Sent email to Dinotte, got this response- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Sent email to Dinotte, got this response

    So I sent this email to Dinotte asking about compatibility.

    http://store.dinottelighting.com/spare-cables-li-ion-only-p52.aspx

    Hi,


    I was wondering if the Y adapter you sell here is compatible with the round-style connectors on Magicshine batteries and lights.


    For comparision, the Magicshine Y adapter looks like this:
    http://www.amazon.com/Magicshine-Mj-6018-Y-cable-Splitter-Headlamp/dp/B00S2R8LJ0



    Thanks, I think your adapter is more elegant and compact.
    And here's the response I got.

    magicshine products are dangerous and most of the parts are illegal. Please never use any of our components with anything they make. The batteries and chargers are a safety hazzard and you should discontinue use of them immediately.

    It's a dangerous product that I wouldn't want anything we make connected to it. That's all we need is a dangerous battery to catch fire and our product to be connected to it.


    Please never, never use our product with their dangerous, horrible, illegal product.


    Never ask us about dangerous products. Use of dangerous products is not only hazzardous to your safety, but to honest companies like ours.


    Perhaps you didn't know the products were dangerous and counterfeit. I'm sorry if this is new information.

    Thank you,


    DiNotte Lighting USA
    1 Merrill Drive
    Suite 10
    Hampton NH, 03842
    email: [email protected]
    Tel: (603) 929 0123


    Fax: (603 926 3597)
    Excuse my french, but WTF? I understand they are a competing brand and all, but no need to diss them.

  2. #2
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    Sounds like Monty Python wrote that for them. It's how I naturally took to reading it as it went on, and on, and I was laughing out loud at the end. Thanks !!

  3. #3
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    Wow, I just lost a lot of respect for this company. Illegal parts?

    Maybe the batteries were dangerous when they first came out, but that was sorted out a long time ago. I'm glad Magicshine came out with their lights. Granted they were a clone of another light, but they made mtb bike lights affordable to the masses. Their introduction placed a huge downward pressure on what people were willing to pay for lights. The days of having to spend $300 for one light are over, thankfully.

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    That's not just dissing. That's closer to slander.

    Perhaps several years ago when MS had the bad batch of batteries the email might have been closer to acceptable. But MS has improved, and now is considered a very good second tier manufacturer.

    Assuming the pack is the same voltage (and with four cells it probably does) just buy a Y cable and try it. They're only a couple of bucks.
    Last edited by Ian_C; 02-21-2015 at 04:12 AM.

  5. #5
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    Like I've mentioned before, the client service people associated with DiNotte do not like to discuss any technical aspects of their lamps, associated batteries and parts. Other than this shortcoming, if you want to discuss the DiNotte products and service to their own products you should have no problem getting your questions answered by their client service personal. However, they will not discuss compatibility issues with other products.

    If you dislike their attitude you can chose to buy another product and send them an email telling them that this kind of negative response will drive potential customers ( like you ) away. They've been doing this kind of stuff for years and while I can understand their hatred for the Chinese competition, no way should this stop them from answering the common questions of the potential customer with respect and courtesy.

    If you own a DiNotte lamp and want a cheaper alternative to the DiNotte battery you can buy a battery from Hunk Lee ( ebay vendor ). With the standard connectors he uses, those seem to work very well with the DiNotte lamps ( which require 7.4-8.4 volt batteries ) On the other hand the Hunk Lee batteries are not weather proof and do not include a mounting solution ( battery bag ). The DiNotte batteries however are sealed against weather and are designed to mount solidly on one of the frame tubes.

    Now if you just want a MS type "Y" connector you can buy those from Action LED or any other number of vendors. On the other hand if you want a "Y" connector compatible with the DiNotte products you might have to get that through DiNotte. The DiNotte Y connector might work with the MS lamps but chances are the connection might not be as solid. If you have MS type batteries or lamps get the MS type "Y" connectors.

    For the record, I have no axe to grind against DiNotte. I like their lamps and their products. Their service is second to none. I have bought from them before and I would so again. Attitude is something I can over-look as long as the product rates.

  6. #6
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    Cat-man-do...are there any companies that will make a custom weather-proof battery with the Dinotte plug? I really like their products (I have 3 XML3s), but they don't make a make a battery that provides the run times I'm looking for.

  7. #7
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    To OP: What did you expected, that they will say something like "yes, you can totally use cheaper competitors product instead of our more expensive stuff"!!!
    Yes, they need to work on their CS skills but I can understand them, although, I will not buy anything from them, not because of their CS but because I find absurdly to pay anything over 100$ for a bike-light.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by bosun120 View Post
    And here's the response I got.

  9. #9
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    This pretty much echos my impression of Dinotte as a company. I was a customer for a few years back in the early days (2007) and found them evasive to any technical questions about their products. Lights were much more expensive back in those days, and they had a lot less competition, but reading that email response tells me the same attitude prevails today.

  10. #10
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    Seems so. It's quite funny to see the text quoted by bosun120: I can't imagine better way to harm their own reputation. MagicShine should be happy!

  11. #11
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    Dinotte should be pissed, they put a lot of money into R&D and along comes a Chinese company, reverse engineers all of that work, and undercuts the original.
    It basically echoes so many counterfeit products, from Specialized frames to Cisco routers.
    With that said, I can't afford Dinotte products so I'm part of the problem.
    Niner Jet 9 RDO, Scalpel 29, XTC 650b, 04 Stumpjumper FSR Pro, Trek Rigid SS - No suspension, no gears....no problem

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by upstateSC-rider View Post
    Dinotte should be pissed, they put a lot of money into R&D and along comes a Chinese company, reverse engineers all of that work, and undercuts the original.
    Why would you say MagicShine reversed engineered Dinotte lights? Looking at the early MagicShine lights I don't see any particular brand being copied. The first Magicshine, which was a P7 LED based design, was pretty unique at the time... no more a copy of Dinotte than a Lupine or NiteRider or anyone else's really.

    Even if they are "pissed", responding to a customer in the manner that email displays is very bad form and comes off both childish and condescending.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwarwick View Post
    Why would you say MagicShine reversed engineered Dinotte lights? Looking at the early MagicShine lights I don't see any particular brand being copied. The first Magicshine, which was a P7 LED based design, was pretty unique at the time... no more a copy of Dinotte than a Lupine or NiteRider or anyone else's really.
    When first MagicShine MJ-808 appeared, it was widely considered a copy of Lupine Tesla - maybe not exact, but pretty close one:

    Sent email to Dinotte, got this response-dsc_1392.jpg

    AFAIK, no similar products from DiNotte ever existed...

    Lupine Tesla 4 - Mtbr.com

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Archie- View Post
    When first MagicShine MJ-808 appeared, it was widely considered a copy of Lupine Tesla - maybe not exact, but pretty close one:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    AFAIK, no similar products from DiNotte ever existed...
    Forgot about the Tesla and agree it does appear to be a close copy.

    DiNotte's designs probably haven't ever been popular enough for the Chinese to take notice and bother copying I suspect.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brisco Dog View Post
    Cat-man-do...are there any companies that will make a custom weather-proof battery with the Dinotte plug? I really like their products (I have 3 XML3s), but they don't make a make a battery that provides the run times I'm looking for.
    If it were me and I wanted the same: What I would do is buy a very nice 4 or 6 cell battery, probably from MTBrevolution ...then I would cut off the female connector off an old DiNotte battery that I no longer needed. I would then use that connector and a male MS type connector to make an adapter for batteries using the MS type connectors.
    ( * MS type connectors can be bought simply by buying a MS extension cord, available almost everywhere )

    The Xeccon built batteries that are sold by MTBrevolution are very nice and very weather proof. They use either Samsung or Panasonic cells, depending on what you buy. They also are sold as either "hard shell", ( similar to DiNotte ) or soft shell. I like the soft shell. The SShells are encased in a rubber shell and include a very nice pouch for mounting to the stem or frame of your bike. If you've got an old DiNotte battery you don't mind losing and you have some elementary DIY skills, making an adapter is not that hard to do. ( * Don't bother asking DiNotte for an adapter, they'll just spit in your eye... )

    Another option I've heard people do is to buy a Hunk Lee ( custom built ) battery of choice....( they use Samsung, Sanyo, Panasonic...your choice ) and then weather proof it yourself. Not really hard to do. Some use a product called , "Plastic Dip" but others like me just use either self-adhesive Silcone tape or just plain Duct tape. (The Hunk Lee battery will come wrapped in shrink wrap. ) Some people have bought cheap Chinese batteries ( sold in the rubber housing ) and then used that rubber housing for the HLee battery. Yep, that can work too but you will still need a good battery bag to mount it to the bike. That's one of the reasons I like the Xeccon batteries.

    If you decide to go the Hunk Lee route you will need to contact him on his ebay link and tell him what you want. The standard length of wire he uses on his batteries is not long. If you want longer you can specify the length of wire you need. The standard connector is what he usually supplies with his batteries. ( *I have a HL 2 cell battery and the female standard HL connector works perfectly with my old DiNotte 600L ) Just make sure he doesn't send you one with the Solarstorm type connector. Tell him you want the connector without the screw on sleeve. If you can, supply a photo of the female connector being used. Hunk Lee batteries come from China. Expect a 16-22 day wait. On the other hand most of the Xeccon stuff ships in days, depending on what they have in their USA shipping stock.

    If you already have a good battery bag I'd go HLee. Oh, almost forgot to mention; Another option is to buy just the HLee female connectors and once again make an adapter using that and one of the MS connectors. Lots of choices.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by upstateSC-rider View Post
    Dinotte should be pissed, they put a lot of money into R&D and along comes a Chinese company, reverse engineers all of that work, and undercuts the original.
    It basically echoes so many counterfeit products, from Specialized frames to Cisco routers.
    With that said, I can't afford Dinotte products so I'm part of the problem.
    Of course they are pissed but being one of the first to do something doesn't give you the right to act like a jerk to potential buyers. When you go into small business you have to realize going in that there is going to be competition at some point. That just goes without saying. It makes no sense to act like a jack as* just because a potential customer is asking about compatibility issues with other competing products.

    Many many years ago ( at the dawn of the industrial revolution ) someone patented the rights to build automobiles. When people like Henry Ford came along and tried to build their own cars the powers that be took them to court. Henry Ford argued that while you could patent a particular design you couldn't patent a basic idea. It took a while for the courts to agree but in a landmark decision the courts eventually ruled in favor of Henry Ford. That decision is what allowed almost anyone with a job to be able to afford an automobile. Without Henry Ford quite possibly some of us might still ride horses to work.

    Competition is what makes free enterprise and capitalism work. The people who benefit from this are the people like you and me who can't afford $400-$700 for a bike light.

  17. #17
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    I thought the response was funny, given the question.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by upstateSC-rider View Post
    Dinotte should be pissed, they put a lot of money into R&D and along comes a Chinese company, reverse engineers all of that work, and undercuts the original.
    They also left Geomangear hanging to clean up the battery mess.

  19. #19
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    To be honest, I would have expected a simple "No". Didn't expect this strongly worded letter.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit View Post
    They also left Geomangear hanging to clean up the battery mess.
    To be clear, not just "left hanging," they put Geoman out of business. Killed them flat dead because of the warranty claims that Magicshine refused to support and then hid behind Chinese law to preserve their company.

    It's also worthy to note that one of the reasons for the warranty recall was some pretty serious fires that were documented here in MTBR complete with pictures.

    So, while Dinotte's letter is poorly written, it is factual and if it's not then it's up to Magicshine to prove they have become a responsible company. In other words, it's pretty clear that Magicshine is not a responsible company and expecting them to be otherwise absent any evidence that their products have improved and attempts to make things right with those they damaged, then that statement is factual and stands. The burden of proof belongs to Magicshine to demonstrate why they are not the deadbeats they have been in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Archie- View Post
    Seems so. It's quite funny to see the text quoted by bosun120: I can't imagine better way to harm their own reputation. MagicShine should be happy!
    Dinotte has a long reputation for making solid and reliable lights. If I were them, I'd be deeply concerned about customers using Magicshine chargers and batteries with their products too. If there were a big problem, guess who gets the blame (or at least part of it)? Given Magicshine's track record, I'd be scared if someone did that too if I were Dinotte. The only points they miss is for being able to write a clean email to a one time question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_C View Post
    That's not just dissing. That's closer to slander.

    Perhaps several years ago when MS had the bad batch of batteries the email might have been closer to acceptable. But MS has improved, and now is considered a very good second tier manufacturer.
    It's not slander if it's true. There is a public track record and performance that makes this arguably a true statement. The fact remains, they made a dangerous product and refused to stand behind it. It doesn't get much worse in consumer products than that.

    Good company if run by the same people? Leopards don't change their spots. Geomangear is still dead as after covering up Magicshine's screwed up designs for their chargers/batteries that caught fire. Magicshine refused to honor warranty claims for faulty products that were dangerous. They have a lot more to do before they become a "very good second tier manufacturer." At this point, if they have another problem, you could probably assume just about the same behavior. Why would it be any different? Defending Magicshine over Dinotte seems kind of backwards to me.


    J.

  21. #21
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    This is sad. I would have preferred to have let sleeping dogs lie. In particular, I would have preferred to have let Geoman rest in peace. His voluntary effort to replace the Magicshine batteries that he sold was his own doing. There was no offical recall on the batteries from Magicshine and MS continued to sell the original product for a number of years.

    Geoman's efforts were honorable but what he did to replace all the batteries that he sold was his own doing and his own personal choice. Personally I don't try to figure out what the intentions of people are when they know they are dying so I won't belittle his memory by criticizing his actions. I don't have knowledge of all the personal circumstances involved ( including his illness ) that he was dealing with so I'll leave it at that.

    The cheap batteries that were supplied with the original MS light sets continued to be used by the thousands of people who bought them. As with any cheap electrical product there are potential problems. Magicshine, the first company to produce an affordable bike light set eventually chose to improve their product, and so it goes. Life goes on. I have no personal love or hatred of the Magicshine products. Let Geoman and the memory of what he did in the last years of his life rest in peace.

  22. #22
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    That reply from Dinotte is a bit over the top when a simple no would have sufficed. I would reply back to them and say please don't spazz out when a potential customer asks an honest question.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    To be clear, not just "left hanging," they put Geoman out of business. Killed them flat dead because of the warranty claims that Magicshine refused to support and then hid behind Chinese law to preserve their company.

    It's also worthy to note that one of the reasons for the warranty recall was some pretty serious fires that were documented here in MTBR complete with pictures.

    So, while Dinotte's letter is poorly written, it is factual and if it's not then it's up to Magicshine to prove they have become a responsible company. In other words, it's pretty clear that Magicshine is not a responsible company and expecting them to be otherwise absent any evidence that their products have improved and attempts to make things right with those they damaged, then that statement is factual and stands. The burden of proof belongs to Magicshine to demonstrate why they are not the deadbeats they have been in the past.



    Dinotte has a long reputation for making solid and reliable lights. If I were them, I'd be deeply concerned about customers using Magicshine chargers and batteries with their products too. If there were a big problem, guess who gets the blame (or at least part of it)? Given Magicshine's track record, I'd be scared if someone did that too if I were Dinotte. The only points they miss is for being able to write a clean email to a one time question.



    It's not slander if it's true. There is a public track record and performance that makes this arguably a true statement. The fact remains, they made a dangerous product and refused to stand behind it. It doesn't get much worse in consumer products than that.

    Good company if run by the same people? Leopards don't change their spots. Geomangear is still dead as after covering up Magicshine's screwed up designs for their chargers/batteries that caught fire. Magicshine refused to honor warranty claims for faulty products that were dangerous. They have a lot more to do before they become a "very good second tier manufacturer." At this point, if they have another problem, you could probably assume just about the same behavior. Why would it be any different? Defending Magicshine over Dinotte seems kind of backwards to me.


    J.


    Agree.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    This is sad. I would have preferred to have let sleeping dogs lie. In particular, I would have preferred to have let Geoman rest in peace. His voluntary effort to replace the Magicshine batteries that he sold was his own doing. There was no offical recall on the batteries from Magicshine and MS continued to sell the original product for a number of years.

    Geoman's efforts were honorable but what he did to replace all the batteries that he sold was his own doing and his own personal choice. Personally I don't try to figure out what the intentions of people are when they know they are dying so I won't belittle his memory by criticizing his actions. I don't have knowledge of all the personal circumstances involved ( including his illness ) that he was dealing with so I'll leave it at that.

    The cheap batteries that were supplied with the original MS light sets continued to be used by the thousands of people who bought them. As with any cheap electrical product there are potential problems. Magicshine, the first company to produce an affordable bike light set eventually chose to improve their product, and so it goes. Life goes on. I have no personal love or hatred of the Magicshine products. Let Geoman and the memory of what he did in the last years of his life rest in peace.
    Well said,
    from my understanding also, it was jay who originally picked up on the (up and coming) magicshine product line and made certain revisions that ensured a higher quality product, ie better wire, thermal paste etc. At the time, ordering from geoman was a good way to ensure you were getting the best pick as the quality was a bit hit or miss at first. It seems that he held true to his philosophy of ensuring top quality and went above and beyond with the battery situation as no official recall was ever involved on the Magicshine product, geoman went out of their way to do this to ensure that the product they sold was safe for all its users. IMO, he should have some extra karma points with the man upstairs

  25. #25
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    My understanding, but I could be wrong, was that a CPSC recall was coming. Geoman was the sales presence in the USA and had some level of liability for any problems. Magicshine would not stand behind their product and Geoman wound up holding the bag. I appreciate the work to fix the problem but ultimately I don't believe they had a choice. Really a sad tale.

    I looked into selling some OEM products a few years ago that would have been imported from Taiwan. There are product liability insurance policies you can buy that cover those instances and they vary by product (and therefore by risk). They are not particularly expensive but they generally rely on some level of mfg warranty. Geoman likely didn't have one or it didn't cover this eventuality or the battery/charger combo or Magicshine reneged on their warranty (most likely circumstance).

    No matter what, Magicshine had an obligation to stand behind their product, and they did not. They were perfectly willing to let Geoman take the fall for it. Probably worth remembering if you buy their product. In reality, that's kind of scary.

    J.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    My understanding, but I could be wrong, was that a CPSC recall was coming. Geoman was the sales presence in the USA and had some level of liability for any problems. Magicshine would not stand behind their product and Geoman wound up holding the bag. I appreciate the work to fix the problem but ultimately I don't believe they had a choice. Really a sad tale.

    I looked into selling some OEM products a few years ago that would have been imported from Taiwan. There are product liability insurance policies you can buy that cover those instances and they vary by product (and therefore by risk). They are not particularly expensive but they generally rely on some level of mfg warranty. Geoman likely didn't have one or it didn't cover this eventuality or the battery/charger combo or Magicshine reneged on their warranty (most likely circumstance).

    No matter what, Magicshine had an obligation to stand behind their product, and they did not. They were perfectly willing to let Geoman take the fall for it. Probably worth remembering if you buy their product. In reality, that's kind of scary.

    J.
    On the CPSC website there is a listing of the "voluntary" recall done by Geomangear. What doesn't make sense is that if you do a recall all you have to do is issue the recall ( contact the people you sold to ) and then offer a refund if the people decide to return the product. If you recall something you can't sell it anymore unless you address the problem with the product.

    That said the product continued to be sold through other vendors so no official ban was put on the product by the CPSC. Battery failures can happen and there can be many potential things that can cause them including the buyers failure to handle the product properly. With this in mind it makes perfect sense why the product was not officially banned. In order to ban something there has to be a clear indication that there is a fault in the design of the product. Keep in mind, no one in the industry would of wanted a ban on "ALL" Li-ion batteries. Lucky for us, that didn't happen. In retrospect when you consider what happened with that airline incident, it's clear that when something doesn't go right sometimes the powers that be can over-react.

    What you said about the insurance thing is true. I would think most people who own private businesses would have insurance just in case someone decides to sue you for whatever reason. Could be GM didn't have insurance, got scared and over-reacted. Why he decided to replace the batteries on his own I have no idea. Maybe it was cheaper that way, who knows?

  27. #27
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    Cat, I see your point but there are politics around a recall too. Regulatory agencies come to businesses all the time and "encourage" them to do the "right thing". It saves on legal expenses for both sides.

    But more importantly, it's just not a rational business decision to bankrupt your business for the purpose of accepting someone else's responsibility. I'm sure they had a significant safety liability and I'm sure they got considerable legal advice before they did this.

    Even more, had they not essentially been forced to do this, they could have just terminated the "good will" recall when it became apparent continuing would destroy their business. The only real reason to continue was because not continuing was worse.

    I believe that at the time Geoman was the US distributor. In other words, everyone else was getting their stuff from Magicshine through Geoman. But again, this is all back in time and I may not be correct. Geoman had, to my recollection, a closer relationship with Magicshine. That would explain the differences in behavior by different sellers.

    It still remains that the problem was Magicshine's to resolve and they did not.

    J.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    ....I'm sure they had a significant safety liability and I'm sure they got considerable legal advice before they did this.
    You mean you're "assuming" they had significant safety liability. You can't say you're "Sure" because you really don't know and since neither of us had a personal relationship with the man, I think perhaps we need to be a bit more careful in what can be assumed.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    ..Even more, had they not essentially been forced to do this, they could have just terminated the "good will" recall when it became apparent continuing would destroy their business. The only real reason to continue was because not continuing was worse.
    While this sounds like a plausible explanation once again we really can't know what was going on behind the scenes and for the most part we are both guessing by what seems to make sense to each of us personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    ..I believe that at the time Geoman was the US distributor. In other words, everyone else was getting their stuff from Magicshine through Geoman. But again, this is all back in time and I may not be correct. Geoman had, to my recollection, a closer relationship with Magicshine. That would explain the differences in behavior by different sellers.
    Not sure myself if Geoman was the only US distributor at the time but it was a long time ago so I really don't know. I do know that at some point Brightstone Sports became another distributor but I'm not sure if they were selling MagicShine products at the same time as GM.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    ..It still remains that the problem was Magicshine's to resolve and they did not. J.
    In saying this you have to be assuming a lot of things that neither you ( nor I ) really know for sure. The only thing we really know is that the original product had problems, both with the lamp and with the battery. To what extent these problems persisted is any ones guess. If there was a failure with the MS product and the product was covered by warranty, I don't recall anyone not getting a replacement ( provided by the Magicshine warranty ).

    The original battery though only had maybe a 90 day warranty. In retrospect, that's not providing much of a guarantee but if you bought one you knew what the warranty was before buying ( provided you were knowledgeable enough to look into such things before buying ).

    John, while you might quite possibly be right in assuming MagicShine is the "Bad Guy" in this story, personally I'm not convinced that we have all the facts that would justify making MagicShine the scapegoat for one mans' business failure. Personally, I just don't think that it's appropriate under the circumstance. Now if you were his personal financial advisor or lawyer then by all means I would gladly stand aside to be corrected.

    Getting back to the original Thread topic:

    To me it just seems the DiNotte Customer service approach needs to change when it comes to answering customer ( or potential customer ) questions regarding compatibility and technical issues with their products.
    To continue to answer customer questions in such a snide fashion is almost unforgivable. I'm not asking them to like the competition. I'm just asking them to be polite and more factual to the folks who are just asking honest questions.

  29. #29
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    Cat, I understand where you want to go with this but it's really weak.

    If none of those things occurred - no liability, did not get legal advice etc.. - but still chose to go out and make good on another company's liability and responsibility to the point of bankruptcy is just simply irrational. Only a complete idiot would do that. If they had that big of an idiocy problem, it's hard to believe they ever would have gotten a business started in the first place.

    I don't think they were idiots, but I think they got tagged with Magicshine's liability problem. That's the only thing that makes sense and is the typical scam of an Asian mfg with a warranty problem - happens every day. The only rational explanation is that it a worse choice to not recall than it was to recall and possibly lose the business.

    That's a frequent tactic of Asian companies to avoid responsibility. I see it every day in my day job (I do a lot of business in Asia - in fact, I'm going there monday on business). I've had it happen multiple times to me in the 23 years I've been doing business there. It's virtually impossible to recover damages - as Geomangear discovered.

    Magicshine had an obligation to stand up and support their product and they did not. Play the substitution game - suppose an American company did this? It's amazing to me what people will rationalize in the name of "cheap."

    J.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    Cat, I understand where you want to go with this but it's really weak...

    Magicshine had an obligation to stand up and support their product and they did not. Play the substitution game - suppose an American company did this? It's amazing to me what people will rationalize in the name of "cheap."

    J.
    John, I would be inclined to agree with you 100% , IF..the CPSC had issued the recall themselves and had put a nationwide ban on the original product. At that point the Magic shine company would have been responsible and would have had to make restitution.

    That said would they have actually made restitution if things had gone that way?...I'm almost sure that you would say they wouldn't. As for me I don't think I would be holding my breath waiting for them to make restitution but on the other hand I'm not willing to completely dismiss the possibility that they might have made restitution in that given situation.

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    If probably didn't matter if the CPSC had forced, issued or suggested the recall if they uncovered a problem that put them in a tough position legally. That's the problem with a litigious society.

    Being a long time business owner and knowing how completely one's personal net worth (as in everything you own) is tied up in the business or tied to the business, it's likely that the business failing had deep substantial personal financial impacts along the lines of if the business fails, so often do one's personal finances. Banks require personal financial guarantees to even substantial sized businesses that are private. That means houses and personal financial investments (stocks and bonds) are often tied up or pledged against the bank loans. If the business goes down and the loan gets called, plan on moving out of your house.

    With a business that requires inventory like Geomangear, if there is growth or even flat sales, it's a certainty that a line of credit is necessary. I'm hoping it's not true, but I'm pretty certain this had some deep personal impacts for the owners.

    So that's why I think it's unlikely that they would have done this had they not *had* to do it and if they hadn't been left holding the bag. We know Magicshine didn't stand behind it for sure. It was all Geoman.

    They did hold in there to the end. They deserve a lot of credit for that. It takes a lot of courage and personal guts to ride the ship down especially when it ultimately wasn't your fault. That had to be a special kind of torture.

    J.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    ...It probably didn't matter if the CPSC had forced, issued or suggested the recall if they uncovered a problem that put them in a tough position legally. That's the problem with a litigious society....
    Yes, I can agree with that. My gut tells me that he was probably worried about being sued. Even though there is no way to know what he was actually reacting to I figure it's the most plausible reason.

    In a way it makes sense. If you are worried about liability and think you might get sued, I can think of no better way to show yourself as a responsible business person than to take major steps to remedy a potential dangerous situation, in particular a situation that might get you sued and tie up a lot of your personal assets. I think we can both agree those steps were taken. Heck , for that matter it's quite possible that he "was" being sued and that it was his hope that making some quick changes could help lower the final settlement.

    Anyway, I don't know the extent of Geoman's financial involvement in the company he owned and how much of his personal assets were actually tied into his business. If he indeed had his personal property involved in the financing of the company than undoubtedly that could help explain a lot of his actions ( especially if he was indeed either being sued or being threatened with a lawsuit. )

    While I don't own a private business myself I do understand some of the potential problems that go along with owning a small business. Insurance is a "must" because like you indicated, "We live in a litigious society". Always someone looking to get rich on someone else's dime. Personally, I've always favored legislation that would put limits on certain types of civil lawsuits and the payouts that are awarded, particularly when it comes to small businesses. ( i.e., tort law reform )

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    Agreed.

    It's a lot of speculation of course, but the reality was it was a magicshine battery that Geoman was recalling and they said publicly that Magicshine wasn't backing them up. So I think we can take that as fact.

    Obviously that ultimately had disastrous financial impacts as they also publicly announced. I believe them because they were trying to make things right although the actual moving parts of all of that is speculative and really doesn't matter. That also tells me that caution is due when dealing with Magicshine because they are not a trustworthy company. If they have a serious problem, with their low regard for their customers, they will not make it right.

    In general, I try to not ever do business with companies like that. I don't want them to succeed when following business practices like that and I don't want to get caught in their messes.

    J.

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    So, if I email Dinotte and tell them that I have the updated and reliable Geomangear battery (which I still do), they won't fling so much spittle my way?

    Apparently, the lights are so dangerous, one "z" in hazard wouldn't suffice.....

    And "illegal?" Since when?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhxChem View Post
    So, if I email Dinotte and tell them that I have the updated and reliable Geomangear battery (which I still do), they won't fling so much spittle my way?

    Apparently, the lights are so dangerous, one "z" in hazard wouldn't suffice.....

    And "illegal?" Since when?
    Let's just say everyone's experience is different. Just how odd the reply might be would depend on how you ask your question and who is answering it. Once when I asked DiNotte about battery compatibility I was told that, *.. "they weren't in the business to make other companies money and that they only recommend their batteries for their own products". ( *this was years ago so this is not a verbatim quote ).

    Your Geoman battery can work with the DiNotte lamps but not without some modding from one of the connectors.

    Anyway, if you don't like their attitude you don't have to buy their products. Nonetheless, if you like their products I wouldn't let "the attitude" issue be the deciding factor on whether or not to buy one of their products. Of course not all people think like me though.

  36. #36
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    Let me get back to the original post. This is much ado about nothing or to be specific, an over zealous response from an employee from a great company who really needs to calm down. Deal with it.

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    Sent email to Dinotte, got this response

    I just noticed this on the Dinotte site:

    Responsible Practices Guarantee (please read)
    As always, DiNotte uses batteries that meet full legal requirements for transport ensuring maximum safety for you as a user. Many brands ignore this and other safety requirements and only dinotte gives you the assurance all products are driven well within range ensuring the product will be reliable, performance will be repeatable, and the product will be safe. Do not accept any less than full assurance from the manufacturer (many manufacturers and reviewers don't even know these requirements exist) - We take the guess work out for you with our responsible practices guarantee.

    http://store.dinottelighting.com/din...ight-p174.aspx

    While I don't know anything about, "legal requirements for transport," but I'm guessing that's what the writer of the email is basing his/her "illegal" claim on.
    -Chris

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurkeVT View Post
    I just noticed this on the Dinotte site:

    Responsible Practices Guarantee (please read)
    As always, DiNotte uses batteries that meet full legal requirements for transport ensuring maximum safety for you as a user. Many brands ignore this and other safety requirements and only dinotte gives you the assurance all products are driven well within range ensuring the product will be reliable, performance will be repeatable, and the product will be safe. Do not accept any less than full assurance from the manufacturer (many manufacturers and reviewers don't even know these requirements exist) - We take the guess work out for you with our responsible practices guarantee.

    DiNotte XML-3 Headlight ? DiNotte Lighting USA Online Store

    While I don't know anything about, "legal requirements for transport," but I'm guessing that's what the writer of the email is basing his/her "illegal" claim on.
    About the underlined; I'm not quite sure what they are referring to but if my memory serves me I do remember a law that was passed ( in the USA ) sometime ago that required shippers of Li-ion batteries ( within the USA ) to use special flame-retardant pouches to ship batteries. If this is what they are referring to they are probably right. Of course DiNotte sells only batteries encased in a plastic shell which of course is another safety feature. That said I personally don't look at any of this as , " A reason to tout others as selling unsafe batteries".

    About what I highlighted; Yes, I think DiNotte has made clear over the years that they try to pay more attention to the thermal regulation of their lamps than most manufactures. However this policy has not always produced the most satisfying results for every lamp that they sell. I seem to recall that they used to sell a dual-triple lamp. When this lamp was first released I remember thinking at the time that the output ( judging from beam photos ) was not that impressive. Later I believe DiNotte re-released the same lamp with a slighter higher output. That said I no longer see that lamp sold on their website.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by pigmode View Post
    Let me get back to the original post. This is much ado about nothing or to be specific, an over zealous response from an employee from a great company who really needs to calm down. Deal with it.
    Actually, they'll have to deal with it since it's their employee (assuming they still work there). Add this to "what not to do" when dealing with customers.

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    I agree, it's not a big deal. And I like dealing with employees that have a passion for their company. An employer who has a passionate employee is one who has a big asset. Sometimes they need some aiming but in general they are much more of an asset than it isn't.

    And, if what they wrote is true, then it doesn't matter does it?

    J.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    I agree, it's not a big deal. And I like dealing with employees that have a passion for their company. An employer who has a passionate employee is one who has a big asset. Sometimes they need some aiming but in general they are much more of an asset than it isn't.

    And, if what they wrote is true, then it doesn't matter does it?

    J.
    This thought has given me a place to pause. I've been an employee of a large company that is listed in the "Fortune 500" for over thirty years. Several years ago I left a client a scathing note detailing how I felt they were letting their customers down by how they were handling their operation. ( sorry, can't give more detail on that. ) Later, this got me in hot water with my boss but the thing was, I was right in principle but wrong in how I handled the problem. I guess my passion got the best of me for a moment but I learned a lesson. When it comes to dealing with customers who are doing stupid things or asking for things they shouldn't be asking for, you still have to be respectful and be very careful in how you communicate what you believe to be the correct procedure. You don't make friends or get customers to listen by being crass. ( Been there, done that. )

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    Sure, of course, and it doesn't mean that there isn't internal discipline applied to that employee either. I'd take the employee who cares enough to do something (even if it's crass) than one who doesn't care and turns away any day.

    Either way, in this particular instance, it's not a big deal and it's very likely that Dinotte has a valid argument that they can make that backs up what this guy said. Notice the word "valid argument" which means others may not agree with it but the point is not meritless.

    J.

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    I had the same type of response from Dinotte when dealing with them. All I was interested in was the return policy in case I didn't like the light. The ass who I communicated with treated me like a child who knew nothing about lights or batteries. Informing me that now since I will be for the first time using quality products, I would have no reason to return them. Off course I sent their stuff back. I think they make very good quality products at a very reasonable price, but they are not keeping up with the competition, and their sales/service department sucks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbean View Post
    Informing me that now since I will be for the first time using quality products, I would have no reason to return them.
    Amazing!

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    Bizarre customer service. I like my Dinotte light, but if I had a conversation like this with them before I bought I would have taken my money elsewhere.

    Too many good options out there to get talked down to by customer service reps.

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    Yeah, I could not believe my eyes when I read it. I played nice just to make sure I get my money refunded. They sell terrific lights at a great price, but treating customers like this is a no-no.

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    It's not like they have a boiler room full of customer service people talking to thousands of customers. They are a small business and it's probably one person who is not responding correctly. I would think that warrants cutting them some slack if it doesn't improve. I'm sure they read this forum (especially Rob at Dinotte) and someone is getting is training.

    Also worthy to make sure that one isn't the "ass" on the other end either.....

    J.

  48. #48
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    I think I might still have the emails and can post it if you want to check who's the ass.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbean View Post
    I think I might still have the emails and can post it if you want to check who's the ass.
    I don't really care - don't have a dog in that fight. Nor am I saying that you were acting inappropriately.

    As a business owner though, I can tell you that a lot of customers do think they are being reasonable when that maybe isn't the case. I'm sure we've all had experiences like that. Often, when I've gotten into situations like this, I've found that neither my employee nor the customer were clean on the deal. So it's worth it to keep that always in the back of one's mind.

    What almost always works in situations like this with a small business, is to politely escalate it quickly to the owner (if you're not polite, then I'd back up my employee in terminating the call with you). They really want to hear about issues like this because they are pretty invested in things coming out right compared to a manager at a large company to whom it is just a job. It's also that much easier to get to someone who cares and the path to resolution is generally shorter.

    I've had a lot of dealings with Dinotte in the past (not in the last year or so, though) and found them to be very direct, very helpful and I like their products. I thought it's great to have access to the design engineers at times and we've had some good conversations about certain product features. When I've had some complicated questions related to product usage (mounts), they were very helpful and generous.

    J.

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