That ever work for you?

    J.
    I'm not related to Lupine in any sense just for the record. I also didn't pay full retail for my Wilma, I got it from a friend that needed the money and it had around 30 hours of use. I paid a good price for the Tesla with Geoman.
    I'm not in the marketing area but there are many things involved in price. I don't remember how it is called but sometimes the price is what makes a product "desirable"... or if it is too cheap, people will stay away from it.
    Lupine has a particular market, it is not NITE RIDE
    Yes, I would like all the lights to drop their prices so we can all night ride and be friends. Funny thing is that this tread is about light and motion (which I owned and loved) but I prefer to buy a Tesla or Wilma than a 650$? Seca. I know that the Lupine will withstand my crash, the plastic Seca wont AND I prefer to have something that not everybody has plus al the other good thing that I have said about Lupine that I love. I'm a light-a-holic, I like the best and it is not lumens. Watch a Lupine in action and you will fall in love with their color and pattern, heck the wilma has P4s as far as I know but the color and contrast that gives you on the trail I haven't seen it elsewere
    Prices down for all..... I just don't think they will. They will come with a BettyII with 3 P7's for 2000 lumens and will be on top I could bet

    happy night riding .......

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    They will not have to drop prices. Thy will continue with their "we are the best" strategy and possibly have a light or two (like the Tesla) at a slightly lower price point. BMW hasn't dropped its prices to compete with Chevy or Honda. Why should they- they sell enough to be profitable and have lots of performance adavantages and "snob appeal" as well (a marketing term; not mine). They simply need to stay ahead of the game each year.

    Dinotte is a good value and a light I'd consider buying if I were on a budget but are not even close to what you get with Lupines. I feel that way because I tested one and my buddy uses one. Sure, people would like to see lower prices from Lupine and everyone else but simply saying that here over and over will not work. I personally think Lupine will not do that and should not do that from a business perspective- they simply need to up their game eah year. That is how they will maintain and grow their niche market. Cervelo and De Rosas don't get much cheaper but people still buy the heck out of them.

    You can buy a crap light at $100, a good light at $300 and a great light at $500 or $800 or $1,000. People are willing to pay. The price isn't why Sony's Walkman went away. New technology took care of that. As long as Lupine innovates and is considered to be the best, they will continue to lead the high-end market. The L&M ARC and Nite Rider HIDs sold well but the Edison was always considered the king- till LEDs came along. The Lupine jumped to the top again.

    I'd look for Lupine to simply up their game this year with brighter version/upgrades and some new products as well. That is the way the igh-end manufacturers play the game. Dropping the price is sometimes a really dumb move since it devalues the product and they lose that high-end appeal. Manufacturers would rather maintain the edge through innovation (and preceding investment in R&D) and charge a higher price for it- that works much better.

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    Let me try and answer this from a marketing perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    They will not have to drop prices. Thy will continue with their "we are the best" strategy and possibly have a light or two (like the Tesla) at a slightly lower price point. BMW hasn't dropped its prices to compete with Chevy or Honda. Why should they- they sell enough to be profitable and have lots of performance adavantages and "snob appeal" as well (a marketing term; not mine). They simply need to stay ahead of the game each year.
    In order to do that they need to have a direct and presentable differentiation for which they can charge, and receive a significant premium. For example, if they charge - say $700 for a light and someone comes up with 90% of what they have for $400, that will dramatically decrease their premiums or, if their price is kept high, then they will probably see dramatically decreased market share. They can always sell a few to those willing to pay that huge premium but it is unlikely that they will sell enough to maintain their product margins and it's viability in the market place. That is the strategy that is almost always successful in attacking a high premium leader and pushing them to the very top of the pyramid - high performance, very low volume. It's pretty much the coffin corner of product marketing. You need larger market share in order to finance the development cost to keep the higher performance.

    As to BMW - they maintain premiums because (a) they hold their resale value, (b) they have demonstrated high reliability, and (c) they have performance that others don't have. They have managed to stay near the top of the pyramid but go low enough to keep the volumes up. It's a balancing act and they've done it well. Most companies don't do it well go too high up the performance curve (lower volume). They've been able to do it well and they are the exception.


    Dinotte is a good value and a light I'd consider buying if I were on a budget but are not even close to what you get with Lupines. I feel that way because I tested one and my buddy uses one. Sure, people would like to see lower prices from Lupine and everyone else but simply saying that here over and over will not work. I personally think Lupine will not do that and should not do that from a business perspective- they simply need to up their game eah year. That is how they will maintain and grow their niche market. Cervelo and De Rosas don't get much cheaper but people still buy the heck out of them.

    You can buy a crap light at $100, a good light at $300 and a great light at $500 or $800 or $1,000. People are willing to pay. The price isn't why Sony's Walkman went away. New technology took care of that. As long as Lupine innovates and is considered to be the best, they will continue to lead the high-end market. The L&M ARC and Nite Rider HIDs sold well but the Edison was always considered the king- till LEDs came along. The Lupine jumped to the top again.

    I'd look for Lupine to simply up their game this year with brighter version/upgrades and some new products as well. That is the way the igh-end manufacturers play the game. Dropping the price is sometimes a really dumb move since it devalues the product and they lose that high-end appeal. Manufacturers would rather maintain the edge through innovation (and preceding investment in R&D) and charge a higher price for it- that works much better.
    What you want Lupine to do and what is economically rational to do are probably not the same thing. THis is an embryonic tech market - LED lighting. For crying out loud, the EU is pretty much outlawing incandescent light bulbs! There are big players getting into this daily. The cost of the technology is plummeting. Doing the enclosure piece is not rocket science nor difficult. Lupine is going to have to get on those trends or they will die (or their biking market products will die). There is no way that they can hold these price margins when others have similar (or better) lighting performance and hope to survive - regardless of how much any of us wish it to be so. Clicking one's heels together and hoping to get back to Kansas is not a marketing strategy that has been successful. In fact, "hope" is not a strategy in the tech sector for successful companies.

    I guarantee you that right now there is an argument going on at Lupine about what to do. If they had known what to do they would have addressed the market share issue directly. The longer they delay the more likely it is for a competitor to nibble away at their market share and continue to do so while pushing them towards the high performance side while eating their sales. When that happens, they will have to invest big development money for ever decreasing returns. That leads to death in a tech product. Ask Palm on smart phones, ask Netscape on browsers, ask SGI on Daisy on engineering workstations, ask any of the companies that used to make dedicated word processors pre -PC, etc... There are thousands of companies that have done this the wrong way - it's almost formulaic.

    Don't believe me? Go read "Marketing Warfare" by Reis and Trout. They detail the classic attack for this sort of marketing and give countless examples.

    J.

  39. #39
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    John, take your points on board....

    Have you actually ridden with a Lupine Betty?

    Have you tested the LnM light in the above test alongside a Lupine Betty?

    The above tests may as i have said in an earlier post claim this and that.... But actually using them for their intended purpose, the Lupine Betty pisses all over the LnM....

    I own both lights, I was most spoilt and received the Betty as a gift.... But it hands down takes a big dump on the LnM light, of which as I also stated is a great light...
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  40. #40
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    1-I don't think john has ridden with a Lupine nor has been close to one
    2-He thinks that because he read 1 book, he knows it all.....
    3-reminds me of the economists (sorry): they tell you what should happen in the market and later they tell you why it didn't
    4-If you think that's the way to go for Lupine, write them a letter. maybe they will hire you and you will finally be able to ride with a Lupine and see why the are what they are
    % I don't understand the critic to Lupine in every thread ??? jealousy??? can't think about something else. If you can't afford them, no sweat, enjoy other lights but things are not "according to john's view "... you are not the CEo as far as I know so let them do their business as they please, I'd say they are doing it right.

    I will not be able to afford a Ferrari but I don't bash them because I get almost the same with a corvette and it cost 120.000$ less (almost the same: 4 wheels )

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe

    I own both lights, I was most spoilt and received the Betty as a gift.... But it hands down takes a big dump on the LnM light, of which as I also stated is a great light...
    Beamshots please!!!!

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    Premium brands will always command a premium price even if the actual performance is only 10%, 20%, or 30% more. It goes deeper than that beause this is not a commodity. The other lights simply don't play in the same league.

    BMW is NOT an exception. Audi and Porsche do the same thing even though other manufacturers can get close or pass their horespower or slalom performance. Same things with guns- Heckler & Koch and Sig Sauer, and even Glocks command a premium- always have and always will. The others are creating premium models just to get that target market.

    It is the value/reputation of a brand and the attention to detail that sets them apart. Sorry but the L&M and Dinottes don't even come close. A Lupine buyer is willing to pay a premium- that is their target market and we are not talking about commodities here.

    If you don't like the Lupine price, that is fine but dont expect them to lower their price because you think that is what the market will dictate- that is so misguided. Put the Seca or Nite Rider or Dinotte next to any Lupine and see the difference in construction and design. They are not even close...you're fooling yourself if you think they are.

    In fact, Toyota, Honda, and Nissan had to come up with higher-priced premium brands to compete with the BMWs and Audis of the world. There is a market segment that will not buy a Dinotte or L&M- they simply want the best, regardless of price. Why do you have trouble getting that? There are guys who wil never buy a Gary Fisher or Trek or Cannondale and see them as mediocre bikes. They will pay double and get a Nicolai or Knolly or Turner, even though the actual measured performance may, for example, only be 10% better. Maybe they are no faster on a trail but there are too many factors to consider. These are not household lightbulbs.

    I mean, look at Whafe...the guy is a perfect example- has a Jones, a Porsche, a Nicolai, and a Lupine.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    It is the value/reputation of a brand and the attention to detail that sets them apart. Sorry but the L&M and Dinottes don't even come close. A Lupine buyer is willing to pay a premium- that is their target market and we are not talking about commodities here.
    I think thats the point of this thread, to see if the perceived value and reputation is actually warranted. The L&M commissioned data suggest its not.

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    They may hope that consumers buy that but it is complete rubbish. First, they only TRIED to measure instant lumens and not in a practical setting and paid to get the test "doctored" to work in their favor.

    No airflow (this is primarily how they faked out the test)
    No testing AFTER the first minute or two when the Seca drops in brightness significantly.
    The Betty drops down quickly to prevent overheating.
    No use of the latest Betty but use of their own latest light.
    I'm not sure what models of other lights they used.

    Additionally:
    No mention of all the plastic they use.
    No mention of why light "seeps" though the seams.
    No mention of weatherproof qualities and why the circuits are visible through the vents.

    I suggest they test again after Interbike with each manufacturers latest models and do it in a practical and realistic way. Let's include a lumen test that way and also consider the other features everyone (hopefully) looks for.

    Let the lights run for a couple of minutes with proper airflow. Why would you not do that? That was the first giveaway that this test was a bit shady. They are simply trying to dent the reputation of the others but not everyone is that gullible or uninformed. Well, some of us are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    I think thats the point of this thread, to see if the perceived value and reputation is actually warranted. The L&M commissioned data suggest its not.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    Additionally:
    No mention of all the plastic they use.
    No mention of why light "seeps" though the seams.
    No mention of weatherproof qualities and why the circuits are visible through the vents.
    Lol
    Its lumen testing. Thats all.
    And the speculation on the doctored test results is just that.

    If your claimed 200mph 4l ferrari is only 170mph and 3.5l, having a nice stereo and leather seats wont make up for it. But its still a nice ride.

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    Well, that is nice to know- that it is just lumen testing...that's all...probably just done in passing.

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    Again I call BS..... Those that are spouting off so to speak. HAVE YOU RIDDEN IN THE DARK IN FORREST,BUSH, SCRUB ETC WITH BOTH MODELS?

    I didnt think so.....

    I am not here to dis the LnM light, it is a great light, but the fact remains that the Lupine Betty is just that much better...... Lupine dont want to have the market share that LnM have, nor does Turner, Knolly, Nicolai etc, they are not interested in competing with the masses.... I respect them for this, hence my reasoning for purchasing these products....

    Quality goes a long way.......
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    Whether or not I have ridden all the brands in the market or you think Lupine is the best - that's exactly NOT the point because we already own lights. The point is what will someone who is deciding what to BUY do? If you and yell at each other at the top of our lungs it will make no difference to the person who is looking at all the specs and reading reviews (which are already talking about how the differences are rapidly shrinking) and making a decision. Nobody will listen to us, but they will read all that they can find and look at the specs, pricing etc... That is not in Lupine's favor now with others challenging their main differentiators with no response from Lupine!

    I agree. BMW is not an exception. They do have differentiators that have been proven to work in supporting the premiums on their car prices. Proven, because they have a long track record in making it work. I don't think Lupine has such differentiators nor that they will prove as durable as BMW's have been - some do. We'll see. My bet is that their price is going to come down significantly and soon or they will lose huge market share and eventually exit the business. We'll see. History says they won't budge on price - but hey, I could be wrong.

    j.

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    John, I think many whom are in the market for lights will read as you mention, for sure they will. But if you read a review where by the information states the the light was switched on, a measurement was taken and bingo there are results.... It is not really real time, real user data is it?

    People whom are going to spend 500 USD and above for a cycling light are going to investigate the topic heavily, are they not?

    As mentioned above, I very much doubt Lupine are only focussed on LnM & NightRider lights.....

    I think though if your intended purpose is to strike a cord with Lupine and stroke your ego if in fact they reduced their prices, you are barking up the wrong tree.

    People will pay for quality, fullstop......
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    People pay for perceived quality not for actual quality. Using the BMW example earlier is a good example. There are those that swear by them (I've had great luck with mine) but I also know those who have had horrible luck with them and would never buy another as a result. BMW doesn't publish their warranty claim numbers or the outgoing PPM numbers so no one knows for sure if they are any good or not. They believe that they are good - they PERCEIVE they are good but they don't know.

    Do you really think I'm so egotistical to think that Lupine actually even cares what I think? (that was a really stupid statement, by the way) I'm just interested in the business case and in what's going to happen. I've got many years into marketing/sales and business strategy and I'm just interested to see if they are going to make the same mistakes most do in this position. As for Lupine - I don't care one way or the other what happens to them and I'm surprised that the fanboys get so defensive about it. I find it odd that there is this much argument justifying the high pricing - in point of fact, that's weird.

    I'm just looking for better lights at lower prices - technology marching on. Whether they come from Lupine or if Lupine becomes a non player at some point really doesn't matter to me.

    I will say this though that the longer Lupine goes without answering, the more difficult it gets for them to overcome a rising perception that they don't own the top anymore. That is not good for them and it will cost them market share - exactly as it was designed to do.

    I guess we'll see, won't we?

    J.

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    Take on board John your own comment above - 2. There will be the arguments made by users that "well, I know differently...." and will turn out to be largely subjective and not verifiable data. STARTING NOW.

    You agree with the results stating that the Lumen output from the OP was that Lupine is not up to the mark so to speak..... But in my opinion, you are that egotistical, when in fact you have not even used a Lupine Betty & LnM light on the same trail side by side, in my book that even makes you more egotistical....

    You will note in my post John that I have not at all poo hoo'd the results in the OP, more that I have both lights and in real life trials of actually night riding, there is a HUGE difference......

    If you are not willing to take that on board, I cant force you, so all is good then....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    Jumping in w/o reading every above thread ...so ...

    FYI, Lupine lights come in at about half of their rated lumens. I ran into a nite-rider designer on the trail the other night (he was impressed with my lights and how cool they ran, which was pretty awesome to hear) and he said NR had bought up all the competition lights and put them into an integrating sphere for true numbers. They needed to truly know where all the competition was at.

    We started talking Lupine when the conversation drifted to market hype. As I recall he said the Betty came in at about 600 lumens (lupine states it as 1500). Ouch! They also apparently took the thing apart and found FR4 boards as the thermal substrate (fiberglass). Not a great design there, nor can I ad excellent overall as the heat has a long way to travel out of the LEDs, only to reach their inadequate cooling fins. Lupine lights sure "look" nice though!

    At least that $80 import china junk dx light (magicshine) stole a fundamentally poor design. As this is obviously a rip of the Tesla.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdnative
    ... he said NR had bought up all the competition lights and put them into an integrating sphere for true numbers. They needed to truly know where all the competition was at.
    This is what surprised me in the tests, the NR lights failing as they do claim to measure lumens.

  54. #54
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    Here's the part I don't get.....

    I'm not an engineer, know nothing about light design or LEDs and I've seen most of the commercial lights on the market.

    And Betty is still brighter than any other I've seen.

    So why the discrepancy?

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Here's the part I don't get.....

    I'm not an engineer, know nothing about light design or LEDs and I've seen most of the commercial lights on the market.

    And Betty is still brighter than any other I've seen.

    So why the discrepancy?
    Hear ya Squeaky, this is my point also, as I own both a LnM and a Lupine Betty, all this test data doesnt at all show what is actually happening out in the field so to speak.....

    I doubt Lupine would be so silly to not test things correctly......

    I am very happy with my Lupine Betty, and thats really all that matters to me... Am not at all biased towards Lupine, I just use one and it blows LnM out of the water....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    Take on board John your own comment above - 2. There will be the arguments made by users that "well, I know differently...." and will turn out to be largely subjective and not verifiable data. STARTING NOW.

    You agree with the results stating that the Lumen output from the OP was that Lupine is not up to the mark so to speak..... But in my opinion, you are that egotistical, when in fact you have not even used a Lupine Betty & LnM light on the same trail side by side, in my book that even makes you more egotistical....

    You will note in my post John that I have not at all poo hoo'd the results in the OP, more that I have both lights and in real life trials of actually night riding, there is a HUGE difference......

    If you are not willing to take that on board, I cant force you, so all is good then....
    Please re-read what I wrote. If not, here is the summary:

    I presume the test to be accurate because if it isn't then they will look extremely foolish and would be idiots to not do accurate testing. If that happens, then it is those that tested that will suffer in the marketing. Please do not continue to put words into my mouth but DO spend time reading things more carefully.

    The point is, that unless you are now in the market to buy something, your opinion and action will not do anything to improve or degrade market share of any manufacturer and means that what you or I think (presuming we are not buying lights right now) is immaterial. The only person's whose opinion counts is the one buying. If this testing sways that decision, then it matters and it needs to be answered to avoid business problems.

    I'm not arguing the performance of the lights - I'm arguing the perception of the performance by those that will buy one soon.

    I thought that was all a fairly straightforward concept but apparently not for some who think this is an argument about which light is better rather than the perception in the market of which is better or more differentiated.

    For all of this, note too that I have not stooped to calling anyone names nor ascribing negative characteristics to them. I am "egotistical" or at least care enough about my reputation enough to not stoop to that level of immaturity. Also, I've found that that does not do much to advance discussion nor much of anything else. Maybe you might want to think about the same thing or "take that on board."

    J.

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    Point taken John....

    I do think that we should possibly take on board that Lupine I am sure will have done pretty advanced testing also....

    It was a topic of discussion on a 4 hour ride today. The first part of discussion was that the Lupine changes its grunt so to speak depending on heat etc....

    But yes, a potential customer will for sure be somewhat confused with some of the testing results. Also would you agree John that someone in the market to spend upwards of 500 USD will be well into the topic and do some pretty good research, or they should for that sort of ping.....

    Not generalizing but am sure Lupine being German, will not give a rats a s s to a blind man about this thread and test results....

    But you make some good points, and apologies if I came across any untoward way....


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    Please re-read what I wrote. If not, here is the summary:

    I presume the test to be accurate because if it isn't then they will look extremely foolish and would be idiots to not do accurate testing. If that happens, then it is those that tested that will suffer in the marketing. Please do not continue to put words into my mouth but DO spend time reading things more carefully.

    The point is, that unless you are now in the market to buy something, your opinion and action will not do anything to improve or degrade market share of any manufacturer and means that what you or I think (presuming we are not buying lights right now) is immaterial. The only person's whose opinion counts is the one buying. If this testing sways that decision, then it matters and it needs to be answered to avoid business problems.

    I'm not arguing the performance of the lights - I'm arguing the perception of the performance by those that will buy one soon.

    I thought that was all a fairly straightforward concept but apparently not for some who think this is an argument about which light is better rather than the perception in the market of which is better or more differentiated.

    For all of this, note too that I have not stooped to calling anyone names nor ascribing negative characteristics to them. I am "egotistical" or at least care enough about my reputation enough to not stoop to that level of immaturity. Also, I've found that that does not do much to advance discussion nor much of anything else. Maybe you might want to think about the same thing or "take that on board."

    J.
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    Point taken John....

    I do think that we should possibly take on board that Lupine I am sure will have done pretty advanced testing also....

    It was a topic of discussion on a 4 hour ride today. The first part of discussion was that the Lupine changes its grunt so to speak depending on heat etc....

    But yes, a potential customer will for sure be somewhat confused with some of the testing results. Also would you agree John that someone in the market to spend upwards of 500 USD will be well into the topic and do some pretty good research, or they should for that sort of ping.....

    Not generalizing but am sure Lupine being German, will not give a rats a s s to a blind man about this thread and test results....

    But you make some good points, and apologies if I came across any untoward way....
    In the world of marketing and PR, if Lupine fails to answer these competitive thrusts (tests) they will be presumed to be true (and probably are then). If they can show them definitively to be false then they probably will be able to sustain their premiums for a bit longer. If they don't because they can't (i.e. tests are true) then they will need to meet the competition either by dropping their price on existing units, introducing new ones that are cheaper/better or get out of the business.

    I would absolutely agree that someone spending $500 on a light set would do some research. I also assert that that would be exactly the problem for Lupine if they can't/don't respond to this. Finding this new data would certainly introduce FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) about Lupine's claims and pricing. The fact that their position is no longer clear and that there are others that claim similar performance and have data to support that claim is what will dramatically reduce their premiums.

    So, if Lupine has done their testing, then bring it on. Lupine may not need to care about this discussion, but they ought to care about the topic.


    J.

  59. #59
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    The fact still remains that lupine quote 1400 lumens, how did they come up with that number? Did they do tests, did they just believe Seoul semiconductor inc who supply the LEDs or did they just make it up?

    What ever these lights do actually produce all of the beam shots I have seen do make them look brighter than the rest regardless of numbers.

    I wish they would fight back, even if it is just so I have something new to read.

    A good lumen war is only going to make things better for the light buyer.

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    I suspect that those numbers are calculated numbers based on the LED mfgs datasheet and do not account for losses through lenses etc...

    What I'd really like to see is the mfgs to agree on specs. I'd like lumens to be measured as opposed to calculated and I'd like to see them publish their beam shots under industry standard shooting conditions - but that is all probably pipe dream.

    j.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    I suspect that those numbers are calculated numbers based on the LED mfgs datasheet and do not account for losses through lenses etc...
    Sounds about right.
    15% for optics and 30% for heat.

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    I don't doubt the accuracy of the measurements. These are pretty standard measurements and it appears they used a reliable outfit. The BIG mistake L&M made is that they tell us nothing about test conditions. Airflow? Temperature? How long after the light was turned on were the measurements taken? This should have been spelled out very clearly in their data, but I don't see it anywhere. Given that, I see very little usefulness in their data. Unfortunately, most consumers will just look at the numbers and go, "Whoa, those other guys are liars. I'll buy a L&M".

    Output will vary quite a bit from unit to unit due to manufacturing tolerances. A Q5 bin Cree has what a 7% variation on its lumens at 350 mA? Add in all the other places for variation too. Who knows, L&M could have sampled a bunch of lights from each manufacturer and chosen the ones measuring the lowest from them, but chosen the highest ones from their own lights. Look at the Seca 700: 699.9627 lumens. That's incredibly close to 700. Do you think they were just lucky to be so close or did they try 10 different ones and finally get one that hit the mark? Too many questions left unanswered...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ellerbro
    I don't doubt the accuracy of the measurements. These are pretty standard measurements and it appears they used a reliable outfit. The BIG mistake L&M made is that they tell us nothing about test conditions. Airflow? Temperature? How long after the light was turned on were the measurements taken? This should have been spelled out very clearly in their data, but I don't see it anywhere. Given that, I see very little usefulness in their data. Unfortunately, most consumers will just look at the numbers and go, "Whoa, those other guys are liars. I'll buy a L&M".

    Output will vary quite a bit from unit to unit due to manufacturing tolerances. A Q5 bin Cree has what a 7% variation on its lumens at 350 mA? Add in all the other places for variation too. Who knows, L&M could have sampled a bunch of lights from each manufacturer and chosen the ones measuring the lowest from them, but chosen the highest ones from their own lights. Look at the Seca 700: 699.9627 lumens. That's incredibly close to 700. Do you think they were just lucky to be so close or did they try 10 different ones and finally get one that hit the mark? Too many questions left unanswered...
    yeah, but that's all inside baseball and won't matter. Lupine needs to meet this with a strong statement and/or their own testing... and soon. You have to admire L&M's timing on all of this - just as the night riding season in North America is about to go full swing. I'd say this is well done marketing by L&M and it looks like this has caught Lupine flat footed.

    J.

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    I think this has turned out to be one of the more entertaining threads and perhaps one of the more long-winded ones as well. I can't believe I read the whole thing because after the first three pages the thoughts and view points of the various posters began to reiterate those same thoughts/views. Since I am patient, I read on hoping to glean some more important facts that might be expressed. I will say ( coming from the peanut gallery as I am ) that I think everyone who posted did very well in expressing their point of view and in not letting this degrade into some personal tit-for-tat hissy fit. My take on all of this (?)....Well, I think that all testing of consumer goods should be done by folks who are aren't hired by a producer of those said consumer goods and don't stand to prosper from what their results show. I say that because I'm sure if the results showed the Lupines to be superior, the results would have never seen the light of day. Nope, I have to say that any published results of comparisons done in a lab I simple would not accept unless it was repeatable by another reputable source. In the mean time I'm going to continue to put my faith in the users of these light systems and with the reviews and beam photos they show. At least Whafe claimed to have both systems and declared Lupine to be the winner ( as far as output is concerned ) and I have yet to read of other Lupine users being dissatisfied with the output. Believe me, If I bought one ( Lupine ) rated at 1400 lumens and it was only outputting 600 lumens I would be absolutely outraged!...Need I say, I'm not seeing a slew of angry Lupine owners posting up on this forum. Give me good beam shots and reviews from everyday folk any day and the hell with what the manufacturers and their sponsors have to say about the output of their own product. Never fully trust that person holding an axe to grind until your sure that he's proven himself.
    Now as to what Lupine charges for their light systems I could really care less because I really don't need to spend that kind of money to get the output ( or quality ) that I want from a light system.

  65. #65
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    I think there is more to come from other manufacturers yet this year.

    J.

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    Hello Everyone,

    My name is Damon and I'm an engineer here at Light and Motion. I'm not a marketing guy who gives slick polished answers, but i'll try to clear up a couple of the concerns and questions people have here. I'm a little surprised at how passionate this thread has become, but I'm glad to see everyone care about their lights and night riding - whatever brand you are using.

    Quote Originally Posted by ellerbro
    The BIG mistake L&M made is that they tell us nothing about test conditions. Airflow? Temperature? How long after the light was turned on were the measurements taken?
    This is a pretty interesting question and observant point. We thought a bit about what conditions to test to, and the fact is that the only thing we have control over is what is going on inside the light. We don't know if you ride fast or slow, in an Alaskan winter or the summer in Arizona. To try and isolate that, we decided that the test should be performed immediately after the light is turned on. FYI, it takes the integrating sphere about 30-45 seconds to collect all the data. Yes, there is some heating of the LEDs in that time, but whatever thermal effects within the LED happen in that time are primarily due to the thermal design of the product - not the air around it. The heatsink does not warm up appreciably on any of the lights in that short time frame.
    So again, we tried to set up the test to isolate only what is going on inside the light head.

    Quote Originally Posted by ellerbo
    Look at the Seca 700: 699.9627 lumens. That's incredibly close to 700. Do you think they were just lucky to be so close or did they try 10 different ones and finally get one that hit the mark?
    The Seca 700 is just "luck" that it measured so close to the target. We actually test a few of our lights - pulled at random - and average the results. Believe me, we did not get these numbers right the first time, and had to tweak our design to hit our targets. So yes, it is "luck" that the average is within .04 lumens of the target, but it is certainly not luck that it is close to what we claim.

    There also seems to be some sentiment that we are trying to skew the test results in our favor. That is certainly not our intention. If you look at the results, NR also does pretty well on accuracy - likely because they also test their lights with an integrating sphere. I do not know how other companies verify their lumen claims, but I do know that without this test, it is always a guess.

    I hope this clears up some of the questions. It is a really exciting time to be designing bike lights - technology is changing rapidly, customers are becoming much more saavy, and in general products are dramatically improving in fundamental ways. Keep up the discussion - it is a great read!

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    Hi Damon,

    Thanks for clearing that up. It's useful to get it straight from the guys who did the testing.

    J.

  68. #68
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    Well that's nice...

    Somebody's still gotta figure out how a Betty @ 784 clearly drowns out a Seca @ 953.

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    Maybe Lupine could do that and tell us. One would think we'd be hearing from them by now.

    j.

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    John, are you so sure that Lupine being a German company is following light threads on MTBR, a US of A website?

    We could argue that they should be, but they may well not be.....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    I'm not a light guru either but have a Dinotte 800/400 combo and have seen with my own eyes a comparison of the L&M Arc and 800L. I know the Arc is now old technology but it's still considered a good light.

    However, there's no comparison. The 800L is considerable brighter.

    I mention this as I really don't think there will be uniform testing. I think the best way to test would be to read the reviews done either here or at one of several other good sites, James Sharp, and see which lights are consistently recommended for brightness, durability, features, etc.

    Yes, I'd like to see uniform testing but until then, thanks to those like Francios, James Sharp, etc and the readers here who test for us.

    MB

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    John, are you so sure that Lupine being a German company is following light threads on MTBR, a US of A website?

    We could argue that they should be, but they may well not be.....
    Good point, but I'm quite sure that they read their competitors advertising.

    Unless of course they don't think they have any competition.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetibetty
    Good point, but I'm quite sure that they read their competitors advertising.

    Unless of course they don't think they have any competition.
    or perhaps they realize that there is little, if anything, to be gained from posting a rebuttal on a user's forum

  74. #74
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    I very much doubt that Lupine dont have an attitude where by they feel they do not have competition.... But will say, Not all players in every market worry about their competition....

    We have no clue about the business stategy of Lupine, nor do we re LnM..... Not every business wishes to be a global market leader wanting 90% market share.....

    For example Knolly, Nicolai, Turner dont want to have the largest global market share in bike frames, where by Giant and Specialized will totally have global domination as a key strategy.....

    Another point, what % of mtb night riding lights purchases do you feel MTBR captures? I would say it is a very small %....

    Thoughts?

    I am not on a side here, I just find it amusing that a thread on MTBR can start kind of sayign if one company doesnt come on to a thread and make a comment, there will be ramifacations.....etc etc etc, am sure you get my thoughts.....

    Interesting all round...
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  75. #75
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    I was thinking more along the lines of them putting something on their own website or in their own advertising. not on a forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    or perhaps they realize that there is little, if anything, to be gained from posting a rebuttal on a user's forum
    They would need to do it in what ever way guarantees them the widest circulation possible. However, not responding would be foolish. I didn't mean to imply it had to be here.

    I do assume that if they did answer that they would notify their sales channel so they could use it as sales collateral and we'd be hearing about it a microsecond later from Geoman et al.

    J.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    I very much doubt that Lupine dont have an attitude where by they feel they do not have competition.... But will say, Not all players in every market worry about their competition....

    We have no clue about the business stategy of Lupine, nor do we re LnM..... Not every business wishes to be a global market leader wanting 90% market share.....

    For example Knolly, Nicolai, Turner dont want to have the largest global market share in bike frames, where by Giant and Specialized will totally have global domination as a key strategy.....

    Another point, what % of mtb night riding lights purchases do you feel MTBR captures? I would say it is a very small %....

    Thoughts?

    I am not on a side here, I just find it amusing that a thread on MTBR can start kind of sayign if one company doesnt come on to a thread and make a comment, there will be ramifacations.....etc etc etc, am sure you get my thoughts.....

    Interesting all round...
    My guess is that this is really a tiny market in general, and that a significant fraction of people doing research pre-sales probably wind up looking here. That's how I wound up here.

    Lupine doesn't need to be on this thread but they need to answer this in some distinct way that gets their story into the market and in multiple channels (sales team, website, list server etc...). If not, it is pretty much perceived as acquiescence that LnM is correct.

    J.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    My guess is that this is really a tiny market in general, and that a significant fraction of people doing research pre-sales probably wind up looking here. That's how I wound up here.

    Lupine doesn't need to be on this thread but they need to answer this in some distinct way that gets their story into the market and in multiple channels (sales team, website, list server etc...). If not, it is pretty much perceived as acquiescence that LnM is correct.

    J.
    I think I have to disagree with that conclusion. If I worked for Lupine and read this thread I would simply dismiss it as a common "He said, she said", discussion. Now if ten or more people posted up on the same thread and claimed to have compared their Lupines to the L&M systems and found their Lupines to be lacking, now that would be a horse of a different color. Unless Lupine suddenly is inundated with an influx of complaints or request for returns ( refunds ) , I really don't think they would need to pay the matter much heed. In the States we have a saying, "Money talks, bull$h*t walks". This could easily be reworded for the manufacturing industry to read, "Product talks, bull$h*t walks". I tend to think that such concepts are universal to an extent.
    I think at this stage of the discussion it is my opinion that Lupine is letting their product do the talking. In fact the very silence of Lupine and their customers is this matter would tend to support my opinion. Now if people start posting up beam shots of their L&M's blowing away the Bettys then there is going to be some major problems for Lupine. So far though, it ain't happening.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetibetty
    I was thinking more along the lines of them putting something on their own website or in their own advertising. not on a forum.

    There has been a posting regarding this test by L&M and this MTBR Forum link on Lupine's own Forum. So far they have only posted a blank message on this test...
    I know Stefan from Lupine has posted on MTBR previously.


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  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do
    I think I have to disagree with that conclusion. If I worked for Lupine and read this thread I would simply dismiss it as a common "He said, she said", discussion. Now if ten or more people posted up on the same thread and claimed to have compared their Lupines to the L&M systems and found their Lupines to be lacking, now that would be a horse of a different color. Unless Lupine suddenly is inundated with an influx of complaints or request for returns ( refunds ) , I really don't think they would need to pay the matter much heed. In the States we have a saying, "Money talks, bull$h*t walks". This could easily be reworded for the manufacturing industry to read, "Product talks, bull$h*t walks". I tend to think that such concepts are universal to an extent.
    I think at this stage of the discussion it is my opinion that Lupine is letting their product do the talking. In fact the very silence of Lupine and their customers is this matter would tend to support my opinion. Now if people start posting up beam shots of their L&M's blowing away the Bettys then there is going to be some major problems for Lupine. So far though, it ain't happening.
    Bingo !

    Very nicely worded and totally on the mark, and exactly why I posted earlier that Lupine has very little to gain by responding. People on tMTBR have a tendency to greatly overestimate this forum's influence on the market.

  81. #81
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    Lupine lies confirmed! (of course most other brands inflate their ratings though they don't charge such a premium) Another question I have is the color temperature of the LEDs, LM seems more yellow than Lupine so possibly there isn't notable measurable difference in lumens between LM and Lupine but perceived difference due to the more blue tint Lupine uses?

    We need a pupil lumen rating. A primer on the subject

    Historically, lighting manufacturers have utilized light meters to determine a lamps lumen output that are calibrated by examining the eye's sensitivity to only cone activated vision in the very central part of the retina, the fovea (photopic) . These light meters completely ignore the effect of rod activated vision (scotopic). As a result, lighting practice accepted this single sensitivity function because it was erroneously assumed that the more light sensitive rods only functioned at very dim light levels.

    Recent studies now demonstrate unequivocally and in an objective manner that rod photoreceptors are active not only in dim light but also at typical interior light levels as well. Vision scientists have known that the rods are more sensitive than cones to bluish-white light sources which is a characteristic found in higher color temperature light sources. This explains why environments using warm white (3000K) and even cool white (4100K) fluorescent lighting appear less bright than the same environment lit by lamps of a higher color temperature, 5000K or above.

    Therefore, combining the Photopic and Scotopic lumen of a particular light source is more akin to how the human eye perceives light at normal interior light levels.

    Additional studies over the past 15 years have concluded that general lighting with high scotopic to photopic ratios (S/P), characterized by high color temperature lamps, provide better visual acuity. As detailed further below, lamps with high S/P ratios can result in faster reading time, reduced visual fatigue, reduced glare, a reduction in task orientated errors, and improved human performance.
    The thread from the Lupine forum:

    Quote Originally Posted by samoth
    Thats no news ;-)

    A user called "siam" (gettin ready to earn a doctorate) at the german IBC-Board measured with a so called "Ulbricht-Kugel" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulbricht-Kugel) a mass of different Light-Sources.

    In between there were also the flames from Lupine. Here are the specs:



    The first column shows the product, the second shows the measured values, the third shows the manufacturer-specs and the fourth shows the difference between 2nd and 3rd. The (Lupine) lamps were turned on and measurement has been taken place immediately after that, so there was no time for the lamp to actually heat up and dim down - these facts were stated by "siam". I do trust in siam and his science. I´ve had the pleasure to see him live on a nightride-session with dozens of other people.

    Hell yes... there´s a discrepancy from reality and factsheets and I still own 2 Wilmas and I even bought the 2nd one after reading the test above. I don´t care too much about the (interesting!) measured data in my case, because my Wilma is bright enough for me. Imho it´s also perfectly designed and feels good - short: It does, what I want it to do and I was willing to pay the price :-)

    The argument that the values differ so much from each other... don´t know what I should think about that :-/ I can say that much: It wasn´t important to me when I bought the lights, since I had the chance to test them both and on that I made my decision.

    Cheers,
    samoth


    PS. Here is the IBC-Thread with all of its data: https://www.mtb-news.de/forum/showth...ahrheit&page=4
    Last edited by syadasti; 09-11-2009 at 06:35 AM.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do
    I think I have to disagree with that conclusion. If I worked for Lupine and read this thread I would simply dismiss it as a common "He said, she said", discussion. Now if ten or more people posted up on the same thread and claimed to have compared their Lupines to the L&M systems and found their Lupines to be lacking, now that would be a horse of a different color. Unless Lupine suddenly is inundated with an influx of complaints or request for returns ( refunds ) , I really don't think they would need to pay the matter much heed. In the States we have a saying, "Money talks, bull$h*t walks". This could easily be reworded for the manufacturing industry to read, "Product talks, bull$h*t walks". I tend to think that such concepts are universal to an extent.
    I think at this stage of the discussion it is my opinion that Lupine is letting their product do the talking. In fact the very silence of Lupine and their customers is this matter would tend to support my opinion. Now if people start posting up beam shots of their L&M's blowing away the Bettys then there is going to be some major problems for Lupine. So far though, it ain't happening.
    Well, from a marketing and PR perspective, you'd be wrong. Guys in that business love having guys with the situation and attitude you describe on the side of the competition. Reason: they get killed every time.

    You can't be serious.... Lupine should let their competition get away with something like this if it weren't true or they could disprove it? If they don't the only conclusion that anyone can draw is that it IS true or the CAN'T disprove it.

    J.

  83. #83
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    Let's wait till Interbike. If there is anything in the works, Lupine should not be saying anything at all this close to IB. Let's see who brings what and let the lights do the talking. L&M is not in the ARC days anymore. They have a lot of catching up to do. Hopefully, Nite Rider will also do some "talking" after that.

    For those with a big presence, MTBR is irrelevant. I agree there.

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    Lupine doesn't need to announce new products, but they do need to counter the LnM testing and should at least do it through their website. I agree maybe not here. Although effective media strategy is to hit all the channels you can.

    j.

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    This thread in my opinion is a yawn now....

    John you will think I am biased, I am not at all. My main take away from this thread now is that you feel that MTBR is the global portal information source for MTB lights....... I disagree with this HUGELY, MTBR is a great information source, but by no means do i feel it is the be all and end all...

    I also John gain the impression that you have some Marketing / PR knowledge, but on the other hand you are not seeing all sides of a story.... COuld be wrong and often am.....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    No, please reread my posts. I don't think MTBR is the end all/be all in this sort of thing. It's a little corner of the dialog on this stuff.

    I do have a lot of marketing, sales and PR experience - much at an executive level as well as having run political campaigns. I just find these things interesting and marvel how companies don't always seem to learn from the mistakes of others and/or get bad advice on this sort of thing. I'm kind of amazed that we don't see Lupine answering their competition.

    J.

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    This is like trying to make a train stop and pick up 10 angry passengers when they have 10,000 happy ones on board. This is indeed yawn-worthy now. I'll just wait for the new lights. Hey, someone better tell Lupine we are waiting for new lights. While I watch the competition, I don't react to their every move. I try to stay ahead and only react if there is a big and strategic move and only when I have crafted a well-baked strategy. It has worked in going from 6,000 to 10,000 locations in 18 months. If I react to everything for a hundred vocal customers, I'll run the business into the ground. I'll work on keeping the ones I do have and letting the high maintenenance ones go and take up my competitors' time.

  88. #88
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    John - you have now announced the width and breadth of your Marketing, sales and PR experience. It will be interesting to see if with your vast knowledge that Lupine lose business for not making comment about some testing figures that have been produced by a competitor......

    Again, with your vast experience, you have never seen a strategy where by Lupine may well be letting the product speak for its self etc......

    You didnt by chance run the political campaign for that shady guy Obama that is running the show in the US of A?
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    John - you have now announced the width and breadth of your Marketing, sales and PR experience. It will be interesting to see if with your vast knowledge that Lupine lose business for not making comment about some testing figures that have been produced by a competitor......

    Again, with your vast experience, you have never seen a strategy where by Lupine may well be letting the product speak for its self etc......

    You didnt by chance run the political campaign for that shady guy Obama that is running the show in the US of A?
    Well, you were the one that brought it up and I just confirmed for you that I have experience in this area.

    Nope - didn't have anything to do with Obama either. That's the opposite case. Too much communication and weaker product.

    And, no, strategies where you let the product "speak" for itself are the ones that are almost always unsuccessful especially so in this age of 24/7 media. The "build it and they will come" strategies are so unsuccessful that they are big news if and when they work. Mostly, with that, you wind up standing on the corner with a handful of parts wondering what happened. Hope is not a strategy.

    J.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    ....And, no, strategies where you let the product "speak" for itself are the ones that are almost always unsuccessful especially so in this age of 24/7 media. The "build it and they will come" strategies are so unsuccessful that they are big news if and when they work. Mostly, with that, you wind up standing on the corner with a handful of parts wondering what happened. Hope is not a strategy....J.
    I agree, but patience and careful planning is. Have you ever played the game of poker? Sometimes timing is everything. Just because some fool ( not you ) ups the ante, the person holding the high cards doesn't need to over react. He can sit calmly and just wait out the hand till the final call is made and then clean up. He might lose a hand here or there but that itself might be how he draws in the prey. When the pot gets big enough he starts raising the stakes. Yes my friend, a company that is well run and funded can choose when or if they wish to make a move. I have no idea who runs Lupine or how successful they will be in the future but the German people did almost take over the world at one point......ummm...this now gives me pause for thought because I just bought a VW a couple months ago ( my first ).

    BlueMountain wrote:

    Let's wait till Interbike. If there is anything in the works, Lupine should not be saying anything at all this close to IB. Let's see who brings what and let the lights do the talking.
    Sounds like good strategy to me...

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    I still want to see two seca 700s up against one Betty 1400.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do
    I agree, but patience and careful planning is. Have you ever played the game of poker? Sometimes timing is everything. Just because some fool ( not you ) ups the ante, the person holding the high cards doesn't need to over react. He can sit calmly and just wait out the hand till the final call is made and then clean up. He might lose a hand here or there but that itself might be how he draws in the prey. When the pot gets big enough he starts raising the stakes. Yes my friend, a company that is well run and funded can choose when or if they wish to make a move. I have no idea who runs Lupine or how successful they will be in the future but the German people did almost take over the world at one point......ummm...this now gives me pause for thought because I just bought a VW a couple months ago ( my first ).

    BlueMountain wrote:



    Sounds like good strategy to me...
    Telling your story is part of executing your strategy. You don't develop a strategy in response to a tactical thrust by the competition - you execute your based on your current strategy and key messages - i.e. you respond tactically based on your strategy. The problem with most small companies is that they don't have a strategy and haven't done their key messaging so they can't execute in situations like this. Not responding is never a good tactic.

    But, we'll see.

    J.

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    Why John is the only person that is worried about Lupine while we (the Lupine light owners) don't care about numbers or if Lupine answers because we are 100% satisfied with our product???
    Just a funny thing
    trail experience speak for itself, I leave the direction of the company to the owners and I just enjoy a good product

    I'm out of here... this is lame and boring

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    It is not lame and boring to find out Lupine is dishonest about their products though it seems like blatant cognitive dissonance to say otherwise. Its great information for future purchases for Lupine or non-Lupine customers. I don't have a Lupine or LM a product, but it confirms my suspicion that the premium is for nothing significant performance-wise a common trend these days with inflated bike product pricing (a $400-600 top end fork of yesteryear is now a $800-1200 made overseas with cheaper processes). Its great that Asian companies are now selling more competitive lights to keep these greedy light companies honest.

    This test is good start. It would be great to settle on a useful measurement (pupil lumens) with standardized testing like EFBe does with bike frames/components. Who wants subjective non-sense like you find in magazines like MBA - give some useful objective information so consumers don't get lied like they often do with weight, light output, etc...

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    Steady on big man, pretty rich to just jump on a thread and say that Lupine are dishonest, sheesh, you really want to ensure you have all the facts before you jump in making very MATURE comments like that....

    The world is even scarier if there are types that have your train of thought, that see a thread and then believe it whole heartedly without see trial methodology etc etc etc..

    Each to there own though...


    Quote Originally Posted by syadasti
    It is not lame and boring to find out Lupine is dishonest about their products though it seems like blatant cognitive dissonance to say otherwise. Its great information for future purchases for Lupine or non-Lupine customers. I don't have a Lupine or LM a product, but it confirms my suspicion that the premium is for nothing significant performance-wise a common trend these days with inflated bike product pricing (a $400-600 top end fork of yesteryear is now a $800-1200 made overseas with cheaper processes). Its great that Asian companies are now selling more competitive lights to keep these greedy light companies honest.

    This test is good start. It would be great to settle on a useful measurement (pupil lumens) with standardized testing like EFBe does with bike frames/components. Who wants subjective non-sense like you find in magazines like MBA - give some useful objective information so consumers don't get lied like they often do with weight, light output, etc...
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    Steady on big man, pretty rich to just jump on a thread and say that Lupine are dishonest, sheesh, you really want to ensure you have all the facts before you jump in making very MATURE comments like that....
    It was confirmed elsewhere by independent testing as I posted, Lupine's numbers are not accurate:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?...3&postcount=81

    It makes sense given the real world versus the LED manufacturer in a lab and unless you are OK with a premium brand using the same claims as cheap light on DX, its dishonest. DIY and honest brands at least factor in optic and heat losses. Its pretty rich that owners can't admit their brand was blatantly dishonest but that is part of cognitive dissonance.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    Steady on big man, pretty rich to just jump on a thread and say that Lupine are dishonest, sheesh, you really want to ensure you have all the facts before you jump in making very MATURE comments like that....
    errr, yeah, thats why people are wanting Lupine to add their side of the story.
    And Hope, and Cygolite, and Niterider especially because they do claim to lumen test.

    One great thing about lupine...At least they don't claim the tesla is 900lm like most other P7 lights

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBW
    Why John is the only person that is worried about Lupine while we (the Lupine light owners) don't care about numbers or if Lupine answers because we are 100% satisfied with our product???
    Just a funny thing
    trail experience speak for itself, I leave the direction of the company to the owners and I just enjoy a good product

    I'm out of here... this is lame and boring
    I understand how difficult it is to be objective when you've spent a lot of money on something.

    J.

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    Someone who wants to buy a Porsche at Kia prices can be pretty bitter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    Someone who wants to buy a Porsche at Kia prices can be pretty bitter.
    Except German Lupine lights use Korean LEDs. In this case Korea has superior technology and Lupine is using the same inflated specs as super cheap light OEMs on DX, so only Lupine owners are fooled if you are saying non-owners are bitter. I have a dual Cree MCE light and quad Cree R2 both with Li-Po battery systems, so I'd be losing out going to Lupine both in performance and cost.
    Last edited by syadasti; 09-14-2009 at 06:46 AM.

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    I'm just saying that John sounds bitter; not all non-owners.

    Korean LEDs are great but that doesn't mean that all lights using them are as good as each other. There is far more to it that that or I'd be using a Dinotte or Magic Shine. If all someone worries about or focuses on in cars is horsepower or top speed or 0-60 #s, that is fine. I want far more that that. That is important, of course but not my complete package of what I want.

    Quote Originally Posted by syadasti
    Except German lights use Korean LEDs. In this case Korea has superior technology and Lupine is using the same inflated specs as super cheap light OEMs on DX, so only Lupine owners are fooled if you are saying non-owners are bitter. I have a dual Cree MCE light and quad Cree R2 both with Li-Po battery systems, so I'd be losing out going to Lupine both in performance and cost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    Korean LEDs are great but that doesn't mean that all lights using them are as good as each other.
    But they all have the same LED technological factors so bin output variations and optic and heat loss are well known to all designers. Even small light makers at least estimate this in their numbers if they can't measure them directly rather than falsely advertise.

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by syadasti
    Except German Lupine lights use Korean LEDs. In this case Korea has superior technology and Lupine is using the same inflated specs as super cheap light OEMs on DX, so only Lupine owners are fooled if you are saying non-owners are bitter. I have a dual Cree MCE light and quad Cree R2 both with Li-Po battery systems, so I'd be losing out going to Lupine both in performance and cost.
    Not fair comparing DIY systems to commercial

    My pal Cytoe has DIY that 3x as bright as my Betty/Wilma combo....but he knows how to do it and spent a lot of time and effort getting it right

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    Someone who wants to buy a Porsche at Kia prices can be pretty bitter.
    Actually, I have no intention of buying either. I chose to go the middle road (maybe a BMW or Audi sedan) with the new 1200L from Dinotte (should be here today). I have a lot of Dinotte batteries so that was a major factor for me. As well, the Dinotte 800L has compared pretty well in beamshots etc.. with the Wilma from Lupine but not at the premium. If the 800L at 800 lumens is similar to the Wilma at a claimed 920 lumens. My bet is that the 1200L is comparable to the Betty's claimed 1500 lumens. 1200L is $479 or so (only $40 more than the 800L), Betty is around $1000. Big difference, that's a lot of premium to sustain if there is not a lot of performance difference.

    Finally, the battery cost is more in line with what the actual cells cost. $50-75 for a new battery is about right. $200+ is a bit stiff.

    Money really isn't a big issue on this for me because I put a pretty high premium on my safety. The Dinotte offering, if good (I'll let you know) and other new high bright lights, and the studies that are coming out about the spec issues with Lupine are going to make for an interesting night riding season. I think this will drive down all prices for all of us for the high end.

    J.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Not fair comparing DIY systems to commercial

    My pal Cytoe has DIY that 3x as bright as my Betty/Wilma combo....but he knows how to do it and spent a lot of time and effort getting it right
    HIDTechnologies (3-4 Cree R2 lights) and BRlights (dual Cree MCE light) are commercial and featured on the MTBR shootout and/or reviewed:

    http://reviews.mtbr.com/blog/lights-...-measurements/

    http://reviews.mtbr.com/blog/br-lights-c2-k/

  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    As well, the Dinotte 800L has compared pretty well in beamshots etc.. with the Wilma from Lupine but not at the premium. If the 800L at 800 lumens is similar to the Wilma at a claimed 920 lumens. My bet is that the 1200L is comparable to the Betty's claimed 1500 lumens. 1200L is $479 or so (only $40 more than the 800L), Betty is around $1000. Big difference, that's a lot of premium to sustain if there is not a lot of performance difference.

    Finally, the battery cost is more in line with what the actual cells cost. $50-75 for a new battery is about right. $200+ is a bit stiff.

    J.
    Well, I used DiNotte in the past and they are great lights (I owened a 600 and a 200) but the blue color is horrible to pick up details of the trail (Lupine tint is superior), the DiNottes tend to overheat pretty easy if you are not moving fast (Lupine thermal conduction is far superior) and DiNotte batteries are not close in durability/reliability in MY experience.
    I remember one Texas summer where the 600L would go on protection if I would run it in medium intensity could only use low setting for technical slow riding which is no good.
    I was using the 600 with an ARC and then I sold the HID to get the Wilma... WOW! the color and beam is unreal.... you pick up every little detail and it is perceived as much more light. I used to love the 600L wide lens pattern but with the losses of the wide lens and the blue color, it was not enough for me to ride with... its difficult to explain but it was difficult to pick up the details and my eyes would get tired very easy

    DiNotte is a great product anyways, post a review of the 1200L

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    I have had none of the problems you describe and have ridden with them from below freezing to high 80's in temp. I will post a review when I play with it tonight (must got it in the mail).

    Either way, the differences to Lupine are getting smaller and smaller. Getting to be hard to justify that 2X premium on the Bettys especially if they can't answer the tests that are going around showing them with inflated specs.

    J.

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    I have had none of the problems you describe and have ridden with them from below freezing to high 80's in temp. I will post a review when I play with it tonight (must got it in the mail).

    Either way, the differences to Lupine are getting smaller and smaller. Getting to be hard to justify that 2X premium on the Bettys especially if they can't answer the tests that are going around showing them with inflated specs.

    J.
    for me it was in the 90's, below freezing no problems. I wouldn't get the Betty, I find a Wilma + Tesla a perfect combo
    Never liked their blueish color but at the time I had the DiNottes, I had to ride with them. Now with the Lupines, I love their color and I must ride with them!!
    Waiting anxiously for the time change and the cold weather
    Night riding is a blast

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    Examples of premiums:

    Lupine Betty compares to Dinotte 1200L - $1000 vs $479 or a whopping $109% premium.

    Lupine Wilma compares to Dinotte 800L - $589 vs $439 for a stiff 34% premium.

    Replacement batteries are another story. Lupine replacements are a lot more - multiple times as much.


    J.

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    John, I wish I lived close to you, so as you could have the opportunity to test ride with my Betty..... Make the trip to New Zealand and you can sample the Betty.....

    Again I hear you on your premiums over other lights, but as yet you still are basing your thoughts / opinions without having used a Lupine light.....

    Each to their own though...
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    Examples of premiums:

    Lupine Betty compares to Dinotte 1200L - $1000 vs $479 or a whopping $109% premium.

    Lupine Wilma compares to Dinotte 800L - $589 vs $439 for a stiff 34% premium.

    Replacement batteries are another story. Lupine replacements are a lot more - multiple times as much.

    J.
    I did test a 600L and an older Wilma for about two weeks, on the helmet (with a Tesla on the bar).
    The 600L is not as bright as the 800L (or the Wilma), but the 800L is out of the question for a helmet mount - and the 600L was bright enough for me, I had no problem with that. But still... if I had to choose between the two, I would choose the Wilma without a second thought - it is so good, it's worth the premium price. As a matter of fact, I finally convinced myself and sold my 600L to get a Wilma... I really didn't want to spend that much on a light, but I have no choice... and the 600L is a very good light.
    The Betty is another story - too heavy for the helmet, and "too bright", still very-very expensive. I guess Lupine will jump back on the train - maybe next year? - with a double / triple P7 ubermonster. I don't really understand them being so keen on their flashlight, but they probably know better and will sell a ton of those to the german police and army ;-)

    You are not right about the batteries though - check this out:
    http://www.open-light.de/en/
    For quality batteries these are very good prices - and they are in the EU, perfect for me ;-)
    (To compare to Dinotte, check the two-cell battery, Dinotte price is 50 USD, Open-light price is 40 EUR, which is less than 60 USD. That's not a big difference...)

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    I re-read the MTBR light reviews, and noticed something strange.
    According to the "ambient lux measurement" the Tesla was only a tiny bit behind the Seca 700 (51 vs 52).
    In the L&M marketing brochure, however, they say it is only 492 lumens instead of the 700, that the Seca achieves. That is a significant difference.
    Now... what does this mean? Maybe the lux-meter device measures more of "human-perceptible" light?

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    Quote Originally Posted by radirpok
    Now... what does this mean? Maybe the lux-meter device measures more of "human-perceptible" light?
    I think it means bouncing the light off the ceiling is a poor way to measure lumens.

    Really good would have been lux at 0, 5,10,15,20,30 degrees off axis.

  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    Examples of premiums:

    Lupine Betty compares to Dinotte 1200L - $1000 vs $479 or a whopping $109% premium.

    Lupine Wilma compares to Dinotte 800L - $589 vs $439 for a stiff 34% premium.

    Replacement batteries are another story. Lupine replacements are a lot more - multiple times as much.


    J.
    I'm starting to feel sorry for you John... who would spend so much time bashing a product if he doesn't want to buy? maybe you are jelous? maybe you want Lupine to drop their prices so you can afford the best? maybe you are justifiying yourself that they are not worth it in YOUR terms and point of view while in reality you would LOVE to have a Lupine in your stable?
    IMO you are just jelous
    Ride more, bash less and enjoy what you can afford

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBW
    I'm starting to feel sorry for you John... who would spend so much time bashing a product if he doesn't want to buy? maybe you are jelous? maybe you want Lupine to drop their prices so you can afford the best? maybe you are justifiying yourself that they are not worth it in YOUR terms and point of view while in reality you would LOVE to have a Lupine in your stable?
    IMO you are just jelous
    Ride more, bash less and enjoy what you can afford
    He's not jealous, he's an informed consumer rather than mindless consumer zombie that just buys whatever the most popular iProduct or McFood item is currently available. He didn't buy the Lupine because merely being a well known premium product does not mean anything especially in a nascent, crowded highly competitive changing market like LED bicycle lights. How is lying about product's performance, regardless of whether its common or not, good for the consumer?

    He also owns a 1up car rack. As someone who has owned almost all the popular tray style racks of various generation over the past 10 years (Sportworks, Thule, Yakima, Saris, and now the 1up), I can confirm he indeed made the correct, informed choice - the 1up is better than competition. There are other innovators on the horizon like Kuat, the status quo does not cut it forever...

    You can keep telling yourself whatever story that might make you feel better but it won't change the reality that Lupine is dishonest and overpriced. They must innovate or die especially at such a premium to the rest of the market.

  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by syadasti
    He's not jealous, he's an informed consumer rather than mindless consumer zombie that just buys whatever the most popular iProduct or McFood item is currently available. He didn't buy the Lupine because merely being a well known premium product does not mean anything especially in a nascent, crowded highly competitive changing market like LED bicycle lights. How is lying about product's performance, regardless of whether its common or not, good for the consumer?

    He also owns a 1up car rack. As someone who has owned almost all the popular tray style racks of various generation over the past 10 years (Sportworks, Thule, Yakima, Saris, and now the 1up), I can confirm he indeed made the correct, informed choice - the 1up is better than competition. There are other innovators on the horizon like Kuat, the status quo does not cut it forever...

    You can keep telling yourself whatever story that might make you feel better but it won't change the reality that Lupine is dishonest and overpriced. They must innovate or die especially at such a premium to the rest of the market.
    And yet still no Lupine owners have expressed their outrage or dissatisfaction.

    For me, this fact is the amusing part of this entire thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    And yet still no Lupine owners have expressed their outrage or dissatisfaction.

    For me, this fact is the amusing part of this entire thread.
    The performance is acceptable, but so are many others in the crowded competitive market without such a large premium. The fact that many companies inflate their ratings still does not benefit the consumer - its not acceptable.

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by syadasti
    The performance is acceptable, but so are many others in the crowded competitive market without such a large premium. The fact that many companies inflate their ratings still does not benefits the consumer - its not acceptable.
    There is still this assumption that their numbers are inflated - and that the inflated numbers are posted with intent to mislead. I'm not yet convinced either of these statements are truly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    And yet still no Lupine owners have expressed their outrage or dissatisfaction.

    For me, this fact is the amusing part of this entire thread.
    Squeaky, agree with you, this thread is now getting to be a joke..... I respect the opinions of these people posting, taking into account of their posts re the results of a test.

    But I am at a loss that the 2 making the most noise have not actually ridden on a trail at night with a Lupine, that alone says a lot.......

    Really beginning to sound a whole lot like sour grapes from John & Co.....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    lag...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    Squeaky, agree with you, this thread is now getting to be a joke..... I respect the opinions of these people posting, taking into account of their posts re the results of a test.

    But I am at a loss that the 2 making the most noise have not actually ridden on a trail at night with a Lupine, that alone says a lot.......

    Really beginning to sound a whole lot like sour grapes from John & Co.....
    It was two tests, one independent paid by LM and another independent test from a PhD student in Germany. I've ridden with a friend from Binghamton and he has a Wilma, so you'd be wrong. I've also been nightriding over a decade from analog halogen, to digital halogen, to digital with IRC halogen, HID, and now LEDs - I've seen the prices creep up but not always the quality. Me and many others have been burned by these companies, sometime they make up for their mistakes, sometimes they don't and you lose money and or the rest of the night riding season. The worst by far was Nightrider's transition in to digital/smart chargers - I've never considered them since. Its not nearly as bad but since Lupine's keeping quiet about this I see no reason to keep them on the list either considering how fiercely competitive the products are these days. Merely being a brand loyalist or having cognitive dissonance does not help anyone else.

    Also given the well known inherent limitations of LED systems, Lupine would know about bin variation, optic, and heat losses compared to laboratory numbers. The LED they used cannot perform as they claim in the real world from any light set maker period. The difference would be known and the deception intentional (the excuse could be [almost] everyone else is doing it but that not acceptable even for a child)
    Last edited by syadasti; 09-15-2009 at 01:54 PM.

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    I'd love to ride with a Lupine. However, I'm not going to buy one to find out. A loaner would be great!

    I am not bashing Lupine. I am, however, questioning their marketing acumen. I am putting out there that the facts are starting to move against them to an informed consumer making comparisons as they make the decision to buy a light. Note: That group would NOT be current Lupine owners, they already decided and would be as biased towards Lupine as those that chose another brand would be against Lupine. Neither of those groups are interesting from a perspective of forecasting what happens going forward.

    sydasti is right. Consumers who research products are going to be tripped up by the doubt that Lupine is a good value based on these studies as well. That is the whole point and why I wonder why Lupine has no answered. The possible choices include being very poor at marketing or that the studies in question are actually true.

    I do find it odd that they have not responded to the competition and the studies that are out there either by introducing a new product to "blow them away" or by explaining their advantages.

    Note on the battery link - those are not the OEM batteries (i.e. Lupine) correct? If so, the existence of them supports the notion that their batteries are high priced such that a pack maker could easily knock them off and introduce a product at a lower price. If Lupine offered them for a more reasonable price, there would not be any room for knock offs to find an economical way to sell third party packs.

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    John, agree with some points. BUT (always a but )

    You may well think I am biased against Lupine products, I assure you I am not. I like yourself have been hanging out for want of a better word with MTBR, I say it like it is, if a product is sh!t, I say so.... However, I am not complaining at all about the performance of my Lupine Betty. I am yet to see a light that has a patch on it. And that is being truthful, just saying it like it is for me.....

    We are yet to know if potential purchases will be pissed that Lupine have not replied, you are entitled to your opinions re their marketing acumen, like Lupine are entitled to not answer if that is part of their business / marketing acumen.....

    All the discussion is based on a couple of tests, of which if they are correct etc etc, I am yet to see any tests out in the field so to speak. This is where the action happens and the opinions that really matter happen, would you not agree?




    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    I'd love to ride with a Lupine. However, I'm not going to buy one to find out. A loaner would be great!

    I am not bashing Lupine. I am, however, questioning their marketing acumen. I am putting out there that the facts are starting to move against them to an informed consumer making comparisons as they make the decision to buy a light. Note: That group would NOT be current Lupine owners, they already decided and would be as biased towards Lupine as those that chose another brand would be against Lupine. Neither of those groups are interesting from a perspective of forecasting what happens going forward.

    sydasti is right. Consumers who research products are going to be tripped up by the doubt that Lupine is a good value based on these studies as well. That is the whole point and why I wonder why Lupine has no answered. The possible choices include being very poor at marketing or that the studies in question are actually true.

    I do find it odd that they have not responded to the competition and the studies that are out there either by introducing a new product to "blow them away" or by explaining their advantages.

    Note on the battery link - those are not the OEM batteries (i.e. Lupine) correct? If so, the existence of them supports the notion that their batteries are high priced such that a pack maker could easily knock them off and introduce a product at a lower price. If Lupine offered them for a more reasonable price, there would not be any room for knock offs to find an economical way to sell third party packs.
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    John, agree with some points. BUT (always a but )

    You may well think I am biased against Lupine products, I assure you I am not. I like yourself have been hanging out for want of a better word with MTBR, I say it like it is, if a product is sh!t, I say so.... However, I am not complaining at all about the performance of my Lupine Betty. I am yet to see a light that has a patch on it. And that is being truthful, just saying it like it is for me.....

    We are yet to know if potential purchases will be pissed that Lupine have not replied, you are entitled to your opinions re their marketing acumen, like Lupine are entitled to not answer if that is part of their business / marketing acumen.....

    All the discussion is based on a couple of tests, of which if they are correct etc etc, I am yet to see any tests out in the field so to speak. This is where the action happens and the opinions that really matter happen, would you not agree?
    No.

    In the world of marketing, the field that counts is the space between the ears of the next person deciding what to buy. It is their opinion that counts.

    Read "Marketing Warfare" by Al Reis and Jack Trout.

    J.

  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by syadasti
    He's not jealous, he's an informed consumer rather than mindless consumer zombie that just buys whatever the most popular iProduct or McFood item is currently available. He didn't buy the Lupine because merely being a well known premium product does not mean anything especially in a nascent, crowded highly competitive changing market like LED bicycle lights. How is lying about product's performance, regardless of whether its common or not, good for the consumer?

    He also owns a 1up car rack. As someone who has owned almost all the popular tray style racks of various generation over the past 10 years (Sportworks, Thule, Yakima, Saris, and now the 1up), I can confirm he indeed made the correct, informed choice - the 1up is better than competition. There are other innovators on the horizon like Kuat, the status quo does not cut it forever...

    You can keep telling yourself whatever story that might make you feel better but it won't change the reality that Lupine is dishonest and overpriced. They must innovate or die especially at such a premium to the rest of the market.
    this is hillarious!!!!!! He knows everything now because he bought the bike rack that YOU consider is the best.... and I'm an uninformed consumer for buying the best out there?
    are you 12 or his ghay lover?
    loosers, I will be enjoying my Lupines and don't give a rat's arse about tests.... I test my lights all year round and haven't see anything that I like more
    You keep talking about marketing laws and crap

    My lights are not blue, wont overheat in 90 degree weather, they are tiny and quality/craftmanship is equal to none.. they are not lights, they are pieces of engineering and art.... they are only for people that want the best and don't follow the masses

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    That is what L&M did...attacking a competitor instead of worrying about the customer as much. This is effective to a degree in my industry as well....it works especially well during launch mode and L&M is in late launch mode with their LED lights but it only works in certain cases.

    Will it translate to the bike-light business- probably not so I disagree there but there are lessons to be learned. The Seca is several steps behind the Betty (and who knows- maybe there will be a new Betty) but attacking a competitor is a very good approach when you can't compete on a product basis but you can get close and get some marketshare.

    Now, can someone spill the beans on the new Betty? I have light UGI and there are few places to go.

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    Nothing wrong with a Motobecane Ti frame, unless you have owned a Kent Ericksen, Carl Strong, or Steve Potts. Nothing wrong with American Classic hubs, unless you run Chris Kings. Damn heavy hubs, so much drag, not worth the price...make them cheaper...blah...blah...blah. So what do they do- keep raising the price and sell the heck out of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by BBW
    this is hillarious!!!!!! He knows everything now because he bought the bike rack that YOU consider is the best.... and I'm an uninformed consumer for buying the best out there?
    are you 12 or his ghay lover?
    loosers, I will be enjoying my Lupines and don't give a rat's arse about tests.... I test my lights all year round and haven't see anything that I like more
    You keep talking about marketing laws and crap

    My lights are not blue, wont overheat in 90 degree weather, they are tiny and quality/craftmanship is equal to none.. they are not lights, they are pieces of engineering and art.... they are only for people that want the best and don't follow the masses

  128. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBW
    this is hillarious!!!!!! He knows everything now because he bought the bike rack that YOU consider is the best.... and I'm an uninformed consumer for buying the best out there?
    are you 12 or his ghay lover?
    loosers, I will be enjoying my Lupines and don't give a rat's arse about tests.... I test my lights all year round and haven't see anything that I like more
    You keep talking about marketing laws and crap

    My lights are not blue, wont overheat in 90 degree weather, they are tiny and quality/craftmanship is equal to none.. they are not lights, they are pieces of engineering and art.... they are only for people that want the best and don't follow the masses
    Is it necessary for you to be such a jerk to people? I'd also suggest learning how to spell.

    J.

  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    Nothing wrong with a Motobecane Ti frame, unless you have owned a Kent Ericksen, Carl Strong, or Steve Potts. Nothing wrong with American Classic hubs, unless you run Chris Kings. Damn heavy hubs, so much drag, not worth the price...make them cheaper...blah...blah...blah. So what do they do- keep raising the price and sell the heck out of them.
    I believe that is what put Tag Heuer on the map in watches. They were trying to compete with Seiko and getting killed. Got a new CEO who doubled or tripled the price and generated "perceived" value. Poof - business problems over like that.

    Same deal with Coach purses - many are made in Asia and can be bought over there for $20-40. Add the coach tag and serial number, and they are now worth $270 to a consumer here. That is what is known as "brand equity." I buy purses like that for my wife when I'm in Asia on business. They last just as long as the high end Coach one she had and they are 25% of the price.

    That's a place that being an informed consumer can make a BIG difference.

    J.

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    You're giving me non-bike-product examples that you think don't work (but actually still do). Coach purses still sell well....maybe not to you. I am giving you concrete examples of ones that do work ones that are bike products. Be happy with your Magic Shine or whatever. They are just fine. Just don't expect Lupine to drop prices so you deem them worthy of the price. I'm sure they will do just fine without you, as they have through the Halogen and HID years.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    I believe that is what put Tag Heuer on the map in watches. They were trying to compete with Seiko and getting killed. Got a new CEO who doubled or tripled the price and generated "perceived" value. Poof - business problems over like that.

    Same deal with Coach purses - many are made in Asia and can be bought over there for $20-40. Add the coach tag and serial number, and they are now worth $270 to a consumer here. That is what is known as "brand equity." I buy purses like that for my wife when I'm in Asia on business. They last just as long as the high end Coach one she had and they are 25% of the price.

    That's a place that being an informed consumer can make a BIG difference.

    J.

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    Sooner or later, you are going to figure out that this is not an us vs them sort of thing and quit worrying about what you think I'm thinking (don't worry, I'll tell you). I don't care about Lupine, I'm just interested to see what their marketing plan is (or if they even have one).

    If they can pull off the brand equity play - good for them. However, that is much more difficult, as in next to impossible, with tech products vs fashion products. But, maybe Lupine is a fashion product - beats me.

    j.

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    Seems pretty obvious BBW is bent out shape. As I said, I have two lights that are both brighter than Wilma (Quad Cree R2 with swappable optics and a Dual Cree MCE, rather than Quad Seoul P4 in Wilma), have better Li-Po battery systems, and they cost less significant less too ($300-400). The premium small builders and DIY prefer the Cree, not less efficient Seoul LEDs Lupine (DX flashlights, Magicshine, etc) uses. Sorry for advocating for holding companies to the reality of LED technology...

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    Can't help but notice John is posting about how bright his new Dinotte 1200L "looks" in his driveway test shots... but no integrating sphere data?

    How can he possibly know if he's being 'ripped off' by unrealistic marketing claims of a light manufacturer if he doesn't have the 'objective' measurements that 'proves' the light will let him see well when he's on the trail? How can he possibly trust, heaven forbid, the very beamshots that he posted?

    P.S. No disrespect to Dinotte... I've recommended them many times and they provide some of the best commercial values in led lighting.

    But, you've got to wonder when you do the maths... Dinotte with 6 up leds x 200 lm per = 1200 claimed lumens... Lupine with 7 up leds x 200 lm per = 1400 lumens...

    Bueller.... Bueller...

    deafening silence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    I believe that is what put Tag Heuer on the map in watches. They were trying to compete with Seiko and getting killed. Got a new CEO who doubled or tripled the price and generated "perceived" value. Poof - business problems over like that.

    Same deal with Coach purses - many are made in Asia and can be bought over there for $20-40. Add the coach tag and serial number, and they are now worth $270 to a consumer here. That is what is known as "brand equity." I buy purses like that for my wife when I'm in Asia on business. They last just as long as the high end Coach one she had and they are 25% of the price.

    That's a place that being an informed consumer can make a BIG difference.

    J.
    John this verbal BS my friend has blown your cover! If you are in the marketing position you mentioned the other day and truly believe that the quality of a Coach purse made in Asia is as good quality of a true Coach, you are in dream land....... You see most people whom purchase fake handbags etc never really use them that much.... And for the record, Tag watches are crap, purely for ego types whom think they are cool watches.... Call me a snob, but Tags are BS watches......

    I have worked a lot in China like many on here have, John if you truly believe that fake watches are the same quality or handbags etc, I feel for you.....

    Best you get your butt on a plane and bring your bike to New Zealand and I will take you out and blow your light away with my Betty....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    You just don't get it, do you? I'm not advocating for a particular light - and there are a lot of good lights out there (yes, including Lupine). I bought a Dinotte 1200L because I had a ton of their batteries. It also happens to be a good light and it's about 1/3 the price of Betty with pretty much the same light output. All things being equal decision making and it's impact on marketing is the whole point of this thread.

    I agree - TAG watches are not great. They are vastly overpriced. The story of TAG is one that is studied in B-schools everywhere on the issue of perceived value. Go check it out. I'm not advocating for their watches, I'm just bringing both up as an example. An example of brand equity.

    Sorry. You're wrong about the purses too (of course, depending on where you buy them). You cannot distinguish them side by side. Been doing that for my wife for the last 15 years I've been traveling to North Asia on business. Been to the factories. She uses them for about 5 years before they wear out. It was another example of brand equity. The short case being are the knockoffs only one fifth as good ($50 vs $250)?

    I'll be right out on the next plane. Why don't we meet in Korea. I'll be there week after next. But some advice - don't give up your day job looking to do get into marketing anytime soon.

    J.

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    You just don't get it, do you? I'm not advocating for a particular light - and there are a lot of good lights out there (yes, including Lupine). I bought a Dinotte 1200L because I had a ton of their batteries. It also happens to be a good light and it's about 1/3 the price of Betty with pretty much the same light output. All things being equal decision making and it's impact on marketing is the whole point of this thread.

    I agree - TAG watches are not great. They are vastly overpriced. The story of TAG is one that is studied in B-schools everywhere on the issue of perceived value. Go check it out. I'm not advocating for their watches, I'm just bringing both up as an example. An example of brand equity.

    Sorry. You're wrong about the purses too (of course, depending on where you buy them). You cannot distinguish them side by side. Been doing that for my wife for the last 15 years I've been traveling to North Asia on business. Been to the factories. She uses them for about 5 years before they wear out. It was another example of brand equity. The short case being are the knockoffs only one fifth as good ($50 vs $250)?

    I'll be right out on the next plane. Why don't we meet in Korea. I'll be there week after next. But some advice - don't give up your day job looking to do get into marketing anytime soon.

    J.
    Your TAG story isn't exactly correct.

    Heuer was a premium Swiss watch maker for a number of years. They had a number of innovations and were the brand of choice for auto racers John Glenn wore one when he piloted the first US manned space flight to orbit the Earth.

    They they got wrapped up in the digital revolution in the 70s...which may be where your Seiko comment comes from.

    They were acquired by TAG (maker of high tech items like F1 tubrochagers) sometime in the 80s, thus becoming TAG Heuer.

    Whether or not you think their watches overpriced is totally irrelevant - the same can be said for most "luxury items." What makes a $50,000 Girard-Perregaux any better than a $20 Timex Ironman? Does the Timex tell time 1/1000 as well?

    What makes a $80,000 Porsche 911 any better than a $30,000 Ford Mustang? They both have similar 0-60 times.

    You speak of value and obviously know a lot about the subject - so you know that much of value is perception

    ps: BTW, I've owned a TAG 6000 series watch for a decade. I can't even begin to tell you how much I've tortured the thing with my various sporting endeavors. Yet it still looks and works like new. Great value for me. I doubt the same could be said about the Singapore made TAG ripoff that you can buy in Chinatown for $10

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    Maybe it is partly that but it is an old marketing term called "snob appeal" that along with superior products, has worked for thm for God know how many years. Seems like they cover both angles. Can we stop preaching college marketing and at least wait till Interbike to see what these players are bringing out. The some can get back to analyzing lumen claims and figuring out why the Walkman went away, while some of us move on to some new lights and some chilly night-riding.

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    flyer,

    grab your fancy schmancy overpriced underperforming lights and come join us tomorrow night. This one is worth the drive.

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    Squeaky - I agree with your characterization of the Tag story. I've also owned a couple of them. There is more value there more than a Seiko and raising their price helped consumers to understand that.

    One of the lessons of that experience was that if you don't value your own product, how would you expect a consumer to? Of course, and that is the point here, is that there must be value backing the product up. If the product is commoditized and you try and raise the price then you lose. So, to maintain the differentiation, you need to tell your story. Value is in the perception. Perception is created by telling your story through your key messages with accurate proof points.

    J.

  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by abacojeff
    Can't help but notice John is posting about how bright his new Dinotte 1200L "looks" in his driveway test shots... but no integrating sphere data?

    How can he possibly know if he's being 'ripped off' by unrealistic marketing claims of a light manufacturer if he doesn't have the 'objective' measurements that 'proves' the light will let him see well when he's on the trail? How can he possibly trust, heaven forbid, the very beamshots that he posted?

    P.S. No disrespect to Dinotte... I've recommended them many times and they provide some of the best commercial values in led lighting.

    But, you've got to wonder when you do the maths... Dinotte with 6 up leds x 200 lm per = 1200 claimed lumens... Lupine with 7 up leds x 200 lm per = 1400 lumens...

    Bueller.... Bueller...

    deafening silence.
    he feels better getting "ripped off" since he didn't pay the "premium"
    He ONLY spent 479$ for 1200lm (or so thinks )

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    I spent considerably less than that. I already had batteries and a charger.

    I'm glad you like your lights (actually, I don't really care - just being polite). But you miss the point that this isn't a me vs you on whose light is better. Your fascination with what I think is touching.

    J.

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    You know I'll try but only if I know that we can wear matching TAGs.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    flyer,

    grab your fancy schmancy overpriced underperforming lights and come join us tomorrow night. This one is worth the drive.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    You know I'll try but only if I know that we can wear matching TAGs.
    Heck, why stop there? Omega, Rolex, Tissot ....

    j.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    ps: BTW, I've owned a TAG 6000 series watch for a decade. I can't even begin to tell you how much I've tortured the thing with my various sporting endeavors. Yet it still looks and works like new. Great value for me. I doubt the same could be said about the Singapore made TAG ripoff that you can buy in Chinatown for $10
    Ha. This thread is hilarious.

    Reminds me that I have a Timex "Ironman" watch from circa 1989 that is still running strong after years of swim practice, running, cycling, etc. Only stopped to change batteries. I finally gave it to my son since I quit wearing a watch a year or so ago (I highly recommend ditching your watch).

    You guys can continue to talk in circles. I have nothing of value to add other than I lust after Lupine stuff, but being a value oriented person bought the Dinotte. (I also lust after BMWs, but drive a Honda (Vettes))

    It has nothing to do with affording any of the above, and everything to do with where, as a consumer, the bang for the buck equation falls for me personally. Generally, there is a point of diminishing returns with any consumer product where spending a lot more only gets you a little bit more performance, etc. I almost always go for that "bang for the buck" area of the curve where the performance improves slightly for a lot more dough. I don't need the best, just pretty close. (Except with Lenz. Nothing is better)
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    You guys can continue to talk in circles. I have nothing of value to add other than I lust after Lupine stuff, but being a value oriented person bought the Dinotte. (I also lust after BMWs, but drive a Honda (Vettes))
    Agree on the Vette comment.

    I traded mine this summer for something of superior "value"

    I'm fairly certain the lights on this are more powerful than Lupine, but I'll reserve judgement until I see the light meter tests.




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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel



    I see you downgraded performance for intangibles

    Beautiful none the less.

    There is a beautiful GT3 I see around here.

    I also got a new performance vehicle:

    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueMountain
    Let's wait till Interbike. If there is anything in the works, Lupine should not be saying anything at all this close to IB. Let's see who brings what and let the lights do the talking. L&M is not in the ARC days anymore. They have a lot of catching up to do. Hopefully, Nite Rider will also do some "talking" after that.
    Nah...If Lupine had new stuff, it would have been unveiled at Eurobike

  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    I see you downgraded performance for intangibles
    Depends what you mean by "downgraded performance"

    Power...no question vette has more

    Handling, quickness out of turns, refinement, lack of rattling/noise and general more fun to drive.....the little red number wins on all accounts.

    ps: I like your van - it compliments your timex motiff

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Depends what you mean by "downgraded performance"

    Power...no question vette has more

    Handling, quickness out of turns, refinement, lack of rattling/noise and general more fun to drive.....the little red number wins on all accounts.

    ps: I like your van - it compliments your timex motiff
    I'll be honest, I have not kept up with cars after being a huge, certifiable gear head for years and years. It blows my mind that I drive a mini (and maxi) van and don't really care. What happened? Once I finally had the money for the stuff I lusted for, I didn't really want it that much. Bikes are way more fun (to me).

    Anyway, in the old days, 10 years ago, Vettes were known as superb bang for buck performers mainly on racetracks where they routinely stomped much, much more expensive vehicles, but as you note, off the track, they er, um lacked refinement to say the least.

    The Porsche intangibles like you note above may not buy seconds on a track, but they sure make the experience nice. Sort of like Lupine lights I imagine. The best brakes and steering I ever experienced belonged to a Porsche. I am sure you enjoy that mightily. Good taste.

    It's not too good at carrying 12 people, but you can't have everything.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  150. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by crisillo
    Nah...If Lupine had new stuff, it would have been unveiled at Eurobike
    Cris,
    I'd have thought so too, but reliable sources tell me Lupine has upgrades to unveil for both Betty & Wilma at Interbike next week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Cris,
    I'd have thought so too, but reliable sources tell me Lupine has upgrades to unveil for both Betty & Wilma at Interbike next week.

    Cool! I won't say no to new shiny things

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Cris,
    I'd have thought so too, but reliable sources tell me Lupine has upgrades to unveil for both Betty & Wilma at Interbike next week.
    That would be cool.

    BTW, if the light testing on your new ride came out to be less than a Betty, would you trade it in?

    J.

  153. #153
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    17
    I did a comparison test in 2008. Light and Motion 13w HID ARC Ultra vs my own 3x Cree Q5.

    L&M was rated 680 lumens. 3x Cree Q5's I rated about 730 Lumens.

    See the results... the L&M 680Lm light is a lot dimmer than what I claimed 730Lm, which in real life should be almost the same to the eye.

    This is not about who's light is the best, it's about: How accurate was L&M's output claim then, and how accurate is it now...

    http://luxreader.blogspot.com/2008/0...on-photos.html

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